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New York - Orthodox Organization To NY Lawamkers: Our Yeshivas Need Child Protection Laws

Published on: July 24, 2011 12:05 PM
By: VIN News Staff
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New York - The Jewish Board of Advocates for Children, a nonprofit group which, for several years, has been calling for strong child protection laws that would govern yeshivas and all nonpublic schools, has sent a letter to leading New York state legislators urging them to address the grave problem of child abuse.

The letter, delivered Friday, July 22, 2011, calls attention to the heinous abduction and homicide of Leiby Kletzky, and states that it is “healthy and productive” for all New Yorkers, in the wake of this tragedy, to join together so that we can create the “safest environment possible for all children.”

JBAC President Elliot Pasik, an attorney, cites about one dozen child protection laws which protect public school children, but not children who attend religious and private schools.  He calls for the explicit extension of these laws to the nonpublic schools.

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For example:

*  only public school children are required to receive instruction designed to prevent abduction;

*  only public school administrators are required to complete coursework in identifying and reporting child abuse or maltreatment;

*  only public schools are required to establish and implement written policies necessary to safeguard the life and health of children, and to prevent abuse;

*  only public school employees are required to report public school-based child abuse to government child protection authorities;

*  only public schools are required to fingerprint and obtain criminal histories of their employees.

The letter was sent to Senate Majority Leader Dean Skelos, Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, and the chairs of the Education Committee and the Committee on Children in both legislative houses.

In May 2007, the Rabbinical Council of America, working with JBAC, enacted a Resolution endorsing the extension of all public school child protection laws to the nonpublic schools.  The RCA is an organization of about 1,000 orthodox rabbis.

The full text of the letter can be read here.  PDF



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Read Comments (71)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Jul 24, 2011 at 12:13 PM Track5 Says:

I hope they approve this protections law for our yeshiva's
And schools.

2

 Jul 24, 2011 at 12:50 PM DemsBeBabies Says:

If this is so important, why isn't this organization not going to the yeshivas and day schools to implement these rules? Why does everything need to be legislated from a bunch of bafoons in city hall out albany?

3

 Jul 24, 2011 at 01:02 PM PeterChamor Says:

Right on.

4

 Jul 24, 2011 at 01:05 PM gabe_e12 Says:

Mr. Pasik quotes unspecified studies which show "the majority of SEX crimes go unreported.." Then states, as if it's a fact, "Leiby Kletsky, for example". Mr. Pasik, where do you get the info to state, as fact, that Leiby's abduction was a sex crime? Especially with all the authorities insisting there was no indication of any sexual abuse, nor is the presumed murderer charged with any sex crime? Is this how you create the multitude of "sex crimes which go unreported"? By presuming such crimes have occurred, even when evidence shows they haven't? It is precisely this attitude, of presumption that a sex crime has occurred, despite evidence to the contrary, that has nonpublic schools wary of legislation mandating reporting. If there were no fear of potential witch hunts, a phenomenon which dishonesty facilitates, our mosdos hatorah would support the legislation you propose.

5

 Jul 24, 2011 at 01:21 PM Insider Says:

Dear gabe_e12,
Abuse is abuse. Sexual abause is only one type of abuse that children suffer.
By the way, this is the organization that is supported by Rabbi Yosef Blau, Mashgiach of Yeshiva Yitzcak Elchonon (YU), Rabbi Gershon Tennenbaum, Chairman of the Igud Horabonim; Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz, Agudas Yisreol, and many, many more.

6

 Jul 24, 2011 at 01:33 PM real protection Says:

I hope they should approve such a bill, but not our yeshives should be the one on top of it.
the government should be the one to make sure that our children are getting the top protection what's possible, not it should be another way for the mosdes hatorah to earn money to cover their budget and our children won't be protected.

7

 Jul 24, 2011 at 01:46 PM Leon Zacharowicz MD Says:

Elliot Pasik has waged a tireless campaign to protect the children of our community, and all children who attend non-public schools. He and his colleagues have over the years approached numerous private schools, including yeshivas and girls' high schools, only to be rebuffed.

Commonsense measures such as educating our children with regard to child safety and the need to notify a parent or responsible adult of any suspicious incident. Public schools have an age-appropriate curriculum to teach child safety, including fire safety, dealing with strangers and those who seek to touch a kid inappropriately, how to refuse and seek help. Our schools can and should adapt these proven curricula, but strangely have by and large neglected or even refused to do so.

It is unbelievable that our schools by and large do not do criminal background checks on the custodians, groundskeepers, etc, let alone the various teachers of secular and religious studies. The tests take seconds and within 48 hours a school can be notified if the applicant has a criminal record.

Elliot and VIN deserve our thanks for seeking to protect our kids.

Parents should insist on these minimal safety measures!

8

 Jul 24, 2011 at 01:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
DemsBeBabies Says:

If this is so important, why isn't this organization not going to the yeshivas and day schools to implement these rules? Why does everything need to be legislated from a bunch of bafoons in city hall out albany?

You think the yeshivas are going to listen to JBAC? Yeshivas will only comply with these rules if they are laws. One reason is they don't care and another is it will cost them money for backround checks etc.

9

 Jul 24, 2011 at 01:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
gabe_e12 Says:

Mr. Pasik quotes unspecified studies which show "the majority of SEX crimes go unreported.." Then states, as if it's a fact, "Leiby Kletsky, for example". Mr. Pasik, where do you get the info to state, as fact, that Leiby's abduction was a sex crime? Especially with all the authorities insisting there was no indication of any sexual abuse, nor is the presumed murderer charged with any sex crime? Is this how you create the multitude of "sex crimes which go unreported"? By presuming such crimes have occurred, even when evidence shows they haven't? It is precisely this attitude, of presumption that a sex crime has occurred, despite evidence to the contrary, that has nonpublic schools wary of legislation mandating reporting. If there were no fear of potential witch hunts, a phenomenon which dishonesty facilitates, our mosdos hatorah would support the legislation you propose.

Where did he state this? I didn't see this anywhere in the letter. Also putting aside the fact that Aron killed Leiby z"l, is it normal for a 35 year old to abduct an 8 year old child? I think not. Maybe he didn't get the chance to molest him as he panicked and then murdered him.

10

 Jul 24, 2011 at 02:20 PM Curious Says:

Reply to #7  
Leon Zacharowicz MD Says:

Elliot Pasik has waged a tireless campaign to protect the children of our community, and all children who attend non-public schools. He and his colleagues have over the years approached numerous private schools, including yeshivas and girls' high schools, only to be rebuffed.

Commonsense measures such as educating our children with regard to child safety and the need to notify a parent or responsible adult of any suspicious incident. Public schools have an age-appropriate curriculum to teach child safety, including fire safety, dealing with strangers and those who seek to touch a kid inappropriately, how to refuse and seek help. Our schools can and should adapt these proven curricula, but strangely have by and large neglected or even refused to do so.

It is unbelievable that our schools by and large do not do criminal background checks on the custodians, groundskeepers, etc, let alone the various teachers of secular and religious studies. The tests take seconds and within 48 hours a school can be notified if the applicant has a criminal record.

Elliot and VIN deserve our thanks for seeking to protect our kids.

Parents should insist on these minimal safety measures!

"He and his colleagues have over the years approached numerous private schools, including yeshivas and girls' high schools, only to be rebuffed."

Can you be more specific please? I would really like to know.

11

 Jul 24, 2011 at 02:23 PM DemsBeBabies Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

You think the yeshivas are going to listen to JBAC? Yeshivas will only comply with these rules if they are laws. One reason is they don't care and another is it will cost them money for backround checks etc.

Then the parent body of said yeshivos will need to deal with the consequences. The answer is NEVER more legislation!

12

 Jul 24, 2011 at 02:39 PM Anonymous Says:

They are calling themselves an orthodox entity, by definition that would mean they would have someone to consult on halachic issues. Does anyone know who that would be.

13

 Jul 24, 2011 at 02:56 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

Where did he state this? I didn't see this anywhere in the letter. Also putting aside the fact that Aron killed Leiby z"l, is it normal for a 35 year old to abduct an 8 year old child? I think not. Maybe he didn't get the chance to molest him as he panicked and then murdered him.

Here we go again. Go back to sleep so your thoughts (dreams) will be recognized as full of devorim beteilim. There has been much effort to find some connection to molestation, and every avenue has found nothing. The issue to highlight here is general safety, including strangers. Certainly the safe touch issue needs to be a part of the education given to every child. I wholeheartedly agree that there should be 100% parity in safety matters between public and non-public schools. The laws excluding private schools from the minimum standards have been senseless. The background checks, and even the community based database should all be utilized to insure that those with questionable (or worse) backgrounds will be unacceptable in our schools. Just drop the fiction about molestation in the recent tragedy, and I agree to all. The abduction was bizarre, but so, it seems, was the murderer. Must we make assumptions, especially when those hypotheses have been tested and unproven?

14

 Jul 24, 2011 at 03:07 PM Curious Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

They are calling themselves an orthodox entity, by definition that would mean they would have someone to consult on halachic issues. Does anyone know who that would be.

Rabbi Blau is no longer involved. Look at the Letterhead.

15

 Jul 24, 2011 at 03:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

They are calling themselves an orthodox entity, by definition that would mean they would have someone to consult on halachic issues. Does anyone know who that would be.

Click on the link for the full letter and on the left side all the rabbis are listed

16

 Jul 24, 2011 at 03:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
DemsBeBabies Says:

Then the parent body of said yeshivos will need to deal with the consequences. The answer is NEVER more legislation!

Deal with the consequences? You are obviously not a parent. The consequences are children getting molested because obvious preventive measures were not taken.

17

 Jul 24, 2011 at 03:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
Anonymous Says:

Here we go again. Go back to sleep so your thoughts (dreams) will be recognized as full of devorim beteilim. There has been much effort to find some connection to molestation, and every avenue has found nothing. The issue to highlight here is general safety, including strangers. Certainly the safe touch issue needs to be a part of the education given to every child. I wholeheartedly agree that there should be 100% parity in safety matters between public and non-public schools. The laws excluding private schools from the minimum standards have been senseless. The background checks, and even the community based database should all be utilized to insure that those with questionable (or worse) backgrounds will be unacceptable in our schools. Just drop the fiction about molestation in the recent tragedy, and I agree to all. The abduction was bizarre, but so, it seems, was the murderer. Must we make assumptions, especially when those hypotheses have been tested and unproven?

I think you should wake up from your sleep because obviously you seem to have misunderstood my comment. I did not claim he molested him. I believe he would have if he had not panicked. Why else would a strange, odd and single man abduct an 8 year old child?

18

 Jul 24, 2011 at 04:04 PM Butterfly Says:

A few years ago, a neighbor of mine showed me a pamphlet given out by the High Schools to every parent. It shows the picture and description of all child abusers who live in your neighborhood!! If the public high schools can receive it. Even the principal of all yeshivas and all teachers should be aware of this and should notify any parent who has children who may live nearby!! An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!!

19

 Jul 24, 2011 at 04:21 PM gabe_e12 Says:

Reply to #7  
Leon Zacharowicz MD Says:

Elliot Pasik has waged a tireless campaign to protect the children of our community, and all children who attend non-public schools. He and his colleagues have over the years approached numerous private schools, including yeshivas and girls' high schools, only to be rebuffed.

Commonsense measures such as educating our children with regard to child safety and the need to notify a parent or responsible adult of any suspicious incident. Public schools have an age-appropriate curriculum to teach child safety, including fire safety, dealing with strangers and those who seek to touch a kid inappropriately, how to refuse and seek help. Our schools can and should adapt these proven curricula, but strangely have by and large neglected or even refused to do so.

It is unbelievable that our schools by and large do not do criminal background checks on the custodians, groundskeepers, etc, let alone the various teachers of secular and religious studies. The tests take seconds and within 48 hours a school can be notified if the applicant has a criminal record.

Elliot and VIN deserve our thanks for seeking to protect our kids.

Parents should insist on these minimal safety measures!

Dr. Zach,
The Netziv, opted to close down the "Mother of all Yeshivos", Yeshivas Volozhin, rather than to allow Government mandated curriculum to be taught. Regardless of your inability to comprehend the dangers of this, our leaders do. You wouldn't want those who work in the chinuch field to advise your patients as to how you should treat them, I'll thank you to for granting them similar courtesy.
Fyi-there was a time in our history where we invited secular power to address our internal strife, during the times of the 2nd bais hamikdash, waring factions of the dcendents of the chashmanoim asked the romans to help them settle their dispute. We know how that concluded.

20

 Jul 24, 2011 at 04:26 PM Sherree Says:

" Must we make assumptions, especially when those hypotheses have been tested and unproven?" Not really. Just not revealed to the general public. Please explain, since you now so much, what he was doing with the box of children's clothing and who they actually belonged to. And where was Leiby's clothes. No one seemed to mention that.

21

 Jul 24, 2011 at 04:27 PM Curious Says:

Reply to #15  
Anonymous Says:

Click on the link for the full letter and on the left side all the rabbis are listed

Yup, Rabbi Blau is no longer listed. When and why did that happen? Did he resign? Since when? His is a huge advocate for abuse victims. What does this mean?

22

 Jul 24, 2011 at 04:28 PM Sherree Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

I think you should wake up from your sleep because obviously you seem to have misunderstood my comment. I did not claim he molested him. I believe he would have if he had not panicked. Why else would a strange, odd and single man abduct an 8 year old child?

No one can prove he was NOT molested. There does NOT have to be any fluids on the child's body in order for him to have been molested.

23

 Jul 24, 2011 at 04:42 PM gabe_e12 Says:

I would really like to know how many of the 4 members of the JBAC's Rabbinical Committee are elementary, or even high school level mechanchim.
Shouldn't an organization that has labeled itself as the protector of our children, at least have ONE rabbinical board member that is a mechanech in a mosed hachinuch? How can one claim to know what's best for our mosdos when one has zero experience in that area?
Instead of dictating to our mosdos what cures they should implement, why not work hand in hand with them for methods that will work, AND meet their needs? Why does Mr. Pasik have an 'us against them' mentality? Why does it have to be His way or the highway?

24

 Jul 24, 2011 at 04:48 PM Sherree Says:

Reply to #19  
gabe_e12 Says:

Dr. Zach,
The Netziv, opted to close down the "Mother of all Yeshivos", Yeshivas Volozhin, rather than to allow Government mandated curriculum to be taught. Regardless of your inability to comprehend the dangers of this, our leaders do. You wouldn't want those who work in the chinuch field to advise your patients as to how you should treat them, I'll thank you to for granting them similar courtesy.
Fyi-there was a time in our history where we invited secular power to address our internal strife, during the times of the 2nd bais hamikdash, waring factions of the dcendents of the chashmanoim asked the romans to help them settle their dispute. We know how that concluded.

"You wouldn't want those who work in the chinuch field to advise your patients as to how you should treat them"

Firstly, the good doctor follows the Torah in HOW he treats his patience as well as the government and the rules they set.

Secondly, OUR children deserve ALL the protection that every public school child receives and not one single ounce less!

25

 Jul 24, 2011 at 04:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

I think you should wake up from your sleep because obviously you seem to have misunderstood my comment. I did not claim he molested him. I believe he would have if he had not panicked. Why else would a strange, odd and single man abduct an 8 year old child?

Again, your assumptions. Would haves cannot be proven. And there is still no shred of evidence that this suspect ever tended toward anything of the sort. You're still better off asleep.

26

 Jul 24, 2011 at 04:51 PM DemsBeBabies Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

Deal with the consequences? You are obviously not a parent. The consequences are children getting molested because obvious preventive measures were not taken.

I am a parent. I send my children to a school that I trust. I talk to my children about how no adult can touch them in places covered by a bathing suit (as per rav yanky horowitz, and many rabbonim before him). this rush to the government to legislate has got to stop. its nonsense! if people really wanted these measures, they would stop sending their children to mosdos that has these issues of hiding pedophiles. just because some lawyer started and organization and bamboozled some rabbis into signing on to legislation "HE WROTE" does not mean its a good idea. it also dosnt mean its a bad idea. it just means its an idea. i for one and not keen on states mandating private institutions, whether they be schools, businesses, etc, do anything that some possy of self proclaimed do gooders want.

27

 Jul 24, 2011 at 04:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
Sherree Says:

" Must we make assumptions, especially when those hypotheses have been tested and unproven?" Not really. Just not revealed to the general public. Please explain, since you now so much, what he was doing with the box of children's clothing and who they actually belonged to. And where was Leiby's clothes. No one seemed to mention that.

So far, it seems those were his old clothes that had been stuffed in the attic. There was no statement about Leiby's clothes.

The extreme efforts in doing armchair detective work is of dubious value. It seems our suspect was poor in intellect & maturity, and one would need to think at that level to guess what he was thinking. Meanwhile, many questions, but NO ANSWERS.

28

 Jul 24, 2011 at 05:17 PM Anonymous Says:

I realize that many yeshiva educators are not certified, but all teachers who are certified in NYS have been fingerprinted and have taken the child abuse detection training.

29

 Jul 24, 2011 at 05:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
Butterfly Says:

A few years ago, a neighbor of mine showed me a pamphlet given out by the High Schools to every parent. It shows the picture and description of all child abusers who live in your neighborhood!! If the public high schools can receive it. Even the principal of all yeshivas and all teachers should be aware of this and should notify any parent who has children who may live nearby!! An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!!

Every city and state has a public registry of sex offenders. It is each parents responsibility to utilize the public information to make themselves aware of who lives in their area, regardless of which school their children may attend. In the city I live in I frequently check the registry to familiarize myself with the faces of registered sex offenders who live near me. I especially do this when the weather gets nice, as you would be surprised at how many registered live moments from parks where our children frequent. One should not wait for a pamphlet to be handed out to make themselves aware ..... That being said, it does not help when we have monsters in our midst that go unreported. If shomrim in NY (we do not have shomrim in my city) have access to serious suggestive evidence of some local monsters and keep that list to only themselves, and in addition those ppl are never reported, tried and convicted so that they may become registered by the city and state, then shomrim are culpable for any child that may ever be hurt by that person. So are the Rabbeim who discouraged reporting of that person. In those case, you can not be made aware of what one does not want u to know

30

 Jul 24, 2011 at 05:37 PM unbelvbl Says:

Reply to #4  
gabe_e12 Says:

Mr. Pasik quotes unspecified studies which show "the majority of SEX crimes go unreported.." Then states, as if it's a fact, "Leiby Kletsky, for example". Mr. Pasik, where do you get the info to state, as fact, that Leiby's abduction was a sex crime? Especially with all the authorities insisting there was no indication of any sexual abuse, nor is the presumed murderer charged with any sex crime? Is this how you create the multitude of "sex crimes which go unreported"? By presuming such crimes have occurred, even when evidence shows they haven't? It is precisely this attitude, of presumption that a sex crime has occurred, despite evidence to the contrary, that has nonpublic schools wary of legislation mandating reporting. If there were no fear of potential witch hunts, a phenomenon which dishonesty facilitates, our mosdos hatorah would support the legislation you propose.

Levy Aron ym"sh is a pedophile, and he may have abducted Lieby o"h just because of his sexual fascination with kids. The abduction itself makes it a sex crime even thou Lieby o"h may have not been molested, because when a pedophile abducts a child, it is for a sexual purpose.

I do agree with that there are cases where people’s lives were destroyed because of irresponsible witch-hunts, and we should be very careful about signing up with the government.

31

 Jul 24, 2011 at 05:47 PM Leon Zacharowicz MD Says:

Reply to #19  
gabe_e12 Says:

Dr. Zach,
The Netziv, opted to close down the "Mother of all Yeshivos", Yeshivas Volozhin, rather than to allow Government mandated curriculum to be taught. Regardless of your inability to comprehend the dangers of this, our leaders do. You wouldn't want those who work in the chinuch field to advise your patients as to how you should treat them, I'll thank you to for granting them similar courtesy.
Fyi-there was a time in our history where we invited secular power to address our internal strife, during the times of the 2nd bais hamikdash, waring factions of the dcendents of the chashmanoim asked the romans to help them settle their dispute. We know how that concluded.

I'm not sure how you reached some of your conclusions. I didn't write that I am in favor of government regulation of yeshivas.

Regarding the problem of child safety in our communities, there are proven methods that greatly lessen the chance of children getting injured from fire (orthodox Jewish children are the number one group in burn units), to lessen the chance of getting lost, etc -- and to lessen the chance of child abuse including child sexual abuse. These can be modified for use in our schools.

Having evaluated and treated many children victimized by sexual abuse who subsequently developed severe psychiatric problems, and as someone whose professional duty entails being an advocate for children, I have a duty to help stem the scourge of abuse.

I don't operate without close communication with major poskim.
Anyone who knows my record knows that..

In a post not published here, I actually mentioned a summer program involving Gedolei Eretz Yisrael organized before this tragedy.

This is a matter of life and death -- spiritual, psychological and sometimes physical. I rely on piskei halacha of major poskim in Eretz Yisrael in advocating for safety of our children.

32

 Jul 24, 2011 at 06:00 PM Leon Zacharowicz MD Says:

I find it troubling that someone, hiding behind the cloak of anonymity, would criticize those who are trying to protect our children.

I do not personally agree with everything Elliot Pasik does, but the man has dedicated over a decade of his life to help protect our kids. Along with others, including former victims of abuse, Elliot approached numerous schools and organizations in our kehillah to try to institute child safety measures.

Nothing happened.

Meanwhile, the cases of molestation have continued to pile up. We're talking about a large number of victims, certainly in the hundreds, maybe even higher.

Each pedophile who molests typically molests dozens if not hundreds of kids before he is detected. If not stopped, he will almost certainly go on to molest hundreds more.

To compare a suggestion that our schools adapt a proven method to stem abuse to the attempt by the Russian government to limit Torah teaching to 3 or so hours daily is a bit much, for an anonymous contributor, as is the comparison to the warring factions at the time before the destruction of the Temple.

It is time for our mosdos to implement child safety programs.

33

 Jul 24, 2011 at 06:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
Sherree Says:

No one can prove he was NOT molested. There does NOT have to be any fluids on the child's body in order for him to have been molested.

We also don't know that he never spied on Americans, robbed banks, or was involved in insider trading. Not a single thread of "evidence" points to anything in the realm of molestation. You're preoccupied to the level of delusion. In that case, arguing logic or fact is futile. This horrific crime was not molestation but gruesome murder. We need to teach children safety. Yes, personal safety (like safe touch) is part of that. But quit imposing your delusions on us all. I refuse to give further responses. It is tiring, and you'll never face reality anyway.

34

 Jul 24, 2011 at 06:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
Curious Says:

Yup, Rabbi Blau is no longer listed. When and why did that happen? Did he resign? Since when? His is a huge advocate for abuse victims. What does this mean?

Maybe he is still as dedicated to the cause as always, but now questions the underlying mission of the group. If so, he is not the first. Meanwhile, someone still needs to verify who is the halachic authority that approves the actions and mission of JBAC. Any ideas?

35

 Jul 24, 2011 at 07:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #26  
DemsBeBabies Says:

I am a parent. I send my children to a school that I trust. I talk to my children about how no adult can touch them in places covered by a bathing suit (as per rav yanky horowitz, and many rabbonim before him). this rush to the government to legislate has got to stop. its nonsense! if people really wanted these measures, they would stop sending their children to mosdos that has these issues of hiding pedophiles. just because some lawyer started and organization and bamboozled some rabbis into signing on to legislation "HE WROTE" does not mean its a good idea. it also dosnt mean its a bad idea. it just means its an idea. i for one and not keen on states mandating private institutions, whether they be schools, businesses, etc, do anything that some possy of self proclaimed do gooders want.

Maybe send yourself to college.

36

 Jul 24, 2011 at 07:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #25  
Anonymous Says:

Again, your assumptions. Would haves cannot be proven. And there is still no shred of evidence that this suspect ever tended toward anything of the sort. You're still better off asleep.

Two months ago if Levi Aron approached you and offered to babysit your children would you say yes?

37

 Jul 24, 2011 at 07:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Not asking yeshivas to do more than public schools. We pay thousands of dollars in tuition. The least our children should get is the same security that public school kids get. People here are making this out to be more than it really is.

38

 Jul 24, 2011 at 08:55 PM Curious Says:

Reply to #34  
Anonymous Says:

Maybe he is still as dedicated to the cause as always, but now questions the underlying mission of the group. If so, he is not the first. Meanwhile, someone still needs to verify who is the halachic authority that approves the actions and mission of JBAC. Any ideas?

I don't recognize anyone on the list.

39

 Jul 24, 2011 at 08:43 PM Sherree Says:

Reply to #27  
Anonymous Says:

So far, it seems those were his old clothes that had been stuffed in the attic. There was no statement about Leiby's clothes.

The extreme efforts in doing armchair detective work is of dubious value. It seems our suspect was poor in intellect & maturity, and one would need to think at that level to guess what he was thinking. Meanwhile, many questions, but NO ANSWERS.

Really? Where did it say that those were a 35 year olds, old children's clothes? I don't recall seeing that in the papers, internet or hearing that as a statement on the news from any police report. Do you still have YOUR old children's clothing. Did your mother keep your old pre-teen clothing in your attic?

40

 Jul 24, 2011 at 08:53 PM Sherree Says:

Reply to #33  
Anonymous Says:

We also don't know that he never spied on Americans, robbed banks, or was involved in insider trading. Not a single thread of "evidence" points to anything in the realm of molestation. You're preoccupied to the level of delusion. In that case, arguing logic or fact is futile. This horrific crime was not molestation but gruesome murder. We need to teach children safety. Yes, personal safety (like safe touch) is part of that. But quit imposing your delusions on us all. I refuse to give further responses. It is tiring, and you'll never face reality anyway.

It is impossible to speak logic to some people especially those who just wish to spout nonsense. It is delusional to even think that the purpose of luring Leiby was to murder him. NO ONE believes that for one minute. You are entitled to your own opinion for whatever it is worth. However, if you were involved at all in the issue of child abuse and molestation you would be able to recognize the signs and they are all here. All the professionals involved in this issue see the signs and recognize it. WE are all in agreement. I don't expect people who have been happy to live blindly up till this point to see what we do.

41

 Jul 24, 2011 at 09:47 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #2  
DemsBeBabies Says:

If this is so important, why isn't this organization not going to the yeshivas and day schools to implement these rules? Why does everything need to be legislated from a bunch of bafoons in city hall out albany?

You raise a very good point. The JBAC should start a campaign of applying directly to Yeshivas and girls' schools to convince them of the benefits of implementing those additional safety measures.

42

 Jul 24, 2011 at 10:00 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #4  
gabe_e12 Says:

Mr. Pasik quotes unspecified studies which show "the majority of SEX crimes go unreported.." Then states, as if it's a fact, "Leiby Kletsky, for example". Mr. Pasik, where do you get the info to state, as fact, that Leiby's abduction was a sex crime? Especially with all the authorities insisting there was no indication of any sexual abuse, nor is the presumed murderer charged with any sex crime? Is this how you create the multitude of "sex crimes which go unreported"? By presuming such crimes have occurred, even when evidence shows they haven't? It is precisely this attitude, of presumption that a sex crime has occurred, despite evidence to the contrary, that has nonpublic schools wary of legislation mandating reporting. If there were no fear of potential witch hunts, a phenomenon which dishonesty facilitates, our mosdos hatorah would support the legislation you propose.

Precisely. If you overreach you fail. Case in point. The Casey Anthony murder trial in Florida, where there is an abundance of circumstantial evidence (and motive) that the mother had knowledge and participation in the death of her child. But because the prosecution went for the death penalty, they were hard pressed to tie the mother forensically to the murder. Which they couldn't do. And she went free. Btw. The defendant's lawyer is all so smug and thinks he is the greatest attorney since F. Lee Bailey. What he fails to realize is, that he won the case by default. His theories (whether he believed them or not) were so ridiculous that they were laughable.

43

 Jul 24, 2011 at 10:10 PM charliehall Says:

Reply to #2  
DemsBeBabies Says:

If this is so important, why isn't this organization not going to the yeshivas and day schools to implement these rules? Why does everything need to be legislated from a bunch of bafoons in city hall out albany?

Because only a statute can allow for background checks or give employees the status of mandated reporters. The buffoons are the people who are trying to stop this bill.

44

 Jul 24, 2011 at 10:17 PM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #19  
gabe_e12 Says:

Dr. Zach,
The Netziv, opted to close down the "Mother of all Yeshivos", Yeshivas Volozhin, rather than to allow Government mandated curriculum to be taught. Regardless of your inability to comprehend the dangers of this, our leaders do. You wouldn't want those who work in the chinuch field to advise your patients as to how you should treat them, I'll thank you to for granting them similar courtesy.
Fyi-there was a time in our history where we invited secular power to address our internal strife, during the times of the 2nd bais hamikdash, waring factions of the dcendents of the chashmanoim asked the romans to help them settle their dispute. We know how that concluded.

Yeshivas in Spain, France, Ireland, and Canada teach the government mandated curriculum today. It isn't a problem.

45

 Jul 24, 2011 at 10:18 PM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #26  
DemsBeBabies Says:

I am a parent. I send my children to a school that I trust. I talk to my children about how no adult can touch them in places covered by a bathing suit (as per rav yanky horowitz, and many rabbonim before him). this rush to the government to legislate has got to stop. its nonsense! if people really wanted these measures, they would stop sending their children to mosdos that has these issues of hiding pedophiles. just because some lawyer started and organization and bamboozled some rabbis into signing on to legislation "HE WROTE" does not mean its a good idea. it also dosnt mean its a bad idea. it just means its an idea. i for one and not keen on states mandating private institutions, whether they be schools, businesses, etc, do anything that some possy of self proclaimed do gooders want.

You have no idea whether your childrens' schools are harboring pedophiles, and your school administration has not idea whether their staff have a criminal history. And as long as you get your way, that will not change. The law needs to be changed.

46

 Jul 24, 2011 at 10:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #32  
Leon Zacharowicz MD Says:

I find it troubling that someone, hiding behind the cloak of anonymity, would criticize those who are trying to protect our children.

I do not personally agree with everything Elliot Pasik does, but the man has dedicated over a decade of his life to help protect our kids. Along with others, including former victims of abuse, Elliot approached numerous schools and organizations in our kehillah to try to institute child safety measures.

Nothing happened.

Meanwhile, the cases of molestation have continued to pile up. We're talking about a large number of victims, certainly in the hundreds, maybe even higher.

Each pedophile who molests typically molests dozens if not hundreds of kids before he is detected. If not stopped, he will almost certainly go on to molest hundreds more.

To compare a suggestion that our schools adapt a proven method to stem abuse to the attempt by the Russian government to limit Torah teaching to 3 or so hours daily is a bit much, for an anonymous contributor, as is the comparison to the warring factions at the time before the destruction of the Temple.

It is time for our mosdos to implement child safety programs.

I, too, hide behind that cloak of anonymity. Without referring to any individual, I take serious opposition to the "advocacy" movement, whose mission deserves intense and fearless examination. This latest proposal is a welcome breath of air, focused on children being safe in school. I lend my full support. But much of the "advocacy" that dominated the media for the past few years had nothing to do with children or safety. It was all about punishing yeshivos, destroying our community leadership, shmearing the names of our talmidei chachomim, in whose light we navigate the current world. As a member of the frum community, I was embarrassed by noise and schmutz that had no focus on children altogether, just misdirected anger and rage. I do not know why Rav Blau left JBAC. But this indiscriminate blasting of our gedolim that was constant was too much to bear. We all advocate for children. But this behavior was not advocacy, it was rebellion. I fully support our mosdos being made safer. Media and rage are not the tools of the righteous. If we approach our leaders to work WITH them, not to demean them, it will work. We already see much progress. Let's continue.

47

 Jul 25, 2011 at 12:52 AM Leon Zacharowicz MD Says:

I completely agree that we should strive to work together. Unfortunately, for many years well-meaning professionals, including former victims of sexual molestation, were either ignored or in some cases villified when they tried to get certain yeshiva administrators to listen to them, to address concerns about certain rebbes, and going forward to evaluate employees' past histories.

Rav Elyashiv clearly ruled, several years ago, that if someone has a reasonable suspicion of abuse, it should be reported to the authorities.

Whether legislation is the best way to get the hundreds upon hundreds of our schools which do not do even basic background checks to do a background check
(to weed out known sexual offenders and other miscreants) is questionable, but so far all other approaches taken by these activists have been met with silence, or even scorn.

Meanwhile, the predators continue, in camps, in yeshivas, in mikvahs, and wherever they can, to groom our youth and seek opportunities to gratify themselves by destroying our children's souls, knowing full well how easy it is to get away with such vile acts in our community, due to the misplaced reluctance to contact the police.

48

 Jul 25, 2011 at 12:55 AM gabe_e12 Says:

Reply to #40  
Sherree Says:

It is impossible to speak logic to some people especially those who just wish to spout nonsense. It is delusional to even think that the purpose of luring Leiby was to murder him. NO ONE believes that for one minute. You are entitled to your own opinion for whatever it is worth. However, if you were involved at all in the issue of child abuse and molestation you would be able to recognize the signs and they are all here. All the professionals involved in this issue see the signs and recognize it. WE are all in agreement. I don't expect people who have been happy to live blindly up till this point to see what we do.

"It is impossible to speak logic to some people especially those who just wish to spout nonsense."

Agreed!

"It is delusional to even think that the purpose of luring Leiby was to murder him. NO ONE believes that for one minute."

Right! Because all of aron's other actions, such as driving him to rockland, Not molesting him during the 24 hours he held him captive, joining in the tehilim sessions, butchering the body, etc. that all followed some sort of logical pattern, so it naturally follows that the kidnapping had some other logical purpose such as molestation, rather than just "stam phsyco killer"

"You are entitled to your own opinion for whatever it is worth. However, if you were involved at all in the issue of child abuse and molestation you would be able to recognize the signs and they are all here. All the professionals involved in this issue see the signs and recognize it. WE are all in agreement."

The fact that someone of your obviously limited education, could even attempt to pass themselves off as a 'professional' anything, with the inclusive 'WE' is laughable! If you have any experience dealing with abuse beyond a ride along on a Shomrim call to a domestic dispute, ill eat my hat! Volunteering one night a week at 'ohr yisroel', 'Ohr Navah' or 'our place' doesn't make you professional.

"I don't expect people who have been happy to live blindly up till this point to see what we do."

Seriously, give it up.

49

 Jul 25, 2011 at 01:24 AM gabe_e12 Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

I, too, hide behind that cloak of anonymity. Without referring to any individual, I take serious opposition to the "advocacy" movement, whose mission deserves intense and fearless examination. This latest proposal is a welcome breath of air, focused on children being safe in school. I lend my full support. But much of the "advocacy" that dominated the media for the past few years had nothing to do with children or safety. It was all about punishing yeshivos, destroying our community leadership, shmearing the names of our talmidei chachomim, in whose light we navigate the current world. As a member of the frum community, I was embarrassed by noise and schmutz that had no focus on children altogether, just misdirected anger and rage. I do not know why Rav Blau left JBAC. But this indiscriminate blasting of our gedolim that was constant was too much to bear. We all advocate for children. But this behavior was not advocacy, it was rebellion. I fully support our mosdos being made safer. Media and rage are not the tools of the righteous. If we approach our leaders to work WITH them, not to demean them, it will work. We already see much progress. Let's continue.

#46, you are my hero! I have never read a clearer, nor more concisely written expression of why so many feel those donning the mantel of children's advocacy over the last few years rub us wrong.

50

 Jul 25, 2011 at 07:21 AM Anonymous Says:

What a wonderful idea. We observe the "law of the land" and the children above all, must be protected.

51

 Jul 25, 2011 at 08:04 AM Butterfly Says:

To #45 I agree with you completely. All the yeshivas must fingerprint all employees from the Rabbis to the super and bus drivers. Anybody who comes in contact with our children is suspect. Stores that make deliveries -- school should make sure thata security guard accompanies the delivery man at all times!!

52

 Jul 25, 2011 at 09:51 AM GB_Jew Says:

Criminal record checks in the police records computers for *anyone* working with young people in the UK are compulsory. This includes rebbeim, melamdim and youth workers.

These records are not publicly accessible, and cannot be viewed without the subject's consent (though an employer may make such consent a condition of employment).

Information supplied depends on the level of disclosure. Low-level disclosures give only unspent convictions (i.e. convictions which have not yet been expunged under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act), while enhanced disclosures ideally include all convictions, cautions, reprimands and final warnings. An enhanced criminal record certificate may contain relevant information that need not relate solely to criminal matters

Arrests which do not lead to an official finding of guilt (e.g. the acceptance of a caution from a police officer) are not considered part of a person's criminal record,

Enhanced disclosures are typically used to screen applicants for positions such as social worker or teacher which involve contact with vulnerable groups.

53

 Jul 25, 2011 at 10:07 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
Butterfly Says:

To #45 I agree with you completely. All the yeshivas must fingerprint all employees from the Rabbis to the super and bus drivers. Anybody who comes in contact with our children is suspect. Stores that make deliveries -- school should make sure thata security guard accompanies the delivery man at all times!!

Nothing against fingerprinting, but it would be silly to place all our eggs in that basket. The crimes we fear do not leave fingerprints. We need background checks, and several kinds. The criminal history is the obvious one. It should be mandatory. There should also be a utilized database for chinuch which details about just which areas of behavior a candidate is deficient. Not every incompetent applicant for chinuch is a pedophile. Some do not know how to manage a classroom, others can't write curriculum, others relate poorly to children. We should create a system where we hire those who are competent, not relatives or friends of a menahel. Solid background checks are critical. If we treat chinuch jobs as "sensitive" ones, we will not settle for less.

54

 Jul 25, 2011 at 10:19 AM Sherree Says:

Reply to #49  
gabe_e12 Says:

#46, you are my hero! I have never read a clearer, nor more concisely written expression of why so many feel those donning the mantel of children's advocacy over the last few years rub us wrong.

It was all this loud noise that caused the Agudah to change their position and post it this past Erev Shabbos. Now they are clearly in-line with Rav Eliyashuv's peak about going to the authorities if you have Raglayim l'davar meaning "reason to believe or reason to suspect". That is a huge turn around and it did not come from thin air."

55

 Jul 25, 2011 at 10:25 AM Sherree Says:

Reply to #48  
gabe_e12 Says:

"It is impossible to speak logic to some people especially those who just wish to spout nonsense."

Agreed!

"It is delusional to even think that the purpose of luring Leiby was to murder him. NO ONE believes that for one minute."

Right! Because all of aron's other actions, such as driving him to rockland, Not molesting him during the 24 hours he held him captive, joining in the tehilim sessions, butchering the body, etc. that all followed some sort of logical pattern, so it naturally follows that the kidnapping had some other logical purpose such as molestation, rather than just "stam phsyco killer"

"You are entitled to your own opinion for whatever it is worth. However, if you were involved at all in the issue of child abuse and molestation you would be able to recognize the signs and they are all here. All the professionals involved in this issue see the signs and recognize it. WE are all in agreement."

The fact that someone of your obviously limited education, could even attempt to pass themselves off as a 'professional' anything, with the inclusive 'WE' is laughable! If you have any experience dealing with abuse beyond a ride along on a Shomrim call to a domestic dispute, ill eat my hat! Volunteering one night a week at 'ohr yisroel', 'Ohr Navah' or 'our place' doesn't make you professional.

"I don't expect people who have been happy to live blindly up till this point to see what we do."

Seriously, give it up.

You make me laugh. So now you are not only an expert about what happened to Leiby. You are now qualified to analyze me and know what my education and qualifications are. You have just outed yourself on what anyone can believe about your IQ and what you are capable of when forming an opinion. Do you have this opinion about ALL women? START EATING GABE, do you want some salt and pepper with that hat and maybe some humble pie for desert?

56

 Jul 25, 2011 at 10:32 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
gabe_e12 Says:

"It is impossible to speak logic to some people especially those who just wish to spout nonsense."

Agreed!

"It is delusional to even think that the purpose of luring Leiby was to murder him. NO ONE believes that for one minute."

Right! Because all of aron's other actions, such as driving him to rockland, Not molesting him during the 24 hours he held him captive, joining in the tehilim sessions, butchering the body, etc. that all followed some sort of logical pattern, so it naturally follows that the kidnapping had some other logical purpose such as molestation, rather than just "stam phsyco killer"

"You are entitled to your own opinion for whatever it is worth. However, if you were involved at all in the issue of child abuse and molestation you would be able to recognize the signs and they are all here. All the professionals involved in this issue see the signs and recognize it. WE are all in agreement."

The fact that someone of your obviously limited education, could even attempt to pass themselves off as a 'professional' anything, with the inclusive 'WE' is laughable! If you have any experience dealing with abuse beyond a ride along on a Shomrim call to a domestic dispute, ill eat my hat! Volunteering one night a week at 'ohr yisroel', 'Ohr Navah' or 'our place' doesn't make you professional.

"I don't expect people who have been happy to live blindly up till this point to see what we do."

Seriously, give it up.

Are you Levi Aron's father or something? You seem to be sympathetic of him. Why are you so protective of an animal who confessed to murdering and dismembering Leiby? Grown men abduct young boys for either two reasons. One is to molest them and two is to kidnap them for ransom. He obviously was not interested in ransom. He has been linked to trying to lure other young boys into his car. He is a freak. He will rot in prison and hopefully other prisoners will do justice to him.

57

 Jul 25, 2011 at 11:32 AM A1826 Says:

Police are still investigating. The fact that they don't have any proof or evidence of sexual abuse, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Why would anyone abduct a child? Like the previous poster wrote, either ransom or sexual gratification.

He tried this before and he is a pedophile. What else do you need?

Oh, about keeping the neshamele's feet, any reason for that? If he only wanted to murder, why didn't he dump his body in the sea and get rid of any evidence? He couldn't even control himself to do that. It's hard to grasp how such a sick mind works.

58

 Jul 25, 2011 at 11:38 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
Leon Zacharowicz MD Says:

Elliot Pasik has waged a tireless campaign to protect the children of our community, and all children who attend non-public schools. He and his colleagues have over the years approached numerous private schools, including yeshivas and girls' high schools, only to be rebuffed.

Commonsense measures such as educating our children with regard to child safety and the need to notify a parent or responsible adult of any suspicious incident. Public schools have an age-appropriate curriculum to teach child safety, including fire safety, dealing with strangers and those who seek to touch a kid inappropriately, how to refuse and seek help. Our schools can and should adapt these proven curricula, but strangely have by and large neglected or even refused to do so.

It is unbelievable that our schools by and large do not do criminal background checks on the custodians, groundskeepers, etc, let alone the various teachers of secular and religious studies. The tests take seconds and within 48 hours a school can be notified if the applicant has a criminal record.

Elliot and VIN deserve our thanks for seeking to protect our kids.

Parents should insist on these minimal safety measures!

Parents should insist on these minimal safety measures!”

Parents can insist all they want, but the crimes will still be covered up by those in charge. I know of several recent sexual advances by a Yeshiva teacher. When the parents went to complain, the parents were told it won't happen again. Now they are afraid to call in authorities for fear of retailiation, so they pulled their kinder out of the Yeshiva and enrolled in another one. Things just won't get better until criminal background checks are initiated and all crimes are reported to the police and not to our Ruvs.

59

 Jul 25, 2011 at 12:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #56  
Anonymous Says:

Are you Levi Aron's father or something? You seem to be sympathetic of him. Why are you so protective of an animal who confessed to murdering and dismembering Leiby? Grown men abduct young boys for either two reasons. One is to molest them and two is to kidnap them for ransom. He obviously was not interested in ransom. He has been linked to trying to lure other young boys into his car. He is a freak. He will rot in prison and hopefully other prisoners will do justice to him.

Those of us who are not deluded into believing the "fact" that this murderer was a molester are NOT sympathetic towards him. He is a monster, and I will have no part in defending anything the court can use to punish him. The molestation preoccupation has no relevance except for one conclusion, and this is where the "advocates" are majorly guilty. It leads to the ridiculous and blasphemous conclusion, without a single truthful fact to support it, that rabbonim were in any way harboring or protecting this murderer - that Leiby's blood is on their hands. I always wondered whether chutzpah was finite, but this allegation almost convinces me that it is not.

Our community falls way short in educating children proper measures of safety in many areas, from riding bikes wearing helmets, to dealing with strangers. We need to improve greatly on all of it. But no one is defending murder. Let the guilty pay. And our Chazal teach us, החושד בכשרים לוקה בגופו.

60

 Jul 25, 2011 at 12:35 PM Leon Zacharowicz MD Says:

I see no constructive benefit from personal attacks.

Whether sexual molestation occurred in this case is immaterial. Child safety should be our uppermost concern. To some extent, our "system" failed to protect this boy. Our system exposes many of our children to danger. We need to find ways to lower the risk-- one of which is prompt reporting of cases of child abuse.

61

 Jul 25, 2011 at 12:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #57  
A1826 Says:

Police are still investigating. The fact that they don't have any proof or evidence of sexual abuse, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Why would anyone abduct a child? Like the previous poster wrote, either ransom or sexual gratification.

He tried this before and he is a pedophile. What else do you need?

Oh, about keeping the neshamele's feet, any reason for that? If he only wanted to murder, why didn't he dump his body in the sea and get rid of any evidence? He couldn't even control himself to do that. It's hard to grasp how such a sick mind works.

מדבר שקר תרחק. Or don't you care? Police have been speaking continually, though it is certain that not all is being disclosed. However, they have repeated countless times that there is no indication of a sexual crime or such intent. There is also nothing historically that goes in that direction. Police can easily just skip the subject, but spokespeople would not outrightly lie to the public. Meanwhile, your inability to understand the bizarre crime leads you to conclude "facts" which are fiction. The poster you quote is no smarter either. We just don't know. The reports that he "tried this before" have not been substantiated, and there is zero indication that he is a pedophile (except that you want him to be one).

As for the feet, I heard an explanation, but it both hearsay and conjecture, so I won't repeat it. But this was a "sick mind", and unless you possess the same qualification, your thinking will not yield a motive.

62

 Jul 25, 2011 at 04:10 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #61  
Anonymous Says:

מדבר שקר תרחק. Or don't you care? Police have been speaking continually, though it is certain that not all is being disclosed. However, they have repeated countless times that there is no indication of a sexual crime or such intent. There is also nothing historically that goes in that direction. Police can easily just skip the subject, but spokespeople would not outrightly lie to the public. Meanwhile, your inability to understand the bizarre crime leads you to conclude "facts" which are fiction. The poster you quote is no smarter either. We just don't know. The reports that he "tried this before" have not been substantiated, and there is zero indication that he is a pedophile (except that you want him to be one).

As for the feet, I heard an explanation, but it both hearsay and conjecture, so I won't repeat it. But this was a "sick mind", and unless you possess the same qualification, your thinking will not yield a motive.

"Want him to be one"

Why does anyone want him to be one? You continue to believe it is normal for a 35 year old man to abduct an 8 yr old boy. It is obvious this man has pedophilia tendencies. I don't need a police report confirming it. How about we leave him in a locked room with your 8 yr old son? You are delusional.

63

 Jul 25, 2011 at 04:19 PM Sherree Says:

Reply to #59  
Anonymous Says:

Those of us who are not deluded into believing the "fact" that this murderer was a molester are NOT sympathetic towards him. He is a monster, and I will have no part in defending anything the court can use to punish him. The molestation preoccupation has no relevance except for one conclusion, and this is where the "advocates" are majorly guilty. It leads to the ridiculous and blasphemous conclusion, without a single truthful fact to support it, that rabbonim were in any way harboring or protecting this murderer - that Leiby's blood is on their hands. I always wondered whether chutzpah was finite, but this allegation almost convinces me that it is not.

Our community falls way short in educating children proper measures of safety in many areas, from riding bikes wearing helmets, to dealing with strangers. We need to improve greatly on all of it. But no one is defending murder. Let the guilty pay. And our Chazal teach us, החושד בכשרים לוקה בגופו.

There is not one person who concluded that Rabbonim in any way knew about this murderer nor did anything to protect HIM. However, it is a fact that Rabbonim do know molesters and do protect them.

64

 Jul 25, 2011 at 04:28 PM Sherree Says:

Reply to #60  
Leon Zacharowicz MD Says:

I see no constructive benefit from personal attacks.

Whether sexual molestation occurred in this case is immaterial. Child safety should be our uppermost concern. To some extent, our "system" failed to protect this boy. Our system exposes many of our children to danger. We need to find ways to lower the risk-- one of which is prompt reporting of cases of child abuse.

Dr. Zach,
To exclude the very real possibility of molestation intended or actually accomplished, is to exclude the more probable of scenarios which is that Levy Aron either bribed Leiby or threatened him into walking to that meeting point and getting permission from his parents NOT to get on the bus. Not understanding this is equal to NOT recognizing what a smart and capable young individual Leiby actually was, although he was no match for a predator. To say that Leiby was "lost" and asked this monster for help is equal to saying that Leiby was just a "silly" kid who couldn't find his way home. This is NOT true. He was a very intelligent child and it is important to note that even an intelligent smart can be duped and tricked by a pedophile. Smarts have nothing to do with it. The fact that our Frum kinderlach are too trusting and too willing to give in to authority and anyone older than them, becomes a problem. Predators are smart too when it comes to grooming and catching their prey. And kids are just no match for them if they are NOT taught and prepared.

65

 Jul 25, 2011 at 04:33 PM esther Says:

Reply to #11  
DemsBeBabies Says:

Then the parent body of said yeshivos will need to deal with the consequences. The answer is NEVER more legislation!

even the greatest libertarian will tell you that the primary function of goverment should be to insure the safety and welfare of it's citizen's.that is certainly most true of defenseless children!

66

 Jul 25, 2011 at 04:36 PM esther Says:

Reply to #18  
Butterfly Says:

A few years ago, a neighbor of mine showed me a pamphlet given out by the High Schools to every parent. It shows the picture and description of all child abusers who live in your neighborhood!! If the public high schools can receive it. Even the principal of all yeshivas and all teachers should be aware of this and should notify any parent who has children who may live nearby!! An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!!

most likely the yeshivas would not be too happy with a pamphet that has photos of frum pedophiles.they'd rather bury their heads in the sand.

67

 Jul 25, 2011 at 04:40 PM esther Says:

Reply to #19  
gabe_e12 Says:

Dr. Zach,
The Netziv, opted to close down the "Mother of all Yeshivos", Yeshivas Volozhin, rather than to allow Government mandated curriculum to be taught. Regardless of your inability to comprehend the dangers of this, our leaders do. You wouldn't want those who work in the chinuch field to advise your patients as to how you should treat them, I'll thank you to for granting them similar courtesy.
Fyi-there was a time in our history where we invited secular power to address our internal strife, during the times of the 2nd bais hamikdash, waring factions of the dcendents of the chashmanoim asked the romans to help them settle their dispute. We know how that concluded.

your post is pure narishkait.there is no corelation between portecting children from predators and the examples you have given,none! itis also just dumb to think a psychiatrist shouldn't be involved in chinuch.we educators,the ones worth anything often consult with them.

68

 Jul 25, 2011 at 06:10 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #64  
Sherree Says:

Dr. Zach,
To exclude the very real possibility of molestation intended or actually accomplished, is to exclude the more probable of scenarios which is that Levy Aron either bribed Leiby or threatened him into walking to that meeting point and getting permission from his parents NOT to get on the bus. Not understanding this is equal to NOT recognizing what a smart and capable young individual Leiby actually was, although he was no match for a predator. To say that Leiby was "lost" and asked this monster for help is equal to saying that Leiby was just a "silly" kid who couldn't find his way home. This is NOT true. He was a very intelligent child and it is important to note that even an intelligent smart can be duped and tricked by a pedophile. Smarts have nothing to do with it. The fact that our Frum kinderlach are too trusting and too willing to give in to authority and anyone older than them, becomes a problem. Predators are smart too when it comes to grooming and catching their prey. And kids are just no match for them if they are NOT taught and prepared.

Sheree: You're getting ridiculous. Your armchair detective work and logic help no one. Anything worth considering is being done so by experts, with training and experience. Your suppositions about whether Leiby was molested won't help him. If there is basis to charge the murderer, I'm certain they can do so without your help. How smart we wish to consider him is of no consequence unfortunately. The possibility has not been excluded, and the pursuit of evidence pointing in that direction has been consistently futile. I won't waste time arguing that. Our children must be taught and prepared for everything. I am sure we agree on that.

The issue here is that this entire discussion is not about Leiby. Neither is it about protecting children. It is completely about the war between JBAC and similar advocates and advocacy groups against the Agudah and mainstream halacha establishment. It is about blame, guilt, hate, and machlokes, not safety. If we could all drop the negative stuff, and work toward achdus in the community, where the voices of divisiveness are silenced, we'll all be happier and safer. Same for our children.

69

 Jul 25, 2011 at 06:42 PM gabe_e12 Says:

Reply to #60  
Leon Zacharowicz MD Says:

I see no constructive benefit from personal attacks.

Whether sexual molestation occurred in this case is immaterial. Child safety should be our uppermost concern. To some extent, our "system" failed to protect this boy. Our system exposes many of our children to danger. We need to find ways to lower the risk-- one of which is prompt reporting of cases of child abuse.

"Whether sexual molestation occurred in this case is immaterial."

Then why mention this case in the letter to the legislators? Which is precisely my point! The only reason to tie molestation of our children to the kletzky tragedy is simply for reasons of sensationalism.
Sure you can respond that it all comes under one heading of safety of our children, yet I don't see any letter to legislators to enact child protection laws in light of the mauling of two yiddishe kinderlach in Alaska!
Where is the outcry that: "in light of what happened to those 2 tyereh neshamos, we should be demanding that our schools at the very least conform to the reporting and safety requirements of public schools"? You know why.....because everyone agrees that the bear attacks were an anomaly, and which fool would feel Rage towards a senseless bear. More tyrere yiddishe kinderlach were damaged by bears in the last 5 years, than
were butchered by psychopaths. Where's your concern for the safety of our children. Lock up the bears and throw away the key!

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 Jul 25, 2011 at 09:47 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #68  
Anonymous Says:

Sheree: You're getting ridiculous. Your armchair detective work and logic help no one. Anything worth considering is being done so by experts, with training and experience. Your suppositions about whether Leiby was molested won't help him. If there is basis to charge the murderer, I'm certain they can do so without your help. How smart we wish to consider him is of no consequence unfortunately. The possibility has not been excluded, and the pursuit of evidence pointing in that direction has been consistently futile. I won't waste time arguing that. Our children must be taught and prepared for everything. I am sure we agree on that.

The issue here is that this entire discussion is not about Leiby. Neither is it about protecting children. It is completely about the war between JBAC and similar advocates and advocacy groups against the Agudah and mainstream halacha establishment. It is about blame, guilt, hate, and machlokes, not safety. If we could all drop the negative stuff, and work toward achdus in the community, where the voices of divisiveness are silenced, we'll all be happier and safer. Same for our children.

JBAC writes a meticulously researched letter asking the State Legislature to extend all child protection laws to yeshivas, and you declare that they are promoting hate and machlokes. The letter does not mention Aguda.

Next, you declare, let's drop the negative stuff, and let's silence JBAC.

I think you're the one who's negative. Who is JBAC? The members' names are on the stationery. Lawyers, doctors, rabbis, parents, and a couple sex abuse victims. They express their opinions in writing, as respectfully as possible, there for all the world to see. You're changing the subject from the very legitimate ideas they are promoting. You're the one who's getting personal and divisive.

71

 Jul 25, 2011 at 09:57 PM Sherree Says:

Reply to #68  
Anonymous Says:

Sheree: You're getting ridiculous. Your armchair detective work and logic help no one. Anything worth considering is being done so by experts, with training and experience. Your suppositions about whether Leiby was molested won't help him. If there is basis to charge the murderer, I'm certain they can do so without your help. How smart we wish to consider him is of no consequence unfortunately. The possibility has not been excluded, and the pursuit of evidence pointing in that direction has been consistently futile. I won't waste time arguing that. Our children must be taught and prepared for everything. I am sure we agree on that.

The issue here is that this entire discussion is not about Leiby. Neither is it about protecting children. It is completely about the war between JBAC and similar advocates and advocacy groups against the Agudah and mainstream halacha establishment. It is about blame, guilt, hate, and machlokes, not safety. If we could all drop the negative stuff, and work toward achdus in the community, where the voices of divisiveness are silenced, we'll all be happier and safer. Same for our children.

Truly you have missed ALL the important points here and just wish to promote your own agenda.

72

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