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Israel - Chabad Rabbis: Flyer Against Singer Avraham Fried Nothing Personal

Published on: August 11, 2011 05:12 PM
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Israel - Rav Yeshayahu Herzl, Chief Rabbi of Natzerat Illit, said Thursday that a flyer signed by Chabad rabbis against mixed-audience music performances was not directed against an upcoming show in Afula, located at the northwest corner of the Jezreel Valley, by singer Avraham Fried. 

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“The headline that said that we forbid participation in Fried’s show is incorrect. There is nothing personal here, we were not talking about a specific personality.”

Rav Herzl explained that the rabbi’s flyer was directed to the G-d fearing public and not to the singers themselves. “We as rabbis think that the God fearing public does not have a heter [rabbinical permission] to participate in shows that do not have separation [between men and women]. We assume that the singers who are themselves hareidi asked their rabbis if they should perform. But we have a duty to warn our people in order to avoid mishaps.


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1

 Aug 11, 2011 at 05:27 PM am Says:

is avraham performing with mixed seating or family seating?

2

 Aug 11, 2011 at 05:43 PM Eggheaded Says:

I don’t know why the Rabbis are so afraid to come out against things that they feel is against the Halacha of the Torah. It seems they are so petrified. It is their obligation; if it is wrong say out loud it is wrong. If it is not wrong then it is not wrong for anyone. The only place where we see 2 sets of Halachas is for someone who is considered a sick person, but not by attendees of a concert. I don’t say anything Chas Vesholom against Rabbis . They know better than me. But, I ask I want to understand.

3

 Aug 11, 2011 at 05:53 PM Paulie123 Says:

About time they spoke out against this pritzus. Today everything is done with the excuse of kiruv rechokim. Did Chazal permit one to eat chazir at a restaurant with a non frum Jew on the basis of being mekarev him? What is forbidden is forbidden no matter what and stop trying to use the excuse of kiruv rechokim for your own personal monetary gain

4

 Aug 11, 2011 at 08:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Paulie123 Says:

About time they spoke out against this pritzus. Today everything is done with the excuse of kiruv rechokim. Did Chazal permit one to eat chazir at a restaurant with a non frum Jew on the basis of being mekarev him? What is forbidden is forbidden no matter what and stop trying to use the excuse of kiruv rechokim for your own personal monetary gain

You are a really challenged person to call a concert of yiddeshe music by Avramale, a frum yid and yirai shamayim, "pritizus". These rabbonim who signed this letter should be condemend by the gadolim and askanim who think rationally.

5

 Aug 11, 2011 at 08:22 PM RUStupidOrPretending Says:

Reply to #1  
am Says:

is avraham performing with mixed seating or family seating?

Can u tell me the difference?

6

 Aug 11, 2011 at 08:41 PM Lonelyking Says:

Reply to #3  
Paulie123 Says:

About time they spoke out against this pritzus. Today everything is done with the excuse of kiruv rechokim. Did Chazal permit one to eat chazir at a restaurant with a non frum Jew on the basis of being mekarev him? What is forbidden is forbidden no matter what and stop trying to use the excuse of kiruv rechokim for your own personal monetary gain

Let me show you how your own prejudice made you to rush to judgment. It hurts you other people doing good, doesn't it? It's ok, there is time until the Yomim Noraim.
Do you think a Kol Koreh is for the so called 'rechokim'? Do you think they read Kol Korehs, and they listen to it??? It make sense to them?
(besides, this whole attitude of yours is expressed so nicely uaing a phrase like Kiruv Rechokim, you know, we are the 'IN' guys, we bring them closer to God. Really? Maybe they are closer than you are. You can never tell what's in a person's life. Maybe they do more kindness in day you can think up in a week???)
But I give you the benefit of the doubt, you probably never even realized, how degrading that expression is, and how counterproductive the use of it can prove to be.
The most important value is Achavat Yisrael, to love, help and cherish every Yid. Even the ones that do certain acts that are not in your guidelines of halacha.
Look at them with good eye. The cup half full or half empty?

7

 Aug 11, 2011 at 09:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
RUStupidOrPretending Says:

Can u tell me the difference?

With family seating, I can take my wife and younger children with me to hear the music. I cannot ask my young girls to sit by themselves in a separate section. There are also separate mens' and womens' sections in the concert hall or stadium for those who prefer not to mix genders. In a mixed concert, all the seating is mixed and there are no separate mens or womens sections. We are not talking about davening or tehillim. This is a music concert by an entertainer.

8

 Aug 11, 2011 at 09:32 PM torah guided Says:

Reply to #4  
Anonymous Says:

You are a really challenged person to call a concert of yiddeshe music by Avramale, a frum yid and yirai shamayim, "pritizus". These rabbonim who signed this letter should be condemend by the gadolim and askanim who think rationally.

So what's your definition of rational, anti torah? Anti halacha?
Mean while we have the gemara and shulchan aruch clearly prohibiting such events, may it be Avremele, Lipele or Getzele..

9

 Aug 11, 2011 at 09:45 PM esther Says:

Reply to #5  
RUStupidOrPretending Says:

Can u tell me the difference?

there's no reason for that.try to have an inteligent conversation.

10

 Aug 11, 2011 at 10:12 PM Ajew4u Says:

Sick Rabbis that's why we have so many problems...why is it that when its a time to be happy do Rabbis always make problems?(like we don't have already)

11

 Aug 11, 2011 at 10:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Esther is right. Posting no. 5 is being sarcastic and simply is trying to deny the reality that family and mixed seating are both the same sort of so called "pritzius" that these rabbonim are warning against.

12

 Aug 11, 2011 at 11:09 PM Das Torah Says:

Reply to #7  
Anonymous Says:

With family seating, I can take my wife and younger children with me to hear the music. I cannot ask my young girls to sit by themselves in a separate section. There are also separate mens' and womens' sections in the concert hall or stadium for those who prefer not to mix genders. In a mixed concert, all the seating is mixed and there are no separate mens or womens sections. We are not talking about davening or tehillim. This is a music concert by an entertainer.

I understand ur feelings, but its still a real example of daas baal habayis opposite of daas Torah.
If u and ur daughters would sit alone in a hall it would've been a different story, since there are many people like u, so its basically u sitting next to someone else's wife and daughters, and someone else sitting next to ur wife and daughters, and this is what the Torah calls taaruvos, and avizreihu d'gilui aroyos.

13

 Aug 11, 2011 at 11:22 PM Torah doesnt change Says:

Reply to #6  
Lonelyking Says:

Let me show you how your own prejudice made you to rush to judgment. It hurts you other people doing good, doesn't it? It's ok, there is time until the Yomim Noraim.
Do you think a Kol Koreh is for the so called 'rechokim'? Do you think they read Kol Korehs, and they listen to it??? It make sense to them?
(besides, this whole attitude of yours is expressed so nicely uaing a phrase like Kiruv Rechokim, you know, we are the 'IN' guys, we bring them closer to God. Really? Maybe they are closer than you are. You can never tell what's in a person's life. Maybe they do more kindness in day you can think up in a week???)
But I give you the benefit of the doubt, you probably never even realized, how degrading that expression is, and how counterproductive the use of it can prove to be.
The most important value is Achavat Yisrael, to love, help and cherish every Yid. Even the ones that do certain acts that are not in your guidelines of halacha.
Look at them with good eye. The cup half full or half empty?

U totally misunderstood and misrepresented #3, he didn't utter any bad words on "rechokim", he pointed out a very valid and important point, many people would do certain deeds/misdeeds with the excuse of doing it for "the cause of kiruv rechokim", mixed concerts is a great example. The excuse of kiruv etc. Does not give a green light to transgress the Torah and the talmud of the chachomim and poskim.
Torah didn't and will never expire!

14

 Aug 11, 2011 at 11:33 PM are u for real? Says:

Reply to #7  
Anonymous Says:

With family seating, I can take my wife and younger children with me to hear the music. I cannot ask my young girls to sit by themselves in a separate section. There are also separate mens' and womens' sections in the concert hall or stadium for those who prefer not to mix genders. In a mixed concert, all the seating is mixed and there are no separate mens or womens sections. We are not talking about davening or tehillim. This is a music concert by an entertainer.

So if someone wants to eat a small piece of ham (chazir), he will then eat a whole kosher dish, would it be ok?
What exactly does it help for those masses of ppl sitting in mixed arrangements (yes, so called "family seating" is totally mixed, covered with a fancy word).
BTW, davenen and saying tehilim is not as bad when its mixed (bad enough) as it is when your sitting "entertaining" and having fun.
I just can't believe that more than one commentator should side with such an open pirtza and slap on the Torah.

15

 Aug 11, 2011 at 11:40 PM Positive Says:

The gemora Sukah (perek 5) tells us, what a "big tikkun" was made in the holy bais hamikdash, while thousands of yidden were gathering for simchas bais hashoaivoh, that men and women were separated and on different levels so it wouldn't bring to mixing gender, yes! In the holy place where people were so full of kedusha, much more than our people today, and still, chazal were still concerned it shouldn't bring to pirtzos, what can we say? Are we holier than the yidden in time of Bais hamikdash? Is the stadium more immune against yetzer hora than b"h.

16

 Aug 12, 2011 at 12:10 AM chosen-nation Says:

so rather go to a broadway show?

17

 Aug 12, 2011 at 01:38 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
am Says:

is avraham performing with mixed seating or family seating?

can you explain to me the difference between family seating & mixed seating? isn't it the same?

18

 Aug 12, 2011 at 04:24 AM Anonymous Says:

Dear Jewish community:
Your ideas of what is issur and can not be tolerated among our people is getting ridiculous. Mixed seating at a non religious event is not issur. You are about to make the whole existence of any of our people very painful and disruptive.

19

 Aug 12, 2011 at 07:41 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
chosen-nation Says:

so rather go to a broadway show?

What are your options, bad or worse? jump off the Empire state building, or rather the Washington bridge?

20

 Aug 12, 2011 at 10:00 AM shtill Says:

Reply to #1  
am Says:

is avraham performing with mixed seating or family seating?

Family seating is the politically correct way of saying mixed seating. When 2 families are sitting next to each other at a concert that is as mixed as mixed can get.

21

 Aug 12, 2011 at 10:06 AM shtill Says:

Reply to #9  
esther Says:

there's no reason for that.try to have an inteligent conversation.

Esther. Your level of debate always boils down to childlike argument. "My way or the highway" without offering any rational reasoning to back up any of your claims or beliefs. Yes, please explain how the two are different (without getting into the motive behind family seating - it wouldn't change the halacha anyway)

22

 Aug 12, 2011 at 10:57 AM hypocrites! Says:

Reply to #3  
Paulie123 Says:

About time they spoke out against this pritzus. Today everything is done with the excuse of kiruv rechokim. Did Chazal permit one to eat chazir at a restaurant with a non frum Jew on the basis of being mekarev him? What is forbidden is forbidden no matter what and stop trying to use the excuse of kiruv rechokim for your own personal monetary gain

just out of curiousity, do you all have the same inyan of avoiding pritzus by not flying on airplanes, taking city buses or trains? There is no question that negiya violations happen on public transportation besides all the problems that music concerts have, right?

And, for the record, what do you do about supermarkets or department stores?

23

 Aug 12, 2011 at 11:28 AM shtill Says:

Reply to #22  
hypocrites! Says:

just out of curiousity, do you all have the same inyan of avoiding pritzus by not flying on airplanes, taking city buses or trains? There is no question that negiya violations happen on public transportation besides all the problems that music concerts have, right?

And, for the record, what do you do about supermarkets or department stores?

Reb Moshe has written extensively on the topic of travelling in tight spaces and the issue of negiah and he concludes it is not a problem (if one doesn't have any improper intentions, of course) a concert is an entire different matter. A concert ias not exactly a place where people come and sit back in trance like relaxation. Things get lively at best, and can sometimes get downright wild, which is ok as long as there is separate seating. I doubt any Rav would give a heter for men to sit among women who are swaying to the beat of lively tune. Feel me?

24

 Aug 12, 2011 at 11:36 AM proud-mo-israeli Says:

as we say in Israel .. "the dogs bark, but the convoy travels on"

25

 Aug 12, 2011 at 11:48 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
shtill Says:

Reb Moshe has written extensively on the topic of travelling in tight spaces and the issue of negiah and he concludes it is not a problem (if one doesn't have any improper intentions, of course) a concert is an entire different matter. A concert ias not exactly a place where people come and sit back in trance like relaxation. Things get lively at best, and can sometimes get downright wild, which is ok as long as there is separate seating. I doubt any Rav would give a heter for men to sit among women who are swaying to the beat of lively tune. Feel me?

No, I don't feel you.

I don't believe that a Jewish concert gets "downright wild" to the point of there being a problem with tznius, and would point out that even in separate sections, anything "wild" would be observable to anyone of the opposite sex with a good pair of binoculars or opera glasses, whcih are common at these events.

I don't believe a rov has the right ban attendance at a concert any more than he has a right to ban shopping at shoprite or waldbaum's claiming there is traif there that you MIGHT buy, so you are not allowed in at all.

I would also suggest for all you poskim, that the internet is infinitely more dangerous than a Jewish concert, and yet here all of you are....

26

 Aug 12, 2011 at 11:50 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
shtill Says:

Reb Moshe has written extensively on the topic of travelling in tight spaces and the issue of negiah and he concludes it is not a problem (if one doesn't have any improper intentions, of course) a concert is an entire different matter. A concert ias not exactly a place where people come and sit back in trance like relaxation. Things get lively at best, and can sometimes get downright wild, which is ok as long as there is separate seating. I doubt any Rav would give a heter for men to sit among women who are swaying to the beat of lively tune. Feel me?

I'm assuming from your answer that attending, say, the Israeli day parade would be according to you even more ossur than a Jewish Concert, correct?

27

 Aug 12, 2011 at 11:51 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
shtill Says:

Reb Moshe has written extensively on the topic of travelling in tight spaces and the issue of negiah and he concludes it is not a problem (if one doesn't have any improper intentions, of course) a concert is an entire different matter. A concert ias not exactly a place where people come and sit back in trance like relaxation. Things get lively at best, and can sometimes get downright wild, which is ok as long as there is separate seating. I doubt any Rav would give a heter for men to sit among women who are swaying to the beat of lively tune. Feel me?

so if tight spaces is not a problem, and negiah is not a problem, and so long as you don't have bad intentions it is not a problem, what then IS the problem with a concert? how is it worse than a crowded subway?

28

 Aug 12, 2011 at 11:52 AM PatersonMan Says:

The Rabbonim pronounced a correct ruling. It was directed to the Anshei Chabad. Let's be proud that it ended in such a professional manner.

29

 Aug 12, 2011 at 02:20 PM esther Says:

Reply to #21  
shtill Says:

Esther. Your level of debate always boils down to childlike argument. "My way or the highway" without offering any rational reasoning to back up any of your claims or beliefs. Yes, please explain how the two are different (without getting into the motive behind family seating - it wouldn't change the halacha anyway)

i'm not sure what you're talking about.i was referring to that posters use of a rude moniker to insult another poster.i wasn't actually refering to the topic at hand at all.

30

 Aug 12, 2011 at 03:31 PM shtill Says:

Reply to #25  
Anonymous Says:

No, I don't feel you.

I don't believe that a Jewish concert gets "downright wild" to the point of there being a problem with tznius, and would point out that even in separate sections, anything "wild" would be observable to anyone of the opposite sex with a good pair of binoculars or opera glasses, whcih are common at these events.

I don't believe a rov has the right ban attendance at a concert any more than he has a right to ban shopping at shoprite or waldbaum's claiming there is traif there that you MIGHT buy, so you are not allowed in at all.

I would also suggest for all you poskim, that the internet is infinitely more dangerous than a Jewish concert, and yet here all of you are....

Clearly agenda driven. If you don't see how shopping is different than concert hoppers you are clearly in denial. If you can't see how a concert can get wild you either have never been to one or, here again, you are in denial. The rabannim are not concerned with voyer oriented binocular peeking sickos, they are thinking about the regular guy being in such a setting.
I agree with you that the rabbanim have nop right to ban a concert or anything else for that matter, since only chz"l had the power and the necessary wisdom to impose bans, but they are not doing that here - they are just articulating the halacha already established for thousands of years. You are clearly agenda driven.

31

 Aug 12, 2011 at 03:36 PM FredE Says:

Reply to #15  
Positive Says:

The gemora Sukah (perek 5) tells us, what a "big tikkun" was made in the holy bais hamikdash, while thousands of yidden were gathering for simchas bais hashoaivoh, that men and women were separated and on different levels so it wouldn't bring to mixing gender, yes! In the holy place where people were so full of kedusha, much more than our people today, and still, chazal were still concerned it shouldn't bring to pirtzos, what can we say? Are we holier than the yidden in time of Bais hamikdash? Is the stadium more immune against yetzer hora than b"h.

That gemmora is very problematic. First, it was *only* for the Beis HaMikdosh. There is no evidence that an ordinary concert hall would have the same halachaos.
Your Kal Vechomer is very interesting, but you could just as well read that gemmora as a special halahcah for that place. There are lots of special halachas for the Beis HaMikash. Secondly, even for the Beis HaMikdash itself, this was only in place a one time temporary thing. (or possibly once a year --its not really clear).

The fact is, when you look at the mechitza issue itself that everyone seems to think is Holy Writ -- you find really very little there. I challenge anyone to tell me where to find it discussed in gemorra (other then that very vauge succah reference) or rishonim. There is very, very little there on this. Wouldn't you think the Rambam would mention it? And dont get me started on how this gender thing has gotten worse only recently...

32

 Aug 12, 2011 at 06:36 PM shtill Says:

Reply to #31  
FredE Says:

That gemmora is very problematic. First, it was *only* for the Beis HaMikdosh. There is no evidence that an ordinary concert hall would have the same halachaos.
Your Kal Vechomer is very interesting, but you could just as well read that gemmora as a special halahcah for that place. There are lots of special halachas for the Beis HaMikash. Secondly, even for the Beis HaMikdash itself, this was only in place a one time temporary thing. (or possibly once a year --its not really clear).

The fact is, when you look at the mechitza issue itself that everyone seems to think is Holy Writ -- you find really very little there. I challenge anyone to tell me where to find it discussed in gemorra (other then that very vauge succah reference) or rishonim. There is very, very little there on this. Wouldn't you think the Rambam would mention it? And dont get me started on how this gender thing has gotten worse only recently...

Most "early" poskim hold that a one may not say "shehasimchu b'mono" at a mixed wedding. Although the levush holds you can say, not because it is correct, but because it has become common.

33

 Aug 13, 2011 at 09:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #30  
shtill Says:

Clearly agenda driven. If you don't see how shopping is different than concert hoppers you are clearly in denial. If you can't see how a concert can get wild you either have never been to one or, here again, you are in denial. The rabannim are not concerned with voyer oriented binocular peeking sickos, they are thinking about the regular guy being in such a setting.
I agree with you that the rabbanim have nop right to ban a concert or anything else for that matter, since only chz"l had the power and the necessary wisdom to impose bans, but they are not doing that here - they are just articulating the halacha already established for thousands of years. You are clearly agenda driven.

thanks for double use of agenda-driven - do you have any idea what it means?

if it means hypocritical self-righteous pronouncements banning things they have no business involving themselves in, then ok. if it means giving a heter for similar things that are clearly ridiculous to ban, ok AGAIN.

it is enough to educate and publicize halachos. it not a rov's business to decide on which activities to ban or which to ALLOW?

and what possible agenda could i possibly have except a return to normalcy?

34

 Aug 13, 2011 at 09:59 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #32  
shtill Says:

Most "early" poskim hold that a one may not say "shehasimchu b'mono" at a mixed wedding. Although the levush holds you can say, not because it is correct, but because it has become common.

so don't go to a weeding that is mixed in any way.

the weddings that are mixed but have some tables set up with a mechitza are the biggest jokes in rationalizing mixed weddings and completely hypocritical.

35

 Aug 14, 2011 at 01:56 AM shtill Says:

Reply to #33  
Anonymous Says:

thanks for double use of agenda-driven - do you have any idea what it means?

if it means hypocritical self-righteous pronouncements banning things they have no business involving themselves in, then ok. if it means giving a heter for similar things that are clearly ridiculous to ban, ok AGAIN.

it is enough to educate and publicize halachos. it not a rov's business to decide on which activities to ban or which to ALLOW?

and what possible agenda could i possibly have except a return to normalcy?

Your thoughts are incoherent and you did not address anything in your long rant.

I can only reiterate once more - this is not a ban or an attempt to regulate your leisure activities. This is a open proclamation of what is already stated in the torah and halacha. Sorry if it eats your goat! I certainly did not mean to hurt your feelings.

36

 Aug 14, 2011 at 08:30 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #35  
shtill Says:

Your thoughts are incoherent and you did not address anything in your long rant.

I can only reiterate once more - this is not a ban or an attempt to regulate your leisure activities. This is a open proclamation of what is already stated in the torah and halacha. Sorry if it eats your goat! I certainly did not mean to hurt your feelings.

really? It says in the Torah and halachos that you can't go to a Jewish concert but you can go on a plane, bus or subway without a problem?

Who are you kidding?

37

 Aug 14, 2011 at 10:05 AM shtill Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

really? It says in the Torah and halachos that you can't go to a Jewish concert but you can go on a plane, bus or subway without a problem?

Who are you kidding?

I'm not trying to kid anyone. It's all out there for any objective observer to research. Reb Moshe - do you think he had an agenda? Look him up sit down and learn his responsa with someone who can teach it to you. Perhaps then we can have an intelligent discussion. Also, therapy will help you get over your childhood scars and allow you to think and believe without the reactionary knee jerk impulse.

38

 Aug 14, 2011 at 10:40 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #37  
shtill Says:

I'm not trying to kid anyone. It's all out there for any objective observer to research. Reb Moshe - do you think he had an agenda? Look him up sit down and learn his responsa with someone who can teach it to you. Perhaps then we can have an intelligent discussion. Also, therapy will help you get over your childhood scars and allow you to think and believe without the reactionary knee jerk impulse.

you really are an idiot.

And what is this obsession with "agendas" you have? I think YOU have an agenda. and that you're very arrogant for an ignorant little pisher. YOU'RE going to teach Reb Moshe to ME? What a joke! You would have to understand him first.

If you want to sit down and learn something, look up "ad hominem" attacks. Someone with something to say argues the case and the facts, someone with nothing to say attacks the other speaker personally.

tell you what: I'm a member of Mensa, so when you can beat that, talk to me about intelligent discussions. Until then, argue your arguments by telling people they have childhood scars and need therapy. While you're in the dictionary, look up "transference" as well.

you really, REALLY should live up to your name. You are probably some fifteen year old brat who remembers one or two things from yeshiva (incorrectly), and thinks he can argue with the big boys. Get a life.

39

 Aug 14, 2011 at 03:40 PM shtill Says:

Reply to #38  
Anonymous Says:

you really are an idiot.

And what is this obsession with "agendas" you have? I think YOU have an agenda. and that you're very arrogant for an ignorant little pisher. YOU'RE going to teach Reb Moshe to ME? What a joke! You would have to understand him first.

If you want to sit down and learn something, look up "ad hominem" attacks. Someone with something to say argues the case and the facts, someone with nothing to say attacks the other speaker personally.

tell you what: I'm a member of Mensa, so when you can beat that, talk to me about intelligent discussions. Until then, argue your arguments by telling people they have childhood scars and need therapy. While you're in the dictionary, look up "transference" as well.

you really, REALLY should live up to your name. You are probably some fifteen year old brat who remembers one or two things from yeshiva (incorrectly), and thinks he can argue with the big boys. Get a life.

If you really are a member of Mensa, then that would be a statement about the organization and not about you. While we are at the qualification discussion - no I am not fifteen years old, I am more that twice that age. No, I haven't attended Yeshiva, I am a BT. I do, however, have various degrees form Harvard and NYU including a PhD in medieval philosophy. Beat that!
Back to your argument. Do you use a toaster oven on Shabbos? I hope not. Assuming that you don't I would like to ask you where in the torah or halacha does it say it's use on shabbos is prohibited?

40

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