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Jerusalem - Rav Chaim Amsalem Slams Charedi Education, Says Torah Study With Trade To Support One’s Family Is What Chazal Clearly State

Published on: September 1, 2011 11:30 AM
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Jerusalem - Hundreds of thousands of students begin a new school year today. Some will learn basic Judaism and Torah along with general studies. Some will study Torah in the mornings and general studies in the afternoons, and some will learn Torah exclusively. While the minimal degree of Jewish content in the more secular schools saddens me, I am even more troubled by the third category described above. The haredi world in which I live does not educate children in accordance with Jewish tradition.

Haredi schools not following Jewish tradition!? Aren’t they the ones who do uphold tradition? Haven’t the more modern movements veered from the path?

The answer is simply that any movement which teaches its children only Torah is a modern aberration.

Traditional Torah sources teach in the clearest of terms that learning a trade to support one’s family with dignity – alongside Torah study and living a Torah-observant lifestyle – is the highest of ideals. For example, in the Jerusalem Talmud, Peiah, Chapter 1 interprets the Torah’s instruction to “choose life” as a command to have a trade. The Babylonian Talmud, Kiddushin, 29a teaches that “a father must teach his son a trade. Anyone who does not teach his son a trade is as if he taught his son robbery.” The Midrash on Ecclesiastes Chapter 9 instructs: “Acquire for yourself a trade together with Torah.” The Babylonian Talmud, Brachot 8a goes as far as saying that “a person who earns a living from his own handiwork is greater than one who fears heaven.” Finally, Wisdom of our Fathers Chapter 2 states emphatically that “any Torah not accompanied by work will end up being nullified, and will lead to sin.”

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A glance through the Mishna and Talmud reveals that along with being great Torah sages, the leaders of their generations earned a living as doctors, tailors, launderers, plowers, carpenters, land measurers, shoe makers and repairmen, wood choppers, beer makers, bakers, smiths, trap makers, engravers, skin tanners, mill workers, scribes, pit diggers, bundle and beam transporters, wool merchants and weavers.

All the above sources no doubt served as the basis for the teaching from Maimonides, himself a world-class Torah scholar and physician (Laws of Torah Study 3:10-11): “Any person who makes the decision to study Torah without a livelihood and to sustain himself from charity – such a person desecrates God, disgraces Torah, extinguishes the light of religion, causes bad for himself, and removes himself from the World to Come… and our sages also commanded that a person should not earn a living from Torah… It is a high level for a person to earn a living from his own toil and a trait of the saintly. Through this, a person earns all the honor and good in this world and the next.”

This approach continued until the past few hundred years. For example, the 15th century Orchot Tzadikim (309), teaches that “A person must find middle ground with two responsibilities and set aside hours for Torah study and for work in this world, and must strengthen himself to do both… neither should take away from the other.” The famed Maharal of 16th century Prague relates in Netivot Olam that “when a person is busy with two pursuits – work to provide for what his body needs and Torah for completion of his soul – he will not find any sin.”

So it is clear that Jewish tradition advocates intensive Torah study together with learning a trade. In our times, this means teaching students whatever they need to earn a university degree – the primary path for earning a livelihood in today’s world. (I also advocate joint yeshiva and university programs – a topic for a future column).

Lest one think it is impossible to provide an intensive yeshiva education while studying language, mathematics, science or history, a glance at the yeshiva world in the US proves that highschool students attending the most haredi institutions – Lakewood, Torah Va’daas, Philadelpia, Chaim Berlin, Telshe, and more study all these subjects as mandated by US law. This provides students with the option of university study, which many pursue, and produces well-balanced and worldly Torah scholars who bring sanctity to God’s name in the workplace and earn great respect for their communities.

I must make two important clarifications. Maimonides, at the end of the Laws of the Sabbatical and Jubilee years, elaborates on the benefits of doing nothing but studying Torah. The Ohr HaChayim, one of the greatest biblical commentators of the early 18th century, explains that this teaching refers to a person or group who wants to support a full-time Torah scholar in a partnership. Maimonides, in the Laws of Torah Study quoted above, is referring to a person who places a burden on the nation through his learning, and essentially forces others to support him. If someone has a private arrangement by which he does nothing but study Torah while receiving the support of a private individual, this is a blessing.

I personally love nothing more than quiet moments alone with the Talmud, or studying the Parsha with my children, and cannot imagine a more beautiful lifestyle. However, as Maimonides states, no person can choose to place the burden of supporting him on the community. This is exactly what the haredi school system does.

Clarification number two relates to our need as a community to produce elite Torah scholars. It has always been part of our tradition to identify a select group of young men who have the potential and drive needer to spend their entire lives studying Torah and we, as a community, should not only support them but should feel blessed to have that opportunity. The number in each generation who fit these criteria is quite small, but even today we should find those elite scholars and spare them any worry about having to earn a living.

I have extensive plans to establish a system of government-funded schools to provide haredi boys with the opportunity to reconnect to authentic Jewish study of Torah and general studies, enablinge them to sustain their families with dignity. I bless all our students with a successful and fruitful school year, but will not cease to work toward rehabilitating the haredi system as an MK and through the Am Shalem movement. It is time for the haredim who claim to fight for authentic Judaism to truly live by that lofty ideal.

The writer is an MK, and the founder and chairman of the Am Shalem political movement.
Read full Op-Ed in The Jerusalem Post By Rabbi Chaim Amsalem 


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1

 Sep 01, 2011 at 11:37 AM Lakewooder Says:

"The US proves that highschool students attending the most haredi institutions – Lakewood, Torah Va’daas, Philadelpia, Chaim Berlin, Telshe, and more study all these subjects ." Sorry but Lakewood high schools do not have secular studies. I think they should and its a problem but they don't. And most of the yeshivas mentioned above do not support a college education aside from Ytv allowing only Touro. Even Chaim Berlin has recently made it extremley diffucult to attend college.

2

 Sep 01, 2011 at 11:39 AM Anonymous Says:

Rav Amselam, shlita, is a remarkable leader who speaks emes when he says that the modern trend for Chareidim to only learn Torah is an aberration and really contrary to daas torah and halacha. Hopefully, the more challenged rabbonim who mindlessly oppose teaching secular subjects in schools needed to get a good paying job and then discourage their talmidim from going out and pursuing a profession to support their familes will see the folly of their views and become part of the needed solution.

3

 Sep 01, 2011 at 11:44 AM Chaim_Ben-Yehuda Says:

קול קורא במדבר - לדאבוני

4

 Sep 01, 2011 at 11:44 AM JustThinking Says:

the Truth is apparent when Spoken

5

 Sep 01, 2011 at 12:00 PM Anonymous Says:

This article is written as if this is the fact, and I know whats best and everyone else is wrong. The truth is that the Rambam has one opinion, while othes argue.

As well, their is a difference between an older married person working to support himself, and a young boy in cheder learning how to become a doctor, lawyer etc.

One can never know what will be in the future. Why should we waste the time of a young boy with all sorts of information, when we have no idea what he will be doing as a grown man. For example, we see many people who go to college, only to decide 4 years later that they want to do something else, adn thus they go back to college for another 4 years.

As well, from the time of Matan Torah, the yidden have NOT been learning secular studies, and somehow have been able to manage just fine. Trade schools are not for everyone. They are great for those that can't learn all day, but it is definitly not the "real" way yidden are supposed to be educated.

There is much more to be writtenon the matter, I just want to point out that there are two sides to every coin.

6

 Sep 01, 2011 at 12:03 PM UseYourHead Says:

100% emes. Baruch Hashem that we are zocheh to true leaders such as Rabbi Amsalem who are not afraid to speak the truth. He is 100% correct, and anyone who disagrees with him is either in denial, or more likely simply ignorant. May Hashem bless us with the zechus to recognize those who represent the truth of the Torah.

7

 Sep 01, 2011 at 12:04 PM G-Bro Says:

He makes a good argument with plenty of evidence to support his beliefs. I agree 100%

8

 Sep 01, 2011 at 12:11 PM Anonymous Says:

All what his said is right after marriage not in the yeshives where bucurim study most frum yeshives in Europe in the old days was only Torah study

9

 Sep 01, 2011 at 12:14 PM maxedout Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

This article is written as if this is the fact, and I know whats best and everyone else is wrong. The truth is that the Rambam has one opinion, while othes argue.

As well, their is a difference between an older married person working to support himself, and a young boy in cheder learning how to become a doctor, lawyer etc.

One can never know what will be in the future. Why should we waste the time of a young boy with all sorts of information, when we have no idea what he will be doing as a grown man. For example, we see many people who go to college, only to decide 4 years later that they want to do something else, adn thus they go back to college for another 4 years.

As well, from the time of Matan Torah, the yidden have NOT been learning secular studies, and somehow have been able to manage just fine. Trade schools are not for everyone. They are great for those that can't learn all day, but it is definitly not the "real" way yidden are supposed to be educated.

There is much more to be writtenon the matter, I just want to point out that there are two sides to every coin.

Now that you are on the internet, perhaps you should do a search on some of the rabbonim in the gemara. You will find that they ALL worked. True, they didnt all become doctors or lawyers, but they worked.. as vintners, shoemakers, water carriers, etc. They didnt sit in kollel taking handouts. Not to mention that this is the complete opposite of what is stated in the kesuba. So yes, the REAL way is to learn a trade and support a family.

10

 Sep 01, 2011 at 12:22 PM bubii Says:

he is just stating the obvious.

11

 Sep 01, 2011 at 12:26 PM Anonymous Says:

This guy is right. I was saddened in my community to learn that the children skipped their math classes. Truly this is a foolish move. I was proud that when I was in school, I excelled at mathematics and even took calculus in my senior yr of high school. I can not imagine the minds that could have been created if they would take an analytical class that deals with equations and other mathematical experiences. We aren't trying to make you a Calculus teacher, but it really does improve the mind and create a pathway in your brain that can be used for further analytical and mathematical thinking.

12

 Sep 01, 2011 at 12:26 PM chavie friedman Says:

How refreshing it is to hear Truth! It feels good to the soul when Truth is expressed and clarified! One only has to be in touch with their soul in order to feel it. Our generation has to reevaluate and be careful that we are not trying to be smarter than Hashem by creating lifestyles that are not in sync with what the Torah has so simply and clearly directed us to do. Unfortunately the children of todays generation are suffering and we ARE seeing the consequences of this unhealthy situation. Not only that so many boys are off the Derech, but many who stay in line feel so suffocated and view Yeshiva as a negative confinement. May Hashem guide us and give us the strength to make appropriate change!

13

 Sep 01, 2011 at 12:33 PM anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Lakewooder Says:

"The US proves that highschool students attending the most haredi institutions – Lakewood, Torah Va’daas, Philadelpia, Chaim Berlin, Telshe, and more study all these subjects ." Sorry but Lakewood high schools do not have secular studies. I think they should and its a problem but they don't. And most of the yeshivas mentioned above do not support a college education aside from Ytv allowing only Touro. Even Chaim Berlin has recently made it extremley diffucult to attend college.

"College" is not the same as learning a trade.

The things that go with "college" are the problem. There are a number of kosher ways to earn a degree.

I have been looking at the CUNY website thinking of my son and daughter. There is a "core curriculum." Brainwashing, propaganda, pritzus (i.e., certain kinds of literature).

I grew up totally secular and dormed at a very good state university. As a secular American teen, I was not prepared for what I saw and lived among. Or what I read in my textbooks.

Let's make a distinction between college and getting training for a career.

14

 Sep 01, 2011 at 12:34 PM shvigger Says:

"doctors, tailors, launderers, plowers, carpenters, land measurers, shoe makers and repairmen, wood choppers, beer makers, bakers, smiths, trap makers, engravers, skin tanners, mill workers, scribes, pit diggers, bundle and beam transporters, wool merchants and weavers."

Of all trades listed, the only one requiring immersion is secular education TODAY is doctoring. Doctoring in the old times didn't require one attend college, university, or even study medicine in a formal setting.

This theory that "secular education" will free you from poverty is another myth fanned by higher education fat-cats. Any Yeshiva boy who wants to can learn just about any trade he wishes.

Amsalem is just another voice of a modern orthodox wannabe Rabbi.

15

 Sep 01, 2011 at 12:37 PM dave Says:

The fact that he's saying different that every Gedol shows how wrong he is. He has the wrong Haskofa.

16

 Sep 01, 2011 at 12:44 PM Babishka Says:

Reply to #14  
shvigger Says:

"doctors, tailors, launderers, plowers, carpenters, land measurers, shoe makers and repairmen, wood choppers, beer makers, bakers, smiths, trap makers, engravers, skin tanners, mill workers, scribes, pit diggers, bundle and beam transporters, wool merchants and weavers."

Of all trades listed, the only one requiring immersion is secular education TODAY is doctoring. Doctoring in the old times didn't require one attend college, university, or even study medicine in a formal setting.

This theory that "secular education" will free you from poverty is another myth fanned by higher education fat-cats. Any Yeshiva boy who wants to can learn just about any trade he wishes.

Amsalem is just another voice of a modern orthodox wannabe Rabbi.

Most careers today require a college diploma, although you can receive training at a community college instead of a university. Even in the olden days, someone wishing to become a shoemaker, tailor, carpenter, had to train as an apprentice under a master.

17

 Sep 01, 2011 at 12:47 PM elhabara Says:

maybe in isreal. however, in america much cheaper and better to live off the goverment. freed medical, hud, food stamps, no taxes, lower yeshivah tuition.
why be a fool and work to pay taxes ?

18

 Sep 01, 2011 at 12:48 PM yochy Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

This article is written as if this is the fact, and I know whats best and everyone else is wrong. The truth is that the Rambam has one opinion, while othes argue.

As well, their is a difference between an older married person working to support himself, and a young boy in cheder learning how to become a doctor, lawyer etc.

One can never know what will be in the future. Why should we waste the time of a young boy with all sorts of information, when we have no idea what he will be doing as a grown man. For example, we see many people who go to college, only to decide 4 years later that they want to do something else, adn thus they go back to college for another 4 years.

As well, from the time of Matan Torah, the yidden have NOT been learning secular studies, and somehow have been able to manage just fine. Trade schools are not for everyone. They are great for those that can't learn all day, but it is definitly not the "real" way yidden are supposed to be educated.

There is much more to be writtenon the matter, I just want to point out that there are two sides to every coin.

your statements make no sense. what you essentially say is not to prepare because it may not be need. on the same logic you should not buy water and batteries before a storm bec it may go a different way. how can you get to the point where you can support yourself if no preperation is done beforehand. Just becasue one person changed his mind is irrelevant

19

 Sep 01, 2011 at 12:50 PM David Says:

"While the minimal degree of Jewish content in the more secular schools saddens me, I am even more troubled by the third category described above" (qote from the 1st paragraph in this article) In these few words you see that this Rabbi has an agenda. Which is worse not teaching secular studies in a chareidi school or not teaching much Judaism or limited Judaism in a secular school? Which frum person in any way can condone the EY secular schools that promote non-jewish ideals?
While I personally work, and work hard, I am happy there are thousand of bnei torah learning full-time (and happy that is their life choice) and if ever they have go to work they can learn how to make a living then. I did it! In the age of new technology etc, most of what one learnt 20 years ago is stale and newer ways have come around (are they better who knows!!).The Bnei Torah who literally moiser nefesh to learn protect us from terrible things, they are the soldiers on the front line. Whatever time one can learn, lets do just that and in High school let them learn whatever they can!! Go to Williamsburg there are many, many business man that did very well without any education but worked hard!!

20

 Sep 01, 2011 at 01:06 PM inNY Says:

And VIN gets slammed too for printing the truth.

22

 Sep 01, 2011 at 01:07 PM anonymous Says:

Where does he come from Rabbi Amsalem? The Yeshiva of Valozhin closed its doors , because the government made it mandatory to have secular studies!!!! Post marriage men after being in kolel for a few years, all have found gainful employment. Parnossoh is from the Ribboine Shel Oilem, and anyone who doubts that, is not worthy of giving an opinion on any subject!

23

 Sep 01, 2011 at 01:12 PM InNY Says:

Why Amselam is 100% correct?

Nowadays most children age 20 to 40 rely on their parents one way or the other, when they they marry off their children they go back to the parents for money, It becomes a burden for the parents anyhow.. so basically something is 100% wrong with our system.

and it wont last forever.

24

 Sep 01, 2011 at 01:18 PM Sense Says:

Reply to #22  
anonymous Says:

Where does he come from Rabbi Amsalem? The Yeshiva of Valozhin closed its doors , because the government made it mandatory to have secular studies!!!! Post marriage men after being in kolel for a few years, all have found gainful employment. Parnossoh is from the Ribboine Shel Oilem, and anyone who doubts that, is not worthy of giving an opinion on any subject!

The fact is the Ramabm was the biggest Torah scholar in the past 1000 years, and Vloshizn yeshiva learned Torah based on the Ramabam, and what did the Ramabam do??

HE was a Doctor. and a philosopher.

25

 Sep 01, 2011 at 01:17 PM bubii Says:

Reply to #14  
shvigger Says:

"doctors, tailors, launderers, plowers, carpenters, land measurers, shoe makers and repairmen, wood choppers, beer makers, bakers, smiths, trap makers, engravers, skin tanners, mill workers, scribes, pit diggers, bundle and beam transporters, wool merchants and weavers."

Of all trades listed, the only one requiring immersion is secular education TODAY is doctoring. Doctoring in the old times didn't require one attend college, university, or even study medicine in a formal setting.

This theory that "secular education" will free you from poverty is another myth fanned by higher education fat-cats. Any Yeshiva boy who wants to can learn just about any trade he wishes.

Amsalem is just another voice of a modern orthodox wannabe Rabbi.

so you really think he is making this statement out of thin air just for nothing, you cant be more wrong

26

 Sep 01, 2011 at 01:22 PM st3w Says:

I don't care much what Amselam has to say, but I'm troubled about the fact, that you cant have a civilized debate in our community on this issue, your considered an 'Oisforf', or worse for just bringing up this topic, you get shunned.., so at least I appreciate Amselam for his guts, to say what he believes. and he is basing it all on real Torah, not Hashkafah.

27

 Sep 01, 2011 at 01:21 PM MDG Says:

Reply to #15  
dave Says:

The fact that he's saying different that every Gedol shows how wrong he is. He has the wrong Haskofa.

A lot of things are quoted in the name of Gedolim, some of which they said and some not. And just because many people do something does not mean that it was sanctioned by Gedolim. Please find me a Sefer where Gedolim wrote that the Hamoan Am should not learn a trade nor have secular education.

BTW, I disagree with Rabbi Amsalem where he says that college is needed. I think that one needs some secular education and job training, which may or may not include college.

28

 Sep 01, 2011 at 01:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
shvigger Says:

"doctors, tailors, launderers, plowers, carpenters, land measurers, shoe makers and repairmen, wood choppers, beer makers, bakers, smiths, trap makers, engravers, skin tanners, mill workers, scribes, pit diggers, bundle and beam transporters, wool merchants and weavers."

Of all trades listed, the only one requiring immersion is secular education TODAY is doctoring. Doctoring in the old times didn't require one attend college, university, or even study medicine in a formal setting.

This theory that "secular education" will free you from poverty is another myth fanned by higher education fat-cats. Any Yeshiva boy who wants to can learn just about any trade he wishes.

Amsalem is just another voice of a modern orthodox wannabe Rabbi.

What a bundle of kishka (to be polite). Just about any meaningful profession today (other than waiting on tables at a Chulent Restaurant in BP) does require a college degree. Yes, of course, there are a small percentage of successful entrepreneurs like Bill Gates who didn't graduate but they are probably a tiny number compared to the majority who studied in college. College grads are hired because of they have a degree although many work in fields unrelated to that degree. There is no profession in banking, law, science, medicine, computers, technology etc (i.e. all the fields where they pay decent salaries and there is opportunity for professional growth) that will hire you without a college degree. If you want to work digging ditches, flipping burgers, or selling discounted cameras at a call center, then yes you might find a job without a formal degree if thats the kind of life you want).

29

 Sep 01, 2011 at 01:26 PM MDG Says:

Reply to #22  
anonymous Says:

Where does he come from Rabbi Amsalem? The Yeshiva of Valozhin closed its doors , because the government made it mandatory to have secular studies!!!! Post marriage men after being in kolel for a few years, all have found gainful employment. Parnossoh is from the Ribboine Shel Oilem, and anyone who doubts that, is not worthy of giving an opinion on any subject!

"The Yeshiva of Valozhin closed its doors , because the government made it mandatory to have secular studies"

Not exactly true. The problem was that the Russian gov't wanted to control the curriculum, not the secular studies by themselves.

"Parnossoh is from the Ribboine Shel Oilem, and anyone who doubts that, is not worthy of giving an opinion on any subject! ”

Yes, but there is Hishtadlut, which includes education and training. You can't harvest a field that you did not plow, sow with seeds, water, etc.

30

 Sep 01, 2011 at 01:27 PM maxedout Says:

Reply to #25  
bubii Says:

so you really think he is making this statement out of thin air just for nothing, you cant be more wrong

"Any Yeshiva boy who wants to can learn just about any trade he wishes".
This statement says it all. Yes, any yeshiva boy that WANTS to.... Problem is that they dont want to. When rebbies brainwash them for years and knock it into their head that its assur to work, why even entertain the thought. Just ask your parents and in-laws for full support, um, sorry, DEMAND it. "ess kumpt mir".

31

 Sep 01, 2011 at 01:31 PM targetcapital Says:

What a great idea. Not only do our children have a Parnosa,they can also be lights of how to do business honestly, and without making a Chelul Hashem.

32

 Sep 01, 2011 at 01:44 PM Vestin Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

This article is written as if this is the fact, and I know whats best and everyone else is wrong. The truth is that the Rambam has one opinion, while othes argue.

As well, their is a difference between an older married person working to support himself, and a young boy in cheder learning how to become a doctor, lawyer etc.

One can never know what will be in the future. Why should we waste the time of a young boy with all sorts of information, when we have no idea what he will be doing as a grown man. For example, we see many people who go to college, only to decide 4 years later that they want to do something else, adn thus they go back to college for another 4 years.

As well, from the time of Matan Torah, the yidden have NOT been learning secular studies, and somehow have been able to manage just fine. Trade schools are not for everyone. They are great for those that can't learn all day, but it is definitly not the "real" way yidden are supposed to be educated.

There is much more to be writtenon the matter, I just want to point out that there are two sides to every coin.

Its clear from jewish history that the Rishonim, Amoraim and generations before were educated. What about the gemorah and mishna's quoted above, that's not good for you?

When Rabbeinu Hakodosh spoke to Antininous, do you think he spoke to him in his yeshivah language, or in clear elucidated terms. The numerous tzadikkim that went to plead for the jewish people before the Roman's or other leaders like Nochum Ish Gam Zu, how do you think they communicated.

Aside from the Tanaim and Amoraim having jobs, Rashi, Rabbeinu Tam, Rabbeinu Gershon, Ramban, Abarbanel, Ibn Ezra, Rosh, Ralbag, Kuzari, Rashba, among many, many others all were well educated in secular studies, science, mathematics, philosophy, etc, and had jobs.

It wasn't until a few hundred years ago that people did nothing but sit and learn. Even then it was only the cream of the crop, the ones with the brightest future. Yes the Vilna Gaon, sat and learned, he did NOTHING else. He was extremely well educated, knowledgeable in science and math (authored math sefer). He wasted no time from learning, and slept 2 hours a day, and learned a whole night.

Its time for our gedolim to come out and say this, its not a secret.

33

 Sep 01, 2011 at 01:43 PM Michael BarDaniel Says:

Someone who is capable of learning every waking hour (a minimum 16-17 hours a day) should not be allowed to work, should be supported - ashreichem and praiseworthy are their supporters. Such people are a tiny minority.
The system is such that you can learn years in yeshiva and kollel without being tested. Rabbi Amsalem is speaking to Yisrael in general. The gemara says many tried like Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai (just learning) and failed but many tried like Rabbi Yishmael (learn and work) and succeeded.
Why is an entire klal being directed as a minority? Imagine telling everyone because Rabi Yochanan could carry a bride on his shoulders everyone should! He was on a level, and don't try it unless you are on a supernal level. Similarly the Torah says "יפה תלמוד תורה עם דרך ארץ" why do people think they can argue with this!
BTW even with working we have an absolute obligation to learn morning and evening. Rambam says that someone who works should learn around 9 hours a day.

35

 Sep 01, 2011 at 01:53 PM chavie friedman Says:

The Avodah in Yiddishkeit is to always find the right balance. No extreeme is good. It is definitely dangerous to expose kids to certain environments. One must use tremendous insight how and when. The main point is that if the system would be different and there would be appropriate ways to "Educate your kid according to his way" society as a whole would benefit and produce ALL kids with an appreciation for Yiddishkeit and true Yorei Shomaim!

36

 Sep 01, 2011 at 01:56 PM PMOinFL Says:

I don't see the debate.

Today's generation thinks it is acceptable to lie to have no formal education, no means of supporting a family, and then lie to the government to get handouts that are designed to be given to those with extreme hardship. The number of educated young men who can earn a living is decreasing dramatically.

I work for a healthcare organization here in FL. A person cannot even work in one of our hospitals as an orderly without having basic computer skills as all of the payroll, and HR-related functions are computer based. Nurses are required to pass a technical competency test as part of their application. So they not only need to be certified in nursing, but must have significant computing experience/knowledge as well.

The funniest part of this debate is when the "no education" types CLAIM that non-frum companies won't hire them, and that is why they are failures in life. Had they only gotten an education and some business schooling, they could have been the one DOING the hiring and providing jobs in the community.

Too many rely on the socialist government, like disgusting liberals. It is high time we are self-sufficient. Too bad too many are too lazy.

37

 Sep 01, 2011 at 01:58 PM shvigger Says:

I wonder what Amsalem does for Parnassah and how he prepared for said Parnassah?

38

 Sep 01, 2011 at 02:00 PM ahavas-yisrael Says:

I've had countless discussions about this issue over the years and i'm sure so have you, How can a young married man feel good about themselves going out into the world without the basic tools needed to communicate with this fast growing andvanced world, we give all this education to our girls then tell them to go out and work, get married to a ben torah have baby's do the cooking cleaning homework with kids while all the time the man of the house is "learning" or in a job that his embrrassed about.
How long do u think till the wife looses all respect for her husbend and then the shalom bayit problems start.
All this so called "learning" or whatever we r doing in the yishevas with our boy's (who's talking about all the dropouts) that just feel so lost because their not cut out for so much learning and look what's going on with our children because of it.
Don't u Rabbonim think it's time we start giving our boy's some kind of education and change all that comes from it in their future, How much better would our homes be when giving them a fighting chance when starting with at least ones DIGNITY CONFIDENCE and so much more that comes with just feeling good with ourself.

39

 Sep 01, 2011 at 02:01 PM shvigger Says:

The Rambam had a wealthy brother who supported him for several years. Does anybody know if this wealthy brother's math studies helped him attain his wealth?

40

 Sep 01, 2011 at 02:02 PM Raphael_Kaufman Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

This article is written as if this is the fact, and I know whats best and everyone else is wrong. The truth is that the Rambam has one opinion, while othes argue.

As well, their is a difference between an older married person working to support himself, and a young boy in cheder learning how to become a doctor, lawyer etc.

One can never know what will be in the future. Why should we waste the time of a young boy with all sorts of information, when we have no idea what he will be doing as a grown man. For example, we see many people who go to college, only to decide 4 years later that they want to do something else, adn thus they go back to college for another 4 years.

As well, from the time of Matan Torah, the yidden have NOT been learning secular studies, and somehow have been able to manage just fine. Trade schools are not for everyone. They are great for those that can't learn all day, but it is definitly not the "real" way yidden are supposed to be educated.

There is much more to be writtenon the matter, I just want to point out that there are two sides to every coin.

"...from the time of Matan Torah, the yidden have NOT been learning secular studies, and somehow have been able to manage just fine"

Do you seriously believe that? I cannot believe that a thinking adult Jew could believe and say such utter rubbish.

Your post must be a Purim Torah. .

41

 Sep 01, 2011 at 02:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

This article is written as if this is the fact, and I know whats best and everyone else is wrong. The truth is that the Rambam has one opinion, while othes argue.

As well, their is a difference between an older married person working to support himself, and a young boy in cheder learning how to become a doctor, lawyer etc.

One can never know what will be in the future. Why should we waste the time of a young boy with all sorts of information, when we have no idea what he will be doing as a grown man. For example, we see many people who go to college, only to decide 4 years later that they want to do something else, adn thus they go back to college for another 4 years.

As well, from the time of Matan Torah, the yidden have NOT been learning secular studies, and somehow have been able to manage just fine. Trade schools are not for everyone. They are great for those that can't learn all day, but it is definitly not the "real" way yidden are supposed to be educated.

There is much more to be writtenon the matter, I just want to point out that there are two sides to every coin.

At Matan Torah the yidden did not learn "secular studies"- what were they to learn? Microbiology which wasn't discovered yet? They did learn, on the other hand, how to be farmers, builders, doctors, as well as other professions that were around there.
And are you saying that gedolim were not "real yidden"? The Chofetz Chaim had a grocery store! Guess he isn't a "real yid" and "can't learn all day".

42

 Sep 01, 2011 at 02:18 PM oiber-chacham Says:

finally a voice of sanity in this insane asylum,that is masquerading itself as authentic judaism,finally, finally someone had the guts to stand up and scream ''the emperror has no clothes'' .this criminaly insane system,of discouraging our young people from getting a secular education,and brainwashing our children that going out to work and earning a living,is something our torah does not want,this has destroyed a whole generation of jews,it was high time someone got up and screamed enough is enough.

43

 Sep 01, 2011 at 02:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

All what his said is right after marriage not in the yeshives where bucurim study most frum yeshives in Europe in the old days was only Torah study

LEARN HISTORY!!! There were only one or two people in every large city in Europe (and in the smaller towns not even this) that were supported by the Klal to learn all day. Most yidden barely knew how to read, never mind learn Gemarah.
Those Yeshivos you talk about in Europe were tiny compared to what we have here. And they were for ALL of European Jewry. There were possibly only a few hundred people who escaped as part of the Mir Yeshiva. Not the thousands that we have today in one yeshiva.

44

 Sep 01, 2011 at 02:24 PM Pinny Says:

Ya gotta love how the anti-Israel chareidim (which is NOT all chareidim) are against learning secular studies and a trade (and -excuse the 4-letter word- WORKing), but then complain about not getting enough financial aid from the state they don't recognize!

45

 Sep 01, 2011 at 02:24 PM alterknaker Says:

Just wondering if rabbi amalem himself has a job besides torah learning,

46

 Sep 01, 2011 at 02:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #27  
MDG Says:

A lot of things are quoted in the name of Gedolim, some of which they said and some not. And just because many people do something does not mean that it was sanctioned by Gedolim. Please find me a Sefer where Gedolim wrote that the Hamoan Am should not learn a trade nor have secular education.

BTW, I disagree with Rabbi Amsalem where he says that college is needed. I think that one needs some secular education and job training, which may or may not include college.

Plumbers, electricians, tailors.. all don't need a "college degree". They do, however, need a certificate from a trade school (where they don't teach you pritzus or anything that contradicts halacha).

47

 Sep 01, 2011 at 02:53 PM BLONDI Says:

Reply to #17  
elhabara Says:

maybe in isreal. however, in america much cheaper and better to live off the goverment. freed medical, hud, food stamps, no taxes, lower yeshivah tuition.
why be a fool and work to pay taxes ?

i truly hope that is some form of humor...that sounds like a parasite, or you can say, live off the parents, and grandparents...hey they worked hard for a reason: "es kumt tzu mir" So many people in their 60s die these days from the stress of supporting numerous married children. once you have a wife and one child, be a man and support your own family.

48

 Sep 01, 2011 at 02:54 PM correction Says:

couldn't be more true... it is a chiyuv for a man to support his wife, as stated in the kesuba. and obviosly the appropriate steps must be taken in advance to prepare yourself, thats basic common sence. Noone is allowed to just rely on a miracle< as it says "ein somchin al hanes" but of course it cannot affect your torah learning either and the right college/trainig must be within the torah guidelines.

49

 Sep 01, 2011 at 02:56 PM BuckyinWisconsin Says:

Wow, don't see that too often. Yasher Koach, but all he is doing is clarifying what is simple economics...the Charedi community is unsustainable in this fashion. The tragedy I have seen is that a lot of young men after thay are married with a child or two really WANT to get a job after kollel, but their secular education stopped at about 4th grade. They are close to functionally illiterate in secular subjects and wash out very quickly from educational programs. It is great to see this Rabbi writing this way. Reserve full time learning for the true scholars among us, everyone else can work for a living and learn at night, like me! 15 years with my chevrusa and 4 siyummim, Brachos, Succah, Makkos, Megilla, and now about half way through Kiddushin. Granted, not a stellar pace, but it is doable adn I am VERY proud of my accomplishments. I also hold a BA and master's degree and work in finance. My boy is in the Yeshivah program at YU after spending two years post high school learning full time in a charedei Yeshivah in E"Y. My girls are all going to go to college, G-d willing, as well, after a year or two at seminary. Girls need to have the ability to earn a parnassah as well, should they G-d forbid ever have to be on their own, or need to contribute to teh bottom line in the family as something other than very low paid secretary or grossly underpaid teacher.

50

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:00 PM elhabara Says:

Reply to #36  
PMOinFL Says:

I don't see the debate.

Today's generation thinks it is acceptable to lie to have no formal education, no means of supporting a family, and then lie to the government to get handouts that are designed to be given to those with extreme hardship. The number of educated young men who can earn a living is decreasing dramatically.

I work for a healthcare organization here in FL. A person cannot even work in one of our hospitals as an orderly without having basic computer skills as all of the payroll, and HR-related functions are computer based. Nurses are required to pass a technical competency test as part of their application. So they not only need to be certified in nursing, but must have significant computing experience/knowledge as well.

The funniest part of this debate is when the "no education" types CLAIM that non-frum companies won't hire them, and that is why they are failures in life. Had they only gotten an education and some business schooling, they could have been the one DOING the hiring and providing jobs in the community.

Too many rely on the socialist government, like disgusting liberals. It is high time we are self-sufficient. Too bad too many are too lazy.

why work when you can get handouts ? in fact, if you are on govt programs you don't have to kill yourself to work and can sit and learn in comfort. This goverment is great for the non-working Use it !

51

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:02 PM BuckyinWisconsin Says:

PMO inFL, we may have disagreed on Mrs. Bachmann, but gotta love ya here.

52

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:11 PM A Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

This article is written as if this is the fact, and I know whats best and everyone else is wrong. The truth is that the Rambam has one opinion, while othes argue.

As well, their is a difference between an older married person working to support himself, and a young boy in cheder learning how to become a doctor, lawyer etc.

One can never know what will be in the future. Why should we waste the time of a young boy with all sorts of information, when we have no idea what he will be doing as a grown man. For example, we see many people who go to college, only to decide 4 years later that they want to do something else, adn thus they go back to college for another 4 years.

As well, from the time of Matan Torah, the yidden have NOT been learning secular studies, and somehow have been able to manage just fine. Trade schools are not for everyone. They are great for those that can't learn all day, but it is definitly not the "real" way yidden are supposed to be educated.

There is much more to be writtenon the matter, I just want to point out that there are two sides to every coin.

We were an agricultural society back in the days of Matan Torah. If these bochurim want to become farmers, kol hakovod. Yidden learned all kinds of trades in the past thousands of years. Were there no tailors, shoemakers, traders, blacksmiths, bakers, etc., before this century? It matters little what it is, but do something to earn a living.

53

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:12 PM A Says:

Reply to #10  
bubii Says:

he is just stating the obvious.

And isn't it pitiful that someone with his stature has to state the obvious?!

54

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:12 PM enlightened-yid Says:

The Charedi World killed Judaism in Israel with their cult-lifestyles that were born in early 20th century. If the Charedi world from the begging practiced authentic Judaism that existed for thousands of years, then 80% of today's Jews in Israel would not turn away from Torah. Israelis see the unauthentic Charedi lifestyle that only burdens the rest of society and does not make any logical sense of fulfill any purpose and think that this is what Judaism is all about. Unfortunately the ship will only sink further, until it reaches the bottom. Charedim can believe in whatever illusions they want, but once Israel runs out of cash to support their existence then every starving family with 6 kids will start to reevaluate their lifestyle choices that were dictated by the "gadolim."
To those that question the value of secular higher education, just look at basic statistics on income and poverty. Math is not an illusion. Charedim and Arabs (both groups that don't value education) live in severe poverty compared to rest of society. Every parent that raises their children to live in this lifestyle are basically robbing them of opportunities that the developed world has to offer.

55

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:14 PM BeKind Says:

Any secular education should be conducive to self-employment. It's extremely difficult for a frum Jew to work in a corporate environment for many reasons. They include shabbos, holidays, tznius, etc.

56

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:17 PM BuckyinWisconsin Says:

Also, the ability to verbally communicate in English without sounding like some mumbling foreigner is essential to success in the workplace or in even interviewing for a job. We stick our children in Yeshivahs for so long, they forget all semblance of English communications, not to mention picking up horrible social skills "learned" in that environement. I will not go into the gory details, but we all know what I am talking about in terms of hygiene, public eating, skin blemishes, dress, etc. These things count in the work world. Maybe they shouldn't, but they do.

57

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:54 PM A Says:

Reply to #56  
BuckyinWisconsin Says:

Also, the ability to verbally communicate in English without sounding like some mumbling foreigner is essential to success in the workplace or in even interviewing for a job. We stick our children in Yeshivahs for so long, they forget all semblance of English communications, not to mention picking up horrible social skills "learned" in that environement. I will not go into the gory details, but we all know what I am talking about in terms of hygiene, public eating, skin blemishes, dress, etc. These things count in the work world. Maybe they shouldn't, but they do.

I want to address the mumbling part of your post. I have noticed that in the past 20 years the boys and girls coming out of yeshivas tend to mumble. It's horrible trying to decipher what is being said and it makes me feel like I'm losing my hearing. They don't have to speak louder, just clearly.

58

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:53 PM Aryeh Says:

When the Yeshivas have a mandatory shnorr campaign as part of the studies, they have gone too far. Children do not need to be taught to beg for change door to door in order to be good Yidden. The privilege of exclusive Torah study must be earned, not made the norm. Too many kolel guys plotz on the same blatt of Gemara for years and never get anywhere but social services. We need more Torah scholars who are wealthy and successful, otherwise we make a chilul Hashem to our secular brothers and sisters who otherwise might make teshuva. There are hungry children sleeping in bathtubs in Boro Park, and on dirt floors in Yerushalayim and not for lack of Torah study.

59

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:47 PM A Says:

Reply to #55  
BeKind Says:

Any secular education should be conducive to self-employment. It's extremely difficult for a frum Jew to work in a corporate environment for many reasons. They include shabbos, holidays, tznius, etc.

I have never had any problem getting off from work for yom tov or leaving early for erev yom tov or erev shabbos when I worked for a corporate firm. In fact, it was easier when I worked for goyish firms than for frum firms. My frum bosses would literally look at the clock and work out how long it should take to get home and how long it should take to shower and get ready for shabbos and then tell me what time I could leave. No extra minute to spare in case a subway got stuck or some other problem. The goyim had more respect for religious observance than the yidden.

60

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:45 PM maxedout Says:

to all you naysayers. what is wrong with touro? there are no pritzus issues there. It's just that you all are so brainwashed by self appointed "gedolim". You are all robots who have no clue how to think for yourselves.

61

 Sep 01, 2011 at 04:21 PM VoiceofReason Says:

Secular education is a MUST. And if you want to support a family, that means a 6-figure salary. Not much work out there pays 6 figures unless one has a decent college education.

It is a national embarassment how many people live, making their lives by taking from taxpayers.

62

 Sep 01, 2011 at 02:47 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #36  
PMOinFL Says:

I don't see the debate.

Today's generation thinks it is acceptable to lie to have no formal education, no means of supporting a family, and then lie to the government to get handouts that are designed to be given to those with extreme hardship. The number of educated young men who can earn a living is decreasing dramatically.

I work for a healthcare organization here in FL. A person cannot even work in one of our hospitals as an orderly without having basic computer skills as all of the payroll, and HR-related functions are computer based. Nurses are required to pass a technical competency test as part of their application. So they not only need to be certified in nursing, but must have significant computing experience/knowledge as well.

The funniest part of this debate is when the "no education" types CLAIM that non-frum companies won't hire them, and that is why they are failures in life. Had they only gotten an education and some business schooling, they could have been the one DOING the hiring and providing jobs in the community.

Too many rely on the socialist government, like disgusting liberals. It is high time we are self-sufficient. Too bad too many are too lazy.

What??? Coming from pmoinLF???

63

 Sep 01, 2011 at 04:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #55  
BeKind Says:

Any secular education should be conducive to self-employment. It's extremely difficult for a frum Jew to work in a corporate environment for many reasons. They include shabbos, holidays, tznius, etc.

Wrong. There are tens of thousands of frum jews working in a corporate environment today that have managed to balance professional demands with yiddeshkeit. If you have good skills, most corporations will accomodate your schedule, especially given the trend towards telecomuting and working flexible hours. Tzinus has become the biggest excuse I've ever seen for just about anyone who is looking for a reason not to work. Please find some other reason to avoid working in what you call a corporate environment.

64

 Sep 01, 2011 at 04:19 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #55  
BeKind Says:

Any secular education should be conducive to self-employment. It's extremely difficult for a frum Jew to work in a corporate environment for many reasons. They include shabbos, holidays, tznius, etc.

if not college a trade school something to earn a living

i hear from many older yidden grumbling that in their old age they still have to work hard to support their son or son in-law and really do not like it

but do not want to rock the boat or say anything since everybody else does it

truthfully what is the debate the Talmud clearly states with no ands if or buts a father who does not teach his son a profession is teaching him how to steal

very true since if one learns all day and lies to get welfare section 8 or wherever that is stealing. If one needs to steal to learn what is the learning really worth

Rabbi Pinchas Eliyahu Horowitz of Vilna was against not learning a trade or profession saying if one only knows how to buy and sell there will be times when business is not so good and then the only way to put food on your table is to steal. today we see how true his words are

every study ever done in the USA shows college grads earn more than non college grads by a large margin. of course exception are always around.

65

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

Plumbers, electricians, tailors.. all don't need a "college degree". They do, however, need a certificate from a trade school (where they don't teach you pritzus or anything that contradicts halacha).

I and thousands of other Yidden have more respect for a working Yiddishe plumber, tailor, electrician, etc... than for a leech that lives off of others hard work.

66

 Sep 01, 2011 at 04:06 PM Anonymous Says:

I read a story in a book once about a Jewish man who wanted to live a celibant lifestyle and never marry. In the end when he met his heavenly court, he was told that had he married, he might have grown even more with our Creator and the Universe. To say that you will not work a job of any particular capacity in your lifetime must indeed be of the same expression. Even the most menial work I have engaged in in my lifetime has indeed been a welcomed situation of adversity and self learning. True we don't all need to do menial work just to be a human being, but consider that the adversity you face in the work place is a growing opportunity in your challenges to learn and adhere to Torah and Jewish fundimentals. This is how we grow and this is how we become a true Jewish leader and strong mind and trustworthy responsible student of all that this creation has to challenge our soul with in life.

67

 Sep 01, 2011 at 04:05 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #55  
BeKind Says:

Any secular education should be conducive to self-employment. It's extremely difficult for a frum Jew to work in a corporate environment for many reasons. They include shabbos, holidays, tznius, etc.

not true you lie

almost all corporation s give off to yiden for all Jewish holidays. maybe you never checked and do not that that

also in the corporate world people dress more tzinuztic than if one works for a small company that is not owned by a yid

do you just make things up, to feel good

68

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:26 PM charliehall Says:

Reply to #13  
anonymous Says:

"College" is not the same as learning a trade.

The things that go with "college" are the problem. There are a number of kosher ways to earn a degree.

I have been looking at the CUNY website thinking of my son and daughter. There is a "core curriculum." Brainwashing, propaganda, pritzus (i.e., certain kinds of literature).

I grew up totally secular and dormed at a very good state university. As a secular American teen, I was not prepared for what I saw and lived among. Or what I read in my textbooks.

Let's make a distinction between college and getting training for a career.

Rambam, Sforno, Rav Hirsch, Rav Hildesheimer, and Rav Soloveitchik all went to university. And I could name a dozen more gedolim if pressed. I'm glad CUNY still has a "core curriculum"; it ensures that graduates will have some knowledge of the most important aspects of the civilization in which we live. Rav Hirsch in particular was particularly outspoken about the value of such an education to Jews.

69

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:27 PM kollelfaker Says:

interesting i heard from cope counselors that many can not write a simple sentence let alone read on grade level yet they need 10k salaries My eldest son learnt in israel for several years to notch yeshivas quietly they helped him get into college and med school they are not foolish they need funds too. their bench warmers arent paying and with lakewood ending secular studies as un necessary what will these illiterates do fix cars computers they need to read for that

70

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:27 PM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

What a bundle of kishka (to be polite). Just about any meaningful profession today (other than waiting on tables at a Chulent Restaurant in BP) does require a college degree. Yes, of course, there are a small percentage of successful entrepreneurs like Bill Gates who didn't graduate but they are probably a tiny number compared to the majority who studied in college. College grads are hired because of they have a degree although many work in fields unrelated to that degree. There is no profession in banking, law, science, medicine, computers, technology etc (i.e. all the fields where they pay decent salaries and there is opportunity for professional growth) that will hire you without a college degree. If you want to work digging ditches, flipping burgers, or selling discounted cameras at a call center, then yes you might find a job without a formal degree if thats the kind of life you want).

Bill Gates did attend college; he just didn't complete his degree. I personally know this because we lived in the same dorm complex.

71

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:42 PM Yidaleh Says:

The lubavitcher Rebbe Ztz"L is considerd by the ultra orthodox community as a seculer who whent to university and who had a worldly understanding, yet he ws clear that there should be no secular studs for the young minds and they should

72

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:33 PM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #16  
Babishka Says:

Most careers today require a college diploma, although you can receive training at a community college instead of a university. Even in the olden days, someone wishing to become a shoemaker, tailor, carpenter, had to train as an apprentice under a master.

Another reason given by Rav Hirsch for secular education: It improves your understanding of Torah! Proof of that is found in the work of Rabbi Dr. Aharon Lichtenstein of RIETS and Yeshivat Har Etzion. If you have never heard of Milton or Blake or Cardinal Newman, three of the most important figures in modern British intellectual history, you will not be able to understand the Torah points he makes.

73

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:32 PM A Says:

Reply to #36  
PMOinFL Says:

I don't see the debate.

Today's generation thinks it is acceptable to lie to have no formal education, no means of supporting a family, and then lie to the government to get handouts that are designed to be given to those with extreme hardship. The number of educated young men who can earn a living is decreasing dramatically.

I work for a healthcare organization here in FL. A person cannot even work in one of our hospitals as an orderly without having basic computer skills as all of the payroll, and HR-related functions are computer based. Nurses are required to pass a technical competency test as part of their application. So they not only need to be certified in nursing, but must have significant computing experience/knowledge as well.

The funniest part of this debate is when the "no education" types CLAIM that non-frum companies won't hire them, and that is why they are failures in life. Had they only gotten an education and some business schooling, they could have been the one DOING the hiring and providing jobs in the community.

Too many rely on the socialist government, like disgusting liberals. It is high time we are self-sufficient. Too bad too many are too lazy.

There are many liberals who are out there working just as or maybe harder than you do. And there are a lot of conservatives who rely on the so-called socialist government for handouts, why don't you call them disgusting? It's a shame, I was agreeing with everything you said up to that point and then your prejudices took over. It's a pity because you often have valid points to make and then end up saying disgraceful things like that.

74

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:31 PM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #16  
Babishka Says:

Most careers today require a college diploma, although you can receive training at a community college instead of a university. Even in the olden days, someone wishing to become a shoemaker, tailor, carpenter, had to train as an apprentice under a master.

Community colleges offer great educations at low cost. My wife started out at a community college, transferred to a four year college after completing the community college associates degree, and then went to medical school.

75

 Sep 01, 2011 at 03:22 PM A Says:

Reply to #23  
InNY Says:

Why Amselam is 100% correct?

Nowadays most children age 20 to 40 rely on their parents one way or the other, when they they marry off their children they go back to the parents for money, It becomes a burden for the parents anyhow.. so basically something is 100% wrong with our system.

and it wont last forever.

It won't even last to the next generation. Unless they have the chutzpah to live off their grandparents because their parents were never able to save a dime.

76

 Sep 01, 2011 at 04:48 PM The_Truth Says:

Reply to #59  
A Says:

I have never had any problem getting off from work for yom tov or leaving early for erev yom tov or erev shabbos when I worked for a corporate firm. In fact, it was easier when I worked for goyish firms than for frum firms. My frum bosses would literally look at the clock and work out how long it should take to get home and how long it should take to shower and get ready for shabbos and then tell me what time I could leave. No extra minute to spare in case a subway got stuck or some other problem. The goyim had more respect for religious observance than the yidden.

I totally agree with you on this point.

While I think most "pro-work" agree that a basic secular education in school is necessary, I don't think that college is necessary for everyone: many can (and do) become entrepreneurs, or tradesmen without a college degree.

Another thing that I have noticed; Generally (as far as I know), the biggest and best speakers and educators in the frum world, (either catering the frum or in kiruv), have a secular education. Those that don't, just don't make it, even working in Chinuch.

77

 Sep 01, 2011 at 04:46 PM yaakov321 Says:

Reply to #36  
PMOinFL Says:

I don't see the debate.

Today's generation thinks it is acceptable to lie to have no formal education, no means of supporting a family, and then lie to the government to get handouts that are designed to be given to those with extreme hardship. The number of educated young men who can earn a living is decreasing dramatically.

I work for a healthcare organization here in FL. A person cannot even work in one of our hospitals as an orderly without having basic computer skills as all of the payroll, and HR-related functions are computer based. Nurses are required to pass a technical competency test as part of their application. So they not only need to be certified in nursing, but must have significant computing experience/knowledge as well.

The funniest part of this debate is when the "no education" types CLAIM that non-frum companies won't hire them, and that is why they are failures in life. Had they only gotten an education and some business schooling, they could have been the one DOING the hiring and providing jobs in the community.

Too many rely on the socialist government, like disgusting liberals. It is high time we are self-sufficient. Too bad too many are too lazy.

Sorry PMO. Today you are drinking too much alka seltzer from Hannity. The Liberalism of today is no different than the liberalism that offered Social Security, Medicare, a Constitution of the American States, Womens right to vote and all the like. Most of these so called "disgusting liberals" are your university leaders. So your entire argument falls apart when you offer your own unsophisticated banter on the "disgusting liberals" that are shaping our society and promoting freedom and tolerance. Good luck. Like the fellow above said, you usually speak some intelligent knowledge but today you are breaking even your own ethics by attacking the very foundation of this nation that you call your home.

78

 Sep 01, 2011 at 04:58 PM chusid Says:

How do I know Mr. (rav) Amsalem is DEAD WRONG!

#1) All the modern, and reform Jews who always jump in 2 slam the real yiden and ehrlicha yiden, are posting their wonderful remarks now as well! My rabbi always thought me that if I wanna know if im right with any halucha or midah, I should look on the so called yiden and does who are far from yidishkeit and be just the opposite from them!
#2) Because we had a lot of heiliga rabbis and rosh yeshivas the past couple hundred years and no1 ever gave us such a twisted p’sak,

79

 Sep 01, 2011 at 04:59 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #39  
shvigger Says:

The Rambam had a wealthy brother who supported him for several years. Does anybody know if this wealthy brother's math studies helped him attain his wealth?

its called yisoscher - zevilin shitfus!

80

 Sep 01, 2011 at 05:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #39  
shvigger Says:

The Rambam had a wealthy brother who supported him for several years. Does anybody know if this wealthy brother's math studies helped him attain his wealth?

any1 knows what rabbi amselan is doing for a living????
since he lectures all of us that we most work!!!

81

 Sep 01, 2011 at 05:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Ironically the holy rebbe of satmer reb yoel ztv"l was also against not earning a living,he only opened his first kollel reluctantly when some of his yungerleit wanted to go to lakewood,

82

 Sep 01, 2011 at 05:05 PM shredready Says:

to all the naysayer

why don't you ask a rov or a godel to critic this article and to write why one should not learn secular studies, and or a profession, and bring reference's from previous gedolem and the Talmud like Rav Chaim Amsalem does. I am sure vin will post it. Why not some rov from Lakewood.


if one really studies the Talmud one can clearly see that they where worldly, studied secular studies science and things like that.

also lets remember the Talmud (both of them) was not written in yiddish, Hebrew, or loshen kodesh but in Aramaic, English of its time (lingo franko) proof they had a secular education

83

 Sep 01, 2011 at 05:19 PM Lawrence M. Reisman Says:

I received a liberal arts degree, went to law school and then took accounting courses to qualify for the CPA exam. No one can accuse me of being anti-secular education. Neither my married son nor any of my four sons-in-law are learning in kollel, so you can't say I'm beating the drums for kollel. That having been said, I agree that a career does not necessarily make college a must. One can go to trade or vocational schools; the problem is finding good ones. I doubt the Rambam or Sforno went to a university, and with all respect to Charlie Hall, I wouldn't hold Rav Aharon Lichtenstein as a model for most of the yeshiva world.. Furthermore, if you look at the Rambam in Hilchos Talmud Torah, he argues for 3 hours a day working and 9 hours a day learning. If you look at the Rambam at the end of Hilchos Shmitta veYovel, he argues for those who pursue a full time devotion to learning.

That having been said, secular education in our yeshivas is a churban. Most boys don't know enough to understand a trade or technical manual, let alone go to college. In fact, most of them can't even say a clear, coherent d'var Torah. At some point, we have to educate boys better.

84

 Sep 01, 2011 at 05:16 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #78  
chusid Says:

How do I know Mr. (rav) Amsalem is DEAD WRONG!

#1) All the modern, and reform Jews who always jump in 2 slam the real yiden and ehrlicha yiden, are posting their wonderful remarks now as well! My rabbi always thought me that if I wanna know if im right with any halucha or midah, I should look on the so called yiden and does who are far from yidishkeit and be just the opposite from them!
#2) Because we had a lot of heiliga rabbis and rosh yeshivas the past couple hundred years and no1 ever gave us such a twisted p’sak,

they did not have too

1 it is self evident
2 this is a new phenomena not working by a majority and to make it a way of life
and please it is muttar to cheat the government so one can learn Torah

85

 Sep 01, 2011 at 05:13 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #78  
chusid Says:

How do I know Mr. (rav) Amsalem is DEAD WRONG!

#1) All the modern, and reform Jews who always jump in 2 slam the real yiden and ehrlicha yiden, are posting their wonderful remarks now as well! My rabbi always thought me that if I wanna know if im right with any halucha or midah, I should look on the so called yiden and does who are far from yidishkeit and be just the opposite from them!
#2) Because we had a lot of heiliga rabbis and rosh yeshivas the past couple hundred years and no1 ever gave us such a twisted p’sak,

your rebbie is correct,

all reform and secular Jews feel it is wrong to cheat, to lie, to get welfare and section 8 and food stamps yet we see that many do in the frum world. In addition that their mosdos, schools not engage in fraud to get money and we see the frum yeshivas do that (when is that last time one heard a reform yeshiva engaging in fraud)

i agree with you

thanks I could not have said it better

or maybe the chazal knew better and saw it coming and that is why they said if you do not teach your son a profession or trade you are teaching him how to steal

correct they where

86

 Sep 01, 2011 at 05:38 PM Yidaleh Says:

its important to distinguish between the two things of earning a parrnosa which is a chiuv and you can't argue with all the mikirous, on the other hand who says we in conclusion YES we most work! but not as the way of the nations we have to make unique type of kalim ad hashem will pour in his brachaneed the secular program for making parnossa you might have to work at it in a diffrent way but yiden were always creative in finding a livelihood even when the sufficed was not in their favor parraoh decreed that the girls should live this means that ththey should be educatedin the ways of mitzraim,

87

 Sep 01, 2011 at 05:40 PM Lawrence M. Reisman Says:

Reply to #85  
shredready Says:

your rebbie is correct,

all reform and secular Jews feel it is wrong to cheat, to lie, to get welfare and section 8 and food stamps yet we see that many do in the frum world. In addition that their mosdos, schools not engage in fraud to get money and we see the frum yeshivas do that (when is that last time one heard a reform yeshiva engaging in fraud)

i agree with you

thanks I could not have said it better

or maybe the chazal knew better and saw it coming and that is why they said if you do not teach your son a profession or trade you are teaching him how to steal

correct they where

Having worked for major accounting firms and had my own practice, I can tell you that there are plenty of reform and secular Jews who lie, steal, and cheat. For those of us who are old enough, the words "garment center" are self-explanatory. A "reform yeshiva" engaging in fraud? The Solomon Schechter high school in Brooklyn (does it even exist anymore?) had a major regents cheating scandal in the 1980s. And you can be certain that the reform and secular Jewish youth in such prestigious schools as Harvard, Yale, etc., engage in the same term paper buying and selling that everyone else there does. Frum Jews don't have a monopoly on stealing, etc., we just don't feel as strongly that it's wrong.

88

 Sep 01, 2011 at 06:00 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #87  
Lawrence M. Reisman Says:

Having worked for major accounting firms and had my own practice, I can tell you that there are plenty of reform and secular Jews who lie, steal, and cheat. For those of us who are old enough, the words "garment center" are self-explanatory. A "reform yeshiva" engaging in fraud? The Solomon Schechter high school in Brooklyn (does it even exist anymore?) had a major regents cheating scandal in the 1980s. And you can be certain that the reform and secular Jewish youth in such prestigious schools as Harvard, Yale, etc., engage in the same term paper buying and selling that everyone else there does. Frum Jews don't have a monopoly on stealing, etc., we just don't feel as strongly that it's wrong.

are you joking you are comparing regent cheating to massive lunch program fraud, youth core fraud, special aid program frauds the pell grant fraud just to name a few

if all you can muster is the regent story than my point is clearly true

89

 Sep 01, 2011 at 06:06 PM The-Macher Says:

Reply to #72  
Charlie Hall Says:

Another reason given by Rav Hirsch for secular education: It improves your understanding of Torah! Proof of that is found in the work of Rabbi Dr. Aharon Lichtenstein of RIETS and Yeshivat Har Etzion. If you have never heard of Milton or Blake or Cardinal Newman, three of the most important figures in modern British intellectual history, you will not be able to understand the Torah points he makes.

The fruits of Har Etzion are the boys who fryed out the moment they started in Columbia and other secular universities. Secular education for parnosso makes sense. Dragging the Torah into the world of CARDINAL Newman is a bizayoin and it is no wonder Lichtenstein's laddies are the biggest fryouts.

90

 Sep 01, 2011 at 06:37 PM Yidaleh Says:

Reply to #76  
The_Truth Says:

I totally agree with you on this point.

While I think most "pro-work" agree that a basic secular education in school is necessary, I don't think that college is necessary for everyone: many can (and do) become entrepreneurs, or tradesmen without a college degree.

Another thing that I have noticed; Generally (as far as I know), the biggest and best speakers and educators in the frum world, (either catering the frum or in kiruv), have a secular education. Those that don't, just don't make it, even working in Chinuch.

to the best of my knowledge Chabad shluchim have littel to no secular education how they succeeded is a miracle!

91

 Sep 01, 2011 at 07:00 PM PMOinFL Says:

Reply to #50  
elhabara Says:

why work when you can get handouts ? in fact, if you are on govt programs you don't have to kill yourself to work and can sit and learn in comfort. This goverment is great for the non-working Use it !

The problem is, that it is not "the government" from whom these leaches are taking money... it is their hard-working neighbors who lead HONEST lives and who work hard to support their families (sometimes barely making ends meet themselves) who are being FORCED to give their money to these liars.

It sickens me to see a perfectly able-bodied man REFUSE to get an education and REFUSE to work, then he'll lie to the government to get as much money as he can. We are supposed to respect him because he learns all day? His whole parnossoh is lies. His whole life is telling one lie after another!

If you CHOOSE not to be educated or formally trained to provide a living for your family, and/or CHOOSE not to work and live off the hard work of your neighbors by having the government forcibly take their money from them and give it to you (assuming you are not severely disabled or incapacitated), you are a dishonest person who deserves no respect from ANYONE.

These are the same people who will tell you that "parnossoh comes from H'". Yes... MY parnossoh comes from H". YOUR parnossoh comes from the government taking what H" gave me and giving it to you.

92

 Sep 01, 2011 at 07:43 PM Hershl Says:

What will the frum do when all government aid ends under the incoming Republicans which you all love to support?

I welcome people not getting an education. Depend on the rest of us to support you? That day is soon to end. What will you do with your ten kids, worn out wife, and major debt?

No health care, no education, no future.

All in the name of Torah.

What utter morons.

93

 Sep 01, 2011 at 07:49 PM The-Macher Says:

Reply to #90  
Yidaleh Says:

to the best of my knowledge Chabad shluchim have littel to no secular education how they succeeded is a miracle!

And most of the ones who started since the availability of the PC taught themselves everything they need to use it and use it on a level higher than many trained pros do. I do have a secular education, but because I think the way the Rebbe encouraged us to think and not the way my ivory tower professors deadened my mind, I taught myself everything I use in my business, including PC skills. What's more, the one language I tried to learn in college is the one I don't remember anymore because I was too busy trying to ace the grammar tests to bother learning how to speak the language. It's one thing if you do have a specific professional course of study - then you should go. But if you want to go into business, just do it- I regret every moment of bad thinking and beis kisse knowledge I picked up with my Ivy League liberal arts degree.

This year I'm finally going to teach myself to catch up with all the 21 year old bochurim, and even girls, who know how to do professional looking graphics because I'm sick of having to explain to designers what I want for a half-hour and then taking their questions over the course of a week rather than sitting down for an hour and doing it.

94

 Sep 01, 2011 at 08:31 PM PMOinFL Says:

Reply to #73  
A Says:

There are many liberals who are out there working just as or maybe harder than you do. And there are a lot of conservatives who rely on the so-called socialist government for handouts, why don't you call them disgusting? It's a shame, I was agreeing with everything you said up to that point and then your prejudices took over. It's a pity because you often have valid points to make and then end up saying disgraceful things like that.

By "liberal" I did not mean "liberal people". I meant "liberal" programs like the socialist garbage that has infected our community like a virus. I'm sorry if that was not clear.

96

 Sep 01, 2011 at 08:34 PM yaakov321 Says:

Reply to #92  
Hershl Says:

What will the frum do when all government aid ends under the incoming Republicans which you all love to support?

I welcome people not getting an education. Depend on the rest of us to support you? That day is soon to end. What will you do with your ten kids, worn out wife, and major debt?

No health care, no education, no future.

All in the name of Torah.

What utter morons.

The problem Hershl is that today the arrogance du juor is to discriminate against anyone who seems remotely to be a "liberal". Liberalism is the new scape goat for everything that is wrong with today. Forget blaming the jews, the gays and all the others from the past. Today they blame the liberals and even many of them as you can read from this forum are those of us who were scapegoated in the past. Funny how some of us go round and round in life.

97

 Sep 01, 2011 at 08:35 PM Lawrence M. Reisman Says:

Reply to #88  
shredready Says:

are you joking you are comparing regent cheating to massive lunch program fraud, youth core fraud, special aid program frauds the pell grant fraud just to name a few

if all you can muster is the regent story than my point is clearly true

Shredready:

I wasn't joking. I've seen more than my share of geneiva and gezeila by non-frum Jews. You asked rhetorically if a "reform yeshiva" had ever been caught cheating. It had. However, the overwhelming consensus in the non-frum world is that such things are wrong. In the frum world, they're considered necessary if not desirable. You don't have to idealize the non-frum to make your point about our failings. Our failings are real and widespread, and are wrong no matter what the rest of the world does.

98

 Sep 01, 2011 at 08:42 PM PMOinFL Says:

Reply to #77  
yaakov321 Says:

Sorry PMO. Today you are drinking too much alka seltzer from Hannity. The Liberalism of today is no different than the liberalism that offered Social Security, Medicare, a Constitution of the American States, Womens right to vote and all the like. Most of these so called "disgusting liberals" are your university leaders. So your entire argument falls apart when you offer your own unsophisticated banter on the "disgusting liberals" that are shaping our society and promoting freedom and tolerance. Good luck. Like the fellow above said, you usually speak some intelligent knowledge but today you are breaking even your own ethics by attacking the very foundation of this nation that you call your home.

Liberalism is liberalism. The very idea that dishonest liars in our own community (and others) can "cheat" the system and live high on the horse on MY money is proof of failure.

There are people who LEGITIMATELY need help. Believe me, I see people in our hospitals who are physically incapable of providing any care for themselves at all. They deserve our support, our respect and our money. I am HAPPY to take care of those who are physically incapable of taking care of themselves.

What have liberals brought us that is of value to us? Government handouts with MY money? Thanks, but no thanks.

If you think the "foundation" of this nation is welfare, food stamps and WIC for lazy, uneducated people who are too dumb and ignorant to work, you are deluded.

I will tell you this much, the Constitution makes no mention of "medicare" or "social security" or "food stamps". You can buy into 'liberalism' if you want to, but the fact is that you are happy to see the government forcibly take money away from me and give it to other people who CHOOSE to be ignorant, who CHOOSE to be lazy, and not support their families. Yay for you!

FYI: Hannity is an uneducated, lying propagandist.

99

 Sep 01, 2011 at 08:52 PM A Says:

Reply to #76  
The_Truth Says:

I totally agree with you on this point.

While I think most "pro-work" agree that a basic secular education in school is necessary, I don't think that college is necessary for everyone: many can (and do) become entrepreneurs, or tradesmen without a college degree.

Another thing that I have noticed; Generally (as far as I know), the biggest and best speakers and educators in the frum world, (either catering the frum or in kiruv), have a secular education. Those that don't, just don't make it, even working in Chinuch.

And I agree with your points. Not everyone is made for college and it's a waste of time and money for some to attend. Learn a trade, work hard, and with mazel one can become very successful.

100

 Sep 01, 2011 at 08:57 PM Lawrence M. Reisman Says:

Reply to #88  
shredready Says:

are you joking you are comparing regent cheating to massive lunch program fraud, youth core fraud, special aid program frauds the pell grant fraud just to name a few

if all you can muster is the regent story than my point is clearly true

I wasn't joking. You asked a rhetorical question if anyone had heard of cheating at a "reform yeshiva." In any case, I've seen personally numerous cases of non-frum Jews lying, stealing, cheating, etc. The difference is that most of the frei world considers it wrong, while too many of the frum consider it at best a necessary evil and at worst desirable.

You don't have to idealize the non-frum world. As bad as they are, we have our problems and they are serious. Let's focus on that: all of us.

101

 Sep 01, 2011 at 08:58 PM A Says:

Reply to #78  
chusid Says:

How do I know Mr. (rav) Amsalem is DEAD WRONG!

#1) All the modern, and reform Jews who always jump in 2 slam the real yiden and ehrlicha yiden, are posting their wonderful remarks now as well! My rabbi always thought me that if I wanna know if im right with any halucha or midah, I should look on the so called yiden and does who are far from yidishkeit and be just the opposite from them!
#2) Because we had a lot of heiliga rabbis and rosh yeshivas the past couple hundred years and no1 ever gave us such a twisted p’sak,

I would guess that a good 90% (or more) of the people who post on this site are frum and not reform.
Any yid that dares to say that he is a "real" and "ehrlicha" yid and another yid is not should be ashamed of himself.

104

 Sep 01, 2011 at 09:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

This article is written as if this is the fact, and I know whats best and everyone else is wrong. The truth is that the Rambam has one opinion, while othes argue.

As well, their is a difference between an older married person working to support himself, and a young boy in cheder learning how to become a doctor, lawyer etc.

One can never know what will be in the future. Why should we waste the time of a young boy with all sorts of information, when we have no idea what he will be doing as a grown man. For example, we see many people who go to college, only to decide 4 years later that they want to do something else, adn thus they go back to college for another 4 years.

As well, from the time of Matan Torah, the yidden have NOT been learning secular studies, and somehow have been able to manage just fine. Trade schools are not for everyone. They are great for those that can't learn all day, but it is definitly not the "real" way yidden are supposed to be educated.

There is much more to be writtenon the matter, I just want to point out that there are two sides to every coin.

Exactly, not everyone is born to learn either. At least with secular studies you have a chance in this world. These guys end up living off others whether it is family or the tax payers. I dont understand your comment about matan torah. Many did not learn but they had what the gemara calls an oomnan, you know a trade that your dad is suppose to teach you.

105

 Sep 01, 2011 at 09:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
shvigger Says:

"doctors, tailors, launderers, plowers, carpenters, land measurers, shoe makers and repairmen, wood choppers, beer makers, bakers, smiths, trap makers, engravers, skin tanners, mill workers, scribes, pit diggers, bundle and beam transporters, wool merchants and weavers."

Of all trades listed, the only one requiring immersion is secular education TODAY is doctoring. Doctoring in the old times didn't require one attend college, university, or even study medicine in a formal setting.

This theory that "secular education" will free you from poverty is another myth fanned by higher education fat-cats. Any Yeshiva boy who wants to can learn just about any trade he wishes.

Amsalem is just another voice of a modern orthodox wannabe Rabbi.

Yet they live off others

106

 Sep 01, 2011 at 09:32 PM bananaboat Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

This article is written as if this is the fact, and I know whats best and everyone else is wrong. The truth is that the Rambam has one opinion, while othes argue.

As well, their is a difference between an older married person working to support himself, and a young boy in cheder learning how to become a doctor, lawyer etc.

One can never know what will be in the future. Why should we waste the time of a young boy with all sorts of information, when we have no idea what he will be doing as a grown man. For example, we see many people who go to college, only to decide 4 years later that they want to do something else, adn thus they go back to college for another 4 years.

As well, from the time of Matan Torah, the yidden have NOT been learning secular studies, and somehow have been able to manage just fine. Trade schools are not for everyone. They are great for those that can't learn all day, but it is definitly not the "real" way yidden are supposed to be educated.

There is much more to be writtenon the matter, I just want to point out that there are two sides to every coin.

first of all in this day and age the only way to garuntee that your child will have a chance to make parnasa for his family is by giving him a college education. Unfortunately you may not think it the torah way but in this day and age theres no choice. If as a parent you deny your child such an education since you think you know better then if your children suffer from parnasa problems you should feel as though its on your responsibilty to deal with it.
also once someone has a bachelors which is acheived in four years and they decide to change major they never loose that. so therefore, it doesnt matter what they decide to because once they have their bachelors they will have a greater chance of supporting their family

107

 Sep 01, 2011 at 09:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #98  
PMOinFL Says:

Liberalism is liberalism. The very idea that dishonest liars in our own community (and others) can "cheat" the system and live high on the horse on MY money is proof of failure.

There are people who LEGITIMATELY need help. Believe me, I see people in our hospitals who are physically incapable of providing any care for themselves at all. They deserve our support, our respect and our money. I am HAPPY to take care of those who are physically incapable of taking care of themselves.

What have liberals brought us that is of value to us? Government handouts with MY money? Thanks, but no thanks.

If you think the "foundation" of this nation is welfare, food stamps and WIC for lazy, uneducated people who are too dumb and ignorant to work, you are deluded.

I will tell you this much, the Constitution makes no mention of "medicare" or "social security" or "food stamps". You can buy into 'liberalism' if you want to, but the fact is that you are happy to see the government forcibly take money away from me and give it to other people who CHOOSE to be ignorant, who CHOOSE to be lazy, and not support their families. Yay for you!

FYI: Hannity is an uneducated, lying propagandist.

"What have liberals brought us that is of value to us? Government handouts with MY money? Thanks, but no thanks."

Um, dear PMO...
Try the UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION for starters. IS that helpful to a guy like you?

108

 Sep 01, 2011 at 09:38 PM bananaboat Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

This article is written as if this is the fact, and I know whats best and everyone else is wrong. The truth is that the Rambam has one opinion, while othes argue.

As well, their is a difference between an older married person working to support himself, and a young boy in cheder learning how to become a doctor, lawyer etc.

One can never know what will be in the future. Why should we waste the time of a young boy with all sorts of information, when we have no idea what he will be doing as a grown man. For example, we see many people who go to college, only to decide 4 years later that they want to do something else, adn thus they go back to college for another 4 years.

As well, from the time of Matan Torah, the yidden have NOT been learning secular studies, and somehow have been able to manage just fine. Trade schools are not for everyone. They are great for those that can't learn all day, but it is definitly not the "real" way yidden are supposed to be educated.

There is much more to be writtenon the matter, I just want to point out that there are two sides to every coin.

i also feel very strongly against men learning and their wives sweating their heads off to put food on the table. The parnasa of the families should fall squarly on the shoulder of the man. If a family gives up everything for torah to the point that they doent have hot running water then they are giving the wrong message to their children.

109

 Sep 01, 2011 at 09:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #37  
shvigger Says:

I wonder what Amsalem does for Parnassah and how he prepared for said Parnassah?

Its Rabbi learn to have a bit respect. Second, he is working as a Rav that is his job, unlike many yeshiva guys that dont have jobs. The least these kollel guys can do is write seforim, become rabbiem or tutors wouldn't be a bad idea. But they run on the idea that its absolutely assur to use torah as a means for parnossah. Its very unfortunate that people are seeing the economic hardship in this recession but they are adamant that education for a job is useless chas v'shalom lol.

110

 Sep 01, 2011 at 09:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #52  
A Says:

We were an agricultural society back in the days of Matan Torah. If these bochurim want to become farmers, kol hakovod. Yidden learned all kinds of trades in the past thousands of years. Were there no tailors, shoemakers, traders, blacksmiths, bakers, etc., before this century? It matters little what it is, but do something to earn a living.

You know its interesting, there mesechot in gemara that talk about agriculture, what a butcher can take, or how a store can take certain profit margins on purchases, or how much the baker has to give to the cohen. Obviously the gemara acknowledged that many of klal yisroel worked.. You are 100% correct

111

 Sep 01, 2011 at 10:10 PM Anonymous Says:

to all those mechanchim that have brainwashed our children into believing that work is a dirty word you will all have to give a din vecheshbon one day. how can they assur yeshiva lite from going to collegel but urge them to marry girls who are in college and will earn adecent parnossa. If college is so evil for men why is it ok for girls to go. Maybe its because the boys are not taught to live in the real world but live in a fantasy world that all their needs will be taken care of by their parents ,wives and inlaws. I always noticed that my daughters have much stronger haskafas then my long time learning boys, know hilchos kashrus and hilchos shabbos much better then most boys who barely learn 5 blatt over a whole winter zman. Previous comments were correct that we are raising bochurim and yungerlite that are both illiterate and lazy and would rather survive on handouts fron family and Uncle sam then earn are honest living.

112

 Sep 01, 2011 at 10:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #67  
shredready Says:

not true you lie

almost all corporation s give off to yiden for all Jewish holidays. maybe you never checked and do not that that

also in the corporate world people dress more tzinuztic than if one works for a small company that is not owned by a yid

do you just make things up, to feel good

No he is typical of lemming that believes everything his rabbeim tel him. They love to create false flags just like our enemies do all the time e.g Hammas, Hizbolah etc.

113

 Sep 01, 2011 at 10:00 PM PatersonMan Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

This article is written as if this is the fact, and I know whats best and everyone else is wrong. The truth is that the Rambam has one opinion, while othes argue.

As well, their is a difference between an older married person working to support himself, and a young boy in cheder learning how to become a doctor, lawyer etc.

One can never know what will be in the future. Why should we waste the time of a young boy with all sorts of information, when we have no idea what he will be doing as a grown man. For example, we see many people who go to college, only to decide 4 years later that they want to do something else, adn thus they go back to college for another 4 years.

As well, from the time of Matan Torah, the yidden have NOT been learning secular studies, and somehow have been able to manage just fine. Trade schools are not for everyone. They are great for those that can't learn all day, but it is definitly not the "real" way yidden are supposed to be educated.

There is much more to be writtenon the matter, I just want to point out that there are two sides to every coin.

Please read "Hilchos Talmud Torah" from the Ba'al HaTanya, chapter 3, Halachos #2,3,4 & 5, especially Halacha #4. You are only partially correct.

114

 Sep 01, 2011 at 10:37 PM dcgruen Says:

My father A'H told me the Jews survived because they had a trade as a backup to all learning and education.

115

 Sep 01, 2011 at 11:02 PM PMOinFL Says:

Reply to #93  
The-Macher Says:

And most of the ones who started since the availability of the PC taught themselves everything they need to use it and use it on a level higher than many trained pros do. I do have a secular education, but because I think the way the Rebbe encouraged us to think and not the way my ivory tower professors deadened my mind, I taught myself everything I use in my business, including PC skills. What's more, the one language I tried to learn in college is the one I don't remember anymore because I was too busy trying to ace the grammar tests to bother learning how to speak the language. It's one thing if you do have a specific professional course of study - then you should go. But if you want to go into business, just do it- I regret every moment of bad thinking and beis kisse knowledge I picked up with my Ivy League liberal arts degree.

This year I'm finally going to teach myself to catch up with all the 21 year old bochurim, and even girls, who know how to do professional looking graphics because I'm sick of having to explain to designers what I want for a half-hour and then taking their questions over the course of a week rather than sitting down for an hour and doing it.

I was starting to see your point... until you mentioned your "liberal arts degree". The only reason to get a "liberal arts degree" is to become the very thing we are talking about.... a non-productive leach on society.

When we talk about getting an education or learning a trade, we mean to get it for purposes of making a parnossoh. A "liberal arts degree" is almost as worthless as an IOU from Bernie Madoff.

You should be glad you were smart enough to realize that you needed skills and that you had the ability to learn them on your own. Most people don't have that ability.

You write-off your education as "worthless". What I can tell you is that the language you use is meaningful, grammatically correct (mostly), and shows a high-level of literacy. That puts you head and shoulders above 90% of bochurim today. Most of the bochurim I meet today can't write a simple, grammatically correct sentence, let alone try to communicate in a professional environment.

Perhaps, had you gone to a design school instead, you would be on the same level as those you wish to emulate today. What a shame it took you so long to figure out what you wanted to do.

Good luck going forward!

116

 Sep 01, 2011 at 11:09 PM PMOinFL Says:

Reply to #107  
Anonymous Says:

"What have liberals brought us that is of value to us? Government handouts with MY money? Thanks, but no thanks."

Um, dear PMO...
Try the UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION for starters. IS that helpful to a guy like you?

If you think the founders of the United States, and the authors of the Constitution were "liberals", especially in the modern sense of the term, you are DELUDED.

Why was there no concept of welfare, or WIC, or foodstamps, or medicare, or any other government-paid social program?

Our founding fathers were more LIBERTARIAN than anything else. Our entire founding was based on the concept of SMALLER government and LESS TAXES. Did you forget that, or do you just like using big words that you don't really know the meaning of.

117

 Sep 01, 2011 at 11:51 PM yaakov321 Says:

Reply to #115  
PMOinFL Says:

I was starting to see your point... until you mentioned your "liberal arts degree". The only reason to get a "liberal arts degree" is to become the very thing we are talking about.... a non-productive leach on society.

When we talk about getting an education or learning a trade, we mean to get it for purposes of making a parnossoh. A "liberal arts degree" is almost as worthless as an IOU from Bernie Madoff.

You should be glad you were smart enough to realize that you needed skills and that you had the ability to learn them on your own. Most people don't have that ability.

You write-off your education as "worthless". What I can tell you is that the language you use is meaningful, grammatically correct (mostly), and shows a high-level of literacy. That puts you head and shoulders above 90% of bochurim today. Most of the bochurim I meet today can't write a simple, grammatically correct sentence, let alone try to communicate in a professional environment.

Perhaps, had you gone to a design school instead, you would be on the same level as those you wish to emulate today. What a shame it took you so long to figure out what you wanted to do.

Good luck going forward!

The idea that a nation could leave the crown of the monarchy and begin on its own is a LIBERAL idea. The rest is a process. Get used to it. Liberalism is true and a science.
To say that a liberal arts degree is of no value, you might want to do your homework. I can guarantee that many productive americans have liberal arts degrees. Writers, politicians, teachers, historians and all the like. Perhaps you do not value the contributions of these types of individuals in todays culture and society.
I would suggest that you end your anti liberalism tirade and stick to your conservative values. They are not opposed to one another.
Liberalism is being defamed and I would believe that this will be a new fronteir for the anti defamation practices to visit in the future.

118

 Sep 01, 2011 at 11:58 PM joseph Says:

Chacha Ovadia Yosef already booted this bum from Shas.

119

 Sep 02, 2011 at 12:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Seems to be getting quite heated, but anyway here goes :-)

- It is very difficult to get away from corporations nowadays which means that you need an education in order to be able to earn a living functioning in a corporate environment

- You are more likely to be able to earn a living with a umnas kalah unekiyah in a professional environment

- The primary responsibilities of a married man are
a) Support his wife and children
b) Learn torah

120

 Sep 02, 2011 at 12:29 AM Solid1 Says:

He is absolutely right! This weeks parsha states that the officer who was in charge of the army first turned back those who built a new house, than those who planted a new vineyard and finally those who where recently engaged (airusin). The talmud points out that, that is the correct order. First someone must have the means of a livelihood, and only then are they supposed to get married. The talmud further points out that in the curses recorded in parshas ki sovo, the order is reversed. First it states that a person will get engaged and then build a house and then plant a vineyard. Meaning that if one gets married first and only then seeks a livelihood, this itself is a curse! Take it from someone who is 31 and has 4 children bli ayin hara, and is only now trying very hard to make it through college and earn a degree. All because I went through a flawed chareidi yeshiva system, which claims that it is based upon the talmud, when in fact it really is going against the talmud, and causing the non chareidi people to disrespect us, a huge chilul Hashem!

121

 Sep 02, 2011 at 02:10 AM sechelyoshor Says:

Reply to #87  
Lawrence M. Reisman Says:

Having worked for major accounting firms and had my own practice, I can tell you that there are plenty of reform and secular Jews who lie, steal, and cheat. For those of us who are old enough, the words "garment center" are self-explanatory. A "reform yeshiva" engaging in fraud? The Solomon Schechter high school in Brooklyn (does it even exist anymore?) had a major regents cheating scandal in the 1980s. And you can be certain that the reform and secular Jewish youth in such prestigious schools as Harvard, Yale, etc., engage in the same term paper buying and selling that everyone else there does. Frum Jews don't have a monopoly on stealing, etc., we just don't feel as strongly that it's wrong.

Folks,if you can, check our RSRh's Collected Writings, Volume 7, page 12. There Hirsch explains that the Jews in Europe a few hundred years agog were stuck in their ghettos. There was no policy to keep away from studying about the world, that was forced upon us. And he says that before that time, we did indeed study about nature, science, etc. He says shas if filled with evidence about how much chazal were interested in those subjects - so that even when all we could do was learn and have a few jobs that were allowed, shas reminded us of earlier times when we were able to study these things.

BTW, Volozhin did have secular studies. It closed down when the Russians demanded they learn Torah only at night, and very light type learning. When the book "My Uncle the Netziv" came out, it was banned. You know why? Because it spoke the truth. Why must we perpetuate lies and they base our conduct on these lies?

Read Tenuas Hammusar and you will see that in Kelm they learned secular studies. I guess it was a Modern Orthodox Yeshiva, eh?

122

 Sep 02, 2011 at 01:53 AM sechelyoshor Says:

Reply to #87  
Lawrence M. Reisman Says:

Having worked for major accounting firms and had my own practice, I can tell you that there are plenty of reform and secular Jews who lie, steal, and cheat. For those of us who are old enough, the words "garment center" are self-explanatory. A "reform yeshiva" engaging in fraud? The Solomon Schechter high school in Brooklyn (does it even exist anymore?) had a major regents cheating scandal in the 1980s. And you can be certain that the reform and secular Jewish youth in such prestigious schools as Harvard, Yale, etc., engage in the same term paper buying and selling that everyone else there does. Frum Jews don't have a monopoly on stealing, etc., we just don't feel as strongly that it's wrong.

Solomon Schecter of Brooklyn closed up a long time ago. That Regents maayseh happened in 1975 iirc. It was by students who were heads of the student council and had access to the office... And btw, the Regents were sold all over the state, including quite a few frum places.

123

 Sep 02, 2011 at 02:08 AM jkier74 Says:

No. 15
You say that he is going against the Gedolim, so he is wrong. Then today's Gedolim are going against the derech of previous Gedolim. In the previous generation, the vast majority of talmidim went on to college. We see this from the fact that B"H we have today such a plethora of frum, erliche doctors, lawyers, accountants, and professionals. All the yeshivos allowed college attendance. So today's Gedolin must all be wrong!
The bottom line is the Rav is right. We live in a world where we need parnoso and every person must be educated from his younger years in order to give him the best opportunity possible to choose his career or parnoso. Not to rely on others for donations. Today's Rabbonim changed the derech of the previous generation. I remember my yeshivah even giving us time off when we had finals in college.
Also, the level of today's secular studies in our yeshivahs is terrible. It is a far cry and a dismal attemp at education. I am ashamed at what my kids learn in their secular education. They are so ignorant of subjects as compared to my days. What can you expect when the teachers are the products of the same lousy education. We had professional PS teachers.

124

 Sep 02, 2011 at 05:24 AM The-Macher Says:

Most of these so called "disgusting liberals" are your university leaders. So your entire argument falls apart when you offer your own unsophisticated banter on the "disgusting liberals" that are shaping our society and promoting freedom and tolerance.
--
The university leaders who sit in their ivory towers shape nothing, although they try to brainwash students into their views that are clouded by their never having accomplished a thing in the real world. The world is being shaped by people like Steve Jobs, Sergei Brin, Larry Page, Mark Zuckerberg, etc. Some of them went to college, some dropped out.

The one sphere that I would like to see government take over is education, although perhaps for-profit schools that just teach what you need to get ahead might be another solution. Enough fluff courses with a political agenda - enough of this campus left-wing political activism, often speared by professors whose chairs are paid for by Arab oil money, that has made some campuses centers of pro-terrorist and anti-Semitic activity.

125

 Sep 02, 2011 at 08:12 AM Ezra Says:

This is so true!Kol Hakavod, I wish him the biggest Hatzloche!Unfortunately he will be sooner or later banned for being an Apikoires!

126

 Sep 02, 2011 at 09:04 AM hadtocomment Says:

Having actually read the article and all of the comments, I felt that I too had to comment. There seems to be a lot more agreement than disagreement on the issues. A true masmid, who is learning and growing in yeshiva should be encouraged to continue along that path. And someone in yeshiva who finds learning difficult or feels that long-term learning is not for him, should be encouraged to find a college program and career path that is more suitable for him.

Many yeshivas give credits toward college, so that only 3 years remain to get one's degree. Also, many yeshivas have programs where one learns in the yeshiva while going to college in the afternoons or evenings. This keeps the bochur in a Torah environment, as opposed to a very spiritually unhealthy college dorm or fraternity environment.

In my experience in Israel, most people who are not suitable for long-term learning, and the sacrifices it entails, rarely stay more than a few years in kollel.

In addition, those who have left full-time learning rarely learn more than 2 hours a night. Learning becomes severely de-emphasized, though I do know a few who seem to balance the two nicely, learning 6 hours and working 6 hours.

127

 Sep 02, 2011 at 10:33 AM Lawrence M. Reisman Says:

Reply to #121  
sechelyoshor Says:

Folks,if you can, check our RSRh's Collected Writings, Volume 7, page 12. There Hirsch explains that the Jews in Europe a few hundred years agog were stuck in their ghettos. There was no policy to keep away from studying about the world, that was forced upon us. And he says that before that time, we did indeed study about nature, science, etc. He says shas if filled with evidence about how much chazal were interested in those subjects - so that even when all we could do was learn and have a few jobs that were allowed, shas reminded us of earlier times when we were able to study these things.

BTW, Volozhin did have secular studies. It closed down when the Russians demanded they learn Torah only at night, and very light type learning. When the book "My Uncle the Netziv" came out, it was banned. You know why? Because it spoke the truth. Why must we perpetuate lies and they base our conduct on these lies?

Read Tenuas Hammusar and you will see that in Kelm they learned secular studies. I guess it was a Modern Orthodox Yeshiva, eh?

With all due respect to Rav Hirsch, his philosophy of Torah im Derech Eretz doesn't work on a widespread scale, any more than full-time learning. The best evidence for this is that from the day Rav Hirsch died until his kehilla went up in flames on Kristallnacht, there was a steady retreat from Torah im Derech Eretz. Today, it is almost totally absent, even from KAJ. (Don't equate it with going to college!)

With regard to Volozhin, I don't dispute the presence of secular studies. However, there was another issue with Volozhin, which is that by the time it closed, half the students there were apikorsim. The Russian government's dictat provided a good excuse for the gedolim to do what they needed to anyway, which was to close it down.

128

 Sep 02, 2011 at 10:46 AM The-Macher Says:

Reply to #115  
PMOinFL Says:

I was starting to see your point... until you mentioned your "liberal arts degree". The only reason to get a "liberal arts degree" is to become the very thing we are talking about.... a non-productive leach on society.

When we talk about getting an education or learning a trade, we mean to get it for purposes of making a parnossoh. A "liberal arts degree" is almost as worthless as an IOU from Bernie Madoff.

You should be glad you were smart enough to realize that you needed skills and that you had the ability to learn them on your own. Most people don't have that ability.

You write-off your education as "worthless". What I can tell you is that the language you use is meaningful, grammatically correct (mostly), and shows a high-level of literacy. That puts you head and shoulders above 90% of bochurim today. Most of the bochurim I meet today can't write a simple, grammatically correct sentence, let alone try to communicate in a professional environment.

Perhaps, had you gone to a design school instead, you would be on the same level as those you wish to emulate today. What a shame it took you so long to figure out what you wanted to do.

Good luck going forward!

We are saying the same thing. I am saying that only education which is geared toward a specific role in the workplace is worthwhile. If I were better at math, I'd have studied computer science which includes knowledge that I do use in business. Whether what I learned then would help me learn PHP today is another story.

It took me years to get away from the type of conformist thinking I picked up there. Had I left in mid-stream to learn Torah full-time for a few years, I would have been better off in every way.

On the other hand, had I followed the crowd and gone to law school, I would have perhaps found that what I learned as an undergraduate was pertinent in some way, albeit probably more to academic success than to future professional success. I am aware that Torah is considered a valid undergraduate credential by some law schools but you do have to speak and write English a bissel besser fin Lipa to study law

I'm not learning graphic design as a profession. I'm learning it because when I can't find what I want in this world from someone else, I have to know how to make it myself. That includes everything from lokshen kugel to a website.

129

 Sep 02, 2011 at 10:51 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #117  
yaakov321 Says:

The idea that a nation could leave the crown of the monarchy and begin on its own is a LIBERAL idea. The rest is a process. Get used to it. Liberalism is true and a science.
To say that a liberal arts degree is of no value, you might want to do your homework. I can guarantee that many productive americans have liberal arts degrees. Writers, politicians, teachers, historians and all the like. Perhaps you do not value the contributions of these types of individuals in todays culture and society.
I would suggest that you end your anti liberalism tirade and stick to your conservative values. They are not opposed to one another.
Liberalism is being defamed and I would believe that this will be a new fronteir for the anti defamation practices to visit in the future.

You mistake liberal with left. Liberal indeed means (or once meant) less government interference but now it is misused as a synonym for left. Left is just replacing monarchic tyranny with the tyranny of the have-nots who don't want to get ahead running the lives of those who do want to get ahead and work hard to do so.

And learning and then forgetting the confusing history of the French Revolution did not help me in any aspect of my life. What's more, I could have learned just as much about it in the same beis kisse where I taught myself to read Italian.

130

 Sep 02, 2011 at 10:54 AM BuckyinWisconsin Says:

This has been a great thread to read. The overwhelming feeling seems to be that the artilce was spot on. My only issue is, we are seeing comments from people who are on the internet, which in itself means that they are of a certain stature, either using it for work or even for information and news (hopefully in only Kosher ways). so, we are not even seeing the true cohort group that does not use the internet, which I think represents the truly hard core Chareidi. It is this group that is the most egregious in its reliance on parasitic government handouts. The pure economics fo the matter is that it will not be able to be sustained, either here in the U.S or anywhere, even in lovely I never have to work Europe. This Rabbi is on the cutting edge of thinking and I applaud him fully.

131

 Sep 02, 2011 at 12:44 PM Lawrence M. Reisman Says:

Reply to #123  
jkier74 Says:

No. 15
You say that he is going against the Gedolim, so he is wrong. Then today's Gedolim are going against the derech of previous Gedolim. In the previous generation, the vast majority of talmidim went on to college. We see this from the fact that B"H we have today such a plethora of frum, erliche doctors, lawyers, accountants, and professionals. All the yeshivos allowed college attendance. So today's Gedolin must all be wrong!
The bottom line is the Rav is right. We live in a world where we need parnoso and every person must be educated from his younger years in order to give him the best opportunity possible to choose his career or parnoso. Not to rely on others for donations. Today's Rabbonim changed the derech of the previous generation. I remember my yeshivah even giving us time off when we had finals in college.
Also, the level of today's secular studies in our yeshivahs is terrible. It is a far cry and a dismal attemp at education. I am ashamed at what my kids learn in their secular education. They are so ignorant of subjects as compared to my days. What can you expect when the teachers are the products of the same lousy education. We had professional PS teachers.

The comment that "All the yeshivos allowed college attendance. So today's Gedolin must all be wrong!" is itself wrong. As a rule, college attendance was allowed, if discouraged in NYC yeshivos (Mir being the major exception) while yeshivos out of down prohibited college attendance (Ner Israel being the exception there). Rav Aharon Kotler, an opponent of college, was willing to tolerate it in NYC yeshivos, but he wanted out of town to be free of it, hence his anger when Ner Israel started its program with Loyola University. What has happened is that NYC yeshivos have become more against college while out of town yeshivos have maintained their traditional opposition (Ner Israel again being the exception).

As to your comment that "the level of today's secular studies in our yeshivahs is terrible" I couldn't agree more. And the terrible thing is that the learning of limudei kodesh hasn't really improved as a result. In fact, one could argue it's gotten worse as well!

132

 Sep 02, 2011 at 02:07 PM natie Says:

Reply to #24  
Sense Says:

The fact is the Ramabm was the biggest Torah scholar in the past 1000 years, and Vloshizn yeshiva learned Torah based on the Ramabam, and what did the Ramabam do??

HE was a Doctor. and a philosopher.

THE RAMBAM WROTE THE WHOLE MISHNAH TORAH !!!! yes, he was also a doctor... a tiny bit on the side....

133

 Sep 02, 2011 at 03:07 PM A Says:

Reply to #94  
PMOinFL Says:

By "liberal" I did not mean "liberal people". I meant "liberal" programs like the socialist garbage that has infected our community like a virus. I'm sorry if that was not clear.

Thank you for clearing that up. I guess my problem is that far too many people on this board spit out the word "liberal" as if everything associated with this word is evil. I'm glad to read this was not the case in this instance.

134

 Sep 02, 2011 at 03:33 PM Lawrence M. Reisman Says:

Reply to #132  
natie Says:

THE RAMBAM WROTE THE WHOLE MISHNAH TORAH !!!! yes, he was also a doctor... a tiny bit on the side....

So the Rambam "was also a doctor... a tiny bit on the side....” Have you gone through the Rambam's time records to determine how much time he spent learning, how much time studying philosophy, and how much time practicing medicine?

135

 Sep 02, 2011 at 04:56 PM rAaron Says:

Mr. Reisman, the point it is that he was the gadol hador, and even he set aside time for work. It seems rather obvious that the greatest tzadik shouldn't be investing as much time as every other person

136

 Sep 02, 2011 at 06:29 PM Lawrence M. Reisman Says:

Reply to #135  
rAaron Says:

Mr. Reisman, the point it is that he was the gadol hador, and even he set aside time for work. It seems rather obvious that the greatest tzadik shouldn't be investing as much time as every other person

Conversely, those of us who are lesser lights should not be spending as much time learning as the Rambam did.

137

 Sep 03, 2011 at 05:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #134  
Lawrence M. Reisman Says:

So the Rambam "was also a doctor... a tiny bit on the side....” Have you gone through the Rambam's time records to determine how much time he spent learning, how much time studying philosophy, and how much time practicing medicine?

The Rambam was known as a first rate physician and even took into his care some of the moslem leaders of the day. The fact of his fortune is irrelevant to this story. The fact is that you can not be a true orthodox jew if you do not pursue a business or occupation as well as Torah. There is no Torah in the hands of a man who does not seek to improve society in any other way and this includes the market place as well as the political arena or the public square.

138

 Sep 03, 2011 at 09:25 PM Lawrence M. Reisman Says:

Reply to #137  
Anonymous Says:

The Rambam was known as a first rate physician and even took into his care some of the moslem leaders of the day. The fact of his fortune is irrelevant to this story. The fact is that you can not be a true orthodox jew if you do not pursue a business or occupation as well as Torah. There is no Torah in the hands of a man who does not seek to improve society in any other way and this includes the market place as well as the political arena or the public square.

The comment to which I replied averred that the Rambam was a doctor "a tiny bit on the side." This was what I was questioning. If you bother to read my posts, you will notice that I'm not disagreeing with those who believe the kollel model is wrong for nearly all Jewish men. However, when you say that "you can not be a true orthodox jew if you do not pursue a business or occupation as well as Torah. There is no Torah in the hands of a man who does not seek to improve society in any other way" you've gone too far. Again, if you look at the end of the Rambam's Hilchos Shmitta veYovel, you will see that he approves of the kollel model for some. However, that "some" is not the 95% that prevails today.

139

 Sep 03, 2011 at 10:07 PM mutti Says:

Reply to #134  
Lawrence M. Reisman Says:

So the Rambam "was also a doctor... a tiny bit on the side....” Have you gone through the Rambam's time records to determine how much time he spent learning, how much time studying philosophy, and how much time practicing medicine?

the rambam himself described his schedule in a letter. Towards the end of his life he served as a doctor for the royalty of egypt full time. When he was younger and supported by his brother he wrote the mishnah torah. After his brother died he began to use his medical degree which he had already attained earlier.
Read the letter: "I dwell at Fostat and the sultan resides at Cairo; these two places are two Sabbath days' journey distant from each other. My duties to the sultan are very heavy. I am obliged to visit him every day, early in the morning."
After returning he reports: "Patients go in and out until nightfall, and sometimes even, I solemnly assure you, until two hours or more in the night. I converse with and prescribe for them while lying down from sheer fatigue; and when night falls, I am so exhausted that I can scarcely speak." Igeret HaRambam vol II pg 550.

140

 Sep 04, 2011 at 10:44 AM Naftush Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

All what his said is right after marriage not in the yeshives where bucurim study most frum yeshives in Europe in the old days was only Torah study

Yes. In the old days -- say, around 1900 -- several thousand "bucurim" studied only Torah in "frum yeshives." They were handpicked for excellence from a population of nearly ten million Jews on the continent.

141

 Sep 06, 2011 at 12:32 PM PMOinFL Says:

Reply to #117  
yaakov321 Says:

The idea that a nation could leave the crown of the monarchy and begin on its own is a LIBERAL idea. The rest is a process. Get used to it. Liberalism is true and a science.
To say that a liberal arts degree is of no value, you might want to do your homework. I can guarantee that many productive americans have liberal arts degrees. Writers, politicians, teachers, historians and all the like. Perhaps you do not value the contributions of these types of individuals in todays culture and society.
I would suggest that you end your anti liberalism tirade and stick to your conservative values. They are not opposed to one another.
Liberalism is being defamed and I would believe that this will be a new fronteir for the anti defamation practices to visit in the future.

Liberal Arts and "Liberalism" are not the same thing. In fact, they are not even remotely related. A "Liberal Arts" is essentially a "general knowledge" degree. It means you have studied many subjects but did not master any of them or study any of them at an advanced level.

That being said, there are people with no education at all who are wildly successful. Bill Gates himself never completed his secondary education.

We all know people who are successful without formal education, but they are few and far between.

Most of us will not be Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. Most of us will not be business owners or entrepreneurs. Most of us will seek employment from others. Those people with extensive training and education (whether achieved through college, trade school, or even self-study) will have the best opportunities for providing a parnossoh for their families. Those who dilly-dally through their formative years will find themselves fighting for chinuch jobs. For the 90% who cannot make a living in chinuch, they are not qualified to do anything more than mop toilets.

Your ignorance is astounding.

FYI: Leaving the monarchy was act of LIBERTARIANISM, not liberalism.

142

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