New York – AP Report: NYC Jewish Women Want To Join All-male EMT Group

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    In this Nov. 9, 2011 photo, Yochevev Lerner, right, demonstrates cardiopulmonary resuscitation technique to Hasidic attorney Rachel Freier during a women's-only CPR training session in the Borough Park section of New York.  Freier and Lerner are part of a group of ultra- Orthodox Jewish women who propose forming an all-female unit to join the all-male Hatzolah Volunteer Ambulance Corps to assist women in childbirth or who suffer gynecological emergencies.   Freier said the proposal stems from a need for the emergency services to adhere to the Orthodox Jewish community’s modesty customs that call for the sexes to avoid physical contact unless they are related. (AP Photo/Kathy Willens)New York – Most Orthodox Jewish women avoid touching men except direct relatives. They don’t sit next to men on buses or even at weddings. They have separate swimming hours at indoor pools. But for an emergency birth, Orthodox Jewish women will usually turn to the all-male volunteer ambulance corps known as Hatzolah.

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    Now a group of women in one of the country’s largest Orthodox Jewish communities is proposing to join up with Hatzolah as emergency medical technicians to respond in cases of labor or gynecological emergencies.

    The proposal for a women’s division has stirred up criticism within Orthodox Jewish circles, with one well-known blog editorializing that it amounts to a “new radical feminist agenda.” And when a prominent elected local official, Assemblyman Dov Hikind, spoke about it on his weekly radio show, he was criticized for even bringing the subject up.

    Rachel Freier, a Hasidic attorney who is representing the women in the Borough Park neighborhood of Brooklyn, said there is a need for emergency services that adhere to the community’s customs of modesty, calling for the sexes to avoid physical contact unless they are related.

    “It has nothing to do with feminism,” Freier said. “It has to do with the dignity of women and their modesty.”

    She is careful to avoid framing the proposal as a critique of Hatzolah, whose work she says they respect. Instead, she says it is a matter of reclaiming a “job that has been the role of women for thousands of years” — that of midwife. “We are so proud of Hatzolah,” she said. But, she added, “they can’t understand what a woman feels like when she is in labor.”

    The volunteer ambulance corps was founded by Rabbi Herschel Weber in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, in the 1960s in response to a perceived delay in responding to emergency calls made by Jewish communities. Today Hatzolah, a Hebrew word that translates as “rescue” or “relief,” has dozens of affiliates around the world, each of them operating independently and often in close coordination with the community they serve. Policies, such as whether women can volunteer, are usually set locally by each affiliate.

    It is unclear how many Hatzolah affiliates allow women to volunteer. But in Israel, for instance, United Hatzalah, which responds to more than 112,500 calls per year, has volunteers who are both male and female, as well as secular and Jewish, according to its website.

    And the new division being proposed in Brooklyn by the women Freier represents — it would be known as the Ezras Nashim, Hebrew for “women’s section” — would be modeled after a program created more than a year ago in New Square, N.Y., a small, insular Orthodox Jewish community in New York City’s northern suburbs.

    But a program for women, with women volunteers, in Borough Park would be far more ambitious in scope and size. Besides being one of the biggest Orthodox Jewish communities in the country, if not the world, the neighborhood had the city’s highest birth rate in 2009 with 26.7 per 1,000 people, according to the Department of Health. That is a lot of babies that need to be delivered.
    In this Nov. 9, 2011 photo, Yocheved Lerner demonstrates cardiopulmonary resuscitation technique during a women's-only CPR training session in the Borough Park section of New York.  Lerner is part of a group of Orthodox Jewish women proposing that an all-female unit  join the all-male Hatzolah Volunteer Ambulance Corps to assist women in childbirth or suffering gynecological emergencies.  The proposal stems from a need for emergency services to adhere to the Orthodox Jewish community’s modesty customs that call for the sexes to avoid physical contact unless they are related. (AP Photo/Kathy Willens)
    Yocheved Lerner, 49, is one of the women who would like to work as a volunteer for a newly formed all-women Hatzolah division in Brooklyn.

    A state-certified emergency medical technician and mother herself, she said her group has a list of about 200 trained Orthodox Jewish women who could respond to medical calls in the neighborhood.

    “There are strict rules between men and women, except in the case of Hatzolah,” she said. “The problem is that any number of men might respond to a call on Hatzolah.” That has been a source of “tremendous embarrassment” for some women, she said.

    “It’s quite unfortunate that it’s been the case when seven or eight men have responded to a woman in labor call,” she said. “If birth is imminent, that’s how many people are watching. And it’s a very, very troubling situation for a woman.”

    She said a core group of about five women had spearheaded the proposal and that it is drawing wider support. She emphasized that in no way did they want to or expect to work alongside the men of Hatzolah, suggesting they could have their own ambulances available to them.

    “We don’t want to be socializing with the men of Hatzolah,” she said.

    Chevra Hatzalah, a registered nonprofit, serves much of metropolitan New York City, including Borough Park. They dispatch about 50,000 calls a year and have 1,200 volunteers, said its CEO, Rabbi David Cohen.

    Interviewed recently about the women’s proposal, Cohen said he had not heard from the group of women directly but had read about their proposal.

    Nevertheless, he declined to answer specific questions about it.

    “I really haven’t talked to the people. I don’t know what they want exactly,” he said, adding that Hatzolah’s four-member rabbinical board released an internal memo saying that they should not engage in discussions on the matter.

    He said a similar proposal had been rejected about 25 years ago — and that nothing had changed since then. “We have an internal statement basically saying we are continuing our policy,” he said.

    Heshy Jacobs, a member of Chevra Hatzalah’s executive board, told the popular Orthodox Jewish blog Vos Iz Neias that adding women could affect response time.

    “There are many things at which women are superior, but when it comes to speed and physical strength, which are both of the essence in a medical emergency, it is a proven fact that men have an advantage,” Jacobs told VIN News in September. “Additionally we already have systems in place to get our responders in place as quickly as possible. …By introducing women into the scenario, you are adding another layer to the process and you are talking about a situation where a delay of seconds can literally cost lives.”

    Renee Ghert-Zand, a contributor to a blog on women’s issues, Sisterhood, published by the Jewish publication the Forward, said the refusal to allow women to volunteer for Hatzolah was an example of discrimination against women.

    “Women have been increasingly marginalized from public life and from public view under the pretext of modesty,” she said. “They’re saying it’s not modest for women to give emergency care. I see absolutely no reason why that should not happen. There are women who are trained in the medical profession.”

    Freier said in an email that she had attempted to reach Hatzolah’s CEO and set up a meeting for July or August. “The initial plan was for me to meet with Hatzolah and explain the need for women to join,” she said. However, I was told that the policy of women not joining Hatzolah was set years ago.”

    Undeterred, she said she is discussing the matter with rabbinical leaders in the community.

    “We’re just trying to make a great organization even better,” she said. “We’re not filing a complaint. We’re coming with a suggestion.”


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    169 Comments
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    12 years ago

    Fact is most women go to male doctors by their own choice when having babies. If they can keep two diferent groups and use the womens group strictly for women in labor,maybe. But to mix the married men and married women in ambulances all night is dangerous and will only lead to more divorces. Its playing with fire and let our Torah sages deal with it.

    12 years ago

    Long overdue. Male HAtzolah members are not immune from yetzer horah. We need female EMT’s.

    TorahTruth
    TorahTruth
    12 years ago

    This is not a simple issue as the real issues have little to do with Tznius. As someone who spent many years on Hatzolah in Washington Heights, where we did allow women to be members, I have a unique perspective. The issues in the Heights were due to not having an adequate number of men in the area during day time calls and the Rabbanin allowed women to answer calls in the daytime. I can also attest, having delivered several children, it is uncomfortable for the member as well as the patient, especially in a small community where everyone knows one an other. That being said, there is a practical issue that concerns me. The first rule of emergency aide is speed to the call. I worry that if there was an “Ezras Nashim” women would insist on a women EMT and not the closest available member or worse, the would send away a male who responded to the call insisting on a women instead. This could be an issue of Pekuach Nefesh. I would urge this to be well thought out before anything like this is implemented. Not every great idea makes sense.

    SammyL
    SammyL
    12 years ago

    I’m no expert. My first reaction is: as long as lives are not put in danger it’s a good idea. If lives are put in danger it’s a bad idea. Now let’s let the experts decide the impact. Perhaps there are other issues that I’m sure other posters will think of.

    12 years ago

    “IF IT AINT BROKEN DONT FIX IT” dont re invent the wheel
    so far( past 35 years) hatzola is doing a great job and as far as the complaint of having 8 men at a birth, facts bear otherwise at most their are bet 2-4 members in the room not more.
    if these woman want to start their own ambulance squad kol hakovod who ever wants to call them for women related calls bevkasha but dont force yourself onto an organization that has a certain way of running and come to change the status quo

    CountryYossi
    CountryYossi
    12 years ago

    I have NO problem with women joining hatzolah but lets get down to reality…Hatzolah members are on the road or in shul or at work 95% of the time..When they recieve a emergency call they drop every thing and usually get to a call within 90 seconds-5 minutes …A women volunteer wouldnt be called only on a child birth emergency..The female EMT is probably at work or at home doing her daily routine home care..Now when a call comes in she needs to grab a jacket grab her keys and run to get her car from the driveway and rush to a call which is about 2 miles from her home..Now if this happens in the morning between 8-10 am or afternoon 3-5 pm when streets are clogged to tha max i believe she will get there when the baby is delivered….
    If anyone feels uncomfortable with Hatzolah they have the option of calling 911 and a paramedic fromMaimoneedes or NYFD usually get there within 7 minutes at the max.
    Why is Mrs, Frier making such a big deal over this when there is other options….

    cherub
    cherub
    12 years ago

    The precedent that this would set is a slippery slope. First it would cause people who are ok with men responding (if they consider the men more capable just like women use men doctors) to be coerced into using the women because of being labeled as a tznius issue, then when male responders have a call they may hesitate if the patient is a women, because it is now labeled a tznius issue.
    I do agree that there could be room for a separate all women’s volunteer emergency response team unafiliated with the Hatzalah EMT response team a modeled after the old time midwife who came to delivery and similar to midwives who do it today as a practice .by keeping it unaffiliated, people will see it as just another chesed group like doula volunteers and it won’t cause a any of the above mentioned issues.

    chesed72
    chesed72
    12 years ago

    Totally agree with #2 and #3, let them have a choice if they want female with separate a number for labor emergency only, no 1 is immune from the yetser hora, and men don’t belong there, and definitely not join the hatzolah, make 2 organizations.

    12 years ago

    After Rebitzen Freier will have her way,”EMS” will mean “Emergency Midwife Service”……..

    Mark Levin
    Mark Levin
    12 years ago

    I despise these leftist leaning women who mish zich aran where they don’t belong. The article is there to stir the pot & that’s what got done. If women in labor are supposedly embarrassed when they call hatzloa & a bunch of men come running to help them in all hours of the day & night – within minutes – let them go call a cab like an ayno yehudi & see what happens.

    cbdds
    cbdds
    12 years ago

    I will not comment on right and wrong vis a vis halacha, there are others more knowledgeable.
    I will relate to the beginning of Hatzoloh of Flatbush. I was about 20, lived near the ambulance on Ave M and was a science student. I asked to be allowed to train and assist. I was told an emphatic NO. Instead they took a local grocer to drive the ambulance, two weeks after he first got a drivers license. His driving in the snow was a terrible spectacle, it might have costed lives!
    Months later they did accept an unmarried young man my age. I guess he had more pull.
    Today I am a married health professional. I still remember the story whenever I see so many frum young women in Flatbush with Hatzoloh placards on their dashboard. If women are not accepted to Hatzoloh why are all these placards being misused?

    SandmanNY
    SandmanNY
    12 years ago

    It’s a good idea for women to participate in Hatzolah. Much better for tznius for the women. I approve.

    seichelsays
    seichelsays
    12 years ago

    as a women, I’d be mortified to have local frum men by a birth. I’ve heard from other women who feel the same. its a busha, & a womens feelings should be taken into account. there has to be a solution to make everyone semi happy, but by not even bothering to discuss it, they are certainly not gona find one. that’s not mentshlichkeit. at least try!!

    SherryTheNoahide
    SherryTheNoahide
    12 years ago

    “…one well-known blog editorializing that it amounts to a “new radical feminist agenda.”

    What?! Are they for real?! (lol)

    I would think a modest woman would appreciate seeing *another* fellow frum Jew showing up to take care of her needs! I think women wanting to be available for other women shouldn’t even be a problem!

    What is the issue here?!

    ALLAN
    ALLAN
    12 years ago

    I have always been under a clear impression that the fabric of what Hatzolah is about is saving a Jewish life and rendering care so that no life is lost. That said… shouldn’t the issue of Tznius fall to the back burner and the safe delivery of a new Jewish life take presidence. Things can and do go wrong during what were expected to be normal deliveries.
    If I were in severe life threatening distress I really wouldn’t care who came to help…just that they come and come quickly.

    Satmar
    Satmar
    12 years ago

    i agree with the idea, but 1st we have to see if the rabonim who r incharged of hatzolah agree, we need daas torah

    nombody
    nombody
    12 years ago

    I wi reiterate what a couple of other commenter stated: the most important factor here is that qualified medical personnel arrive as quickly as possible to treat people in emergency situations. If this causes one woman to wait longer for female EMTs to arrive instead of letting men who arrived first start dealing with them, then this effort could cost lives. If I’m not mistaken, the Gemara described a chasid shoteh as a man who will not save a drowning woman out of fear of violating the issur of shomer negia

    Secular
    Secular
    12 years ago

    fascinating topic

    Firstly: It’s admirable and commendable that more people want to help and volunteer in Hatzoloh, an organization that does phenomenal work Yasher Koach to all!

    However, there are multiple issues involved in expanding Hatzolo to include women.

    1) Yichud problems, not only as it pertains to women riding with men, but women who go on calls and treat and transport male patients may also encounter Yichud problems.

    2) Even if there is to be a Women only Obstetric team, the fact that there maybe a delay in locating that team or deferring to that team; may in fact be detrimental to mother and baby, when precious moments are vital.

    3) Regarding Shabbos and Pikuach Nefesh. It is clear from the Poskim, that if there is to be chillul Shabbos it should be done by MEN who are well versed in Halacha. This for two reasons: a) To ascertain what is DeOraisa and what is D’Rabanan etc. and b) So that people realize to importance of Pikuach Nefesh in so much as the chillul Shabbos is done by MEN and not women or children, where one could erroneously conclude that Pikuach Nefesh does not override shabbos.

    4)…to be continued

    Butterfly
    Butterfly
    12 years ago

    I am not saying yes or no but what I am suggesting is that ALL women learn CPR!! It is a MUST!! While you are waiting for Hatzollah you can save a life!! I took the CPR course years ago when my parents were elderly and my first was just born!! I wanted to know it JUST IN CASE!! You never know when you need it!! I think this is what the women should start with and then maybe– MAYBE, go from there!!

    ShlomoH
    ShlomoH
    12 years ago

    I don’t understand the big problem. When the women go into labor aren’t their husbands with them? So what If there are other Hatzolah members there too? What are they embarrassed of? When they have their baby in the hospital, there are plenty of men around. Gimme a break!! Puhleeze…..

    eigner
    eigner
    12 years ago

    All those commenting about women being slow, weak should be keep their comments to themselves. There are plenty women in the marines, delta force etc.
    The issue here is. Right ALL men have a yeitzer horra. Therefore Hatzolah has an achrayis to make sure that they don’t end up working on such calls. Then sitting with these same women a couple times a day/week for 10/20 minutes on the way back to the cars. Discussing the rights/wrongs of such nature calls.
    I for 1 would not let my spouse join under such setting.
    On the other hand to open a new separate organization. By all means!!!
    It’s a no brainer!!!!
    Just don’t force yourself on Hatzolah, Stop destroying them.

    newtransplant
    newtransplant
    12 years ago

    It is actually a wonderful idea, Hatzolo here in Manchester won’t attend home births if they don’t actually have to, so a few females on board wouldn’t be a bad idea, even if they are only there for emergency births it would be great! Go for it Mrs Freier

    UseYourHead
    UseYourHead
    12 years ago

    How can anyone “stop” them from doing this? It’s a free country, they can start their own EMS organization if the existing Hatzoloh won’t accept them. Anyone who thinks there is something “unfrum” or “untzniyus” about having women respond to medical emergencies involving other women is either a chauvinist, an idiot, or a chauvinistic idiot.

    Secular
    Secular
    12 years ago

    4) On a common sense note: The talmud states, that one who refrains from saving a woman drowning in a river is a chassid shoteh. Similarly in cases of life and death issues of perceived Tznius are secondary or non issues.

    5) No one is immune from the Yetzer Hora, true, but women aren’t immune either.

    6) Most Hatzoloh members are bnei Torah, Yirei shamayim. trying to to do the right thing.

    7) It seems that obstetric Hatzolo calls are rare. Even more rare, is the woman in actual Labor. For all other cases where exams are not really necessary, it seems superfluous to have women’s team when the patient can transport herself to the hospital and so much more so when they have a male physician in charge of their care.

    8) Hatzolo…Keep up the good work.

    MINBP
    MINBP
    12 years ago

    British Study: Half Of All Pregnant Women Could Give Birth At Home Safely

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/25/england-study-home-births_n_1113122.html

    chavie
    chavie
    12 years ago

    I, who is an average person, have discussed this issue with many other average women. I haven’t yet met any woman who is comfortable with the concept of hatzolah men delivering their babies. As wonderful as hatzolah is, if we now have an option to have women do it, you bet it is preferred! The negative comments posted are very obviously by hatzolah members themselves. Mrs Freier is sincerely a community activist who selflessly puts herself in the line of fire for the good of our community needs and we should all appreciate it!

    shtill
    shtill
    12 years ago

    Most of you are missing the point. The rabbanim are concerned that once you have females trained as EMT’s they will be utilized even when the call would not be of the nature they were trained for. Say someone collapses in shul.. In walks mrs Freier to the mens section to administer CPR… Of course at that point it would be the right thing because of pickuach nefesh, but why put them into such a position.

    Robert
    Member
    Robert
    12 years ago

    In matters as this one, both sides have valid claims and make cogent arguments.

    the one issue i have not seen discussed is the matter of cost and financing what might become essentially a second parallel ambulance corps.
    funds are tight in all areas of our world today and ofcourse money spent on hatzollah is well worth it in my opinion. setting up a female run ob/gyn emergency system might make theoretical sense to some, but it also requires seperate administration, duplicate payroll for non-volunteers, additional expensive equipment ( do you know much a properly equipped ambulance costs) ?

    eventually they might go to the next level and then totally seperate the sexes.
    ie mehadrin only ambulances one system for men and one for women…

    maybe its luxury we can afford?
    maybe there is a better and more cost effective option?
    i am not making a value judgment as to whats right or best, just that it might be expensive on a communal level.

    Secular
    Secular
    12 years ago

    # 34

    RambaM hilchos Shabbos Chapter 2 halacha 3:

    כשעושים דברים האלו אין עושין אותן לא ע”י נכרים ולא ע”י קטנים ולא ע”י עבדים ולא ע”י נשים כדי שלא תהא שבת קלה בעיניהם. אלא על ידי גדולי ישראל וחכמיהם. ואסור להתמהמה בחילול שבת לחולה שיש בו סכנה שנאמר אשר יעשה אותם האדם וחי בהם ולא שימות בהם. הא למדת שאין משפטי התורה נקמה בעולם אלא רחמים וחסד ושלום בעולם. ואלו האפיקורוסים שאומרים שזה חילול שבת ואסור עליהן הכתוב אומר גם אני נתתי לכם חוקים לא טובים ומשפטים לא יחיו בהם

    The Maggid Mishne:
    כשעושין דברים וכו’. ברייתא שם וגיר’ ההלכות והגאונים ואין עושין דברים הללו לא ע”י נכרים ולא ע”י קטנים אלא בגדולי ישראל ואין אומרים לעשות דברים הללו לא ע”י נשים ולא ע”י נכרים מפני שמצטרפין לדעת אחרת. ומה שכתב רבינו כדי שלא תהא שבת קלה בעיניהם נראה שהוא פירוש למה שאמרו מפני שמצטרפין לדעת אחרת ואע”פ שכלל רבינו עמהם קטנים ונכרים אין הטעם הזה אלא לנשים ועבדים

    Similarly look at the shulchan aruch and mishna Berurah.

    In addition Obstetric calls may be perceived by some as less urgent if they are relegated to a women’s team, and that is certainly not acceptable.

    Your issue is with the RambaM and the Shulchan Aruch (and the Gemara) not me…

    I’m all for equal pay

    Pre-Med
    Pre-Med
    12 years ago

    I posted a comment when this idea first come up on vosizneias, and I think it pays to be repeated. Opening a branch of frum female EMT’s will fill an important need within our community. Whether it will be exclusively for women in labor, or for regular emergency responses, like successfully instituted in other jewish community, it is something that we should support! Its a little embarrassing to see that some people have such backward and low outlook on women and their role within our community and our torah! I really hope the negative and misogynistic comments represent a very minor and uneducated part of the otherwise beautiful community. I can only hope that once this program is instituted and successful will people realize how wonderful it is.

    missyid
    missyid
    12 years ago

    Not only do I have a clue in Hilchos Shabbos – I am a woman involved in the start up of Hatzalah in a Midwestern city with a very reputable posek. I do not need your input. The only reason that Females are currently not responders has to do with the the way in which male responders are together on call waiting to be dispatched. Women in our city are trained to be dispatchers and that includes much that has to do with being “machalel shabbos” while taking phone calls on shabbos and yom tovim and dispatching the responders. The whole concept of pikuach nefesh is really one that absolves you from putting “that” much thought into the concept of being mechalel shabbos. Even if a call does not seem “life threatening” per se – according to reputable poskim the responders still go on a call and dispatchers still make the call because you do not want a future case of someone hesitant to call hatzalah because you determined the last time they called that it was not a matter of pikuach nefesh. Unless you sit down with a reputable Posek over these matters as it relates to hatzalah – do not quote me your sources.

    Sherree
    Sherree
    12 years ago

    Maybe the issue that should be addressed is NOT to take labor and delivery so lightly, and don’t wait till the last minute to go to the hospital. Make plans for your delivery, have a game plan, have a bag packed, know who you are calling to watch your other kids, have your phone numbers handy, know how you are getting to the hospital, know who is taking you if your husband isn’t home, don’t wait for him to get home if your contractions are too close and too strong. Ask your doctors all the questions you need to ask. Don’t go into labor by surprise, be prepared for labor, understand what it is and what to expect.

    Anon12345
    Anon12345
    12 years ago

    There is at least one major problem in my eyes. Routine child birth can be handled by someone with the necessary training – even without a lot of experience.

    What happens when something goes wrong? Breech Birth, Prolapsed Cord, etc. Wouldn’t you rather have someone there who deals with true emergencies on a daily basis? Even if most Hatzalah members don’t routinely deliver babies, they are still highly effective in emergencies. What happens if the infant is c”v not breathing. Will that be the time to call Hatzalah to intubate, give drugs, etc.?

    If all that these women do is childbirth emergencies, then how much TRUE emergency experience will they have?

    What happens if the patient is 9 months pregnant and has abdominal pain? Call Ezras Nashim… then it turns out that the patient is really having an Abdominal Aortic Anuerism… What happens is the patient is having the true life threatening emergency of eclampsia? Will you have the basic EMT with the very basic training treating these patients? Even if they are ER/OB nurses, etc. In the field they won’t be able to legally operate above the EMT level.

    12 years ago

    Some of the comments pertaining to this subject, are very disturbing. One commentator referred to a situation, whereby male patients would be placed in the care of female EMT’s. If someone is a patient in a hospital, do they only ask for male nurses, instead of female nurses? If someone goes to a dentist, are they prohibited from having a female dental hygienist clean their teeth? There are females who only prefer other females as their health professionals, whether it be their family physician or other specialists. Hence, they should have that option, if they wish to. We are not living in societies (such as in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, or Saudi Arabia), where women are 4th rate citizens. In summary, let frum women join Hatzalah as paramedics. Let us be respectful to them, and not assume that there might be liaisons, because there are males and females on an emergency run. One would think that there is plenty on their plates, to occupy their attention during during an emergency.

    12 years ago

    Unfortunately, I have needed Hatzalah a few times (not for birth.) I live in a walk-up & I am not a small woman (NOT fat!!!) It needed the physical strength of male Hatzalah members to carry me down to the ambulance. Women just wouldn’t be able to lift me.

    I know this because it takes SIX of us in the Chevra Kadisha to lift even a small female meis.

    As for the embarrassment of a male delivering a baby: I know of Hatzlah members who had to deliver their grandchildren. I know of women who gave birth in public – you want to know what that is like? I WAS ONE! Now THAT is embarrassing, being in a hallway in the hospital with strangers watching in utter fascination & me not making it to a room.

    How about (another time) when my husband’s friend was the on-duty doctor? It was him or nobody.

    Women: stop being so PC. Let these guys do what they are trained to do. Believe me, they don’t care who you are, you are a Yid in pain & they look after you. Grow up & leave Hatzalah to the men. Women don’t have to prove themselves any more & we don’t have to do everything men do.

    5towns
    5towns
    12 years ago

    As a woman who has delivered children I will tell you that all of my doctors are women. Even my dentist. I am totally uncomfortable with a male doctor, especially an OBGYN. In my opinion the women that prefer men are the shotahs, there are plenty of very very good female, even frum female, OBGYNs. Unless she needs very specific specialized care, she will have no problem finding a very qualified female to deliver her.
    This is a very important need in the community, to save the boosha that the woman in labor feels (yes she does and no man can say she doesn’t)

    Secular
    Secular
    12 years ago

    #61

    ” The whole concept of pikuach nefesh is really one that absolves you from putting “that” much thought into the concept of being mechalel shabbos. “

    That is precisely the attitude the aforementioned Poskim are trying to prevent.

    Pikuach Nefesh does NOT absolve putting thought into chillul shabbos!! That it’s why traditionally chillul shabos was relegated to MEN who were talmidei chachomim.

    This has nothing to do with women’s ability or intelligence. Nobody is being mysogynistic. Not every difference between men and women is a product of chauvinism. Grow up and get that large chip off your shoulder.

    On a different note: If Men are called upon to be mechalel Shabbos families need to count on their wives to uphold the sanctity of Shabbos for the sake of the children even when shabbos is disrupted by an emergency.

    I bet some of the proponents of womens’ Hatzolo are staunch opponets of Women Paskening …just a thought.

    Hadassah.Mirel
    Hadassah.Mirel
    12 years ago

    I think this is a great idea! Obviously, the details must be worked out so that the response time and level of care will not be negatively impacted, but I’m sure Mrs. Freier and the rest of the Ezras Nashim ladies are already working on that. I wish them lots of success!

    CSLMoish
    CSLMoish
    12 years ago

    Why can’t women start their own organization hatzalah does not have or own the mitzvah of hatzalas nefashos and women can use this new service for labor emergencies. Never mind seconds count I have heard many times when men don’t respond until 3rd or 4th time that dispatcher announced call

    EMTPRO
    EMTPRO
    12 years ago

    As a Frum Female EMT, I have to say that many people have misguided ideas about the work of EMT’S. Firstly in most of the world half of the EMT’S are female. Females are just as capable as men. Second: I think that it should be woman responding to other calls for females not just OB/GYN calls. When a patient is in cardiac arrest the chest needs to be exposed. No female wants a male to expose her chest no matter what her condition is. Of course if there are no female members available a male member should respond. I do agree that female and male members should not mingle, but there is a huge need for female EMT’S. PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE SO QUICK TO WRITE OFF THIS IDEA. A group of females should be formed to respond to these calls.

    12 years ago

    Personnally I think its a good idea. Every neighborhood should have a few female Hatzolo members for just this type of s situation. Doesn’t mean they are available or answer to all calls. An OB call or a sensitive matter can be dispacthed to the female responders and if they are not available than the men can respond. I see no problem with this at all.

    mewhoze
    mewhoze
    12 years ago

    The doctor or nurse could be a neighbor too. The EMS person could be a neighbor. The mikvah lady is a neighbor. Emergency situations cancel out shabbos, yom tov, and any other high holiday so what’s the difference here. NOTHING!!!
    People are forgetting this is an emergency service not a convenience service. Hatzolah members do what they do because they are quick and responsible and not cause they say well let me call some woman to deal with this pregnant lady who might be shy. Is she shy when the doctor who may be a male comes in? Would she be shy if she got into a car accident and went to a trauma center and only males are working and have to cut her clothing off? Even if her OB doc is female is there a guarantee she will be there when the woman is ready to give birth? What if she goes into labor upstate instead of in bklyn?

    mewhoze
    mewhoze
    12 years ago

    #83 , yes, let’s first see if we can get a woman emt to come for a heart attack. after they wait to get a response from a female (for a few minutes) and if none are available, then reach out to a male. oh, wait…the person is already gone….BDE.
    now wasnt that a stupid idea?
    a true professional does not point and giggle at male or female parts. a true professional assesses the emergency and treats the patient. does not make comment before, during or after the call.
    obviously many here either are not true professionals or dont know many.
    i have the good fortune of knowing quite a few and would not have a problem whether a male or female responded if i were in distress.

    SaraBasSara
    SaraBasSara
    12 years ago

    A huge thanks to and a question for Chevra Hatzolah

    This past friday, Rebbetzin W as brought in for a chest xray to my place of employment via ambulance by three outstanding Hatzolah members. They were accompanied by a younger Rebbetzin W, the patient’s daughter in law. Our receptionist called me to the front desk to ask me if we would be able to do the chest xray for the patient without moving her from the chair she was in.

    Reb W the younger recognized me and explained the situation and one of the Hatzolah members asked me if the xray could be done as soon as possible because they did not want to tie up the ambulance any longer than necessary. I told them both that we would get her in and out as soon as possible, but that we needed to have a minimum of paperwork done so that we would have a name to go along with the xray. “I am sure you can appreciate protocol,” I said to the senior EMT. “Of course, and we’ll help you all we can,” he replied. “And we’ll take all the help we can get.. It is all about teamwork, after all,” I said, leaving them to their forms.

    Forms underway, we headed back to the xray room, with EMTs pushing the chair. In the xray room, they asked if I wanted them to move her onto the table, and I said, no, we’ll just do it in the chair. When I handed them a hospital gown and told them that she needed to remove her clothing from the waist up, they all looked at each other and then one asked me if there was a nurse who could do it, while another suggested the daughter in law. All three men stepped out to the hallway while the daughter in law and I got her changed, positioned the film, and did the xray. The daughter in law asked if one of the Hatzolah members could wear the lead gown and stay with her for the xray, but I told her that they would have to consent to being exposed to (the small amount of) radiation involved, and that they really aren’t required to do so as part of their service. She understood, and apron-clad, helped me herself.

    As soon as the films were checked, I helped the daughter in law dress the patient and get her rebundled in the blankets and seatbelts before calling the EMTs back in. I thanked them all for their help, and they were off, in and out, literally in less than 20 minutes, with absolutely zero friction or issue.

    To recap, in less than 20 minutes, qualified trained professionals of two sexes interacted in a tznius and appropriate way to provide the best possible service to a patient, with no non-essential interaction (I did not even get the basics of their names) , and maximum positive, cooperative necessary interaction.

    So, a huge thanks to those outstanding Hatzolah members!

    And now for my question: If that worked so smoothly, why would it automatically NOT work smoothly had the patient been having a baby? You were all three obviously relieved to have someone female there to change the patient’s clothing, and quite content to wait in the hallway while the patient was cared for by a trained female professional. You were right there within hearing distance, and could have responded with alacrity had I callled for additional help, which I would not have hesitated to do had I needed it.

    (Obviously, you would not have delayed care to await an xray tech of any certain sex, nor would any reasonable person expect you to.)

    So, why, if she is qualified, available and on the scene, can a female EMT __not__ deliver babies while you stand as backup in the hallway? For the life of me, I cannot understand.

    NYPDEMS
    NYPDEMS
    12 years ago

    As a member of Hatzalah and a member of 911 I am disgusted from what some people here are writing. I treat both Jewish people and non Jewish people both in the 911 system and in Hatzalah. We and I speak for most of EMTS and Paramedics do not go around looking at patients in a perverted way. Those that do that should and have been fired or dismissed. I have never seen in the 15 years I have been a part of Hatzalah and EMS any EMT or Paramedic treat a female in any other way then the right way of being sensitive and kind. Yes there have been problems in many organizations and EMS groups but that is with every type of job anywhere, Jewish or not, American or not. We must look to this interest of woman working with Hatzalah as maybe something to look into and ask the Halachic authorities for guidance. We as regular religious jewish people must sit aside and let the Rabbi’s discuss and come to a conclusion. To make a story up saying women in cardiac arrest wouldn’t want a neighbor to see them topless while the EMT or Paramedic is doing chest compressions is foolish. Ask a person who is post cardiac arrest to see if they are embarrised or if they are going to thank that person forever.

    NYPDEMS
    NYPDEMS
    12 years ago

    We have to stop saying that there are people out there looking to find some sexual enjoyment from going on a Hatzalah call when there is someone in need of medical attention for a life or dealth situation. In a call that there is a woman giving birth a few members are dispatched because you don’t have one patient anymore. YOU HAVE TWO PATIENTS. These two patients can either be healthy with Hashems help or there can be a turn when you have two critical patients. Speaking for myself here, there is no enjoyment in seeing a woman give birth except for the fact that a life is being born after all the killing and hatered that is going on in the world. We must stop assuming that there is need to pervert peoples outlook on Hatzalah members. In the 911 world and you are giving birth it is a 1 in a 100 you will get a female EMT or Paramedic. If you are so set on having a female deliver your baby either,
    1) Go to the hospital before your due date or make sure you are there before you go into labor
    2) Make sure you do not want to go from Far Rockaway to Manhattan and think the 45 minute trip will be ok without medical attention especially if it is not your first child.

    NYPDEMS
    NYPDEMS
    12 years ago

    One more thing to say on this matter. If there is any issue with any EMT or Paramedic treating a patient in a matter that is not the proper way it should be reported to the Hatzalah coordinator if it is a Hatzalah member or a FDNY LT or Captain if it is a 911 call. This things should never happen and if G-d forbid it does then as in every part of the world there are bad apples in every tree and we must all help each other to get rid of the apples and only have the ones who do this job in a proper way. The reason of helping one another no matter who they are and what is wrong. Treat the person, go back to your own life, and thank Hashem for giving you the skills to do it.
    I hope everyone sees that this could be a good idea but with all the bad words people are saying here about one another Jewish or non Jewish is not a positive thing and we should stop speaking about our own neighbors who are always there to help us when we are in need. May we all be able to stay healthy and not ever need Hatzalah or 911 and may M’shiach come now!!

    shtill
    shtill
    12 years ago

    Most of you are missing the point. The rabbanim are concerned that once you have females trained as EMT’s they will be utilized even when the call would not be of the nature they were trained for. Say someone collapses in shul.. In walks mrs Freier to the mens section to administer CPR… Of course at that point it would be the right thing because of pickuach nefesh, but why put them into such a position.

    12 years ago

    I’m a woman and have chosen all female doctors when possible. B”H I have been gebentched by the Aibershter with many children, one of whom was delivered partly by Hatzolah and partly by hospital personnel, working together in a Hatzolah ambulance. And while I would have definitely preferred the assistance of the female midwife who was waiting for me inside the hospital, the Hatzolah members who were with me, who to my initial chagrin happened to be neighbors and family friends, were so extra-sensitive to my discomfort. Yes, it was difficult to face them for those first few months after the birth, but all that faded, B”H, as the joy of another healthy neshoma spread through our home.

    While I understand that not all members are as sensitive as these and that some patients have had negative experiences while being treated by hatzola during an emergency, I think the focus might need to be some ehrllichkeit and mentchlichkeit “training” to ensure that the dignity and femininity of yiddishe women are not CH”V violated – in ANY way – during a hatzolah call rather than training an all-new brigade of female EMTs, despite their equal qualifications.

    Sol-Sol
    Sol-Sol
    12 years ago

    Once again, I give lots of credit to Mrs R. Freier for standing up for what she and many women believe in. Protecting our women’s dignity and Tzinas is part of the Hatzolas Nefoshas puzzle that will make it an even better organisation. I’m part of Hatzolah and I can totally relate to those ladies that claim that they felt uncomfortable during and after. I’m just scratching my head trying to imagine it working out in practicality. But Mrs F deserves an A+ for not letting negative thoughts into her way of what she feels is only right. Ruchy you have my support!!