Jerusalem - R’ Avraham Yosef: Segregated Buses Idiotic, Not Derived From Fear And Reverence For Hashem |
|
| |
News Source: VIN News Staff
Text Size
|
|
Jerusalem - In an explosive radio interview today on Radio Kol Bramah, the son of Israel’s Chief Rabbi, had harsh words for those who insists that men and women must be separated on busses.
Rabbi Avraham Yosef, Rov of Holon, and the son of Rav Ovadia Yosef, did not mince words when radio host Moti Lavi recounted the story of a Chareidi man who was sitting in the front seat of a bus, in an area designated for the handicapped, and angrily rebuked a blind woman who sat down next to him, telling her she needed to move to the back of the bus, the area where women are seated on Mehadrin bus lines.
“This is idiocy,” said R’ Yosef. “This is chutzpah, a lack of understanding. The ways of the Torah are pleasant and peaceful. This is idiocy. This does not stem from yiras shomayim. Pirkei Avos criticizes one who tries to overdo his yiras shomayim and we know what happened to Shaul Hamelech when he added additional words onto the directives of Shmuel Hanavi.
There is no prohibition on sitting next to a strange woman. Looking at her? Yes. Smelling her perfume? Yes. But sitting next to her? Take off your glasses, don’t look.”
While R’ Yosef did not want to engage in a lengthy discourse on the subject of Mehadrin buses, he did say that there are customs that have been introduced in the last generation that he suspects were done without first seeking the counsel of Daas Torah and that by attempting to enforce this additional level of separation the Chareidi community is bringing upon itself unnecessary negative publicity.
To listen to the radio interview posted 
at Kikar
More of today's headlines
“Amsterdam - The Dutch government said Wednesday it will study new standards for ritual slaughter to satisfy animal rights activists without infringing on ancient Jewish...”
Amsterdam - Cabinet Will Tighten Shechita Rules
Warsaw, Poland - A Polish Woman's Heroic Journey Of Self-Discovery As A Jew
Total64
Read Comments (64) — Post Yours »
1
Dec 21, 2011 at 09:38 AM LGinsburg Says:Report as Inappropriate
Finally. Now will we read/hear from many questioning his credentials?
2
Dec 21, 2011 at 09:38 AM AriGold Says:Report as Inappropriate
Finally a voice of reason! From women with shawls to protesting buses it has become truly ridiculous.
3
Dec 21, 2011 at 09:54 AM Rudi Stettner Says:Report as Inappropriate
The deepest and most lasting increase in religious observance comes not from being forced into it, but when there is an inner transformation. When attempt to force their strictness on a population that wants no part of it, they lessen the likelihood of the people that they negatively influence returning to Jewish observance. Far from upholding and defending the law, it could be argued that hateful and confrontive behavior is "moises u mediakh" , sinning and causing others to sin. We need tokeep this in mind.
4
Dec 21, 2011 at 09:35 AM FALLSBURGER Says:Report as Inappropriate
Question:
Why is there no outrage against the very popular Egged # 400 (Jerusalem - Bnei Brak) which also has separate seating (segregated...) ?
Answer:
This route is not used by the chareidim of Meah Shearim....
Its mostly used by the bnei torah of Bnei Brak.... & it not the fashion to bash them.... Not yet.
This is the epitome of hypocrisy.....
5
Dec 21, 2011 at 09:24 AM FALLSBURGER Says:Report as Inappropriate
To take the actions of one lunatic & use it to smear an entire segment of pious people, is also against the Torah.
6
Dec 21, 2011 at 09:23 AM No-Name Says:Report as Inappropriate
Smelling her perfume, ossur, so of course she has to sit in the back!!!
7
Dec 21, 2011 at 10:07 AM AuthenticSatmar Says:Report as Inappropriate
While it may not be ossur, as frum people we live beyond the basic halacha.
Its true we can't be demeaning to women, however why can't we be considerate of a large segment of the ridership that seek to impose a chumra. Separation of men and women is not meant to be demeaning at all, and common courtesy is to be sensitive to those around us.
For a womam to be instigating by intentionally sitting up front, she is being demeaning to many others.
We are looking at this with tunnel vision, and need to look at this in overall context.
8
Dec 21, 2011 at 10:06 AM Vasserman Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Smelling her perfume, ossur, so of course she has to sit in the back!!! ”
Hold your nose or get off the bus. Embarrassing them is far worse.
9
Dec 21, 2011 at 10:14 AM krozz Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Smelling her perfume, ossur, so of course she has to sit in the back!!! ”
Well it would make more sense for Men to sit in the back of the bus then becuase she would have to pass all the men to get there, so to be machmir the men should sit in the back so there is minimal chance of smelling or looking at a woman as she passes by.
10
Dec 21, 2011 at 10:22 AM Queenbee Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Smelling her perfume, ossur, so of course she has to sit in the back!!! ”
Lol. Perhaps they should make perfume segregated buses then.
11
Dec 21, 2011 at 10:22 AM DavidCohen Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ While it may not be ossur, as frum people we live beyond the basic halacha.
Its true we can't be demeaning to women, however why can't we be considerate of a large segment of the ridership that seek to impose a chumra. Separation of men and women is not meant to be demeaning at all, and common courtesy is to be sensitive to those around us.
For a womam to be instigating by intentionally sitting up front, she is being demeaning to many others.
We are looking at this with tunnel vision, and need to look at this in overall context. ”
Great, so how about men go sit at the back?!?!?!?!?
12
Dec 21, 2011 at 10:30 AM shvigger Says:Report as Inappropriate
...and while we read, the leftie secular activists are purchasing perfume for the next desegregation showdown.
13
Dec 21, 2011 at 10:30 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
This problem can be solved, as it has been in certain Asian countries. There, whole train cars are reserved exclusively for women, to prevent incidents. Therefore, an entire bus can be reserved only for women, where they will be free to sit in the front, in the middle or in the back; and, there would be separate buses for men only. It is the only sensible, and humane way to solve this problem!
14
Dec 21, 2011 at 10:37 AM FinVeeNemtMenSeichel Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ While it may not be ossur, as frum people we live beyond the basic halacha.
Its true we can't be demeaning to women, however why can't we be considerate of a large segment of the ridership that seek to impose a chumra. Separation of men and women is not meant to be demeaning at all, and common courtesy is to be sensitive to those around us.
For a womam to be instigating by intentionally sitting up front, she is being demeaning to many others.
We are looking at this with tunnel vision, and need to look at this in overall context. ”
Your first sentence is the one most people harbor the greatest displeasure with... There is really no limit to that 'beyond' and we aren't really taught what is basic halacha and what is artificial additives. And please stop portraying the population in question as nebech quietly suffering the wrath of anti-chareidim, while just wanting to be left alone to live beyond basics of halacha. They consistently and persistently attempt to enforce their ideologies on others, especially women and little girls. It is silly and futile to deny this as it is widely known and experienced by many. Muslim terrorist sympathizers are also proficient at using this tactic - the aggressors are the victims. Hogwash.
15
Dec 21, 2011 at 11:04 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ This problem can be solved, as it has been in certain Asian countries. There, whole train cars are reserved exclusively for women, to prevent incidents. Therefore, an entire bus can be reserved only for women, where they will be free to sit in the front, in the middle or in the back; and, there would be separate buses for men only. It is the only sensible, and humane way to solve this problem! ”
Ridiculous. Judaism is not Islam. It never contemplated extreme separation of the sexes. This leads to further misundertsanding and conflict between the sexes, usually to the detriment of women.
16
Dec 21, 2011 at 11:14 AM chaim rubin from grand Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Your first sentence is the one most people harbor the greatest displeasure with... There is really no limit to that 'beyond' and we aren't really taught what is basic halacha and what is artificial additives. And please stop portraying the population in question as nebech quietly suffering the wrath of anti-chareidim, while just wanting to be left alone to live beyond basics of halacha. They consistently and persistently attempt to enforce their ideologies on others, especially women and little girls. It is silly and futile to deny this as it is widely known and experienced by many. Muslim terrorist sympathizers are also proficient at using this tactic - the aggressors are the victims. Hogwash. ”
We should do the same here in the states. Grand will be offering separate hours for men and women. Also, don't forget 50 off (not clothing).
Heimish people should come in the morning and not heimishe goyim should come later
17
Dec 21, 2011 at 11:14 AM Ben_Kol Says:Report as Inappropriate
Imposing chumros on others in one area of halachah often involves a kula in another area, such as kavod habriyos, v'ahavta l'reiyacha kamochais, etc. What if the woman being asked to move is a widow? To embarass her in this way (and being asked to move is always embarrassing) probably violates the issur D' ORAISA of lo s'anun yasom v'almanah (oppressing orphans and widows).
Let's remember the famous story of R' Yisrael Salanter who used only the minimum amount of water for netilas yadayim (despite the hidur of using a lot of water) because he did not want to impose an extra burden on the maid who shlepped the water.
Recently, some Poskim ruled that on airplanes, people should daven in their seats and not gather to make a minyan because that would inconvenience other passengers.
18
Dec 21, 2011 at 11:15 AM Ben_Kol Says:Report as Inappropriate
It's been suggested (usually, sarcastically) over and over again that men should sit in the back. This is actually a practical idea. They won't have to walk through the women's section because they can enter and exit through the back doors. It's true that they would now sit facing the women. But the women would be some distance away, so the men can just look down, read a sefer, or close their eyes (which is what they should be doing anyway, rather than inconveniencing others for the sake of their chumros).
19
Dec 21, 2011 at 11:24 AM AuthenticSatmar Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Your first sentence is the one most people harbor the greatest displeasure with... There is really no limit to that 'beyond' and we aren't really taught what is basic halacha and what is artificial additives. And please stop portraying the population in question as nebech quietly suffering the wrath of anti-chareidim, while just wanting to be left alone to live beyond basics of halacha. They consistently and persistently attempt to enforce their ideologies on others, especially women and little girls. It is silly and futile to deny this as it is widely known and experienced by many. Muslim terrorist sympathizers are also proficient at using this tactic - the aggressors are the victims. Hogwash. ”
They are not looking to impose this nationwide, only in their neighborhood on buses that are primarily occupied by their types.
Also, not sitting near woman is different than the Taliban dress, and has been accepted by a significant number of people. So its not an overly beyond chumra.
It seems that the big problem is the women in the back. Are theses same women forcing men upstairs in shul and the women downstairs.
We are really making a bigger deal of this, and it is an anti chareidi attack under the veil of politically correct.
20
Dec 21, 2011 at 11:59 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Well it would make more sense for Men to sit in the back of the bus then becuase she would have to pass all the men to get there, so to be machmir the men should sit in the back so there is minimal chance of smelling or looking at a woman as she passes by. ”
That is exactly what I said weeks ago when this whole bus thing started. Let the men sit in the back of the bus ...Every time a woman gets on they have to watch who is passing them and bumping into them when the bus starts going...sometimes actually falling on top of them. That will surely not happen if they go to the back of the bus.
21
Dec 21, 2011 at 11:59 AM The_Beadle Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Question:
Why is there no outrage against the very popular Egged # 400 (Jerusalem - Bnei Brak) which also has separate seating (segregated...) ?
Answer:
This route is not used by the chareidim of Meah Shearim....
Its mostly used by the bnei torah of Bnei Brak.... & it not the fashion to bash them.... Not yet.
This is the epitome of hypocrisy..... ”
do you know the meaning of the word hypocrisy?
22
Dec 21, 2011 at 12:00 PM FinVeeNemtMenSeichel Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ This problem can be solved, as it has been in certain Asian countries. There, whole train cars are reserved exclusively for women, to prevent incidents. Therefore, an entire bus can be reserved only for women, where they will be free to sit in the front, in the middle or in the back; and, there would be separate buses for men only. It is the only sensible, and humane way to solve this problem! ”
Families will now be able to hasten the coming of the moshiach by being unable to travel together.
I wonder how much you really know about the trains in the "asian countries." They are so frighteningly and unhumanly crowded - there are personnel at the stations who literally cram people in physically as if they're packing a duffel bag - you can be so tightly wedged between your fellow passengers your feet don't even touch the floor.
Another little full disclosure (sigh!) fact: there are cars designated "women only" and a woman can opt to ride the regular (yes, regular - not "men only") cars. But why would she? Not the point - please don't misrepresent facts.
23
Dec 21, 2011 at 12:11 PM 12345 Says:Report as Inappropriate
for a frum Jew to offer anything but help and assistance to a blind Jewish women is not Jewish behavior, these impulses to harm women stem soley from the sitra achra the perpatrators need to do teshuva and examine themselves for why they use G-ds Torah to justify their sick impulses.
24
Dec 21, 2011 at 12:19 PM Torah'dik Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ It's been suggested (usually, sarcastically) over and over again that men should sit in the back. This is actually a practical idea. They won't have to walk through the women's section because they can enter and exit through the back doors. It's true that they would now sit facing the women. But the women would be some distance away, so the men can just look down, read a sefer, or close their eyes (which is what they should be doing anyway, rather than inconveniencing others for the sake of their chumros). ”
But the gamara saya אחורי ארי ולא אחורי אשה
so if its you or any other conservative rabbi against a gemara, the gemara will govern..
25
Dec 21, 2011 at 12:30 PM Fine Shmekker Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Smelling her perfume, ossur, so of course she has to sit in the back!!! ”
It really depends what type of perfume. If it is a cheap perfume then perhaps it is permissible to smell it since it is Reach Ra.
26
Dec 21, 2011 at 12:35 PM New Yawker Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Families will now be able to hasten the coming of the moshiach by being unable to travel together.
I wonder how much you really know about the trains in the "asian countries." They are so frighteningly and unhumanly crowded - there are personnel at the stations who literally cram people in physically as if they're packing a duffel bag - you can be so tightly wedged between your fellow passengers your feet don't even touch the floor.
Another little full disclosure (sigh!) fact: there are cars designated "women only" and a woman can opt to ride the regular (yes, regular - not "men only") cars. But why would she? Not the point - please don't misrepresent facts. ”
Sounds like an NYC subway car. What is really bad is when you get a smelly homeless guy on one car - everybody bolts and squeezes into the other cars. Maybe some of those good smelling women from Israel can send some of that perfume over here so the subway cars will smell better.
27
Dec 21, 2011 at 12:39 PM FinVeeNemtMenSeichel Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ They are not looking to impose this nationwide, only in their neighborhood on buses that are primarily occupied by their types.
Also, not sitting near woman is different than the Taliban dress, and has been accepted by a significant number of people. So its not an overly beyond chumra.
It seems that the big problem is the women in the back. Are theses same women forcing men upstairs in shul and the women downstairs.
We are really making a bigger deal of this, and it is an anti chareidi attack under the veil of politically correct. ”
I am anything but politically correct, in fact I abhor political correctness. The Taliban and others of their ilk don't think they are extreme either. And nobody is talking about a woman sitting next to a man (other than her son/husband/father/etc). We're talking about halachically baseless practices and insisting everybody cater to it. I don't honor it, and it's not my fault that I need to ride a bus that happens to pass through chareidy neighborhoods. And again, I will not turn a blind eye to the harrassing, spitting, and hitting of women by these loons (small number though they may be purported to be). In many areas. Just because women's rights is a hot-button political issue (not necessarily championed by me) and most spokespeople for this issue are left wing loons themselves doesn't negate the fact that the behavior of the Chareidim is wrong. Misrepresenting them as being targets of a conspiracy against them is ludicrous. Just like everyone telling me I'm a racist because I oppose Obama.
28
Dec 21, 2011 at 12:47 PM Babishka Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ But the gamara saya אחורי ארי ולא אחורי אשה
so if its you or any other conservative rabbi against a gemara, the gemara will govern.. ”
Show us where this is brought down in the Shulchan Aruch to apply to public transportation. There are a lot of opinions expressed in the gemara that did not find their way into the Shulchan Aruch.
29
Dec 21, 2011 at 12:58 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ While it may not be ossur, as frum people we live beyond the basic halacha.
Its true we can't be demeaning to women, however why can't we be considerate of a large segment of the ridership that seek to impose a chumra. Separation of men and women is not meant to be demeaning at all, and common courtesy is to be sensitive to those around us.
For a womam to be instigating by intentionally sitting up front, she is being demeaning to many others.
We are looking at this with tunnel vision, and need to look at this in overall context. ”
Tunnel vision = an extremely narrow point of view; narrow-mindedness. It's actually the small group of people that want segregated buses that are displaying tunnel vision, the world at large and majority of Israeli's have the broader context and understand that a bus is just transportation, not a seduction mobile. Outside of that teeny, tiny circle this is seen as demeaning and oppressive to women, whether that's the intent of this chumra or not. The danger of imposing unnecessary chumra's on people and pretending that they are halacha is that they can create a chillul Hashem and a chumra that demeans another human being will never make a positive impression on the world. Picture this scenario, a pregnant mother carrying groceries and shlepping kids trying to get home to make dinner and do homework and some snotty 20 year old yeshiva bochur sitting comfortably tells her to get to the back of the bus? A strong young man is allowed to make life harder for a stressed out mother or a little old lady, simply because he is male? A mother is stuck caring for all her children in the back of a bus and her husband is sitting up front relaxing? How is this not wrong and demeaning to women?
30
Dec 21, 2011 at 01:04 PM FALLSBURGER Says:Report as Inappropriate
To #21
Is that all you could muster ?
To nitpick on the exact definition of a word?
Why don't you answer the charge ?
It is clear that the posters on this site choose only to bash the Meah Shearim type chereidim , & when the same so called segregation goes on somewhere else , as on the # 400 bus, its totally ignored.
That my friend, IS hypocrisy !!
31
Dec 21, 2011 at 01:24 PM FinVeeNemtMenSeichel Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ But the gamara saya אחורי ארי ולא אחורי אשה
so if its you or any other conservative rabbi against a gemara, the gemara will govern.. ”
Nobody gets intimidated by ppl like you pulling the "conservative rabbi" card. The gemara is not halacha lemaaseh.
32
Dec 21, 2011 at 01:46 PM bigwheeel Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ We should do the same here in the states. Grand will be offering separate hours for men and women. Also, don't forget 50 off (not clothing).
Heimish people should come in the morning and not heimishe goyim should come later ”
You're going to tell the customers when to come?! You'll accept their money only in designated hours?! It's only Chanukah, not Chodesh Adar. A Gitten Peerem!
34
Dec 21, 2011 at 02:34 PM Robert Says:Report as Inappropriate
Why not have the buses for women only and have the men walk?
Maybe they can use the excercise.
Older men can group together into communal taxis...
problem solved
35
Dec 21, 2011 at 02:43 PM Ben_Kol Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ To #21
Is that all you could muster ?
To nitpick on the exact definition of a word?
Why don't you answer the charge ?
It is clear that the posters on this site choose only to bash the Meah Shearim type chereidim , & when the same so called segregation goes on somewhere else , as on the # 400 bus, its totally ignored.
That my friend, IS hypocrisy !! ”
Do you realize that you've just made up a new category? "Meah Shearim type chareidim" as opposed to "Bnei Brak type chareidim". Where did you get this nonsense from? The voices in your head I suppose.
I can assure you that all those who oppose the imposition of chumros on the general public do not care a hoot where the buses come from.
36
Dec 21, 2011 at 04:07 PM A Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ While it may not be ossur, as frum people we live beyond the basic halacha.
Its true we can't be demeaning to women, however why can't we be considerate of a large segment of the ridership that seek to impose a chumra. Separation of men and women is not meant to be demeaning at all, and common courtesy is to be sensitive to those around us.
For a womam to be instigating by intentionally sitting up front, she is being demeaning to many others.
We are looking at this with tunnel vision, and need to look at this in overall context. ”
But you're not looking at this with everyone in mind. What if women do find it demeaning but they won't tell you because it isn't 'acceptable'? Most certainly it is not a courtesy to tell anyone to sit in the back of the bus. It is reminscent of the not so distant past in the USA when black people were told to sit in the back. The entire idea of forcing ANYONE to move to the back of the bus is degrading (and yes, I fully expect some women to respond they don't mind it at all and that they feel frummer than frum to sit in the back) .
37
Dec 21, 2011 at 04:15 PM someone who actually lived in both worlds Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Do you realize that you've just made up a new category? "Meah Shearim type chareidim" as opposed to "Bnei Brak type chareidim". Where did you get this nonsense from? The voices in your head I suppose.
I can assure you that all those who oppose the imposition of chumros on the general public do not care a hoot where the buses come from. ”
Your confidence in your ignorance is outstanding. You posit on a situation of which it is obvious your only source of information is VIN and some deep issues you are afraid to face. please stop insulting our intelligences with your incoherent ramblings.
38
Dec 21, 2011 at 06:22 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ To take the actions of one lunatic & use it to smear an entire segment of pious people, is also against the Torah. ”
who is the one lunatic? have you been paying attention AT ALL? EVERYONE on that bus line is a lunatic!
39
Dec 21, 2011 at 06:23 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ While it may not be ossur, as frum people we live beyond the basic halacha.
Its true we can't be demeaning to women, however why can't we be considerate of a large segment of the ridership that seek to impose a chumra. Separation of men and women is not meant to be demeaning at all, and common courtesy is to be sensitive to those around us.
For a womam to be instigating by intentionally sitting up front, she is being demeaning to many others.
We are looking at this with tunnel vision, and need to look at this in overall context. ”
1. the woman was BLIND!
2. you are an idiot.
40
Dec 21, 2011 at 08:53 PM common-sense Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Your confidence in your ignorance is outstanding. You posit on a situation of which it is obvious your only source of information is VIN and some deep issues you are afraid to face. please stop insulting our intelligences with your incoherent ramblings. ”
Stop insulting our intelligence (not intelligences) with your incorrect English, which you tried to disguise by using "fancy" words such posit, but which does not make any sense (one does not "posit on a situation).
41
Dec 21, 2011 at 07:01 PM The_Beadle Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ To #21
Is that all you could muster ?
To nitpick on the exact definition of a word?
Why don't you answer the charge ?
It is clear that the posters on this site choose only to bash the Meah Shearim type chereidim , & when the same so called segregation goes on somewhere else , as on the # 400 bus, its totally ignored.
That my friend, IS hypocrisy !! ”
Firstly, it would be hypocrisy if I were practicing segregation while lambasting others for doing so.
Secondly, I couldn't care less where the mysoginism is taking place and I'm not quite sure why you think others do.
42
Dec 21, 2011 at 07:55 PM HaNavon Says:Report as Inappropriate
#7
More than halacha huh? Tell me something. How much money have you taken from the govt? It's a halacha mfuresh in the Yoreh Deah that you're not allowed to benefit from goyishe tzeddakah...but I see every chassidishe yingerman taking food stamps and section 8, so don't give me that garbage! You guys do whatever you want to do, and it's a sign of a major problem that you have this need to seperate women more than the halachos! I think there's a direct correlation between this and the child abuse in the chareidi world. They're sick! They need help immediately!
43
Dec 21, 2011 at 07:59 PM savtat Says:Report as Inappropriate
Sad to say, those countries that have separate buses for men and women so there won't be any incidents, THIS IS NOT A KAVOD!! It means people aren't behaving properly. Mexico also has separate buses, but that is not something to aspire to. A family should be able to travel someplace together. Not everyone has a car - it is a hardship to travel separately.
Rav Yosef is saying that it is not halachikly necessary. Why can't we listen to mainstream reason?
44
Dec 21, 2011 at 08:03 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Tunnel vision = an extremely narrow point of view; narrow-mindedness. It's actually the small group of people that want segregated buses that are displaying tunnel vision, the world at large and majority of Israeli's have the broader context and understand that a bus is just transportation, not a seduction mobile. Outside of that teeny, tiny circle this is seen as demeaning and oppressive to women, whether that's the intent of this chumra or not. The danger of imposing unnecessary chumra's on people and pretending that they are halacha is that they can create a chillul Hashem and a chumra that demeans another human being will never make a positive impression on the world. Picture this scenario, a pregnant mother carrying groceries and shlepping kids trying to get home to make dinner and do homework and some snotty 20 year old yeshiva bochur sitting comfortably tells her to get to the back of the bus? A strong young man is allowed to make life harder for a stressed out mother or a little old lady, simply because he is male? A mother is stuck caring for all her children in the back of a bus and her husband is sitting up front relaxing? How is this not wrong and demeaning to women? ”
Usually he is not relaxing, he is helping her with the kids..up front too...happens all the time!
45
Dec 21, 2011 at 08:10 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ But you're not looking at this with everyone in mind. What if women do find it demeaning but they won't tell you because it isn't 'acceptable'? Most certainly it is not a courtesy to tell anyone to sit in the back of the bus. It is reminscent of the not so distant past in the USA when black people were told to sit in the back. The entire idea of forcing ANYONE to move to the back of the bus is degrading (and yes, I fully expect some women to respond they don't mind it at all and that they feel frummer than frum to sit in the back) . ”
You got it wrong. It's not a frummer than frum attitude. It is simply a courtesy to the men not to mix and sit together with them in such close proximity as a bus requires. I am a pretty open minded woman here in the states, (Brooklyn, N.Y.) and for the most part, I would say that 99.9% of woman who frequent these routes are not offended in any shape or form by sitting in the back. It is just a natural outcome of modesty to do it, and I have never heard anyone complain..And yes the goiytes do sit where they want when they come on...usually will adhere to the practice on their own...usually following he lead...and sitting in the woman's section.
To conclude: private bus, do as you they wish
Public transportaion: sit where you want.
46
Dec 21, 2011 at 09:03 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
It would also cause him to become infertile, which may not be a bad thing at all.
47
Dec 21, 2011 at 09:43 PM Miss JAP Says:Report as Inappropriate
#27, #29 and #36
I agree with the three of you.
Whatever the reasoning is, it certainly appears to be degrading to women even if they claim that that is not their intention.
Asking people to sit in back of the bus has degrading connotations. Period. End of story.
I'm speaking from experience as a Chassidish women who works with non-Jews and had a heck of a job trying to explain that Judaism doesn't degrade women, but it's just a few loonies that do. Sigh.....still trying to convince them.
Thank you loonies for degrading me and my beautiful religion in the eyes of my colleagues.
48
Dec 21, 2011 at 10:49 PM harryw Says:Report as Inappropriate
What about sitting next to a woman and having to lean against her or rub against her as is the case when the bus is full and all seats are occupied, is that ok too? Im sure he will admit it isn't. So, not alowed to lean on her, not allowed to look at her, not allowed to smell her perfume BUT allowed to sit next to her without the glasses. Mr/rabbi yosef, are you a hipocrit or just plain stupid ?????
To the entire Yosef family. You are the epitomy of hipocrisy. This is what happens when rabbis get involved in politics and parties. Now you have a problem speaking the true daas torah when its not politically correct.
Guess what. The satmar rebbe was right after all. And u rabbi ovadya and sons are case in point.
49
Dec 22, 2011 at 12:19 AM harryw Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ #27, #29 and #36
I agree with the three of you.
Whatever the reasoning is, it certainly appears to be degrading to women even if they claim that that is not their intention.
Asking people to sit in back of the bus has degrading connotations. Period. End of story.
I'm speaking from experience as a Chassidish women who works with non-Jews and had a heck of a job trying to explain that Judaism doesn't degrade women, but it's just a few loonies that do. Sigh.....still trying to convince them.
Thank you loonies for degrading me and my beautiful religion in the eyes of my colleagues. ”
Please explain why refusing to sit next to a strange woman who sometimes (most of times) dress provocatively, all maked up and perfumed, why is that a denigration to woman? In fact, im trying to safeguard me mariege and maintain loyalty to my wife. I think, those who actually interact with strange woman in a seductive way and cheat on their vives are the once who disrespect woman.
Furthermore, your/ our religion is beutifull, no question. But, its not how you define beuty, its the way hashem does. If you can't answer questions from your non jewish co workers then consult a scholar how to go about it. Can u explain in perfect sense all 613 commendments? Of course not. Are they now non-sense ? No way. Can you explain einsteins theory? Im sure you can't. Is it therfore untrue or non-sense ? NO. You don't have to understand everything and you wont be able to explain everything. Out religion remains beutifull and the 613 mitzvos are forever fulfilling.
You got some work to do. go clear your toughts. And get it right this time.
50
Dec 22, 2011 at 01:16 AM HaNavon Says:Report as Inappropriate
#48,
You're an idiot.
Mvazeh talmid chacham ein lo chelek b'olam haba.
First of all, there's a difference between sitting next to a woman and rubbing against her, and second of all, that kind of rubbing against a woman isn't prohibited because it's not derech chibbah and you're not mchavein!
Go back to beis medrash and don't let me see you again until you know how to learn!
51
Dec 22, 2011 at 01:37 AM The_Beadle Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ What about sitting next to a woman and having to lean against her or rub against her as is the case when the bus is full and all seats are occupied, is that ok too? Im sure he will admit it isn't. So, not alowed to lean on her, not allowed to look at her, not allowed to smell her perfume BUT allowed to sit next to her without the glasses. Mr/rabbi yosef, are you a hipocrit or just plain stupid ?????
To the entire Yosef family. You are the epitomy of hipocrisy. This is what happens when rabbis get involved in politics and parties. Now you have a problem speaking the true daas torah when its not politically correct.
Guess what. The satmar rebbe was right after all. And u rabbi ovadya and sons are case in point. ”
I disagree with the Satmar Rebbe on many if not most issues, but would never dream of speaking about him in the disgraceful manner in which you speak against Rav Yosef and his father. If this is a product of your learning, I can almost disregard anything else you have to say.
Also, Rav Moshe Feinstein also paskined that it is ok to sit next to women when traveling...do you think he was stupid too?
52
Dec 22, 2011 at 01:44 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Smelling her perfume, ossur, so of course she has to sit in the back!!! ”
GOOD answer.
53
Dec 22, 2011 at 04:29 AM AviKes Says:Report as Inappropriate
When Rav Mordechai Eliahu zatzal was a dayan in BeerSheva he regularly took the bus from Yerushalayim. Once a woman sat next to him and he buried his face in his gemara but said nothing. Finally she tapped him on the shoulder and said "Mordechai, why aren't you speaking to me?" She was his wife.
54
Dec 22, 2011 at 07:21 AM Berl Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ What about sitting next to a woman and having to lean against her or rub against her as is the case when the bus is full and all seats are occupied, is that ok too? Im sure he will admit it isn't. So, not alowed to lean on her, not allowed to look at her, not allowed to smell her perfume BUT allowed to sit next to her without the glasses. Mr/rabbi yosef, are you a hipocrit or just plain stupid ?????
To the entire Yosef family. You are the epitomy of hipocrisy. This is what happens when rabbis get involved in politics and parties. Now you have a problem speaking the true daas torah when its not politically correct.
Guess what. The satmar rebbe was right after all. And u rabbi ovadya and sons are case in point. ”
Rav Avrohom is the ONE son that is NOT involved in politics, he is a posek who rules using the 5th section of shulchan aruch....... Common sense. He is skilled in blending what the halacha REALLY means using common sense. The Torah never intended for us to hurt others feelings when obeying it
The best solution for those who feel it necessary to have mehadrin would be to use a double decker bus, men downstairs women upstairs. That would solve all problems
55
Dec 22, 2011 at 07:26 AM Babishka Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Please explain why refusing to sit next to a strange woman who sometimes (most of times) dress provocatively, all maked up and perfumed, why is that a denigration to woman? In fact, im trying to safeguard me mariege and maintain loyalty to my wife. I think, those who actually interact with strange woman in a seductive way and cheat on their vives are the once who disrespect woman.
Furthermore, your/ our religion is beutifull, no question. But, its not how you define beuty, its the way hashem does. If you can't answer questions from your non jewish co workers then consult a scholar how to go about it. Can u explain in perfect sense all 613 commendments? Of course not. Are they now non-sense ? No way. Can you explain einsteins theory? Im sure you can't. Is it therfore untrue or non-sense ? NO. You don't have to understand everything and you wont be able to explain everything. Out religion remains beutifull and the 613 mitzvos are forever fulfilling.
You got some work to do. go clear your toughts. And get it right this time. ”
Maybe you should take a cab, drive a car OR WALK. You are a creep. I would not want to sit next to you, so, YOU GET OFF THE BUS!
56
Dec 22, 2011 at 07:49 AM harryw Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ #48,
You're an idiot.
Mvazeh talmid chacham ein lo chelek b'olam haba.
First of all, there's a difference between sitting next to a woman and rubbing against her, and second of all, that kind of rubbing against a woman isn't prohibited because it's not derech chibbah and you're not mchavein!
Go back to beis medrash and don't let me see you again until you know how to learn! ”
Between your psak and the psak of mr/rabbi yosef emerges a new and interesting scenario. You are allowed to sit on the bus next to a woman who is dressed up in full gear with all make up and perfumed. You are allowed to lean against her and touch her (which is the case when the bus is packed) since you are not mchavein. However, its firbidden to smell her perfume (according to yosef) so u must wear a nose clip and you are not allowed to look at her (according to yosef) so you must wear a blind folder over the eyes. Now that's not disrespecting a woman just asking her politely in a respectfull way to have seperate seatings that's a denigration. You get it?
I will have to ask you the same question I asked rabbi yosef. Are you a hypocrit or just plain old stupid. ????
57
Dec 22, 2011 at 09:02 AM Babishka Says:Report as Inappropriate
The worst public transportation experience of my life was when my husband and I took the train in Frankfurt, Germany. We are both disabled. There were a bunch of teenagers on the train when we boarded and not even one of them offered a seat to an elderly, disabled person!
58
Dec 22, 2011 at 09:52 AM Ben_Kol Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Your confidence in your ignorance is outstanding. You posit on a situation of which it is obvious your only source of information is VIN and some deep issues you are afraid to face. please stop insulting our intelligences with your incoherent ramblings. ”
Is that all you can muster? A few insults and an allusion to some secret knowledge known only to you.
My point was that those (like me) who are opposed to the impositon of chumros on the public really don't care whether the zealots are from Yerushalayim or Bnei Brak. Apparently, you have nothing substantial to say in response, which is not surprising, because the distinction is absurd and you know it.
59
Dec 22, 2011 at 09:58 AM Ben_Kol Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ #7
More than halacha huh? Tell me something. How much money have you taken from the govt? It's a halacha mfuresh in the Yoreh Deah that you're not allowed to benefit from goyishe tzeddakah...but I see every chassidishe yingerman taking food stamps and section 8, so don't give me that garbage! You guys do whatever you want to do, and it's a sign of a major problem that you have this need to seperate women more than the halachos! I think there's a direct correlation between this and the child abuse in the chareidi world. They're sick! They need help immediately! ”
You were doing very well until you mentioned child abuse.
60
Dec 22, 2011 at 10:00 AM The_Beadle Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Between your psak and the psak of mr/rabbi yosef emerges a new and interesting scenario. You are allowed to sit on the bus next to a woman who is dressed up in full gear with all make up and perfumed. You are allowed to lean against her and touch her (which is the case when the bus is packed) since you are not mchavein. However, its firbidden to smell her perfume (according to yosef) so u must wear a nose clip and you are not allowed to look at her (according to yosef) so you must wear a blind folder over the eyes. Now that's not disrespecting a woman just asking her politely in a respectfull way to have seperate seatings that's a denigration. You get it?
I will have to ask you the same question I asked rabbi yosef. Are you a hypocrit or just plain old stupid. ???? ”
It seems quite clear that you are just a boor with no common decency and respect for others - rabbanim, women, or anyone who doesn't do exactly as you think they should
61
Dec 22, 2011 at 10:05 AM Queenbee Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Please explain why refusing to sit next to a strange woman who sometimes (most of times) dress provocatively, all maked up and perfumed, why is that a denigration to woman? In fact, im trying to safeguard me mariege and maintain loyalty to my wife. I think, those who actually interact with strange woman in a seductive way and cheat on their vives are the once who disrespect woman.
Furthermore, your/ our religion is beutifull, no question. But, its not how you define beuty, its the way hashem does. If you can't answer questions from your non jewish co workers then consult a scholar how to go about it. Can u explain in perfect sense all 613 commendments? Of course not. Are they now non-sense ? No way. Can you explain einsteins theory? Im sure you can't. Is it therfore untrue or non-sense ? NO. You don't have to understand everything and you wont be able to explain everything. Out religion remains beutifull and the 613 mitzvos are forever fulfilling.
You got some work to do. go clear your toughts. And get it right this time. ”
Oh please.... we're talking Chareidi Meah Shearim women so where does dressing provocatively come in here? Most of them are dressed uber-Tzniusly.
And is it all black and white? Is it only between sending women in the back or sitting next to them and interacting seductively. Gimme a break. How about sitting next to them just sitting. Or if you think you'll be tempted, just stay standing.
Oh and about the coworkers from #47. Action speaks louder than words!! How is she supposed to be able to explain things properly when the behavior of some of her fellow chareidim suggest otherwise. (even if only a few, they make it to the news after all)
62
Dec 22, 2011 at 10:10 AM Ben_Kol Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Between your psak and the psak of mr/rabbi yosef emerges a new and interesting scenario. You are allowed to sit on the bus next to a woman who is dressed up in full gear with all make up and perfumed. You are allowed to lean against her and touch her (which is the case when the bus is packed) since you are not mchavein. However, its firbidden to smell her perfume (according to yosef) so u must wear a nose clip and you are not allowed to look at her (according to yosef) so you must wear a blind folder over the eyes. Now that's not disrespecting a woman just asking her politely in a respectfull way to have seperate seatings that's a denigration. You get it?
I will have to ask you the same question I asked rabbi yosef. Are you a hypocrit or just plain old stupid. ???? ”
Smelling a woman's perfume is forbidden only if you intend to derive pleasure from it.
Your remark about using a blind fold to cover the eyes was really dumb. Have you ever heard of closing your eyes, looking at the floor, learning from a sefer? Because it's not convenient for you to do any of these things, you think that it's OK to ask a woman to move. It is always embarrassing to be asked to move. What happened to kovod habrios, lo salbin pnei chaveiro barabim, issur chillul Hashem, lo s'anun almanah ve'yosom, etc. Why do you think that observing a chumra in the manner that is most convenient to you overrides these issurim d'oraisa?
63
Dec 22, 2011 at 10:47 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
There is absolutely no reason that these people's chumras should inconvenience anyone in any way. Besides the fact that multiple Gedolim have come out against Mehadrin buses (the fliers all over Me'ah She'arim claiming to be quoting R' Elyashiv are probably bogus, he's quoted differently every day), these Chareidim's belief that women should sit in the back of the bus has no more backing to it than a secular woman's belief that she can sit wherever she wants, and freedom of religion (which I know is lacking in Israel, but in principle it shouldn't be) should dictate that she can choose not to be tied down by made-up chumras. And in fact, her opinion should take precedence, because it's based on the socially logical principle of freedom, as opposed to a made-up chumra based on a made-up Gemara based on a book written by some guys a few thousand years ago that shouldn't affect anyone any more than Moby Dick does (as in, a nice piece of fiction).
64
Dec 22, 2011 at 11:11 AM HaNavon Says:Report as Inappropriate
#56,
That type of 'accidental smelling' isn't an issue in halacha.
Look, if it bothers you, then walk!
Just make sure that you aren't mvazeh a talmid chacham. You'll get a big cosmic smackdown!
65
Dec 22, 2011 at 08:50 PM harryw Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I disagree with the Satmar Rebbe on many if not most issues, but would never dream of speaking about him in the disgraceful manner in which you speak against Rav Yosef and his father. If this is a product of your learning, I can almost disregard anything else you have to say.
Also, Rav Moshe Feinstein also paskined that it is ok to sit next to women when traveling...do you think he was stupid too? ”
Let just start by saying that you are no contest to the satmar rebbe ztl. Besides his great knowladge of torah he was a tremendous baal chesed and gave away his last penny for the needy no matter of what background or way of life. No gadol in his era came close to matching his level of chesed. At the same time he was steadfast and unwaiverable with anything that relates to torah and halacha. He feared no one and had no need to sweet talk about anything to any one.
Let's get another point out here. This whole discussion is not about someone who violently whether pyshical or verbal stands up a woman and sends her to the back. There is no place in torah and chasidos for such behavior. The issue is also not a scenario where a man comes up on the bus and finds all seats full and askes a woman who is seated upfront so he can sit and she gets to stand. That's not it. The issue is wether it is fair to establish a system of segeregation on the buses where as the man sit in one section and the woman in a seperate section.
Let's assume it is not against halacha to sit next to a woman even though you lean against her or smell her perfume. It is certainly more reputable not to sit. What would have r moshe feinstein z"l said if we asked him weather to implement such mehadrin buses or rather let the mixed seating go on since its not agaist halacha ? Of course he would encourage such advansment and perfection in a jewish lifestyle and environment.
I strongly urge the yosef family to realize that they can't be both. You just cant be a true posek and daas torah and play politics in the same time. It just dosnt jive. Not only will you hold back from saying openly the true daas torah. In fact, you will not see the truth at all.