“ I am sorry Rabbi Horowoitz, you mean well and do much good but you are wrong and have been wrong on this issue before. It is first and foremost the responsibility of the RABBINIC LEADERSHIP to forcefully and explicitly denounce this Colossal Chilul Hashem. It is not enough for them to denounce it because it is a chilul Hashem, but to denounce it because the whole hashkafa of this group that you refer to as the “one percent” is just as treif as eating Chazir and their approach to Yiddishkeit is against Halacha on all levels. The Rabbonim and specifically the Gedolim and we all know who they are, need to come out and say meforash that
1. There is no issur to sit next to a woman on a bus
2. It is Assur to ask women to move to the back of the bus
3. It is Assur to put up signs asking women to only walk on certain sides of a street
4. It is Assur to spit on another human being and Ain Lo Chelek Lolam Haba to one who does so
5. It is Assur to call another Jew a “Nazi” and Ail Lo Chelek Lolam Haba to one who does so
6. It is Assur to sing the Neturei Karta Song
7. It is Assur to assault or harrass another human being ”

“ That the Rabbinic leadership does NOT denounce what Horowitz deems offensive is proof to me that there's another side to the equation that the Israeli media is not reporting. ”

“ That the Rabbinic leadership does NOT denounce what Horowitz deems offensive is proof to me that there's another side to the equation that the Israeli media is not reporting. ”

“ I am sorry Rabbi Horowoitz, you mean well and do much good but you are wrong and have been wrong on this issue before. It is first and foremost the responsibility of the RABBINIC LEADERSHIP to forcefully and explicitly denounce this Colossal Chilul Hashem. It is not enough for them to denounce it because it is a chilul Hashem, but to denounce it because the whole hashkafa of this group that you refer to as the “one percent” is just as treif as eating Chazir and their approach to Yiddishkeit is against Halacha on all levels. The Rabbonim and specifically the Gedolim and we all know who they are, need to come out and say meforash that
1. There is no issur to sit next to a woman on a bus
2. It is Assur to ask women to move to the back of the bus
3. It is Assur to put up signs asking women to only walk on certain sides of a street
4. It is Assur to spit on another human being and Ain Lo Chelek Lolam Haba to one who does so
5. It is Assur to call another Jew a “Nazi” and Ail Lo Chelek Lolam Haba to one who does so
6. It is Assur to sing the Neturei Karta Song
7. It is Assur to assault or harrass another human being ”

“ I am sorry Rabbi Horowoitz, you mean well and do much good but you are wrong and have been wrong on this issue before. It is first and foremost the responsibility of the RABBINIC LEADERSHIP to forcefully and explicitly denounce this Colossal Chilul Hashem. It is not enough for them to denounce it because it is a chilul Hashem, but to denounce it because the whole hashkafa of this group that you refer to as the “one percent” is just as treif as eating Chazir and their approach to Yiddishkeit is against Halacha on all levels. The Rabbonim and specifically the Gedolim and we all know who they are, need to come out and say meforash that
1. There is no issur to sit next to a woman on a bus
2. It is Assur to ask women to move to the back of the bus
3. It is Assur to put up signs asking women to only walk on certain sides of a street
4. It is Assur to spit on another human being and Ain Lo Chelek Lolam Haba to one who does so
5. It is Assur to call another Jew a “Nazi” and Ail Lo Chelek Lolam Haba to one who does so
6. It is Assur to sing the Neturei Karta Song
7. It is Assur to assault or harrass another human being ”

“ That the Rabbinic leadership does NOT denounce what Horowitz deems offensive is proof to me that there's another side to the equation that the Israeli media is not reporting. ”

“ The 1% is getting all the media attention due to the passiveness of the 99%.

Not true! The media attention is soley due to the fact that the media is a charedi bashing machine.

The media know well that the majority of charedim are appalled by dispicable actions such as an adult "man" spitting on a seven year old school girl, but they are not interested in presenting the true picture.

The media also knows well, that for every child spit on by a charedi man, 1000 girls are raped by non-charedim in Israel. But hey, who cares; not the media, nor the police. ”

“ To. #11 the other side of the story that Rabbi Horowitz doesn't want you to talk about is! That this whole ordeal is not at all anymore about spitting on school children (and on that Yes 99% agrees that is not allowed) ITS ABOUT THE SIGNS!!!! And YES 99% agrees that it should stay there...it was always there! Who is Mrs Clinton and Natanyuihi to have a Word in our Holy Tora and Holy Land This is what the fight is!! AND TO YOU Rabbi Horowitz!! with all due respect this Chanifa L'rshuim Aint gonna help you they Hate you anyway with your Beard and Payois!!! Rather don't twist away from what this fight is about and BE OF THE 99% EHRLICH YIDEN that wanna live with these signs Btzniot and Kedisha...Halvai we have it here in the US we would have less problems...you know what I'm talking about RABBI!!! ”

“ #11 what "other side" can there possibly be?? That little girls DESERVE to be harassed?? Is there "another side" to the World Trade Center bombing? ”

“ The 1% is getting all the media attention due to the passiveness of the 99%.

Not true! The media attention is soley due to the fact that the media is a charedi bashing machine.

The media know well that the majority of charedim are appalled by dispicable actions such as an adult "man" spitting on a seven year old school girl, but they are not interested in presenting the true picture.

The media also knows well, that for every child spit on by a charedi man, 1000 girls are raped by non-charedim in Israel. But hey, who cares; not the media, nor the police. ”

“ With all respect to Rabbi Horowitz You are wrong!
Orthodox Jews are a community that have stuck to torah principles and not modernized. You are either modern or orthodox.
As for us we have been guided by our Torah Rabonim and not by commentators and the media.
A real kidush hashem is when Jews stick to the Isur of Velo Yieyeh Becho Ervas Dovor and that is what the torah calls Venikdashti Besoch Benei Yisroel and Chilul Hashem is to keep quiet on Peritzus.
I have personally asked my old Non-Kanoi Rebe for the Torah opinion about it and he told me that this is called a kidush hashem.
As for the Issurim mentioned by #2
1. There is no issur to sit next to a woman on a bus
2. It is Assur to ask women to move to the back of the bus
3. It is Assur to put up signs asking women to only walk on certain sides of a street
4. It is Assur to spit on another human being and Ain Lo Chelek Lolam Haba to one who does so
5. It is Assur to call another Jew a “Nazi” and Ail Lo Chelek Lolam Haba to one who does so
6. It is Assur to sing the Neturei Karta Song
7. It is Assur to assault or harrass another human being
please verify your facts by Rav Elyashuv or any rov willing to write a teshuvah first ”

“ I am sorry Rabbi Horowoitz, you mean well and do much good but you are wrong and have been wrong on this issue before. It is first and foremost the responsibility of the RABBINIC LEADERSHIP to forcefully and explicitly denounce this Colossal Chilul Hashem. It is not enough for them to denounce it because it is a chilul Hashem, but to denounce it because the whole hashkafa of this group that you refer to as the “one percent” is just as treif as eating Chazir and their approach to Yiddishkeit is against Halacha on all levels. The Rabbonim and specifically the Gedolim and we all know who they are, need to come out and say meforash that
1. There is no issur to sit next to a woman on a bus
2. It is Assur to ask women to move to the back of the bus
3. It is Assur to put up signs asking women to only walk on certain sides of a street
4. It is Assur to spit on another human being and Ain Lo Chelek Lolam Haba to one who does so
5. It is Assur to call another Jew a “Nazi” and Ail Lo Chelek Lolam Haba to one who does so
6. It is Assur to sing the Neturei Karta Song
7. It is Assur to assault or harrass another human being ”

“ I am sorry Rabbi Horowoitz, you mean well and do much good but you are wrong and have been wrong on this issue before. It is first and foremost the responsibility of the RABBINIC LEADERSHIP to forcefully and explicitly denounce this Colossal Chilul Hashem. It is not enough for them to denounce it because it is a chilul Hashem, but to denounce it because the whole hashkafa of this group that you refer to as the “one percent” is just as treif as eating Chazir and their approach to Yiddishkeit is against Halacha on all levels. The Rabbonim and specifically the Gedolim and we all know who they are, need to come out and say meforash that
1. There is no issur to sit next to a woman on a bus
2. It is Assur to ask women to move to the back of the bus
3. It is Assur to put up signs asking women to only walk on certain sides of a street
4. It is Assur to spit on another human being and Ain Lo Chelek Lolam Haba to one who does so
5. It is Assur to call another Jew a “Nazi” and Ail Lo Chelek Lolam Haba to one who does so
6. It is Assur to sing the Neturei Karta Song
7. It is Assur to assault or harrass another human being ”

“ I am sorry Rabbi Horowoitz, you mean well and do much good but you are wrong and have been wrong on this issue before. It is first and foremost the responsibility of the RABBINIC LEADERSHIP to forcefully and explicitly denounce this Colossal Chilul Hashem. It is not enough for them to denounce it because it is a chilul Hashem, but to denounce it because the whole hashkafa of this group that you refer to as the “one percent” is just as treif as eating Chazir and their approach to Yiddishkeit is against Halacha on all levels. The Rabbonim and specifically the Gedolim and we all know who they are, need to come out and say meforash that
1. There is no issur to sit next to a woman on a bus
2. It is Assur to ask women to move to the back of the bus
3. It is Assur to put up signs asking women to only walk on certain sides of a street
4. It is Assur to spit on another human being and Ain Lo Chelek Lolam Haba to one who does so
5. It is Assur to call another Jew a “Nazi” and Ail Lo Chelek Lolam Haba to one who does so
6. It is Assur to sing the Neturei Karta Song
7. It is Assur to assault or harrass another human being ”

“ your argument is silly. The existence of rape has little bearing on the argument. Sex crimes exist in all societies and the Israeli government and people do their best to proscute those henious villains, but that has no bearing on this case. Of course there is media bias and rampant anti-chareidizm but that is just playing the victim card. If you believe what these chareidim are doing is wrong and there is a consensus by the other 99% of chareidim (which I doubt), then where are they. They have a responsibilty to make themselves heard. Personally, I don't know what is happening so I will not allow my emotions to pick a side even if 1 chareidi alledgedly did something despicable, but your beliefs have to fit in some logical framework. ”

“ As is well known, one does not need a Teshuva written by a Poseik, to pasken that what is already Poskened on in the Shulchan Aruch, is actually the Halacha. I will therefore enlighten you and reiterate what I mentioned in a previous post which so far has not been posted by VIN.
1.Anyone who embarrases someone else or to be more precise Col Hamalbin Pnei Chavero B'rabim AIn Lo chelek L'olam Habo. Most of the Poskim actually consider this a Yaharog Val Yaavor on Par with Retzicha.
2. Lo Sono - the prohibition of Onaas Devarim
3. Lo Sisna - the prohibition of hating another Jew
Etc. Etc. Etc
If you need a Psak from Rav Elyashiv that this is so, then you need not to have your head examined, but you need to go to the head store and buy yourself a new head and flush the old one down a drain. ”

“ Finally someone who gets it. I don't agree with all your views about segregation. I think it is the Hungariazation of judaism. This overfrumness only existed in pre-war Hungary. But, you are right, people are missing the big picture. It all started when Hillary ym's condemned the bus segregation, which I believe is not neccessary, but is legitamate. The leftists than used their minions to fan those flames. They then found some alledged dumb chareidi radicals going about their daily moronic doings and are using that to create more anti-charedism. The chareidi public has been checkmated into the situation they are in now. The hatred I see spewing here just plays into the anti-chareidi media game. ”

“ I find the whole situation with the school & behavior of Charadi hooligans to be very disturbing. It’s shocking to me that most of the Charadi leadership is passive/approving in was face such a clear Chillul Hashem by so called “Zealots”. How does it make any sense to them to congregate in area were they claim there is “pritzus”? Should they be walking blocks away from the area. The issue with side walk / buses is a little bit different, but there is no basis for this Jewish halacha & tradition. It’s issur to both subtract and add to the Torah.
Another thing that is shocking is that some people are trying to find excuses for "Zealot"'s behavior. To #12 & # 14, the things you have mentioned may be true, but do not worry about the secular / media, it’s Chillul Hashem by these mamzerim that all of us should be worrying about and unqualifiedly condemning. ”

“ You said
"2. It is Assur to ask women to move to the back of the bus
3. It is Assur to put up signs asking women to only walk on certain sides of a street
6. It is Assur to sing the Neturei Karta Song
You may disagree with those actions but why are they assur? On a separate note I think you are zealosly falsifying the truth when you say "most" poskim believe that it is Yeharog Veal Yaavor, and no one says it is on par with retzicha just possibly an abizrahu deritzichz. Honestly, do you think any rov would be machmir and tell you to get yourself killed not to embarrass another Jew. Yes it is a legitamate halachik viewpoint, but don't turn it into demagoguery. ”

“ Finally someone who gets it. I don't agree with all your views about segregation. I think it is the Hungariazation of judaism. This overfrumness only existed in pre-war Hungary. But, you are right, people are missing the big picture. It all started when Hillary ym's condemned the bus segregation, which I believe is not neccessary, but is legitamate. The leftists than used their minions to fan those flames. They then found some alledged dumb chareidi radicals going about their daily moronic doings and are using that to create more anti-charedism. The chareidi public has been checkmated into the situation they are in now. The hatred I see spewing here just plays into the anti-chareidi media game. ”

“ very important note in the letter and the news this isnt beit shemesh it is a few people!!!! I live a few minute walk from that are and have no idea what is going on there until i look here on line. it is all a huge mountain out of a mole ill to get votes nfor elections!!!!!!!!! ”

“ Nice as far as it goes, but doesn't go nearly far enough. The hatred for modern orthodoxy among the Chareidim has long, deep roots, taught by its leadership, and this latest public outbreak of violence is only unique for capturing international media attention. The Associated Press article is the lead story on today's AOL. The proposed letter to various editors is pareve, in merely condemning "harassment and violence". The Chareidi violence against children is the product of a warped hashkafah which teaches hatred. It is also the source of child abuse and coverup. It is the Chareidi hashkafa which spits on children, the modern orthodox, and even Greek orthodox clerics minding their own business. When a Chareidi gadol gives a speech about shalom with the modern orthodox, only then will real change happen. In the meantime, I've checked out from that crowd, never to return. I have no stomach for sheker, and today I'm a fulfilled, happy modern orthodox Jew. ”

“ This overfrumness only existed in pre-war Hungary.

So in Poland and Galicia they wre dancing together in discos? Maybe in the Litte. What absolute garbage. ”

“ As is well known, one does not need a Teshuva written by a Poseik, to pasken that what is already Poskened on in the Shulchan Aruch, is actually the Halacha. I will therefore enlighten you and reiterate what I mentioned in a previous post which so far has not been posted by VIN.
1.Anyone who embarrases someone else or to be more precise Col Hamalbin Pnei Chavero B'rabim AIn Lo chelek L'olam Habo. Most of the Poskim actually consider this a Yaharog Val Yaavor on Par with Retzicha.
2. Lo Sono - the prohibition of Onaas Devarim
3. Lo Sisna - the prohibition of hating another Jew
Etc. Etc. Etc
If you need a Psak from Rav Elyashiv that this is so, then you need not to have your head examined, but you need to go to the head store and buy yourself a new head and flush the old one down a drain. ”

“ Just look at the smile of the kid in the picture and you will see all that is wrong with chinuch today. ”

“ I'm cancelling my family's trip next week to Israel. Was taking the kids and grandkids, but feel it's not safe now. Too bad. ”

“ There are things that you are allowed to be Malbin for like speaking during shmonah esrah where says Goarim Bo and that is surely when it comes to kanoes the equivelent of Pinchas ”

“ Why is everyone becoming so excited over what's happening in Israel when this is going every week Shabbos, in Boro Park, and in Williamsburg, when zealots Harass men women and children because they carry Shabbos with an Eiruv that is not to their liking? These so called zealots have no problem shaming other people in public, a sin that nullifies ones Oilem Haba, according to Chaza"l, and their Rabonim encourage, and support them. Why don't we fix our own communities here in the USA before we wage war on the zealots in Israel. ”

“ What exactly is "Modern Orthodoxy", I have heard about it but don't know what it means, please explain. ”

“ 1. The term "charedi-hooligans" is in itself loshan hora. There is a group of Jews termed charedim, which means G-d fearing, as they are strict in their observance of halacha. To say that there are charedi hooligans defames the entire group. Rather there are hooligans dressed as charedim living within the charedi community.
2. It is a false assumption and motzie shem ra to post on the internet that charedi leadership is passive/approving of such hooliganism. Do you really think it would honor the charedi community for their leaders to make press anouncements that it it forbidden for adult men to spit on little girls???!!! Perhaps they should also make a press release that it is STRICTLY forbidden to chop up boys into pieces? ”

“ It's actually true. My grandfather remembers clearly that men and womwn sat together at all simchas in Williamsburgh until the Hungarians came along. ”

“ I'm cancelling my family's trip next week to Israel. Was taking the kids and grandkids, but feel it's not safe now. Too bad. ”

“ And my Bubbe remembers when most of the Yidden in America worked on Shabbos before there was a huge influx of Charedi Jews. What a shame that they came along, had they not come we would be able to continue the trend of Yidden in America lowering their observance level generation after generation - right?

Do you think that your zeide's zeide who lived in Europe would have attended a simcha with a few hundred couples who were sitting mixed? I highly doubt it. ”

“ And my Bubbe remembers when most of the Yidden in America worked on Shabbos before there was a huge influx of Charedi Jews. What a shame that they came along, had they not come we would be able to continue the trend of Yidden in America lowering their observance level generation after generation - right?

Do you think that your zeide's zeide who lived in Europe would have attended a simcha with a few hundred couples who were sitting mixed? I highly doubt it. ”

“ And my Bubbe remembers when most of the Yidden in America worked on Shabbos before there was a huge influx of Charedi Jews. What a shame that they came along, had they not come we would be able to continue the trend of Yidden in America lowering their observance level generation after generation - right?

Do you think that your zeide's zeide who lived in Europe would have attended a simcha with a few hundred couples who were sitting mixed? I highly doubt it. ”

“ Just look at the smile of the kid in the picture and you will see all that is wrong with chinuch today. ”

“ zealots are the ones that are מחלל שבת in english "disgrace the shabos" by carrying. they are the ones that shaming shabos. ”

“ 1. I was not saying that ALL Charedi are hooligans, which would indeed be defaming the entire group. But I did not hear that people involve in attacks against little girls were put in herem, so they Charedi hooligans. If they were thrown out of the community, then it would be appropriate to call them "hooligans dressed as charedim ."
2. It’s exactly the problem, it’s not Gadolim honor , it’s TORAH’s honor that we should be worried about. I do not see any connection with the sad story of what happened to Leiby Kletzky. In the case in hand, we have a situation where a group of "frum" people consistently & openly commit disgraceful acts on day to day basis. The topic of reporting crimes to secular authority is the whole area where a lot could be said, but we should probably leave it out of this discussion. ”

“ yes, that they are not totally against it. The rabbonim, if they are true leaders, should have every bachur in their yeshiva go out and civily protest against this madness. If they are true leaders, they should be giving shmuzin about how wrong it is and for the need to stand up against these animals. If they were true leaders, they would issue the kol koreh's they issue for all the small things they have been issued for. If they were true leaders they would boycott the hashgachas of the larger groups they associate with until THIER leaders came and did the same.
And as a side note, your wording of "...does not denounce what Horowitz deems offensive" shows what camp you are in.
R' Horowitz in one day most likely does more than your simple, lay mind can conceptualize and is certainly doing more than the "rabbonim" who remain silent. ”

“ Your comment is inappropriate. The child in the picture is clearly challenged or developmentally disabled. You should not use such a photo as an indictment of the entire system of chinuch for Chareidim in EY. Normal children from the Chareidi schools do not have such a sick smile when their parents or older siblings are engaged in such a heated and emotionally charged verbal battle. ”

“ What exactly is "Modern Orthodoxy", I have heard about it but don't know what it means, please explain. ”

“ Why for heaven sake so busy fighting the chareidim (whether right or wrong) and protesting their actions whilst all of us -- and the author of this post -- are quiet when there is huge chillul shabbos, and other aveiros? Is it really so terrible that a few woman have to go back of the bus? Would you rather walk in a hareidi neighborhood or a secular neighborhood where there is all sorts of crime, and why? - because the chareidim are really peaceful, yerei hashem and Hashem's torah? And the reason the freier and the modern orthordox are making such a tumult about some minor incidents is because they want to bring down the chareidi way of life and Hashem's torah. I am not saying everything is ok, all I say is that (the same tumult demonstrating in the name of torah of course) should be done ten fold for all the great mitzvos being tread upon (incuding kol isha in a state sanctioned place) by the same freier & the State of Israel who protesting the frummer, and people who are holding on to the mesorah of torah and mitzos. And I say the same to R Horovitz where are you when mitzvos are torn down anywhere -- do you scream with the same passion as when you talk to the (terrible) chareidm ”

“ You're right that the community should put the hooligans in cherim. But the community leaders have their hands tied behind their backs in this medina. They don't have governmental authority, nor do they control the police, nor are they given the necessary funding to handle this and many other problems of hoodlims in the community. If the leaders would take on these hoodlims, there cars would be set on fire, and rocks would come through their windows, and the neither the police nor the courts would protect the rabbis, rather the courts would protect the hoodlims if the leaders did anything like taking the law into their own hands.

So the only recourse is to turn to the police. That is what the community rabbonem and leaders recomend when being attacked by hoodlims dressed as charedim. Since the courts and police control all the authority, the blame for these crimes needs to be put on them and not upon the charedi community or their leaders who are forbidden by the courts from implementing justice. ”

“ yes, that they are not totally against it. The rabbonim, if they are true leaders, should have every bachur in their yeshiva go out and civily protest against this madness. If they are true leaders, they should be giving shmuzin about how wrong it is and for the need to stand up against these animals. If they were true leaders, they would issue the kol koreh's they issue for all the small things they have been issued for. If they were true leaders they would boycott the hashgachas of the larger groups they associate with until THIER leaders came and did the same.
And as a side note, your wording of "...does not denounce what Horowitz deems offensive" shows what camp you are in.
R' Horowitz in one day most likely does more than your simple, lay mind can conceptualize and is certainly doing more than the "rabbonim" who remain silent. ”

“ For heaven sake this is a media installed demonstration against chareidim and what every toah and yiras shomayim person stands for. Its on Chanukah too -- and whom do you think are the misyavnim of today? Israeli leaders - leading the charge against frum Jews - are mechallel shabbos, and they should be the one's rebuking the chareidim in israel, and was anyone murdered or hurt and were the woman trampled on or even touched (they were sspat upon)? This is entriely a media circus wh, R Horovitz is contributing to. ”

“ So I assume you want to go on record here and state unequivocally that say the Gedolim of the earlier generations like Rav Aharon Kotler, Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Yaakov Kamenitzky, and Rav Solevetchik never sat with their wives at any functions? I'm sure without too much work someone could pull out an old black and white photo to prove you wrong. ”

“ My zaide's zaide was a Radomsker dayan and yes, I believe he would have. Plenty of gedolim in Williamsburgh before the Hungarians came along. COmparing sitting at a mixed table to chilul Shabbos demonstrates how you epitomize the damaging trend taking place. ”

“ So I assume you want to go on record here and state unequivocally that say the Gedolim of the earlier generations like Rav Aharon Kotler, Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Yaakov Kamenitzky, and Rav Solevetchik never sat with their wives at any functions? I'm sure without too much work someone could pull out an old black and white photo to prove you wrong. ”

“ Our grandparents were more normal than these crazy fanatics. Yes, they had mixed seating weddings, and there was nothing wrong with it. You didn't have our community producing child butchers like Levy Aron in those years. ”

“ Why for heaven sake so busy fighting the chareidim (whether right or wrong) and protesting their actions whilst all of us -- and the author of this post -- are quiet when there is huge chillul shabbos, and other aveiros? Is it really so terrible that a few woman have to go back of the bus? Would you rather walk in a hareidi neighborhood or a secular neighborhood where there is all sorts of crime, and why? - because the chareidim are really peaceful, yerei hashem and Hashem's torah? And the reason the freier and the modern orthordox are making such a tumult about some minor incidents is because they want to bring down the chareidi way of life and Hashem's torah. I am not saying everything is ok, all I say is that (the same tumult demonstrating in the name of torah of course) should be done ten fold for all the great mitzvos being tread upon (incuding kol isha in a state sanctioned place) by the same freier & the State of Israel who protesting the frummer, and people who are holding on to the mesorah of torah and mitzos. And I say the same to R Horovitz where are you when mitzvos are torn down anywhere -- do you scream with the same passion as when you talk to the (terrible) chareidm ”

“ You're right that the community should put the hooligans in cherim. But the community leaders have their hands tied behind their backs in this medina. They don't have governmental authority, nor do they control the police, nor are they given the necessary funding to handle this and many other problems of hoodlims in the community. If the leaders would take on these hoodlims, there cars would be set on fire, and rocks would come through their windows, and the neither the police nor the courts would protect the rabbis, rather the courts would protect the hoodlims if the leaders did anything like taking the law into their own hands.

So the only recourse is to turn to the police. That is what the community rabbonem and leaders recomend when being attacked by hoodlims dressed as charedim. Since the courts and police control all the authority, the blame for these crimes needs to be put on them and not upon the charedi community or their leaders who are forbidden by the courts from implementing justice. ”

“ For heaven sake this is a media installed demonstration against chareidim and what every toah and yiras shomayim person stands for. Its on Chanukah too -- and whom do you think are the misyavnim of today? Israeli leaders - leading the charge against frum Jews - are mechallel shabbos, and they should be the one's rebuking the chareidim in israel, and was anyone murdered or hurt and were the woman trampled on or even touched (they were sspat upon)? This is entriely a media circus wh, R Horovitz is contributing to. ”

“ They are not my "moral beliefs", they are Halacha and Torah that every Bar Bay Rav should know. Go to Yeshiva and learn a little and you will see that.
For starters.......
1. Kol Hamalbin Pnei Chavero Ain Lo chelek L'olam Haba
2. Onaas Devarim
3. Lo sisna es Achicha
4. Lo saamod Al dam Re'acha
I might add that if your Rov does not agree with the above, get yourself a new Rov. ”

“ Why for heaven sake so busy fighting the chareidim (whether right or wrong) and protesting their actions whilst all of us -- and the author of this post -- are quiet when there is huge chillul shabbos, and other aveiros? Is it really so terrible that a few woman have to go back of the bus? Would you rather walk in a hareidi neighborhood or a secular neighborhood where there is all sorts of crime, and why? - because the chareidim are really peaceful, yerei hashem and Hashem's torah? And the reason the freier and the modern orthordox are making such a tumult about some minor incidents is because they want to bring down the chareidi way of life and Hashem's torah. I am not saying everything is ok, all I say is that (the same tumult demonstrating in the name of torah of course) should be done ten fold for all the great mitzvos being tread upon (incuding kol isha in a state sanctioned place) by the same freier & the State of Israel who protesting the frummer, and people who are holding on to the mesorah of torah and mitzos. And I say the same to R Horovitz where are you when mitzvos are torn down anywhere -- do you scream with the same passion as when you talk to the (terrible) chareidm ”

“ When you show me a photograph of one of the Gedolim from the past generation sitting by a simchah with mixed seating and you can prove that: 1) There were many women there who were not his relatives. 2) It was done because the Gadol thought that it was proper and not because of some other reason (e.g. shalom bayis, an invitation he for some reason could not decline, etc.). Then I will be convinced, till then your words are cheap and have no facts to back them.

Let the search begin, and let me know when your done. I'll be waiting. ”

“ #104 You justify the mixed seating by gedolim be cause "It was done because the Gadol thought that it was proper and not because of some other reason (e.g. shalom bayis, an invitation he for some reason could not decline, etc.)"

Yet you disallow and ignore the harms caused by these self appointed zealots. if a gadol can act with shev val taaseh by being seated near a woman, how can you just these juts spitting and yelling at others? ”

“ Just look in any wedding album from the 40's through the 60's and you will see mamash hundreds of such photos. The world didn't start and doesn't end with you sonny boy. Sorry if your ma and ta told you otherwise. ”

“ I have just seen a YouTube about a satmar Event I think from the 70's and you clrearly see the rebbe r' Yoel sitting and his wife running the whole show! On the stage in front off all the Chasidim. Nobody dare to put a sign in front of her, actually the men had to move aside for her out of respect, what happen to this generation, there no respect to the elderly or to the mothers of the next generation! No wonder why so many are falling out to respect the Torah and Halocha, everyone is busy with this nonsense while our kids are watching and laughing at the whole thing. ”

“ The following comment appeared on the VIN article about the mayor of Beit Shemesh which appeared today at 10:26 a.m. I have no idea whether the story is true, but I've heard many like it.

The commenter writes:

"I recently traveld on an ElAl flight from New York to Israel, and HaGoan Reb. Berel Povarsky was on board, and seated next to a non frum women. I attempted to switch my seat to hers to enable the Rosh Hayeshiva to sit next to a frum man. The woman saw what was going on and she insisted she is not moving "no way". The Rosh Hayeshiva saw that she was not willing to budge; he told me, Please don't make a scene as not to hurt her feelings. I met the Rosh hyeshiva at a later time and he thanked me for not hurting her. So let all these great fanatics read this story and learn from a Talmud chuchem how to act in public." ”

“ #2 -All those Issurim apply to Jews who keep the Torah, but the MO don't. Or you don't believe that dressing Tzinus is part of the Torah?
I'll assume you're misguided and don't know when these Issurim apply. But if you think they apply to all Jews, not just Frum ones B'shita -then you are Megaleh Ponim B'Torah Shelo K'Halacha and You don't have a Chelek in Olam Haboh! ”

“ #2 -All those Issurim apply to Jews who keep the Torah, but the MO don't. Or you don't believe that dressing Tzinus is part of the Torah?
I'll assume you're misguided and don't know when these Issurim apply. But if you think they apply to all Jews, not just Frum ones B'shita -then you are Megaleh Ponim B'Torah Shelo K'Halacha and You don't have a Chelek in Olam Haboh! ”

“ At last, one of the right wingers has actually come out and said what he really believes: "The Modern Orthodox don't keep the Torah."

This intolerance and hatred is the root of all the problems. ”

“ I am 75 now and I saw many Gedolim of the last Dor walk out of weddings of talmidim after the chuppah since there was mixed seating for the dinner.

These included Rav Yaakov, Rav Aharon, Reb Yonason Shteiff, the Boyaner Rebbe, Reb Yankel Teitelbaum, and others that I do not recall.

And these were from the weddings of freinds of mine from Torah Vodaas. ”

“ With all respect to Rabbi Horowitz You are wrong!
Orthodox Jews are a community that have stuck to torah principles and not modernized. You are either modern or orthodox.
As for us we have been guided by our Torah Rabonim and not by commentators and the media.
A real kidush hashem is when Jews stick to the Isur of Velo Yieyeh Becho Ervas Dovor and that is what the torah calls Venikdashti Besoch Benei Yisroel and Chilul Hashem is to keep quiet on Peritzus.
I have personally asked my old Non-Kanoi Rebe for the Torah opinion about it and he told me that this is called a kidush hashem.
As for the Issurim mentioned by #2
1. There is no issur to sit next to a woman on a bus
2. It is Assur to ask women to move to the back of the bus
3. It is Assur to put up signs asking women to only walk on certain sides of a street
4. It is Assur to spit on another human being and Ain Lo Chelek Lolam Haba to one who does so
5. It is Assur to call another Jew a “Nazi” and Ail Lo Chelek Lolam Haba to one who does so
6. It is Assur to sing the Neturei Karta Song
7. It is Assur to assault or harrass another human being
please verify your facts by Rav Elyashuv or any rov willing to write a teshuvah first ”

“ Before anything I want to make clear that I absolutely do not equate Chillul Shabbos to mixed seating. I was just trying to make a point that because (certain people of) an earlier generation was less stringent in certain areas of Yiddishkeit it doesn't mean that there is no room for improvement.

Regarding your zeide's zeide who was a Radomsker Dayan - sorry, I simply don't believe that he would have sat by a simcha that had hundreds of people (many of them not his relatives) and had mixed seating. I myself am from Polish Chassidic lineage, and I have read a lot about Polish Chassidim. Don't look at your chashuve zeide through the lens of your own worldview, look at him through HIS OWN worldview (which was probably very different than yours).

Again, my point is NOT that you can't go to simchas that have mixed seating, that's up to your Rav to decide. All that I'm saying is that if people want to strengthen themselves in certain areas of Yiddishkeit (legitimate stuff, not spitting at young girls!) - Mah Tov U'mah No'im.

Any other questions? ”

“ I am 75 now and I saw many Gedolim of the last Dor walk out of weddings of talmidim after the chuppah since there was mixed seating for the dinner.

These included Rav Yaakov, Rav Aharon, Reb Yonason Shteiff, the Boyaner Rebbe, Reb Yankel Teitelbaum, and others that I do not recall.

And these were from the weddings of freinds of mine from Torah Vodaas. ”

“ #2 -All those Issurim apply to Jews who keep the Torah, but the MO don't. Or you don't believe that dressing Tzinus is part of the Torah?
I'll assume you're misguided and don't know when these Issurim apply. But if you think they apply to all Jews, not just Frum ones B'shita -then you are Megaleh Ponim B'Torah Shelo K'Halacha and You don't have a Chelek in Olam Haboh! ”

“ "3. It is Assur to put up signs asking women to only walk on certain sides of a street"
Where'd you pick up that one? Orthodox Jews have always practiced separation of genders. A community has a right to set its own rules for accepted public conduct. A bachor proved this point well, when chumatz was sold on pesach in "public" in a store; he took off all his clothes and was arrested for indecent behavior in "public", disproving the stores claim that inside the store is not considered selling chametz in public.

"1. There is no issur to sit next to a woman on a bus"
It is certainly forbidden to sit next to someone else's wife on the bus. What planet are you from?

"2. It is Assur to ask women to move to the back of the bus"
If it is done politely and respectfully, there is no issur in making such a request. All the gedolim agree that the proper practice is that women should sit in the back such that the men won't be facing them for the length of the trip. If the buses were designed with the seats facing backwards, the rabbonim would order the men to the back. However, the rabbonem have been clear, that the policy is only a recommendation, and not to be imposed. ”

“ contd. from #135.
The Chazon Ish is in Yoreh Deah, Hilchos Shecitah 2:28.
He writes there that it is a mitzvah to love the wicked (מצוה לאהוב את הרשעים), because we can't assume that he is wicked unless he has been rebuked properly and ignores the rebuke, and no one nowadays knows how to give rebuke. ”

“ Maybe the "non" frum woman had an aisle seat and you didn't. Perhaps the Rov could have switched with you. You cannot and should not expect others who have chosen their seat carefully perhaps months in advance to move just because people think they are entitled to it. The only exception is if you are offering the person a better seat. This is why people have unfavorable views about frum people. Any person so concerned about sitting next to a person should not travel period. The world owes you gornisht! ”

“ Very sorry to inform you. But, I totally disagree with you.

You are dead wrong on items 1,2,3 and correct on the others. If you have a problem with the concept of tznios like many of the bloggers here have then take it up directly with hashem. The rabbanim are here to voice the halacha the way we know it for generations and not the way you like to interpet it to benefit you and your yetzer hora.

Sorry ”

“ I'm sure your great grandparents believed in spontaneous generation of life
I'm sure your great great granparents would have been horrified to send their daughters to beis yaakov
and your great-great-great ....grandfather would have supported burning the Rambam's seforim and probably thought that the world was flat

Just because your grandparents did something in your rose-glassed crazily distored view of the old country doesn't make it right or normal and rational... ”

“ So in Torah v'dass it was normal to have mixed seating weddings -- you inadvertently proved everyone's point! ”