Israel - MK On Women Singing: Orthodox Soldiers Should Use Earplugs |
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December 28, 2011 12:17 AM
News Source: Jerusalem Post
News Source: Jerusalem Post
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Israel - Shas MK Nissim Ze’ev said Tuesday that male orthodox soldiers be allowed to use earplugs to block out women singing in official IDF ceremonies.
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Speaking at a meeting of the Knesset Committee on the Status of Women, Ze’ev also argued that such soldiers should have the right to serve in women-free units.
Head of IDF Manpower Directorate Maj.-Gen. Orna Barbivai shot back that nobody can tell a female soldier she can’t sing in a ceremony just because she’s a woman.
The committee meeting comes amid a growing national debate on women’s rights and religious rights that has most recently erupted in clashes between police and haredi Jews in Beit Shemesh.
Content is provided courtesy of the Jerusalem Post
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Read Comments (39) — Post Yours »
1
Dec 27, 2011 at 11:22 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
Orthodox Jews should not be in Tzahal, period.
2
Dec 27, 2011 at 11:38 PM kalman1 Says:Report as Inappropriate
I am confused about the relevance of the Maj.-general's response.
4
Dec 28, 2011 at 12:52 AM YOELYG Says:Report as Inappropriate
Then they wondering why the Jewish people not joining the army, its usir al pi Torah to listen to a womens voice, is isreal called a Jewish land? & what about. קול באשה ערווה?
5
Dec 28, 2011 at 12:52 AM eighthcomment Says:Report as Inappropriate
forced to violate the Torah the antisemitic chiloni paper Haaretz is silent- forced to keep the Torah, they make sure to make a chillul Hashem- Haaretz is tredding very thin ice.
6
Dec 28, 2011 at 12:53 AM Respect Says:Report as Inappropriate
There are thousands or boys in yeshiva who also serve in the army through programs like Machal, Hesder and Nachal Chareidi - with the support of their rabbanim. Assuming that one is following their rabbanim, it's important that those who serve (which is a tremendous mitzvah and zichus) have a hallachikly acceptable army experience. This is a decision for leading rabbanim to make, but it's a wonderful thing to see MKs who are willing to come to the table to try to offer options.
7
Dec 28, 2011 at 12:54 AM YJay1 Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I am confused about the relevance of the Maj.-general's response. ”
I'm also confused. The response that the General gave is the same as the one that the secular media gives all the time. They simply cannot (read: will not) comprehend that no one ever asked the girls not to sing! Let them sing to their hearts content. All we are asking, is that the soldiers who want to leave the room should be allowed. Isn't Israel a democratic country? How can they force someone to listen to something that he doesn't want to? But the secular media, and now this general keep on giving us this silly response for lack of a better one.
They're not confused because they live by the adage of "don't confuse me with the facts".
8
Dec 28, 2011 at 03:43 AM proud-mo-israeli Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Orthodox Jews should not be in Tzahal, period. ”
I have got news for you ... as an Orthodox Jew I am PROUD & HAPPY to serve in Zahal & I look down at people, like you, who do not. If it wasn't for soldiers like me & my brothers, there would be NO Jewish State.
If I had my way, there would be no social rights for anyone that did not serve in Zahal. That day will yet come.
9
Dec 28, 2011 at 05:22 AM menachemwh Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Orthodox Jews should not be in Tzahal, period. ”
an orhtodox jew is obligatet ro serve al pi halacha.
10
Dec 28, 2011 at 06:28 AM Darth_Zeidah Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Orthodox Jews should not be in Tzahal, period. ”
"Orthodox Jews should not be in Tzahal, period."
No, of course they should not. What an absurd suggestion.
Why should they carry any part of the national burden of defense when there are plenty of chilonim whose lives can be sacrificed (c"v) if necessary?
Orthodox Jews are far too superior to do anything for the country in which they live. Their role in life is merely to "learn" and to suck the chilonim dry of their taxes to support religious institutions.
It is an scandal of international proportions that "Orthodox Jews" should think it perfectly normal to live as parasites and leeches off the efforts of the 'untermenschen' chilonim.
People like the anonymous commenter number one make my blood boil and ashamed to be a G-d-fearing Jew in Israel. He and his ilk disgust me.
11
Dec 28, 2011 at 06:53 AM Reb Yid Says:Report as Inappropriate
And if the decide to force soldiers to eat pork rations or shine their shoes every morning including shabbos, then what?
12
Dec 28, 2011 at 07:08 AM mosheh Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Orthodox Jews should not be in Tzahal, period. ”
And who edactly should put on a uniform, strap on a gun, leave their families and put their lives on the line? Only the "non frum"?
I don't know where you live but if in Eretz Yisroel, you should be expelled. And you wonder why the non religious dislike us?
Shame on you. You should be hugging and thanking every soldier for risking their lives very day.
As a frum Jew, I am disgusted and embarrassed.
13
Dec 28, 2011 at 07:36 AM shredready Says:Report as Inappropriate
great solution so of course the Orthodox will be against it
14
Dec 28, 2011 at 07:36 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Orthodox Jews should not be in Tzahal, period. ”
and who should die for you then?
15
Dec 28, 2011 at 07:59 AM yoelke Says:Report as Inappropriate
Why are u cursing
16
Dec 28, 2011 at 08:31 AM Avreich1 Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ And if the decide to force soldiers to eat pork rations or shine their shoes every morning including shabbos, then what? ”
"And if the decide to force soldiers to eat pork rations or shine their shoes every morning including shabbos, then what?"
Speaking from 23 years of service experience in the IDF, Reb Yid, I can assure you that your worries and concerns are totally groundless.
Not a single Israeli soldier, sailor or airman has *ever* been asked - let alone "forced" to eat any form of treif, nor have they *ever* been asked or ordered to shine their shoes on Shabbat.
Adraba, it's quite a feat to get them to shine their shoes b'ymei hol!
17
Dec 28, 2011 at 08:33 AM SherryTheNoahide Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I'm also confused. The response that the General gave is the same as the one that the secular media gives all the time. They simply cannot (read: will not) comprehend that no one ever asked the girls not to sing! Let them sing to their hearts content. All we are asking, is that the soldiers who want to leave the room should be allowed. Isn't Israel a democratic country? How can they force someone to listen to something that he doesn't want to? But the secular media, and now this general keep on giving us this silly response for lack of a better one.
They're not confused because they live by the adage of "don't confuse me with the facts". ”
You know YJay1, I'll be honest in saying that until some kind folks on here explained to me the law about not listening to a woman singing, etc.... I gotta tell ya, I really thought this whole thing was just so degrading to women! I mean, are we seriously talking about women not being allowed to sing up on stage at a military event when THEY are also in the military serving?! And I thought, how messed up! They're risking their lives for their country... but G-d forbid someone hear them sing?!
But then, a lot of great commenters here on VIN, informed me that (a) The women in Israel actually don't go into heavy combat, so they actually probably don't always "risk their lives" like the men do - I hadn't realized that before, and (b) the new rules about the military men (can they\will they) listen to women singing, etc. are actually, as you just said, pretty democratic ones!
If the men don't want to hear a woman singing- now they can wear the earplugs! If they want to sit there w\cotton balls hanging out their ears- let 'em! Whatever it takes, so that they will feel as thought they are obeying halachah!
The women can still sing! Everybody wins this way!
(:-D
18
Dec 28, 2011 at 09:18 AM true orthodox Jew Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have got news for you ... as an Orthodox Jew I am PROUD & HAPPY to serve in Zahal & I look down at people, like you, who do not. If it wasn't for soldiers like me & my brothers, there would be NO Jewish State.
If I had my way, there would be no social rights for anyone that did not serve in Zahal. That day will yet come. ”
You are proud on your Tzahal. And We are proud with the Torah which is against Tzahal.
19
Dec 28, 2011 at 09:33 AM chosid Says:Report as Inappropriate
Why is this the issue that the leadership of the Army is fighting so hard about? Is this really so crucial for modern warfare? That women sing and everyone hear them?
It seems so obvious to just set up a compromise. This is absurd. Do they really have any doubts about why the frum will never join the army in any serious numbers? The enlightened modern democracy allows everyone freedom to do whatever they want - except frum yidden apparently.
20
Dec 28, 2011 at 09:37 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ "Orthodox Jews should not be in Tzahal, period."
No, of course they should not. What an absurd suggestion.
Why should they carry any part of the national burden of defense when there are plenty of chilonim whose lives can be sacrificed (c"v) if necessary?
Orthodox Jews are far too superior to do anything for the country in which they live. Their role in life is merely to "learn" and to suck the chilonim dry of their taxes to support religious institutions.
It is an scandal of international proportions that "Orthodox Jews" should think it perfectly normal to live as parasites and leeches off the efforts of the 'untermenschen' chilonim.
People like the anonymous commenter number one make my blood boil and ashamed to be a G-d-fearing Jew in Israel. He and his ilk disgust me. ”
Before the Zionist State was existing. The orthodox Jews were not forced to hear the Girls singing. The British Army had more respect to orthodox Jews then the Ben Gurion State.
21
Dec 28, 2011 at 09:41 AM Ben_Kol Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ You are proud on your Tzahal. And We are proud with the Torah which is against Tzahal. ”
If you think that the Torah is against defending Jewish people. you have a different Torah than mine.
22
Dec 28, 2011 at 09:47 AM happyjew Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Orthodox Jews should not be in Tzahal, period. ”
People like you are the reason we have this big chulul Hashem in the media now. As a Jew and a resident of the State of Israel every Jew has a responsibility and a privilege to serve his country even if we don't agree with everything or anything the secular government does or stands for just or even more so as we have to do if our host country requires as to serve in there army (aka USA, UK ect.).
23
Dec 28, 2011 at 09:53 AM MAYERFREUND Says:Report as Inappropriate
The editor writes "Maj.-Gen. Orna Barbivai shot backnobody can tell a female soldier she can’t sing in a ceremony just because she’s a woman".
Now with the same equal rights for the opposite gender why can't it be that nobody can tell a male soldier he can’t leave from a ceremony just because a woman sings".
24
Dec 28, 2011 at 09:56 AM shredready Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ You are proud on your Tzahal. And We are proud with the Torah which is against Tzahal. ”
good them when the arabs come to attack please do not ask for any protection from the Tzahal. or the police just sit and learn Torah that will be protection enough for you.
amazing when the Arabs come you come crying for the Tzahal. to protect you
shame on you when the chips are down you do not believe Torah "alone" will protect you
25
Dec 28, 2011 at 10:04 AM AP Says:Report as Inappropriate
Why can't orthodox soldiers be exempt from going to social military events? Someone please explain to me how attendance to these events are imperative to the security of the state of israel. Once again we have here the most secularist zionists trying to humiliate the charedim, and the charedi soldiers no less, through their leftist media outlets.
I use to think that the charedi soldiers were causing a chilul hashem when walking out when women soldiers started singing, and were also being malbin pnei chavero. But It seems evident that the tzahali, and zionist secularist are just trying to make their futile points by refusing to work with hesder and other orthodox groups in seeking exemptions for these soldiers. When they try to force there secularist beliefs upon the religious soldiers, the soldiers have no choice but to walk out of these events. Once again, you have your typical secularist zionist, leftist hypocrisy machine hard at work.
26
Dec 28, 2011 at 10:16 AM Raphael_Kaufman Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ You are proud on your Tzahal. And We are proud with the Torah which is against Tzahal. ”
"True Orthodox Jew"
Two lies for the price of one.
27
Dec 28, 2011 at 10:19 AM clear-thinker Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ You are proud on your Tzahal. And We are proud with the Torah which is against Tzahal. ”
How long did it take to think up that little ditty? Proud? Here is an answer....You are proud of your rabbi's interpretation of Torah....We are proud of the correct interpretation of Torah.....Tzahal protects you when you leave Brooklyn for e'y...you should be thankful for the medina's protection. Life is easy when you are sure that you are always right and probably the only "true" orthodox Jew.
No, I am not so full of myself to believe that halachah is easy to explain. Why are you?
28
Dec 28, 2011 at 10:27 AM unbiased Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ "Orthodox Jews should not be in Tzahal, period."
No, of course they should not. What an absurd suggestion.
Why should they carry any part of the national burden of defense when there are plenty of chilonim whose lives can be sacrificed (c"v) if necessary?
Orthodox Jews are far too superior to do anything for the country in which they live. Their role in life is merely to "learn" and to suck the chilonim dry of their taxes to support religious institutions.
It is an scandal of international proportions that "Orthodox Jews" should think it perfectly normal to live as parasites and leeches off the efforts of the 'untermenschen' chilonim.
People like the anonymous commenter number one make my blood boil and ashamed to be a G-d-fearing Jew in Israel. He and his ilk disgust me. ”
Well imho, you're oxymoroning. your entire comment suggests that you are against jews (that's what name calling as opposed to stating arguments and opinions do) ("suck the chilonim", "parasites and leeches" "untermenschen", which according to g-d fearing jews is against our torah) however you still state you are a g-d fearing jew. Every line was hatefully written (my little kid 12 years old pointed it out too!) against another yid. Sorry you need a g-d fearing tuneup if not for the last sentence being a sellout, that you are a g-d hating, frum hating, self hating jew. For this reason I do agree you should be "ashamed to be a ............"
29
Dec 28, 2011 at 10:31 AM ConcernedMember Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ You are proud on your Tzahal. And We are proud with the Torah which is against Tzahal. ”
Since it's against "Torah" perhaps your people should stop enjoying the protection provided by Tzahal and get out. Iran is lovely this time of year. The brave men AND women of Tzahal protect the lives of EVERY Jew in Israel. Not just one kind.
30
Dec 28, 2011 at 11:36 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Orthodox Jews should not be in Tzahal, period. ”
Women should not be in tzahal. It is not protecting the country to have women doing something that is contrary to halacha.
31
Dec 28, 2011 at 01:28 PM HaNavon Says:Report as Inappropriate
Multiple voices at once aren't an issur arva to listen, since they are indistinguishable.
32
Dec 28, 2011 at 02:04 PM Elmer Send Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Well imho, you're oxymoroning. your entire comment suggests that you are against jews (that's what name calling as opposed to stating arguments and opinions do) ("suck the chilonim", "parasites and leeches" "untermenschen", which according to g-d fearing jews is against our torah) however you still state you are a g-d fearing jew. Every line was hatefully written (my little kid 12 years old pointed it out too!) against another yid. Sorry you need a g-d fearing tuneup if not for the last sentence being a sellout, that you are a g-d hating, frum hating, self hating jew. For this reason I do agree you should be "ashamed to be a ............" ”
It would appear, "unbiased", (how unsuitable a name could you have chosen!) that Darth_Zeidah's message hit right home with you (and your little kid 12 years old).
Darth_Zeidah exercised his First Amendment rights to free speech, and now you have done the same. Do you feel better now?
By the way, "unbiased" , an oxymoron (plural oxymorons or oxymora) is a figure of speech that combines contradictory terms. I have read Darth_Zeidah's comment very thoroughly and I cannot find a single oxymoron therein.
Oh yes, one cannot make a continuous present tense verb (ie "you're oxymoroning") from a noun.
33
Dec 28, 2011 at 04:08 PM ShmuelG Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ I have got news for you ... as an Orthodox Jew I am PROUD & HAPPY to serve in Zahal & I look down at people, like you, who do not. If it wasn't for soldiers like me & my brothers, there would be NO Jewish State.
If I had my way, there would be no social rights for anyone that did not serve in Zahal. That day will yet come. ”
"If it wasn't for soldiers like me & my brothers, there would be NO Jewish State."
Precisely the opposite. Because of you and you brothers, we have a secular state, almost indistinguishable from "all the other states." We don't have a Jewish one.
34
Dec 28, 2011 at 05:27 PM music Says:Report as Inappropriate
The problem at hand is not whether chareidiJews should serve in Tzahal; that is for each person to decide. It is certainly a mitzvah, and if you're not sure about your decision, ask your rabbi. That's the simple part.
What we are facing is a situation that is deeply disturbing because social army events have nothing to do with protecting the country.
Furthermore, religious rights should be respected. Girls can sing, while chareidi commanders take this time to do something else.
The worrying part is that the Israeli army is forcing soldiers to do something that is against their will WHILE IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SECURITY OF THE COUNTRY!!!
That should worry all of us; chareidi, chiloni, daa'ati, hesder...
35
Dec 28, 2011 at 05:47 PM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ Multiple voices at once aren't an issur arva to listen, since they are indistinguishable. ”
all Poskim agree that this concept of "two voices arent heard" is only when one of those voices is his own, but if he is listening to two women (who are not his wife, daughter etc.) singing it is 100% prohibited. (See Mishna Berura Siman 560:13 where he writes, based on the Talmud Sotah 48a and Rashi there dibur hamaschil K'Aish B'NeOres, that a man hearing one or more women singing is like a burning fire (i.e. Yetzer hara), which he must run away from). (from halachafortoday.com)
36
Dec 28, 2011 at 06:53 PM proud jew Says:Report as Inappropriate
“ And who edactly should put on a uniform, strap on a gun, leave their families and put their lives on the line? Only the "non frum"?
I don't know where you live but if in Eretz Yisroel, you should be expelled. And you wonder why the non religious dislike us?
Shame on you. You should be hugging and thanking every soldier for risking their lives very day.
As a frum Jew, I am disgusted and embarrassed. ”
As a proud Satmar Talmida...Every word the Satmar Rebbe wrote (and the Pre War tzadikim in Europe)in his sefer is coming true before our eyes....he had predicted that the State of Israel will bring more pain than gain...oiy ...how right he was...oiy this gulos...may we see the end of it soon...
37
Dec 29, 2011 at 12:20 AM Anonymous Says:Report as Inappropriate
The point is YOU may lose YOUR voice. That's what happens when you curse, it works like a boomorang, right back at you.
38
Dec 29, 2011 at 04:20 AM HaNavon Says:Report as Inappropriate
#35,
So good, let the men sing along!
But you are wrong about the din. If it were like your saying, why does it even discuss multiple women singing?!
There's a shtell tzu to the din in kol shofar...
Also, as a hashkafic addendum, the Mishnah Brurah was not the posek basra, he had ha'aros in halachah. For the real din, look in the Orach Chaim and it's brought in Even Ha'ezer....
Again, nothing else is binding. If you want to poskin, look at the Mchaber, Rema, nosei keilim and the Tur, Beis Yosef, Bach, Prisha, Drisha, Darchei Moshe, Rambam, Cesef Mishnah etc.
That's the derech for rabbunis that I got from my rebbe and chevrusa.
39
Dec 29, 2011 at 07:46 AM Secular Says:Report as Inappropriate
Question to all:
If the girls pictured, were dancing in circles on Tu' BeAv would anyone have a problem with that ?
Taanis 31a
Just a thought