New York – An Open Letter to Yossi Sarid by Rabbi Yair Hoffman

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    Dear Yossi Sarid,

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    The horror that the overwhelming majority of Chareidi Jews are feeling at the actions of the extremists is certainly deep. The sickening demonstration of “cousins” of ours in holocaust garb is just another illustration of how out of touch these Meah Shearim extremists are with true Torah sensibilities. The Beit Shemesh extremists, whose horrifying attitudes and behaviors lie in stark contrast to all that the Torah way of life holds dear, have also caused much hurt. The Chareidi world realizes that their actions should have been stopped long ago.

    Our silence is partially the cause of how their actions have gone so out-of-control.

    There is no question that the results of their actions are indeed, quite distressing. But there are other repercussions too. One particularly sad repercussion is the tragically noxious and toxic fumes of your pen, Mr. Sarid.

    In your 12/30/11 “op-ed” in Haaretz, you write (sic), “what is happening in Beit Shemesh and its satellites..is mandated by halakha.”

    Mandated by halacha? Spitting upon young girls and throwing rocks is mandated by halacha? This is just wrong and completely untrue. Spitting upon people and throwing rocks is never mandated by halacha.

    My dear Yossi Sarid, with these unbecoming lies and fabrications, how are you any different than the greatest of the anti-Semitic writers and orators that history has had to offer?

    Your article reads straight out Martin Luther’s anti-Semitic rants, or of the transcripts of the Beilis trial – specifically, the false testimony of Father Justinas Pranaitas, author of “The Talmud Unmasked” or of the false testimonies of the Jewish apostate Pfefferkorn when facing the gentile scholar Johann Reuchlin.

    Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I assume you have unknowingly falsified quotations and not purposefully taken them out of context.

    The Talmud (Niddah 45b) tells us that women possess Bina Yesaira – more so than a man. Bina Yesaira means greater understanding. “Bina” is a word that lies beyond the word “Chochma.” Far beyond. Yet according to Yossi Sarid, the Talmud states the opposite – “The mind of woman is not suited to be taught, but only to words of nonsense.” Or “Torah should be burned rather than given to a woman.” But if one looks at the passage (Yuma 66b) and reads it carefully, it was a one line response of an individual. This phrase cannot mean what you have it mean – the Talmud itself, two lines earlier describes the woman who posed the question as a wise woman! And, according to all counts, it was a highly intelligent question that she posed – why did each of the violators of the sin of the golden calf have different punishments? What then is the meaning and context? The Talmud is pointing out that he did not have an answer and thus responded in this fashion. Thus, instead of reflecting the Talmud’s alleged negativity about women – this passage conveys the exact opposite meaning!

    Yossi, Yossi, Yossi, you have misconstrued and misinterpreted hopefully not for some bizarre Machiavellian end. The sages of the Talmud accorded the highest respect and honor to women. You must know this to be true.

    Let’s start with Kesuvos 2b. A maiden marries on a Wednesday. Why? So that her husband will toil steadily in the wedding preparations for three entire days. At the very onset of a wedding the sages were concerned for the honor of womanhood. So that men would not look at them cheaply and objectify them. Compare that to your precious secular societal ideals – where Israel, unfortunately, is only a Tier 2 country in complying with the UN’s attempts to eradicate sexual trafficking. Had you and other members of the Knesset imbibed the Talmud’s high ideals of respect for womanhood – we might have been a Tier 1 country.

    Your tone and comments, I am sad to say, seem to have you relish in objectifying women. The sages (Nedarim 20a) advise against excessive flirtation with women because it can lead to inappropriate behavior. Yet you take the sages to task for expressing this thought! The sages tell us (Brachos 24a) not to even objectify a women’s pinky – yet you denounce this passage as well as hateful of women. No, sir. The Talmud is scornful of the objectification of women, but not of women itself, heaven forbid. With your criticism of this passage, on the other hand, you have opened the floodgates of pornography and its detrimental societal repercussions.

    The Gemorah in Yevamos 62b discusses our obligation in treating women – that we should extend to them more honor than our own bodies and selves. And we should treat them with the same affection and care that we have for ourselves. You make no mention of this, of course, because it entirely undermines the veracity of your thesis.

    Let’s move forward a page. Even you must admit that in the eyes of the sages there is nothing greater than Torah. Yet, the Talmud points out in Yevamos 63b – to what is this great Torah compared? To women. Of all the remarkable and precious items in the world, the Talmud points out that the Torah only saw fit to compare it to one thing – womanhood. The Talmud places womanhood in the highest esteem, Mr. Sarid.

    Let’s switch to a different order of the Talmud – Nezikin, that of torts. In Bava Metzia 59a it tells us that it is the women who are the source of blessing in a home and advises men to consult with their wives for advice.

    In Bava Basra 22a we learn about how merchants in a city may prevent travelling merchants from elsewhere to sell their wares in their city so as not to affect their income. Ezra, however, enacted that those merchants who sold jewelry are exempt from these regulations. They may sell their jewelry regardless of the economic damage to the local merchants.

    Why is this so? So that Jewish women may have access to jewelry. Ezra enacted that the needs of Jewish women are far more important than protecting business interests. Jews are not known for placing much above business interests. Yet the Talmud does so here, Mr. Sarid. By contrast, notwithstanding all the pro-women legislation in secular Israel – women in the managerial force are still 25% behind the rest of the world according to a YNET report (Aug 3/10). Secular society in Israel, it seems, places business interests above the general welfare of women.

    Furthermore, the halachic perspective of forbidden seclusion with women is to protect women. Precisely because of the Torah’s respect for the bodily rights of women did the Torah and Chazal promulgate these laws. The laws of Niddah, family purity, accomplish the same goals too, according to most authorities.

    Clearly, something is wrong here, Mr. Sarid. You have ignored all the beautiful sayings and lessons in the Talmud about womanhood and instead misconstrued and misrepresented other teachings.

    Is there perhaps some bias here? Some jaundiced eye that has caused you to employ something a bit more than “terminological inexactitudes?”

    Let us look at more of what you write, but quote the original of the piece. This will demonstrate how you take out of context.

    The Talmud in Shabbos 152a makes a sociological observation about the desire filled yearnings of men. Women, from the perspective of one un-attracted by desires of the flesh explains the Talmud, “are a leather jug full of excretions and filled with [menstrual] blood. Yet all run after her. It is an observation concerning the strength of attraction.

    Yet you, Yossi Sarid, write: “We will direct your attention to Tractate Shabbat, which does a good job of summing up halakha’s attitude toward women: “a sack full of excrement” with a bleeding hole.”

    Halacha? This was a sociological observation from the perspective of someone with no attraction. Yet you misconstrue it to reflect the worst ideas possible. And you place this falsely under the rubric of halacha – knowing full well that most of your readership will be unable to ferret out your mistake.

    You single out the Talmud for the institution of male kings and not female kings – yet much of European history reflected the same notion. But what about Devorah the prophetess found in the book of Shoftim? She both issued rulings and was treated like a Queen. The Ramban (Tractate Shavuos 30a) explains that the exposition about a king and not a Queen referred only to autocratic dictatorship – but one may voluntarily listen to them. Don’t forget that a monarchy is not the ideal in Judaism – but a concession to the realities of the time.

    We could go through them all, but perhaps another Talmudic statement is more applicable. There is another statement in the Talmud Kiddushin 70b. Perhaps you are familiar with it. Forgive me, but the passage states, “Kol HaPosel bemumo who posel – Whomsoever finds fault in others – finds fault in his own flaws.”

    Was it not just a few years ago when you embarrassed the Jewish world with what many read to be a misogynistic statement, “Only in Israel, there are those who are excited and fascinated by president Bush and his “Condoleezza” entourage.”

    Your statement (hopefully it wasn’t racist as well) embarrassed the Jewish community, both in America and in Israel. You never apologized. Neither to the Jewish community nor to Condi.

    There is another repercussion, of course, that we should speak about. I refer to the repercussions of your pen, your falsifications, and “out-of-context” quotes of the Talmud. You’ve, perhaps inadvertently, set us back a lot.

    How so? All the accomplishments of eliminating anti-Semitism are flushed away in your vitriol. Vatican Council II, the 1994 Vatican recognition of Israel, the apology of the Lutheran Church for Martin Luther’s anti-Semitic rants, all no longer necessary.

    Why not?

    Because a former Knesset member, Yossi Sarid, writes no differently than an entire cadre of world class anti-Semites.

    Mr. Sarid, I think you have been deprived of something. Something very precious and dear. Your birthright.

    I invite you to really study the Talmud in the atmosphere of a Yeshiva for two or three months. Join the Ohr Somayach program where you will see the beauties of the Talmud and the remarkable relationships that Kollel men have with their wives. Get yourself invited to the warmth of a Shabbos table where you can see the honor and respect that the Torah demands. Then and only then will you see your real birthright – the birthright of Sinai.

    Sincerely,

    (Rabbi) Yair Hoffman

    Rabbi Hoffman can be reached via email at [email protected]


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    50 Comments
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    12 years ago

    Yair Hoffman, why would you waste your valuable time to write about one the great vile anti Torah individuals of our time? He will be tried shortly for treason by the sanhedrin iy”h.

    The-Macher
    The-Macher
    12 years ago

    Yossi Sarid’s father, Yaakov Sarid of less than blessed memory, was personally responsible for the cutting of peyos in the maabarot in the 1950s. Enough said.

    me-myself-my-shadow-and-I
    me-myself-my-shadow-and-I
    12 years ago

    Very well written, but did you actually forward a copy to Mr. Sarid?

    Maamin
    Maamin
    12 years ago

    Rabbi Yair I aplaude you on behalf of Jewish people everywhere for pointing out the obvious.

    I am really against all that happened in beit shemesh and meah shearim but by all accounts the chareidy community in Israel (about a million people) don’t agree with them and denounced the 50-100 lowlifes, yet the secular media took no note of that and have no problem ranting and raving against the entire chareidy community, its time for the community to stand up to their rights and denounce the media for their actions.

    Rabbi Yair Hoffman
    Admin
    12 years ago

    Yasher Koach VIN, for this much necessary letter!

    rebchuna
    rebchuna
    12 years ago

    amazing! thank u rabbi hoffman for this

    The_Beadle
    The_Beadle
    12 years ago

    Of course, Rabbi Hoffman is correct, which makes it even more disgusting the way some Chareidim are behaving and the complete silence by the Chareidi leaders.

    Rabbi Yair Hoffman
    Admin
    12 years ago

    Yasher Koach – fantastic article! Very articulate.

    Member
    12 years ago

    What is wrong with Jewish life today? This group of ultra chassids; do they interrelate with Israel or just their own it seems? Where do these ways come [from]? I can not think that Israel of Moses and Torah could behave with the indignity and the reluctance to integrate as much as this group of jewish zealots conducts itself today. I am new to the Torah scene and I can not imagine that anyone would go to Torah by the looks of this type of community situation. It was the truth of Orthodox Jewish Torah life that inspired me. Where do these vagrants come in and become part of our Nation.

    DRSLZ
    DRSLZ
    12 years ago

    While Rabbi Hoffman writes eloquently, here, our community is losing the battle outside, in the worldwide media. We need to heed Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz’s advice, i.e. to write letters to major media sources (NY Times, Jewish Week, Associated Press, etc.) denouncing these vile individuals. Furthermore, we need to press our leaders to come out, publicly and emphatically, against such extremism.

    rebchuna
    rebchuna
    12 years ago

    interesting how sarid has already sent ppl to comment here 😉

    Reb Yid
    Reb Yid
    12 years ago

    Wow. Not that it’s for me to say, but Rav Hoffman is certainly emerging as a Jewish leader. He can write brilliantly on halacha and hashkafa.

    Shlomo2
    Shlomo2
    12 years ago

    In a world where haredi leaders condemn one thing or another on an almost weekly basis, yet have never issued condemnations of haredi intimidation and violence, perhaps Sarid could be forgiven for believing what he does.

    Add to that the home he grew up in, where his father was the sole survivor among his eleven siblings and parents.

    Hence, his changing his name to Sarid.

    One can only imagine how bitter it must have been in that home.

    Sarid is a tinok sh’neshba.
    What’s the excuse of those in EY who have still not spoken out?

    Averagejoe
    Averagejoe
    12 years ago

    As an average joe, I applaud rabbi Hoffman on his wonderful response to sarid’s venomous rant! I for one was at a complete loss as to how to respond to Sarid’s libel. Yasher koach

    YJay1
    YJay1
    12 years ago

    Thank you Rabbi Hoffman! I am really astounded by your proficiency and absolute grasp of the Talmud. Your article is very well written, and literally takes apart Mr. Sarid’s argument point by point. Now let’s see if Mr. Sarid will have the gall to (try to) respond to this – that would actually be very funny!

    Isn’t interesting to realize that all the people who use quotes of the Talmud out of context have never extensively studied it? They just copy and paste the same arguments that were used [and refuted!] already numerous times. Let’s challenge Mr. Sarid to learn just the first daf (Mr. Sarid: it means “folio”) of Tractate B’rochos all on his own, without Artscroll, then we’ll see his “mastery” of the Talmud.

    Erlich
    Erlich
    12 years ago

    Rav Hoffman: You evaded what Sarid wrote at the beginning. He said that according to Halacha, a woman can’t be a judge, can’t be in a position of authority and can’t be a witness. If I, a Modern Orthodox Jew, explain these laws, dinim, to a secular Jew or a Gentile, they’ll laugh at me and declare how primitive my Yiddishkeit is. Please, Rav Hoffman, explain to me how — in the twenty-first century — if a thousand women witness a murder, they can’t be witnesses in a court, a Beis Din. Do we let the murderer escape justice???

    Rabbi Yair Hoffman
    Admin
    12 years ago

    I thought this was a fantastic reply and a good point that we should have stopped this rock-throwing activity long ago. I have cousins in meah shearim and most of my siblings stopped talking to them…

    haskail
    haskail
    12 years ago

    The response,is apologetic,in its nature.
    There are passages,in The Talmud,that does not conform to modern thinking,and the place of a woman.
    One can site the halakha,that women are not acceptable as witenesses,they don’t have the nemonos,by a d’eoiraisa,when there is a tircha,by certain halakha.
    There is prohibition,for women,to assume management,in Klal inyonim,in frum circles.
    The halakaha that to learn Torah with women,is like teaching her Tiflus,is also degrading,as well as the statement Noshim daton kalois.
    More to the point is,that women in frum circles,are held in respect,and deferrence.
    There is always room for improvment.

    sammmy
    sammmy
    12 years ago

    are we starting to wake up and realize that the main story here is incitement against all chareidim? finally!! maybe now us Americans will start seeing this story for what it is- a few isolated incidents of violence blown out of proportion to demonize all of US CHAREDIM. In fact this story started way before there was any violence with vitriolic media coverage of any story relating to frum yidden.

    Rabbi Yair Hoffman
    Admin
    12 years ago

    This response should be linked to in all Jewish newspapers – it is our responsibility.

    Rabbi Yair Hoffman
    Admin
    12 years ago

    Did anyone ever think of Rabbi Hoffman succeeding Rabbi Sachs for Chief Rabbi of England? It might be a good choice. From Vin to England!

    Halaivy
    Halaivy
    12 years ago

    Rabbi Hoffman!
    You should take a page from the ultra orthodox they don’t answer when criticized because answers don’t change minds with certain agendas.
    You won’t change Sarids mind even when you are right just like the charedim won’t change your mind when they are right

    bookman
    bookman
    12 years ago

    All of you commentators as well as Rabbi Y Hoffman have missed the point. This is not an attempt to belittle chareidim as much as an attempt to promote a leftist agenda and ultimately a leftist vote in Israel.

    See this excellent article written by Caroline Glick.

    http://www.carolineglick.com/

    ………”ALL OF this brings us to the issue at hand. Stories highlighting the deviant behaviors of marginal social forces tend to be simplistic and misleading, and to serve identifiable political forces. And so, with our national discourse suddenly dominated by stories describing the demise of Israeli democracy, women’s rights and the rule of law at the hands of modern Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Jews, we need to consider who benefits from the stories”……………………

    12 years ago

    The chumras are out of control. Some Yidden now don’t even have their own children of the opposite gender sit at the same shabbos table. DOS IS NISHT YIDDESHKEIT!

    Lawyer
    Lawyer
    12 years ago

    Ehrlich: The short answer is that the Torah treats women differently than men, but that does not mean that they are considered less than men. It is a fallacy of modern Western life that if two groups of people are treated differently, that must mean that one is worse than the other, rather than being merely different. (To a great extent, this is a legacy of how African Americans were once treated in America. Their treatment as different clearly was intended and designed to place them in a second class status. Unfortunately people generalize from that history to other differentiations, such as gender.)

    R. Moshe Meiselman deals with the differences at length in his book Jewish Women in Jewish Law. You should get a copy. To give an oversimplified, too short summary, the Torah assigned to women a more private role in the Jewish people’s mission as a holy nation. The halakhos reflect that.

    gladIswitched
    gladIswitched
    12 years ago

    I recently switched my home page from another frum media outlet to VIN. I lived in E”Y for 10 years and moved back to America a year ago. I miss E”Y and I want to be updated on whats going on there. However the previous media outlet that was providing me my news had no idea of the complexities of life in E”Y and spoke as true outsiders. Today, the first day that I switched I feel vindicated. The news articles are more aligned with what I am expecting from a frum media outlet and that letter to Yossi Sarid was really a work of art. Thank you VIN!

    12 years ago

    I am secular but outraged by Sarid’s lies about Talmud. Shabbat 152a doe NOT say “women are a sackful of excrement with a bleeding hole.”

    In criticising MEN (not women) and lecturing men to restrain their baser instincts, the tractate gives as an example of male failure to control impulses, “Even were a woman a pitcher of filth with blood (of disease) in her mouth, all men would still lustfully chase her.” The passage is clearly referring to one hypothetical evil woman and not to all women existing in any way.

    Sarid mis-quoted Talmud in a way typical of gentile anti-Semites.

    Erlich
    Erlich
    12 years ago

    Yasher Ko’ach to those who replied to my question at #22 . Still, in today’s Western societies it would be very difficult to argue for women’s nonexistent (discriminatory?) roles as witnesses, judges, figures of authority. Look at the U.S. Supreme Court where there are two Jewish judges: Elena Kagan and Ruth Ginsburg.

    dannykurtz
    dannykurtz
    12 years ago

    Here’s a response I sent to Ha’aretz

    I don’t think there is much point in responding to Yossi Sarid point by point as Rabbi Yair Hoffman (כבודו במקומו מונח) has done in http://www.vinnews.com/97948/eid/72028943. Sarid’s piece is super-ignorant at best, intellectually dishonest at middle, and downright malicious at worst. Anyone with an ounce of understanding of the Talmud knows you can find EVERYTHING there. You can find how great men/women/Jews/goyim/etc (take your pick) are, and you can also find how miserable each of the above are. Selecting gems out of context as Sarid has done (כמוצא שלל רב) proves absolutely nothing. Does he know that a woman also can’t walk between two men, pigs or dogs? Maybe our rabbis were anti-men?