New York City – Rubashkin Brooklyn Operation Under The Spotlight

    44

    FAMILY AFFAIR: A delivery truck waits outside the Agriprocessors warehouse in the Sunset Park area of Brooklyn.New York City – At the farthest end of the Brooklyn Wholesale Meat Market, just past Chow Trading Co. and Lancaster Quality Pork, an inconspicuous black-and-white sign marks the presence of a very conspicuous tenant.

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    The building houses the local warehouse for Agriprocessors, the largest kosher meat producer in the country. Agriprocessors is best known for its slaughterhouse in Postville, Iowa, which was raided in May in what authorities have called the largest single immigration raid ever. The raid has been followed by intense scrutiny of the way Agriprocessors treated the nearly 400 undocumented immigrants who were arrested.

    But Agriprocessors’ legal collision with immigrants began long before the raid, here in Brooklyn, where dozens of workers move palettes of meat between refrigerated rooms and trucks that take the beef and poultry to stores and restaurants around New York. The company has been locked in legal battles for the past three years over its immigrant workers, who wanted to unionize the warehouse because of what they described as mistreatment.

    “We were treated like garbage,” Joel Garcia, a former truck driver at the Brooklyn warehouse, told the Forward. “We were doing a lot of work for not a lot of money. And if we said anything, we got fired immediately.”

    The company declined to comment on specific conditions at the warehouse.

    Workers at the warehouse eventually voted in September 2005 to join the United Food and Commercial Workers union, which has also been involved in a scrappy battle to represent the workers at Agriprocessors’ Iowa slaughterhouse. After the election in Brooklyn, the company came back with an unusual argument. Lawyers for Agriprocessors said that the company had determined that 17 of the 21 workers who had voted were undocumented immigrants. Their status had not been brought up before, but after the union vote the company said that the immigrants were not eligible for employment, much less union membership. The workers went on strike and were soon replaced.

    Since then, three rounds of judges have ruled that Agriprocessors must recognize the union, pointing to a 1984 U.S. Supreme Court decision that granted undocumented immigrants protection under the National Labor Relations Act. The company has appealed these decisions, and at the end of June, lawyers for Agriprocessors petitioned the U.S. Supreme Court to hear the case. The company’s petition argues that “if the votes of illegal workers are counted in union elections, unions may have an incentive to encourage illegal aliens to conceal their undocumented status.”

    Experts in labor law say that the Agriprocessors case is not likely to be heard by the Supreme Court, due to the 1984 ruling, but the case has already succeeded in maintaining the status quo at the Brooklyn warehouse for three years.

    “Every day that goes by is one day less that they have to negotiate” for a contract, said Alvin Blyer, regional director of the National Labor Relations Board, a federal agency that has overseen the Agriprocessors case. “This delay is certainly very financially beneficial.”

    Beyond the legal issues, the situation in Brooklyn opens a window onto the way Agriprocessors has treated workers outside its flagship Iowa slaughterhouse, and suggests that the complaints about working conditions that have arisen in Iowa were not isolated.

    The situation at the Brooklyn plant also answers questions that have gone unanswered in Iowa. Most notably, it is unclear if the company knowingly employed undocumented workers, such as those who were arrested during the raid in Iowa. The company has pleaded ignorance. But the Brooklyn case suggests that long before the raid in Iowa, the company knew it had undocumented workers in its ranks and knew how to find them — when it was to the company’s benefit. Immigrant advocates say that the Brooklyn plant paints a clear picture of what this has meant for immigrant workers.

    “You are employing and taking advantage of the workers’ vulnerable status, and then when they try to assert their rights, then you use that immigration status that allowed you to exploit them to prevent them from using the courts and fighting for their rights,” said Nora Preciado, an attorney at the National Immigration Law Center.

    The brown-brick meat market in Brooklyn also houses two other kosher meat distributors, Eastern Meats and International Glatt Kosher Meats. Both of these companies have a unionized work force that has health care benefits, paid sick time and a starting salary above the minimum wage.

    “Every job has its downside,” said Dave Young, regional organizing director for United Food and Commercial Workers. “But for the most part, International is a decent place to work. The workers have been there for years. It doesn’t have to be like it is at Agri.”

    The Brooklyn warehouse was opened in the 1990s by the Rubashkin family, which owns Agriprocessors. The warehouse, according to people who have been inside it, is divided between freezer rooms and refrigerated rooms containing the many brands of Agriprocessors meat, which include Rubashkin’s, Aaron’s Best and Iowa Best Beef. The UFCW collected information indicating that between 30 and 40 people work at the site, most of them either truck drivers or meat packers. Overseeing the operation from an office on the warehouse’s second floor is Joseph Rubashkin, a son of the octogenarian butcher who started Agriprocessors, Aaron Rubashkin.

    A reporter visiting the plant recently was directed to speak with Shalom Minkowitz, who was described as the warehouse manager. In a telephone conversation, Minkowitz said he would not speak about the situation at the plant. “I think that our attorney can answer any questions,” Minkowitz said.

    Nathan Lewin, who is representing Agriprocessors before the Supreme Court, said: “The Supreme Court petition speaks for itself. As to anything else, you’ll have to rely on the record in the case.”

    Outside the warehouse, at around 8:30 on a recent morning, three men who spoke Spanish sat near the main door. They said they worked for Agriprocessors, but they declined to answer questions about the company. Another man, who identified himself as a truck driver, declined to give his name and offered an explanation for the silence: “Nobody wants to lose their job, and if they talk about it they are definitely going to lose their job.”

    A clearer picture of life inside the plant arises from conversations with people who know the company and from documents surrounding the court case. The basic grievances were summed up in a flier handed out during the strike.

    “We cannot work any longer for 55 hours a week at straight time, with no benefits, and abusive treatment by our boss,” the flier said.

    Pay stub information compiled by the union suggest that in late 2005, workers were being paid $6.50 or $7 an hour with no benefits. At the time, the minimum wage in New York State was $6 an hour. It is now $7.15.

    Organizers for the UFCW, showed up in 2005 and began talking to the workers. Employees from that time told the Forward that managers quickly tried to stop them from interacting with the union representatives.

    “I heard that whoever would sign the papers would get fired; that’s when I moved to get another job,” Garcia said.

    During the UFCW’s fight to unionize the Iowa plant, the slaughterhouse manager, Sholom Rubashkin, sent a memo to workers, discouraging them from speaking with the union.

    “If a union organizer keeps bothering you, JUST SAY NO!” said one memo, dated October 6, 2005.

    In Iowa, the workers never reached a vote, but in Brooklyn the staff held an election in the warehouse locker room the morning of September 23, 2005. Fifteen employees went for the union, five went against it and one vote was contested.

    The company had a number of different responses to the vote. In the week immediately after the election, workers reported that they were pressured to sign cards for another union — one that has a reputation in New York circles for being brought in by management to organize workers in a way that is beneficial to management. During the strike, fliers from the workers complained about this tactic: “The owner is mad that the workers have chosen to be represented by a REAL union, instead of the fake union the owner picked out and believes he can control.”

    The NLRB struck down this other union, but complaints continued. A few weeks after the election, the union filed a complaint that the company had fired the employee who had been the union’s election observer.

    When the company declined to open negotiations for a contract, the workers decided to go on strike at the end of October. Each day, for almost three months, close to a dozen workers marched in the parking lot behind the meat market. An affidavit submitted by a meat packer to the NLRB explained the willingness to strike.

    “I decided to go on strike because I wanted a contract with more time for lunch, overtime pay and proper clothing for working in the freezer,” said the affidavit from the meat packer, an undocumented worker.

    It was in the middle of the strike that the company first made its legal objection to the immigration status of its workers. According to the company’s Supreme Court petition, Agriprocessors had run the Social Security numbers of all the employees through a government Web site and “discovered that of the 21 workers who voted in the election, the Social Security numbers of only four matched Social Security records with the same name.”

    At a hearing before an NLRB judge, Agriprocessors lawyer Richard Howard said that due to federal laws that bar an employer from hiring undocumented immigrants, “it just kind of makes sense logically that if you can’t work for this employer, you shouldn’t be a member of the bargaining unit for this employer.”

    The lawyer for the union, Emily Desa, questioned the timing of Agriprocessors’ discovery.

    “Here, Respondent is grasping at anything to deny employees the right to representation,” Desa said in the hearing. “Respondent came up with this defense after it tried everything else and the Union was certified.”

    The U.S. Supreme Court has dealt with the rights of undocumented immigrants in two high-profile cases, known as Hoffman and Sure-Tan. In the 1984 Sure-Tan case, the court ruled that such immigrants “plainly come within the broad statutory definition of ‘employee,’” and thus are protected by the National Labor Relations Act.

    Citing this language, first an administrative judge, then the NLRB and, most recently, the United States Court of Appeals in Washington have all ruled against the company. The decision by the circuit court used derisive language.

    “Remarkably, Agri Processor’s brief neither acknowledges this controlling language in Sure-Tan nor even quotes the NLRA’s definition of ‘employee,’” said the decision, which came down in January of this year.

    One judge on the appeals court did dissent, siding with Agriprocessors, and the company’s lawyers have pointed to that dissent in asking the Supreme Court to overturn its previous ruling.

    “The Court should reconsider the central legal issue and interpret the National Labor Relations Act in light of today’s laws and today’s public policies,” the brief said.

    In Postville, since the May raid, the company has not gone through this legal wrangling. Instead, company spokesmen have simply said that the company did not know it was employing undocumented immigrants.

    This contention has come under fire from people who were involved with the workers at the Brooklyn plant. Young said that after the workers went on strike, he saw Agriprocessors picking up new employees at a nearby corner in Sunset Park where Hispanic day-laborers waited for work. In one case, after Agriprocessors had accused its employees of being undocumented immigrants, Young said he saw the company bring to work a relative of one of the undocumented immigrant strikers, whom the striker told him was also undocumented.

    “They knew that they had illegals and that was their chance,” Young told the Forward. “They could have cleaned up Postville, too, but they didn’t.”

    While the workers who voted in 2005 have been replaced, Young said that his union would represent any workers who are in place when the company begins to negotiate. On May 28, the NLRB wrote the company a letter noting that “the case remains open for all purposes as awaiting compliance.


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    44 Comments
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    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Loz shoin up!!!

    fleish
    fleish
    15 years ago

    the forwards agenda is so clear

    this is not newsworthy of such a long article at this point

    but as the paper dies they’ll do anything to dig up some archaic dirt

    Moshe
    Moshe
    15 years ago

    UNIONS SUCK !!!

    IF YOU THINK WERE PAYING ALOT FOR MEAT WAIT TILL THE UNIONIZE !!!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    I just hope they hang on and not give in to this terrorism. Unions have destroyed the economy.

    These workers are being paid more than minimum wage and are not made to work against their will.

    This (ubions)is a sickness and cancer that needs to be stopped. It is shameful that the Forward paints this the way they did.

    Rubashkin be like Mordechai “U’Mordechai LO YICHRE V’LO YISHTACHAVE” – Good luck & may Hashem be with you.

    yenta pesha
    yenta pesha
    15 years ago

    i we are quoting Megillas Ester, where are the haman tashen???

    Mikva
    Mikva
    15 years ago

    The Unions are not finished destroying JOBS left in the USA. Any job possible to move overseas has done so. Look at cars, chemicals, foods, ingredients, electronics, eyeglasses, clothes, and the list goes on and on and on and growing.

    Only McDonalds, Burger King, and the likes remain here in the US.

    UNIONS,,,,keep up your work, soon you’ll be able to move overseas too and start organizing there. NO WORKERS WILL BE LEFT IN THESE USA.

    Moishe
    Moishe
    15 years ago

    There are two seperate issues here.

    One is whether the Union is a good thing.

    The other is whether, union or not, a Torah-observing company has an obligation to treat other human beings like human beings.

    Hocker59
    Hocker59
    15 years ago

    pathetic

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    UNIONS ARE THE DEFENDERS OF THE POOR WORKERS.

    IN THE TORAH YOU CAN ALSO FIND MANY MITVOHS,SPECIFICALLY TO PROTECT THE WORKER.

    LOH SULIN,BEYOMO TITEN SCHOROI,LOH SACHSOM SHOR B’DISHOI,VKOTAFTO MELILOS BYODECH,LO SIRDEH BOI BFORECH.

    IN OUR MODERN WORLD WE ARE OBLIGED TO FULLY ABIDE BY THE RIGHTS THAT ARE MINHSG HAMEDINA.

    ANYTHING LESS,IS A VAST CHILUL HASHEM.AND A GOIREM TO THE INCREASE OF ANTI-SEMITISM.

    S
    S
    15 years ago

    first off anything the Unions stood for in there hay day has now become federal law. Minimium wage, overtime, etc. If an employee works more than 40 hours in 1 week they are intitled to time in a half based on the federal wage and hour laws. Having said that my husband worked in the meat industry. Not in NY or Iowa. He was required to be part of the union – UFCW F&CWU. He paid weekly dues and got nothing for his money! The employer or the union did not supply his clothes for in or out of freezer work. Also when he got hurt on the job – cut off part of a finger on a ban saw – he had to drive himself to the hospital! Where was the union then? And when the employer started making cuts – he still got laid off with no severance pay – where was the union then? Unions Stink! they are a criminal organization that ruins jobs and causes increases in prices!

    Mikey
    Mikey
    15 years ago

    To Moishe

    Those workers that you say are not being treated like “human beings” are being paid more then minumum wage & are given time off to have lunch and nobody is forcing them to do this work. They want this job

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Mikey Says:

    To Moishe

    Those workers that you say are not being treated like “human beings” are being paid more then minumum wage & are given time off to have lunch and nobody is forcing them to do this work. They want this job

    08-15-2008 – 10:32 AM

    **************************************

    Workers are not morons or idiots. Your attitude treats them as such.

    If unions are not so bad, then why is International doing so good?

    badatz
    badatz
    15 years ago

    by the end of the day the workers will loose ther job.the co.will close .and who is going to suffer WE YES WE we will pay more .the union does not care the labor dept.does not care.

    but we the costumers will have to pat DOUBLE THE PRICE.so evry house hold -yeshiva -chasuna-simchwill cost double.

    BADATZ

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Let the workers decide for themselves if they want to unionize.

    emes vatzedek
    emes vatzedek
    15 years ago

    WE GOTA FORM A UNION, AGAINST ALL UNIONS

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    7.00 an hour is not so bad. They are simple laborers, unqualified to do anything else. No one is forcing them to take this job. Unions are backed by the mafia, no business wants to start with them.

    JBC
    JBC
    15 years ago

    It is interesting to note that the other meat companies are not having these issues. In fact the article quoted the union as saying that International “…was not a bad place to work.”

    For those of u who think that unions are going to hurt this economy, think about this. If people because of their lack of skills or out of circumstances, cannot make a livable wage, the economy will suffer just as much. It’s called consumer spending. If I can’t afford, I can’t spend. If enough people can’t spend what will drive this economy. That is what a union is about. To ensure that the federal labor laws enacted under the FLSA, (Fair Labor Standards Act) is adhered to. I do agree that there has been corruption in union leadership. No system is perfect. That doesn’t absolve anybody of their obligation to treat people properly and fairly.

    For those of u that are worried about the price of kosher meat going up, that may be more rabbinical racketeering that union racketeering.

    anonymous
    anonymous
    15 years ago

    why doesn’t the Forward look at the recent history of the “United Food and Commercial Workers union”. then you will understand why they aren’t good for the worker’s or the employer’s there is a hole bunch of government investigations and a few of there big shots like Joseph DiFlumera are now siting behind bars and they are putting libels out there about company’s like Walmart Smithfield Foods

    and if you don’t remember there false ad implying that KAJ made there decisions based upon worker issues

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    I am tired of people being bad mouthed in cases where they do not break the law. Yes, it is hard to support a family on minimum wages but that is a legal wage. Those that do not like to earn minimum wage should study in school, marry rich or win a lottery. To throw shmutz while admitting that the pay was above minimum wage is not fair. PS: I am in business and pay a fair wage because for less money I might get less capable workers, less able to wake up in the AM, but that is a choice.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    a) Rubashkin pays less for his workers.

    b) Rubashkin gives a lot of tzadaka.

    Therefore:

    c) Rubashkin takes from the workers pay and gives Tzedaka from it.

    Anyone think there is something wrong from this equation?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    JBC,

    Did you take micro and macro economics ? your summarization is way off track.

    Workers like these rarely would have extra to spend, most is spent in fast food places, wallmart etc..

    When wages get pushed up, the prices of consumer goods increases.. in fact hurting the very ones whom you claim to be standing for.

    This is a result of illegal immigration, these jobs need to be set at a low cost!

    If we were to start raising wages on manual unskilled labor it would kill the economy.

    The solution is that people must save up, no matter how little you make you must put aside money in savings drawing interest.

    Cosumer spending is good, but its a death blow for the poor class.. let the rich and middle class spend.

    yankel
    yankel
    15 years ago

    I don’t know how many people are aware of the amount of factories and other industrial businesses that the union succeded to close down and the owners lost everything. Hopefully Rubashkin will have Siyato Dishmayo and win their battle with the cursed unions.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    The unions are nothing more than Mafia that shake down any large businesses they can.

    Ever check what these Union Bosses make per year

    from the poor workers that are FORCED to contribute from their meager wages getting very little if anything in return.

    They have destroyed Industry in this country – look at the American Car companies that have been

    strangled and are about to go under.

    They are a CANCER & a PLAGUE.

    And here we have the enemies of Rubashkin siding with these devil gangsters – anything to disparage Rubashkin. It’s really sad to see.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Popper from the Foward has a long history of seeking any bit of negativity on a frum company or business.

    For those of you who are interested< look back through the fowards archives, ( i have) and you will not find a SINGLE poritive article about anything close to frum people or organization. Mr Popper: get a life and start looking for garbage in your own backyard. Your rag, (the forward) has been losing readership for decades while orthodox papers have been flourishing.
    You lose!

    Babishka
    Member
    Babishka
    15 years ago

    How about a HECKSHER TZEDEK for blogs and news media? I would like to see rabbonim certifying news sources that do not say lashon hara, avak lashon hara, rechilus, malshinus, mesirus, motzee shem ra. Oops, that would be all of them!

    anonymous
    anonymous
    15 years ago

    And here we have the enemies of Rubashkin siding with these devil gangsters – anything to disparage Rubashkin. It’s really sad to see.

    08-15-2008 – 3:37 PM

    *************************************

    If Rubashkin paid them a decent salary with benefits, there would be no need for the union at all. Just look across the yard from Rubashkin – International Glatt seems the thrive AND they have union members.

    Here is a radical thought. Hire Frum people and pay them a salary to live on. You will increase productivity, decrease theft from the warehouse, not have anyone shikkur. You will get honest workers without a union. What hasn’t Rubashkin done it?

    JBC
    JBC
    15 years ago

    It’s funny to see people bashing unions w/o any knowledge of history. Think about what the workplace was like in the early part of the 20th century, and the rights that an employee, (union or not) enjoy today. U can all thank those “cursed unions that are destroying the economy” for their efforts in lobbying the gov’t for current labor laws that are on the books today protecting u the employee, (again – union or not).

    To the poster who asked me about micro or macroe-economics, paying people livable and fair wages does not kill the economy. There are plenty of successful unionized companies out there. The fact that they spend on fast food or walmart makes no difference. They are spending.

    But all this is beside the point. Exploiting people for a profit is wrong both legally, moraly, (and I would imagine halachically as well – at the very least the chillul hashem).

    People, it is not like we are talking about the most honest people here. The family has a history of breaking the law. Here are just a few examples:

    1)One of Aaron’s sons, the influential Brooklyn rabbi Moshe Rubashkin, pleaded guilty to bank fraud in 2002 after writing $325,000 in bad checks related to a family textile business. He was sentenced to 15 months in prison.

    2) A son-in-law, Menachim Balkany, a political fundraiser who hobnobbed with mayors and congressmen, was charged in 2003 with misusing a $700,000 federal grant. The prosecution was dropped when he agreed to make restitution.

    3) Moshe Rubashkin pleaded guilty this year to storing hazardous waste without a permit at a defunct, family-owned textile plant in Allentown, Pa. His son pleaded guilty to lying to federal agents during the investigation. They have yet to be sentenced.

    U can play the anti-semetic race card all u want, but why isn’t anybody bothering the other kosher meat companies?

    a klein
    a klein
    15 years ago

    I have been shopping at Rubashkin about 25 years and I see most employees work for many years. Apparently conditions are not that bad.

    anonymous
    anonymous
    15 years ago

    a klein Says:

    I have been shopping at Rubashkin about 25 years and I see most employees work for many years. Apparently conditions are not that bad.

    ***************************************

    What does that have to do with the article? The article talked about the distribution point in the brooklyn meat market. You talk about a retail store in Boro Park.

    Go to 5600 First Avenue and look at the place there. Then come back and tell up what you think

    Mark Levin
    Mark Levin
    15 years ago

    Can everyone here please wake up and get a life???

    By now it should be clear and obvious that Nathan Pooper The Rosha M’Rusha Chotay U’machtay and the Backward have an agenda and that is to destroy destroy sh’chita and kosher altogether.

    We need to ALL stop reading Pooper’s Paper and it is time to have him in der erd where he belongs uber shnel!

    Pooper, may the Good L-rd take a liking to you SHNEL!

    Milhouse
    Milhouse
    15 years ago

    If the workers are so unhappy with the pay and conditions at Rubashkin’s, they were free to go find a better job, maybe at International or wherever they claimed it was so good. They chose to work at Rubashkin’s, for the wages and conditions that were on offer, what’s wrong with that? Why SHOULD Rubashkin pay more, if they can find people willing to work for less?

    And if the people who voted for the union are no longer working there, then why should the union have any rights there? The current workers never voted for it.

    All this shows is that when it suited Rubashkin they hired an investigator and found out who were the illegals. Sure, they probably could have done the same in Iowa, but why should they? It’s not their business to investigate their workers. If someone gives a document that says he has the right to work, why should the employer spend a penny or lift a finger to investigate whether it might possibly be a forgery? Stam so he can fire good workers? Is he supposed to break into their houses too, to find out if maybe they’ve got illegal drugs or are committing other crimes? Only if it becomes in his interest to find it out, will he go to the effort and expense of finding out.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    The Rubashkins shouldn’t give in to these terrorists. There was a time when unions were necessary. What surprise is it that aside from the teachers union, every other union has rapidly declining membership?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Milhouse Says:

    If the workers are so unhappy with the pay and conditions at Rubashkin’s, they were free to go find a better job, maybe at International or wherever they claimed it was so good. They chose to work at Rubashkin’s, for the wages and conditions that were on offer, what’s wrong with that? Why SHOULD Rubashkin pay more, if they can find people willing to work for less?

    *******************************************

    Too bad thet the current sentiemnt is to blame the goyish worker for being too stupid and having rachmanus on the Rubashkins for being a pawn.

    Unfortunately, this is still America and not a shtetl in Hungary. The law is very clear. A person, once hired, can join a union and get higher wages. If you don’t like it, then tell your congressman to change the law.

    There are plenty of companies that do not have unions. They generally treat their employees well, provide benefits (in some cases) and care about their workers. No such claim can be made in the Brooklyn case, however.

    There is still a shtetl mentality that exists. It says that you treat the uneducated goy like dirt. As long as that mentality exists, you will have chillul Hashem taking place, and the yid that does it has no idea that he is doing something wrong. And there will always be the groups of bloggers that will agree with that perverse logic.

    bozo
    bozo
    15 years ago

    to jbc

    FYI

    aaron rubashkins son-in-law milton balkany …. his yiddishe nomen is yehoshua. not menachim.. and you are a bozo

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    To Milhouse –

    I see you complaining about the NLRB laws. You say that if the workers do not like it, they should leave.

    FYI – If you do not like the laws of the United States, New York State, or New York City, YOU should leave.

    Try to find a place that will tolerate you. Eretz Yisroel is out. They have unions that will close up the country in a flash, Ditto for every democratic country in the world.

    How about communist countries. You would have a problem with religion, otherwise you might fit in.

    No, wait, the Rubashkin family left Russia because of that.

    Third world countries, like South America and Africa? You would like that. No air conitioning, and you probably would have problems with diseases (no good healthcare). But, there are the labor unions to contend with.

    Last is Antartica and the North Pole. NO UNIONS. A little cold, but your attutude matches it perfectly. Problem – 24 hour daylight in the summer and 24 hous darkness in the winter. Also – No Kosher food readily available. No problem, you should have plenty of company, judging from the amout of bleggers who agree with you.

    Matzahlocal101
    Matzahlocal101
    15 years ago

    Anon 10:10 and JBC,

    The sheer magnitude of the ignorance that you spout is staggering. Every frum boss in America is oiver biyomo titain s’choro if they write their employees a weekly pay check? Sorry but the answer is no. If you go into employment and agree to be paid weekly there is no issur in getting a weekly pay check.

    ” UNIONS ARE THE DEFENDERS OF THE POOR WORKERS.”

    The poor workers that are too stupid to think for them selves? Let me tell you a story. Once upon a time there were two airlines. One was named Pan Am, the oldest airlinr in the western hemisphere and the other was called Eastern which employed 40,000 people, 22,000 of them in Miami. A man named Frank Lorenzo who happened to own continental airlines bought Eastern. Because Frank “only” wanted to pay mechanics $27 an hour (and “only” $22 to start) and he “Only” wanted to pay pilots 100K per annum for a 40 hour week.(with health, dental, 401 K, etc.) The good people at the United aerospace and airlines workers union decided to teach the evil Frank Lorenzo a lesson. They went on strike to force the evil man who was signing their pay checks to pay “fair” wages. Bottom line, the unions forced eastern into bankruptcy and liquidation and put 40,000 people out of work. Pan Am, striking in sympathy put another 30-40,000people out of work. BTW, Frank Lorenzo still has a job.

    In the teens and the twenties the unions may have had a purpose.Today with OSHA, the feds, state labor enforcement, the unions are useless. The only thing they do is foment discontent between labor and management inorder to perpetuate themselves. There is no legal or halachic “right” to force a union on a business owner. You want a union? Go work someplace else where there’s a union.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Matzahlocal101 Says:

    …………..

    There is no legal or halachic “right” to force a union on a business owner. You want a union? Go work someplace else where there’s a union.

    08-18-2008 – 12:57 AM

    **************************************

    If the workers take a vote to unionize, my friend, the NLRB says you unionize. That is the law.

    The owners have rights, also. They might offer a contract that is below what the workers want, they might close up the business, they might lock out the striking workers. But they must recognize that the union is the bargaining unit.

    Bottom line – treat unions carefully. They know the law better than you do and trying to be a smart-alec will get you into even more trouble. Look at the Rubashkins if you want a good example. They thought the problem will go away if they ignore it, then if they pay for a lawyer. It didn’t and they are in worse trouble than before.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Matzahlocal101 Says:

    Anon 10:10 and JBC,

    The sheer magnitude of the ignorance that you spout is staggering.

    When you say wonderful things like that, we know where you are coming from. I hope that you speak for yourself, not anyone with sechel.

    JBC
    JBC
    15 years ago

    To Matzahlocal101:

    If u want engage in a debate, that is fine. This can be done respectfully and with logical arguments. Don’t lower yourself to childish namecalling.

    Now in addressing your argument:

    I would suggest that u go to these links below and u will see that it was more than just a union issue that led to Easterns demise.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_Deregulation_Act

    http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Commercial_Aviation/EasternAirlines/Tran13.htm

    http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Dictionary/lorenzo/DI131.htm

    Apparently Lorenzo himself was no saint either. But u missed my point. I never said that unions were perfect. No system ever is. I would also agree that there have been corruption issues with unions as well. However, before we start making blanket statements about any issue and just following blindly, try to learn the facts and history surrounding the issue. Not to do so would be, as u said, “..sheer magnitude of ignorance.”

    You said,”Today with OSHA, the feds, state labor enforcement, the unions are useless.” Firstly, who do u think helped put these laws in effect in the first place? Two, in many companies it is the union that sees to it that these laws are adhered to because all to often they are not, which is why we are on this topic in the first place.

    You said,”The only thing they do is foment discontent between labor and management inorder to perpetuate themselves.” In some cases. As I said, no system is perfect; however, I refer u to my second argument in the above paragraph.

    In you final statement you said,”There is no legal or halachic “right” to force a union on a business owner. You want a union? Go work someplace else where there’s a union.”

    The poster who said,”If the workers take a vote to unionize, my friend, the NLRB says you unionize. That is the law. etc..” that poster is correct.

    As I aksed in my previous post, why isn’t anybody bothering the other meat companies? Answer, they don’t have the problem. If u also read my other posts, (08-15-2008 – 6:38 PM), u will see that the Rubashkin family has a history of shady practices. Here is the link and read it for yourself.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080804/ap_on_re_us/kosher_slaughterhouse

    All I am saying, whether you are union, non, jewish, non, is that there is an obligation morally, legaly, and halachically to treat workers fairly. If the workers feel that the only way to accomplish this is through unionizing, then that is their legal right. People here seem to to think it is so eay to just leave one job and go to another as one poster challenged. Many people, be it lack of skill or other circumstances don’t have many options. The wheels of fortune turns round and round and the person in that circumstance could be any one of us some day. How would u like to be treated?

    Milhouse
    Milhouse
    15 years ago

    Stop hacking us with “it’s the law, so get used to it”. I DON’T CARE ABOUT THE LAW. You can take your law and your NLRB and shove them where they’ll do the most good. I’m talking about right and wrong. If I give someone a job, and they start working to undermine my business then I have the right to fire them. I do not have an obligation to let them set up a union in my business, and if the law says they do then so much the worse for the law; at any rate I’m certainly entitled to do EVERYTHING I CAN to stop them, and that’s what the Rubashkins are doing. So what’s the avla? Why are we supposed to be getting upset at them? They don’t want a union, so they’re fighting it; are they supposed not to fight? Are they supposed to just lie down and stretch out their necks, while there’s still a chance to save themselves?

    Is there ANYTHING in the article about them doing something wrong? No. Nothing the article claims they did is wrong, the Forward just doesn’t like it that they’re resisting the union. Because the Forward is still a socialist paper, and expects businesses to exist for the benefit of their workers. Well, they don’t. The only reason to run a business is to make money for the owner, and only an idiot deliberately submits to an attacker without fighting back. There’s nothing wrong with that morally, there’s nothing wrong with it halachically, and if the law says there’s something wrong with it then the law is an ass.

    Milhouse
    Milhouse
    15 years ago

    And no, I’m not going to move anywhere because I don’t like the law. I have as much right to be here as anyone else, and I have the right to resist unions here. The USA is not private property, from which I can be expelled; I have the right to live here for as long as I like. But my business is my property, and nobody has the RIGHT to work there; if I give you a job it’s by my choice, and I will set the terms and conditions of your employment; if you don’t like it, go somewhere else. If you can’t go anywhere else, because they won’t have you, and I’m your only choice, then I guess you’re stuck with whatever I want to pay you, and I don’t see why I should pay you a cent more than I have to. When you go shopping, would you pay more than you have to for an item, just out of rachmonus for the shopkeeper?

    JBC
    JBC
    15 years ago

    To Milhouse:

    you said..

    “… and I don’t see why I should pay you a cent more than I have to.”

    Because that is the highest form of giving tzedakah. You are keeping someones pride intact by making him feel that he is worth somthing. I am not saying that u have to pay him a CEO’s salary, but pay him something livable. The BIG CEO upstairs generally likes that and will treat u in kind.

    Now for those of u who will jump on my back and say well they are goyim, I have two words for u – Kiddush Hashem. They like that upstairs two and again will treat u in kind. Anybody remember the Aaron Feuerstein story?

    You said

    “When you go shopping, would you pay more than you have to for an item, just out of rachmonus for the shopkeeper?”

    Up to a point, yes. I truly believe what goes around comes around.

    I think I’ve made my points on this blog regarding this issue. To matzahlocal101 and those like u who can at least debate on the issue using either experience or research to support their arguments, I will respectfully agree to disagree with u. I will look foward to discussing other issues w/u as they come up. To all the others, I am sorry if I confused u with some facts.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Milhouse Says:

    Stop hacking us with “it’s the law, so get used to it”. I DON’T CARE ABOUT THE LAW. You can take your law and your NLRB and shove them where they’ll do the most good

    ****************************************

    To everyone else – now you know why Rubashkin lost the case and will lose in Iowa.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    Milhouse Says:

    And no, I’m not going to move anywhere because I don’t like the law. I have as much right to be here as anyone else, and I have the right to resist unions here. The USA is not private property, from which I can be expelled; I have the right to live here for as long as I like. But my business is my property, and nobody has the RIGHT to work there; if I give you a job it’s by my choice, and I will set the terms and conditions of your employment; if you don’t like it, go somewhere else. If you can’t go anywhere else, because they won’t have you, and I’m your only choice, then I guess you’re stuck with whatever I want to pay you,

    08-18-2008 – 9:20 PM

    *************************************

    There are laws that protect people from ‘busines’ owners like you. There are OSHA laws that protect the workplace. There are wage laws that have mnimun wages. There are laws that protect minors. You arethe reason why there are unions, and why workers have to be protected.

    Wait – i just got it. You were being sarcastic and you do pay your workers a decent wage. I did not realize that you did not mean what you said. You do obey the laws and therefore, your actions make a kiddush Hashem in the workplace.