Montreal – Frum Schools Balk at New Religious Culture Course

    44

    Students from Montreal Hebrew Academy listening to Chief Rabbi of the Beth Din of Montreal Rabbi Weiss speechMontreal – Some of Montreal’s traditional Orthodox and chassidic schools say much of the province’s new compulsory ethics and religious culture course (ERC) is “irreconcilable with our convictions.”

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    They are seeking to work with the Quebec education ministry to find a way to abide by the law, said Rabbi Yochanan Kuhnreich, principal of Beth Jacob School, which has about 500 female elementary and high school students, without going against their beliefs.

    “A large and important part of the course, which deals with ethics and values, was already being taught in our school,” he said. “But there are serious challenges posed by the other aspects that are not reconcilable with our convictions.”

    He declined to spell out what those aspects are, but the religious culture part of the course aims to give students an understanding of the religions considered to be part of Quebec’s heritage – Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism and aboriginal beliefs – as well as an overview of the other major world religions and secularism.

    The government’s goal is to promote tolerance and a sense of commonality, and schools have been given the task of teaching about religion while avoiding religious teaching.

    The course must be taken by all students in every school that receives government funding, throughout elementary and high school. The government has said no exceptions will be made. It replaces the moral and religious education course, which offered the choice of a Catholic, Protestant or neutral orientation.

    The ERC was passed into law three years ago, but has been in formulation for at least a decade, since the public school boards were reorganized along French and English, rather than Catholic and Protestant, lines.

    Traditional Orthodox schools, which include those affiliated with chassidic communities as well as those such as Beth Jacob, which are non-chassidic but strictly frum, have been reticent about the course until now.

    Rabbi Mendel Marasow, principal of Beth Rivkah Academy, which is under Lubavitch auspices, who has expressed doubts in the past about the possibility of the ERC being fully implemented in his school, referred questions last week to Rabbi Kuhnreich, who himself was guarded in his responses.

    Privately, chassidic leaders have indicated they would consider leaving Quebec if forced to teach religious material they consider inappropriate for their children.

    The position of the Association of Jewish Day Schools (AJDS) is that the course is law, and it’s basically leaving it up to its members to come to terms with it as best they can. The AJDS represents 15 school corporations, comprising 23 campuses, including the larger chassidic schools, such as those of the Skver and Belz communities.

    A number of chassidic schools are not affiliated with the AJDS, including a few that are already under the scrutiny of the education ministry for not teaching the existing required curriculum.

    “The course is compulsory. There is no choice,” said AJDS executive director Charley Levy. “The minister has made it clear there are no derogations.”

    On the other hand, he said, “It’s very obvious that for certain schools the ERC is against their confessional project.”

    Personally, he thinks there would have been little problem if the course had only dealt with ethics and intercultural dialogue, but instruction on other religions should have been left to the discretion of individual schools.

    Levy believes there is enough latitude in the course’s themes that they can be taught in Jewish schools without offending anyone.

    “The icons [reproductions of religious symbols] are not going to be acceptable in Orthodox schools, [nor is] visiting a church, for example,” he said. “But certain parts can be done, such as talking about birth celebrations in different religions. The schools will have to see what they can do and what they cannot. Those who can’t do it all will do part of it.”

    Although the curriculum is highly structured, with the education ministry issuing a voluminous manual setting content and objectives for each cycle through elementary and high school, there are no set texts.

    Levy believes that this inaugural year will be one of “experimentation” for all schools in the province, and that the ministry will allow considerable leeway. All schools, he said, are facing the challenge of finding teachers capable of teaching the course, which will occupy one period a week, and developing appropriate materials.

    The ministry has made available “learning and evaluation situations,” teaching modules from the ministry that can be tried out in the classrooms.

    Levy, a former executive director of the English Montreal School Board, called the ERC “sophisticated” and said it requires subtlety to teach. “You are going to have to leave your biases behind,” he said.

    The position of Canadian Jewish Congress (CJC) is that the ERC is a commendable development, and Quebec region president Victor Goldbloom, a pioneer in Christian-Jewish dialogue, has praised its ideals and the thought that has gone into developing its content and approach.

    CJC did, however, convey to the Bouchard-Taylor commission on reasonable accommodation last year the feeling of many in the Jewish community that the ERC would best be started in high school.

    Many parents, it noted, want their children well grounded in their own religion before being exposed to others.

    Solomon Schechter Academy has been one of a handful of schools in the province, and the only Jewish one, to quietly pilot the ERC over the last two years.

    “Our experience has been positive. The program has worked out fine. The curriculum is teachable without being offensive to Judaism,” principal Shimshon Hamerman said. “The intentions are good. There is enough flexibility in the course and the ministry has shown sensitivity. There’s a lot of goodwill there.”

    Hamerman said that the “overwhelming majority of parents” felt that it was an opportunity for their kids to learn about other cultures and to be aware of the world around them.

    No teacher was compelled to teach the course, and a few did decline, he added.

    Solomon Shechter, an elementary school, has historically been tied to the Conservative movement, but it has students from a wide range of backgrounds, and Hamerman himself is an ordained Orthodox rabbi with a PhD in theology from the Université de Montréal

    He said he has little patience for those who portray ERC as being incompatible with the mission of a Jewish school.

    “There are members of our community who would like to put a wall around us and say that everything outside is bad, and that that is the only way to teach Judaism,” he said. “Is there a Jewish child in North America who does not know that Dec. 25 is Christmas? Do we want our children to be misinformed from the outside, or informed by a Jewish teacher in an appropriate setting?”

    Another elementary Jewish school principal and ordained Orthodox rabbi, Zev Lanton of Hebrew Foundation School, said his school is “grappling” with how to teach ERC, but is not closing the door to it.

    “There are definitely elements that resonate with our curriculum – we’re already doing ethics and dialogue – and the big picture of trying to understand the other is a beautiful idea, but some aspects are problematic for us,” he said.

    Nevertheless, Rabbi Lanton can see the possibility of integrating some of the religious content. “When we study the Flood, we might look at the stories of great floods that are in the traditions of so many other cultures,” he said.

    “We are going to have to identify stories and symbols like that which are in common [with Judaism],” he said.

    “It’s all very premature. We’re just beginning to dip our toes in the water. We’re at ground zero.

    “We have been given broad guidelines and it will be up to each school to try to find a way they can approach this.”

    Like Hamerman, Rabbi Lanton thinks it’s unrealistic to pretend that Jewish children are not exposed to expressions of Christianity. “I think there can be some discussion without beginning to question our own faith, or fearing the children will think another religion is better.”

    That said, Rabbi Lanton made a plea for the Quebec government to show Jewish schools the tolerance that is the overarching goal of the ERC.

    “The beauty of Canada has always been that it is a mosaic, that everyone can take pride in their own identity… Every school has its own mission statement, and we cannot be asked to do something that borders on infringement of our religious freedom,” he said.

    “The government has to be careful in applying [the ERC], and ultimately the government has to respond to our needs, as long as the schools subscribe to the big idea of promoting tolerance. They should be allowed to find their own path that takes them toward the goal of understanding others better.”

    He added: “Each school has to find it own expression and that may or may not be satisfactory to the ministry.”


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    44 Comments
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    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    What is the issue. What better place to teach about “other” religions then in our own schools?

    Da ma l’hasheev

    Yitzchak
    Yitzchak
    15 years ago

    To 8:35am:

    The problem is that they want us to teach it “their way.”

    formely frum
    formely frum
    15 years ago

    they are not being forced to teach it, only if they want funding. Don’t like it, don’t take the money

    “The course must be taken by all students in every school that receives government funding, throughout elementary and high school. The government has said no exceptions will be made.”

    Milhouse
    Milhouse
    15 years ago

    The problem is first of all that learning about avoda zarah is itself forbidden. There are exceptions, but something that is officially assur is clearly inappropriate for school children. Second, the course undoubtedly requires the teacher to refer to all these beliefs with respect, and not to put them in a bad light, let alone to poke fun at them or poke holes in them. We are commanded to despise avodah zarah and to make fun of it, and it is forbidden to paint it in a positive light, as if there might be some truth to it, chas veshalom.

    (By the way, in Singapore they have an even bigger problem, because there’s an official government program to encourage people to visit other people’s houses of religion; it’s all very well to have thousands of people visiting the shuls, but unfortunately the Jews are expected to visit mosques, churches, and the temples of the various avodos zaros, and it’s difficult to avoid without running afoul of the authorities. They mean well, all they want is to promote harmony, but fundamentally that is the problem, because the Torah doesn’t believe in harmony with avoda zara.)

    Of course one solution is simply to ignore the law as much as possible, and pretend to teach the course according to the curriculum while really teaching it according to Torah. Whether they can get away with it is another question.

    As for government funding, Jews pay taxes like everyone else, so they’re entitled to this money; for the government to take it away is rish’us, and I think the Jews are entitled to do whatever is necessary in order to get it.

    anon
    anon
    15 years ago

    as usual . they are afraid of being over educated

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    To everyone who advocate for government funding of yeshivas in the US: take note. There are strings attached

    Moishe -Willyburger
    Moishe -Willyburger
    15 years ago

    Sir Milhouse, (like that name),:

    Please explain the big problem in Singapore. Also tell us how many religious Jews there are in Singapore that will be affected by the laws there.

    Also, in Singapore are there two Satmar Khillos?

    Like, hello, what you talkin’ about?

    Reb Yid
    Reb Yid
    15 years ago

    1. Just goes to show how “progressive” easily becomes totalitarian/oppressive. Quebec, supposedly a model of tolerance and liberalism, is shoving this hooey down people’s throats.

    2. I’m a supporter of gov’t aid to yeshivos, but I guess this is one of the down sides.

    avi
    avi
    15 years ago

    I have posted many times as to the hatred of the quebecois’ to anyone but themselves, particularly yidden! wake up rabbossai!!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    nu kfera “we need to protest the government”

    Yonason
    Yonason
    15 years ago

    Dinah d’Malchusa Dinah – If you accept the funds, play by the rules – shouldn’t be a threat anyway

    Avraham Abba
    Avraham Abba
    15 years ago

    If we want our children to hear the story from us, we will have to say it simply and truthfully.

    Teach our children that Jesus was a Jewish man who went off the derech more and more until he rejected us completely. He rejected the Torah and felt it needed to be fixed because he thought it was broken. Thousands of people became confused. Thousands of people grew angry. Many liked that he gave them permission to go against what Hashem says in the Torah. Thousands agreed with him.

    These thousands eventually became millions who eventually became billions.

    The people who felt that he was a god, decided to kill all the Jews who didn’t agree with them. They continued to do that for about 2,000 years.

    They felt that it’s okay to kill Jewish people because they did’t agree that he was god. So, they said, “The Jews killed god so let’s kill the Jews.”

    Who actually killed him? The Romans did. But since one of the Jews told on him they decided to kill all the Jews, not all the Romans.

    formely frum
    formely frum
    15 years ago

    To all,

    The Torah says do not worship other G-ds or worship avodos zaros, that I know, and can look up to see which posuck says that.

    However, where does it say, one cannot learn or get some knowledge of other peoples religious believes or that one needs to make fun of other people religion?

    Also, you want people to understand, respect, your believes (this does not mean they have to agree with you) but you do not want to understand others believes (no one says you have to agree) and think it is okay to make fun of them.

    the only other group that I can think of that feels the same way is the fanatical Muslims

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    The problem here is that in Quebec it is forbidden by the law to teach any religion in school.

    Now, the government wants to teach it thier way, which means that they tell you what a jew is and so on with all other religions.

    They did not consult with the Jewish community to find out what they are all about, they learned from some professor and thats the problem here.

    The idea is a good one, teaching tolerence and understanding about other religions especially in rural Quebec where they have never seen a jew.

    Torah Jew
    Torah Jew
    15 years ago

    I am shocked by some of the ignorant comments on this article. First let me remind some of you, “the kindness of nations is a sin” mishlei. The goyim will give us money for our schools but they want us to teach avoda zara to our children? This is just more evidence that we NEED to take care of our own!!!

    Freedom Fighter
    Freedom Fighter
    15 years ago

    Formerly Frum Says: However, where does it say, one cannot learn or get some knowledge of other peoples religious believes or that one needs to make fun of other people religion?

    Formely Frum:

    Please, please you are extremely ignorant on this issue, so stop spouting nonsense.

    This program is NOT about teaching respect to other religions. They are already learn about OTHER religions in the schools as part of world history.

    This program is meant to teach the children the ETHOS and CREED of the other religions.

    This is not teaching ABOUT other religions. THIS IS ABOUT TEACHING THE BASIC TENETS OF THE RELIGION!! The beliefs, the prophets, the saints, etc.

    Respect doesn’t mean studying your ethos. It means respecting that you have your ETHOS and the privilege to practice it freely.

    By the very practice of my religion, I reject another religion.

    That is not prejudice, that it choice.

    formely frum
    formely frum
    15 years ago

    to Avraham Abba:

    want to play that game than I propose the schools should teach all the banned gemara references about jesus. (ps it is no secret anymore it has been published in many scholarly books and of course many antisemitic web sites

    I think these are the less offensive one

    How about Jesus punished in Hell for eternity by being made to sit in a cauldron of boiling excrement? That image appears in early manuscripts of the Babylonian Talmud, as does a brief account of Jesus’ trial and execution—not by the Romans but by the Jewish high court, the Sanhedrin. The Jewish community, to the extent Jews were even aware of these excised texts, has been content to let them remain obscure and unknown.

    Then we can include all the nation the Jews killed listed in the Torah and Tenach. And How hashenm orders, kill all men woman children cattle, do not leave a living thing alive.

    what is fair is fair.

    PS another reason to learn is, is according to real history Jesus never started another religion and all the rest of the mumbo jombo, but the religioun was created in a latter generation.

    And I think he did follow Torah laws but not rabbinical laws. he was having a seder when they attested him and there is no evidence that he said he was massiach, and yes some followers did believe that.

    Lets argue, debate, but lets get the fact straight

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    The problem is that the goal of such a program is neutralize all beliefs and religions.. i.e. they’re all the same nonsense, and none of them is true. It’s simply a matter of personal preference to practice whatever traditions you have. Light a candle, or say a prayer, or whatever.

    This essentialy is asking to teach our children that yiddishkeit is simply a different flavor of nonsense Chas V’Shalom!

    This is a serious issue – equal to the Yevanim’s decrees. We must teach out children the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth!

    We must also teach our children, as the Torah teaches, to respect and love all of Hashem’s cretions, and continue to be light among the nations – to know right from wrong and make correct choices.

    formely frum
    formely frum
    15 years ago

    To Freedom Fighter

    Formely Frum:

    Please, please you are extremely ignorant on this issue, so stop spouting nonsense.

    I have been called many names from, shekiz, apikoros but never ignorant. They never said you have to accept the other religious believes, just understand where they are coming from and how their believe system works.

    Just because many non Jews took Jewish studies in college and most wanted to know our believe system, many of them where very devout or believers of Jesus. And after the semester. they learned a little about Judaism and yes yiddiskite (don’t worry if anything was said that was not true or represented that Orthodox believe and i knew it was not, I spoke up just like i do here, i was frum then) None of them changed their believes

    I can reject islam and and all the other 1,000’s of believe system does not mean I have to be ignorant how they believe

    PS you still did not answer my question where does it say you cannot learn or have to make fun of other religions

    to my frum friends who know who i am. you were right I am becoming addicted to this commenting thing. Need to go to web addiction rehab. and i am not getting any work done.

    Milhouse
    Milhouse
    15 years ago

    “Formerly frum”, go learn hilchos avoda zara. In principle it is assur to learn the rituals of AZ. There are heterim, but the fact that it’s assur means schools shouldn’t teach it; when each person feels the need to know, he can learn it on his own.

    Avraham Abba, you can teach your fairy tale if you like, but this course requires teaching a curriculum about *all* religions that are common in Quebec, in a respectful manner. And that’s a problem for yidden.

    Moishe -Willyburger, come down off the drugs. When you ask a sensible question I’ll answer it. Yes, there are Jews in Singapore, there have been since Singapore was repopulated in the 19th century, and no, to the best of my knowledge none of them are Satmar – why on earth would you even ask about that? What has this got to do with Satmar?

    proud to be frum
    proud to be frum
    15 years ago

    to formerly frum

    first of all you are a liar you are a yeshiva guy that has some issues with your being frum you sound like you wish you can go off the derech.

    but i got a secret for you out in the world they don”t either like dumb guys like you that say and post things w/o knowing the real facts

    In Quebec if you don”t teach the curriculim you can”t get a license to operate a school

    so the khelia is in a real problem

    אבל בכל דור ודור עומדים עלינו לכלתינו והקב”ה מצילינו מידם

    Freedom Fighter
    Freedom Fighter
    15 years ago

    Formely frum says :have been called many names from, shekiz, apikoros but never ignorant.

    Note: What I actually said is: Please, please you are extremely ignorant ON THIS ISSUE, so stop spouting nonsense.

    I did not call you ignorant. I called you ignorant on this ISSUE.

    In the frum schools in Quebec, unlike the US, many of the teachers are not Jewish. Some are Catholic, some are atheists, some are Moslem. Very few are frum because of the Government requirements to be a teacher.

    Frum people are pretty fairminded in Quebec, actually. They don’t live in Jewish Ghettos. In fact, had you been educated here, I wouldnt be surprised if you would have remained frum. Not be, formely frum.

    That being said, and do hope you do not take offense, you are IGNORANT ON THIS ISSUE. This is not about teaching tolerance, this about teaching religious creeds and ethos.

    As I posted, there already exists a program that teaches about other religion in world history.

    THIS PROGRAM actually teaches THE ETHOS of the religion. The saints, the creed in specific detail. One of the Jewish schools have already visited a church and have been addressed by priests there.

    I hope that clears the air.

    formely frum
    formely frum
    15 years ago

    to proud to be frum

    in the article it just says they cannot get funding, that all the article says. it does not say no license, if that is true prove it?

    I could respond to your other comments, but i won’t. If needed I can

    Freedom Fighter, no problem ps i do know the yeshiva Gedola of montreal on devimy I think and van horn is it still around

    Dave
    Dave
    15 years ago

    This seems fairly clear to me. If you take government money, you have to play by government rules. If you don’t like the rules, don’t take the money.

    Money Man
    Money Man
    15 years ago

    Dave says: This seems fairly clear to me. If you take government money, you have to play by government rules. If you don’t like the rules, don’t take the money.

    The Jewish schools in Quebec all receive funding, as do all private schools. That is the Quebec system.

    This is not just an issue of government money.

    This is an issue of whether your school is under the ministry of education. If it is, which all schools are, you must abide by the this new Law.

    By the way this law was enacted by Lawmkers who fear the new moslem influx to Quebec and the radicals they bring with them. The Jewish community has never posed a threat to the way of life of other Quebecers.

    This is not about money, it is about the LAW.

    Freedom Fighter
    Freedom Fighter
    15 years ago

    To FORMELY FRUM.

    You sound like you have been let down by some

    frum people in your life.

    Please do not judge the Torah by its adherents.

    The Torah is truth, and its followers are only people. People can be hypocrites and liars, but that doesn’t make the Torah false.

    Find out for yourself. You’ll be much happier.

    Torah Jew
    Torah Jew
    15 years ago

    Formerly Frum,

    From your many postings and brash responses I can tell you are an estranged young yid whose yetzer hora is strong. Its obvious “freedom fighter” was challenging what you stated NOT attacking you personally. If you cant tell that difference then you most likely cant tell the difference when someone is trying to help / hurt you, outside of the online world. You are acting like you are on a personal crusade against the frum establishment. Correct me if I am wrong but I don’t see you posting any positive responses to any articles.

    So what is your problem? Things dont make sense anymore, you think you were lied to your whole life; You blame the Gedolim for the plight of the Jewish people or maybe you have issues with Hashem?? Whatever your issues are, I suggest you redirect your self-righteous indignant anger too yourself first before looking elsewhere. It is clear that whatever your problems may be they are directly interfering with civil discourse. So please I am asking you politely that you leave your personal problems outside of the discussion and respond to the issues at hand. a shayna dank!

    Dave
    Dave
    15 years ago

    MM: Do schools have the option of being completely private, and taking no government money at all? If so, are they subject to this requirement?

    Simcha Torah
    Simcha Torah
    15 years ago

    Formerly Frum: You stated “I propose the schools should teach all the banned gemara references about jesus. (ps it is no secret anymore it has been published in many scholarly books and of course many antisemitic web sites.” You then went on to infer that the Talmud mentions him boiling in hot excrement.

    FACT: Not any place in the Talmud does the name yuske (yemach shemo) exist. The name Yeshu which is of course the acronym for yimmach shemo vezikhro is said for Haman and Hitla as well as numerous other people, who being so evil the Chazzal didn’t even want their names remembered. And while some yidden who are angry at the xtians from time to time joke about yuske boiling in hot excrement that doesn’t mean he is in the Talmud. When you investigate further you will find, the references dont match up with the xtian accounts at all. In fact they speak of people who have nothing to do with yuske or xtians. The only similarities are the names sounding similar in english. Where yuske (ysv) is directly spoken of though is in the Sefer Toledus Yeshu, written anytime between 2nd-5th century.

    But to humor you further I have posted the anecdotes to references of Yeshu in the Talmud. A simple wiki search can verify this…

    • Yeshu ben Pandera, cited as the teacher of a second century CE heretic (Chullin 2:22-24, Avodah Zarah 16b-17a)

    • A sorcerer who had been stoned in Lod on the eve of one Passover, who had five disciples. (Sanhedrin 43a)

    • An example of a “son who burns his food in public” (Sanhedrin 103a, Berakhot 17b) identified as Manasseh of Judah son of Hezekiah in a corresponding account in the Shulchan Arukh.

    • An idolatrous former student of the early first century BCE rabbi Yehoshua ben Perachiah. (Sanhedrin 107b).

    So can you tell exactly where yuske yemach shemo vezikhro is?

    formely frum
    formely frum
    15 years ago

    to Freedom Fighter

    I judge each and every person on their on merits frum, not, jew, non jew.

    I will admit that the action of many frum people and the so called rebbis and the the way the community condones their actions and still does got me thinking, questioning, as the recent example of Rubashkin, I do not think or see, hear that there is any frum people who will stop eating his products even is all the accusation are true.

    All groups have bad apple the Jews are no different, the real question is how the group responds. and on that point the frum have no leg to stand on. when is the last time or ever, that the community condemned a gonef, or at least stop giving him koved. By keeping silent, you are telling the world, the community, your children that it is okay to be a gonef.

    But that is not the reason I am not frum, it just got me thinking.

    Freedom Fighter
    Freedom Fighter
    15 years ago

    Dave says: Do schools have the option of being completely private, and taking no government money at all? If so, are they subject to this requirement?

    Dave, that is a good question. Actually, last year several yeshivos that DO NOT GET ANY MONEY from the government, were busted for not following the curriculum of the Ministere de L’education.

    They stayed under the radar for a while because they received no funding. But due to a firebombing at a Chassidishe Yeshiva, it came to light that this was a private school teaching Jewish studies only. As a result of that there has been a major crackdown on all private yeshivas and in yeshivas that offered 2 streams. It is against the law not to follow the Education Ministry.

    What Americans really don’t understand is that Quebec is a socialist Government.

    The Gov’t runs everything, gives you everything and controls everything.

    This is not the US.

    This is not live free or die country.

    Diane
    Diane
    15 years ago

    “As for government funding, Jews pay taxes like everyone else, so they’re entitled to this money; for the government to take it away is rish’us, and I think the Jews are entitled to do whatever is necessary in order to get it.” Who says?

    formely frum
    formely frum
    15 years ago

    To Torah Jew:

    I do not think I ever bashed, but i do criticize sometimes harshly the frum community further I see it from a different perspective than you do, but know how you look at things. yes it is easier to find fault from the outside looking in and that is a fact.

    I did mention B & H and chia Live line as very well respected by none Jews who know that they are frum organization just to show that non Jews can know a firm is run by frum yiddin and if treated right praise it, to show not every accusation involves antisemitism, sometime or many times it is warranted. And i also mentioned how brave twerzky is, when others where bashing him, even to admit publicly why he pulled out of the committee was very brave. yes I should have said I agree with DOV

    i do have a problem with is attitude that a yid can never be wrong, like the case with the hit and run, and right away accusation of antisemitism comes up or to say the goy was drunk. No one seemed to care that a person was killed and a family maybe lost its bread winner. You should have pity on his family the guy is dead, but no one cared is seems no one could care less.

    Or, why is it I cannot get anybody to say, if rubashkin really did those things then I think we should not eat his meat. why can’t anybody say that. If proven guilty you do not care that the workers were cheated out of their parnusha

    regarding this issue about Qubec, I said what is the big deal to learn other religions maybe you will understand your neighbors a little better and they maybe will understand you a little better to make a better community for all.

    I did say I do not see in the Torah, that one cannot learn about other religions just do not worship. regarding the funding issue I still agree don’t like it do not take the money.

    However, some where critical that it is more than funding it is being forced upon all funding or not. Not sure how I would know that since in the article it did not mention it. Since I am skeptic by nature I did go to the Quebec education web site to see for myself what the story is.

    It seems it will be forced to teach to all, and i never, said that was ok, all i said, I agree it should be tied to funding and still do. at least I check the fact which is more than most.

    As far as the Talmuld is concerned whether it is referring to Jesus if I remember correctly many robonim do think it was about Jesus.

    But that was not even the main point it just was to show that if you want to list all the bad things goyim did. We should also list the bad things yiddin did. remember, some things that people are ok with because hashen said so, does not mean others look at it that way and will say is was bad.

    bashing, what ever I said is no where near the brutal bashing the conservatives got because of hesher zatek. It was simply conservative treif. like it is so bad that they want workers to be treated honestly and have a living wage.

    It is not bashing, when I criticize, i do give logical reasons from my point, however, maybe not logical to you. I do not say Yid wrong, frum guilty, frum rebbie must be treif, like the comments from many on this board, goy wrong, goy drunk etc.

    And I still say rebbis even great ones can be in error, and make mistakes. Moshe made a mistake, if he did so can any godol unless one feels they are better or greater them Moshe.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    goyism claims it is derived from Judaism… in which case there is no sacrilege for them learning about Judaism.

    For us, what they do is avodah zora, at least for us, and what they have done to us, in the name of their deity, we don’t want to pollute our minds with their rationale for perpetrating such evil.

    And since we teach tolerance and ethics they should recognize that we don’t need their curriculum, our alternate curriculum achieves their stated objective, and then our schools should be exempt.

    formely frum
    formely frum
    15 years ago

    I will try, but I know it is useless

    Anonymous Says:

    comments – arrow goyism claims it is derived from Judaism… in which case there is no sacrilege for them learning about Judaism

    ______________________________________________

    Simply false, only Islam and Christianity maybe you never heard of Buddhism and Hinduism and many others. Buddhism and Hinduism are about 1 billion people. again to know other religions is not sacrilegious worshiping is

    _________________________________________________

    For us, what they do is avodah zora, at least for us, and what they have done to us, in the name of their deity, we don’t want to pollute our minds with their rationale for perpetrating such evil.

    __________________________________________________

    According to Buddhism killing a cow is one of the biggest sins you can do. So things that yiddin do, do offend and sacrilegious.

    I do not think they will excuse or say the church killed Jews because of g-d will. That be part of the curriculum. In the tanach we also have stories where hashem said invade, kill every woman, man, child and cattle, and there were many times mass killings on hashems name. (or am I dreaming and the tanach does not have these stories)

    I know your answer, that was ok, because that was out deity who told us, and ours is the real one and only one

    ________________________________________________

    And since we teach tolerance and ethics they should recognize that we don’t need their curriculum, our alternate curriculum achieves their stated objective, and then our schools should be exempt.

    This one is too funny. Seeing thing only your own way and from your perspective is just the opposite of tolerances. To expected all other to conform to your need or believes and not caring what the others think, like all the things in Israel or the bike story says you are not tolerant

    Ethics, how many yeshivas are under investigation for falsifying paperwork and lying to the Quebec government to get money? How many in Brooklyn, is that they way you teach ethics by having the yeshivas themselves steal scam to get money and many times getting the children involved to make the scam work.

    Innocent until proven guilty

    How many yeshivas were found guilty of fraud? I will stop here.

    If there are many more like you, i think I will have to change my mind. before i said it should not be forced on the yeshivas. Now I see the yeshivas need it more than others and should be mandatory

    Mordy
    Mordy
    15 years ago

    I saw a syllabus the government prepared and wrote a response in a local paper as to the dangers of this curriculum. Here it is:

    Starting this school year in Quebec, in an attempt to promote tolerance, all Jewish schools will be required to teach the new curriculum of “Ethics and Religious Culture.” One of the chapters in the new book to be distributed to high school students blurs the lines between Judaism and Christianity. Published by Modulo Éditeur, schoolchildren discuss in French the holiday of Pâques (Easter). One child says that Pâques is the holiday of the resurrection of J. The second corrects his friend and says that Pâque is a Jewish holiday that commemorates the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt. (In French, the word for Easter (Pâques) and Passover (Pâque) is pronounced the same way) The book goes on to say that the moral of this is to teach us that there are different ways to celebrate or understand a holiday, Pâque(s) being an example.

    In its attempt at rapprochement, it is wrong and disingenuous to show how Easter and Passover are basically one holiday, being observed in two different ways by Jews and Christians. In a historical anomaly, the French names of Easter and Passover are the same, but that is where the similarity ends. What’s to stop a young impressionable Jewish child from going to church to celebrate Easter if it’s just another way of observing Passover? We in the Jewish community must stand up for our cherished beliefs and tell the government that while their goals of promoting tolerance are admirable, the ends never justify the means, and a curriculum which attempts to merge Easter and Passover into one is unacceptable material for any Jewish day school.

    It is clear that this course has no place in a frum school. Hopefully, the government won’t come down too hard on our schools.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    I am usually not a fan of the Quebec political system, but they are 100% correct on this one and this course should be implemented accross North America. Why shouldn’t Jews learn about other religions. What is wrong with expressing an interest in what your neighbours believe in? No one is encouraging conversion! When is this denial of the world around you going to stop in the frum communities. If you want to shelter yourself from other religions so badly, what are you doing living in a free democratic society? Go live in Bnei Brak and be happy!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    I think that formerly frum is the only one on this board who does not walk around with blinders on all day.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    I would like to set the record for some things discussed on this issue.

    In quebec the law states you can not operate any school private or public and teach what you want even if you dont take money from the gouvernment.

    The only way to edcuate your kids legally not thru the schools is called home school, which means that the parents have to teach the kids at home.

    Number 2 no school funds were kept back for so called none compliance of the subjects taught in our schools.

    Number 3 they dont have the facts of all aspects of the relligion to really understand the issues that are important to make a difference.

    Number 4 when they were doing a trial run of this program they took jewish kids from soloman schecter school to a church which is unacceptable to jews.

    The only part of this course which is un acceptable is the explination of the religion not the tolerence and etichs.

    The purpose and reason it was generayed for is correct but the way it was done and put together is no good.

    Freedom Fighter
    Freedom Fighter
    15 years ago

    ANONYMOUS SAYS ” I am usually not a fan of the Quebec political system, but they are 100% correct on this one and this course should be implemented accross North America.”

    This is a ridiculous and foolish statement.

    This would never be implemented anywhere in North America, except for Quebec, because it denies a basic freedom, freedom from religion.

    On top of that this would never happen in the United States because of separation of Church and State.

    Again, again: This course is not ABOUT religions. This course teaches RELIGIOUS TENETS. Most people who advocate this force fed garbage on this blog, live in the US, and take their many freedoms for granted.

    And by the way, you can be grateful that you do, too, because some of you bloggers would be charged and persecuted under Canada’s very strict anti-hate laws.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    freedom fighter – separation of church and state? are you serious? just because its written, doesn’t make it so. Politics is controlled by special interest groups, a large one being the evangelicals. What were some of the biggest issues in the last presidential election? Abortion and gay marriage. If there was truly no separation of church and state, then politicians would not try to outlaw these things, rather it would be up to the different religions behave according to their beliefs. Why involve politics?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    15 years ago

    oddly enough, the government wants to put a ban on religious symbols. therefore it would be forbidden for a jew to wear a yarmulka and for a muslim to wear a hijab and for a priest to wear any of his religious symbols. they want you to learn about religious tolerance, but don’t want u to actively display any religion. canada is totally a socialist country- and in the US beware, if obama gets elected, you will have pretty much the same thing here. the government in control of everything…from education to healthcare.

    FREEDOM FIGHTER
    FREEDOM FIGHTER
    15 years ago

    anonymous 1o:42 pm says: freedom fighter – separation of church and state? are you serious? just because its written, doesn’t make it so.

    Dear 10:42 pm: Find me one instance in the ENTIRE United States of America, where the government FORCED public and private schools, to study the creeds of other religions and FORCED public or private school kids to visit churches and study religious theologies in schools.

    Give me a break.

    And I reiterate that you Americans should not take your many freedoms for granted. Including:

    freedom of speech, freedom from religion.

    Canada is a socialist country but Quebec is uber-socialist and also very nationalist. The Parti-Quebecois who have been the majority for a long time, are actually a Nationalist-Socialist Party.

    Heard that term before?

    What you Americans also don’t get, those who think that this course is a great idea, because it teaches TOLERANCE, is that this Province aint TOLERANT and it ain’t the good ole’ USA.

    The rallying cry at the defeat of the Parti-Quebecois referendum at separation attempt was:

    Le Quebec au Quebecois! (Quebec for Quebecers) (ie those that are originally from France) all others, regardless if they have lived in this province for over a century, are considered “outsiders”.

    Le Quebecois pride themselves on being “pure laine”,or “pure wool” which means no English blood in their veins, just 100% pure french red blood all the way back to the 1600s. And this is not some lunatic group, this is the majority.

    What you also don’t know,is at the loss of the Parti-Quebecois referendum to separate, the Premier of Quebec (like a governor in the US) yelled out to the crowd:

    “Do we have to feel bad about this vote? No. Because, we, we Quebecers all voted for separation.”

    “It is only the MONEY and the ETHNICS that caused our defeat.” ( a nice hint at Jews)

    He said this cheering thousands, who responded: “Le Quebec au Quebecois, Le Quebec au Quebecois”

    Sounds like tolerance to you?

    This course is not about teaching tolerance, this is religious coercion.

    And I am tired of hearing Americans, from the safety of their FREEDOMS in the US, telling us, what a great idea this is.

    Matzahlocal101
    Matzahlocal101
    15 years ago

    formerly frum and currently ignorant,

    “The Torah says do not worship other G-ds or worship avodos zaros, that I know, and can look up to see which posuck says that.

    However, where does it say, one cannot learn or get some knowledge of other peoples religious believes or that one needs to make fun of other people religion?”

    ——-

    Shmos 23:13

    יג) ובכל אשר אמרתי אליכם תשמרו ושם אלהים אחרים לא תזכירו לא ישמע על פּיך

    That is not a medresh, nor a gemara, nor mussar, it is a posek and the posek is very clear. Likewise the Gemara is very clear when it say is is a mitzvah to ridicule avoidah zara. There is no dissenting opinion. (except yours)

    ______________

    “Also, you want people to understand, respect, your believes”

    ——

    No, I don’t want them to understand, I don’t want them to care, I don’t even care if they don’t respect me, they’re Goyim they will always hate Jews, and that is their job to encourage Jews not to leave the fold. I want them to ignore me and leave me alone so I can serve Hashem as my zaida did, and his Zaida before him, etc. Forcing me to visit the pulpits from where anti semitic diatribes were spewed for two centuries will endear me them to them, or them to me. But thank you for reminding me to renew my passport.