New York – Editorial: Reversed Wisdom: Daas Torah vs. Daas Baalei Batim

    74

    New York – An oft-repeated idiom in the circle of those who follow the pronouncements of today’s Gedolim is “Daas Torah is hepech daas Baalei Batim”. Loosely translated, this conveys the idea that a lay opinion is not only invalid; it is the polar opposite of true Torah wisdom.

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    Allegedly a quote from the S”ma (a commentator on the Shulchan Aruch), it seems to be more of an urban myth, a somewhat misquoted version of something else that he said, and also seems to be intended to convey an air of papal infallibility on the Gedolim of the generation. Whatever the source, the line is being quoted more and more frequently as issues of Torah concern more and more frequently hit the news.

    This idiom is important because of a basic tenet in Halacha: If the Gedolim of previous generations enacted something, we must abide by it, irrelevant of the current state of knowledge.

    Application of this principle is the problem, though. Things are different now than they once were.

    For example, Ezra and his Bet Din at the time of the rebuilding of the Temple were highly vocal and outspoken about issues of concern at the time, such as intermarriage and the return to Israel. They preached, coerced, and even cursed (at least according to some) those who didn’t listen.

    Yet when they saw that perhaps their enactment requiring mikvah for men was too onerous and had been enacted too hastily, they retracted it. Sadly, today’s Batei Din rarely retract anything, no matter the issue and the collateral damage of chilul Hashem. Most often, it is likewise for the grave pronouncements of the Gedolim.

    So we as observant intelligent Orthodox Jews have to weigh between following the “Daas Torah” opinion of the Gedolim automatically or rejecting it and following one’s own opinion, based on the failure of the system to be self-correcting. A tough choice indeed, for one raised to revere the established rabbinate.

    In that light, is the “Daas Torah is hepech Daas Baalei Batim” statement correct and applicable nowadays?

    Certainly most formal organizations have clearly-stated stances on this. Agudath Israel’s proclaimed raison d’être is to represent the daas of the Gedolim, or at least those they proclaim as Gedolim. Likewise most other rabbinic organizations, including for example the one headed by an ex-con columnist and the one headed until just last week by a ultra-right-wing self-proclaimed “defender of the faith” and author of a book about avoiding sexual temptations.

    Pondering this last weekend, I couldn’t help wonder at the basic premise. Is, in fact, Daas Torah the hepech of daas Baalei Batim? I came to the conclusion that it is, based on the following:

    When a certain rabbi persuaded others to ban a learned author for expressing minority opinions on the age of the universe, a long list of rabbis signed on, creating a Chilul Hashem in the guise of protecting authentic Judaism. Yet when that same rabbi was arrested and convicted of a huge multi-million dollar mortgage scam, they were silent. Even when it emerged that the man had authored a torah book, and had previously served time for fraud, not a word was heard. Now we learn that his second, another zealot for alleged “Torah values”, has been adding entirely new dimensions to the term rabbinic abuse.

    Daas Baalei Batim (of those I spoke with, anyway) was to laud the first author for his work, recognize that his work brought some people to torah belief, and encourage him to insert in subsequent editions that his opinions did not reflect all facets of the Orthodox spectrum. The same daas also strongly and harshly condemned the felonious instigator of the ban, as well as those who ignored his previous criminal record and allowed him to represent Orthodox Judaism vocally and in writing. About the second…there’s both too much to say, and not enough. Disgust is far too mild a term. His apparent silent admission to the charges would lead me to ban him from even entering any holy place, let alone lead a yeshiva. Daas Baalei Batim would also follow the money trail, no matter where it leads, and remove all those rabbis who were obviously bought with dirty money.

    When a corrupt yeshiva faculty for years protected a molester, a certain very prominent rabbi refused to get involved because it was “outside his neighborhood”, by about a half-mile. Yet to lend moral support to an admitted felon caught red-handed in one of the biggest chilul Hashem cases of the decade, he flew hundreds of miles. (And he is not one of the rabbis who flew to lend moral support to Jonathon Pollard.) Lest the good rabbi feel offended, might I add that another 25 rabbis also felt the need to fly out there to lend moral support, not counting the many from his own sect, who actually correctly belong there.

    Daas Baalei Batim was to condemn the Flatbush molester and all those who abetted him, and to stay as far away as possible from the Midwestern court carnival. Also to support the Markey bill (This allows the victims to sue, even many years later. It is opposed by those who worry about the schools potentially being forced to close after losing lawsuits), even though it might put that family business- and several others-at risk.

    When a major yeshiva honored one of the last of the old-timers, a “Rabbi” who made his fortune in nursing homes and had been arrested along the way in a Shabbos-day bust leading to TV coverage of him being dragged out of shul, not a word was heard.

    Daas Baalei Batim was to not honor anyone who’d ever been in prison, at any time and for any reason. Not at a dinner, not with a seat on the Mizrach wall, not with anything.

    When a leading Mechaneches and founder of several girls schools was headlined with sensational accusations against her husband- that he had tried to poison her- not a word was heard. The scandal merited a dozen pages in an NY magazine! Nor was a word heard when she abandoned those claims and returned to him, presumably unafraid.

    Daas Baalei Batim would have been to have pity on her, but still remove her from any position dealing with impressionable girls as quickly as possible. Didn’t her return prove that either she lied, or she did something dangerous & stupid? Either way, is this person one that should be mentoring young women?

    When the Gedolim were presented with “facts” about singer Lipa’s supposedly risqué (or at least envelope-pushing) behavior and stage presence, they immediately banned his concert from happening, without corroborating evidence and without consultation. This led to huge financial losses to the promoter, the singer and to the charity that promoted it, as well as a huge chilul Hashem as the media gleefully reported it.

    Daas Baalei Batim would have been to wait until after it was over, investigate properly and thoroughly, and at that point, if necessary, ban future events featuring him.

    When an Orthodox Rabbi, with what appeared at the time to be permission, co-wrote a book with a famous reform rabbi about Jewish faith, the Gedolim banned not only the book, they barred the author from participating in any of the many scheduled debates between the authors. This led virtually every Jewish community newspaper in the country to publicly comment on how the Orthodox are afraid to debate modernity, and created what was certainly among the most widespread, long-lasting and most-publicized Chilul Hashem’s in American Jewish history. The Reform rabbi still made the speaking tour, turning the debates into a victory tour for the Reform movement.

    Daas Baalei Batim would have been to let the debates happen, to at least attempt to minimize the chilul Hashem. Meanwhile, “Rabbi” Shmuley stages polemical debates with Christian ministers frequently and although most think he usually loses, the Gedolim don’t comment on that at all.

    When Israeli police arrested a woman for brutalizing her own child due to mental illness, the Gedolim either (depending on who you believe) promoted anti-government demonstrations or failed to condemn them. Either way, the worldwide headlines certainly failed to bring honor to our people.

    Daas Baalei Batim would have been to immediately and loudly condemn the demonstrations and make every effort to stop them.

    When yeshiva students were arrested in Japan for drug-smuggling, the Gedolim made valiant efforts to have them freed, and signed fund-raising letters proclaiming them “Shevuyim” or, in effect, unjust hostages whose release takes precedence to almost everything else in the Torah.

    Daas Baalei Batim would have been to publicize the scandal extensively amongst the yeshiva world, where the boys are apparently too naïve to realize that being offered significant payment for simply delivering a suitcase indicates something is seriously wrong. This example would have been a prime deterrent to prevent this from happening again. Essential, because next time it could be something even worse than drugs: It could be explosives.

    When “Askanim” presented the possibility that sheitels made from Indian hair might potentially be forbidden to use, an immediate ban was instituted. That led to many humorous articles mocking Judaism, as well as public sheitel-burnings and the inevitable comparisons between the Orthodox and the Taliban.

    Daas Baalei Batim would have been to investigate fully and thoroughly before allowing any announcements to be made. In fact, they turned out to be okay, so all the fuss and attendant Chilul Hashem was for nothing.

    I could go on and on easily, and it would be tempting to do so if I had a stronger stomach. Mentioning the failure of the Gedolim to act or even usually to comment on Agunos, on metzizah b’feh, on brain death, on organ transplants, on Mondrowitz, on the Lanner cover-up, on the too many cases of Frum fraud, on Rebbes being arrested for fraud and/or money laundering and/or arms dealing and/or drug smuggling and/or for molesting women on airplanes, on the radical burkha ladies of RBS, on the public statements by the Neturei Karta, and most recently of course on the EJF embarrassment, which could serve as the gold-standard example of what “ a shanda far de Goyim” really means.

    By the same token, their pronouncements on thrips, on copepods, the internet, text messaging, music, women’s minyans, sheitels and the stores that sell them too close to yeshivas, all indicate a severe failure to comprehend reality.

    Is it that they actually believe that “Daas Torah is hepech daas Baalei Batim” is in their favor? Is that why they can enact Takanos that exempt themselves? That Roshei Yeshiva so hostile to each other that they build a wall in their office are entrusted with young men to mold? That one who hijacked a famed Yeshiva name for his own private fund-raising empire got away with it? That self-proclaimed exemption may be tested against the standard of “v’hiyisem neki’im”, that one is obligated to behave not imperiously but rather the opposite. Even a Gadol owes the public an explanation.

    Perhaps especially a Gadol.

    As every adult knows, the conventional wisdom is usually correct and thus my own take is that in fact, the idiom is correct and Daas Torah is in fact hepech daas Baalei Batim.

    It’s just that this correct conventional wisdom is on the side of the Baalei Batim.

    Bio:
    Rabbi Ginzberg attended high school at the Hebrew Theological College in Skokie and learned in Mir Yeshiva – attending R. Chaim Shmulevitz’s Chabura for two years. He currently manages a grant program for Chassidim that want a vocational education.

    He also volunteers his time teaching Baalei Teshuva (one of them wrote a book about the experience, the best-selling “the Year of Living Biblically”, where he is extensively quoted).

    Additionally he is involved with running an emotional support group for people involved in the Geirus process.

    This article first appeared at Emes Ve-Emunah blog


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    74 Comments
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    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Thank you VIN for publishing this. Unfortunately, there are many impostors claiming to represent Daas Torah today. May we be worthy of leadership as we had in past generations.

    give praise when due
    give praise when due
    14 years ago

    oh wow Rabbi Ginzberg finally i can look up to a Rabbi and be proud to be a frum yin in this day and age.

    b”h the old time “shtultz” of what a rov is supposed to be like has sufaced.

    thank you Rabbi Ginzberg

    Please tell me how do I get in touch with you, via email phone etc.

    chazak and hope to hear lots more from you

    a new follower in nyc, a victim of rabbinical fraud

    thank you

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Unfortunately, he is right. But the bigger question is, what do we do about it? Hashem yerachem…

    “Additionally he is involved with running an emotional support group for people involved in the Geirus process” – at this point we may need one for those who have completed the process as well (with EJF in particular).

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    On the mark . very sad indeed but very true.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Good bless you rabbi..

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    The question who are the real gadolim and what degree of importance to assign to their views is debated here every day on VIN. In the end, every one should rely on their own posek and not be influcenced by some report that the “gadolim” have paskined this way or that way or have issued some new chumrah. Follow your own rebbe and posek and presumably they will take into account the views of legitimate gadolei yisroel.

    moshe
    moshe
    14 years ago

    Please do no confuse the issues with the facts

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    This was a great article, until you deputized Slifkin. Leaders may make mistakes, but mocking them and setting up hate blogs is a petty and ineffective way of illing the leadership gap.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Best written article – EVER

    JOEY
    JOEY
    14 years ago

    Yiftach bedoro keshmuel bedoro, If This Is A bal habayis than the gedolim are just fine!

    eb
    eb
    14 years ago

    Thank you for posting this.

    Jack
    Jack
    14 years ago

    Thank g-d the truth has finally been told. Y’yasher Kochacho as you will need it as the religious mafia will undoubtedly seek to denigrate and morally castrate you. May the brachah bestowed upon Pinchas bu H’kbh be granted to you for putting the spear through deceit and corruption of our generation.

    S Reich
    S Reich
    14 years ago

    R Ginsberg, it saddens when an intelligent and insightful individual gets so caught up in his own hyperbole that he delegitimizes his own case. How silly to mix the dangerous (Mondrowitz etc) and the truly good (Rubashkin) in your diatribe. You would have done far better to find two or three examples of strange rulings or actions then to sound like a venomous, ranting, angry man. Sorry.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Total nonsense,evreyone knows the stor about the bochurim in japan,and askanim are warning evreybody,espically bochurim.Also,by most rabbanim the sheitel is still asur.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    A perfect example of someone who uses questionable facts to present his own agenda, assume that as Daas Torah is infallible, therefore must be always wrong, and gloss over the numerous denunciations which as not presented in the media agianst proven misdeeds, but as they not headline grabbing, are not reported. How many times has it been reported that a gadol denounced a crime, or when a known moser attempted to get a number of Roshei Yeshivos to get involved in his crimes, and they refused was it headline on this site? This happened with the moser from Deal on numerous occassions, but as it presents Rabbonim in a favorable light (!!), it won’t be reported.

    Chaim S.
    Chaim S.
    14 years ago

    The readers would do well to read the entire blog rather than the diget presented here. Rabbi Ginzberg is not suggesting wholesale disregard of Gedolim.

    AuthenticSatmar
    AuthenticSatmar
    14 years ago

    I am not impressed with “Rabbis” that find a dvar torah to support their torah bashing, yet virtually ignore the torah in their daily lives and in their duties as pulpit leaders. Many of the gedolim he speaks about are far more learned than he is.
    He chooses to attack “orthodox Chareidi” judaism while ignoring the many problems in the “Modern Orthodox” community that he is part of. Every community should be focusing on their own.
    Just as he is offended when a chareidi “Gadol” will preach about the “Modern” lifestyle, I am similarly offended when a MO Rabbi will preach about my yiddishkeit choices. They all talk about “understanding alternative views of yidishkeit”, yet they have no understanding of ours, and condemn it at every option. Today, anyone with an internet and a keyboard can preach and attack anyone they want. For VIN to reprint these articles and giving them legitimacy is offending.
    That aside, true Daas Torah and Torah is eternal. The solution is not knocking Daas Torah, it should be in determining who is eligible to represent Daas Torah. True Gedolim don’t shoot from the mouth, and do think about what they say before they speak. All those he mentions, are obviously not gedolim as they have not properly acted.
    Today if someone has a few $$’s and opens a shul or yeshiva, he is transformed overnight into a gadol – similar to those that bought “Kohen Gadol” and didn’t survive Yom Kippur.
    Each person needs to choose for himself a moreh derech and ignore everyone else. Everyone needs to hear what they say, but then use their own Daas Torah to decide how to respond. NO ONE can make a blanket statement about DAAS TORAH.

    mt mehdi
    mt mehdi
    14 years ago

    Thank you!!!!!!!!!! It had to be said.

    Barzilai
    Barzilai
    14 years ago

    The Sm’a the author alluded to is in Choshen Mishpat 3:13. Decide for yourself if it has been misquoted. Anyway, according to this writer, who cares what the Sm’a or the Mahari Veil said? In fact, he might be too learned to trust, too. Let’s only seek advice from the unlearned. After all, the entire Jewish community is holy, and what right do those other people have to elevate themselves over the community of Hashem?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    In America daas baal habaatim unfortunately wins because that’s where the money is.
    I am the principal of a large school in Brooklyn, and many of my decisions based on what I think is the proper method of chinuch are overturned by “the board” – even when the rosh hayeshiva himself and other rebbaim agree with me.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Today being a Gadol means you never have to say I’m sorry.

    But reality is that we no longer have Gedolim.

    zw
    zw
    14 years ago

    Very well written article, but I really believe that each of the cases and allegations put forth by the author need to be examined individually in terms of why it is that the Rabbonim acted the way that they did.

    There have indeed been a lot of unfortunate reactions (overreactions) to current events, though I believe that in many cases, one or two people (yes- even heilige baalabatim) were responsible for misleading the gedolim.

    The Agudas Yisrael philosophy of having the gedolim be the backbone of klal yisrael is a Torah based philosophy whether you happen to agree with it or not.

    I do not believe that you are coming to disagree with R’ Aharon, R’ Yaakov, R’ Moshe, et al. You may have individual disagreements with the way situations were handled, but you are not big enough to argue with the institutors and flag bearers of this philosophy.

    Moshiach Now!
    Moshiach Now!
    14 years ago

    After reading this, I can only say how much I miss the Lubavitcher Rebbe zya

    too painful, but true
    too painful, but true
    14 years ago

    You should come out of your shell, Rabbi, and form a new progressive yeshivish/cahssidish American movement. You’ll catch on like fire. The time is right.. we havent produced a true Gadol, or fresh perspective since the last european Gedoilim were nIftar, and the young generation is at a loss.

    Baal Habos
    Baal Habos
    14 years ago

    Rabbi Ginzburg, Yeyasher Kochaha! Perhaps some semblance of normalcy is begining to return to Yiddishkeit.

    bucky from WI
    bucky from WI
    14 years ago

    This is a man who is not afraid to tell the truth. I have a number of “frei” friends who get nothing but pure nachas sending me information on the latest Orthodox scandals. I am getting to the point where I believe what he is telling me. The scary part is, before the internet, this behavior no doubt occurred as or more frequently. We are Yidden, we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard than everybody else. Anything other than that is hypocrisy. I choose me Rebbe’s VERY carefully, observing them and watching their behavior and asking simple shailos before the tough ones. I see, though, the Daas Torah syndrome making people into unthinking zombies. The thing is, we want ot be Frum, we believe in the Torah m Sinai, it is the behavior and social culture of the Charedi that really turn man many off with good reason. I think that is why the internet is being banned so vehemently…unfortunately I think it is an attmpt at control of information and people, not tznius. Why would you ban a Frum server or search engine that blocks all objectionalble content, other than you do not want people ot know the truth. Thank G-d for the internet, it will make us better more learned Jews

    Wow
    Wow
    14 years ago

    What a well-written article!

    AGADOLINMYOWNMIND
    AGADOLINMYOWNMIND
    14 years ago

    Since I am a baal habus, I will first comment you for your article. I am sure it took you time to write it, although it is completely trash. You seem to show that baal habatim have klalim and gedolim have specifics. This actually is why a gadol is a gadol. Because he can see why things don’t fit into a klal. I won’t go into the specifics of any case, not because I can’t defend each and every one, but because I don’t have the time to live off grant money and sit in yeshiva doing this. To only point out certain cases will be acknowledging fault in other areas – of which there is none. However, you should know that your daas is completely reverse from torah-true judaism. I don’t know why VIN gives you this podium, or others like you. However, I suggest you go to your rabayim, if they wish to claim you as a talmud, and discuss these issues with them. Maybe you will learn something. At a minimum, it will teach you what is a gadol.

    honost opinion
    honost opinion
    14 years ago

    I find this article the real example of das bal habyis! It is true and well known that every good thing can be misused and abused, just like in each box of apples you will find a few rotten apples, likewise is the issue with Rabbonim, most of them devote their precious and valuable time to enhance and lighten jewish soles and minds, helping with “mesirus nefesh” whom ever and with ever possible,but you know what? Nobody will ever put that in a piece of writing like rav ginzburg… But that’s the real and true fact,
    Remember the old slogan, when I’m right no one remembers, but when I’m wrong no one forgets….
    Inm these days ans era when people are hungry for sensations and rocky headlines there is no wonder that the negative will always arise the positive, but it is the “Emes” who will ultimately prevail!!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Rabbi Ginzberg makes some excellent points. It appears that we are in a era where individuating, despite being well within the four corners of halacha, is no longer acceptable. Sadly, that means that true bnei torah who are not singing a party line are ostracized; yet, reshaim gemurim that “walk the walk” are not only accepted but held up as models of conduct.
    I would take issue with one point made by Rabbi Ginzberg. While I am not familiar with all the cases that he alludes to with regard to criminal activity, Rabbi Ginzberg may be painting with too broad a brush and may even be a bit naive. A guilty verdict does not necessarily mean that the defendant committed a crime. It only means that a prosecutor was able to put on a better show than the defense as determined by the jury vote. A guilty plea does not mean that a defendant committed a crime; it just means that he doesn’t want to go to court and leave his future to the hands of a prosecutor and jury. It appears that Rabbi Ginzberg only affords this courtesy to Jonathon Pollard. Perhaps he needs to extend that courtesy a bit further.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Mr Ginzberg has clearly demonstrated that he has some beef with daas Torah. What Shmuly does is a clear chullul Hashem because the non Religious Jews on the fence go to his debates and up losing more faith then when they came in. And as for Japan, Mr Ginzberg’s lack knolwedge of Torah, is represented in his lack of respect for Daas Torah. Mr Ginzberg wouldve have been at Achashveirosh’s party because of his Chillul Hashem Antics rather than have listened to Mordechai. This is exactly WHY you NEED Daas Torah. Because our minds have been molded by western thinking NOT Torah. Shame on this article. Moshiach Now

    mistakes happen
    mistakes happen
    14 years ago

    dont throw out the baby with the bathwater. we do have well-meaning true gdolim, but they are faced with unprecedented challlenges.

    Well written but arguable...
    Well written but arguable...
    14 years ago

    I see you are a very eloquent writer however you have not thought this through completely. The main problem and the primary reason why we have a problem is very simple. Nobody knows what the Gedolim really say or think. Every time there is a statement from this and that Gadol its never a PUBLIC FORUM. Its always to some private person, gabbai, askan, or otherwise biased person with an agenda. Additionally, the people who report things and keep Gedolim in the know, are these people reliable or just self serving people with an agenda who say things in a way that the Gadols response will fall in line with their agenda??? I think the Gedolim are being duped and so are the public. You can’t blame a Gadol when he isn’t being given the facts. They sit and learn Torah, they rely on “trusted” people to fill them in otherwise they’d be busy making phone calls all day and not learning and hence not being or becoming Gedolim. That’s why when I hear so and so Gadol said something I always take it with a grain of salt. We all know an answer to a shaila is strongly influenced by HOW IT IS ASKED AND FOR WHOM IT IS BEING ASKED. We need to start being closer to our own Rav’s and start relying on them. They are the ones who know Halacha and what’s going on and they will guide you. Stop picking on Gedolim and looking to find fault. If you want to solve the problem as I clearly stated it and meet personally with Gedolim to give them the truth (if these self servers don’t try killing you first) then go ahead. But to write such an article is to be guilty of what you have accused the Rabbanim of. Namely to make a statement without proper investigation into the facts before making a public statement. Your article is almost hypocritical in that sense. Don’t let emotion replace logic.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    While I do not agree with everything in this article, it is more than interesting reading. It questions the veracity of what we have come to consider Daas Torah and its infallibility. From my vantage point, he is quite direct and right. We have blindly followed what we have established as Daas Torah. While blind faith in gedolim is laudable, the reality is that many of these gedolim lack the experience and basic knowledge about much of what they judge and decide. No one needs to get training or schooling on how to protect oneself, and this is what we observe today.

    I personally have great respect for the gedolim that are bashed here, except that I am more aware of their shortcomings. I have discussed issues with many of them, each time presenting them with information they lacked. Piskei denim have been changed by giving them info. I suggest that the failure to address molestation is strongly rooted in ignorance, not disregard for victims. There is reversal that has occurred when these gedolim have experienced tragedy (Rachmono litzlan) of these sorts within their own families. Has the holy ivory tower prevented our gedolim from understanding today’s world?

    poshiter baal habayis
    poshiter baal habayis
    14 years ago

    I think the issue is really what is really daas torah .every person who opens a yeshiva considers himself daas torah.is that the case? the real gedolim ie.r”chaim kanievski who devote their entire lives learning torah and are not affiliated with any political establishment are the real daas torah .the rest are all the same daas baal habayis

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Rav Hutner ZTZAL taught that when Moshe Rabbenu forgot halacha, he watched to see what the Kehillah would do. Why? Because Am Yisrael posesses innate navuah in its maasim. I feel that in these troubling moments Baal HaBattim are feeling strong emotions toward hypocracy and lack of straightforward leadership. We have high expectations and we are very saddened by the reality of our Kehillah’s problems. The more I reflect on our sad situation the more I respect Rav Samson Rafael Hirsch’s hashkafah. I encourage everyone to read Rav Hirsch’s amazing sefer The Nineteen Letters in which he states clearly what each Yid must do to save the Kavod of the Torah from being trampled. May HKBH give Am Yisrael the strength to do the right thing today and in the future. Amen.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    Rabbi Ginzberg – Thank you so much for articulating what so many of us feel.

    Chaim S.
    Chaim S.
    14 years ago

    Rabbi Ginzberg spoke from his heart but using his brain to do so. This isn’t an easy issue to confront. First of all Daas Torah is a fact clearly stated as a mitzva in the Torah. Afilu omer lecho al yemin shehu semol. And Daas Baalei Batim is stated in the Gemora Sanhedrin as shlosho roei bokor, not very complimentary at all. That said, when is Daas Torah truly infallible and when is Daas Baal Habayis valid? I would like to posit that Daas Torah is infallible when it comes to a halachic issue. When we are talking about a wordly issue, even if it has some halachic implications, then the godol is just another very smart man. And when these issues affect the world of Gedolim, putting thir whole infrastructure in peril, then the Gedolim are affected by another Torah statement, that bribery blinds the wise. The cover-ups that gedolim are making is nothing more than an internal bribery or blinding themselves to their fallibility in addressing issues which call into question their Torah-given so-called infallibility. A Godol can hardly be trusted to decide an issue between his son and another, much less between himself and another. The entire structure of Daas Torah is endangered when they try to cover-up foul-ups of their own doing, whether on purpose or by accident. The Maharil Bloch Telzer Rosh Yeshiva Ztzl clearly states in his shmues entitled “Im rishonim k’malachim” that a Godol is often confronted with issues that call into play his own human emotions and frailties and as such may indeed become quite fallible. Rabbis Ginzberg and Horowitz et al who have publicly decried the actions or inactions of Gedolim on serious issues of Klal Yisroel have been castigated for doing so and their own Daas Torah has been called into question. Their problem seems to stem from their ahavas yisroel at the expense of rabbinical infrastructure.

    Informed Constent
    Informed Constent
    14 years ago

    For those of us who have a strong bond with a Rav and an open relationship with a posek – we will continue to do so. For those of you, the vast majority of VIN commentators who have no real personal connection to a gadol – you will continue to allow your opinions to be shaped by the media, blogs, headlines and ultimately yourselves. But Daas Baalim is “hepech” Daas Torah. Hepech can be translated to mean – “to turn over” or “to investigate” “to explore”. Perhaps it is not a statement that laymen opinions are the opposite that of our Rabbanim, rather that laymen can only be haughty enough to claim exploration of any one issue on which the Gedolim have ruled. We can never claim, however, to have come to final conclusion and call it Daas Torah.

    The right of Laymen is only lahafoch – to explore the rulings of Daas Torah.

    Daas Saychel Needed
    Daas Saychel Needed
    14 years ago

    Well done! It really doesn’t matter what Daas Torah or Daas Baal Habas say- what does matter is who has the Daas HaSachel. Rabbanim with an agenda are useless. Negas is negeas. As the old yiddish expression goes- sachel is not common.

    Informed Constent
    Informed Constent
    14 years ago

    Yes, it is unfortunate that for the latter, who have very little substantive relationships with unadulterated Torah, that the so called “major poskim” or “big time gedolim” do not have a central office to lobby, or a public relations agent to issue press releases. But that would just be to reach out to you. The vast majority of our very dedicated and ethically sound rabbonim are much to busy with guiding, encouraging, uplifting, serving and guarding the Jews that come to them. If you have a cynical view on Jewish Leadership, based on past failures, I suggest you follow the mishnah – “Aseh Lecha Rav”. YOU need to pursue them, not the other way around

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    monday morning quaterback

    anonymous
    anonymous
    14 years ago

    Mr. Pollard worked in a high security agency in Suitland , Maryland and did not have enough yishuv hadaas to keep his mouth shut instead he told co-workers that he worked for the Mossad. The Israeli embassy shut the door on him and the FBI arrested at the Israeli Embassy. Where I was born no Jew would have been hired in a secret government facility. Here in the U.S. some are living in a fools paradise believing that their direct line to the borei olam or their tzidkis will prevent widespread antisemitism. This also applies to the continuing nasty criticism of the President of the United States. What we need is a cheshbon hanefesh. By the way a baal habayis once pressed the Kopyczinitzer zeicher tzadik livrocho to say a davar torah and and after repeated insistence his reply was. My father was a Rebbe [REb Itsche Meir] and I am a Rebbe. My father did not teach me dvar torahs but to do gemilas chesed which he did par excellence to which I can testify and ahavas Yisroel. This axiom would avoid all the chillul hashem,

    sam
    sam
    14 years ago

    Wow! Unfortunately, over the past many years, I have sadly shaken my head many times, and sighed. I felt that our daas torah has let us down in many situations. And I don’t gleefully say that. It really saddens me. This article is really on target. What’s really sad, is that nothing seems to be changing on the daas torah’s part. Regretfully, the baalei batim are loosing faith and respect in them, and feel the need for change. But as a baalei bas, I feel that our opinion is not welcome nor appreciated. We are only good for our money. We live in sad times.

    Elliot Pasik
    Elliot Pasik
    14 years ago

    While the Jews shrei to himmel about child sex abuse actually occuring in our mosdos, we should read what the Novominsker Rebbe, the Rosh Agudas Yisroel, Rabbi Yaakov Perlow, had to say about daas Torah at Aguda’s Annual Dinner in May 2009 at the NY Hilton. There were about one dozen protesters holding signs on the street, and the story was reported in America and Israel. The quotation is from Agudath Israel’s press release:

    “…..the Rebbe chose the occasion of Agudas Yisroel’s 87th anniversary dinner last night to address two painful social issues facing the observant Jewish world at present. First, however, he reminded his listeners that what makes Agudas Yisroel special is that ‘it seeks the truth of Torah’ and discerns it in the understanding of Gedolei Torah. That determination to divine what is proper for Klal Yisroel ‘resists even well-meaning daas baalei batim,’ Rabbi Perlow proclaimed, and certainly ‘the bloggers and the picketers, presumptuous promoters’ of the notion that ‘they know better what is good for the Jews.'”

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    So whats your point Mr Ginsberg? Dont trust the Gedolim unless it makes sense? The whole point of Gedolim, obviously real Gedolim…Is that they see things clearer than meets the eye. This Article is stupid. If you want to argue who is a Gadol, ok…but to argue that Daas Baal Habayis is clearer than Daas Torah is ANTI TORAH! and ANTI JUDAISM!!!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    B”H there are beginning to be afew, like Rabbi Ginsburg, who fearlessly speak the emes. So, yes, throw these imposter “gedolim” (yeshiva-business owners) out…but where does our orphaned generation go from here? Our ears are yearning for a true cry of “mi lashem ailay” from an emesdike leader…

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    The author’s portrayal of daas baal habayis is an idealized view of a reasonably commonsensical, spiritually motivated person which in no way truly reflects the nature of standard baalei batim.

    In any case, this pooling of all complaints about some amorphous set of gedolei torah is too diverse and uncoordinated to carry true meaning. How many times have things been reported in the names of some gedolim when they have had nothing to do with the events.

    Daas torah lehepach midaas baal habayis is a torah principle and is eternal.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    What Torah are you talking about?Their whole avodah is an ego trip,they’re like little kids who are acting really holy.They put on this front as if they have everything figured out,but in reality they’re just to scared to admit that they have not a clue what Hashem really wants from us.In essence its these so called Rebbunim of ours that our keeping us in golus,because they stubbornly refuse to admit that they don’t know what to do,or have any idea how to get us out of golus.The Rebbunim dont have simple emunah that hashem really loves the world,and wants us to love ourselves.Even when the Rebbunim say things like”Hashem loves us so much”,its only in their minds not in their hearts.they DON’T believe what they’re really giving over.They tell us to learn more,to daven more,but what they’re really telling us is that hashem doesn’t want you unless you’re perfect,unless you learn 18 hours a day and have accepted upon yourself untold amounts of chumrahs.unless you accomplish all of the above you are guilted out of your happiness.even the ones that seem to be happy are only happy because they view themselves as being superior to others,it’s a happiness based on gaiveh and arrogance.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    14 years ago

    We are unfortunately a generation that appears to lack direction. No one has the nearly the stature of the previous generation. Funny, there have never been more people learning, yet, we are so short on leaders.