Jerusalem – Trains May Have Mehadrin Kosher Segregated Cars

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    Jerusalem – CityPass CEO Yair Naveh said Monday that he supports segregated men only and women only cars on the Jerusalem light rail train, which reporters and officials were invited to ride in a celebratory ceremony on Monday.

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    The train, being built by CityPass, is not yet operational, and is slated for launch in April 2011.

    “The train was built to serve everyone,” Naveh said, in response to a question on segregated cars. “I think it is required to create alternatives for everyone, and that option exists because of the train’s division into cars. It is not a problem to declare every third or fourth car a mehadrin (kosher) car.”

    The mehadrin cars would serve Jerusalem’s ultra-Orthodox population, who refrain from mixing genders.

    Rachel Azariya, a member of the Jerusalem city council and one of the opponents of the existing ‘mehadrin’ bus lines in Jerusalem (on which men sit in the front of the bus and women sit only in the back), criticized Naveh’s declaration, saying that “Naveh is apparently unaware of the high court ruling forbidding further segregation.”

    “Naveh was appointed to run a project – that doesn’t mean that he can tell people where to sit and where not to sit, nor does it mean that he knows anything about values and democracy,” Azariya said.

    The ceremonial ride was attended by Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat and Transportation Minister Yisrael Katz. Work on the light rail began eight years ago, and has since suffered endless delays and caused countless inconveniences to the residents of Jerusalem, and has become almost synonymous with management failure. The officials at the helm of the project now wish to display a positive facade to the residents of the city.

    “Fortunately, we can confidently say today that things are under control, there is a positive atmosphere and positive momentum,” Barkat said during the ceremony. “There are still hurdles, but we’re on the right path.”

    Katz added that “I have been called to calm down MKs, ministers and even prime ministers who live in Jerusalem more than once, and I have been asked about the project endlessly. We can now see the beginning of the end, or at least the end of the beginning.”

    Naveh said that “the train will promote growth in Jerusalem. We’re moving ahead with trials on the tracks… Residents of the city will be able to enjoy the train by next spring.”


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    39 Comments
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    avraham
    avraham
    13 years ago

    That’s great, I heard they are also planning to build segregated “men only” maternity wards so that the young newborn pure souls won’t see women at all.

    charliehall
    charliehall
    13 years ago

    Still awaiting the identity of the living posek who says that is it is asur to ride on mixed seating public transit. I’d write more but I have to run for a subway (with my sefer and audio shiur!).

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    This guy is an idiot. First, there is a court decision that says segregated seating on public transportation is illegal. Aside from that minor constraint, does he really believe there is a chiyuv to accomodate everyone’s hashkofah. What about those yidden who won’t travel anywhere without their goats. Should we have a special car for yidden with goats and other farm animals (like they do in India and other third-world countries). Reb Moshe, Z’tl, said it was ok to use the mixed gender public transit systems in NYC. If its ok for him than its ok for these chraeidi lunatics or otherwise, they can walk.

    favish
    favish
    13 years ago

    the posek is ‘u ike darkai achrina rasha hu’ (mes. sanhedrin, paskuned in rambam and S’U) but since you belong to …movement that have no compunction of women wearing pants (im not interested in you flimzy excuses), go mixed swimming etc o you dont (want to) understand

    shredready
    shredready
    13 years ago

    calling it mehadrin (kosher) car is wrong since it has nothing to do with halacha. maybe they can call it Wahabi Judism car

    13 years ago

    Will never happen. Apart from violating the basic law, Israel and its citizens will never allow themselves to descend to allowing that kind of naked discrimination not only because its wrong, verging on evil, but because of all the opprobrium it would bring — you think Israelis, as they travel the world, want to be identified in the same category as Iran and Saudi Arabia?

    rent is expensive
    rent is expensive
    13 years ago

    Wow!!!
    They actually put the light rail in use
    Didn’t they say that the ‘gesher hamitarim’ couldn’t hold up a train? And Nir Barkat even entertained the idea of taking the bridge back down?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    I would ignore most of what Favish says. He has a track record of making up his own poskim and misquoting others (such as his reference above to maseches sanhedrim which has nothing to do with mixed gender seating in any context). He also has consistently asserted that women in yiddeshkeit are to be subordinated to their husband and fathers and other nareshkeit that has no basis in halacha so why would you expect him not to support having special subway cars for his chevrah.

    Normal
    Normal
    13 years ago

    Sounds crazy but if it doesn’t inconvenience anyone then why not.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    If the men don’t want to ride with women, they should get their own private bus. Public funds should not be used to engage in discrimination against jewish women based on some flimsy halachic concerns about which there much debate and no concensus. We can find a “gadol” on both sides of the “separation” issue. Also, since the Charedi generally don’t work, why do they need to take the subway anywhere. They generally can walk to their local shul, beis medrash and welfare office.

    13 years ago

    To # 4: Hey Favish: It seems to me that a woman wearing pants is dressed more modestly than one wearing a skirt – even though that is not the minhag. If there is place in the Torah or in any halachic law that mentions women in pants, specifically, please point it out to me. If you lived where I do and the winter temperatures often dip to 40 below zero, you may understand why many women wear pants. Even one of Chabad rebbetzins has been seen wearing them in the frigid days of winter. I don’t know if you have a wife, but if you do and you lived here, you might not be such a chochem on this topic.

    favish
    favish
    13 years ago

    # 8 first 2 lines it shows your am-haratzes in learning a piece of gemmorah and understanding the halacha derived from it…The same reason de gemorrah says pertaining to the subject over there is applicable over here.Can you tell you what subject the gemmorah discusse there?

    favish
    favish
    13 years ago

    YEh, yeh, make up your own stories a chabad wife wore pants…

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    Many chabad women wear pants in very cold weather outside of NYC. (But from your other comments, you obviously have never traveled outside of BP nor do you have any understanding of women). Please don’t embarrass yourself further during chodesh elul. Instead, reach out for some help and maybe you will get a better understanding of the special role of women under daas torah.

    favish
    favish
    13 years ago

    yes yes , i lived and have been in plenty cold freezing countries and i havnt seen ehrliche tzniousdige yiddishe techter weer pants. of course, im not talking women from ‘ahem’ your circles

    favish
    favish
    13 years ago

    #14 … by the way i’m still waiting for you to tell which gemorrah im refering to in #4

    Shmuel
    Shmuel
    13 years ago

    #14 , from your posts on this and other threads I noticed that you are particularly comfortable with lying. You always have stories, to convenient to be true, to back up whatever outlandish opinions you choose to spit out. I don’t know you, but have no doubt that you are a very unpleasant person. I can easily imagine the drool on your face when you try to make somebody believe you and they don’t. Bas Yisroel wearing pants? Come on, you can come up with better lie.

    favish
    favish
    13 years ago

    #17 reb shmuel, yasher kochachem. i wish you’d take over ‘vda mah shetashuv leapikorsos’ you think i need this, but we cant let such pure apikorses let go unanswered as ‘shanu mines deauso lamshichai abastrie’ this guys posts all over especially VIN article AUG16, 8:32 am, what outright hate and kefira he sputh forth and the satmar article what derogatory way he refers to the holy satmar rebbe tzadik hador etc etc now he may be a follower of another gadol hador but toto …im not worried, he’ll get his just desserts ‘is din veis dayan’, see my posting there (satmar #30 ). i wish milhouse would be back he did a good job on ‘veda mah shtoshiv…’ hope everything ok by him

    13 years ago

    oh please….

    Goodilan
    Goodilan
    13 years ago

    Favish, Have you ever heard the expression “Never wrestle with a pig, you just get dirty and the pig likes it.”

    favish
    favish
    13 years ago

    #11ok, so where in the torah do we derive women should not wear pants. (lets say the holy gedolim made a mistake, c’v afre lepi) just point out which pasuk and then say it means somethig else

    favish
    favish
    13 years ago

    #20 see #18 the reason why i post..anyway the ssue is not what i am or he is . if it makes him happy to throw all those adj. at me ‘es barirt mein linke peyah..’.but a single memreh, din he didnt refute yet ….but a reform christian is not learned in the torah (S’U)so he just come with empty retorts..

    Shmuel
    Shmuel
    13 years ago

    Favish, thank you for your kind words #14 . I did look through the thread you pointed, and I remember it from when it was new. I will just add: my wife grew up in Montreal, I have family there as well as in Toronto. This side of tundra, you will not find harsher winters than in Quebec. Yet I have NEVER seen a Bas Yisroel in pants. Anybody who knows ANYTHING about Jewish life would know that this just wouldn’t happen. But the ligner who posts as “Says” has probably never seen a Bas Yisroel. Yet there is never shortage of made up stories that are are muchan and conveniently at hand to illustrate his ridiculous opinions. He is lying through his filthy decaying modern orthodox teeth. It’s just that this time he made up a lie so clumsy that he himself in retrospect wishes that he could take back, so I called him on it.

    Shmuel
    Shmuel
    13 years ago

    Goodilan #20 , my father o”h told me: Never argue with an idiot; after first two minutes, nobody will be able to tell the difference. I like your moshal just as much. I do tend to ignore ligners and ignoramuses such as “Says”, but at my previous note to Favish for an explanation of why I decided to call him on his outlandish lie this time.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    Favish, shmuel etc — your posts show that you have real hate for other people. If I didn’t know any better, I’d think you were committing the aveira of sinus chinam 😉

    Shmuel
    Shmuel
    13 years ago

    #26 : You don’t know any better. Neither do you know any worse. You just don’t know.

    favish
    favish
    13 years ago

    #24 ..actually the gemorrah darshens this on pasuk in mishli26 ,4 ‘al tan kesil keuvalto pen tishvah lo gam oot’ and then in mishli 26, 5 ‘aneu kesil keivalto peh yiyah chochim beinov.’ so the gemmorah say the 1st is bedoverim bealma the latter bedvirei torah’ so bedivrei torah one cannot reamain silent (shabbos 30b middle of wide lines . see my reasonse in #18

    favish
    favish
    13 years ago

    #25if you would know of the mitzva of ‘lo sasuru achrei eineichem ‘ what it involved ..thn you could decuided what is right or not basedon the mitvah and part of it is the gemmorrah sanhed i poined out

    13 years ago

    Reply to favish Says:
    #11ok, so where in the torah do we derive women should not wear pants. (lets say the holy gedolim made a mistake, c’v afre lepi) just point out which pasuk and then say it means somethig else

    According to the rav that I asked, the topic of women and pants is associated with the gemara that discusses that a woman should not ride a horse in the manner that men do. The reason is, that the physical separation of the legs should not be apparent above the knees.

    favish
    favish
    13 years ago

    #26 since you dont believe in torah she bal peh (as a reform etc, not even in the torah all together, but lets not get in to that. see VIN article Aug 16, 8:32 am mt posts)so where is it mentioned the issur of s’inas chinom’..oh, aha, when it suits you, all of a sudden your a ‘chossid’ of the torah??

    favish
    favish
    13 years ago

    #30 can you give me idea what rav you asked , where does he belong (MO and down i dont accept)…anyway ..cue last weeks torah reading…yes, i know you’ll come with a certain heter of the bach in yorah deyah ,on that we’ll say ..your crowd are not yiri hashem and would desecrate the mitzvah of ‘lo yiyah kli gaver al ishah….’ they didnt ask a sheileh and were paskened to do as the bach ..your crowd wear pants just like they ignore other issur doireisa liks mixed swimm., dancing etc but someone found a ‘bach’ for your convinience. anyway if you have to ask such elementary thing your ‘rah-bbi shows what total ignoramus you are and you rabble your un- dass torah .belittling the holy divrei yoel, mocking the issue of separate genders on busses when you dont know what are the issues involved, mocking ‘rabbinical dogma’ (remember the article, kutchi kutci?)etc etc

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    13 years ago

    To “Favish”.

    We also miss Milhouse. At least he was literate and was able to disagree on matters of halacha in a comprehensible way replete with humor and sarcasm. You epitomize all the stereotypes of a dysfunctional hareidi yid who is allowed to sneak on to the internet to rant at those MO deviates whose understanding of torah is different from yours. And yes, I’ve seen frum women (who you call a “baas yisroel”) wear pants in really severe weather. But clearly, no “baas yisroel” would be hanging around with you.

    13 years ago

    Favish, I erred when I posted your name in my response it was a response to #11 who is also an anonymous “says”. So we are on the same page on this! My Rav, probably like yours, does not play word games with Torah and Shas. He was telling me the source for disallowing women to wear pants. He pointed out that the fact that some who claim to be Orthodox say there is a heter, is outright nonsense. As is the mistaken idea that covering a woman’s hair is optional. He is a musmach of Ner Israel. [I was asking out of curiosity].

    (NOTE: when you leave the screen name blank, the post just puts “says” as the screen name instead of anonymous. It’s a confusing glitch)

    charliehall
    charliehall
    13 years ago

    #4 ,

    I asked for a living posek. You don’t have one. It is mutar to ride on a public transit vehicle with mixed seating according to all opinions.

    charliehall
    charliehall
    13 years ago

    No proof can be brought from a gemara regarding horseback riding because stirrups had not yet made it to the Jewish world by the time of the gemara. That completely changed the way people rode — men and women.

    As I have pointed out, Religious Zionist kibbutzim consider pants to be mutar. Your rabbis can argue with their rabbis but you can’t write them out of Orthodoxy. (Modern trouser-style pants are only about 200 years old and were adopted as a style of dress by men and women at the same time, so you can’t say that they are “beged ish”.) Regarding womens’ hair covering, I’ve found three published opinions — two Sefardi, one Ashkenazi — that say that hair covering is at best a minhag. Those are definitely minority opinions but again, they ARE Orthodox opinions.

    favish
    favish
    13 years ago

    #37 you dont seem to understand the underlying issuse ..its not a question of ‘ausser’ or’ mutter’and i wont elaborate (i.m afraid ‘says’ will criticize mah spellin’ and mah grammah’) see #4 ..

    13 years ago

    Favish: Do you need a job? You seem bored

    yaaqovk
    yaaqovk
    13 years ago

    Will anyone not feeling the personal need for segregated cars be in any way, shape, or form financially subsidizing them — via taxes or any other means?