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Philadelphia, PA - Leading Charedi Posek Says 'Metitza' Should Not Be Done Orally

Published on: March 28, 2012 10:15 AM
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FILE - Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetzky(R) with Rabbi Yaakov Perlow  Novominsker Rebbe. Shimon GifterPhiladelphia, PA - With several recent cases of neonatal herpes putting the custom of metitza b’peh back in the proverbial spotlight as previously reported on VIN News, a prominent rabbi has spoken out strongly against the custom saying that if oral suction puts babies at risk then the practice should not be performed.

In a phone interview  with The Jewish Week, Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetzky, the rosh yeshiva and co-founder of the Talmudical Yeshiva of Philadephia said that to the best of his knowledge, metitza is done using a sterile pipette, in order to prevent any contact between the Mohel’s mouth and the wound.

When asked if there were those who believe that metitza cannot be performed using a tube, R’ Kaminetzky stating unequivocally, “Nobody holds likes that” and expressed disbelief when told that there are rabbis who insist that metitza must be done by mouth saying, “I don’t think there is any response to them.”

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R’ Kaminetzky expressed surprise that any Mohel would perform metitzah b’peh, given the links between the practice and transmission of certain diseases to infants, saying that under the circumstances, performing metitzah b’peh would run counter to halacha.

“Chas V’shalom, if [children are] getting sick [from oral suction, you] wouldn’t do it,” under Jewish law, ruled R’ Kaminetzky, saying that since the act of doing metzitza via a sterile tube is completely risk free, the suctioning should clearly be performed in this fashion.

R’ David Niederman, executive director and president of the United Jewish Organizations of Williamsburg, insisted that the September death of an infant was completely unrelated to metitza b’peh, telling The Jewish Week that the custom has never caused either death or an infection.

“We will continue to make metzitzah b’peh,” said R’ Niederman.

R’ Kaminetzky is a senior member of the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah of Agudath Israel of America and serves on the board of Torah Umesorah, the Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation, Chinuch Atmai and the Association for Jewish Outreach Professionals.  One of the most prominent rabbonim outside of Israel, his opinion is frequently sought on a wide number of topics.



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1

 Mar 28, 2012 at 10:18 AM ehrliche-yid613 Says:

Finally someone speaks out saying what makes complete sense thank you Rav!

2

 Mar 28, 2012 at 10:25 AM Justin Says:

If there is no basis to doing it with the mouth then where does the thing "metzitza bpeh" come from?

3

 Mar 28, 2012 at 10:31 AM NY1 Says:

The good Rabbi is gonna have to retract his stament after the terror mafia ASKUNIM will threaten him. give it a few days.

4

 Mar 28, 2012 at 10:32 AM cp123 Says:

kol hakavod to rav kaminetzky. he will get a lot of flack for this.

5

 Mar 28, 2012 at 10:35 AM 2smart Says:

“Chas V’shalom, if [children are] getting sick [from oral suction, you] wouldn’t do it,” under Jewish law, ruled R’ Kaminetzky, ...................

note: only "IF"................... no one thinks different even satmar

6

 Mar 28, 2012 at 10:36 AM ChachoMoe Says:

*suprised*

Fact - The very issue if its to be done b'peh has been on the debate for the past century plus, and most poskim were for it, as it is clearly stated in Sdei Chemed vol VIII. The only thing that might have changed is the risk and knowledge, etc.

7

 Mar 28, 2012 at 10:37 AM Love Davka Says:

Rav Kaminetzky shlit"a sees the reality. Putting one's mouth on an open wound is a very potent way to transmit disease. This is especially harmful to a baby, whose immune system is weak. Babies have died from this.

8

 Mar 28, 2012 at 10:50 AM Anonymous Says:

I was a a teenager back in the UK in the 60s . The Satmar Rebbe ZTL was visiting London and at someone’s home the issue of Metitzah b’peh came up. There was a certain hospital which forbade it and insisted that only a sterile tube be used . At that time most Brisin were performed in hospitals as mothers stayed more than eight days after giving birth .

The tzadik ZTL clearly stated that in a case where the mohel cannot preform metitzah b’peh the Bris should rather be postponed till mother and baby returned home , and that the Mohel should preform Metitzah b’peh even if it meant postponing the Bris. .

9

 Mar 28, 2012 at 10:52 AM Boochie Says:

Doesn’t Agudath Israel of America support metzitzah b’peh? If a remember correctly they were at the forefront of condemning Rabbi Tendler for taking a position just like this – I guess we will have to see how this plays out

10

 Mar 28, 2012 at 11:00 AM Jew from Jewland Says:

for over 3000 years all Jews made Metzitza be'peh with full trust in Hashem. Between the time of Avraham Avinu and our generation, Trillions & trillions of jewish kids were geyidisht in the same way & No one ever ever said that the mouth of a Mohel can cause an infection.
Also todays time are over 100,000 jewish newborn babies geyidisht the same way and less then 1 out of 100,000 are even taken in such question.
Imunizations that is required by government has a much higher rate of risking a side effect.

11

 Mar 28, 2012 at 11:05 AM MAYERFREUND Says:

The mohel that made the metzitza b'peh for the baby that passed away about 3 weeks ago. was tested for herpes was found to be negative. so it did not come from metzitza b'peh. why don't they investigate and stop it where it came from ?

12

 Mar 28, 2012 at 11:06 AM Anonymous Says:

Unfortunately, the headline is misleading and the alleged statement by Rabbi Kaminetzky is consistent with his pattern of other ambiguous,unclear, and double meaning statements he has made in the past on other important issues. Here is what he should have said, "In light of our modern,scientific, understanding of microbiology, It is forbidden by Halacha to endanger the life of the Rach HaNimol by performing Direct Metzitza BePEH without a sterile pipette acting as a sanitary barrier. Period,End of Story.

13

 Mar 28, 2012 at 11:07 AM Secular Says:

With all due respect to Rav Kamanetzky...-he's NOT a POSEK

And though I fundamentally agree with the Rav, I applaud his courage (?) in taking a stand on this issue.

However I feel there needs to be some clarification:

The Gemara and the Poskim ALL agree that following the Cutting and retraction (Chituch and Periah) there needs to be a curative measure done. In the times of the Gemarah it was metzitza, (sucking) or SQUEEZING of the blood to remove it so as to prevent infection. Traditionally it was done by mouth because it was believed suctioning would remove the blood adequately. The Mekubalim subsequently attached mystical significance to the act of Metzitza by mouth.

This is NOT what is meant by 'Hatafas Dam Bris' in which there is a requirement that there be blood during the Bris. This is usually satisfied with the cutting of the foreskin.

The question is: What is the practice in Yeshiva Philadelphia when one of the Kollel men makes a BRIS? Furthermore What was done to Rav Kaminetzky grandchildren? did they have Metztza bePeh? or will this be another issue where leniencies and dispensations are for everyone else except the posek who is always machmir..?

14

 Mar 28, 2012 at 11:13 AM NY1 Says:

Reply to #13  
Secular Says:

With all due respect to Rav Kamanetzky...-he's NOT a POSEK

And though I fundamentally agree with the Rav, I applaud his courage (?) in taking a stand on this issue.

However I feel there needs to be some clarification:

The Gemara and the Poskim ALL agree that following the Cutting and retraction (Chituch and Periah) there needs to be a curative measure done. In the times of the Gemarah it was metzitza, (sucking) or SQUEEZING of the blood to remove it so as to prevent infection. Traditionally it was done by mouth because it was believed suctioning would remove the blood adequately. The Mekubalim subsequently attached mystical significance to the act of Metzitza by mouth.

This is NOT what is meant by 'Hatafas Dam Bris' in which there is a requirement that there be blood during the Bris. This is usually satisfied with the cutting of the foreskin.

The question is: What is the practice in Yeshiva Philadelphia when one of the Kollel men makes a BRIS? Furthermore What was done to Rav Kaminetzky grandchildren? did they have Metztza bePeh? or will this be another issue where leniencies and dispensations are for everyone else except the posek who is always machmir..?

Rav Kaminesky is a Posek, Niderman is NOT.. he is a Politician..

15

 Mar 28, 2012 at 11:20 AM Moshd Says:

Reply to #13  
Secular Says:

With all due respect to Rav Kamanetzky...-he's NOT a POSEK

And though I fundamentally agree with the Rav, I applaud his courage (?) in taking a stand on this issue.

However I feel there needs to be some clarification:

The Gemara and the Poskim ALL agree that following the Cutting and retraction (Chituch and Periah) there needs to be a curative measure done. In the times of the Gemarah it was metzitza, (sucking) or SQUEEZING of the blood to remove it so as to prevent infection. Traditionally it was done by mouth because it was believed suctioning would remove the blood adequately. The Mekubalim subsequently attached mystical significance to the act of Metzitza by mouth.

This is NOT what is meant by 'Hatafas Dam Bris' in which there is a requirement that there be blood during the Bris. This is usually satisfied with the cutting of the foreskin.

The question is: What is the practice in Yeshiva Philadelphia when one of the Kollel men makes a BRIS? Furthermore What was done to Rav Kaminetzky grandchildren? did they have Metztza bePeh? or will this be another issue where leniencies and dispensations are for everyone else except the posek who is always machmir..?

As soon as Rav Kamanetzky will say something you personally like your gonna name him the Gadol Hador..

Any Rav That says something to that person's liking, he gets the stamp Of Gadol Hador.. if he says something that is not likable, he gets a stamp of a nobody.. this is how most of the Chasidic community has been operating in past 20 years.

Every Rav has the right to state his opinion.. and they all have the right to debate. The Torah and halacha is not copyright to Williamsburg only.

16

 Mar 28, 2012 at 11:16 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Jew from Jewland Says:

for over 3000 years all Jews made Metzitza be'peh with full trust in Hashem. Between the time of Avraham Avinu and our generation, Trillions & trillions of jewish kids were geyidisht in the same way & No one ever ever said that the mouth of a Mohel can cause an infection.
Also todays time are over 100,000 jewish newborn babies geyidisht the same way and less then 1 out of 100,000 are even taken in such question.
Imunizations that is required by government has a much higher rate of risking a side effect.

When you use hyperbole like, trillions and trillions of Jews, you lose ALL credibility. The total number of Jews that have lived through all of history probably numbers no more than in the hundreds of millions.

17

 Mar 28, 2012 at 11:23 AM shlomozalman Says:

I trust that Rabbi Kaminetsky upped his home insurance coverage. They will get him and they are vicious.

18

 Mar 28, 2012 at 11:23 AM לא עלינו Says:

The Rabbi is very well versed in other aspects of Hashkofe and we all admire him a lot but when it comes to הלכה lets not forget he is a Rosh Yeshiva NOT A RAV so please Rabbi stay away from something u have knowledge

19

 Mar 28, 2012 at 11:23 AM UyVey Says:

First let us see a letter from rabbi kaminsky-- i do not believe the jewish week, they probably just misconstrued his words.
If r' shmuel did in fact hold like this we would have heard about it before..

20

 Mar 28, 2012 at 11:24 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
Secular Says:

With all due respect to Rav Kamanetzky...-he's NOT a POSEK

And though I fundamentally agree with the Rav, I applaud his courage (?) in taking a stand on this issue.

However I feel there needs to be some clarification:

The Gemara and the Poskim ALL agree that following the Cutting and retraction (Chituch and Periah) there needs to be a curative measure done. In the times of the Gemarah it was metzitza, (sucking) or SQUEEZING of the blood to remove it so as to prevent infection. Traditionally it was done by mouth because it was believed suctioning would remove the blood adequately. The Mekubalim subsequently attached mystical significance to the act of Metzitza by mouth.

This is NOT what is meant by 'Hatafas Dam Bris' in which there is a requirement that there be blood during the Bris. This is usually satisfied with the cutting of the foreskin.

The question is: What is the practice in Yeshiva Philadelphia when one of the Kollel men makes a BRIS? Furthermore What was done to Rav Kaminetzky grandchildren? did they have Metztza bePeh? or will this be another issue where leniencies and dispensations are for everyone else except the posek who is always machmir..?

excuse me with all due respect harav hagaon rav shmuel kamenetsky is most definitly a posek and has been paskening halacha for over 60 years
wont even bother commenting on the rest of your points since as you point out your much more knoweldgable then even harav kamentsky shlita

21

 Mar 28, 2012 at 11:35 AM meshigener Says:

Calm down!
Rabbi Kaminetzky is a gadol hador and a great posek and I believe that he didn"t just say what is mentioned in this article without thinking it through and discussing it with other great rabonim and poskim of this generation.
Please be respectful in your comments.

22

 Mar 28, 2012 at 11:39 AM concerned_Jew Says:

Great. And I was wondering about the practice if we are forbidden to drink blood how could the mohel have done this anyway in the past? Let the suction be done by a steralized tube, that is the answer in a world where germs are everywhere and babies are especially suseptible to infections. I think we have a solution here. Thank you Rabbi Kamenetsky!

23

 Mar 28, 2012 at 11:41 AM Wondering Says:

I have one big question to all, why wouldn't a mohel go test himself every few months to make sure he is not infected with any disease that could C"V harm the baby by the bris? The same torah that says we need to do a bris on our kinderlach also states that we have to protect our life.

24

 Mar 28, 2012 at 11:49 AM Moishe Says:

Wow what intolerance and chutzpa!! This is how you speak about a gadol?

25

 Mar 28, 2012 at 11:49 AM kingizzy Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

I was a a teenager back in the UK in the 60s . The Satmar Rebbe ZTL was visiting London and at someone’s home the issue of Metitzah b’peh came up. There was a certain hospital which forbade it and insisted that only a sterile tube be used . At that time most Brisin were performed in hospitals as mothers stayed more than eight days after giving birth .

The tzadik ZTL clearly stated that in a case where the mohel cannot preform metitzah b’peh the Bris should rather be postponed till mother and baby returned home , and that the Mohel should preform Metitzah b’peh even if it meant postponing the Bris. .

I find what you are saying very very hard to believe!!! Anyway I love R Kaminetzky, He is like his father was. Very honest , very straight. Not scared of what is politically correct!!
Kol Hakavod!!

26

 Mar 28, 2012 at 11:56 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
Justin Says:

If there is no basis to doing it with the mouth then where does the thing "metzitza bpeh" come from?

בכל הדורות נהגו המוהלים לבצע את המציצה בפה, היינו המוהל מוצץ בפיו דם ממקום פצע המילה. אמנם מציצה בפה דווקא הוא דבר שאינו מפורש בתלמוד, אך כי יש מהפוסקים שדייקו בלשון הגמרא, שהכוונה בפה אכן מציצה בפה מוזכרת בפירוש במקורות הקבלה, וכן כתבו כמה ראשונים
---------------------------
שבלי הלקט הל' מילה סי' ח; ספר העיטור שער ג, הל' מילה ח"ד; מחזור ויטרי הל' מילה סי' תקה; אבודרהם הל' ברכות ריש שער ט; רמ"א יו"ד רסה א;. וראה באריכות בשד"ח מערכת מילה, קונט' המציצה. וראה בשו"ת באר משה ח"ב סי' פ, שהביא דברי הגאונים ר' יצחק אלחנן ספקטור, ר' חיים עוזר גרודזנסקי, ור' אליעזר סילבר, שבמקומותיהם נהגו כל החרדים למצוץ בפה דווקא

27

 Mar 28, 2012 at 12:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
NY1 Says:

Rav Kaminesky is a Posek, Niderman is NOT.. he is a Politician..

Not every Gadol is a Posek. Rav Kaminetsky is known as a Gadol, but not as a Posek in the sense Rav Eliyashiv, Rav Belsky, Rav Yechezkel Roth, Rav Wosner, etc. are known as Poskim. Rabbi Niderman is neither a Gadol nor a Posek, but he is reflecting the Daas Torah of the Poskim that his community follows. #8 quoted the Satmar Rov, zy"a, who was considered to be Posek for his community, as is recognized as a Posek in other communities as well.

However, is it possible that Rav Kaminetsky only said this because he knew who he was speaking to (i.e. the Jewish Week)? Also, he said "if" it is causing deaths. Satmar would also recognize that "if" it was really causing these deaths it would be assur under all of the circumstances that would cause death. The evidence is not clear enough that this is really the cause of these deaths. It is more propaganda against the Haredi community than real science.

28

 Mar 28, 2012 at 12:02 PM Avi Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

I was a a teenager back in the UK in the 60s . The Satmar Rebbe ZTL was visiting London and at someone’s home the issue of Metitzah b’peh came up. There was a certain hospital which forbade it and insisted that only a sterile tube be used . At that time most Brisin were performed in hospitals as mothers stayed more than eight days after giving birth .

The tzadik ZTL clearly stated that in a case where the mohel cannot preform metitzah b’peh the Bris should rather be postponed till mother and baby returned home , and that the Mohel should preform Metitzah b’peh even if it meant postponing the Bris. .

You mean to write that the Satmar Rav said to violate a D'ohreisa in order to fulfill a Minhag?

(Technically, it would be Shev V'Al Ta'aseh, but still...)

29

 Mar 28, 2012 at 12:12 PM RN Says:

Reply to #23  
Wondering Says:

I have one big question to all, why wouldn't a mohel go test himself every few months to make sure he is not infected with any disease that could C"V harm the baby by the bris? The same torah that says we need to do a bris on our kinderlach also states that we have to protect our life.

testing an individual for any disease is not foolproof ever for a myriad of reasons. In terms of herpes, the virus is ALWAYS in the body once it has been acquired. It may be dormant at times and there may be no signs of cold sore or impending cold sore, but the virus is there. Therefore it is impossible to know if the mohel is actually contagious at the time. Cold sore to skin contact (including prodromal symptoms meaning itching, tingling etc.. at the side of the mouth before a cold sore is actually present) is what passes the virus.

But more importantly, as a generality, the mouth is full of bacteria and pathogens that no one gets tested for on a regular basis. An open, raw, bleeding wound is the MOST communicable in terms of receiving disease, pathogens, bacteria.

Metzizah was done bpeh thousands of years ago bc that was all they knew. If you think babies did not die them from MBP you are deluding yourself, but we have no records.
Anything that can so easily transfer ANYTHING that can potentially harm the life of a baby is against halacha - period. Why some can not accept this concept with or without a rav's input is beyond me.

30

 Mar 28, 2012 at 12:25 PM Noneofurbusiness Says:

What ever happned to writing Halachic T'shevas? Did Reb Moshe disseminate his opinions through the media? (and the Jewish week at that) Did RebYacov do telephone interviews? Maybe a press conference is a good idea?
Or evern better maybe Rabonim should be using Twitter to let the Oilom know of the newest chumra or the latest ban? There is a lot to keep up with these days. Just wondering are concerts and circuses mutar this chol hamoed?

31

 Mar 28, 2012 at 12:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
Secular Says:

With all due respect to Rav Kamanetzky...-he's NOT a POSEK

And though I fundamentally agree with the Rav, I applaud his courage (?) in taking a stand on this issue.

However I feel there needs to be some clarification:

The Gemara and the Poskim ALL agree that following the Cutting and retraction (Chituch and Periah) there needs to be a curative measure done. In the times of the Gemarah it was metzitza, (sucking) or SQUEEZING of the blood to remove it so as to prevent infection. Traditionally it was done by mouth because it was believed suctioning would remove the blood adequately. The Mekubalim subsequently attached mystical significance to the act of Metzitza by mouth.

This is NOT what is meant by 'Hatafas Dam Bris' in which there is a requirement that there be blood during the Bris. This is usually satisfied with the cutting of the foreskin.

The question is: What is the practice in Yeshiva Philadelphia when one of the Kollel men makes a BRIS? Furthermore What was done to Rav Kaminetzky grandchildren? did they have Metztza bePeh? or will this be another issue where leniencies and dispensations are for everyone else except the posek who is always machmir..?

It is like the Wedding Takonas - They only apply to other people.

32

 Mar 28, 2012 at 12:30 PM Anonymous Says:

I assume that the practice of metitzah b’peh is not done on adult male converts. I would be screaming mad if it had been done to me when I converted (and it wasn't), and I'm sure I would have heard from other converts if it had been done to them. So if it is not required for converts, why should it be required for an infant?

33

 Mar 28, 2012 at 12:36 PM anonymous Says:

In Vienna bal peh was not allowed and the rabbonim were great talmidi chachumim

34

 Mar 28, 2012 at 12:40 PM Secular Says:

Talk is cheap.

Does Rav Kaminetzky preside over Bris that are done without Metzitza bePeh?
What is done in the Yeshiva Philadelphia??

# 15, Do you read?

I said, I agree with Rav Kaminetzky but he is NOT known as a Posek.

What other Pesakim has Rav kaminetzky given??

ץראה םע התע םיבר-ןה

םידהיתמ ץראה ימעמ םיברו

35

 Mar 28, 2012 at 01:16 PM MeirYaakov Says:

Reply to #2  
Justin Says:

If there is no basis to doing it with the mouth then where does the thing "metzitza bpeh" come from?

I am of course not a posek (ask your Rav), but it does not seem to me that Rav Kaminetzky says there is no basis to doing it with the mouth. In particular, it seems to me that metzitza with the sterile glass tube is still metziza b'peh.

The mohel uses his mouth (peh) to suck (limtzotz) through the glass tube, hence metzizah b'peh. This way just avoids the sakanah for the baby since germs won't go from the mohel to the baby (they could go from the baby to the mohel, but the mohel is an adult and his immune system will be better able to deal with it than an 8-day old).

36

 Mar 28, 2012 at 01:40 PM ABlogger Says:

Seems to me that R’ Kaminetzky’s words were twisted.

According to The Jewish Week article, R’ Kaminetzky was asked about believes against the “validity” of milah done with metzitza thru a tube. His answer, of course, was that no one questions the validity of such milah ex post facto.

This is not the same as saying that no one holds that metzitza should not be done thru a tube l’chetchilah.

Indeed, regardless of his Daas Torah on whether metzitza should be done thru a tube or by mouth, such renowned Gadol as R’ Kaminetzky is not so ignorant to the well known p’sak of many Gadolim that metzitza may only be by mouth.

37

 Mar 28, 2012 at 01:45 PM Samson660 Says:

Reply to #15  
Moshd Says:

As soon as Rav Kamanetzky will say something you personally like your gonna name him the Gadol Hador..

Any Rav That says something to that person's liking, he gets the stamp Of Gadol Hador.. if he says something that is not likable, he gets a stamp of a nobody.. this is how most of the Chasidic community has been operating in past 20 years.

Every Rav has the right to state his opinion.. and they all have the right to debate. The Torah and halacha is not copyright to Williamsburg only.

this is how most of the Chasidic community has been operating in past 20 years.

More Motzee Shaim Rah conversation (Lashon Harah). I suggest that you keep your comments to be accordance to Jewish Halachic vies. As you wrote " The Torah and halacha is not copyright to Williamsburg only. ” but from your works one could take that that is the only place where it operates!! Guard yourself..... Chaim S ..Toronto

38

 Mar 28, 2012 at 01:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

When you use hyperbole like, trillions and trillions of Jews, you lose ALL credibility. The total number of Jews that have lived through all of history probably numbers no more than in the hundreds of millions.

if you calculate the numbers of the Medrash of how many jews lived in the city "Elexandria she'll Mitzrayim" and other areas after the Chorban Habayis. you'l proof that you are wrong

39

 Mar 28, 2012 at 01:58 PM One Sided Says:

Kol Hkoveed Rav Kaminetzky, but how can we say “Nobody holds likes that”?

40

 Mar 28, 2012 at 02:08 PM ConcernedMember Says:

Reply to #10  
Jew from Jewland Says:

for over 3000 years all Jews made Metzitza be'peh with full trust in Hashem. Between the time of Avraham Avinu and our generation, Trillions & trillions of jewish kids were geyidisht in the same way & No one ever ever said that the mouth of a Mohel can cause an infection.
Also todays time are over 100,000 jewish newborn babies geyidisht the same way and less then 1 out of 100,000 are even taken in such question.
Imunizations that is required by government has a much higher rate of risking a side effect.

False. MBP has NOT been done as long as Bris Milah has been done. MBP was NOT part of the tradition since Avraham Avinu. MBP is first recorded in the times of the Gemara, which is significantly later.

41

 Mar 28, 2012 at 02:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Not that I have any particular right to make a comment as I am not from the charedi community and clearly my values must be skewed. (I posted a few times on this topic and my comments were not shared). I must remark that the idea of a suction from a mouth to either the genitalia or even to a tube is remarkably unorthodox in terms of simple biological cleanliness. If there is a suction procedure indicated, why not just get a rubber bulb and add it to a glass tube and then apply suction in a clean and efficient way. Is there spiritual issues I am missing? Let do something that does not partake a negative light to our communties. When I had not yet heard of this procedure, I came to being told about it from the antisemities who hate our faith. I was appalled at first and assumed that this type of suction by a mans mouth to the genitalia was completely fabricated by the antisemities to make certain that the jews were portrayed in a horrible light.

42

 Mar 28, 2012 at 02:30 PM ShmuelG Says:

Reply to #13  
Secular Says:

With all due respect to Rav Kamanetzky...-he's NOT a POSEK

And though I fundamentally agree with the Rav, I applaud his courage (?) in taking a stand on this issue.

However I feel there needs to be some clarification:

The Gemara and the Poskim ALL agree that following the Cutting and retraction (Chituch and Periah) there needs to be a curative measure done. In the times of the Gemarah it was metzitza, (sucking) or SQUEEZING of the blood to remove it so as to prevent infection. Traditionally it was done by mouth because it was believed suctioning would remove the blood adequately. The Mekubalim subsequently attached mystical significance to the act of Metzitza by mouth.

This is NOT what is meant by 'Hatafas Dam Bris' in which there is a requirement that there be blood during the Bris. This is usually satisfied with the cutting of the foreskin.

The question is: What is the practice in Yeshiva Philadelphia when one of the Kollel men makes a BRIS? Furthermore What was done to Rav Kaminetzky grandchildren? did they have Metztza bePeh? or will this be another issue where leniencies and dispensations are for everyone else except the posek who is always machmir..?

"What is the practice in Yeshiva Philadelphia when one of the Kollel men makes a BRIS?"

There is no kollel in Philadelphia yeshiva. But don't let that stop you from continuing your rants with capitalized words.

43

 Mar 28, 2012 at 02:35 PM Avi Says:

Reply to #38  
Anonymous Says:

if you calculate the numbers of the Medrash of how many jews lived in the city "Elexandria she'll Mitzrayim" and other areas after the Chorban Habayis. you'l proof that you are wrong

If you take the words of the Medrash as the results of a census, you are deluding yourself.

I, too, contend that there have been fewer than 1 billion (1000 million for our British readers) Jews through out history.

44

 Mar 28, 2012 at 03:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Its hard to understand why any frum parents would even consider allowing a mohel to use this practice when there are obviously much safer ways of doing milah that don't incure the risk of infection. Now that one of the great poskim has said it shouldn't be done, it would be lunacy to allow mohels to continue doing this to babies. We also risk inviting those who oppose milah on principle to renew their efforts to ban milah entirely.

45

 Mar 28, 2012 at 03:09 PM stormin Says:

Lack of Kovod Hatorah as well as Kovod Habrios Looks like another Nissan without the Geulah

46

 Mar 28, 2012 at 03:14 PM TheLionKing Says:

Reply to #3  
NY1 Says:

The good Rabbi is gonna have to retract his stament after the terror mafia ASKUNIM will threaten him. give it a few days.

If VIN would have a like button I'd use it on your comment

47

 Mar 28, 2012 at 03:42 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #2  
Justin Says:

If there is no basis to doing it with the mouth then where does the thing "metzitza bpeh" come from?

look in the gemorah it never mention "bpeh" just metzitza.

it was done bpeh because that was the slandered practice recommended by the medical profession at that time

people who do not know or learn history think that metzitza bpeh is some type of anomaly that as practiced only by yiddin and during a bris because it is strange to us . however at that time it was normal to do to ANY opened wound

48

 Mar 28, 2012 at 03:43 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #40  
ConcernedMember Says:

False. MBP has NOT been done as long as Bris Milah has been done. MBP was NOT part of the tradition since Avraham Avinu. MBP is first recorded in the times of the Gemara, which is significantly later.

for medical reason and it clearly says in the talmuld

49

 Mar 28, 2012 at 03:53 PM poshete yid Says:

do you really believe the jewish week is quoting rav kamenetsky accurately?!?!???!!! im sure he will deny it

50

 Mar 28, 2012 at 03:59 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #28  
Avi Says:

You mean to write that the Satmar Rav said to violate a D'ohreisa in order to fulfill a Minhag?

(Technically, it would be Shev V'Al Ta'aseh, but still...)

some people claim that it is an vital part of the bris.

of course it is not and even the rambam says if it is not done the bris is ok but he does admonish the mohel not because he did not preform the bris correctly or left or a major part of the bris. No he says because he is putting the baby at risk medical risk

51

 Mar 28, 2012 at 04:31 PM Pro Metzitza B'Peh Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

I was a a teenager back in the UK in the 60s . The Satmar Rebbe ZTL was visiting London and at someone’s home the issue of Metitzah b’peh came up. There was a certain hospital which forbade it and insisted that only a sterile tube be used . At that time most Brisin were performed in hospitals as mothers stayed more than eight days after giving birth .

The tzadik ZTL clearly stated that in a case where the mohel cannot preform metitzah b’peh the Bris should rather be postponed till mother and baby returned home , and that the Mohel should preform Metitzah b’peh even if it meant postponing the Bris. .

I agree, The Satmar Rov was one of the greatest gedolei hador of the generation. I don't chas vesholom mean to belittle Rav Kamenetzky or The Novoseller, but, they are not of the caliber of the Satmar Rov.

52

 Mar 28, 2012 at 05:20 PM Queenbee Says:

Reply to #45  
stormin Says:

Lack of Kovod Hatorah as well as Kovod Habrios Looks like another Nissan without the Geulah

Actually, precisely for this Moshiach must come. Do you think it will get any better with the next generation?
Hoping for Moshiach this Nissan!!!

53

 Mar 28, 2012 at 05:31 PM CSLMoish Says:

Ah yasher koach and ashreinu that we have a leader like R'Shmuel.

54

 Mar 28, 2012 at 05:49 PM Avreich1 Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

Unfortunately, the headline is misleading and the alleged statement by Rabbi Kaminetzky is consistent with his pattern of other ambiguous,unclear, and double meaning statements he has made in the past on other important issues. Here is what he should have said, "In light of our modern,scientific, understanding of microbiology, It is forbidden by Halacha to endanger the life of the Rach HaNimol by performing Direct Metzitza BePEH without a sterile pipette acting as a sanitary barrier. Period,End of Story.

How kind of you to tell one of the gedolei hador how he should or should not posek - especially when you are sooo modest about it, too.

Now, if you had had the gumption to tell us who you are and who granted you semichat dayanut that would have been a different matter entirely.

But you haven't, and it isn't, you uberchochom.

55

 Mar 28, 2012 at 07:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
Pro Metzitza B'Peh Says:

I agree, The Satmar Rov was one of the greatest gedolei hador of the generation. I don't chas vesholom mean to belittle Rav Kamenetzky or The Novoseller, but, they are not of the caliber of the Satmar Rov.

You are entitled to your wrong opinion. Both Rav Kamenetzky,shlita and the Novoseller Rebbe, shilta, are equal to or greater in lamdus than Rav Yolish, Z'tl or either Zalma/Aaron. But why do we have to compare? . The Satmar was still highly regarded by many yidden of all chassidus.

56

 Mar 28, 2012 at 07:52 PM Rabbi_In_The_Know Says:

So they sucked out a statement from his mouth - THAT'S what I call מציצה מן הפה

57

 Mar 28, 2012 at 09:38 PM #12 Says:

Reply to #54  
Avreich1 Says:

How kind of you to tell one of the gedolei hador how he should or should not posek - especially when you are sooo modest about it, too.

Now, if you had had the gumption to tell us who you are and who granted you semichat dayanut that would have been a different matter entirely.

But you haven't, and it isn't, you uberchochom.

Actually, I told him myself personally on another issue, that he was causing a Chilul Hashem. On that issue as well he played the same game with his words and put on a temimus act and quite frankly made me lose all respect for him. Due to the fact that many consider him Daas Torah, once he made a statement, no one could argue because after all Daas Torah. I confronted him on the issue and he played dumb. In my book he may be a Rosh Hayeshiva and a Talmid Chochom, but from what I saw with other Gedolei Poskim, he is not in that caliber and I don't consider him to be Daas Torah.

58

 Mar 28, 2012 at 10:10 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #40  
ConcernedMember Says:

False. MBP has NOT been done as long as Bris Milah has been done. MBP was NOT part of the tradition since Avraham Avinu. MBP is first recorded in the times of the Gemara, which is significantly later.

BTW,
I don't know if where it says, but I've seen that "Mosha Mohl, Aharon Porah, V'Yehishea Mashka/Motzatz"

59

 Mar 28, 2012 at 11:36 PM Rabbi_In_The_Know Says:

Reply to #58  
Anonymous Says:

BTW,
I don't know if where it says, but I've seen that "Mosha Mohl, Aharon Porah, V'Yehishea Mashka/Motzatz"

הרמב"ם במאמר קידוש השם מביא את המאמר הזה להלכה, בשם מדרש חז"ל

60

 Mar 29, 2012 at 02:22 AM shlomozalman Says:

Reply to #51  
Pro Metzitza B'Peh Says:

I agree, The Satmar Rov was one of the greatest gedolei hador of the generation. I don't chas vesholom mean to belittle Rav Kamenetzky or The Novoseller, but, they are not of the caliber of the Satmar Rov.

The Novoseller is a godol? He's a great guy, great sense of humor, but a godol? He'll crack up when he hears this.

By the way, you mean the Novominsker.

61

 Mar 29, 2012 at 08:24 AM ChachoMoe Says:

I will again re-post a comment from earlier:
For all 'scholars and posters' who claim to absolutely know the true halacha, what is considered b'Pah' below is a ruling/ proclamation of the most prominent Rabbis/Bet din i.e Rabbi Samuel Salanter, The Torat Chesed of Lublin and The Simcha Le'Ish R' Elyasir (one of the most prominent Sephardi chacham, in Jerusalem, in the early 1900s)
Note, "IF"there is any of the slightest danger involved, as in any Mitzvah; it of course overrides the commandment.

א ז ה ר ה ג ד ו ל ה
מאת הרבנים הגאונים הגדולים שליט"א דפעה״ק
ירושלם ת״ו ומשני בתי דינים מק״ק
ספרדים ואשכנזים יצ״ו
נח ׳ תשרי שנת התרס״א
ובהיות כי יצא איש אחד לשנות המציצה של ברית מילה לע ש ו ת ה בפיו ע״י כלי זכוכית
וע ״ פ הדין המציצה היא ר ק ב פ ה ל ב ד ולא ע״י דבר אחר כלל,
והיא נהוגה כן בקרב ישראל משנות דור ודור רבותינו הקדמונים ז״ל.
לכן באנו עתה להזהיר בכח תוה"ק כי אל יהיו שום איש ישראלי עוד לעשות המציצה באופן אחר מכפ י הנהוג עד עתה בשום שינוי כל שהוא וכל המשנה ידו על התחתונה. וענוש יענש המוהל ואבי הבן וכל המסייעים לפרוץ גדרן ומנהגן של שראל.
ולהשומע יונעם ותבא ברכת טוב .
יעקב שאול אלישר חכם-באשי ירושת"ו
שמואל סלאנט
שנאור זלמן לאדיער, אב"ד דק"ק לובלין

(שדי חמד ח"ח)

62

 Mar 29, 2012 at 08:28 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #47  
shredready Says:

look in the gemorah it never mention "bpeh" just metzitza.

it was done bpeh because that was the slandered practice recommended by the medical profession at that time

people who do not know or learn history think that metzitza bpeh is some type of anomaly that as practiced only by yiddin and during a bris because it is strange to us . however at that time it was normal to do to ANY opened wound

Again with your ignoramus arguments that you stumbled upon some site..The issue has been explained to you many times; MBP is NOT ONLY for medical purposes, all who argued for it, uphold that it is indeed an essential part and adjoined to the very Mitzvah of Milah..as the Horachomon indicates:

הרחמן היא יברך המל בשר הערלה ופרע "ומצץ" דמי המילה איש הירא ורך הלבב עבודתו פסולה אם ש ל ש אלה לא עשה

I feel like just copy/pasting the already repeated comments ...

63

 Mar 29, 2012 at 09:30 AM shredready Says:

Reply to #62  
Anonymous Says:

Again with your ignoramus arguments that you stumbled upon some site..The issue has been explained to you many times; MBP is NOT ONLY for medical purposes, all who argued for it, uphold that it is indeed an essential part and adjoined to the very Mitzvah of Milah..as the Horachomon indicates:

הרחמן היא יברך המל בשר הערלה ופרע "ומצץ" דמי המילה איש הירא ורך הלבב עבודתו פסולה אם ש ל ש אלה לא עשה

I feel like just copy/pasting the already repeated comments ...

moron I found it in the gemurah when I was in beis medresh I do not need to go to any web site I can go and open a gemurah and see for myself

later on people said there where other reason BUT Rav Puppu clearly stated it was for medical reason and so does the rambam. The rambam even says if it not done the bris is still valid. Look it up if you do not believe any web sites that I may have looked at again anybody can just open up the rambam and see for themselves no INTERNET is needed

yes and even in your case it say suck. so if one can use a pipe and suck (it does no mention phei) and not come into contact with the wound thereby avoided any harm to the baby one would think it should be done in a safe manner

in your example does it say with the mouth? no it does not. Think before you copy and paste

You can bring whatever you want it does not change the fact what the gemurah or the rambam clearly says.


If you think MP does no harm, the next time you or someone in your family gets and open wound wound you suck it and say it cannot do any harm?

64

 Mar 29, 2012 at 09:32 AM shredready Says:

Reply to #55  
Anonymous Says:

You are entitled to your wrong opinion. Both Rav Kamenetzky,shlita and the Novoseller Rebbe, shilta, are equal to or greater in lamdus than Rav Yolish, Z'tl or either Zalma/Aaron. But why do we have to compare? . The Satmar was still highly regarded by many yidden of all chassidus.

true

but on there part it is a one way street

65

 Mar 29, 2012 at 12:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
concerned_Jew Says:

Great. And I was wondering about the practice if we are forbidden to drink blood how could the mohel have done this anyway in the past? Let the suction be done by a steralized tube, that is the answer in a world where germs are everywhere and babies are especially suseptible to infections. I think we have a solution here. Thank you Rabbi Kamenetsky!

genius he spits it out right after he sucks the blood from the wound and rinses his mouth throughly

66

 Mar 29, 2012 at 10:44 PM chance Says:

1- The hospital could have killed the baby, which in my opinion is most probably the case, since they do all kind of tests to see whats happening to the baby.
2- the vitamin K shot given to newborns , can shut down the organs, but noone looks there because we must look for a guinea pig, not the medical establishment.
3- the Hep b vaccine has killed lots of babies ,too.
4- Maybe we should stop vaccinating these small babies until they are 6 months old ,so that we cant blame the mohel.

67

 Mar 30, 2012 at 12:29 PM Aryeh Says:

Very simple fix: periodic full spectrum viral screening for mohelim. Not a big deal, not worth discussion.

68

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