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New York - NY Times Report: Ultra-Orthodox Shun Their Own For Reporting Child Sexual Abuse

Published on: May 10, 2012 09:14 AM
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Mordechai Jungreis speaks during a model Seder in April for victims of sexual abuse and their advocates in the ultra-Orthodox community. Facing the camera from left is Mark Appel, director of Voice of Justice, a victims’ rights group; Rabbi Yosef Blau, the spiritual adviser at Yeshiva University; and Rabbi Gershon Tannenbaum, the spiritual leader of B’nai Israel of Linden Heights. Photo: Shimon GifterNew York - The first shock came when Mordechai Jungreis learned that his mentally disabled teenage son was being molested in a Jewish ritual bathhouse in Brooklyn. The second came after Mr. Jungreis complained, and the man accused of the abuse was arrested.

Old friends started walking stonily past him and his family on the streets of Williamsburg. Their landlord kicked them out of their apartment. Anonymous messages filled their answering machine, cursing Mr. Jungreis for turning in a fellow Jew. And, he said, the mother of a child in a wheelchair confronted Mr. Jungreis’s mother-in-law, saying the same man had molested her son, and she “did not report this crime, so why did your son-in-law have to?”
Tzvi Gluck, 31, of Queens, the son of a prominent rabbi and an informal liaison to secular law enforcement, began helping victims after he met troubled teenagers at Our Place, a help center in Brooklyn, and realized that sexual abuse was often the root of their problems. It was when he began helping the teenagers report cases to the police that he also received threats.
By cooperating with the police, and speaking out about his son’s abuse, Mr. Jungreis, 38, found himself at the painful forefront of an issue roiling his insular Hasidic community. There have been glimmers of change as a small number of ultra-Orthodox Jews, taking on longstanding religious and cultural norms, have begun to report child sexual abuse accusations against members of their own communities. But those who come forward often encounter intense intimidation from their neighbors and from rabbinical authorities, aimed at pressuring them to drop their cases.

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Abuse victims and their families have been expelled from religious schools and synagogues, shunned by fellow ultra-Orthodox Jews and targeted for harassment intended to destroy their businesses. Some victims’ families have been offered money, ostensibly to help pay for therapy for the victims, but also to stop pursuing charges, victims and victims’ advocates said.

“Try living for one day with all the pain I am living with,” Mr. Jungreis, spent and distraught, said recently outside his new apartment on Williamsburg’s outskirts. “Did anybody in the Hasidic community in these two years, in Borough Park, in Flatbush, ever come up and look my son in the eye and tell him a good word? Did anybody take the courage to show him mercy in the street?”
Mr. Jungreis Dancing with Rabbi Nuchem Rosenberg of Williamsburg, during a model Seder in April for victims of sexual abuse and their advocates in the ultra-Orthodox community. Rosenberg runs a low-tech telephone call-in line on which he records impassioned lectures accusing rabbis of covering up child sexual abuse cases and urges victims to call 911. He was formally ostracized by a group of prominent rabbis in 2008.
A few blocks away, Pearl Engelman, a 64-year-old great-grandmother, said her community had failed her too. In 2008, her son, Joel, told rabbinical authorities that he had been repeatedly groped as a child by a school official at the United Talmudical Academy in Williamsburg. The school briefly removed the official but denied the accusation. And when Joel turned 23, too old to file charges under the state’s statute of limitations, they returned the man to teaching.

“There is no nice way of saying it,” Mrs. Engelman said. “Our community protects molesters. Other than that, we are wonderful.”

The New York City area is home to an estimated 250,000 ultra-Orthodox Jews — the largest such community outside of Israel, and one that is growing rapidly because of its high birthrate. The community is concentrated in Brooklyn, where many of the ultra-Orthodox are Hasidim, followers of a fervent spiritual movement that began in 18th-century Europe and applies Jewish law to every aspect of life.

Their communities, headed by dynastic leaders called rebbes, strive to preserve their centuries-old customs by resisting the contaminating influences of the outside world. While some ultra-Orthodox rabbis now argue that a child molester should be reported to the police, others strictly adhere to an ancient prohibition against mesirah, the turning in of a Jew to non-Jewish authorities, and consider publicly airing allegations against fellow Jews to be chillul Hashem, a desecration of God’s name.

There are more mundane factors, too. Some ultra-Orthodox Jews want to keep abuse allegations quiet to protect the reputation of the community, and the family of the accused. And rabbinical authorities, eager to maintain control, worry that inviting outside scrutiny could erode their power, said Samuel Heilman, a professor of Jewish studies at Queens College.

Continue reading at The NY Times 



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Read Comments (101)  —  Post Yours »

2

 May 10, 2012 at 09:25 AM Anyone Says:

FINALLY!!! Someone calling a spade a spade, or actually a "molester" a "molester".

Why is it that they feel stealing and lying is OK but Mesirah isnt.

NO WONDER so many kids say fair well to our community, the hypocrasy screams "AD LEV HASHOMAYIM"> Happy Lag B'omer.

3

 May 10, 2012 at 09:27 AM Trolly_McTrollerston Says:

I'm interested in following the likely blame game in deciding who is responsible for this enormous chillul hashem (ironically the blame will likely be placed on the victims who spoke to the times)
Drinking game anyone for the expected vitriol in the comments below?

5

 May 10, 2012 at 09:43 AM Why the jew hating press?? Says:

Why are they talking to the jew hating press? There is no logical reason to do so. Z'chusim are NOT being attained by this.

6

 May 10, 2012 at 09:45 AM shredready Says:

you most likely just condemned 70%+ of yiddin in boro park and willie and KJ.

the shunning only works if the community shuns. If a few shuns it is not a big deal. Imagine if the leaders says shun someone and the community invites them for shabbos meals. leaders and yes rebbies and gedolim can make mistakes, no matter how holy they are, they have one fault, they are humans and humans err. They are not GDs

the question is, the spotlight is on will the robonum wake up and do something? Or will they just blame the evil INTERNET, and woman who do not dress appropriately (interestingly they never mention stealing, fraud, scams) and the other nonsense they say when they cannot or don't want to deal with an issue head on.

Or sadly will they put all their effort to find out who spoke to the NY Times and harm them and their families

7

 May 10, 2012 at 11:10 AM UseYourHead Says:

I'm sure the Baal Shem would be oh so proud. Rabbi Akiva too, no doubt.

8

 May 10, 2012 at 11:08 AM FinVeeNemtMenSeichel Says:

You mean that they themselves would be molested - not their kids. How could you even say that, even if you haven't given it any thought? Let their kids know nothing but bliss in life, but these resha'im would benefit from getting a taste of their own medicine on their own flesh. And then when they complain... see where this is going?

9

 May 10, 2012 at 11:02 AM sechelyoshor Says:

Reply to #6  
shredready Says:

you most likely just condemned 70%+ of yiddin in boro park and willie and KJ.

the shunning only works if the community shuns. If a few shuns it is not a big deal. Imagine if the leaders says shun someone and the community invites them for shabbos meals. leaders and yes rebbies and gedolim can make mistakes, no matter how holy they are, they have one fault, they are humans and humans err. They are not GDs

the question is, the spotlight is on will the robonum wake up and do something? Or will they just blame the evil INTERNET, and woman who do not dress appropriately (interestingly they never mention stealing, fraud, scams) and the other nonsense they say when they cannot or don't want to deal with an issue head on.

Or sadly will they put all their effort to find out who spoke to the NY Times and harm them and their families

yep, it's the internet

10

 May 10, 2012 at 11:01 AM sechelyoshor Says:

Well in that article, we read that a mother of a molested child approached Jungreis and told him she had kept quiet so why didn't he. So we learn from this that the "mitzvah" to keep quiet runs deep in the community...

The main reason is that once they report it, the family of the victim has a hard time marrying off their kids because people presume they have serious psychological issues, especially the victim. This is a sad truth. There is no easy solution.

11

 May 10, 2012 at 10:56 AM kutaka Says:

Reply to #5  
Why the jew hating press?? Says:

Why are they talking to the jew hating press? There is no logical reason to do so. Z'chusim are NOT being attained by this.

Nobody else listens! Don't you realize this has been a cancer for years!? There comes a time, when the status quo, or just talking to more and more Rebbes doesn't suffice. People in the 'community' have had numerous opportunities to step up and they have failed spectacularly, hence the need for the Jew Hating Press to step up.

12

 May 10, 2012 at 10:40 AM Anonymous Says:

Real molestors should be jailed but too often innocent people are accused and imprisoned. It is an olam hafuch where monsters like the one who touched this jungreis's boy goes free and Rabbi Weingarten who is innocent sits in prison because he fought against Neturei Karta they made a blood libel against him.

13

 May 10, 2012 at 10:34 AM Ari N. Says:

(Good comment from NYT site)

Carolyn EgeliValley Lee, Md.

Where ever essentially "boy clubs" of strict religousity exists, you find this predatory behavior. You also find it in any place where people and children especially, are in a vulnerable position to what they believe are authority figures. Boy scouts, camps, religious youth groups, choirs etc, etc, are laden with them. There are many good people in these programs, but the record should demonstrate to parents to be on the look out for these sick people.

Unfortunately, it is not just in these groups that harbor these types. It is the power over mentality of such individuals, that confuse power with sex that we need to watch out for.

These types have learned to hide themselves in the folds of beneficent organizations and in the raw power of intimidation if the first isn't available. Authority masks as righteousness, and the abuses often go unchecked. It isn't limited to the Orthodox Jews. There is plenty of hypocracy to go around.

14

 May 10, 2012 at 10:33 AM Levi Says:

How can this be true - the boys dress with tznius yet they are the abused? Impossible - ust be the women's fault, or the internet, or the newspaper, or the MO's, or the Tzionim ....

15

 May 10, 2012 at 10:01 AM BuckyinWisconsin Says:

Just read the whole article. It is accurate and truthful. What I am a bit skeptical about though is the stating that child molestation rates in the Frum community are the same as in the general velt. Emotionally, I find this hard believe, but it may be true, chas veshalom. Either way, we know these things exist, adn we know that they are covered up. And let's face it, folks, this is a Chareidi, Chasiddish issue almost exclusively, as far as the cover up aspect. I doubt you would see this kind of cover up in Teaneck or the like.

16

 May 10, 2012 at 10:02 AM CantFightStupid Says:

If someone molested one of my children, I don't think I would report it. However, I guarantee that justice will be served. Mrs. Remington and I will take care of the issue.
If the community fails to do something about it, and I can't go to the authorities, well, I'll just have to take care of it myself. Then, when I go to jail, I will have a minyan and shiurim to go to along with all the other "good" Jews who did nothing wrong (like steal and cheat). I guess that is ok, but protecting our chilldren is not?

17

 May 10, 2012 at 10:09 AM ShmutzVesh Says:

These idiots dont wanna turn molestors in out of fear of making a chilul Hashem......But this is better huh? Idiots!!!

18

 May 10, 2012 at 10:10 AM Love Davka Says:

Reply to #5  
Why the jew hating press?? Says:

Why are they talking to the jew hating press? There is no logical reason to do so. Z'chusim are NOT being attained by this.

That's the whole point! Their own community is not helping them, so they have to go outside.
It's attitudes like yours that cause the problem of molestation to grow and fester.

19

 May 10, 2012 at 10:17 AM Babishka Says:

They should be making a big Asifa about molestation, how to prevent it and stop it from happening instead of the geshrey over teh eebil Internet. If molesters could watch CGI porn on the Internet maybe they wouldn't be tempted to harm real actual children!

20

 May 10, 2012 at 10:20 AM Phineas Says:

Reply to #5  
Why the jew hating press?? Says:

Why are they talking to the jew hating press? There is no logical reason to do so. Z'chusim are NOT being attained by this.

Because the press is reporting what is really happening with names and facts unlike the information we get from within the community. Don't shift blame to the press for our dreck.

21

 May 10, 2012 at 10:28 AM Chaim Says:

Kol Hakavod to those who report abuse. They are saving the live of a future victim. Shame on the community for not supporting those who were abused and those who report the abuser. Those who show compassion to evil bring evil on the compassionate.

22

 May 10, 2012 at 10:28 AM Anonymous Says:

Those who protect molesters are almost as bad as the perverts. When a community is too closed like in Williamsburg the victim becomes the criminal. What a chilul Hashem!
It is primitive and dangerous thinking to think that a few criminals could destroy the whole communities reputation. What will it take for these fools to wake up?

23

 May 10, 2012 at 10:31 AM Meir Says:

Reply to #5  
Why the jew hating press?? Says:

Why are they talking to the jew hating press? There is no logical reason to do so. Z'chusim are NOT being attained by this.

Yashar koiach!! Finally a comment that truly understands the situation. This is all the fault of the NY Times.

24

 May 10, 2012 at 10:31 AM Phineas Says:

Apparently, we don't mind molesters as long as they don't have internet.

25

 May 10, 2012 at 11:18 AM HAPPY12 Says:

It is wonderful to be born into the chassidic system.

Yes, our system may have it flaws, just like any other system - but the venom is not called for. Luck to those who abandon it? They will need mercy from heaven.

26

 May 10, 2012 at 11:26 AM mythoughts Says:

Mordechai Jungreis is a courageous man and a wonderful father. It takes a lot of guts to do what he is doing. May he and his family be treated with the respect that they deserve.

27

 May 10, 2012 at 11:27 AM concerned_Jew Says:

this is a sad sad situation but apparently been going on since the beginning of time and in the Orthodox community as well. So now that it is coming out, what is so bad. If you cover up and cover up eventually it comes out, so now it is coming out, let's deal properly with it, the shame, the mental and emotional damage, let's deal with it. It is still our baby, we have to love children even though they have been abused and prevent or punish those who abuse if we can't prevent it first. We are supposed to be on a higher level than gentiles, therefore our system MUST find a way to deal with this issue as gentiles deal with in their own way, maybe not as we would but at least they address it. We need to find a way to address this in our own unique Jewish way OR, if we can't then we need to allow the government to do what it has to do to protect us and our children. Covering up has to stop.

28

 May 10, 2012 at 11:39 AM Anonymous Says:

Why are our so called leaders so blind? Can't they see that the silent majority is seething? Every child that is molested --- and there are hundreds over the years -- affects thousands of people , parents, grand parents, relatives, close friends etc. who grieve when such a child goes OTD or becomes suicidal.

This rage has reached epidemic proportions yet the leadership, is covering up, protecting their institutions, shuls, etc. to the detriment of klall yisroel.

I never understood or cared (and still don't) how the mighty worlwide Catholic Church has been destroyed by this scandal. Couldn't they see this coming? Now I understand. Tsunami warning.

29

 May 10, 2012 at 11:52 AM Anon Ibid Opcit Says:

Supreme Court Justice (and Jew) Louis Brandeis said "Sunlight is the best disinfectant"

30

 May 10, 2012 at 11:51 AM Informed Consent Says:

Cont.

How do we apply dina d'malchusa? Or any other halachic concept?

It seems that those who have proper guidance, who truly trust in their leaders after having forged and formed a true relationship over time, always have a better sense of well-being, in knowing they are acting in accordance with His Will, despite the pain and anguish over the circumstances.

Without living within the Torah perspective the anguish, the horror never ends.

Diracheha Darchai Noam.

31

 May 10, 2012 at 11:48 AM InformedConsent Says:

As I've commented in the past, the issue has been muddled by emotion.

There is no Rav who has any credibility that will differentiate in public or private. A person who has committed sexual abuse on a child must be handed over to the law. He must be removed from places where he can prey on children again. It may even be a mitzva l'farsem - to warn the general public. This is the commandment we read recently - Lo Saamod Al Dam Ray'eh'cha.

This is undisputed.

Where things get confusing for those that are emotionally based is when they equate an accusation with rock solid proof. Before it has been determined to be fact. Do we accept the word of the child? To what extent do we need to be concerned with the family and children of the falsely accused? Can a layman warn the public based on his certainty even if a bais din may not have the authority to make a definitive conclusion? As a parent, even if I don't believe an accusation for religious purposes, aren't I still allowed to be worried for my child or my friends child and demand that the person be removed until the charges are proven otherwise? What is the Torah perspective on mesirah in these situations?

32

 May 10, 2012 at 12:08 PM TheRealJoe123 Says:

Reply to #13  
Ari N. Says:

(Good comment from NYT site)

Carolyn EgeliValley Lee, Md.

Where ever essentially "boy clubs" of strict religousity exists, you find this predatory behavior. You also find it in any place where people and children especially, are in a vulnerable position to what they believe are authority figures. Boy scouts, camps, religious youth groups, choirs etc, etc, are laden with them. There are many good people in these programs, but the record should demonstrate to parents to be on the look out for these sick people.

Unfortunately, it is not just in these groups that harbor these types. It is the power over mentality of such individuals, that confuse power with sex that we need to watch out for.

These types have learned to hide themselves in the folds of beneficent organizations and in the raw power of intimidation if the first isn't available. Authority masks as righteousness, and the abuses often go unchecked. It isn't limited to the Orthodox Jews. There is plenty of hypocracy to go around.

So the flip side I think is also true in Hollywood where if count just the reported sex crimes the numbers are very high.

33

 May 10, 2012 at 12:13 PM TheRealJoe123 Says:

Probably the first time that I agreed with the times in my whole life I just don't understand why they didn't hit DA Hynes he's the center of this pit.

34

 May 10, 2012 at 12:18 PM CSLMoish Says:

They colored all our communities with the same brush and its pretty in-accurate as its an exception to the rule. Agudah's position is taken out of context in this article as well. Fact is that Molestation in general has always been a tabboo and undereported crime and this has not much to do with the "extremist jews" but the general privacy issues involving minors and the heitancy to point fingers at people in authority positions like priests, sports coaches, teachers and yes unfortunaely Rabbis too.

35

 May 10, 2012 at 12:28 PM coalitioncalany Says:

Yes, I reported sexual abuse to the police. My punishment? I was forced out of my house, away from my children, including a nursing baby. So should people make the report? How brilliant is it to separate the 'reporter' from the victims, so that these crimes can continue without oversight! If you have any ideas, please let me know.

36

 May 10, 2012 at 12:29 PM myohmy Says:

I must say that jungreis going public or anyone is there choice. But the problem with sexual abusers is that its all she say he say and if there is no proof hard to have a case. And actually it has been found that people are looking for blame so they come and say they were molested and it was never true. Things have to be proven for people to start believing if it did or did not happen. We are not supposed to protect the molesters but yes we need more proof. And to me it almost is like a style to just say I was abused for there to be a reason for there misbehavior! And let me also say that molestation is all over and I agree with #13 the comment that was posted it so true!

37

 May 10, 2012 at 12:34 PM mythoughts Says:

Reply to #31  
InformedConsent Says:

As I've commented in the past, the issue has been muddled by emotion.

There is no Rav who has any credibility that will differentiate in public or private. A person who has committed sexual abuse on a child must be handed over to the law. He must be removed from places where he can prey on children again. It may even be a mitzva l'farsem - to warn the general public. This is the commandment we read recently - Lo Saamod Al Dam Ray'eh'cha.

This is undisputed.

Where things get confusing for those that are emotionally based is when they equate an accusation with rock solid proof. Before it has been determined to be fact. Do we accept the word of the child? To what extent do we need to be concerned with the family and children of the falsely accused? Can a layman warn the public based on his certainty even if a bais din may not have the authority to make a definitive conclusion? As a parent, even if I don't believe an accusation for religious purposes, aren't I still allowed to be worried for my child or my friends child and demand that the person be removed until the charges are proven otherwise? What is the Torah perspective on mesirah in these situations?

You write:

"There is no Rav who has any credibility that will differentiate in public or private. A person who has committed sexual abuse on a child must be handed over to the law."

Ha ha. Good joke. How many molesters have been handed over to authorities by a Rav? You're living in a self imposed dream land.

38

 May 10, 2012 at 12:54 PM Is this news? Says:

There is little in this article that isn't already well known other than a few names and details.
The only thing new is that it was printed on the front page of the NY Times.
In all fairness, the NY Times should now print an article on the positive in Satmar such as the bikur cholim organizations.

39

 May 10, 2012 at 12:57 PM Anonymous Says:

I personally know of eleven kinder who have been abused and hopefully after reading this article, the parents will go immediately to the police, but I highly doubt it because the parents are more concerned with image than protecting their precious tots.

40

 May 10, 2012 at 12:59 PM Anonymous Says:

A big part of the problem is that its not talked about at home, in schools, cheiderim... AWARENESS is key! once this issue is being discussed and a dialogue is started on this topic, victims will come forward to there parents much faster. a part of the problem is that the kids are not well educated and they don`t say anything if something occurs. as a parent it is our obligation to explain to our kids the issue at hand!! and stop pushing it under the rug!! and i would also add that instead of the "askanim" making asifas on the internet... they should focus on making asifas and awareness on this matter.

42

 May 10, 2012 at 01:05 PM Butterfly Says:

We ought to tar and feather these molesters in Citifield or any other public place and make them walk all the way home!! Let the kids who they did it to -- do the tarring!! It might even help them recover!! To a degree. They will at last know, that somebody is being PUNISHED!!

44

 May 10, 2012 at 01:32 PM fruppy1 Says:

How is this any different then the Arab honor killings, who kill their very own daughters if they were raped. So primitive and sad!!

45

 May 10, 2012 at 01:41 PM Anonymous Says:

What a shame that this article had to be published. The "leaders" were given ample warnings by the victims and their families who cried out for help.

46

 May 10, 2012 at 01:42 PM mewhoze Says:

thank goodness people are coming out and reporting the abusers. living in a bubble is dangerous. i remember when people started discussing drugs and alcohol abuse as well. before that everyone tried to sweep it under the rug until someone dies from it G-d forbid.
We are far from perfect and jsut like every other group we have good and bad and sick amongst us. It is our responsibility to keep our children safe and educated as well. Not to hide when something has been done that was wrong.

48

 May 10, 2012 at 01:49 PM enlightened-yid Says:

Reply to #36  
myohmy Says:

I must say that jungreis going public or anyone is there choice. But the problem with sexual abusers is that its all she say he say and if there is no proof hard to have a case. And actually it has been found that people are looking for blame so they come and say they were molested and it was never true. Things have to be proven for people to start believing if it did or did not happen. We are not supposed to protect the molesters but yes we need more proof. And to me it almost is like a style to just say I was abused for there to be a reason for there misbehavior! And let me also say that molestation is all over and I agree with #13 the comment that was posted it so true!

How are you going to prove who is telling the truth or not if you don't even allow the victims to cooperate with the police so they the professional investigators can do their work and find the truth? The current frum system does not have the interest of victims or finding real abusers; the current system is designed to HIDE the ugly reality that is in their communities because they like to live in a false facade of righteousness among their non-Jewish neighbors. The leadership is only focused on public image of the community and not the well being of children and victims.

49

 May 10, 2012 at 01:50 PM Anonymous Says:

From the sidelines, I sense more foolishness than goes on in a comedy club. No one believes that mesirah is insignificant. No one truly believes that our community, in its insularity, is capable of prosecuting a molester and exacting consequences that are appropriate. There is a reality that is newer than the complaints about past coverups. It only requires a reason to hate, and the ability to destroy someone is easy. Just create an allegation about molestation. It does not matter what is found on evaluations, and the court (or beis din) proceedings and ruling (psak) are irrelevant. The defendant will forever carry the label as someone who was accused. Reputation is murdered even though it was verified to be false. We cannot create a system that does this. Anyone accused of this crime deserves the same rights as one accused of any other crime. Take all safety measures needed - no one should be at risk, even on a doubt. But the current system convicts without any due process, and this is not okay, neither in secular law, nor in halacha.

As far as the idea of an abuse asifa - go plan one. Leave this one alone. the topic and agenda are already done.

50

 May 10, 2012 at 03:04 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #33  
TheRealJoe123 Says:

Probably the first time that I agreed with the times in my whole life I just don't understand why they didn't hit DA Hynes he's the center of this pit.

Fridays paper read it

51

 May 10, 2012 at 02:11 PM BakaMentch Says:

Obviously, neither you nor any member of your family has been molested. I hope you never have to learn how wrong you are.

52

 May 10, 2012 at 02:12 PM Joe Says:

Rav Eliyashiv never paskened anything about this raglayim l'd dovor garbage. I know two people who specifically asked the gadol hadar what to do on this issue and the gadol hadar said go to the police. The second person in the room asked but what happens if the person is innocent and the godol hadar responded, " that's the police problem and not yours." So what we learn from here is the godol hadar obviously has brains and the Aguda twisted what the rosh yeshiva said on audio,video and written psak. Ever wonder why the Aguda refuses to put out the Audio of the conversation?

If the Aguda continues to protect pedophiles they should only know what is coming to them one day. if you thought Hitler had his own room in hell think again because what many are doing is not just evil but ruining generations of klal yisroel.

53

 May 10, 2012 at 02:28 PM BP MOM Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

Real molestors should be jailed but too often innocent people are accused and imprisoned. It is an olam hafuch where monsters like the one who touched this jungreis's boy goes free and Rabbi Weingarten who is innocent sits in prison because he fought against Neturei Karta they made a blood libel against him.

You really made me laugh...Weingarten left such a messy trail of evidence that to blame the NK is pathetic and absolutely hilarious!

54

 May 10, 2012 at 02:38 PM LebidikYankel Says:

There is a real issue with determining guilt on the basis of an allegation, especially a child's. This is one major problem in taking action against molesters.
Saying that people are just callous and wicked is immature, in my opinion.

55

 May 10, 2012 at 02:52 PM BaruchGershom Says:

Reply to #30  
Informed Consent Says:

Cont.

How do we apply dina d'malchusa? Or any other halachic concept?

It seems that those who have proper guidance, who truly trust in their leaders after having forged and formed a true relationship over time, always have a better sense of well-being, in knowing they are acting in accordance with His Will, despite the pain and anguish over the circumstances.

Without living within the Torah perspective the anguish, the horror never ends.

Diracheha Darchai Noam.

#30: If you accept the opinion of the Tzitz Eliezer 19:52, mesira does not apply with respect to the laws of "enlightened" governments, citing the Aruch HaShulchan who held that dina d'malchusa dina applies if a government's laws are fair to everyone, "like England's laws, or the Glorious Czar's." A"H Chosen Mishpat 388:7-9. Rabbi Yitzhok Breitowitz lectured that the quoted clause caused some poskim to disregard the entire ruling as a censor's addition. He asserts, however, that the A"H added the reference to the Czar himself so it would not appear that he was implying that the Czar's laws are not fair. That makes sense: Russian censors would not have mentioned "England." See also Ramban's view cited in Sefer HaTerumot 46:8 (all just and fair legislation falls under "dina d'malchusa dina"); accord Shach, Yoreh Deah, 165:8.

56

 May 10, 2012 at 02:53 PM BaruchGershom Says:

Is Rav Elyashiv's opinion published anywhere? Or the Agudah's? Thanks.

57

 May 10, 2012 at 02:58 PM BaruchGershom Says:

To 41: No heter?? I hope you're not being serious (especially as to your "what's the big deal" line. See the sources cited already. Don't you think that the fact that we are not taking a hard line to protect our children is a chillul Hashem?

58

 May 10, 2012 at 03:05 PM Anonymous Says:

41: I found the source that Ben Kol (#43)'s position that the Agudah and Rav Elyashiv both support going to the police. It needs a qualification. On the Zev Brenner show, Rabbi Chaim David Zweibel, Executive Vice President of the Agudah, emphasized that it is not only halachically permissible for a survivor of abuse to report to the civil authorities a perpetrator who is still at large and a danger to others - it is an obligation. Others who know something but were not direct witnesses have an obligation to go to a Rav to see if their knowledge is sufficient to give the allegation "legs." That strikes me more as a loshon hora analysis than a mesira analysis.

59

 May 10, 2012 at 03:11 PM The NYTimes?! Says:

Reply to #2  
Anyone Says:

FINALLY!!! Someone calling a spade a spade, or actually a "molester" a "molester".

Why is it that they feel stealing and lying is OK but Mesirah isnt.

NO WONDER so many kids say fair well to our community, the hypocrasy screams "AD LEV HASHOMAYIM"> Happy Lag B'omer.

While most of us are aware of the terrible problem of abuse, I have to wonder why any Frum Jew would discuss this or grant interviews with the NY Times of all places!!! The disgusting Chillul Hashem that some of the quotes from individuals caused is scary. Let's deal with issues of our community within our community and not give the goyim more fuel for their hatred of us.

60

 May 10, 2012 at 03:13 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #36  
myohmy Says:

I must say that jungreis going public or anyone is there choice. But the problem with sexual abusers is that its all she say he say and if there is no proof hard to have a case. And actually it has been found that people are looking for blame so they come and say they were molested and it was never true. Things have to be proven for people to start believing if it did or did not happen. We are not supposed to protect the molesters but yes we need more proof. And to me it almost is like a style to just say I was abused for there to be a reason for there misbehavior! And let me also say that molestation is all over and I agree with #13 the comment that was posted it so true!

there has been many studies regarding false accusation and it is very few very very few.

In addition the way the community treats a victim the chances that an accusation is true is very close to zero.

there is no system that is fool proof, but your suggestion is the let 100's of molesters get away just because of a minuscule percentage that an innocent person will be accused

I did speak to a person who works in a Da's ( a friend) and she said sexual abuse is the one crime they are very careful before they bring chargers because they know the mere accusation can ruin someone.

I think many people are under the wrong impression. I think people think all it takes for a child to say he touched me, and the police come and make an arrest. that is not the case . They have special units to deal with this, to make sure the accusation is credible

61

 May 10, 2012 at 03:16 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #38  
Is this news? Says:

There is little in this article that isn't already well known other than a few names and details.
The only thing new is that it was printed on the front page of the NY Times.
In all fairness, the NY Times should now print an article on the positive in Satmar such as the bikur cholim organizations.

when they exposed the church scandal did you ask the papers to write about all the charity and services that the church provides to the poor including their version of bikur cholim

62

 May 10, 2012 at 03:18 PM This is the position adopted by the Agudah. Says:

This is the position adopted by the Agudah.

really ask agudah if they can name 2 or 3 people that they gave permission for the parents to go to the police?

63

 May 10, 2012 at 03:20 PM Sad but true Says:

Reply to #10  
sechelyoshor Says:

Well in that article, we read that a mother of a molested child approached Jungreis and told him she had kept quiet so why didn't he. So we learn from this that the "mitzvah" to keep quiet runs deep in the community...

The main reason is that once they report it, the family of the victim has a hard time marrying off their kids because people presume they have serious psychological issues, especially the victim. This is a sad truth. There is no easy solution.

Well the sad fact is that victims most times do suffer severe psychological harm which unfortunately remains with them for life and even thru therapy is usually not completely healed. This results in devastating consequences, ruined relationships, inability to sustain healthy relationships or marriages, addictive behaviors or harmful behaviors, a whole host of serious repercussions. Truth be told I am in a marriage with a former victim of abuse and am in the therapy field as well. I can tell you that the sad truth is it's very difficult for victims to be in healthy relationships and it is devastating to the victim's spouse to have to deal with the many pains/abuse the victim-spouse will unintentionally bring to the relationship, and one could hardly blame parents of children in shidduchim to be wary of allowing their child to marry a victim. Sad, very sad but a parent's ultimate concern must be the welfar of their own child.

64

 May 10, 2012 at 03:24 PM ToBabishka Says:

Reply to #19  
Babishka Says:

They should be making a big Asifa about molestation, how to prevent it and stop it from happening instead of the geshrey over teh eebil Internet. If molesters could watch CGI porn on the Internet maybe they wouldn't be tempted to harm real actual children!

Your comment reeks of naïveté. It's a proven fact that many of who engage in looking at deviant pornography, eventually go on to acting it out. The Schmutz on the Internet most certainly is a stepping stone to acting out.

65

 May 10, 2012 at 03:28 PM THEleadership? Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

Why are our so called leaders so blind? Can't they see that the silent majority is seething? Every child that is molested --- and there are hundreds over the years -- affects thousands of people , parents, grand parents, relatives, close friends etc. who grieve when such a child goes OTD or becomes suicidal.

This rage has reached epidemic proportions yet the leadership, is covering up, protecting their institutions, shuls, etc. to the detriment of klall yisroel.

I never understood or cared (and still don't) how the mighty worlwide Catholic Church has been destroyed by this scandal. Couldn't they see this coming? Now I understand. Tsunami warning.

While your points to a degree are valid, to paint the entire "leadership" with the same brush, is false and unfair. There are many good Rabbonim who are honest and open on the issue and dealing with it effectively. If certain ones have been misguided, theres a G-d who knows the deal better than you. Meantime don't make generalizations that all Rabbonim cover up. False and malicious.

66

 May 10, 2012 at 03:32 PM HowAboutYou? Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

I personally know of eleven kinder who have been abused and hopefully after reading this article, the parents will go immediately to the police, but I highly doubt it because the parents are more concerned with image than protecting their precious tots.

You're waiting for their parents to report? You know of active cases of abuse; why aren't YOU reporting it?

67

 May 10, 2012 at 03:39 PM FreezerSpace Says:

Reply to #10  
sechelyoshor Says:

Well in that article, we read that a mother of a molested child approached Jungreis and told him she had kept quiet so why didn't he. So we learn from this that the "mitzvah" to keep quiet runs deep in the community...

The main reason is that once they report it, the family of the victim has a hard time marrying off their kids because people presume they have serious psychological issues, especially the victim. This is a sad truth. There is no easy solution.

You are focusing on only half the issue.

The families of these victims must speak out. If not, this will no doubt happen to others. If these molesters are allowed free reign to continue their sick habits, where does it stop? These sickos are never satisfied. It is a progressive sickness that will lead to worse things and the victims are the children.

Parents who only worrying about a shidduch for their child just shows how broken that community has become. I was under the impression that we were a cimmunity that valued the upbringing of our children and strive for them to be good children. How can we expect them to be normal when they think that being groped or worse is normal?

68

 May 10, 2012 at 04:16 PM Anon Ibid Opcit Says:

Not as of this year. Their latest pronouncement is that if you actually see a child being molested you MAY go to the police. Otherwise go to the rabbi or the bes din.

In other words, sweep it under the rug. Destroy evidence. Tamper with witnesses. Let the rapist go free.

69

 May 10, 2012 at 04:43 PM Trolly_McTrollerston Says:

Reply to #59  
The NYTimes?! Says:

While most of us are aware of the terrible problem of abuse, I have to wonder why any Frum Jew would discuss this or grant interviews with the NY Times of all places!!! The disgusting Chillul Hashem that some of the quotes from individuals caused is scary. Let's deal with issues of our community within our community and not give the goyim more fuel for their hatred of us.

reading comprehension fail!
the whole point is that "Let's deal with issues of our community within our community" is a failed policy that created much of the problem to begin with

70

 May 10, 2012 at 04:54 PM Ina Says:

I know that the worst low life criminal in prison cannot tolerate a fellow inmate who is a child molestor. I wonder, how is it, that our rabbonim have no problem with this crime and refuse to do what must be done to protect our children.

71

 May 10, 2012 at 05:00 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #60  
shredready Says:

there has been many studies regarding false accusation and it is very few very very few.

In addition the way the community treats a victim the chances that an accusation is true is very close to zero.

there is no system that is fool proof, but your suggestion is the let 100's of molesters get away just because of a minuscule percentage that an innocent person will be accused

I did speak to a person who works in a Da's ( a friend) and she said sexual abuse is the one crime they are very careful before they bring chargers because they know the mere accusation can ruin someone.

I think many people are under the wrong impression. I think people think all it takes for a child to say he touched me, and the police come and make an arrest. that is not the case . They have special units to deal with this, to make sure the accusation is credible

In addition the way the community treats a victim the chances that an accusation is false is very close to zero.

72

 May 10, 2012 at 05:04 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #59  
The NYTimes?! Says:

While most of us are aware of the terrible problem of abuse, I have to wonder why any Frum Jew would discuss this or grant interviews with the NY Times of all places!!! The disgusting Chillul Hashem that some of the quotes from individuals caused is scary. Let's deal with issues of our community within our community and not give the goyim more fuel for their hatred of us.

because that is a way to get the leaders to act, or to get others to report.

Just like the church did not do anything until it hit the media so too with the robonum

and this is why many religious leader hate the Internet, without the Internet these things would still be hidden

Victim who thought they where alone or the only ones see post from otter victims and that started to ball rolling

73

 May 10, 2012 at 05:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #64  
ToBabishka Says:

Your comment reeks of naïveté. It's a proven fact that many of who engage in looking at deviant pornography, eventually go on to acting it out. The Schmutz on the Internet most certainly is a stepping stone to acting out.

Please cite reference for your "proven fact". I'm not so sure it has any validity. I need a reference from a reputable scientific source to convince me otherwise.

74

 May 10, 2012 at 05:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #60  
shredready Says:

there has been many studies regarding false accusation and it is very few very very few.

In addition the way the community treats a victim the chances that an accusation is true is very close to zero.

there is no system that is fool proof, but your suggestion is the let 100's of molesters get away just because of a minuscule percentage that an innocent person will be accused

I did speak to a person who works in a Da's ( a friend) and she said sexual abuse is the one crime they are very careful before they bring chargers because they know the mere accusation can ruin someone.

I think many people are under the wrong impression. I think people think all it takes for a child to say he touched me, and the police come and make an arrest. that is not the case . They have special units to deal with this, to make sure the accusation is credible

Surprise. You're almost making sense!

The issue you raised about the devastating power of an accusation is greater than you think. There are many uncredible accusations that are filtered out before they get reported. The problem we suffer from is that there are credible ones that still stay secret, But the accusations once uttered will often land inthe mouths of some radical fanatics who will blast them everywhere, the blogs, the media both broadcast and print, and destroy the alleged molester before it is verified that the charges are untrue. There are so many cases that the DA's office refuses to prosecute because the accusations are flawed. No one wants the true molesters to get off scot free. We all want them away from society. But we also want a process that prevents the accusation from going viral where is there is no verification of credibility.

75

 May 10, 2012 at 06:08 PM Sherree Says:

Reply to #35  
coalitioncalany Says:

Yes, I reported sexual abuse to the police. My punishment? I was forced out of my house, away from my children, including a nursing baby. So should people make the report? How brilliant is it to separate the 'reporter' from the victims, so that these crimes can continue without oversight! If you have any ideas, please let me know.

Yes your problem was going through an agency which works with the Rabbonim to keep things quiet. You might have had better luck had you not used the sources available to the Jewish community. I would advise everyone to sidestep them.

76

 May 10, 2012 at 06:13 PM Anonymous Says:

This Bubby will personally run, not walk, to the police & blast it everywhere if anyone, ever, touches my eineklach. And if G-d forbid a million times a family member of mine committed such a terrible crime I would have no choice but to turn him in. That would also kill me. Children have to be protected and it's up to us as adults to do what we have to to guard their innocence.

Poor Joel Englander. I think of him often, he is the poster boy for Frum abused kids spiralling into another world. I pray he finds menuchas hanefesh very soon.

77

 May 10, 2012 at 06:34 PM May 12, 2003 Says:

(Reply to #73): Would you accept the confession of a child rapist/killer as evidence? Google the name "Michael Briere." In 2003, he kidnapped ten year old Holly Jones in Toronto. He sexually assaulted her, killed her, and dismembered her body. Briere pleaded guilty to the crime, which he then described as "cruel, inhuman, and nightmarish," claiming he wished to spare his victim's family the pain of a trial. He received an automatic life sentence and will not be eligible to apply for parole for 25 years.

In court, he attributed his actions to viewing child pornography, a claim which resulted in considerable public debate about pornography in Canada.
Briere said he was sitting in his home viewing child pornography, when he suddenly felt the urge to "act on what he was viewing." By his own account, the hideous crime he committed was spurred by his increasing and insatiable appetite for viewing child porn. Unfortunately, Holly was walking by his home when he felt the impulse to rape a child. He literally grabbed her off the street. Shabbos will be the nine year anniversary of her violent death.

78

 May 10, 2012 at 06:59 PM Anonymous Says:

unfortanly living in this heimish community, if god forbid this would happen to a family member of mine, i would not report, due to the reprecussion, its so sad, and I admire all the parents that do report, but i wouldnt have the courage to withstand the alianation that comes with it. I support you 100% mr. youngreis but you werent born yesterday you knew you would be bashed. how sad for you and your family.

79

 May 10, 2012 at 07:37 PM AbuseInDivorce Says:

Reply to #49  
Anonymous Says:

From the sidelines, I sense more foolishness than goes on in a comedy club. No one believes that mesirah is insignificant. No one truly believes that our community, in its insularity, is capable of prosecuting a molester and exacting consequences that are appropriate. There is a reality that is newer than the complaints about past coverups. It only requires a reason to hate, and the ability to destroy someone is easy. Just create an allegation about molestation. It does not matter what is found on evaluations, and the court (or beis din) proceedings and ruling (psak) are irrelevant. The defendant will forever carry the label as someone who was accused. Reputation is murdered even though it was verified to be false. We cannot create a system that does this. Anyone accused of this crime deserves the same rights as one accused of any other crime. Take all safety measures needed - no one should be at risk, even on a doubt. But the current system convicts without any due process, and this is not okay, neither in secular law, nor in halacha.

As far as the idea of an abuse asifa - go plan one. Leave this one alone. the topic and agenda are already done.

How about the many cases of couples going thru a divorce, in which one spouse encourage their children and coaces them to lie and make false allegations of abuse against the other spouse, in order to win favor in the eyes of the divorce court?

80

 May 10, 2012 at 07:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #52  
Joe Says:

Rav Eliyashiv never paskened anything about this raglayim l'd dovor garbage. I know two people who specifically asked the gadol hadar what to do on this issue and the gadol hadar said go to the police. The second person in the room asked but what happens if the person is innocent and the godol hadar responded, " that's the police problem and not yours." So what we learn from here is the godol hadar obviously has brains and the Aguda twisted what the rosh yeshiva said on audio,video and written psak. Ever wonder why the Aguda refuses to put out the Audio of the conversation?

If the Aguda continues to protect pedophiles they should only know what is coming to them one day. if you thought Hitler had his own room in hell think again because what many are doing is not just evil but ruining generations of klal yisroel.

One point you make is correct. Leave the punishment in the hands of G-d. He really doesn't need our help. People should make the necessary Hishtadlus and leave the rest to Him.

81

 May 10, 2012 at 07:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #72  
shredready Says:

because that is a way to get the leaders to act, or to get others to report.

Just like the church did not do anything until it hit the media so too with the robonum

and this is why many religious leader hate the Internet, without the Internet these things would still be hidden

Victim who thought they where alone or the only ones see post from otter victims and that started to ball rolling

Oh I thought many people hated the Internet because of all the blogs in which anonymous cowards feel free to malign, curse at and destroy the reputations of Gedolim and Rabbonim.

82

 May 10, 2012 at 07:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #73  
Anonymous Says:

Please cite reference for your "proven fact". I'm not so sure it has any validity. I need a reference from a reputable scientific source to convince me otherwise.

Do a little research on your beloved Internet and you'll see the studies done. Usually progresses from surfing deviant sites to acting out.

83

 May 10, 2012 at 08:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #75  
Sherree Says:

Yes your problem was going through an agency which works with the Rabbonim to keep things quiet. You might have had better luck had you not used the sources available to the Jewish community. I would advise everyone to sidestep them.

I would advise a non-Jew not to give spiritual advice to a Jew.

84

 May 10, 2012 at 08:35 PM HappyInMonsey Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

Real molestors should be jailed but too often innocent people are accused and imprisoned. It is an olam hafuch where monsters like the one who touched this jungreis's boy goes free and Rabbi Weingarten who is innocent sits in prison because he fought against Neturei Karta they made a blood libel against him.

Rabbi Weingarten is innocent? Did you speak to even one of the dozens of victims he molested over his career? You simply don't get it. Nuchem Rosenberg is right. The Rabbonim are covering up. I'm not here to speculate about motives but everything you hear from them is smoke and mirrors. The entire community knows the emperor has no clothes and this is reflected in the many OTD teens we see.

85

 May 10, 2012 at 08:47 PM elliot770 Says:

How many children are going to suffer because we still have people who think its a shander to go to police.Chas vesholom until it willtouch their family thell scream mesira.The Rabonim including the Aguda s Israel policy of first asking Rabonim who will say lets try and change the molester before going to police is total absurdity. A MOLESTER CAN NOT BE CURED its a fact.A molester will not stop untill hes behind bars he has it to deep in his being to stop.We had a convicted molester in Chicago who turned baal teshuva as a front. He was voluntering to drive boys to the mikva and was until he was found out. Still we had Rabonim befreinding him in the C------- Kolel and inviting him home shabos . It took years of a geshrei and financial pressure to get the scoundral out of the community.Some Rabonim are guta neshomos type unfortunatley its misguided.YOU CANT TAKE STRIPES OFF A ZEBRA WITH PAINT REMOVER AND YOU CANT CHANGE OR TRUST A CHILD MOLESTER>

86

 May 10, 2012 at 08:52 PM Babishka Says:

Reply to #64  
ToBabishka Says:

Your comment reeks of naïveté. It's a proven fact that many of who engage in looking at deviant pornography, eventually go on to acting it out. The Schmutz on the Internet most certainly is a stepping stone to acting out.

There is no "scientific study" that says everyone who has looked at porno, becomes a rapist or molester, because it is simply not true. Millions of people look at porno do not become rapists or molesters. I am not saying that it is a good thing to look at porno but it is better to look at CGI porno on the Internet than to rape an actual human being. And you certainly know there was plenty of rape and molesting before the Internet.

87

 May 10, 2012 at 09:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #78  
Anonymous Says:

unfortanly living in this heimish community, if god forbid this would happen to a family member of mine, i would not report, due to the reprecussion, its so sad, and I admire all the parents that do report, but i wouldnt have the courage to withstand the alianation that comes with it. I support you 100% mr. youngreis but you werent born yesterday you knew you would be bashed. how sad for you and your family.

"unfortanly, reprecussion, alianation"

You're a member of this community. Why don't they teach spelling in your yeshivas? How can you function in America without knowing how to write a proper sentence?

You say if it happened to a member of your family, you wouldn't report it. Let's say it happened to one of your sons. Would you sacrifice your other children and continue to let the abuser have access to your kinder? Maybe CPS should come to your house with your attitude. What kind of parent are you to keep it quiet?

88

 May 10, 2012 at 09:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #78  
Anonymous Says:

unfortanly living in this heimish community, if god forbid this would happen to a family member of mine, i would not report, due to the reprecussion, its so sad, and I admire all the parents that do report, but i wouldnt have the courage to withstand the alianation that comes with it. I support you 100% mr. youngreis but you werent born yesterday you knew you would be bashed. how sad for you and your family.

Thank G-d the NYT has brought attention to this. It is long overdue and I hope the writers are not threatened with death threats or withdrawal of ads.

89

 May 10, 2012 at 09:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #79  
AbuseInDivorce Says:

How about the many cases of couples going thru a divorce, in which one spouse encourage their children and coaces them to lie and make false allegations of abuse against the other spouse, in order to win favor in the eyes of the divorce court?

This is well known, common in all circles, and almost expected by judges and lawyers. These allegations are often rejected, as the falsehood in them is obvious. The accuser often gets into worse trouble, as the failure to report the "abuse" sooner is quite to their detriment. If a lawyer guides a divorcing spouse to create such false accusations, there is serious risk of disbarment. Even if the idea comes from the client, not the attorney, there must be something evidence like (perhaps the raglayim ledovor mentioned earlier) to support the accusation. Otherwise, it cannot be included in any filings in court. A baseless accusation filed by an attorney may risk that lawyer's career.

90

 May 10, 2012 at 10:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Why the jew hating press?? Says:

Why are they talking to the jew hating press? There is no logical reason to do so. Z'chusim are NOT being attained by this.

I'll give you one good guess. Nope, you're wrong. It's because, as the article correctly states, the RABBINIC LEADERS and friends and neighbors shun those who have the guts and no choice but to speak out. So that's basically why the RABBINIC LEADERS endorsing (read: forcing) our community to go to the Asifa will not see me there.

91

 May 10, 2012 at 10:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #84  
HappyInMonsey Says:

Rabbi Weingarten is innocent? Did you speak to even one of the dozens of victims he molested over his career? You simply don't get it. Nuchem Rosenberg is right. The Rabbonim are covering up. I'm not here to speculate about motives but everything you hear from them is smoke and mirrors. The entire community knows the emperor has no clothes and this is reflected in the many OTD teens we see.

There is a special Gehinnom for molesters; conversely, there is a special place in Gan Eden for Rabbi Rosenberg, Tzvi Gluck, Mark Appel, Rabbi Tannenbaum,.Asher Lipner....

92

 May 10, 2012 at 10:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #78  
Anonymous Says:

unfortanly living in this heimish community, if god forbid this would happen to a family member of mine, i would not report, due to the reprecussion, its so sad, and I admire all the parents that do report, but i wouldnt have the courage to withstand the alianation that comes with it. I support you 100% mr. youngreis but you werent born yesterday you knew you would be bashed. how sad for you and your family.

You are a pathetic creature, since I can't call you a human considering you wouldn't defend or help your own flesh and blood for the sake of repercussions. You make me sick.

93

 May 11, 2012 at 12:58 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #78  
Anonymous Says:

unfortanly living in this heimish community, if god forbid this would happen to a family member of mine, i would not report, due to the reprecussion, its so sad, and I admire all the parents that do report, but i wouldnt have the courage to withstand the alianation that comes with it. I support you 100% mr. youngreis but you werent born yesterday you knew you would be bashed. how sad for you and your family.

People who are to fail to protect their children from irreparable harm because they are afraid, really have no business being parents.

94

 May 11, 2012 at 01:15 AM esther Says:

Reply to #80  
Anonymous Says:

One point you make is correct. Leave the punishment in the hands of G-d. He really doesn't need our help. People should make the necessary Hishtadlus and leave the rest to Him.

when you say our hishtadlus,does that include running a child molester over with my car because that's what i'd really,really like to do.

95

 May 11, 2012 at 01:47 AM The_Beadle Says:

Reply to #54  
LebidikYankel Says:

There is a real issue with determining guilt on the basis of an allegation, especially a child's. This is one major problem in taking action against molesters.
Saying that people are just callous and wicked is immature, in my opinion.

Do you think that everyone (police, courts, etc) will just believe the child completely without doing any investigation?

They have trained proffesionals who can look into any claims made and determine the likelihood of truth.

96

 May 11, 2012 at 01:50 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #62  
This is the position adopted by the Agudah. Says:

This is the position adopted by the Agudah.

really ask agudah if they can name 2 or 3 people that they gave permission for the parents to go to the police?

It is twisted that someone should even think of going to the Agudah to ask permission to go to the police if they believe there is a chance their child is being sexually abused.

97

 May 11, 2012 at 07:03 AM Brighton Beach Belz Says:

Until the rabbonim STOP protecting the sex offenders, nothing will change. We are empowering these "leaders" to ruin lives of innocent Yidden, by allowing them to honor these rapists with aliyas, kavod, and saying nothing when the rabbonim throw out of the shul NOT the rapists but the mentch who reports them. This my friends is NOT Yiddeshkeit!

98

 May 11, 2012 at 08:33 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #77  
May 12, 2003 Says:

(Reply to #73): Would you accept the confession of a child rapist/killer as evidence? Google the name "Michael Briere." In 2003, he kidnapped ten year old Holly Jones in Toronto. He sexually assaulted her, killed her, and dismembered her body. Briere pleaded guilty to the crime, which he then described as "cruel, inhuman, and nightmarish," claiming he wished to spare his victim's family the pain of a trial. He received an automatic life sentence and will not be eligible to apply for parole for 25 years.

In court, he attributed his actions to viewing child pornography, a claim which resulted in considerable public debate about pornography in Canada.
Briere said he was sitting in his home viewing child pornography, when he suddenly felt the urge to "act on what he was viewing." By his own account, the hideous crime he committed was spurred by his increasing and insatiable appetite for viewing child porn. Unfortunately, Holly was walking by his home when he felt the impulse to rape a child. He literally grabbed her off the street. Shabbos will be the nine year anniversary of her violent death.

No scientist would reacha general conclusion based on one case. I asked for research. I'm sure by now, someone has studied this. I donot need to surf to find it. You quoted it - now provide support for your contention.

99

 May 11, 2012 at 08:36 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #86  
Babishka Says:

There is no "scientific study" that says everyone who has looked at porno, becomes a rapist or molester, because it is simply not true. Millions of people look at porno do not become rapists or molesters. I am not saying that it is a good thing to look at porno but it is better to look at CGI porno on the Internet than to rape an actual human being. And you certainly know there was plenty of rape and molesting before the Internet.

You are correct. Neither looking at child porn nor committing a crime against a child are acceptable behavior. But to claim there is a causal relationship is a powerful statement that requires backup. And those making that claim here have failed to do more than say, "Look it up on the internet." I am well acquainted with the ease of placing inaccurate or unproven information on the internet, where it is easily accepted as "fact". If you don't believe me, try modifying info on Wikipedia.

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 May 11, 2012 at 08:38 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #91  
Anonymous Says:

There is a special Gehinnom for molesters; conversely, there is a special place in Gan Eden for Rabbi Rosenberg, Tzvi Gluck, Mark Appel, Rabbi Tannenbaum,.Asher Lipner....

I disagree on some of those you mention. They are no longer doing anything to protect children, only destroying people. I know Tzvi Gluck to be tzaddik, who extends himself anytime and anywhere help people. He is not addicted to maligning anyone, even those who have wronged him. He has extended himself to help even those who he knows have participated in coverups and sabotage. Some of the other names belong with the molesters.

101

 May 11, 2012 at 12:02 PM InformedConsent Says:

Reply to #37  
mythoughts Says:

You write:

"There is no Rav who has any credibility that will differentiate in public or private. A person who has committed sexual abuse on a child must be handed over to the law."

Ha ha. Good joke. How many molesters have been handed over to authorities by a Rav? You're living in a self imposed dream land.

I'm not sure you read my entire post, but just to reiterate, my position is that a Rav who knows for certain that one is a sexual predator will always hand them over to the police - if they have any credibility. That's a big.

102

 May 11, 2012 at 02:35 PM bracha18 Says:

Dear Rabbi Jungreis and all those who have suffered unspeakable abuse:
I am so sorry for all the pain you have had to endure- physically, emotionally and so much more. I am sorry that the community, friends and Rabbi's you trusted turned their backs on you and pourd salt on your open wounds.
at the end of the artice- you ask has anyone said a nice word? and i know that the answer is no. unfortunately our community has a lot of tshuva to do and a lon way to go. focus on music bans and other important stuff does not come close to the issue of molestation- when oh when will they say ENOUGH!!! i am here - although i am a nobody- to tell you a good word.
You are very special for coming out.
dont ever let the abuse of the community ever doubt
that what you are doing is a noble thing
saving even ONE more innocent child from suffering!!
when one is unfortunately sexually abused
their spark of life they instantly lose
the scars and the burns forever remain
etched deep in their hearts and always on their brain
this world we live in is "sheker hachein"
don't ever give up talking- IT IS NOT YOU WHO SHOULD FEEL SHAME!!
Mi she"amar dai- amar dai l'tzarosai!!!!

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 May 11, 2012 at 02:47 PM bracha18 Says:

cont.
we cry and we daven- mashiach we want
so we do we let murderes continue their hunt
they prey on weak innocent children so pure
and ruin their life and their families and more
when will our leaders wake up and see the will of HASHEM?
does HE really want us to protect the murderer pedophiles- and them defend?
HaShem is a baal rachamim and surely there is no way
that we should have misplaced compassion on a RASHA - he wold NEVER say!
the victim is the child who has been hurt so deeply- its so clear
why do we defend those who hurt and allow them to stay near?
is it only when it happens to yenem
that we say "oh he is a moiser, he will burn in gehinnom?"
what will you do
if it happens to you?
if your child is the one who was abused
surely then, you will say there must be a change
we must fix this system we can not allow for others to cause such pain
How many children will it take to see
that by protecting the pedophile-we are part of this sin and travesty.
when society does not protect our precious children
are we not like pharoh who had then in bricks built in
just keep them quite- silence their voice
our community is too great to hear such ugly noise

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 May 11, 2012 at 02:57 PM bracha18 Says:

cont.
molesters? pedohiles? abusers? in our midst?
there is no way that it is possible that they do exsist
we are so holy, we learn and we pray
we do mitzvos with each hiddur every single day
my message to you Rabbi Jungries- is this-
do not give up fighting for your rights as HaShems- yiddish kind!
HaShem loves you and your son
and the hundreds of tortured victims- he loves each and every one
this word is filled with sheker- "sheker HaChein"
but in HaShem's world - only the EMES- truth remains
carry on like pinchas and so many of our leaders
who fought for the things that they believed in
your day will come- when you will be healed
in olam hames- all will be revealed
thousands of neshamos will come marching thru
all of them will come to running directly to you
thank you for standing up for our spilled blood
you have no idea how much naches you gave to HaShem up above
the stronger the resistance down below in the world
the greater your cause is to push and prevail
this blodshed must stop
and the facade must be dropped
children, neshamos and doires are being left to rot.
must we wait till olam haemes to know the truth
what the HaShem and the Torah wants us to do?!! chazak chazak!

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 May 11, 2012 at 06:34 PM bracha18 Says:

sorry for some grammatical mistakes...and spelling...i was writing quickly...also- i meant that the neshamos will greet you after 120 and thank you for defendin their blood. chazak chazak v'mischazeik!!! you are amongst good company - like Dovid Hamelech who had a difficult life and Shlomo hamelech as he ran the streets screaming "ani shlomo"....athough i did not suffer this kind of abuse baruch HaShmem. May we never know of such pain!!! all of klal yisrael! but my family has been the target of a major frum hate campaign...we had eggs thrown...i a female was beaten twice... schools were called.... shidduchim were stopped...all the works.....i feel your pain of being shunned but i remmind myself that it is us that are the holy ones. i daven and cry rivers of tears to HaShem and i know he hears.....yeish din v'yeish dayin....der velt is nisht hefker in der himmel is nisht kain boidem....we may not see justice in this word but HaShem is EMES and ou are doing the right thing!!!! please dont let them silence you !!!! have a great shabbos!!!

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 Apr 19, 2013 at 01:39 AM jpeditor Says:

Reply to #10  
sechelyoshor Says:

Well in that article, we read that a mother of a molested child approached Jungreis and told him she had kept quiet so why didn't he. So we learn from this that the "mitzvah" to keep quiet runs deep in the community...

The main reason is that once they report it, the family of the victim has a hard time marrying off their kids because people presume they have serious psychological issues, especially the victim. This is a sad truth. There is no easy solution.

The one who should have a hard time marrying off their kids is the FAMILY OF THE ABUSER.

If you don't want families of the abused running to the police, then PUNISH THE ABUSERS.

I will tell you this, if I caught this this guy molesting one of my kids, they'd find him with his schmeckle in his mouth. LET HIS FAMILY MOVE ACROSS THE WORLD in shame.

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