Brooklyn NY – DA’s Office To Charedi Community: Social Ostracism Will Be Considered Witness Intimidation

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    Brooklyn prosecutor Michael VecchioneNew York – The chief of the Brooklyn district attorney’s rackets bureau and a member of the DA’s new task force to combat witness intimidation in the ultra-Orthodox community indicated a willingness to explore all available avenues to tamp down on the problem — including “[picking] up the phone and [calling] the U.S. attorney.”

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    Michael Vecchione’s comments came Tuesday in an interview with The Jewish Week, and they suggest an openness to receiving information from community members in sex abuse cases that his own boss, DA Charles Hynes — at least based on his recent statements to the press — appears to lack.

    In public statements over the course of the past few weeks, Hynes has described the problem of intimidation of Orthodox abuse victims as worse than anything he has seen in organized crime or police corruption cases.

    “We should not be limited by what [people in the community] believe intimidation is,” Vecchione said in response to a comment by The Jewish Week that many in the community fear that threats of social ostracism themselves may not be actionable as a form of intimidation.

    “[Ostracism] could be [intimidation],” he asserted, noting that “the statute is specific yet broad enough, and there is a catch-all phrase that would get us into that.

    “We should be limited by nothing,” Vecchione continued, adding that “[community members] should just bring to us what they have and then we will go from there.”

    “[Ostracism] could be [intimidation],” he asserted, noting that “the statute is specific yet broad enough, and there is a catch-all phrase that would get us into that.

    Full story at The Jewish Week


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    51 Comments
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    11 years ago

    I would love to see several minyanim of goons convicted and jailed for witness tampering. The concept of “mesirah” applied when laws were inequitably applied against Jews by foreign despots. The plaintiff never promised the accuser that they wouldn’t pursue a conviction for their despicable acts. In cases of verifiable abuse when there is no difference in prosecution made on whether the accused has a beard or not, the rights of the plaintiff to seek redress can NEVER be subordinated to inapplicable and misleading piskei halachah taken out of context.

    shredready
    shredready
    11 years ago

    hopefully some will be jailed and only them will the leaders change their tone

    RebKlemson
    RebKlemson
    11 years ago

    wow theyre really going all out with this. reb hynes is reacting to immense pressure from high up the chain, he cant look away anymore. I bet whoever leaked this original topic to the nytimes is already being ostracized if not dead already

    troubledkid
    troubledkid
    11 years ago

    How can ignoring someone be considered intimidation? Example, Reuven is accused of a crime. Shimon is going to testify against him. Levi is a friend of Shimon and holds that testifying would constitute Mesira. Levi decides to cut contact with Shimon. Charles Hynes can now prosecute Levi for witness intimidation! That means that the United States government can tell Levi who to eat dinner with and who not? This is absolutely insane and open to tremendous amount of judicial abuse! In my humble opinion this is as unconstitutional as it gets!
    PS there is no precedent for this and no reason to assume any judge in his right mind would set one.
    PPS sorry Mr. Hynes in your zeal to placate the Chareidi haters you are making a huge fool out of yourself

    PMOinFL
    PMOinFL
    11 years ago

    Ostracism is certainly intimidation in our community.

    Ostracism means that your children will not marry.
    Ostracism means rejection from yeshivos.
    Ostracism means a fate worse than physical beating.

    No parent should be forced to choose between getting legitimate justice and closure for their child who has been abused and the social consequences to the rest of the family.

    The law is the law. Dina d’malchusa, dina. If our rabbonim were capable, or properly equipped to deal with these issues, we would not be in this position. However, they have FAILED. There is no question about it. Victims keep piling up while rapists walk around free to taunt them, to spit on them, to flaunt their freedom. Victims are left broken, with no feeling of justice being served, no closure, no nothing. Their parents threaten them not to talk about it for fear of messing up shidduch prospects for their siblings. With no outlets for their overwhelming feelings of shame, victimization, and depression, they turn to drugs and alcohol and look OUTSIDE the community for relief… and fall off the derech.

    How many are we willing to lose to protect a few rapists?

    11 years ago

    Thank G-d there will be justice for our thousands of kinder. Today is a good day for us who have been abused in our schools and shuls.

    RabbiDoctor
    RabbiDoctor
    11 years ago

    Now that you see what the professor has to say, ask a Ruv if you want to know the emmes

    yosi7
    yosi7
    11 years ago

    O.K. the Jews who are mosrim and will put another Jew in jail without a bais din can go to Charles Hynes church. He will be welcomed there. Jews that want to remain faithful Jews should go to bais din first or have to join hynes in Christmass carols. these mosrim have no place in Judaism,

    11 years ago

    Yosi, I pray you don’t have any children with that attitude. Four of my sons were abused in shul. This law will protect the rest of my sons. When we complained about the four abuses, my sons were expelled from school. That can’t happen anymore. Thanks to this blog and others for keeping intimidation out in the public eye. We’re just not going to take this anymore. EVER

    11 years ago

    Agreed, this is a serious issue. Sadly, it’s becoming a political one and the victims will again be the ones suffering for it. Hynes should not stoop to the level of the Rosenberg gang’s level. They are obviously exerting pressure and he’s bowing to it. sad.

    shlomogabai
    shlomogabai
    11 years ago

    Oh, so now, I’ll be charged with witness intimidation for not taking them for a mechutan?! that sounds sooo funny! how about forcing me to talk to anybody! hilarious! Well, here’s the deal. I’ll look up the halachos of mesira (aka ratting), and will discuss it with my local rav, and whatever my conclusion is, I’ll follow it! I won’t be intimidated by anyone claiming to be a “professional” to interpret my beloved torah! I’m not planning on having bum hynes define halacha for me! Soo unless he wants to come and force me to talk to anybody, or to marry anybody, he’s not going to win this one! (unless by learning and discussing the halacha I come to the conclusion that it’s permissible for a yid to be moser.)

    SandraM
    SandraM
    11 years ago

    I am against Big Brother. The US gov’t has WAY too much power. However, a chessed is being done by Hynes to the community.
    We do have to smoke out every abuser – and abuser is akin to a shofech damim, except that many times, abusers go on to become abusers, so its starts a deadly vicious cycle.
    Its Tough Love, but its needed to save the kids. They come first and are the guarantors for the future.

    Anon Ibid Opcit
    Anon Ibid Opcit
    11 years ago

    Good. It’s meant as a method of intimidation and extortion. It should be treated that way.

    joseph
    joseph
    11 years ago

    The DA quoted above NEVER said ostracism is intimidation under NYS law. The Jewish Week reporter asked him that, and tried and hoped he would say that, but that was not his response or comment.

    Ben_Kol
    Ben_Kol
    11 years ago

    Child rape and molestation can destroy the victim’s life; it is a form of murder.
    If there is a murder loose in the community, and the only way of stopping him is to report him to the police, every rabbi would agree that we must report him. Ditto for child rapists and molesters. It’s really that simple.

    Those rabbis who feel that such people should not reported are obviously unaware of how serious child molestation is.

    honestbroker
    honestbroker
    11 years ago

    WOW
    talk about your lynch mob mentality!
    No decent person will condone abuse of a child, however it appears that with accusations of this ilk, in the court of public opinion, not to mnention a court of law, the accused is oftten guilty until proven innocent. For those of you quoting poskim that consider a child molester a rodef(Sheree??), I would opine that only applies AFTER the accused has been proven guilty. Many of us here know of someone that was unjustly accused of this ghastly crime, and had their lives ruined because of a false molestation accusation. I personally know of two individules, and I’m sure many of you do as well.
    As for you #10 , somthing about your story smells fishy. What are the odds of 4 children in 1 family being abused in the same shul. If in fact it it did happen, you are almost as guily as the alleged perpetrator for not changing shuls after the first one. and perhaps should have your children removed from your home for not acting once again after the second, third , and fourth one!!!
    Hey I’m just saying……….

    Yossi_Schochet
    Yossi_Schochet
    11 years ago

    So let me get this straight…if I refuse to make a shidduch with a mosser – I am tampering with a witness?! If I don’t sit next to a snitch in sheel – I am intimidating?! When I don’t invite the mosser to my simcha…when I don’t respond to his “git shabbus”…if I cross the street when I see him coming towards me…is that a crime????

    Butterfly
    Butterfly
    11 years ago

    To #10 It is the yeshivas loss. I feel for you . It is also about time that the names of these Yeshivas were made public. This is not what our yeshivas were built for!! Our original yeshivas were not money making sponges!! They were places of learning. Hashem should a parent if he does not have the tuition on time!! Out goes the kid!! My late father z”l, was shocked at the tuition bills I used to pay!! He used to say — For Yeshiva? Incredulously?

    LebidikYankel
    LebidikYankel
    11 years ago

    My dear Professor:
    Someone as learned as you surely knows there is two concepts of Rodef in halacha. Perhaps you refer to “Rodef Es Hatzibur” which permits mesira. (Shulchan Aruch) This is not to be confused with the classic Rodef, who is considered “Ein lo Damim” – his life is forfeit. Are you absolutely sure Rav Elyashiv considered him someone who is putting another’s life in mortal danger??? It sounds pretty odd….
    Okay, who is considered someone who is a troublemaker for the Tzibbur – a one-time molester? Or does it need to be someone who cannot keep his hands off kids? I don’t know, and that is why I would ask a Rav.
    Is someone reporting to today’s govt. considered a Rodef? Rabbi Elyashiv says YES (in the very tshuvah you quote) and the Aruch Hashulchan you refer to is not generally understood seriously (except by the Tzitz Eliezer). I would consider it a minority opinion.
    I would like go into the particulars of Dina Dmalchusa with you, have you ever learnt the pertinent halachos from the Shulchan Aruch? (vs. seen s/th on a blog…)