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Jerusalem - R’ Ovadia Yosef: It Is Forbidden To Expel Children From Yeshiva

Published on: June 11, 2012 04:15 PM
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Jerusalem - In an impassioned plea to teachers and mechanchim everywhere, HaRav Ovadia Yosef cautioned schools that it is completely unacceptable to expel children from yeshivos, even if they exhibit negative behavior.

In a video that was originally posted by Israeli news source Kikar Shabat, R’ Yosef extolled the virtue of patience, stressing its importance for those in the field of chinuch.

“I ask the principals in all of our schools to pay extra attention to their students,” said R’ Yosef.  “Even if there is a student who behaves inappropriately, it is still forbidden to throw him out of school and instead we must exercise extreme patience.  Toiling in the field of chinuch is indeed work and we have to be patient with each and every student.  If we are patient with this student, one day he can grow up to be a talmid chochom.  And if we send him away from the yeshiva where will he go?  To a secular school and then what will become of him?”

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R’ Yosef recounted an incident that occurred when he was in Yeshiva Porat Yosef and was called on to substitute for a teacher who had taken ill.  The principal cautioned him that one student, a boy of fifteen, was known as a perpetual troublemaker and R’ Yosef described how he took the student aside and told him that one day he would become a great talmid chochom.

“I took him next to me,” remembered Rabbi Yosef, “and every few minutes I would ask him what he thought as we learned the gemara.  He was too embarrassed to make any trouble and he grew up to be a rosh yeshiva in Tel Aviv.  Why?  Because I knew how to speak to him.”

Calling the act of expelling a child a life or death situation, R’ Yosef cautioned listeners that in the days of the Sanhedrin, it took a group of twenty three sages to decide on matters that were classified as “dinei nefashos” and warned mechanchim that as individuals, they lacked the authority to make decisions that have such far reaching ramifications.

“Don’t throw them out!” exhorted R’ Yosef.  “What, are you throwing away a rock?  These are neshamos!  If you throw a child away, do you know what will be?  Are you ready to take responsibility for what might happen?  We must love these children who will one day become our gedolim.  We need to bring them closer with sweet words so that we can bring them closer to the Torah.”

R’ Yosef urged listeners to treat each child with the same measure of patience they would use for their own children, explaining that if we shower each child with love we will, in turn, receive their love as well.



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Read Comments (39)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Jun 11, 2012 at 04:29 PM Anonymous Says:

If a child is expelled from or has a terrible experience in a yeshiva, chances are very good they will marry out.

2

 Jun 11, 2012 at 04:34 PM Ina Says:

I am not certain that all children who require extra patience will one day grow to be gedolim. However, I am certain that they will all marry and raise yiddishe families and, perhaps, one of their children might grow to be a gadol. I believe most of us have seen this happen with just this type of child. All of our children are precious and are needed in klal yisrael.

3

 Jun 11, 2012 at 04:46 PM Yipyap Says:

But what if the child has a TV or internet in his home? Why would I want the sort of influence around my children? or what if the boy is a trouble maker making wild accusations against Yeshiva faculty?

4

 Jun 11, 2012 at 04:50 PM Reason Says:

LISTEN TO THIS TZADIKS WORDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

5

 Jun 11, 2012 at 04:52 PM The little I know Says:

Now here come the naysayers – with stupid remarks like “this pertains only to Sefardim, not Ashkenazim. Even the comment above about the child as a “rodef” is murderously inaccurate most of the time. The השפעה of a rebbe who is concerned about his personal kavod is more degrading to the Torah he purports to teach than anything the child can do. To quote one of today’s gedolei haposkim, “The worst the child has done was to connect with טומאה. This rebbe is connected with גאוה. Our Torah teaches us that Hashem is שוכן אתם בתוך טומאתם, dwells among us even in our state of טומאה. However for the בעל גאוה, we are told that אין אני והוא יכולים לדור במקום אחד, I (HKB”H) and the בעל גאוה cannot exist in the same place. We should choose the person even in a state of impurity over the person with the ego.

Most expulsions are the result of anger from the hanhala, and much is based on the image or ego of the yeshiva and/or its menahel or rebbeim. It is rarely based on a misfit of the boy with the yeshiva. If the latter were true, the yeshivos expelling would be dedicated and invested in placing the expelled bochur elsewhere. Sadly, that is the rare exception.

This subject is one of the sore points about today’s chinuch. The gedolim of the previous generations have spoken about this, and the words of Rav Ovadia shlit”a are an echo of what they all said. The serious issue with all this is that our yeshivos tend to not listen to such piskei dinim. Each yeshiva would predictably consider itself an exception, and believe so as consistent with Torah values. There was a psak din many years ago that no yeshiva should expel a student before bringing the matter to a beis din of three dayanim, all of whom have no connection to the yeshiva. I heard this quoted some years ago, and one of the askanim who works with kids at risk described dealing with about 1000 new bochurim each year, all of whom had been thrown out of yeshivos (some more than once), and there was not single instance of even one Rov being consulted. I know, this is kids at risk. But this is one of the major pathways of how they become at risk.

If we tattoo the letters REJECT on a child’s face, we have murdered him. Our gedolim have already spoken, and Rav Ovadia shlit”a disseminated this psak again. מי לה’ אלי, who is ready to listen?

6

 Jun 11, 2012 at 05:02 PM normaljew Says:

I wish Rabbis in US would listen I was thrown out of Yeshiva like a piece of trash because I wasn't an A student in Hebrew studies

7

 Jun 11, 2012 at 05:05 PM ChareidiMan Says:

Why is this not a priority in our community? This is what i call More Important than anything. Yiddishe neshumes going to waste for no good reason other than one person decided that a particular kid does not fit the mold.

I would for once like to hear from our leaders plain simple talk like this. Heart to Heart.

8

 Jun 11, 2012 at 06:27 PM STOMAGUY Says:

Reply to #3  
Yipyap Says:

But what if the child has a TV or internet in his home? Why would I want the sort of influence around my children? or what if the boy is a trouble maker making wild accusations against Yeshiva faculty?

Yipyap, Great question. I wish someone would ask the Rabbi. If the answer is still 'don't throw the kid out', Then I'm off to best buy for my 60 inch plasma tv. It sure is alot easier sticking my kids in front of the tv than trying to raise them right.

9

 Jun 11, 2012 at 06:07 PM Butterfly Says:

I respect this tzadik's words and pose a question: Why when a child is abused, is he /she shown the door of the yeshiva? We keep on reading this in the media and even on VIN ?? Why should this be permitted?

10

 Jun 11, 2012 at 06:06 PM yankey Says:

yes this issue needs a majr asifa more then the internet, all i can say is how much more blood do our so called rishe yeshivas need to spill beofre the Olim Golim wakes up, and relizes that this yeshiva situaion to day is the most dangeruas situaion ever in our history as yidden, a buchir who is not a metizon cannot get acceppted in a yeshiva theese days how much tears the buchir and paretnts shed crying begging but to no avail, and all we have is a big internet asifa because that is an easy subject you cry and life goes on for yeshiva you need work who wants it

11

 Jun 11, 2012 at 06:06 PM very true Says:

Rabbi is saying some holy words that we should all take seriously!

All the gedolim should start speaking up. Our children have been kerbonos long enough.

12

 Jun 11, 2012 at 06:01 PM Anonymous Says:

הרואה את הנולד

This is a character trait one would expect from a חכם, and that is what a Rosh Yeshiva or Menahel purport to be. They have full obligation to be able to predict the outcome of an expulsion. If it will leave the bochur with nowhere to go, then it is spiritual and emotional murder. If the yeshiva is not proactive in finding the next yeshiva for someone that has to leave, it is committing that murder.

What I have watched happen was the attitude of throwing out, letting the child be only his parents' problem. The parents then go on to crying all the time, meeting up with consistent rejections (no one wants to accept a talmid expelled from anywhere). And no one at the expelling yeshiva feels guilty or tries to help. This is a disgrace, and I feel it is anti-Torah.

Not included here are the totally arbitrary reasons given for not admitting talmidim applying. And I have heard some pretty remarkable ones. Shall I share them?

13

 Jun 11, 2012 at 05:48 PM Yossi Says:

I have a neighbor who has his boy in yeshive and there was one BAD apple in the classroom which the Principle had loads of pressure not to throw him out and by the end of the year this innocent boy nebech was shlepped away with that boy.
We dont know where the Stop sign is or the YIELD sign....
Not a single parent will tolerate when their son comes home with bad report cards because of one bad boy...Now the question is what do we call BAD..?
Do we call BAD a kid who dosent listen to his parents and teacher and teaches bad manners to his class mates or is a boy with very weak learning capabilities called bad.?

14

 Jun 11, 2012 at 05:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Yipyap Says:

But what if the child has a TV or internet in his home? Why would I want the sort of influence around my children? or what if the boy is a trouble maker making wild accusations against Yeshiva faculty?

I find your comment disturbing. You, as a parent, have no jurisdiction over the homes of other talmidim. It is chutzpah to twist the arms of a yeshiva to modify what they do to suit your preferences. If the yeshiva is otherwise agreeable to keep a talmid, you have the right to move your child to another yeshiva, not to have this one expelled.

You are also mistaken about the insulation you can have on your child's environment. Even the heilige streets of Boro Park have women who are improperly dressed, whether by technicalities of tznius halachos or in violation of the "spirit of the law". There is likewise no control over their exposure to hundreds of other stimuli. While it is responsible to protect our children from outside forces that are damaging to them, we cannot place them in a bubble that is never airtight. We must be building them with Ahavas Hashem and Yiras Hashem to keep them straight.

Every yeshiva will have to deal with wild accusations. Those that are true must be addressed. Those that are not must still be addressed. But kids are NOT disposable. The Rav is correct.

15

 Jun 11, 2012 at 05:30 PM SOSDD Says:

Finally, someone not afraid to speak the truth. I know the internet Asifa is important, and I am mekabail everything the rabbonim say, but aren't the problems we are having in our with the internet, perhaps a manifestation of the failure of our system of chinuch. mechanchim need to remember, kids come first. That is why they are there. One of the most important mitzvos doyrayso, teaching kids.

16

 Jun 11, 2012 at 06:36 PM Anonymous Says:

What unbelievable chochma R Ovadia portrays. Our son was thrown out of Yeshiva in 11th grade and was enrolled in Public school. One of the Rebbeim of his HS found him a yeshiva in EY that took him in. It was mamash Hatzolas Nifashos. He is now sitting in Yerushalayim, at the Mir, and is growing into a huge Talmid Chocham and baal Midos. Menahalim: listen to Rav Ovadia!!!

17

 Jun 11, 2012 at 06:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Yipyap Says:

But what if the child has a TV or internet in his home? Why would I want the sort of influence around my children? or what if the boy is a trouble maker making wild accusations against Yeshiva faculty?

Somebody who can write such a thing on a yiddsh nhasumo I wouldn't want my kids to be next to your kids shame on u

18

 Jun 11, 2012 at 07:40 PM Yosef Says:

I am in full agreement. With harav Yosef .the question is ???? Why is this not understood by all bnei Torah? Could it be they chas vshalom. Do not belong in chinuch???please find another profession. .for example street cleaning.

19

 Jun 11, 2012 at 08:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
The little I know Says:

Now here come the naysayers – with stupid remarks like “this pertains only to Sefardim, not Ashkenazim. Even the comment above about the child as a “rodef” is murderously inaccurate most of the time. The השפעה of a rebbe who is concerned about his personal kavod is more degrading to the Torah he purports to teach than anything the child can do. To quote one of today’s gedolei haposkim, “The worst the child has done was to connect with טומאה. This rebbe is connected with גאוה. Our Torah teaches us that Hashem is שוכן אתם בתוך טומאתם, dwells among us even in our state of טומאה. However for the בעל גאוה, we are told that אין אני והוא יכולים לדור במקום אחד, I (HKB”H) and the בעל גאוה cannot exist in the same place. We should choose the person even in a state of impurity over the person with the ego.

Most expulsions are the result of anger from the hanhala, and much is based on the image or ego of the yeshiva and/or its menahel or rebbeim. It is rarely based on a misfit of the boy with the yeshiva. If the latter were true, the yeshivos expelling would be dedicated and invested in placing the expelled bochur elsewhere. Sadly, that is the rare exception.

This subject is one of the sore points about today’s chinuch. The gedolim of the previous generations have spoken about this, and the words of Rav Ovadia shlit”a are an echo of what they all said. The serious issue with all this is that our yeshivos tend to not listen to such piskei dinim. Each yeshiva would predictably consider itself an exception, and believe so as consistent with Torah values. There was a psak din many years ago that no yeshiva should expel a student before bringing the matter to a beis din of three dayanim, all of whom have no connection to the yeshiva. I heard this quoted some years ago, and one of the askanim who works with kids at risk described dealing with about 1000 new bochurim each year, all of whom had been thrown out of yeshivos (some more than once), and there was not single instance of even one Rov being consulted. I know, this is kids at risk. But this is one of the major pathways of how they become at risk.

If we tattoo the letters REJECT on a child’s face, we have murdered him. Our gedolim have already spoken, and Rav Ovadia shlit”a disseminated this psak again. מי לה’ אלי, who is ready to listen?

You are so right . But who is ready to listen

20

 Jun 11, 2012 at 09:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Rav Yosef is ordinarily right on most matters but in this case, his psak should only be taken so far. When a student becomes so disruptive that his/her behavior makes learning impossible for the other students AND the parents refuse to get the professional help the student needs, then the administrators MUST expell that student. Its not even a close call. The school can only do so much and the parents must cooperater. If they don't, its simply unfair to other students whose parents are spending thousands of dollars to get their children a yiddeshe chinuch. Their hard-earned dollars are literally being stolen from them if the school fails to take action to to maintain the learning environment. In these cases, Rav Yosef's psak should be considered but not considered binding

21

 Jun 11, 2012 at 10:07 PM ChachoMoe Says:

Reply to #13  
Yossi Says:

I have a neighbor who has his boy in yeshive and there was one BAD apple in the classroom which the Principle had loads of pressure not to throw him out and by the end of the year this innocent boy nebech was shlepped away with that boy.
We dont know where the Stop sign is or the YIELD sign....
Not a single parent will tolerate when their son comes home with bad report cards because of one bad boy...Now the question is what do we call BAD..?
Do we call BAD a kid who dosent listen to his parents and teacher and teaches bad manners to his class mates or is a boy with very weak learning capabilities called bad.?

While you have a point, but in most scenarios is not the case. Yeshiva's will do what is best for themselves, w/o considering the well-being of the boy, i.e. their name, respect, control, or in most cases, have ZERO experience how to handle anything... not day-to-day case, and therefore resort to the "power stressing move" (showing all the boys: who's the boss around here!; all on the account of the entire life of these somewhat misguided boy(s)!

Rav Ovadia and the Chazon Ish as well, hold that it is indeed דיני נפשות -- where is the OUTCRY of the Soul-Murdering Yeshivot!!!?!!!

In your case, there is no doubt that a Bet-Din MUST be set up, and each and every Yeshiva will have to appear and present their case along with the boy (yes, even a שור הנסקל has to be present when in session) !! It is no different than any שאלה; especially that it is so significant, and in many cases ruined the entire life of a innocent neshamah!

Any Yeshiva not abiding to those principles, should be denounced and not receive a single donation!!

I suggest, we should all use the power of the internet, and be מפרסם these selfish yeshivot, and let all decide if we want to donate anything.

22

 Jun 11, 2012 at 10:19 PM Chachom Says:

Reply to #5  
The little I know Says:

Now here come the naysayers – with stupid remarks like “this pertains only to Sefardim, not Ashkenazim. Even the comment above about the child as a “rodef” is murderously inaccurate most of the time. The השפעה of a rebbe who is concerned about his personal kavod is more degrading to the Torah he purports to teach than anything the child can do. To quote one of today’s gedolei haposkim, “The worst the child has done was to connect with טומאה. This rebbe is connected with גאוה. Our Torah teaches us that Hashem is שוכן אתם בתוך טומאתם, dwells among us even in our state of טומאה. However for the בעל גאוה, we are told that אין אני והוא יכולים לדור במקום אחד, I (HKB”H) and the בעל גאוה cannot exist in the same place. We should choose the person even in a state of impurity over the person with the ego.

Most expulsions are the result of anger from the hanhala, and much is based on the image or ego of the yeshiva and/or its menahel or rebbeim. It is rarely based on a misfit of the boy with the yeshiva. If the latter were true, the yeshivos expelling would be dedicated and invested in placing the expelled bochur elsewhere. Sadly, that is the rare exception.

This subject is one of the sore points about today’s chinuch. The gedolim of the previous generations have spoken about this, and the words of Rav Ovadia shlit”a are an echo of what they all said. The serious issue with all this is that our yeshivos tend to not listen to such piskei dinim. Each yeshiva would predictably consider itself an exception, and believe so as consistent with Torah values. There was a psak din many years ago that no yeshiva should expel a student before bringing the matter to a beis din of three dayanim, all of whom have no connection to the yeshiva. I heard this quoted some years ago, and one of the askanim who works with kids at risk described dealing with about 1000 new bochurim each year, all of whom had been thrown out of yeshivos (some more than once), and there was not single instance of even one Rov being consulted. I know, this is kids at risk. But this is one of the major pathways of how they become at risk.

If we tattoo the letters REJECT on a child’s face, we have murdered him. Our gedolim have already spoken, and Rav Ovadia shlit”a disseminated this psak again. מי לה’ אלי, who is ready to listen?

You hit it on the mark! These Yeshivot are guilty of murder; they are no diff than someone who decides on his own דיני נפשות and then goes ahead and acts out on his own self-centered P'sak, he would be considered nothing less than a common murder. How can anyone have any respect for those roshei yeshivot??

Again, nothing will be done. However, we as the common-folk should start to announce all Yeshivot guilty of the above, let it be by blogging, sites, etc.

Start naming those scoundrels...and let the pockets decide!

23

 Jun 12, 2012 at 02:05 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Yosef is ordinarily right on most matters but in this case, his psak should only be taken so far. When a student becomes so disruptive that his/her behavior makes learning impossible for the other students AND the parents refuse to get the professional help the student needs, then the administrators MUST expell that student. Its not even a close call. The school can only do so much and the parents must cooperater. If they don't, its simply unfair to other students whose parents are spending thousands of dollars to get their children a yiddeshe chinuch. Their hard-earned dollars are literally being stolen from them if the school fails to take action to to maintain the learning environment. In these cases, Rav Yosef's psak should be considered but not considered binding

All rav Yosef said, a beis din should decide. A rosh yeshive cannot by himself be dan dinei nefoshois.

24

 Jun 12, 2012 at 07:17 AM bewhiskered Says:

Reply to #3  
Yipyap Says:

But what if the child has a TV or internet in his home? Why would I want the sort of influence around my children? or what if the boy is a trouble maker making wild accusations against Yeshiva faculty?

"But what if the child has a TV or internet in his home?"

If there was ever a case of טובל ושרץ בידו, you are it! You wouldn't want the influence of the Internet around your children, but, here you are, prominently posting your ridiculous opinions on-line! Does the term hypocrisy have any special significance for you?

25

 Jun 12, 2012 at 12:43 AM notthatsmart Says:

Reply to #20  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Yosef is ordinarily right on most matters but in this case, his psak should only be taken so far. When a student becomes so disruptive that his/her behavior makes learning impossible for the other students AND the parents refuse to get the professional help the student needs, then the administrators MUST expell that student. Its not even a close call. The school can only do so much and the parents must cooperater. If they don't, its simply unfair to other students whose parents are spending thousands of dollars to get their children a yiddeshe chinuch. Their hard-earned dollars are literally being stolen from them if the school fails to take action to to maintain the learning environment. In these cases, Rav Yosef's psak should be considered but not considered binding

Who are you to tell us when Rav Yosef's psak should be binding? If you wish to make halachik rulings for us, it would be helpful to post your name. You might be right, but I don't think you should be adding caveats to a psak from a gadol.

Schools don't have to make a choice of either keeping a disruptive kid in class and ruining other kids education, or throwing them out. There are many options out there if they're willing to put in the effort. Even if the kid's parents don't follow the school's advice, they have no right to hold that against the kid. A lot of schools I've been to have the attitude that they have to do what's best for the majority of the school and the collateral damage is unavoidable and necessary. This is a horrible attitude and needs to be changed!

26

 Jun 12, 2012 at 09:52 AM tired Says:

Who are our principals who is our chinuch is it the ones that hide the the rabbis and teachers that molester our kids and let them continue teaching and what ever else comes with it, or the ones that teach us you don’t have to have respect for fellow driver or neighbor if he is not like you ,or sit in court and fight each other ,or is it the ones that can say all our failure in the past 15 years is you guess it its your fathers phone, but if you have a few dollars for us your phone is good your wife shoes are good your daughters dress is not tight at all its all good , so lets not waist time its all power and business and if you don't sorry to say you are etc............

27

 Jun 12, 2012 at 10:25 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #25  
notthatsmart Says:

Who are you to tell us when Rav Yosef's psak should be binding? If you wish to make halachik rulings for us, it would be helpful to post your name. You might be right, but I don't think you should be adding caveats to a psak from a gadol.

Schools don't have to make a choice of either keeping a disruptive kid in class and ruining other kids education, or throwing them out. There are many options out there if they're willing to put in the effort. Even if the kid's parents don't follow the school's advice, they have no right to hold that against the kid. A lot of schools I've been to have the attitude that they have to do what's best for the majority of the school and the collateral damage is unavoidable and necessary. This is a horrible attitude and needs to be changed!

Obviously, you have never worked in a classroom. In a small number of cases, there are limits to what a conventional yeshiva with limited resources can do to accomodate the behavior of a disruptive child whose legal, custodial parents refuse to cooperate in getting him/her the help needed. Given the choice between losing weeks or months of critical time for chinuch for all the other kids, expuslion must remain an option on the table for those hopefully infrequent circumstances. To say NEVER, as the Rav's psak implies, is unfortunately simplifying a complex situation and ignoring reality.

28

 Jun 12, 2012 at 10:29 AM tellall Says:

And what about Yeshivos expelling children because the parents cannot afford the outrageous tuition some Yeshivos charge !!! Especially when so many children these days need special education !!! What happens to those kids ??? Who is speaking on their behalf?

29

 Jun 12, 2012 at 09:42 AM yankey Says:

Reply to #3  
Yipyap Says:

But what if the child has a TV or internet in his home? Why would I want the sort of influence around my children? or what if the boy is a trouble maker making wild accusations against Yeshiva faculty?

you see your problem is you bring up the worse case scenario ,the problem we have is that kids are getting thrown out of yeshivas for much more simpleier thinks , I know a buchir was kicked out because he was warned 3 times to come to daven on time and he failed ,so he was kicked out and no other yeshiva would accept him ,who is talking about a buchir with TV you are way off ,this problem is huge the answer should be you can’t throw out a Buchir unless you secure him another yeshiva ,don’t let them on the street, and giving bad information so nobody would accept him, does a buchir coming late to daven have to end up in public school? even he is guilty come on wake up

30

 Jun 12, 2012 at 10:04 AM Yipyap Says:

Reply to #24  
bewhiskered Says:

"But what if the child has a TV or internet in his home?"

If there was ever a case of טובל ושרץ בידו, you are it! You wouldn't want the influence of the Internet around your children, but, here you are, prominently posting your ridiculous opinions on-line! Does the term hypocrisy have any special significance for you?

Well Mr./Ms. Smarty Pants, did you ever think maybe I have a heter from my rav to use my filtered computer for business purposes?

31

 Jun 12, 2012 at 11:08 AM ChachoMoe Says:

Reply to #27  
Anonymous Says:

Obviously, you have never worked in a classroom. In a small number of cases, there are limits to what a conventional yeshiva with limited resources can do to accomodate the behavior of a disruptive child whose legal, custodial parents refuse to cooperate in getting him/her the help needed. Given the choice between losing weeks or months of critical time for chinuch for all the other kids, expuslion must remain an option on the table for those hopefully infrequent circumstances. To say NEVER, as the Rav's psak implies, is unfortunately simplifying a complex situation and ignoring reality.

That is precisely the point, that cases like these should be presented to a Beth Din, and they should decided - NOT the Yeshiva who is looking for the easy way out. No Yeshiva should be allowed to act w/o presenting its case along with the accused, in front of an external Beth Din.

32

 Jun 12, 2012 at 12:17 PM notthatsmart Says:

Reply to #27  
Anonymous Says:

Obviously, you have never worked in a classroom. In a small number of cases, there are limits to what a conventional yeshiva with limited resources can do to accomodate the behavior of a disruptive child whose legal, custodial parents refuse to cooperate in getting him/her the help needed. Given the choice between losing weeks or months of critical time for chinuch for all the other kids, expuslion must remain an option on the table for those hopefully infrequent circumstances. To say NEVER, as the Rav's psak implies, is unfortunately simplifying a complex situation and ignoring reality.

I'm not saying there's never a time that a kid doesn't need to be moved to a different school. I am saying that Rav Yosef said you can't expel a kid and you should not be altering his psak to fit your opinions. Perhaps he would agree with you in some cases that kids should be expelled if there's no other choice (not likely IMO, b/c there are almost always options), but don't presume to know enough to decide when we should or shouldn't listen to him. It seems to me that schools focus way too much on academic accomplishments/learning a certain amount and not enough on middos and the results are alarming.

33

 Jun 12, 2012 at 12:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #32  
notthatsmart Says:

I'm not saying there's never a time that a kid doesn't need to be moved to a different school. I am saying that Rav Yosef said you can't expel a kid and you should not be altering his psak to fit your opinions. Perhaps he would agree with you in some cases that kids should be expelled if there's no other choice (not likely IMO, b/c there are almost always options), but don't presume to know enough to decide when we should or shouldn't listen to him. It seems to me that schools focus way too much on academic accomplishments/learning a certain amount and not enough on middos and the results are alarming.

May I correct you? You referred to yeshivos being preoccupied with focus on academic accomplishments. That is unfortunately incorrect. Actually, the focus is on the image and reputatino of the yeshiva and its hanhala. I realize that this sounds cynical, but I am deeply acquainted with a great many menahalim and roshei yeshivos. Very, very few are oriented toward the personal growth of their talmidim, even at their own expense. Those that are truly dedicated are among the greats of the previous generations. We are a דור יתום in this regard.

If our mechanchim were really the caliber they want us to believe, we would see them being moser nefesh for their talmidim all the time, crying for them. To our horror, we observe the opposite much of the time. It's never too late to fix this, but the drive to do that must be developed.

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 Jun 12, 2012 at 03:57 PM 5towns Says:

There is no evidence that children learning with other children that are "less frum" (ie have internet or TV) negatively influence the other children. There was a recent article by Rabbi Hersh Fried in Hakira magazine that examined this and came to the conclusion that it is in fact beneficial to have heterogeneous classes and the assumption that mixing children from different backgrounds would be detrimental is false and not supported by the evidence.

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 Jun 12, 2012 at 04:23 PM PMOinFL Says:

I must admit I always love to see the stupid parents of equally stupid children blaming other people in the classroom for their kid's poor performance. Genetics, IQ, and quality of education have FAR more to do with it.

Through a kiruv organization I work with, I was recently at a meeting of educators and parents from both the yeshiva and secular world. There was a Jewish secular mother there who nearly caused a riot by using the "n" word to describe the "bad" kids at school. She blames them for her kids' failings. She claims that they have to dumb everything down for them and that they are the reason test scores are so low.

B"H, a teacher had the nerve to stand up and tell it like it was. 2 of this woman's 3 white-trash kids had been left back a grade and were STILL failing. Her other kid had been suspended from high school 6 times in 3 years and spent 2 weeks in prison for selling prescription drugs at school. The idiot, racist parent left in tears.

There are kids learn under the most horrific conditions. Those who have a decent IQ, parents who actually CARE, and who care about themselves go on to great colleges and great careers. Those who make excuses become bums.

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 Jun 12, 2012 at 05:01 PM notthatsmart Says:

Reply to #33  
Anonymous Says:

May I correct you? You referred to yeshivos being preoccupied with focus on academic accomplishments. That is unfortunately incorrect. Actually, the focus is on the image and reputatino of the yeshiva and its hanhala. I realize that this sounds cynical, but I am deeply acquainted with a great many menahalim and roshei yeshivos. Very, very few are oriented toward the personal growth of their talmidim, even at their own expense. Those that are truly dedicated are among the greats of the previous generations. We are a דור יתום in this regard.

If our mechanchim were really the caliber they want us to believe, we would see them being moser nefesh for their talmidim all the time, crying for them. To our horror, we observe the opposite much of the time. It's never too late to fix this, but the drive to do that must be developed.

I don't disagree with you at all, but my point still remains. Regardless of whether they do it for their students, or their own reputations, the schools push their students to do an extreme amount of work. In addition to leaving behind the students who can't keep up, they show them that they care more about their teaching than about their learning.

I do have to say that in my short time in yeshiva (it felt like forever, but I only stayed 4 years), I did have a couple rebbeim and Rosh Yeshivas who really cared. Sadly, they can't make up for the many I had who didn't care and who surely damaged hundreds of students who couldn't ignore them as well as I was able to.

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 Jun 12, 2012 at 05:05 PM Sherree Says:

Reply to #3  
Yipyap Says:

But what if the child has a TV or internet in his home? Why would I want the sort of influence around my children? or what if the boy is a trouble maker making wild accusations against Yeshiva faculty?

What if he got the proper attention, love and care from the Yeshiva in the first place? Then that wouldn't be an issue at all. Follow the logic here!

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 Jun 12, 2012 at 05:09 PM Sherree Says:

Reply to #13  
Yossi Says:

I have a neighbor who has his boy in yeshive and there was one BAD apple in the classroom which the Principle had loads of pressure not to throw him out and by the end of the year this innocent boy nebech was shlepped away with that boy.
We dont know where the Stop sign is or the YIELD sign....
Not a single parent will tolerate when their son comes home with bad report cards because of one bad boy...Now the question is what do we call BAD..?
Do we call BAD a kid who dosent listen to his parents and teacher and teaches bad manners to his class mates or is a boy with very weak learning capabilities called bad.?

Guess what? I know so many OTD boys or those on the verge who were chapped by caring Rabbonim and bochurim who gave a "d..." and schlepped them along to become amazing frum and emesdik bochurim today!!! The glass is also half full it all depends on how you want to look at it and apply common sense, logic and compassion!

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 Jun 14, 2012 at 08:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Yipyap Says:

But what if the child has a TV or internet in his home? Why would I want the sort of influence around my children? or what if the boy is a trouble maker making wild accusations against Yeshiva faculty?

hmmm. really? it seems that YOU have the internet in your home. Unless I'm wrong and you go to the library or a relatives house to surf the net.

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