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New York - Triangle-K: Complaint About Kashrus Issues Of Hebrew National Outrageously False

Published on: June 19, 2012 08:40 AM
By: Rabbi Aryeh Ralbag - Triangle K Kosher Supervision
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New York - Outrageously false and defamatory allegations have been made by anonymous disgruntled individuals against Triangle-K’s  strict rabbinical supervision of Hebrew National products in a complaint filed in court against the company that owns Hebrew National. Those who make the false allegations know full well that because their identities are concealed and their false statements are made in a court pleading, Triangle-K and its principals cannot sue them for defamation. The court complaint is filed on behalf of 11 consumers, none of whom claims to keep kosher, and all allege that they buy Hebrew National products only because they are represented to be “a higher quality product.”

If any person making such an allegation against Triangle-K has the integrity to do so in a manner that subjects him to a defamation lawsuit, Triangle-K and its principals will promptly institute proceedings against that person in a rabbinic court (“Beit Din”) and, if authorized by the rabbinic court, will file a defamation lawsuit against the person, company, or organization responsible for such slander and libel.

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The fact is that, contrary to the defamatory allegations, Triangle-K has substantially increased and improved the kashrut supervision on Hebrew National products since it began its supervision in 2004.

1. Kashrut of the slaughtering operation. – Triangle-K instituted a process under which slaughtering is now done with a team of two or three shochtim constantly in the kill box (depending on each specific plant). Each shochet on the team slaughters not more than a prescribed quota of cattle, and the knife used for the shechitah is examined before and after every slaughter for possible nicks by the shochet or by another member of the team. The team continuously slaughters in rotation. This ensures that no shochet becomes weary and careless and that the knives are always free of nicks. In addition each shochet is required to have numerous knives ready to slaughter with. Contrary to the false anonymous allegation in the court complaint, Hebrew National products are consistently slaughtered in the prescribed manner required to be considered kosher.

2. Examination of cattle before and after shechitah. – Only cattle that are free from physical defects and clean enough are slaughtered for kosher consumption. Triangle-K requires an examination of all cattle to insure that the clean cut necessary for kosher slaughter can be made and that the cattle can, after examination, be qualified for kosher consumption. In addition to prescribing a team of shochtim, Triangle-K instituted the requirement that there be two examiners (“bodkim”). One is a bodek pnim, who examines each animal’s lung while it is still in the animal. The other is a bodek chutz, who examines the animal’s lung after it has been removed and who inflates it. In some plants two bodkei pnim and two bodkei chutz are constantly on the line. Triangle-K represents that Hebrew National’s product is stam kosher, not glatt kosher. Its goal in providing the supervision to Hebrew National products is to make 100% stam kosher meat available to general consumers throughout the United States. Triangle-K also places numerous mashgichim at various points on the production line who make specific markings and simanim to ensure the correct labeling on the kosher-approved cattle.

3. Examination of knives. – Because of the “team” requirement instituted by Triangle-K, the knives used in the slaughtering process are constantly inspected to ensure that they have no nicks. Knives are checked after each shechitah, and if a nick is found the animal is marked non-kosher. Each evening, all Rabbis and shochtim are also required to present their knives to the Rosh-Tsevet (Crew manager) for inspection to make sure the knives do not have any nicks. In addition, cattle are not certified as kosher if an air compressor gun was used on the animal prior to shechitah.

4. Post-slaughter inspection. – All slaughtered cattle are carefully examined by a bodek pnim and by a bodek chutz. It is totally false and defamatory to say, as the court complaint declares anonymously, that the organs of animals used in Hebrew National products are “not consistently inspected after the slaughter.”

5. Removal of blood. – Triangle-K drains all slaughtered cattles’ blood and washes it in accordance with the strictest standards of Jewish Law. Allegations that the soaking, salting and washing are inadequate are totally false. Allegations that the carcass is halachically cooked before it is salted are totally false.

6. Disciplining of shochtim. – Triangle-K has required the dismissal of shochtim and bodkim who failed to comply with the high standards instituted by Triangle-K. It has never reprimanded or subjected to retaliatory measures any employee who objected to the “slaughter of dirty cows.” Nor has the Triangle-K asked any employee “to look the other way” if he saw a violation of kosher laws. Each plant’s head shochet and bodek reports to the Triangle-K on a weekly basis. The shochtim and bodkim are constantly tested and checked in surprise visits by Triangle-K for their knowledge of the halachic material and for their skills. Some shochtim and bodkim whose employment was terminated because of their failure to adhere to Triangle-K’s high standards may have initiated the false allegations on which the court complaint was based.

We strongly re-affirm that the Triangle-K Kashrus symbol on Hebrew National products guarantees that the product is 100% strictly Kosher.

The Triangle K Rabbinic team is always available to answer specific questions about any part of the process of the shechitha. We base our our strict kosher certification on the writings and decisions of the greatest scholars and poskim of the last few hundred years of Rabbinic Jewish law and literature.

Rabbi Ralbag’s can be reached via email: RALBAGA@AOL.COM, RABBIA@THETRIANGLEK.COM



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Read Comments (53)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Jun 19, 2012 at 08:48 AM Anonymous Says:

What is the difference between stam and glatt kosher? I mean the actual definition and process.

2

 Jun 19, 2012 at 08:57 AM shredready Says:

Triangle-K is responding to the accusation in a better way than SMR did to his accusers

3

 Jun 19, 2012 at 08:59 AM ModernLakewoodGuy Says:

What is the biblical halachic source that requires the lungs to be checked in greater detail than how it is currently done with "stam" Kosher?

4

 Jun 19, 2012 at 09:07 AM ESmith Says:

Against Triangle K I would say that it is false to think that those who make the allegations against them will have their identities protected. Triangle K's attorneys should be asking for copies of the affidavits, and the identities will surely come out eventually, and subject these people to possible damage claims and perjury charges.

In favor of Triangle K I would say to all those who speak against them, that they are not that bad. While they do hold with certain kulas on grape juice that are not generally held today, they are not out of left field. I had heard years ago that they had certain oil plants down south that did not have a mashgiach t'midi. I don't know if this is true, but for example I don't think I would have a problem with their hashgacha on raisins.

Nobody really frum eats Hebrew National anyway, nor ate it before it was under the triangle K. There are plenty of choices. But for those in the boondocks they may be a life saver. There are still plenty of places where you cannot get anything else, or where you can, but it is from a store open on Shabbos and owned by a Jew.

Why the big fuss?

5

 Jun 19, 2012 at 09:17 AM ChachoMoe Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

What is the difference between stam and glatt kosher? I mean the actual definition and process.

Glatt refers to the smoothness of the lung, which in some cases is kosher only according to the Rema (see YD;39), which is not a problem if you are Ashkenazic, but is certainly rendered 'treif' for Sepahrdim, if only stam - not glatt/chalak. Also note, it only applies to beef and NOT chicken. (on the other hand, lamb, veal, etc (i.e.dakot) are considered treif even according to the Rema if not glatt)

6

 Jun 19, 2012 at 09:30 AM Forshayer Says:

What is the upshot here? Are they Kosher or not? Is there such a thing as in between kosher when it comes to meat?

7

 Jun 19, 2012 at 09:34 AM BaruchGershom Says:

The big problem for the plaintiffs will be showing that they suffered some harm -- a Constitutional requirement for standing to sue. The article here says that none of the 11 named plaintiffs keeps kosher. So I can just see their depositions or interrogatory questions focusing on their buying habits and their food consumption out of the home, their religious beliefs, and why they bought Hebrew National in the first place. If they argue that they were harmed because they paid more because it was kosher, defense counsel will quiz them about how much more they would pay for hot dogs that were all-beef and not ground from various organs that would otherwise be sold for dog food. Plaintiffs can't really claim deception, either, because Hebrew National hasn't been recommended for its kashrut since the days it had stores in New York that were open on Saturdays.

9

 Jun 19, 2012 at 10:05 AM Avi Says:

Reply to #3  
ModernLakewoodGuy Says:

What is the biblical halachic source that requires the lungs to be checked in greater detail than how it is currently done with "stam" Kosher?

There isn't one. That's why it's a Chumra.

10

 Jun 19, 2012 at 10:37 AM concerned_Jew Says:

so would hebrew national be acceptable to orthodox jews for consumption and considered 100% kosher?

11

 Jun 19, 2012 at 10:37 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
ModernLakewoodGuy Says:

What is the biblical halachic source that requires the lungs to be checked in greater detail than how it is currently done with "stam" Kosher?

Like many minhagim, this has NO BASIS in tanach but is a self-imposed chumrah that evolved over time. Initially, it may have had some legitimacy in earlier time periods when animal health issues were more difficult to monitor and problems more widespread but today it provide a rationale for some to hold that "Glatt" is a higher level of kashruth and charge a premium price. Every chumrah has its own reward (at least to those who impose it).

12

 Jun 19, 2012 at 10:42 AM mikeb Says:

Reply to #9  
Avi Says:

There isn't one. That's why it's a Chumra.

Not true. It is a point of disagreement between the Shulchon Oruch and the Remo, which has its origins in disagreements on this and similar points going back at least to the Geonic period. The Shulchon Oruch renders what you term "stam" kosher as being 100% treifa. The Remo permits such problems on the lungs of the animal under certain conditions. Because these conditions can vary depending on who checks the shechita, many Ashkenazim adopted the position of the Shulchon Oruch as a chumra over the years. However, it must be stressed that for Sephardim it is 100% treifa, and not a chumra. That is whay such certification of shechita is often termed "Beit Yosef", after Rav Yosef Karo, the author of the Beis Yosef on the Tur, and of course the Shulchon Oruch.

13

 Jun 19, 2012 at 11:00 AM SG11224 Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

What is the difference between stam and glatt kosher? I mean the actual definition and process.

There are certain lesion ( plural ) on the lungs of certain cattle that can be removed with gentle pulling. They in no way indicate a deformity ( which would render the animal trief ) and if it is able to be removed the lung must be inflated and then water is showered from above to see if there is any air loss ( similar to the tire repair shops). Those cattle that are deemed WHOLE are considered Kosher but not Glatt.

14

 Jun 19, 2012 at 11:25 AM OPElly Says:

Reply to #4  
ESmith Says:

Against Triangle K I would say that it is false to think that those who make the allegations against them will have their identities protected. Triangle K's attorneys should be asking for copies of the affidavits, and the identities will surely come out eventually, and subject these people to possible damage claims and perjury charges.

In favor of Triangle K I would say to all those who speak against them, that they are not that bad. While they do hold with certain kulas on grape juice that are not generally held today, they are not out of left field. I had heard years ago that they had certain oil plants down south that did not have a mashgiach t'midi. I don't know if this is true, but for example I don't think I would have a problem with their hashgacha on raisins.

Nobody really frum eats Hebrew National anyway, nor ate it before it was under the triangle K. There are plenty of choices. But for those in the boondocks they may be a life saver. There are still plenty of places where you cannot get anything else, or where you can, but it is from a store open on Shabbos and owned by a Jew.

Why the big fuss?

Meats purchased by the vendor in a sealed package won't be any more treif than corn flakes, whether the store is open on Shabbos or not.

If the meat were prepared on the premises, that'd be a different story.

15

 Jun 19, 2012 at 11:32 AM FredE Says:

Reply to #6  
Forshayer Says:

What is the upshot here? Are they Kosher or not? Is there such a thing as in between kosher when it comes to meat?

Yes there is such a thing as in-between status...

I was once told that the problem with outfits like Hebrew National and Best Kosher is the time allotted for the bedeikah (checking after slaugther). After all, if you have a quota and you only have say, 2 minutes a carcass, you are not going to really find as much as if you had more time

But of course no one will be able to say that what got through was *not* kosher -- hence the ambiguity.

16

 Jun 19, 2012 at 11:37 AM Anonymous Says:

"Stam kosher" for fleish has the same halachaic significance as "cholov stam" (aka poor yidden's cholov yisroel). As Shakespeare once said, "treifus by any other name, is still treifus"....

17

 Jun 19, 2012 at 11:42 AM Truth Says:

Reply to #12  
mikeb Says:

Not true. It is a point of disagreement between the Shulchon Oruch and the Remo, which has its origins in disagreements on this and similar points going back at least to the Geonic period. The Shulchon Oruch renders what you term "stam" kosher as being 100% treifa. The Remo permits such problems on the lungs of the animal under certain conditions. Because these conditions can vary depending on who checks the shechita, many Ashkenazim adopted the position of the Shulchon Oruch as a chumra over the years. However, it must be stressed that for Sephardim it is 100% treifa, and not a chumra. That is whay such certification of shechita is often termed "Beit Yosef", after Rav Yosef Karo, the author of the Beis Yosef on the Tur, and of course the Shulchon Oruch.

I heard 30 years ago there is no such thing as Glatt as 80 -90 % of cows Shechted have Sirchas. They just label it as Glatt. So I feel bad for the Sefardim -they aren't eating Bais Yosef meat. There must be some Heter even acc. to the Mechaber.

18

 Jun 19, 2012 at 11:51 AM sasregener Says:

Rabbi Ralbag Is a Talmid Chacham who get a bad rep. Talk to him for 3 minutes and you will se how ehrlich he is. He has a yeshivisha upbringing but he is his own person. As a frum yeshivisha person myself I have no problem with his hasgachas.

19

 Jun 19, 2012 at 11:32 AM lakewooder Says:

Reply to #3  
ModernLakewoodGuy Says:

What is the biblical halachic source that requires the lungs to be checked in greater detail than how it is currently done with "stam" Kosher?

How do you equate biblical with halachic? Do you not believe in Torah sheba'al peh? The mekor in Tanach for Torah sheba'al peh is actually from shechita (tizbach ve'ochalto ka'asher tzivisicha) and the halocho is decided according to the Torah sheb'al peh.

20

 Jun 19, 2012 at 11:33 AM not_suprised Says:

So seemingly conflicting. I have heard local Vaad Rabonim certifying local butchers, but won't purchase that meat for themselves.
Here, we have kosher for Ashkenazim but trief for Sefardim.
When the laws of kashrus were given to us, did we receive two sets of laws? I have the same problem with kitniyos. I know how/that gezairos become law. But I am a Jew and just want to eat kosher?

21

 Jun 19, 2012 at 12:04 PM Liepa Says:

Reply to #2  
shredready Says:

Triangle-K is responding to the accusation in a better way than SMR did to his accusers

SMR's accuser was the government, nothing to do with hechsher.

22

 Jun 19, 2012 at 12:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
FredE Says:

Yes there is such a thing as in-between status...

I was once told that the problem with outfits like Hebrew National and Best Kosher is the time allotted for the bedeikah (checking after slaugther). After all, if you have a quota and you only have say, 2 minutes a carcass, you are not going to really find as much as if you had more time

But of course no one will be able to say that what got through was *not* kosher -- hence the ambiguity.

I think a lot of those problems were before Rav Ralbag took over HN. Now it is 100% kosher only not glatt. Non-Hasidic Ashkenazic Jews may eat Hebrew National if they do not keep glatt. Today in the US there is more availability of glatt, so most hashgachos have accepted glatt standards to appeal to a wider base (Sefardim and Hasidim). Since then, most Ashkenazic Jews have accepted glatt as a chumra. If an Ashkenazic Jew who has accepted this chumra wishes to change, he must be matir neder. If an ashkenazic Jew did not accept the chumra, there is no problem to eat HN. A sefardic jew or a hasidic jew may not eat HN. It is not traif but for Sefardim and Hasidim it is halachah and not just a chumra

23

 Jun 19, 2012 at 12:32 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #21  
Liepa Says:

SMR's accuser was the government, nothing to do with hechsher.

wrong, read up a little more and the other stuff like animal abuse worker rights and the video from peta

24

 Jun 19, 2012 at 12:34 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #15  
FredE Says:

Yes there is such a thing as in-between status...

I was once told that the problem with outfits like Hebrew National and Best Kosher is the time allotted for the bedeikah (checking after slaugther). After all, if you have a quota and you only have say, 2 minutes a carcass, you are not going to really find as much as if you had more time

But of course no one will be able to say that what got through was *not* kosher -- hence the ambiguity.

if you thing the chassdisha shichta has no quote you are dreaming

25

 Jun 19, 2012 at 12:40 PM FredE Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

I think a lot of those problems were before Rav Ralbag took over HN. Now it is 100% kosher only not glatt. Non-Hasidic Ashkenazic Jews may eat Hebrew National if they do not keep glatt. Today in the US there is more availability of glatt, so most hashgachos have accepted glatt standards to appeal to a wider base (Sefardim and Hasidim). Since then, most Ashkenazic Jews have accepted glatt as a chumra. If an Ashkenazic Jew who has accepted this chumra wishes to change, he must be matir neder. If an ashkenazic Jew did not accept the chumra, there is no problem to eat HN. A sefardic jew or a hasidic jew may not eat HN. It is not traif but for Sefardim and Hasidim it is halachah and not just a chumra

If it is in fact true that the bedeikah time is inadequate, then we are talking more then chumras here, even for Ashkenazim who dont keep glatt. It seems to me the question is... are the bedeikas adequate or not?

26

 Jun 19, 2012 at 12:48 PM Anonymous Says:

I once heard a tape from Rabbi Blumenkrantz zt'l, who said that in the early 1900s, the kosher slaughter of meat was controlled by a mafia-like union, which refused to follow Halachik guidelines. It was basically treif. The only way the frum community was able to replace these Shochtim/Mashgichim and avoid union problems, was by introducing a new product "Glatt Meat". The term Glatt really meant "truly kosher" to distinguish it from the stuff being sold in the "Bosor Bosor" butcher-shops that were owned and operated by Mechalelei Shabbos. It later was redefined to mean "Sircha-free", but now it means Mehudar, as opposed to plain kosher which is more reliant on Kulos, etc. Sircha-free in the cow population is only about a 10% yield.

27

 Jun 19, 2012 at 01:04 PM FredE Says:

Reply to #24  
shredready Says:

if you thing the chassdisha shichta has no quote you are dreaming

Of course. But there are quotas and there are quotas. In the piece above, Rabbi Ralbag spoke of quotas as a mininum time. Very nice.. But what I want to know is ... what is the *average* time being taken for the bedeika, and how does that compare with other outfits?

28

 Jun 19, 2012 at 01:17 PM ChachoMoe Says:

Reply to #26  
Anonymous Says:

I once heard a tape from Rabbi Blumenkrantz zt'l, who said that in the early 1900s, the kosher slaughter of meat was controlled by a mafia-like union, which refused to follow Halachik guidelines. It was basically treif. The only way the frum community was able to replace these Shochtim/Mashgichim and avoid union problems, was by introducing a new product "Glatt Meat". The term Glatt really meant "truly kosher" to distinguish it from the stuff being sold in the "Bosor Bosor" butcher-shops that were owned and operated by Mechalelei Shabbos. It later was redefined to mean "Sircha-free", but now it means Mehudar, as opposed to plain kosher which is more reliant on Kulos, etc. Sircha-free in the cow population is only about a 10% yield.

I think you are a bit confusing the issues, Glatt is an old term, however at the time, the term was applied to all including Chicken, hence it explains how chicken still has that term, even though it makes no sense whatsoever to term glatt on chicken, turkey, etc.

29

 Jun 19, 2012 at 01:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
OPElly Says:

Meats purchased by the vendor in a sealed package won't be any more treif than corn flakes, whether the store is open on Shabbos or not.

If the meat were prepared on the premises, that'd be a different story.

Not quite true. Meat cannot be bought from a mechalel Shabbos, but it can be bought from a goy (or supermarket) when it is in sealed packages.

30

 Jun 19, 2012 at 01:19 PM Anonymous Says:

It all comes down to whether there are enough Chassideshe mashgichim to go around for the mass market needs of frum yidden who demand the highest level of hashgacha. Sadly, there are not. While there are some other Litvish and Sephardeshe hashgachos that might be adequate, Hebrew National is not able to affiliate with those organizations. Rav Ralbag is an ehrliche yid from a highly respected yeshivish background and provides a valued service to a company that serves the mass market need for yidden who want a "kosher product" but whose hashkafah doesn't require the gold standard of a Chassideshe hashgacha which has been proven over time to be beyond challenge.

31

 Jun 19, 2012 at 01:21 PM Anonymous Says:

I stopped recognizing the Triangle K as an acceptable hechsher for myself many years ago when I saw that hechsher label on bread that was milchig. The bread was not baked to appear different (which is the only heter to bake milchig bread). My judgment was that if basic Shulchan Aruch was being violated for this, why should I consider the standards on anything else to be consistent with halacha? This was quite some years ago, and things may have changed. But much of my life, the impression I had was that the symbol was not associated for me with kashrus.

32

 Jun 19, 2012 at 01:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #26  
Anonymous Says:

I once heard a tape from Rabbi Blumenkrantz zt'l, who said that in the early 1900s, the kosher slaughter of meat was controlled by a mafia-like union, which refused to follow Halachik guidelines. It was basically treif. The only way the frum community was able to replace these Shochtim/Mashgichim and avoid union problems, was by introducing a new product "Glatt Meat". The term Glatt really meant "truly kosher" to distinguish it from the stuff being sold in the "Bosor Bosor" butcher-shops that were owned and operated by Mechalelei Shabbos. It later was redefined to mean "Sircha-free", but now it means Mehudar, as opposed to plain kosher which is more reliant on Kulos, etc. Sircha-free in the cow population is only about a 10% yield.

My father was involved in kicking the mafia out of the kosher meat business, and it didn't happen quite that way. There was someone named George Lederman who was friendly with Rav Shraga Feivel, who arranged to kick them out by getting the entire student body of Torah Vodaath outside the building where the mafia had their offices, arranging a meeting with the people from the mafia in charge of the kosher meat business, and telling them that evey minute another two students were going to come up, and while they could kill everyone, the police had been called to show up in two hours, and how are they going to get rid of the bodies that fast. At that point the mafia decided they would keep the treif meat business, but there wasn't enough money in the kosher meat business at that time to make it worth even thinking about.

34

 Jun 19, 2012 at 02:08 PM HaNavon Says:

Heeb Nash is kosher, end of sentence. The truth is that it's only called 'non glatt' because of some theoretical heterim that Rav Ralbag allows, but are almost never implemented, due to the high volume of shchitah, and the fact that Hebrew National is owned by a non kosher parent company that uses the carcasses of anything with a sheilah in a different, treife facility, with no financial loss.
The heterim that are theoretically used are for 'koleif', which is a type of scab on the lung, but the Aruch HaShulchan AND R Moshe Feinshtein were matir, but was once the subject of a machloikes achronim.

You must also remember that 'glatt kosher' isn't the true glatt anyway! The OU allows sirchos that would be assur for a sephardi to eat because it isn't chalak Beis Yoseif.

35

 Jun 19, 2012 at 02:33 PM PMOinFL Says:

Reply to #15  
FredE Says:

Yes there is such a thing as in-between status...

I was once told that the problem with outfits like Hebrew National and Best Kosher is the time allotted for the bedeikah (checking after slaugther). After all, if you have a quota and you only have say, 2 minutes a carcass, you are not going to really find as much as if you had more time

But of course no one will be able to say that what got through was *not* kosher -- hence the ambiguity.

You were "once told" something that was not true and unfortunate.

Best's (which no longer exists) has changed hands many times over the years. They were owned by Sara Lee for the last years of their existence. They never had trustworthy supervision. I'm not even sure any bedeikah (or even scheichta) was done by them as the supervision was "internal".

Hebrew National, on the other hand, has had the TK since 2004. Prior to that they did like Best's. However, it was clear that nobody in the kosher world would accept a company doing it's own supervision anymore.

Of course these people are required to meet quotas. It is a business. In order to pay 20 salaries, they need to average X bovines per hour. That's business. However, this is why the WHO is important. Does he (or his delegates) have the ability to stop the line, without question and regardless of cost, to address issues properly. If he doesn't, we should not trust him. However, nobody makes that accusation here.

36

 Jun 19, 2012 at 03:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #30  
Anonymous Says:

It all comes down to whether there are enough Chassideshe mashgichim to go around for the mass market needs of frum yidden who demand the highest level of hashgacha. Sadly, there are not. While there are some other Litvish and Sephardeshe hashgachos that might be adequate, Hebrew National is not able to affiliate with those organizations. Rav Ralbag is an ehrliche yid from a highly respected yeshivish background and provides a valued service to a company that serves the mass market need for yidden who want a "kosher product" but whose hashkafah doesn't require the gold standard of a Chassideshe hashgacha which has been proven over time to be beyond challenge.

gold standard of a Chassideshe hashgacha which has been proven over time to be beyond challenge.”

The Yidden in Monsey also thought that, until they found out they were eating TREIF prepared by an Erlicha Yid. They are still spitting!

37

 Jun 19, 2012 at 03:26 PM FredE Says:

Reply to #35  
PMOinFL Says:

You were "once told" something that was not true and unfortunate.

Best's (which no longer exists) has changed hands many times over the years. They were owned by Sara Lee for the last years of their existence. They never had trustworthy supervision. I'm not even sure any bedeikah (or even scheichta) was done by them as the supervision was "internal".

Hebrew National, on the other hand, has had the TK since 2004. Prior to that they did like Best's. However, it was clear that nobody in the kosher world would accept a company doing it's own supervision anymore.

Of course these people are required to meet quotas. It is a business. In order to pay 20 salaries, they need to average X bovines per hour. That's business. However, this is why the WHO is important. Does he (or his delegates) have the ability to stop the line, without question and regardless of cost, to address issues properly. If he doesn't, we should not trust him. However, nobody makes that accusation here.

Uhm, what exactly was not true?

Best Kosher was under the supervision of the Rabbi Issac HaLevi Small, and then his son Michal., both of whom are now in the Olam HaEmet. Both of these gentlemen were hot shots in the Chicago community, (The older Rabbi Small was the brother in law of R Moshe Feinstein) and neither would eat the meat they gave hashgacah on.

I didnt mean quotas were bad. Just that the bedeikah time allotted has to be reasonable. If its too short, then you wont find anything to stop the line about.
I have no idea what reasonable vs unreasonable time is, but I can see how
that issue could create some ambiguity in the hasgacah.

38

 Jun 19, 2012 at 03:46 PM kehati Says:

When I was growing up in the 50's, we were taught that only about 10% of beheimos that were schected could qualify as "glatt". Is this still true? Or have the numbers been reversed - 90% are "glatt" ? If not , where does all the meat sold as "glatt" come from? Are millions of beheimos schechted each year?

39

 Jun 19, 2012 at 04:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #31  
Anonymous Says:

I stopped recognizing the Triangle K as an acceptable hechsher for myself many years ago when I saw that hechsher label on bread that was milchig. The bread was not baked to appear different (which is the only heter to bake milchig bread). My judgment was that if basic Shulchan Aruch was being violated for this, why should I consider the standards on anything else to be consistent with halacha? This was quite some years ago, and things may have changed. But much of my life, the impression I had was that the symbol was not associated for me with kashrus.

did you ever call up the rav and ask him about you complaint. i personally did a couple of years ago and learned a great lesson from that incident, call and ask. He answered me very simply, the amount of dairy is always less then 1.6 percent of the total formula meaning on all wonderr breads so its always less then shishim and is therefore batul. i asked may one be mevatel lechatchila he answered reb akiva eiger says clearly lehalach in his hagahos on shulchan aruch that a goy can be mevatel lechaticila, and being that this composition is their formula the goy is the one being mevatel it for himself. so halachically its not dairy bread that fallls into the geziro of milchik bread. however he told me that they still write "d' on it even though its not milchiks as a chumra. and besides he added that according to many poskim a "d' on the packaging itself is a clear marking as on bread itself where the gezeira doesnt apply. in addition he mentioned another point something about the shach that its 'whey" and not milk that they add.
i told him many ppl dont know this basis and just think he gives on michike bread. he told me his purpose is a service to provide kosher not have a pr battle

40

 Jun 19, 2012 at 04:34 PM Anonymous Says:

let's get one thing straightt......... The 'glatt' that you are eating today is NOT glatt. The rabbonim have lowered their standard's so much in order to fill the demand that EVEN BAIS YOSEF IS NOT PASSABLE FOR REAL GLATT. If you don't believe this, then call up the various rabbonim and ask them their shitas.

41

 Jun 19, 2012 at 04:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

gold standard of a Chassideshe hashgacha which has been proven over time to be beyond challenge.”

The Yidden in Monsey also thought that, until they found out they were eating TREIF prepared by an Erlicha Yid. They are still spitting!

If you are referring to the Monsey Kosher Chicken fiasco several years ago, that involved an crooked butcher working with a Skver dayan and not a reputable Chassideshe hashgacha.

42

 Jun 19, 2012 at 04:40 PM shvitzer11559 Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

did you ever call up the rav and ask him about you complaint. i personally did a couple of years ago and learned a great lesson from that incident, call and ask. He answered me very simply, the amount of dairy is always less then 1.6 percent of the total formula meaning on all wonderr breads so its always less then shishim and is therefore batul. i asked may one be mevatel lechatchila he answered reb akiva eiger says clearly lehalach in his hagahos on shulchan aruch that a goy can be mevatel lechaticila, and being that this composition is their formula the goy is the one being mevatel it for himself. so halachically its not dairy bread that fallls into the geziro of milchik bread. however he told me that they still write "d' on it even though its not milchiks as a chumra. and besides he added that according to many poskim a "d' on the packaging itself is a clear marking as on bread itself where the gezeira doesnt apply. in addition he mentioned another point something about the shach that its 'whey" and not milk that they add.
i told him many ppl dont know this basis and just think he gives on michike bread. he told me his purpose is a service to provide kosher not have a pr battle

He had the same answer for Mott's fruit juice with white grape juice in it , had an answer for his 50k heter mea rabbonim and then loosing the names of the 100 rabbonim, he screwed up a womans life for 50k. he has answers for every screwball psak he gives. Lets say his answer to you is correct. Did Ralbag ever consider the inyan of Maras Eiyin? re: giving a hashgacha on bread with a D (Dairy Mark) even if it is 100% within halacha how would one know that his bread is Batul (if it actualy is). What percentage of Jewish consumers call the Rav Hamachsher like you did. His answer that "his purpose is a service to provide kosher not have a pr battle" is Maras Eiyin a PR battle??? whats next putting a triange K on select menue items at Mcdonald's

43

 Jun 19, 2012 at 04:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
shredready Says:

if you thing the chassdisha shichta has no quote you are dreaming

You have made three comments on this thread; so far and each is stupider than the next which is a continuing trend from your earlier comments.

Which is quite amazing, since most of us thought that there was a limit to your stupidity. Apparently the limit is one that normal thinking people cannot fathom.

44

 Jun 19, 2012 at 05:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

did you ever call up the rav and ask him about you complaint. i personally did a couple of years ago and learned a great lesson from that incident, call and ask. He answered me very simply, the amount of dairy is always less then 1.6 percent of the total formula meaning on all wonderr breads so its always less then shishim and is therefore batul. i asked may one be mevatel lechatchila he answered reb akiva eiger says clearly lehalach in his hagahos on shulchan aruch that a goy can be mevatel lechaticila, and being that this composition is their formula the goy is the one being mevatel it for himself. so halachically its not dairy bread that fallls into the geziro of milchik bread. however he told me that they still write "d' on it even though its not milchiks as a chumra. and besides he added that according to many poskim a "d' on the packaging itself is a clear marking as on bread itself where the gezeira doesnt apply. in addition he mentioned another point something about the shach that its 'whey" and not milk that they add.
i told him many ppl dont know this basis and just think he gives on michike bread. he told me his purpose is a service to provide kosher not have a pr battle

I was going to end my comment #39 with the words "Humor me." Well, you succeeded. I am glad you took the burden of calling. It was not relevant to me for the bread, because it was pas akum, which I do not eat anyway. However, some of the answers you shared here are quite amusing. The shishim stuff is certainly a game, with goyim doing this but with a hechsher. About poskim who hold that the "D" on the label is a clear marking on the bread, exempting fromthe gezeirah - please provide some references. Whoever I mentioned that to found it ridiculous. Next, where there's a will, there's a whey. Whey is milk. When making cheese, the milk separates, and whey is a bi-product. Nothing in it but milk. It is not less milchig than milk poured from a carton or taken straight from a cow, though it does behave differently in certain recipes

Bottom line, if there is a tzad heter here, I still want to hear it. Let's save the jokes for an article that is dedicated to humor.

45

 Jun 19, 2012 at 07:24 PM shredready Says:

Reply to #43  
Anonymous Says:

You have made three comments on this thread; so far and each is stupider than the next which is a continuing trend from your earlier comments.

Which is quite amazing, since most of us thought that there was a limit to your stupidity. Apparently the limit is one that normal thinking people cannot fathom.

you are dreaming if you thing they do not have a quote it is a business

how stupid can you be.

Just because what i say many times does not meet you believe system does not make it stupid.

whether SMR was guilty or not I did not say however. HN is playing the PR game much better than SMR

46

 Jun 19, 2012 at 07:28 PM ChachoMoe Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

did you ever call up the rav and ask him about you complaint. i personally did a couple of years ago and learned a great lesson from that incident, call and ask. He answered me very simply, the amount of dairy is always less then 1.6 percent of the total formula meaning on all wonderr breads so its always less then shishim and is therefore batul. i asked may one be mevatel lechatchila he answered reb akiva eiger says clearly lehalach in his hagahos on shulchan aruch that a goy can be mevatel lechaticila, and being that this composition is their formula the goy is the one being mevatel it for himself. so halachically its not dairy bread that fallls into the geziro of milchik bread. however he told me that they still write "d' on it even though its not milchiks as a chumra. and besides he added that according to many poskim a "d' on the packaging itself is a clear marking as on bread itself where the gezeira doesnt apply. in addition he mentioned another point something about the shach that its 'whey" and not milk that they add.
i told him many ppl dont know this basis and just think he gives on michike bread. he told me his purpose is a service to provide kosher not have a pr battle

Thanks for sharing;however isn't the milk in this case a 'Nosen Ta'am'? as they are intentionaly adding the milk for that very reason, thus, the volume of shishim not relevent.

47

 Jun 19, 2012 at 07:34 PM SF2K1 Says:

Reply to #44  
Anonymous Says:

I was going to end my comment #39 with the words "Humor me." Well, you succeeded. I am glad you took the burden of calling. It was not relevant to me for the bread, because it was pas akum, which I do not eat anyway. However, some of the answers you shared here are quite amusing. The shishim stuff is certainly a game, with goyim doing this but with a hechsher. About poskim who hold that the "D" on the label is a clear marking on the bread, exempting fromthe gezeirah - please provide some references. Whoever I mentioned that to found it ridiculous. Next, where there's a will, there's a whey. Whey is milk. When making cheese, the milk separates, and whey is a bi-product. Nothing in it but milk. It is not less milchig than milk poured from a carton or taken straight from a cow, though it does behave differently in certain recipes

Bottom line, if there is a tzad heter here, I still want to hear it. Let's save the jokes for an article that is dedicated to humor.

It actually would not be pas akum, it's pas palter, they are two different things and pas palter was permitted by chazal up through shulchan aruch as kosher k'halacha.

48

 Jun 19, 2012 at 08:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #42  
shvitzer11559 Says:

He had the same answer for Mott's fruit juice with white grape juice in it , had an answer for his 50k heter mea rabbonim and then loosing the names of the 100 rabbonim, he screwed up a womans life for 50k. he has answers for every screwball psak he gives. Lets say his answer to you is correct. Did Ralbag ever consider the inyan of Maras Eiyin? re: giving a hashgacha on bread with a D (Dairy Mark) even if it is 100% within halacha how would one know that his bread is Batul (if it actualy is). What percentage of Jewish consumers call the Rav Hamachsher like you did. His answer that "his purpose is a service to provide kosher not have a pr battle" is Maras Eiyin a PR battle??? whats next putting a triange K on select menue items at Mcdonald's

I suspect you will be begging for mechila from Rav Ralbag, shlita, in the near term since your loshon harah and character assasination of this chashuve rav is likely to have consequences in your personal life.

49

 Jun 19, 2012 at 08:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #48  
Anonymous Says:

I suspect you will be begging for mechila from Rav Ralbag, shlita, in the near term since your loshon harah and character assasination of this chashuve rav is likely to have consequences in your personal life.

I suspect you are Ralbag or one of his imediate family members.....mechila? oh boy does Ralbag need some mechila begging all over the world

50

 Jun 19, 2012 at 09:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #45  
shredready Says:

you are dreaming if you thing they do not have a quote it is a business

how stupid can you be.

Just because what i say many times does not meet you believe system does not make it stupid.

whether SMR was guilty or not I did not say however. HN is playing the PR game much better than SMR

And there you go again. Proving that the limit has still not been met.

Perhaps I should quote you to prove how stupid you are.

I would say "a word to the wise", but that clearly does not apply to you, but do not comment when it is clear you have no idea what you are talking about.

And that is but one reason that your comments are stupid. The other reason is because of the source of the comments.

51

 Jun 19, 2012 at 11:09 PM sighber Says:

How can the people suing be kept anonymous from the group that they are suing? How are they alleging that the product is inferior because it is supervised by the triangle-k? If the people who are not suing do not keep kosher, what are they trying to accomplish with this lawsuit? Are they perhaps working for another organization that wants to get the supervision? Are they former workers who were fired because they did not want to adhere to the triangle-k's standards?

52

 Jun 20, 2012 at 01:48 AM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #24  
shredready Says:

if you thing the chassdisha shichta has no quote you are dreaming

Here again, you show your poor grasp of English. (Not to speak of the finer points of Yiddishkeit, of which you have no concept whatsoever.) There is a world of difference between "Quota" and "Quote", as you have written. The latter doesn't make sense at all in the context of your reply to the previous poster. The only thing I can say in your defense is, that you were inculcated (Or, indoctrinated) with disdain for anything that is remotely connected to religion, in your native, former Soviet-bloc country under a now defunct, communist regime.

53

 Jun 20, 2012 at 10:55 AM FredE Says:

Reply to #52  
bigwheeel Says:

Here again, you show your poor grasp of English. (Not to speak of the finer points of Yiddishkeit, of which you have no concept whatsoever.) There is a world of difference between "Quota" and "Quote", as you have written. The latter doesn't make sense at all in the context of your reply to the previous poster. The only thing I can say in your defense is, that you were inculcated (Or, indoctrinated) with disdain for anything that is remotely connected to religion, in your native, former Soviet-bloc country under a now defunct, communist regime.

Oh stop it. The man made a typo. Grow up.

54

 Jun 20, 2012 at 12:21 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #13  
SG11224 Says:

There are certain lesion ( plural ) on the lungs of certain cattle that can be removed with gentle pulling. They in no way indicate a deformity ( which would render the animal trief ) and if it is able to be removed the lung must be inflated and then water is showered from above to see if there is any air loss ( similar to the tire repair shops). Those cattle that are deemed WHOLE are considered Kosher but not Glatt.

What you are saying is correct. However, your parenthetic elaboration (Plural) is incorrectly spelled, and denotes something entirely different than the subject being discussed in this thread. The correct spelling should be "Pleural" (Relating to the Pleura.) What you wrote defines any number that is more than one.

55

 Jun 20, 2012 at 12:32 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #53  
FredE Says:

Oh stop it. The man made a typo. Grow up.

No. "The Man" wrote more than once "Quote", which destroyed the entire context of the message he intended to convey. Furthermore. "The Man" consistently presents such arguments that demonstrate his complete lack of being steeped in the traditions of Judaism, and thus appear to be vicious or childish.

56

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