New York – Rabbis Say They’ll Defy Law On Metzitzah B’peh

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    New York – In advance of the Department of Health’s vote next week to require City parents to sign an informed consent form prior to the performance of “metzitzah b’peh,” 200 rabbis have signed onto a proclamation alleging the Health Department “printed and spread lies. . . in order to justify their evil decree. It is clear to us, that there is not even an iota of blame or danger in this ancient and holy custom,” the declaration stated.

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    Despite the fact that 11 babies contracted the herpes simplex virus since 2000, killing two infants and causing brain damage to another two babies, Rabbi David Neiderman, executive director of the United Jewish Organization of Williamsburg, said religious Jews will defy the measure, even it becomes law, according to the New York Post (http://bit.ly/QSbUZZ).

    “For the government to force a rabbi who’s practicing a religious act to tell his congregants it’s dangerous is totally unacceptable,” he said. “You’re forcing the mohel and the parent to sign a piece of paper that contradicts their religious convictions.”

    The Department of Health did not respond to the rabbinical proclamation except to say, “It is important that parents know the risks associated with the practice.”


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    112 Comments
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    PashutehYid
    PashutehYid
    11 years ago

    Since when does signing a paper contradict one’s religious beliefs? In order not to interfere in the Bris ceremony, which the authorities could well have done, they were kind enough to merely require informed consent about a risky procedure. A procedure which is highly questionable whether it has any relationship to the Bris at all, or was just an ancient way of stopping bleeding or cleansing the wound, based on the medical knowledge of those times. Those who believe we should practice medicine based on the gemara, do you still attach a blood sucking leach to your arms to do bloodletting? Why is this different?

    In addition it is the height of chutzpah to accuse the benevolent Health Department of trying to institute an evil decree, when they have only the child’s best interests in mind. Whether you agree or not with the accuracy of their statistics, at least argue intelligently about the claims. Is this Purim that we go around calling it an evil decree? I am embarrassed that Rabbis would engage in name-calling and appealling to nonexistent charges in an enlightened and kind country in which we are fortunate to live.

    11 years ago

    The Department of Health did not respond to the rabbinical proclamation except to say, “It is important that parents know the risks associated with the practice.”
    Do they also warn The “Alternitive lifestyle people” that their lifestyle is a prime cause of AIDS.

    11 years ago

    The reasonable and rational response would be to hire an unbiased expert to review the data and determine if their is a danger. There was a time in our history when our religous leaders appreciated the need to study math and science. It’s a shame that we are now raising a generation of ignorant people.

    BaruchHashem
    BaruchHashem
    11 years ago

    “Despite the fact that 11 babies contracted the herpes simplex virus since 2000….” seems to imply that the Rabbis are ignoring that fact and insisting on their way… and that is not the case. That statement has already been disputed, there is so much missing from this article. I hope Hashem will be on our side and this gezeirah will not come to fruition.

    Aron1
    Active Member
    Aron1
    11 years ago

    Will the proposed DOH form explicitly say that Metzitzah B’peh is dangerous, or will it just require that the participants acknowledge that they are aware of the risks (whatever they may be)?

    11 years ago

    Let every mohel be on notice: If metzizah b’peh results in a dead baby, they may very well be prosecuted for murder. Is this really worth it?

    ChareidiMan
    ChareidiMan
    11 years ago

    I think the rabbis are making a huge mistake by doing this. The Government is not saying you cannot do it, rather they are making you aware of the potential effects.

    The government is required to make you aware of it just like they are required to print the ingredients on food, so you know how many calories there is in it.

    What is so wrong with that? Why fight them on this? Why not just take it as a service, before the government realizes that ultra orthodox a re a group that you cannot deal with and take stronger measurements against them.

    You are making a big mistake that might have huge consequences down the road

    11 years ago

    “It is clear to us, that there is not even an iota of blame or danger in this ancient and holy custom”

    2 problems with this:
    1. Not even an iota of danger. The fact that there might be danger in MBP means that there is more than an iota.

    2. ancient and holy custom. It’s a custom. I know that chassidim regard customs as more important than law, but custom is just not the same as law. sorry.

    AuthenticSatmar
    AuthenticSatmar
    11 years ago

    Arguing intelligently about the claims doesn’t mean that I agree with you.
    Many Dr’s and Scientists have already spoken clearly about how statistically there is no risk to a child, even if all 11 contracted it via metziza, which has not been proven, and most evidence proves otherwise.
    The health dep’t is making believe that this is about a childs interest. There are far greater risk to children that NYC is not addressing. Their internal memos make it clear that this is about getting rid of ancient practices than the child’s safety. This is a veiled attack on religion. If we compromise on this we can expect further attacks on our practices.

    Crazykanoiy
    Crazykanoiy
    11 years ago

    It would be most beneficial for those writing “kol korehs” to use modern day terminology, and words that are easly transalted into English.

    Writing about “Evil Decrees” makes us sound primitive. If the same points would be made in an intelligent fashion the “Kol Koreh” would have a better chance of being effective.

    (Case in point the Anti – Internet Organization, Vaad L’tharos Hamachne translates as the Organization for the Purity of the Camp which sounds rediculous and backwards in English.)

    PaulinSaudi
    PaulinSaudi
    11 years ago

    I am certainly no expert, but it seems like a reasonable regulation and trifling burden.

    Longwave
    Longwave
    11 years ago

    I remember when the Chevra kadishas of New York were given a lecture on disease transmission. We were required to get Hepatitus B shots and started wearing gloves to protect ourselves. A question was asked – what about a Gadol Hador like Reb Moshe (Feinstein to the Chassidics who never heard of Litvishe G’dolim). The answer was that we still had to wear gloves – not because of the lack of Kavod Hamais, but because we will do it for all.

    Now we have a case where Chassidic ‘gedolim’ are worrying about their ‘kavod’ and ‘mesorah’ more than they are worrying about the babys life. What if it were YOUR baby that died?

    I recall when air conditioning was not allowed on Shabbat, because the Rabbonim did not understand the concept behind it and found it easier to ban it than to ask how it worked. Maybe these Rabbonim need a course in micro-biology. They were able to find the bugs in the strawberries. Now they should find the diseases in bodily fluids

    11 years ago

    Again, the DOH is not banning MB”P. All they are saying is that the parents should sign a form of consent that they are aware of the risks of MB”P. That’s all and nothing more.

    Aryeh
    Aryeh
    11 years ago

    M”BP is completely safe if performed under sterile conditions, the evidence to the contrary is circumstantial and very suspect. This declaration ironically serves to shield mohelim from liability by requiring a letter of informed consent. This ruling is unconstitutional and will be struck down on these grounds.

    qazxc
    qazxc
    11 years ago

    What’s wrong with using a tube?

    11 years ago

    Its amazing how people because of respect for gedolim think thgat because someone is a Rav and knows some basic math and science and helped a few kids with their studies, that he is somehow an “expert” in these areas. How ignorant and foolish we have become. You also seem to ignore that this articles it quoting Satmar and not Rabbi Belsky. Satmar chasidim are denied even the most basic secular education and are completely out of touch with how a normal society functions. My rebi from yeshiva was very good at math and science. Neither he or Rav Belsky would or could claim to be an “expert” in disease transmission or any kind of truly advanced applications and theories etc, any more than a scietnist who is learned in Torah could claim to be an expert in that. But, somehow if someone is Rosh Yeshiva, we make him out to be a tremendous genious in all things. Yet, the same person could’t even pass a class at MIT with their current knowledge. Not to say they arn’t smart enough, but, their knowledge is so limited to basics and you are a fool to think otherwise.

    TheRealJoe123
    TheRealJoe123
    11 years ago

    Anyone who knows how Government works, especially a GOV run by King Bloomy, would realize that regulating is the 1st step towards banning plain and simple. So we must fight it now and not be all wishy washy.

    commonsense18
    commonsense18
    11 years ago

    I cannot understand – why the suction has to be with direct mouth to wound contact- if the suction is needed – why can’t a sterile pipet be used- suction applied – no worry of germs-everybody should be happy.
    reading some of these comments – if these people are in need of surgery – they shouldn’t call a doctor -they should call a “godol batorah”and have him perform it

    basmelech
    basmelech
    11 years ago

    As far as I know the babies did not contract the virus from the mohel but, from a mother or a sibling. I want to know statistics from the general population,of baby boys as well as baby girls, who get the herpes virus. That would be more a more correct way to determine how herpes is contracted and it would rule out MBP as the culprit. The dept. of Health is on a witch hunt against mohelim and it is biased and antisemitic.

    ExpatriateOwl
    ExpatriateOwl
    11 years ago

    Interesting not only for the names of the signers, but also for whose names are not there.

    For example, Rabbi Perlow, the Novominsker Rebbe. Is it because the people who put together the Proclamation didn’t approach him? Is it because he disagrees with it? Or is it because he, as the top banana at the Agudath Israel of America, might not wish to be known by the politicians his Agudaniks lobby as a scoffer of the laws??

    Just wondering.

    joseph
    joseph
    11 years ago

    Even though the risks of death or serious injury when doing a Bris Milah may be ONE IN A MILLION… it is known there is a very remote risk when doing a Bris.

    Therefore we should stop doing any more Bris Milah’s.

    So regulate Bris Milah too. No Bris can be performed unless government regulations of Brish Milah, namely to sign a consent form of the risks inherent to a Bris, if first signed.

    Why stop at MBP? Bris itself should be government regulated.

    It’s only the first step. Once the NYC DOH establishes they can regulate MBP, the next step will be for them to ban it altogether.

    We cannot allow them a beachhead in establishing that the State can regulate a Church (religious) practice. It is against the Constitution.

    Monseyite
    Monseyite
    11 years ago

    “Despite the fact that 11 babies contracted the herpes simplex virus since 2000, killing two infants and causing brain damage to another two babies”
    So what they are saying is that in 12-13 years there were only 11 cases! Out of probably 20k babies!?!?!? There is a bigger chance of dying from all vaccinations we give babies these days!!!! so now the city health dept will start to regulate vaccinations??? I don’t think so! So obviously this is a witch hunt by bloomys soda drinking ban administration

    joseph
    joseph
    11 years ago

    The DOH regulation on MBP (and it isn’t even a law) is completely and entirely unenforceable:

    1. It isn’t even a law. It is just a regulation passed by the local directors of the city health board. Even if it is violated, it is not breaking the law. It will result in getting a “ticket” with a monetary fine. (Like a parking ticket.)

    2. It is illegal as it is unconstitutional. The government is constitutionally prohibited from regulating a religious practice.

    3. It is unenforceable. The government cannot place department of health inspectors in synagogues to observe if the mohel performs MBP or not. At most, they need to ask the parents or mohel. And they probably won’t even know who the mohel was. And even if they ask, neither the parent nor the mohel have to answer or even talk to the DOH or any government officials. It is called the Fifth Amendment.

    wsbrgh
    wsbrgh
    11 years ago

    Again- “b’peh” is not mentioned ONCE anywhere in shas, Yoreh Daye, Kol Bo, Rambam, Maharsha, &c &c.

    cocoaman
    cocoaman
    11 years ago

    why don’t they have parents sign consent forms before their children receives shots?!?! there are more illnesses and deaths affected by shots than by mitzpe.just saying…

    Facts1
    Facts1
    11 years ago

    We the people are well aware of the innocent intentions of the lovely govt agencies that are regulating for the interest of “safety”. Just sign that paper and everything will be fine. Just admit that we are in charge, trust me!

    These are the same agencies that now harass every eatery in the name of “health”.

    The same agencies that hand out lofty tickets (oh it just started out with an awareness sticker, $15 fee, $65, and now a full fledged ticket quota) in the name of “safety”.

    The same agencies that now will be controlling how much soda you can buy in the name of “safety”.

    The same agancies that have killed the MTA will unrelenting “fast-track” construction in the name of “jobs”.

    The same agnecies that have raised the price of an MTA fare 6 times over the last 10 yrs, raising it over 120%.

    The same agencies that keep on raising that “tolls” for bridges built over 60 yrs ago, these tolls were meant to pay for the construction and maintainence of thaose individual bridge, now a source of income for the “agencies”.

    Agencies how we love you, we trust you, you are the way around the constitution. No lawsuits, no elections, nothing can undo you!

    honestmodox
    honestmodox
    11 years ago

    The City of New York should be applauded for doing what the “Rabbonim” refuse to do- make it known that a Mohel putting his mouth to an open wound is dangerous. I’d have preferred if NYC took the route of some Gedolim from the 19th and 20th century and banned it all together. This is a start…

    bewhiskered
    bewhiskered
    11 years ago

    “For the government to force a rabbi who’s practicing a religious act to tell his congregants it’s dangerous is totally unacceptable. You’re forcing the mohel and the parent to sign a piece of paper that contradicts their religious convictions.”

    But, the entire process of ברית מילה can be dangerous, based on the words of חז”ל themselves. In שלחן ערוך יורה דעה סימן רס”ג , the מחבר writes:

    אשה שמלה בנה ראשון ומת מחמת מילה שהכשילה כחו ומלה גם השני ומת מחמת מילה הרי הוחזקה שבניה מתים מחמת מילה

    How does anyone contradict their religious convictions by signing an informed consent form, testifying that they are aware of the risks involved in מציצה בפה? Aren’t Rabbi Neiderman and the United Jewish Organization of Williamsburg over dramatizing this entire affair, by lamely attempting to disguise a health issue into some supreme act of מסירת נפש against an evil government that seeks to be רודף Jews living in New York?

    חכמים הזהרו בדבריכם

    honestmodox
    honestmodox
    11 years ago

    The City of New York should be applauded for doing what the “Rabbonim” refuse to do- make it known that a Mohel putting his mouth to an open wound is dangerous. I’d have preferred if NYC took the route of some Gedolim from the 19th and 20th century and banned it all together. This is a start…

    RobertS
    RobertS
    11 years ago

    Dina d’malchuta Dina. Why object to the form, if it does not preclude ritual? Do these rabbis object to marriage licenses, too?

    oiber-chacham
    oiber-chacham
    11 years ago

    The ultimate analogy to metzitza is the following. Take a gun that has a 1 million bullet capacity. Place one bullet in one of the chambers leaving the rest empty. Take that gun, point it at the head of your 8 day old infant and pull the trigger,
    Is there a sane person in the world that would do that? I think the answer is obvious: A resounding no! You would have to be criminaly insane to do such a thing even though the odds of killing the baby are statistically insignificant. Why would anyone do such a foolish thing? There is a loaded gun and a chance that the bullet will end your baby’s life.
    the halacha teaches us that ‘safek pekuach nefesh” trumps all the prohibitions in the torah,a perfect example ” there is a city of one million non-jews and only one jew living there,and you see on shabbos that a wall fell on someone and you have no idea who it is,the halacha tell us that even though the odds of that person being jewish is one million to one,we must be mechalel shabbos and try to save him,and on top of that we all agree that metzitza done with an instrument is halachikly valid,and doing by mouth is only a minhag because we want to do it the way our forefathers used to do it,

    Open-Your-Eyes
    Open-Your-Eyes
    11 years ago

    This is not the 1st time that so-called intellectuals try to refrain yidden from millah. Who remembers the educated Yevonim and their followers, the Misyavnim? Familliar?

    This is a history repeat. Jews bravely defied them then, and we will continue in that path. Hashem is with us!

    KenZein
    KenZein
    11 years ago

    Unbelievable how there are so many people here who are such experts, and are so sure that MBP is so safe. Like ‘Facts1’, and others. So enlighten us; what do you know about bacteria? Staph Aureus, Strep Pyogenes, Clostridiae, etc. Please, tell us some facts. have you ever seen one of the above organisms under a microscope? Or maybe you believe they don’t really exist.

    Tell me, when your kid scrapes his knee bloody, do you put a Band-aid over it? Some bacitracin perhaps? Why? Chances are he’ll be fine. And next time you go to the dentist, tell him forget the gloves- you don’ think anything will happen. And if you have to have any kind of surgical procedure done, just tell the surgeon to skip the mask. You don’t care about his bacteria laden droplets breathed into your surgical field.

    You’d want the mohel to wear gloves, but then he can go and squeeze his bacteria loaded mouth abainst the wound? Where’s the seichel?

    Since when did MBP become yehareg v’al ya’avor? It’s a minhag. A bris done without MBP is just as kosher as one done without.

    I think I’ve lost what little respect I’ve had left for Rabbis like Reuven Feinstein and Salomon. Belsky I lost respect for long ago.

    11 years ago

    Perhaps the DOH should close all hospitals, health centers, etc. because people are getting staph infections (some fatal) there. The reason government is getting involved in this issue is because there are people pushing this agenda. If all the gay bars were forced to close their doors to prevent the spread of AIDS, there would be a huge outcry about “civil liberties” and rights.

    basmelech
    basmelech
    11 years ago

    I am more willing to take the risk and have a traditional bris with MBP on my baby, than I am willing to risk giving him vaccinations that contain toxins like mercury etc.

    Adam_Neira
    Adam_Neira
    11 years ago

    I repeat…

    Metzitzah b’peh should be banned. End of story. Circumcision is not under attack. The practise of metzitzah b’peh is. People who claim that banning MBP would be the thin edge of the wedge to outlaw circumcision are being disingenuous. Brit milah is a set in stone mitzvah whilst MBP is a later adopted custom. (A bit like the fact that the Tanach is the primary book whilst the Talmud is a derivative.)

    This is a simple halakhic issue to solve. The sucking ritual as part of the bris is not mentioned in the Pentateuch and even if it is a custom that has been passed down from mohels through the centuries does not make it right in this day and age. We don’t push goats off cliffs anymore to absolve our sins etc. etc. Sometimes it amazes me that in 2012/5772 the thinking of various “sages” and “scholars” is so medievil.

    Again…People should also not confuse the MBP practise which is a custom that should be banned and brit milah which is a mitzvah. Disingenuous people are trying to confuse others. On small matters of principle do empires thrive or collapse.

    11 years ago

    Even if the figures on MBP cited by the Health Department are correct, the chances of serious illness are remote; less than 1 in 10,000. That being said, it’s a disgusting practice, and does absolutely nothing to improve the health or well-being of the little boy. This is one of the rare occasions I agree with Bloomberg.

    11 years ago

    *You* know, and *I* know, the rabbinical reasons for MBP, whether or not we support or negate it. However, have any of the proponents and supporters of MBP considered what a negative image the practice generates in the eyes of goyim?

    In the second decade of the 21st century a single picture can be flashed onto the television screens of millions of people around the globe. In the second decade of the 21st century, few people will stop to consider the Jewish rationale for MBP but will immediately get negative, prurient, thoughts in their minds. That, my friends, does not help klal Yisrael one single iota.

    It’s bad enough that in the second decade of the 21st century our brethren in continental Europe are now having to fight a ‘milchemet kodesh’ to protect and to preserve their right to circumcize their sons – without having to cope with propaganda pictures that do nothing to help.