Jerusalem – In Lecture Series, Rav Aharon Lichtenstein Tackles The Issue Of Homosexuality In The Orthodox Community

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    FILE 2011 Photo - Rabbi Dr. Aharon Lichtenstein, the son-in law of Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik and rosh yeshiva of the Har Etzion Yeshiva in Gush Etzion, Israel is a well-respected leader and Torah authority, particularly in Modern Orthodox circles. (Omer Miron)Jerusalem – Rabbi Dr. Aharon Lichtenstein, head of the Har Etzion Yeshiva in Israel and a respected leader in Modern-Orthodox circles, was recently asked to clarify what attitude should Orthodox Jews adopt, personally and communally, concerning homosexuals in the Orthodox community.

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    The Rav’s words were recorded and transcribed by Dov Karoll, a student of the Rav, who has posted the Rav’s reply on his blog, Pages of Faith (http://bit.ly/VygwDf).

    In a thoughtful and lengthy response, the Rav talked about the use of the term to’eivah in the Torah to describe homosexuality, and asks if that term adds “a more serious dimension” to the prohibition against homosexuality. The Rav notes that the word to’eivah is used several times in the Torah, including in a pasuk in Yechezkel to refer to people who do not feed the poor (Ezekiel 16:48-50), and in Parshas Ki Tetzei where honest weights and measures are discussed. The word to’eivah is used there in connection with those who cheat and do not have honest weights and measures (Deuteronomy 25:13-16).

    The Rav said, “…Find for me a community which responds and relates to homosexuality as if you are doing something terrible – just like it responds to those who are cheating a little bit on weights and measures. But that’s not the case, and that is because of the revulsion, which, apart from its being called to’eivah – the revulsion which is felt by the Western world toward homosexuality probably would have existed in large measure nonetheless. . . .”

    He continued, “But to be fairer and more honest with ourselves and our communities, let us understand that if you deal only with the use of the term to’eivah, you can only push that particular envelope as far as you push the cheating on the weights and measures – so all the revulsion, the moral energy, that you bring against that, you should bring against this, too.”

    The Rav cited the annual Israeli Day Parade as an example, where Jews from all over and of all different sects, march in support of Israel. But a number of years ago, when the gays said they wanted to participate and march under their banner as Jewish gays and lesbians, the religious high schools which normally participate threatened to bow out if the gays were permitted to march. The threat worked and the Jewish gays were prevented from marching.

    “You ask yourself, wait a minute, we don’t like homosexuality, but we don’t like chillul Shabbat either – all the mechallelei Shabbat of America could have marched in that parade and no one would say boo, because we are very liberal Jews, and we like to not be judgmental, and be friendly to people to the right and the left of us,” the Rav said. “So, mechallelei Shabbat – we wish they would be shomrei Shabbat, but if that’s what they are, that’s what they are. We accept them as they are and we don’t pass judgment.”

    The Rav went on to ask if it is fair then to single out Jewish homosexuals for communal condemnation and make the gays a scapegoat when we do not show such disdain for all the sinners among the Jewish people.

    “Leaving aside the term to’eivah – what is a more serious aveirah, chillul Shabbat or homosexuality? Or, for that matter, there are people who worship avodah zarah who march in the parade, too. Is it proper, is it fair, and I say this without relenting in our position to homosexuality – to decide that all the sins which the whole entire Jewish community has – all of that we can swallow and march with them, with pride and with their flags and everything they want, but this [homosexuality] is the scapegoat – dispatched to Eretz Gezairah. . .(Leviticus 16:22)?

    Admittedly, the Rav said, part of the backlash against homosexuals on the part of the Orthodox community is because the gays are “very aggressive,” causing many Orthodox Jews to be equally aggressive in response. “That’s something which I think should be avoided,” Rav Lichtenstein said.

    Though homosexuality is primarily a personal aveirah according to the Rav, today it has become a matter of public debate. “Do you let him into shul? Do you give him an aliyah? Do you let him daven for the amud? If he adopts a child, do you let the child attend your yeshiva? You could give many other examples….”

    The Rav said his own response is that while he does not approve of homosexuality in any way, he thinks that “the fire that burns in many hearts today, and the fears which go beyond the revulsion, are beyond what I think is proper. . . .My own feeling is: It’s a very unfortunate development and one that will hopefully pass, though that’s hard to say.”

    Rav Lichtenstein continued, “But, for people involved: I certainly have criticism, disapproval, but tempered with an element of sympathy. These are people who are very unfortunate. I said to one of them who came to talk to me: you are thrice punished. First of all, you are punished in that you can’t have a normal life: one of the great joys of my life is my children, my family, my wife – and children you can’t have. Secondly, you are punished in that you have no one to whom to turn – you come out, risking your own situation, taking a position. Thirdly, the disapproval generates further disapproval.”

    The Rav said that psychologists are “divided on this issue”, and are not sure whether homosexuality can be controlled. “But the material which they send me. . .reflects a readiness on the part of many, and they would be very happy if you could cure them. There are some, who are very militant, who wouldn’t want you to use the term cure – they are not sick any more than the heterosexual people are sick – that’s how they regard it – that, I think, is pushing it a bit too far. You might assume they are not to be held fully responsible if it’s a genetic development, but, certainly it is not something which we want to see become more rampant,” Rav Lichtenstein concluded.


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    64 Comments
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    UseYourHead
    UseYourHead
    11 years ago

    A voice of reason among the noise. I am thankful to Hashem that he gives us such fine Torah scholars to show us the right path.

    11 years ago

    The main problem of gays is they have an agenda that no other sinners have. They want their behavior to be accepted as normal. It is obviously not normal and should never be accepted as an alternative. If, for whatever reason, they feel they must sin, they should at least not publicize it and demand that I accept it.

    Samsaposhnik
    Samsaposhnik
    11 years ago

    Sounds reasonable.
    However the mechalilei Shabbos, for example, do what they do, but dont march with a banner proudly announcing that. The gays have an agenda, and wants banners proudly announcing what they do. Big difference.

    Crazykanoiy
    Crazykanoiy
    11 years ago

    With all due respect to Rabbi Lichtenstein his position is flawed on many accounts.

    Here is one. The Mechaleli Shabbos who march in the Israel Day Parade do not march as “the group of Mechaleli Shabbos” nor do they promote “Mechalel Shabbos Pride”. If they would it would be wrong to march with them also. The ones who are ovdei avodah zorah – according to Rav Lichtenstein do not march as a group promoting “Avodah Zorah Pride”. They march as individuals.

    I am sure that many Homosexual individuals have marched in Israel Day parades before. Nobody is required to divulge their sexual orientation before marching. The issue at hand is openly Homosexual groups that march and “pride” themselves in act that is wrong according to the Torah irrespective of it being called “Toeivah”.

    Here is two. Perhaps we should exhibit revulsion at those that cheat on measures and don’t feed the poor. Where is the graet mitzvah of being “non-judgemental” to be found? (Dan L’kaf Zchus – is only a middas chassidus in most scenarios) Almost all would agree that those acts are highly immoral and unethical. At a minimum the Torah then is comparing Homosexuality to an Immoral and Unethical act

    DRE53
    DRE53
    11 years ago

    What a clear minded analysis! Thank you rabbi lichtenstein for discussing this issue.

    simplythetruth
    simplythetruth
    11 years ago

    Reply to #2 , very well said, couldn’t have stated it better.

    JOTHEPROFESSOR
    JOTHEPROFESSOR
    11 years ago

    Rabbi Lichtenstein could also have pointed out (to stregthen his argument)also that the term “sodomy” would, if we followed Ezekiel, be defined as cruelty to the poor and to the stranger.
    Political types who are less than saintly want scapegoats. Historicsally, homosexuals were very convenient and it was accepted ‘fact’ that they were dangerous. Now, the only group left are pedophiles and other rapists who certainly are dangerous although I suspect there maybe an excess of zealotry even there – this is a difficult issue which I probably should not touch for fear of being misunderstood. Mean time, the most dangerous group, gun nuts, are immunized by the most powerful lobby in Washington.

    Dan_Daoust
    Dan_Daoust
    11 years ago

    Many commenters are rightfully pointing out the difference between marching as simply not being frum and marching under a banner of Chillul Shabbos, the latter being comparable to what the gay community tends to do. R’ Lichtenstein addresses this in his full remarks,

    The full remarks are here: http://pagesoffaith.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/perspective-on-homosexuals/

    11 years ago

    A very rational and balanced perspective and refreshing change from the usual rants of whackos like Yehuda Levin and other extremist rabbonim who distort daas torah in the name of bigotry.

    scmaness
    scmaness
    11 years ago

    that’s right and further more there hormones are un balance,it’s a medical issue too along therapy

    yaakov doe
    Member
    yaakov doe
    11 years ago

    “The Rav said that psychologists are “divided on this issue”, and are not sure whether homosexuality can be controlled.” They may not be able to control their attraction, but they can certainly control their actions. There are many things that one may be tempted to do, but refrain from due to halacha and they must do the same. If there was nothing wrong with their acting on their urges the prohibition wouldn’t be so clear in the Torah.

    11 years ago

    In order to make his point this enlightened rabbi has to say “Leaving aside the term to’eivah”. But isnt that the whole point, it IS toeiva, =disgusting.

    Maybe we have to nurture the same disgust for thiefs and that is the shortcoming, that we arent disgusted by what the Holy Torah calls disgusting. How does this leader encourage us to put aside the inconvenient words of the Torah?

    People should read and understand the true danger of modern orthodoxy, ochrei yisrael.

    volfie
    volfie
    11 years ago

    lichtenstein has always been to the far left of centrist modern orthodox thinking.
    his yellow light to shmutz will attract more confused people to this perverted life style and mida keneged mida even in his own “yeshiva” !

    enlightened-yid
    enlightened-yid
    11 years ago

    The Rav got it half way right, at least admitting that other to’evas which are cited in the same books do not evoke same disgust and fiery debate from people. How many protests against cheating and stealing from government and ponzi schemes have rabbi Levin marched against because that is an “abomination”?
    Other rabbis are coming on board slowly as they will have to accept the science and not quackery paraded as science such as from JONAH “psychologists.” At least RCA has officially announced against conversion therapies because they conceded that there is no “cure.”
    And there is no “divide” or “debate” in psychiatric, psychological, and neuroscience fields on whether this can be “cured” or not. We’ve gone a long way from religious cultural values that early researchers imposed on their studies to actually studying these fields with scientific method across the world. The only divide in psychological community is from religious psychologists: Evangelical, Mormon Christians and Jews who don’t want to accept or comprehend mainstream science as it conflicts with their faith and still want to cling to Freud and 1950s.

    54321
    54321
    11 years ago

    How about some solutions or ways to deal with this major issue?
    For the community’s sake? For the ‘victims’-homosexuals sake?-They need and deserve our help.
    What a big nisayon for these people for are homosexual. It’s something that people (like myself) who are not homosexual cannot understand.
    Not to ch’v belittle the chomer hoissur.
    Hashem yerachem.

    11 years ago

    Disgusting articale!!
    Shame on you VIN for posting it!

    RebKlemson
    RebKlemson
    11 years ago

    they want to feel accepted because judaism has absolutely no place for them. so what would you do exactly if it was you? suffer your entire life or abandon your religion? its not an easy answer

    11 years ago

    The Torah and Medrash mentions stories of Homosexuality three times.
    Once, when the people Sedom wanted to attack Lot’s guests. Second, Potifar purchased Yosef to use him sexually. Third, when Yosef the Vice King wanted to abduct Binyomin, Yehudah suspected Yosef of homosexual reasons.
    In all these cases the Violators had normal hetrosexual wives, but wanted some extra homo activity as a side pleasure, which is Ossur.
    But today, Scientists have realized and proven, that there are actually certain people, (gay), that Can Not have normal wives, and no decent human being would let his daughter marry such a person. Where is the Mekor that in such a reality, it is also Ossur?

    kolemes
    kolemes
    11 years ago

    The gay issue is the tip of the iceberg being used today to ram down a whole slew of anti moral ideas its cozy to back a “civil rights” issue but they are really out to undermine the whole bible ethical norms that why we are so against stealing has and alway was done by a certain segment of society.
    For R Lichtenstien to to come out ever so lightly in support of the gays will only help the deivents in there malicous plans to undermine the whole torah so in a sense he will become a “usefull idiot” even though that was not his intension.
    On a seprate if somone marrys a woman and she gets afflicted with a sickness is it moral to dump her just because the husband doesn’t find her attractive anymore?
    Same thing if someone “finds out he is gay” is it moral to dump his wife?

    Rifka
    Rifka
    11 years ago

    If homosexuality were a sickness, the Torah wouldn’t punish the transgressor.

    5TResident
    Noble Member
    5TResident
    11 years ago

    There are so few Jews in the world and so many billions hate us…should we be shunning other Jews?

    Ayin_Tachas_Ayin
    Ayin_Tachas_Ayin
    11 years ago

    The parallel he has drawn is completely off base…

    The gays in question, would like to be “accepted” as “orthodox” jews.

    Chaza”l say “Mumar l’mitzvah achas” is considered a “mumar l’chol hatorah”. A mumar is one who’s “bold” with his transgression.

    Mechalelei Shabbos would never be recognized as orthodox jews when they do so in a bold fassion and neither would a “Jew for Jesus” be accepted as an orthodox jew.

    The curve ball that is always thrown is the “geneivah” issue. I have never seen a jewish thief say publically that he expects others to condone his actions as acceptable. Even more so that for the most part the main buzz refers to “tax evasion” etc. which (I know that I’ll get flack for saying this) in chaza”l is not considered geneivah and there is a mitzva of pidyon shivuim for “mavrichai meches – i.e. tax evaders”. Most other instances of genaivah are highly condemned.

    “Aroyos/Sexuality” is one of the main things that separate us from the rest of the world.

    The rabbi may be ashamed of himself for giving a helping hand to those who would like to deteriorate the moral fabric of our society.

    Leviticus 20:13

    “‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both

    OPTIMIST
    OPTIMIST
    11 years ago

    what a sinnerman!!! Everyone knows there are averos and there are aveiros. You cannot compare aveires one to each other. Rape and shabbos are both 2 aveiros in the luchot. So what everyone knows that no matter how bad mechlel shabbos is. Rape is 10 times as dirty. Maybe we should ask why are we banning the rapists if we let the mechall shabbos……………………….

    cbdds
    cbdds
    11 years ago

    To the fool that wrote this;
    More like a voice of treason… His problem is being unable to reconcile his own movement’s – modern orthodoxy – tolerance of mechallelei shabbos with its rejection of homos

    Please enlighten me, MO does many things, like Torah and Midos, advocate learning a career rather than planning on living off charity, BUT DOES MO REALLY advocate or tolerate chillul Shaboss?

    grandpajoe
    grandpajoe
    11 years ago

    I agree with number 35, some I know several ‘Gay’ people and they are very nice – in fact they support my relioous observance –
    Some people are ‘born’ that way – my complaint ro the entire ‘Gay’ community – leave me alone I do not care if you are gay or not – do not force your agenda on me –
    To me that is issue today – before you did not know who was or wasn’t – now they have to BROADCAST – and that is one of the problems.
    The Rav tired to explain the issue – but there is no explanation – but what is worse –
    A gay person or a Frum person who swindles people out of their life savings

    seagul47
    seagul47
    11 years ago

    The word “to-eivo” actually means “put a distance”–as those who do certain things create a distance between them and HB”H–(Onkelos translates “to-avas Hashem” as “merachek d’Hashem”). We have a mitzva of “v’hyesem kedoshim”–strive to be holy and close to Hashem; a to’eiva puts distance between you and Hashem.

    Our attitude should be based on that approach.

    my4amos
    my4amos
    11 years ago

    Seems that the good rabbi is very confused.

    1. Saying that this particular to’eivah is like other to’eivos of not feeding the poor or cheating with wights and mesures. You would expect the good rabbi to know that the Torah insists on putting to death the disgusting men involved in this particular to’eivah and nothing like this for being stingy with poor (which is in Yehezkel, not in chumash) and cheating with weights.

    2. Marching in parades with mchallelei shabbos – not my type of activity, still those mchallelei shabbos don’t attempt to march as such b’davka, and the immoral men attempt to do exactly that.

    Does Lichtenstein not understand these distinctions? I suspect he does. But he has a point to make, and by modern allegedly orthodox, making a point takes the kadima over emes, doesn’t it?

    As for revulsion, the good rabbi has a point there. That indeed is our visceral reaction to men like those. And it’s not wrong.

    11 years ago

    Pray to Hashem for your priorities. G-d is the answer.

    DanielBarbaz
    DanielBarbaz
    11 years ago

    We all have our tests in life. Would this not be a better world if we would work on improving our own midos rather than telling others what to do?

    I do not understand why anyone would be threatened by another person’s sexual behavior. Live and let live and do not judge anyone until you have been in their situation. If this behavior is a sin then it is between that person and the ultimate judge. Let us treat everyone with respect and love. That is the real way to mekareiv people.

    Avi613
    Avi613
    11 years ago

    Its very simple it is simply within our Gd given nature to feel repulsive from this behavior !!

    Now lets take it 1 step further if someone sins w animals would this rabbi advocate also not to feel disgusted or repulsed ?? After all its just like stealing?!?!

    And would he embrace this person or a gay person and be willing for his daughter to marry him??

    Avi613
    Avi613
    11 years ago

    Also here is a quote from previous article from yu abuse scandal

    He said many of the e-mails he receives are from other YU abuse victims who have seen their lives destroyed – including divorces, drug and alcohol addictions and repeated thoughts of suicide – all as a result of the abuse they endured during their high school years.”

    And so thats another reason we feel repulsive as they many times destroy lives to seek out their pleasure

    11 years ago

    You can “hate” the sin, but not the sinner. That would be cruel & judgmental. I know, a close family member is gay. He & his friend are welcome in our home & we are very fond of them both. They never, ever behave at all inappropriately when they are with us, even outside of our home. I wish I could say the same for my straight relatives who behave like animals.

    volfie
    volfie
    11 years ago

    to #’s 16 ,34,and 41.regarding some of your responses.
    to your shock i am not from a blackhat yeshiva -although i wear one .
    his title is not used because of brevity -no disrespect intended.what does JB have to do with all this ? Blame Harvard for lichenstein’s liberalism.He has over the years
    advocated land for peace ,or rather land for jewish blood to the savages we have to deal with.finally and you will undoubtidly love this-most contempary orthodox rabbis (not all) sport some kind of hair growth on their face.
    i remember as a child when i attended a day school in far rockaway asking
    my parents why the “rabbis” in my school don’t speak yiddish nor have a beard.
    they essentially responded -welcome to america.It’s certainly out of the ordinary in Israel !

    11 years ago

    My two cents, for what they are worth…
    I think we definately are much more harsh towards people who unapolagetically follow a lifwstyle that the Torah Hakdosha labels a toaivah, and for a very good reason – in order to avoid having to feel guilt and remorse etc for their lifestyle choices they say that biologically they have no choice, that they are “born that way”…
    As a beleiver in the Ribono Shel Olam and His Torah, I maintain that by virtue of the Torah forbidding it, and calling it toaivah no less, it is impossible to say that they have no choice and that it is how they were born etc…
    How could the Torah do that to someone?
    Clearly, they may have a predisposition, or slight leaning towards that lifestyle, however, justas clearly, if they overcome it they can also have a perfectly normal relationship with a woman, and sire children etc, and overcome that leaning. In fact, recognizing that every one of us is born with a unique set of charachteristics to set up our bchira chofshis in our unique goals in our lives, this inclination, and the opportunity to overcome it, is part of Hashems Master plan – whether we understand it or not…
    To say it is how they are born and they cant help it is kefirah of the highest order.
    The Gemara mentions that Hashem creates some people with a bloodlust – can they then say that murder is ok because thats how they were created??! The Gemara says no – they should become a shochet etc…
    Finally – the Torah lifestyle has many many restrictions on various relationships, can a pedophile rationalize his perverse lifestyle by saying its not my fault this is how I was created???!!!! Anyone who buys into that totally secular rationalization is kofer b’ikkur.
    That said, the Mitzva of Ahavas Yisrael requires us treat others with respect, sympathy and dignity. Just dont try to sell us on the concept that it isnt your fault…