Jerusalem – Rabbi Dov Lipman and I have similar ideas when it comes to education. He and his party, Yesh Atid, are in my opinion, fighting God’s war to ensure that all children in Israel have the ability to get a proper education. As it stands many children from the Haredi sector in Israel only ever get an education in Judaic studies. They learn Bible and Talmud to the exclusion of all else. Yesh Atid together with its rabbinic Knesset Members Rabbis Lipman and Piron are trying to ensure that Haredi children learn core curriculum such as English and math.
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The backlash towards this from the Haredi world has been harsh. They see this is an interference with their “holy and pure” education system. Rabbi Lipman himself has been attacked by his own former Rosh Yeshiva the head of Ner Israel Yeshiva in Baltimore, Rabbi Aharon Feldman. Originally Rabbi Feldman called Rabbi Lipman a Rasha (an evil person). But after receiving a letter from Lipman explaining his position he toned that down and said that whilst Lipman was not an evil person, he has made a big mistake and should resign as a Knesset Member of the Yesh Atid Party. I assume Rabbi Lipman will not be following that advice.
In his short talk on the subject Rabbi Aharon Feldman made a few interesting points. First he admitted that in America many Haredi Yeshiva students do learn core subjects such as English and math. But he said Israel is different–although he did not explain why. But then he went on to compare the Israeli Haredi Yeshiva educational system to an Etrog (the citrus fruit that is used as part of the four kinds taken on the Jewish festival of Sukkot). He explained that any type of grafting of another type of fruit plant with a Etrog plant makes the Etrog unfit for use on Sukkot because it ceases to be an Etrog. Similarly, Rabbi Feldman argued, even a small amount of general studies in a Yeshiva in Israel, even for an hour a day, would ruin the entire Yeshiva system in israel.
This argument is typical of the type of argumentation the Haredi community makes. Clearly there is no Talmudic or Halachic foundation for not teaching children the basic skills, such as language and mathematics, that they will need to be able to earn a living later on in life. Much to the contrary the Talmud is clear that parents have an obligation to teach their children skills that will allow them to make an honest living–something that many Haredi schools, especially in Israel, fail to do.
So instead of arguing the point itself, Rabbi Aharon Feldman uses a classic ruse. He tries to bolster his argument by bringing a Jewish law that is itself uncompromising–a species of Etrog must be pure–and then compares it to another point to which is has no relevance whatever. Simply put: what has the law of Etrog got to do with the Yeshiva education system in Israel? Answer: Nothing. Interestingly Rabbi Feldman maintains that Rabbi Lipman is wrong. Yet, that the only argument he can muster to explain why Rabbi Lipman is wrong has to do with an Etrog speaks volumes.
The Haredi community seems not to understand or recognize that the stance they have taken, especially towards education is not only wrong educationally, it is anti-Torah. Kudos to Rabbi Lipman for standing up for what is right. He does not have to revert to deceptive argumentation to make his point. As Jews we believe that in the end the truth will always prevail over falsehoods–this, no doubt, will be the case here as well. I just hope that Rabbi Lipman is in this fight for the long haul and will not be deterred by the arguments and vicious attacks that are coming and will continue to come, his way. To Rabbis Lipman and Piron I say chazak ve’ematz–be brave, be strong!
Rabbi Levi Brackman is a Judaic scholar, rabbi, teacher, writer, and religious leader who has been active in both England and the United States Brackman received rabbinical ordination from Rabbi Zalman Nechemia Goldberg and Rabbi Mordechai Ashkenazi of the Tzemach Tzedek rabbinical college in the Old City of Jerusalem and has a graduate degree from University College London.
Suffice to say, Rabbi Lipman is a man with true Jewish interests at mind. The reality is that you can not suffer a defeat at the war of inhumanity until you truly run away from humanity itself. And thus is the “charedi” approach.
The addition of an analogy of jewish education purity to an “esrog” is like comparing battles of time and space to the dreaded Death Star. It is not the time or place of Judaism to ever refuse trust in G-d.
Message to Rabbi Brackman: as a Lubavitcher, why don’t you state the Rebbe’s opinion on secular education in schools? Is it because they contradict what you write here?
To begin to change the system I believe it is necesary to understand the system currently in place, to understand why it seems to work and why many people seem to stick to their positions.
The system seems to work because there is a flow of money, from parents, from benefactors (that may or may not even know what they are supporting) and from Government.
I imagine that if the system were changed many of the top machers would be lecturing to people that are no longer there, they would be out working. Aside from the issue of religious hashkafa, there would also be less need for so many at the top.
There is talk of removing US tax exemptions for charity spent out of the US. This might hurt frum life in Israel as much as any Israeli Government cutbacks proposed.
We have rabbunim & rushei yesivos & a torah so we will follow there advice not this so-called rabbi
Well put!
But a little chutzpah!
it is my understanding that Yesh Atid wants to enforce much more then basic english and math. not only much more but actual “apikorsesh” material in order to get funding. They are out to oust the frum, rachmana litslan.
i don’t know this writer but he does not represent the ones he received smicha from. or he does not know the whole picture.
No. Rabbi Lipman is just wrong.
You cannot legislate that the cheders have to teach this or that- there are many wicked people in the Israeli government that would love to twist that to their own purposes. Now it is math and science, next it is evolution and sex education.
rav feldman is a genius of a man , i dont know if you have ever met him? but he was also on President Bush’s Advisory board of some sort. but before you bash him maybe you should speak to him.. on the side i am a college educated person on the masters level and although i believe in a college education understand and respect how the charaidem feel .
to vois iz neias is there a way to unlike an article? this author and as an extension yourselves are attacking a gadol hador and that is not appropriate.
One [double] question: Rabbi Brackman, the word on the street is that you claim to be a Lubavitcher chossid, so would the Rebbe ever have written the words that you have, and would you feel comfortable in printing your article and placing it at the rebbe’s Ohel?
The truth is that instead of arguing why Yeshivos in Israel should have English, we should be arguing why Yeshivos in America have English, as they shouldn’t.
A yeshiva is a place for boys to learn Torah, and Torah needs not secular studies to enhance it. For thousands of years are Yeshivos were fine without limudei chol. We were able to find parnassah,and live throughout the ages. The comparison of a fathers need to teach his son a profession, with the need for every student to study English, Math and other subjects for hours every day is not an honest comparison.
We have unfortunately developed a generation of “yeshiva students” who are now convinced that teaching English, and going to college is compatible with frum lifestyle, and is the best case scenario for bnei Torah.
The truth is that Torah has to be pure as Rabbi Feldman has said, not just in israel but also the U.S. We need not waste our children’s time by teaching them anything that is not Torah or not essential to specific parnassah, or the minimum of language and math skills necessary to achieve in today’s world. I believe that Yeshiva Ohlay Torah of Chabad has never taught secular studies and was fine without it. Rabbi Lipman would be best off fighting for purity in Torah, and listening to our Gedolim, rather than promoting limudei chol. his teaching our gedolim his “great wisdom” learned by the fact that his yeshiva accepted limudei chol is arrogant, unfortunate, and a sign of the times.
well said, it will do well to my fellow charaidim to learn some skills and get a job instead of schnoring from fellow hard working charadim here or schnoring from the israeli gov.the more i read about dov lipman the more i conclude hes a sincere person. I wish him well…
Lipman and Piron are out of their league. It is foolish to claim that they have a better understanding of Torah than the leading Rabbinic decisors of our day. One would be hard pressed to find a leading Talmudic scholar that back their campaign.
Rabbi Feldman is not the first to make a distinction between Israel and America. Rabbi Samason Raphel Hirsch the leading proponent of secular studies in the Orthodox world refused to back the introduction of secular studies into the curriculum of the schools in Petach Tikva. There exist to distinct world views in Orthodox Judaism. Torah Only and Torah Im Derech Eretz or the similar but different Torah Umada. If Rabbi Brackman wants a true understanding of the issues at hand he would do well by reading “These and Those” by Rabbi Simon Schwalb instead of harping on the Esrog analogy.
“Rabban Gamliel, the son of Rabbi Shmuel Hanassi says, Torah study is good with an occupation, for the exertion of them both makes sin forgotten. All Torah study that is not joined with work will cease in the end, and leads to sin” (Pirkei Avos 2:2)
“Rabbi Elazar ben Azariah says, If there is no Torah, there is no worldly occupation, if there is no worldly occupation, there is no Torah…. If there is no flour there is no Torah, if there is not Torah, there is no flour…” (Pirkei Avos 3:21)
Torah learning together with work were always the Jewish way, with the exception of great Torah scholars. We never historically had entire communities where no one worked. Why do today’s rabbanim, who are so careful to follow the ways of our holy ancestors and not enact chidushim, enact a new way of life of Torah Jewry? Are they afraid to lose their base of followers if they are permitted to have a general education? They should pasul learning Rambam, who was a Torah scholar and a scientist and physician, and all the other Torah luminaries who had both Torah and general knowledge, and worked in various professions.
I have a secular education and I grew up FFB. Brackman and Lipman -you aren’t Rabbis. Even if you’d be 100% right, which many Gedolim say In Israel there shouldn’t be any secular education, who gave you the right to stuff this down people’s throat? This is upto the parents, not You people in the Israeli Gov. This isn’t within the realm of child abuse that gives the State the right to take over in the parents’ place.
The hypocrisy of the left always telling the Charedim what to do. How about fixing up your Non-religious society? Ya know the society in Israel that has violent crime, AIDS, abortions, etc. Funny, the Frum society in Israel even without their secular education doesn’t seem to suffer, to the same degree, from the society ills as the rest of the Country!
Can we be honest about the idea of changing a school system when we don’t attend or run the system? We all need to try to take a step back and be honest with our selves. Could We(americans) be wrong and they(hardi) be right? is our opinion always right and smarter then the other? Rabbi Feldman acknowledge his mistake, yet still stated his opinion quit strongly. I think what he was saying was quit clearly, that in truth in the States we should not have it either. Rabbi Brackman on the other hand has his opinion. Its a free world.
One last point, the blessing that Rabbi Brackman gave Rabbi Lipman was חזק ואמץ which comes from a pasuk in Yehoshua Chapter 1,pasuk 6. חזק ואמץ כי אתה תנחיל את העם הזה את הארץ אשר נשבעתי לאבותם לתת להם Rashi explains the words חזק ואמץ to mean “בדרך ארץ” Rabbi Lipman maybe should remember, that to help people is to respect them and NOT fight them, and as Rashi Says with בדרך ארץ. (But then again maybe Rashi is wrong and to help people its better to fight them then to do it with דרך ארץ. Why can’t I have an opinion to I’m a “Rabbi” too)
Even if the Government in Israel implements secular studies in the yeshivas the classes will be a joke. No one will take the classes seriously. Just take a look at the most chardei communities in America i.e Lakewood.
Firstly id like tooint out that Rabbi Brackman is for quite some time not affiliated with Chabad, he was a Shliach in CO, but no more.
Secondly, true the Rebbe learned in Sorbone, but to know his opinion on the subject of secular education (which was partially based on his learning these subjects) read what he wrote and answered to many who asked his opinion on it – its not correct to speculate when he clearly published his opinion.
As a Lubavitcher Chossid (if that is indeed what he considers himself), Rabbi Brackman should be ashamed of this Op-ed.
Even though the Rebbe didn’t make a blanket ban on Secular education there can be no doubt ( as is clear from his many talks and letters on the subject) that he strongly discouraged it as much as possible.
The Rebbe definitely encouraged and founded schools which had a Secular curriculum but that was clearly because that was the only way the students would come to the school for the Jewish education.
To deny that the Rebbe was against Secular education and sought to minimize it as much as possible would be blatantly untrue.
To those commenters who try to imply things from the Rebbe’s own personal life: If you meant it seriously you are being foolish, if your intention was to mock, you should be ashamed of yourself.
The issue here is not whether secular subjects is a good or bad thing for Chareidi schools. It is the meddling of any element outside of the religious community in its own internal affairs and choices for its own community members.
Just as Lapid rejects the Hareidi criticism of his posting on Facebook on Shabbos (rachmono litzlan) because he doesn’t keep Shabbos, and nobody should meddle in his private choices, Lapid, by the same token may not meddle in the private choices of the Hareidi community in terms of their education.
So, no, Lipman is not fighting G-d’s war, because to him, its not about the State funding or not funding a Yeshivah or Cheder that doesn’t abide by its rules per se; it’s about his deeply held belief that the Cheder or Yeshivah rejecting secular studies need to be essentially reformed. He think the State should be imposing upon the Chareidim a lifestyle that is antithetical to their core beliefs — and that is nothing Lipman should be tampering with.
אל תגעו במשיחי – אלו תינוקות של בית רבן!
I met with MK Lipman. He is a good man and is lishma. Sometimes its hard to recognize the truth. The issues he is grappling with are much more nuanced, sophisticated, and important than those on this message board have made it seem. Let’s just ask that Hashem grant him Siyatah Dishmaya, so that whatever is the Lord’s Will, will be implemented by all us mortals.
More importantly, we all need to respect each other. One is allowed to disagree respectfully. It’s critical for our survival as a Nation that we do this.
Secular studies only enhance ones understanding of Torah. With today’s advances in science and medicine, how can a Rabbi even hope to properly apply Torah if he doesn’t understand the subject matter? Once, telling if someone were dead was as simple as seeing if he breathed. A pig was treif. People lived only on the Earth. Now, we have medical devices that pump blood and air. We can transfer genes from a treif animal to something kosher (they already have put scorpion genes in cabbage). We are starting to live and travel in space. How can someone posken on such issues if he has never learned anything about the underlying science? Rambam studied both science and medicine and his understanding of Torah cannot be challenged. Why is it acceptable for today’s scholars to ignore this example?
I listened to Rabbi Dov Lipman tonight on Zev Brenner’s program. Dov Lipman sounds genial and has a voice of good favor for Torah as I have candidly experienced.
Based on the above comments -there appears to be much opposition for Charaidim integrating into Israeli & western culture – even from an “”Ochel Mitoch P’Soles perspective”. Has anyone of these Shita-nicks who oppose compromise wondered about the many thousands of Yidden over the centuries who have gone OTD precisely because there was this backwardness and lack of vision that is on display from the majority if these comments. Or that doesn’t matter – “The system works” The 8-10% ( & yes – it is that high) that leave yiddishkeit is not our problem – its theirs. Is this who we’ve become?
There are Muslim communities that do essentially the same thing: no secular education. They have no other books in their homes but the Koran and related commentaries. You can see where that leads. Unbalanced Fundamentalism leads to fanaticism. The chareidi schools do a disservice by creating vocationally illiterate young people who are consigned to institutional poverty. It’s not the Torah way. It is the fanatic way of a cult, however.
You write..
Simply put: what has the law of Etrog got to do with the Yeshiva education system in Israel? Answer: Nothing.
You show your utter ignorance, even a little child of 6 years old knows the midrash that the etrog represents the heart!
And so the rabbi is saying just as the etrog is pure so too the heart of the jewish child should remain pure.
so simple but maybe because of your secualr studies your heart is not so pure and so you couldnt understand this simple concept that most 6 year olds know.
It seems to me that some Rosh Yeshivahs should not comment on matters that they are not familiar with. Specially about an publicly financed education system in Israel and then having to take his foot out of his mouth. It makes him lose any semblance of credibility.
In Quebec the law is the same. If you dont want to teach our full curriculum then you dont get govt support (which is significant) thats all. A secular state should have nothing to do with religion period. We dont say Mi Sheberach for their troops whjo defend our lives but we want them to support of frum lifestyles fully. mixing religion into the state has led to tremendous chilul hashem of fighting between “gedolim” politicians and masses of Jews have developed hate for each other. this is way more unacceptable than arguing whether your child should learn basic skills so he apply for a honest job when he grows up.
Can’t be that much of a “judaic scholar” if he doesn’t know who to disagree with. Taking issue with a recognized Rosh Yeshiva is as Chazal put it “playing with fire.” Rav Feldman is also one of the most open in addressing issues of the day al pi Torah, besides having sterling character that any of us would wish for our children! When will the tone change to one of having respect for our Chachomim today? I’ll answer that: When websites like this, stop giving a platform to those who want to criticize to promote their OWN agendas, not what’s good for the Klal. Shame on VIN.
Kudos to “rabbi” lipman for thumbing his nose at his own rebbe. This is sadly the era of “shfot hashoftim” where the laymen try to lead the true torah leaders. For shame.
I suggest everyone here googles “ad hominem” and logical fallacies. Watching largely illiterate Jews argue is embarassing because the vast majority of you don’t even know how to form an argument that has any logical validity.
Truth is not dependent on who is speaking. Emes is Emes, whether out of the mouth of a sage, a babe or a fool. The L rebbe was either right or wrong when he said something because the statement was true or not – but not because he was the rebbe!
This is a one-sided article…
I spoke to a prominent Chareidi MK who BTW is just as open-minded as you…
This has nothing to to about ‘education’ and has everything to do with ‘akiras hadas’…
Go get the facts straight before you shoot from the hip…!