Welcome, Guest! - or
Easy to remember!  »  VinNews.com

New York - Rabbi Lipman: People Have A Skewed View Of Yesh Atid

Published on: May 12, 2013 08:44 PM
Change text size Text Size  
FILEFILE

New York - In an interview that aired last night on Zev Brenner’s Talkline program, Knesset member Rabbi Dov Lipman spoke about a number of topics including the recent controversy sparked by his words on introducing basic secular education in Chareidi schools, the Women of the Wall and his thoughts on drafting Chareidim into the Israeli army.

Rabbi Lipman said that he does not view the debate regarding his stance that any school that accepts money from the Israeli government should be required to incorporate basic math and English into their curriculums as a major controversy, but instead explained that dialogue regarding the issue can only be productive for b’nei yeshiva and the Torah world.

The full radio interview below:

Asked how he felt about being informed that his remarks marked him as someone who was no longer a member of the Chareidi community Rabbi Lipman responded, “As far as I know, it is Hakadosh Baruch Hu the one who is bochen k’layos v’lev and not really for basar v’dam to do that.”

Advertisement:

Holding strong to his stance that many within the Chareidi community are starved for the basic educational skills that would give them the ability to find meaningful jobs, Rabbi Lipman explained that the program being discussed would be specifically geared to the yeshiva system.

“Keep in mind, and I have actually been tasked with this, we are talking about using books that are used in the yeshivos in America that great roshei yeshiva and gedolim have in their own yeshivos and translating those books to be used here,” explained Rabbi Lipman, adding that in the interest of fairness, the budget would continue to provide thirty percent of the funding previously given even to schools that refuse to implement a general studies program.

Rabbi Lipman outlined the proposed plan for drafting Chareidi young men, which would not begin until the age of 21, saying that yeshiva study for boys between the ages of 18 and 20 is crucial.  Given a number of approximately 7000 chareidi boys reaching the age of 21 each year, the proposed plan would allow 1800 Chareidi boys to remain in yeshiva.  The remainder would either go into a Chareidi unit, which would offer minyanim, learning and bases that would be religiously appropriate or would spend their time performing national service, after which time they would be permitted to enter the work force.

Rabbi Lipman described the plan as, “A historic moment for the Torah world.  This is going to be the first time in the history of the state that Torah learning is actually being viewed as doing service for Am Yisroel.  It is going to be part of the program…We recognize that these boys who are learning, it’s not that they’re exempt.  Their learning is significant enough that we view it as service.”

Rabbi Lipman dismissed the notion that Ner Israel was considering revoking his semicha, calling it nothing more than a baseless rumor and characterized much of the emotional exchanges that can take place in the Knesset as grandstanding.

“You don’t understand that Moshe Gafni of Degel Hatorah can get up on the Knesset bima and scream chai v’kayam and then five minutes later I see him in the Knesset cafeteria for the members of Knesset and he is sitting with Yair Lapid and they are talking and laughing. People don’t see that and that is unfortunate.”

Reiterating again that many people have a skewed view of Yesh Atid, Rabbi Lipman insisted that there is no agenda to secularize the Chareidim and that while the Chareidi political leadership is against offering any form of secular education, the average Chareidi citizen is just looking for a way to feed his family.

“The words of support have been continuous my email box is full, especially from Chareidim and from people who come to meet with me who say ‘Keep going, we need this to happen.’  And it is clear from so many angles that this is the right thing, it is the best thing for the community and there is no sinister intention…It is not just me saying that. People don’t know Yair.  People don’t know education minister Shay Piron, they don’t know the people in the party who I have had a chance to have gotten to know…Hopefully over time people will come to realize that the goal here is not that anybody should be less religious, the goal is that the community itself should be more sustainable and thrive and really contribute to the State of Israel.”



More of today's headlines

New York - It's a glaring aspect of the most talked about issue in Albany's burgeoning public corruption investigation that few are willing to raise publicly: Is the... Damascus - At least 82,000 people have been killed and 12,500 others are missing after two years of civil war in Syria, the opposition Syrian Observatory for Human...

 

Total37

Read Comments (37)  —  Post Yours »

1

 May 12, 2013 at 09:08 PM Anonymous Says:

What's clear is this. Yesh Atid is fighting against Shabbos, Giyur, Jewish marriage, Pesach Yeshiva's, and everything Jewish. If an american politician would have said half the things he said, against any minority group he would've been arrested. anyone who doesn't agree with this doesn't know the basic facts and should please learn them before commenting. Lipman is a partner in this all out war against god, that's a fact, completely regardless to anything related to education. The rest is irrelevant.

2

 May 12, 2013 at 09:07 PM favish Says:

' im hurav dome lealach hashem tzvuous yevakshu torah mipihu vim lav al yevakshu torah mipihu' 1) according to him there is no such thing as onlt hashem 'bochen libos' but we psat is not like him 2) lipman is a perfect example of the memrah...especially the picture of privious article regardim him..picture the igros moshe, minchus yitzchok etc etc like that

3

 May 12, 2013 at 09:11 PM Chaim Says:

He is being played by the chilonim, at best. His agenda is parnassah. He will have all the weak hands supporting him. His agenda is not more Torah. Look at the amount of Torah being lost here.

Being punitive to Yeshivos who don't care for Ner Yisroel style Chinuch, is being punitive to a large portion of klal Yisroel. Punitive has no place here. If Yesh Atid really cared about the charedim, If we really didnt understand who they really are, they would offer benefits to those who had some level of math or english skills, not punishment to a majority of Yeshivos. It would also yield a healthier result. This result is a war, and will never work. Period. End of story.

4

 May 12, 2013 at 09:30 PM chosid Says:

He will bezras Hashem fail in his misguided attempt.

5

 May 12, 2013 at 09:31 PM AnonN Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

What's clear is this. Yesh Atid is fighting against Shabbos, Giyur, Jewish marriage, Pesach Yeshiva's, and everything Jewish. If an american politician would have said half the things he said, against any minority group he would've been arrested. anyone who doesn't agree with this doesn't know the basic facts and should please learn them before commenting. Lipman is a partner in this all out war against god, that's a fact, completely regardless to anything related to education. The rest is irrelevant.

Please explain how they are fighting against any of the things you mentioned.
No one ever said its illegal to keep shabbos, they are just saying it isn't illegal to break shabbos.
No one is telling anyone who they need to be mgayer, they are just saying that groups can define giyur how they want, not how the eida does.
No one is saying its illegal to keep pesach, they are just saying its not illegal to eat chometz on pesach.
No one is forcing any yeshiva to do anything, you just dont get funding if you dont teach core subjects, JUST LIKE IN AMERICA.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about, throwing people in jail. 1) we have freedom of speech in this country, and 2) all the things he is recommending are the law of the land here in the USA.

You obviously won't answer, but it would be nice to hear your response, because your argument as of now makes no sense.
The fact that someone else doesn't keep shabbos or kashrus or pesach, or your idea of who is a jew doesn't affect your ability to do those things the way you want.

6

 May 12, 2013 at 09:44 PM ayinglefunadorf Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

What's clear is this. Yesh Atid is fighting against Shabbos, Giyur, Jewish marriage, Pesach Yeshiva's, and everything Jewish. If an american politician would have said half the things he said, against any minority group he would've been arrested. anyone who doesn't agree with this doesn't know the basic facts and should please learn them before commenting. Lipman is a partner in this all out war against god, that's a fact, completely regardless to anything related to education. The rest is irrelevant.

"All out war against G-D" So if you get a job is against Hashem. Nebach.

7

 May 12, 2013 at 09:44 PM The Professor Says:

Reply to #3  
Chaim Says:

He is being played by the chilonim, at best. His agenda is parnassah. He will have all the weak hands supporting him. His agenda is not more Torah. Look at the amount of Torah being lost here.

Being punitive to Yeshivos who don't care for Ner Yisroel style Chinuch, is being punitive to a large portion of klal Yisroel. Punitive has no place here. If Yesh Atid really cared about the charedim, If we really didnt understand who they really are, they would offer benefits to those who had some level of math or english skills, not punishment to a majority of Yeshivos. It would also yield a healthier result. This result is a war, and will never work. Period. End of story.

The Yesh Atid program has nothing to do with being punitive with yeshivas. As difficult as it may be for some to swallow, taking public money means accepting the policies that go with it. In the US, places like Yeshiva University and Touro College can not discriminate against students whose lifestyles may differ from those recited by Chazal, for they accept public money in order to keep the programs running for the majority of students who do accept the yoke of Torah. Put very bluntly, if the chareidi yeshivas have issues teaching math and English to students, let them decline funding from the Israeli government. Absent any receipt of government funds, they are free to do what they deem to be appropriate. But they can't have it both ways!

8

 May 12, 2013 at 09:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
favish Says:

' im hurav dome lealach hashem tzvuous yevakshu torah mipihu vim lav al yevakshu torah mipihu' 1) according to him there is no such thing as onlt hashem 'bochen libos' but we psat is not like him 2) lipman is a perfect example of the memrah...especially the picture of privious article regardim him..picture the igros moshe, minchus yitzchok etc etc like that

Your posting makes Lipman's point. We cannot tolerate another generation of iliterate and dysfunctional yidden who can mumble "shor she'nagach shor" but cannot compose a coherent paragraph and are able to sit behind a shteder 24x7 while their families have to rely on tzadakah and public subsidies to survive.

9

 May 12, 2013 at 10:01 PM radrad Says:

I guess we should keep the status quo.
I only had four people from eretz yisrael today knock on my door becasue they have parnasa problems; Can't get a decent job, government cutting subsidies etc
Story is always the same; beard and paiyos different color and length though...

Maybe we are no different than the Arabs; maybe our so called leaders want us to remain in poverty so that they can mind control - chalila.

Rabbi Lipman-Kol hakavod. I think what you are attempting is nothing short of heroic. HKB'H does not want us to be an army of shneurers

10

 May 12, 2013 at 10:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Yesh Atid is the up in coming jewish circle these days. I am quite amazed at the ditties all over the internet coming from these new jewish political parties in Israel today. If there is a skirmish that goes far, it is likely to be under the auspices of the heavens themselves. And if there is a fraud that we do indeed respond to such as the WotW, we are likely going to see a bigger envelope of freedom emerge for all who fight the indiscretion in the World To Come.

11

 May 12, 2013 at 10:23 PM Chaim Says:

Reply to #7  
The Professor Says:

The Yesh Atid program has nothing to do with being punitive with yeshivas. As difficult as it may be for some to swallow, taking public money means accepting the policies that go with it. In the US, places like Yeshiva University and Touro College can not discriminate against students whose lifestyles may differ from those recited by Chazal, for they accept public money in order to keep the programs running for the majority of students who do accept the yoke of Torah. Put very bluntly, if the chareidi yeshivas have issues teaching math and English to students, let them decline funding from the Israeli government. Absent any receipt of government funds, they are free to do what they deem to be appropriate. But they can't have it both ways!

You don't get it. There is no law in israel dictating subjects one must teach in order to recieve funding. He is creating this law at the expense of yeshivas, who don't care for his law. How about laws saying that colleges in israel who have bible critic classes lose funding ? How about not giving funding unless they study enough Torah. Since when are Yeshivos responsible to teach English, in a country where the main language isn't English.
In America unfortunately there are standards based on American culture. It's unfortunate we have those laws. In Israel there aren't and shouldn't be any such laws. As far as parnassah, let them worry about it when they reach parnassah age.
It is the zionists who are at fault for the current charedi parnassah issue. They always had the army as an anti-charedi zone. Then they criminalized non army goers from getting jobs. Again punitive measures against charedim. Now they realize it hasn't worked. What they ought to do is make a volunteer army, and allow everyone to work. Instead they can't get over the hatred of charedim, and need to blame them for all their woes. Pawns like Rabbi Lipman are perfect for their agenda. Bring charedim Into the work place, but hurt the funding for the Yeshivos. And hurt the amount of Torah being studied. The Gedolim see through this, that is why they all have come out strongly against him.

12

 May 12, 2013 at 10:28 PM jack-l Says:

Those 1800 boys are going to be the cream of the crop. They will be such incredible talmidai chachamim that all of klal yisroel will admire them and follow their leadership willingly.

13

 May 12, 2013 at 10:30 PM StevenWright Says:

Reply to #5  
AnonN Says:

Please explain how they are fighting against any of the things you mentioned.
No one ever said its illegal to keep shabbos, they are just saying it isn't illegal to break shabbos.
No one is telling anyone who they need to be mgayer, they are just saying that groups can define giyur how they want, not how the eida does.
No one is saying its illegal to keep pesach, they are just saying its not illegal to eat chometz on pesach.
No one is forcing any yeshiva to do anything, you just dont get funding if you dont teach core subjects, JUST LIKE IN AMERICA.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about, throwing people in jail. 1) we have freedom of speech in this country, and 2) all the things he is recommending are the law of the land here in the USA.

You obviously won't answer, but it would be nice to hear your response, because your argument as of now makes no sense.
The fact that someone else doesn't keep shabbos or kashrus or pesach, or your idea of who is a jew doesn't affect your ability to do those things the way you want.

You just made all the points against him yourself with your own finger(s).
If its not illegal to "break" shabbos, then its automatically anti-torah and and anti-judaism. And so on and so forth with all the other points.
And "just like in america".....
Is america your role model of what a Jewish country should be? Dont you understand that its just another goyishe medina which happens to be a malchus shel chessed?
Now go back to your drawing board. But please not on shabbos......

14

 May 12, 2013 at 10:35 PM yaakov doe Says:

Rabbi Lipman seems sincere,but somewhat naive. He's an accidential Kenesset member since his part never expected to win enough seats for him to serve in that body, and they just don't know what to do with him.

15

 May 12, 2013 at 10:55 PM berelw Says:

WHAT ARE ALL YOU GUYS TALKING ABOUT? he has valued points. i think this guy is sincere. i dont which world you guys come from but there is a big huge problem in eretz yisroel why are almost all charaidim are poor and here in the us most are comfortable....because here we have some knowledge and work...in israel its tabo..its nuts....a little knowledge of arithmetic writing spelling is a good idea....i also would like to point out i have the greast respect for gedolei yisroel...but a few years ago one of our gedolim didnt know what a credit card was...!! he sees the pain and backwardness of his fellows and want to help. hes in a great position as its from a non charadi party...charadi party's in israel lost a tremendous amount of credibility.

16

 May 12, 2013 at 11:13 PM Halaivy Says:

all he is trying to do is to enforce the modern orthodox agenda on the ultra orthodox and he will not be successful while even the Mizrachi rabbis and the rosh yeshivah of the modern yeshivah agree that the charedim are entitled to their way

17

 May 12, 2013 at 11:24 PM magic johnson Says:

I would love to see Dov Lipman serve in the army before he shoves his policy down the throats.... He is very athletic and a great basketball player. He could use those skills in the Israeli Army. He is really good. An Amazing athlete at sports Star.

18

 May 13, 2013 at 01:00 AM Facts1 Says:

"The remainder would either go into a Chareidi unit, which would offer minyanim, learning and bases that would be religiously appropriate"

"Religiously appropriate" is something that each communities rav should decide not a fringe barely modern orthdox group!

For them "Religiously appropriate" is something like having them listen to women sing for cohesive reasons or inspected in their private areas by woman!

Given Israel's history with the "Yemen" Jews who were also going to supposedly be handled "Religiously appropriate" but then had their children "stolen" from them and sold on the black market for a few shekels and the remaining forcfully stolen their identities by the mechanisms of the Zionsits, who would hand over their religion to them? Who?

19

 May 13, 2013 at 01:01 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Halaivy Says:

all he is trying to do is to enforce the modern orthodox agenda on the ultra orthodox and he will not be successful while even the Mizrachi rabbis and the rosh yeshivah of the modern yeshivah agree that the charedim are entitled to their way

Exactly!

20

 May 13, 2013 at 01:26 AM JLemE Says:

Reply to #12  
jack-l Says:

Those 1800 boys are going to be the cream of the crop. They will be such incredible talmidai chachamim that all of klal yisroel will admire them and follow their leadership willingly.

Or those 1800 boys will be the sons of the wealthy and influential.

21

 May 13, 2013 at 01:59 AM derecheretz Says:

What happened to simple common decency when we speak of other people? What happened to "tochehcha" being done in a way that does not shame and embarrass others? What happened to respectful disagreement on issues? If we who are Bnei and Bnot Torah are not refined enough to find the right words to rebuke or chastise someone, if we can't do it in a menchlich way, what has the Torah done for us? Let's turn down the heat and not scream and yell or throw chairs at each other. We should all have a joyous and deep Chag Kabbalat HaTorah.

22

 May 13, 2013 at 05:19 AM BaruchGershom Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

What's clear is this. Yesh Atid is fighting against Shabbos, Giyur, Jewish marriage, Pesach Yeshiva's, and everything Jewish. If an american politician would have said half the things he said, against any minority group he would've been arrested. anyone who doesn't agree with this doesn't know the basic facts and should please learn them before commenting. Lipman is a partner in this all out war against god, that's a fact, completely regardless to anything related to education. The rest is irrelevant.

Your remark has nothing to do with any platform published by Yesh Atid, or even by any published words by any of their MKs. If you had heard MK Ruth Calderon's speach -- where she gave a remarkably astute Gemara shiur -- you would know that the party believes that Torah and Talmud should be taught in Secular schools as a requirement! Lapid himself said this. How can we lose that opportunity? Also three Y.A. MKs are shomer Shabbos (two are Orthodox rabbis, including party #2 Rabbi Shai Peron, the Education Minister. Finally, demographic studies show that in a generation or two, Chareidim will be a plurality of Israeli voters. Do you think that our schools' are giving students the ability to run the country, keep its infrastructure working, and maintain an economy that has been based on high-technology exports? Do you think our yeshiva students even understand what a demographic study is and how to do the math? How was a mixed studies education OK for Gedolim like Rav Finkel, zt'l, and not our children?

23

 May 13, 2013 at 05:36 AM BarryLS1 Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

What's clear is this. Yesh Atid is fighting against Shabbos, Giyur, Jewish marriage, Pesach Yeshiva's, and everything Jewish. If an american politician would have said half the things he said, against any minority group he would've been arrested. anyone who doesn't agree with this doesn't know the basic facts and should please learn them before commenting. Lipman is a partner in this all out war against god, that's a fact, completely regardless to anything related to education. The rest is irrelevant.

You left off that they are, "rapists, child molesters, bank robbers and murderers. Being obsurd doesn't help ones credibility. People can have legit. opinions that differ from yours.

Many Chareidim are applauding Lippman. They can't speak out in theeir communities, or they will be ostrisized. G-d forbid, that a husband should have skills to support his family, but it's easier for the wife to have a dozen children and work two jobs, besides keeping house.

24

 May 13, 2013 at 06:10 AM SandmanNY Says:

Most of you are missing the point. You think if the yeshivas add adapted math and English to their curriculum, the talmidim will be compromised. Not true. In a world in which business is global and math and English are essential, how do you expect the talmidim to have any functional edge in the job market? Personally, the chareidi tendency to react rather than respond just makes me sad. The attitude perceived by the watching world is one of elitism, condemnation, ignorance and just plain meanness. This is not the Torah way. The Torah mandates that a man must work AND labor in Torah. A few have full time labor in Torah. Why don't you all see this?

25

 May 13, 2013 at 08:51 AM clear-thinker Says:

Reply to #20  
JLemE Says:

Or those 1800 boys will be the sons of the wealthy and influential.

Wait let me read your comment again. Ok I am ready. You should do teshuva. How can you even think that the great of our people would do anything to promote the safety or standing of their children at the expense of others. This could never happen with frum Yidden. After all it has never happened in the history of the Jewish community, especially the Chareidi community.

26

 May 13, 2013 at 09:46 AM The Professor Says:

Reply to #11  
Chaim Says:

You don't get it. There is no law in israel dictating subjects one must teach in order to recieve funding. He is creating this law at the expense of yeshivas, who don't care for his law. How about laws saying that colleges in israel who have bible critic classes lose funding ? How about not giving funding unless they study enough Torah. Since when are Yeshivos responsible to teach English, in a country where the main language isn't English.
In America unfortunately there are standards based on American culture. It's unfortunate we have those laws. In Israel there aren't and shouldn't be any such laws. As far as parnassah, let them worry about it when they reach parnassah age.
It is the zionists who are at fault for the current charedi parnassah issue. They always had the army as an anti-charedi zone. Then they criminalized non army goers from getting jobs. Again punitive measures against charedim. Now they realize it hasn't worked. What they ought to do is make a volunteer army, and allow everyone to work. Instead they can't get over the hatred of charedim, and need to blame them for all their woes. Pawns like Rabbi Lipman are perfect for their agenda. Bring charedim Into the work place, but hurt the funding for the Yeshivos. And hurt the amount of Torah being studied. The Gedolim see through this, that is why they all have come out strongly against him.

I'm afraid that you don't get it. The public policy in Israel has changed. Math and English will now be required if you want to accept public funds. Gee, it seems that such famous amoratzim, l'havdil, such as the Rambam, Ho-Rav Shamshon Rofoel Hirsch, and the Lubavitcher Rebbe had extensive knowledge of subject matter which you would probably call limudei Chol, and it didn't seem to take away from their g'dulah. I suspect that there is a pervasive fear within the Chareidi community that the mandate to teach mathematics is but the camel's nose in the tent. Whether it is or not remains to be seen; however, the ability to withstand such challenges to a the existing educational practice which might best be described as "minhag avosaynu b'yodaynu" will be much stronger if they don't accept funding from a government they don't trust.

27

 May 13, 2013 at 10:45 AM ChaimAharon Says:

Israel is not America. Doesn't everyone know this? What is good for American frum Jews is not necessarily good for Israel's. Lipman wants to help those chareidi youths who cannot sit and learn, to get a job. Good. Do it! But why force it on those boys who do want to continue learning Torah. If there are 7000 21-year olds each year, Lipman wants to FORCE close to 5200 of them to leave learning even though they want to! He should help those who want to work and equally (or more) help those who want to learn. He will have on his G-dly scorecard that he will be forcing 5000 boys every year to leave learning.
Another issue is: if Lipman is indeed Chareidi as he claims, who is his Rav TODAY who guides him? Does his Rav advise him to force boys to stop learning? Non-chareidi frum Jews also have guiding Rabbonim. Who is Lipman's??? If Lipman does not have a guiding Rav, then he isn't acting like a frum Jew.
And lastly, does Lipman know better than the chareidi gedolim what is good for chareidi society??? Does that not border on chutzpah?!

28

 May 13, 2013 at 10:55 AM Barsechel Says:

Please read Lipmans stance on Geirus, it will be clear to anyone that Lipman is an Apikoires -
He is a disgrace he is the Askenazi counterpart of that other Apikoires Am Salem who was kicked out of Shass.
Both of them ahould be put in a cherem - !

29

 May 13, 2013 at 11:14 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
Chaim Says:

You don't get it. There is no law in israel dictating subjects one must teach in order to recieve funding. He is creating this law at the expense of yeshivas, who don't care for his law. How about laws saying that colleges in israel who have bible critic classes lose funding ? How about not giving funding unless they study enough Torah. Since when are Yeshivos responsible to teach English, in a country where the main language isn't English.
In America unfortunately there are standards based on American culture. It's unfortunate we have those laws. In Israel there aren't and shouldn't be any such laws. As far as parnassah, let them worry about it when they reach parnassah age.
It is the zionists who are at fault for the current charedi parnassah issue. They always had the army as an anti-charedi zone. Then they criminalized non army goers from getting jobs. Again punitive measures against charedim. Now they realize it hasn't worked. What they ought to do is make a volunteer army, and allow everyone to work. Instead they can't get over the hatred of charedim, and need to blame them for all their woes. Pawns like Rabbi Lipman are perfect for their agenda. Bring charedim Into the work place, but hurt the funding for the Yeshivos. And hurt the amount of Torah being studied. The Gedolim see through this, that is why they all have come out strongly against him.

The army is just an excuse. they are not interested in working and have an es kumpt mir atttitude. They just want handouts. even if you made the army voluntery only a small minorty would work. The rest would still learn and take programs. The biggest proof is that part of this new law will enbale those already over 22 (maybe 26 not sure excat age but some age) when the law is enacted can go to work without any army service. I want to see how many of those in that age group will become accountants, lawyers, health professionals (OT , PT nurses specail ed etc.). The proff is in the pudding. The army is just a nonsense excuse..

30

 May 13, 2013 at 11:40 AM favish Says:

Reply to #26  
The Professor Says:

I'm afraid that you don't get it. The public policy in Israel has changed. Math and English will now be required if you want to accept public funds. Gee, it seems that such famous amoratzim, l'havdil, such as the Rambam, Ho-Rav Shamshon Rofoel Hirsch, and the Lubavitcher Rebbe had extensive knowledge of subject matter which you would probably call limudei Chol, and it didn't seem to take away from their g'dulah. I suspect that there is a pervasive fear within the Chareidi community that the mandate to teach mathematics is but the camel's nose in the tent. Whether it is or not remains to be seen; however, the ability to withstand such challenges to a the existing educational practice which might best be described as "minhag avosaynu b'yodaynu" will be much stronger if they don't accept funding from a government they don't trust.

you fellas always bandi about 2-3 who had limidai choil...what about de 1000's ...who didnt...just a note you all say 'the chareidim' as if every individual decides for themselves..every ben torah has his rebbe, rov, rosh hayeshivah that he goes . that is DASS torah which non of u have . Real dass torah doesnt come from just having a good , eisene kop..there is alot more to it ...torah mitoch keddushe yiras shomayim This is not a chassudes.that what torah shebal peh says(Talmud)which u guys lack teache.'Vhureicho byiraas hashem melamed shehalach kemoso...' The pope can know all shass..and just pasken from S'U, is ziltch and so it is with 'Rabbis'...yes they can pasken if on raddish borei pri hadamah ..hilchos shabbos etc but halacha thats nogayeh to keddushas am yisroel, hashkafah etc only holy gedolei yisroel are qualified no 'rabbi ' that is busy with girls ungeshtoped with shakesphears garbage,see pictures last article lipman.etc the' einei huada' are no dr, rabbiners (nothing wrong with that .but they are not on de madreigah of 'vehureicho beyiras hashem, melamed shehalacha kemoso bechol makomalso 'im hurav dome lmalech hashem tzevuous yevakshu torah mipihu veim lav...'

31

 May 13, 2013 at 01:10 PM jack-l Says:

Reply to #20  
JLemE Says:

Or those 1800 boys will be the sons of the wealthy and influential.

some will have connections. thats derech hateva. but some will be truly deseving and outstanding.

32

 May 13, 2013 at 01:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #25  
clear-thinker Says:

Wait let me read your comment again. Ok I am ready. You should do teshuva. How can you even think that the great of our people would do anything to promote the safety or standing of their children at the expense of others. This could never happen with frum Yidden. After all it has never happened in the history of the Jewish community, especially the Chareidi community.

U r incorrect. Not sure where u live but in the rest of the world, this happens all the time in every school cheder , yeshiva and shul..
The wealthy and connected always bend the rules when necessary. or start a new school or minyan. They do cuz they can........Sometimes works out well.
money talks b.s walks

33

 May 13, 2013 at 01:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #30  
favish Says:

you fellas always bandi about 2-3 who had limidai choil...what about de 1000's ...who didnt...just a note you all say 'the chareidim' as if every individual decides for themselves..every ben torah has his rebbe, rov, rosh hayeshivah that he goes . that is DASS torah which non of u have . Real dass torah doesnt come from just having a good , eisene kop..there is alot more to it ...torah mitoch keddushe yiras shomayim This is not a chassudes.that what torah shebal peh says(Talmud)which u guys lack teache.'Vhureicho byiraas hashem melamed shehalach kemoso...' The pope can know all shass..and just pasken from S'U, is ziltch and so it is with 'Rabbis'...yes they can pasken if on raddish borei pri hadamah ..hilchos shabbos etc but halacha thats nogayeh to keddushas am yisroel, hashkafah etc only holy gedolei yisroel are qualified no 'rabbi ' that is busy with girls ungeshtoped with shakesphears garbage,see pictures last article lipman.etc the' einei huada' are no dr, rabbiners (nothing wrong with that .but they are not on de madreigah of 'vehureicho beyiras hashem, melamed shehalacha kemoso bechol makomalso 'im hurav dome lmalech hashem tzevuous yevakshu torah mipihu veim lav...'

We speak about the 2 or 3 or 4 because they were "gedolei hador."
The problem with your thinking and this includes many others ,is every community rebbe (the other 997) are also gedolei hador. and make daas torah decisions and kol korehs on molestors , eyeglasses, and everything in between.
pls give the real gedolei hador the respect they deserve.

34

 May 13, 2013 at 01:53 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #27  
ChaimAharon Says:

Israel is not America. Doesn't everyone know this? What is good for American frum Jews is not necessarily good for Israel's. Lipman wants to help those chareidi youths who cannot sit and learn, to get a job. Good. Do it! But why force it on those boys who do want to continue learning Torah. If there are 7000 21-year olds each year, Lipman wants to FORCE close to 5200 of them to leave learning even though they want to! He should help those who want to work and equally (or more) help those who want to learn. He will have on his G-dly scorecard that he will be forcing 5000 boys every year to leave learning.
Another issue is: if Lipman is indeed Chareidi as he claims, who is his Rav TODAY who guides him? Does his Rav advise him to force boys to stop learning? Non-chareidi frum Jews also have guiding Rabbonim. Who is Lipman's??? If Lipman does not have a guiding Rav, then he isn't acting like a frum Jew.
And lastly, does Lipman know better than the chareidi gedolim what is good for chareidi society??? Does that not border on chutzpah?!

you have to force the isuue because some people thinks it just fine with thousands depedant on welfare and cant wait for their children to grow up and do the same so the number of proffesional welfare recepients will multiply exponentially.
The source for this funding aint growing. in fact due to the economy and budget cuts its shrinking. so understand NOT SUSTAINABLE (not yelling)
The other problem is everyone is scared to suggest change. The ideal role model of the group will be the fellow that cant recognize the letters of the alphabet let alone read or write . No one will willingly learn math or a trade. There goes the sidduch. The pressure to adhere without question is overwhelming. So much so, that the change in mind set will have to be imposed from the outside.

35

 May 13, 2013 at 04:43 PM zeesh-nj Says:

Reply to #31  
jack-l Says:

some will have connections. thats derech hateva. but some will be truly deseving and outstanding.

i wish i were as optimistic as you, but I agree w/ #20. everyone in lkwd is "the best guy"- how will they determine? by a written test. and what should be on the test? who will write it, and who will approve it? will it include halacha or a chidon tanach? who sets the values of what the test should focus on? chasidim and litvishe have different styles of learning. lipman had said in an article that he'd love to write the test, and said he wouldn't even expect to reach the exemption amount. this will also likely affect what yeshiva bochurim learn, b/c they'll have to cram for the test. parents/ bochurim who feel it's yehareg v'al yaavor (like the cantonists in russia) will do whatever it takes to get out of this. i'm not hopeful at all.
but i'm ok w/ him saying they're not giving as much $ to yeshivas that don't offer secular. he said they'd still give $, just not as much. it's not like the chareidim pay in any tax that they deserve the $ in the chilonim's eyes.
last thing- lipman is certainly sincere & is really trying to do good. it's a shame he didn't consult w/ gedolim but it's probably b/c he felt they would have said no so why should he ask. he's miguided here.

36

 May 13, 2013 at 04:50 PM zeesh-nj Says:

Reply to #27  
ChaimAharon Says:

Israel is not America. Doesn't everyone know this? What is good for American frum Jews is not necessarily good for Israel's. Lipman wants to help those chareidi youths who cannot sit and learn, to get a job. Good. Do it! But why force it on those boys who do want to continue learning Torah. If there are 7000 21-year olds each year, Lipman wants to FORCE close to 5200 of them to leave learning even though they want to! He should help those who want to work and equally (or more) help those who want to learn. He will have on his G-dly scorecard that he will be forcing 5000 boys every year to leave learning.
Another issue is: if Lipman is indeed Chareidi as he claims, who is his Rav TODAY who guides him? Does his Rav advise him to force boys to stop learning? Non-chareidi frum Jews also have guiding Rabbonim. Who is Lipman's??? If Lipman does not have a guiding Rav, then he isn't acting like a frum Jew.
And lastly, does Lipman know better than the chareidi gedolim what is good for chareidi society??? Does that not border on chutzpah?!

iwe certainly know the rav isn't the current rosh yeshiva of his often mentioned ner israel- they are so embarassed about this.
he said he has rabbonim who have encouraged him, but no mention of who they are or what camp.
note- for every post i make about lipman, i'm going to reiterate i think he's a sincere fellow, who learns, davens, and is a yirei H', just that he is misguided in this. i hope H' guides him to act b'derech haemes for the benefit of klal yisroel, "reb yisroel", and brings kiddush H' and His torah to the keneset and the state.

37

 May 13, 2013 at 04:51 PM zeesh-nj Says:

Reply to #32  
Anonymous Says:

U r incorrect. Not sure where u live but in the rest of the world, this happens all the time in every school cheder , yeshiva and shul..
The wealthy and connected always bend the rules when necessary. or start a new school or minyan. They do cuz they can........Sometimes works out well.
money talks b.s walks

i think you missed #25's sarcasm there...

38

Sign-in to post a comment

Click here to sign-in.

Scroll Up
Advertisements:

Sell your scrap gold and broken jewelry and earn hard cash sell gold today!