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Jerusalem - Rabbi Dov Lipman: Time To Tell The Truth

Published on: June 17, 2013 07:11 PM
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FILE - Dov Lipman, a member of Knesset, the Israeli parliament, works at his office in Jerusalem June 6, 2013.  ReutersJerusalem - Prior to my election to the 19th Knesset, I devoted time to writing books and columns.  Since taking office, my time is consumed fulfilling my responsibilities as a member of the Knesset, and I no longer have the additional time to write.

Many people ask why I have not responded to the many negative articles and columns written about me in American Jewish media outlets.  I must admit that I pay little attention to them.  Now, however, a red line of falsehood, inaccuracy and distortion has been crossed, and therefore I am compelled to respond.

Someone forwarded a link  to a column written about me by prolific charedi columnist Jonathan Rosenblum – a column replete with falsehoods.  I will begin my response by addressing the most glaring inaccuracy.

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Mr. Rosenblum wrote:  “In a widely circulated video last year, Lipman is seen leading a woman whose attire guaranteed to provoke an angry response past a shul in the ‘Yerushalmi’ neighborhood of Ramat Bet Shemesh.”

False.  Here are the facts: There was no shul, there was no woman dressed provocatively, and there was no Yerushalmi neighborhood.  Mr. Rosenblum is revisiting an incident which occurred nearly two years ago, and he has chosen to believe hearsay and to rewrite history. Here is what actually happened:

As the video shows, dozens of extremists were blocking the sidewalk near a religious girls’ school on a main thoroughfare in Beit Shemesh, in an attempt to intimidate young religious girls on their way home from school with chants of “prutzah,” “shiktzah” and more.

I was at the school in order to help guarantee the safety of the girls, and requested that the police clear the extremists off the sidewalk.  The police chose not to get involved.  I then asked a religious woman standing nearby to walk with me towards the extremists, in order to ensure that the girls could walk through safely.  It was important that a woman be there to hold the girls’ hands, or give them a hug as they walked through the threatening crowd of hostile men.

As we approached the mob, they began screaming at me, including blatant threats on my life.  This video shows  one of them saying that I need to be cut into pieces, and I have to admit, I was quite scared.  I pumped my arms for a few seconds in order to demonstrate my unwillingness to kowtow to their threats.

As can be seen in the video  of the incident we escorted the girls through safely, calmed them down, and helped them cope with their fear, thank G-d.

Prior to the election, I had met with current Education Minister Rabbi Shai Piron, and we discussed the need to be anchored spiritually despite the busy schedules we would experience as members of Knesset.  Minister Piron chose to begin every day by reading the “Igeres HaRamban.”  I decided to start every day with Mesilas Yesharim.  In Chapter 11, Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzatto writes: “‘The righteous hate a false thing (Proverbs 13:15).”  And it is in relation to this that we were warned ‘Stay far away from a false thing.’  (Shemot 23:7)  Note that we do not have ‘Guard yourself from falsehood’ but ‘Stay far away from a false thing.’  This is to awaken us to the greatness of the extent to which one must withdraw himself and flee from falsehood.  …Our Sages of blessed memory have said (Shabbat 55a):  ‘The seal of the Holy One Blessed be He is truth.’  Indeed if the truth is what the Holy One Blessed Be He selected as His seal, how abominable must its opposite be to Him… ‘Truth is one of the pillars upon which the word stands (Avot 1:18).’ Speaking falsehood, then is comparable to removing the foundation of the world.”

The false and inaccurate depiction that Rosenblum related above is not the only one in his column.  The following are his other false claims, followed by the accurate facts.

1) False claim: “His remark upon seeing an elderly street cleaner – “Why couldn’t a yeshiva student be doing that?” – has become widely quoted in the Israeli yeshiva world as an example of Yesh Atid’s contempt for Torah learning. (Apparently, it did not occur to him that the street cleaner earned his living that way.)”

Fact: Here is the precise quote which I wrote on Facebook that morning:  “I want to share a thought I had this morning as I jogged through the streets of Bet Shemesh. I saw 3 street cleaners working – all over the age of 70. Why aren’t yeshiva students, who are on their month long vacation during Nissan, volunteering to provide these older men with some vacation or to at least make their jobs a bit easier? Just a thought.”

I saw three elderly men working hard, and I thought about all the yeshiva boys – chareidi and dati – who were on vacation for three weeks at that point, and how nice it would be if they volunteered for a day or two to give these elderly men a paid vacation.  This would be a wonderful act of chessed and would sanctify God’s Name.

2) False claim: “By the time he placed his film clip on Yair Lapid’s TV show of a woman walking her whimpering daughter to school to protect her against the same “Yerushalmis,” the events described in Ramat Beit Shemesh were three months old and the crisis had largely been resolved.”

Fact: The extremists returned for weeks, and after a short break, they came back again in larger numbers and were even more violent than before.  This particular video which was taken two months into the school year, shows one of them spitting on a woman who was there to protect the girls.

There was also information that the extremists were planning on doing something far worse.  I must emphasize that I went to rabbis throughout the charedi community to ask for their assistance in stopping the madness, and not one of them helped.  Some were originally willing to sign a letter denouncing the assaults, but then refused to do so when they realized that rabbis who wore knitted kippot were also signing the letter.

I must also emphasize that some of the “whimpering” girls (Rosenblum’s word) were experiencing severe emotional, psychological and even theological damage during these months.  Therefore, as a last resort, a decision was made to turn to the press.

3) False claim: “The video, however, well-served the plans of Lipman’s future boss, Yair Lapid, to launch his political career at the head of an anti-chareidi party by tarring the entire chareidi community with the reprehensible behavior of some members of the “Yerushalmi” community.”

Fact: The general chareidi community was not tarred at all.  We specifically asked that these people be called “extremists,” and that is exactly what Yair Lapid did both times that he referenced chareidim in his newscast– “chareidim kitzonim” – which means “extremist chareidim.”  Click here  to watch the video to prove it.

4) False claim: “For one thing, the Yesh Atid platform explicitly endorses non-traditional marriage. To invite an Orthodox musmach who ran for the Knesset on that platform sends a confusing message about the RCA’s own stance on one of the crucial social issues of the time.“

Fact: I am involved in working out a compromise on this issue, which will preserve the Jewish definition of marriage – something which would not likely have happened if religious people were not involved.

5) False claim: “Lipman, on the other hand, has personally come out in favor of the most minimal standards for “kabbolas mitzvos” for conversion. It is enough, he argues, that the would-be convert take on a few basic mitzvos of identification, such as fasting on Yom Kippur and lighting candles on leil Shabbos.”

Fact: I have only discussed minimal standards for conversions of people from “zera yisrael” – those who have moved to Israel from Russia under the Law of Return, who have a Jewish father or grandfather.  This idea is endorsed by numerous major poskim over the generations, and Rav Ovadiah Yosef has written similar decisions as well.

6) False claim: “Lipman has been an outspoken supporter of the Women of the Wall, disingenuously brandishing in the Knesset an old photo of men and women silently praying at the Kosel, without a mechitzah between them, to prove that the Kosel lacks the status of a bais haknesses.”

Fact: Click here  to watch the video of the one time I discussed this topic, and I didn’t brandish any photos. 

Aside from the trivial issue of the picture, this is what I actually argued regarding the “Women of the Wall.”  We are making a huge mistake by making an issue out of women who want to wear a talit at the Kotel.  Small groups have been going once a month for Rosh Chodesh davening for more than 20 years, and it only became an issue when the charedi leadership decided to make it illegal and to have them arrested for it.  As long as they are not forcing anyone to transgress, and as long as they are not doing anything to “defile” the kotel (wearing a talit is permitted according to accepted poskim), we should not make this a source of conflict.

My Knesset speech included a reference to men and women davening together at the Kotel without a mechitza in the past, in response to being asked why I would let women wear a talit at the kotel if they would not be allowed to do so in my synagogue.  I did not agree with the comparison between the Kotel and my synagogue, and supported this by stating that under no circumstance would men and women ever pray together without a mechitza in an Orthodox synagogue.

7) False claim: “He cannot understand that the issue is less about math and English than it is over ceding curricular control of chareidi schools to secular authorities.”

Fact: Control will not be handed over to secular authorities according to our plan.  There is a chareidi advisor to the Minister of Education who will oversee the general studies in chareidi schools.

8) False claim: “And similarly, former Chief of Staff and current Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon grasps far better than Lipman why 5,000 chareidi 18-year-olds are not going into the IDF annually any time in the near future, and why the IDF has no interest in their doing so.”

Fact: According to our proposed law, the draft for chareidim begins at age 21 and includes national service options for those whom the IDF does not see fit for army service.  The law does NOT include 5,000 chareidi 18-year-old boys joining the army at any point in time.  There is a constant attempt to mislead people regarding what the law says, and this is causing serious damage.

9) False claim:  “Nor does he show any appreciation for the miraculous achievements of the Israel Torah community in rebuilding a vibrant world from the ashes.”

Fact: I regularly refer to this phenomenon in my speeches, and also speak about the brilliance and foresight of making this happen.

10) False claim: “…boasts that he will write the exams for illuim seeking army exemptions and no more than 400 will pass. That boast reflects how little time he has spent inside Israeli yeshivos.”

Fact: I was being interviewed and I explained my vision for a small group of elite scholars of the highest level, including the fact that they would know all of shas at a young age – similar to the stories we hear about our Torah giants when they were children.  This was simply to emphasize how difficult the tests should be to determine who should be exempt from any form of service outside of Torah study.

11) False claim:  “Lipman shows no recognition of the very great changes that are taking place in the chareidi community. One important initiative in chareidi training is the Shachar Kachol program, primarily for married men within the IDF. Under that program, the IDF provides training in computer programming and quality control, as well as other technical fields, and those trained fill some of the crucial manpower needs of the IDF.”

Fact: I have written columns which talk about programs like Shachar Kachol, and I am hard at work building similar programs for younger ages since Shachar Kachol starts at age 26.  Here is a precise quote from a column which I actually wrote to respond to words written by Mr. Rosenblum:  “Is the Torah study of charedi IDF soldiers in Nahal Haredi and the Shahar program, where they have actual Torah classes on their bases, not providing that protection?”

12) False claim: “They appear driven by a desire to punish the chareidi community, not just by the concern with labor force participation or the manpower needs of the army.”

Fact: This is simply propaganda, and not based on facts.  The following is a quote from a recent speech which Minister Lapid gave in the Knesset: “Today’s step enables all of us to stop hiding and to begin thinking big.  This law frees 28,000 charedim to join the workforce immediately.  We will help them enter the workforce and find jobs in hi-tech, factories, financial firms, and real estate.  We will do everything in our power so that in a few years we will have charedi doctors, young charedim who establish start-up companies, charedi contractors, and charedi engineers.  And above all, we will have charedi brothers.  This law is not the beginning of a war between us, but the beginning of our making peace with one another.  It will close a wound which has been in the heart of Israeli society for years, and will enable us to live together without the barriers of suspicions and baseless hatred.” 

13) False claim: “The decision to criminalize refusal to serve in the IDF – something not called for in the coalition guidelines – achieves nothing in practical terms. Defense Minister Ya’alon has made clear that the IDF cannot afford to absorb large numbers of chareidim overnight. But it does turn Torah learning into outlaw activity.”

Fact: Legal advisors said that a criminal element had to appear in the law in order for it to pass the test of the Supreme Court, because otherwise it is not equality since there is jail time for religious Zionist and secular boys who don’t serve.

There is another inaccuracy here.  The entire platform was built with input from the IDF, which is why the draft does not start until 2017.  It is not in any way “overnight.”

14) False claim: “…but they were fully predictable consequences of the hubris-driven agenda of Dov Lipman and friends.

Fact: The only hubris I see is assuming that a human being can understand what is truly driving another person.  Rosenblum has never taken the time to talk to me before judging my motives.

Fifteen falsehoods.  Apparently, truth dictates that the changes we are working on together with many in the chareidi community are going to help young chareidi boys remain fervently religious and grow as Torah scholars, while at the same time sustaining their families with dignity.

I must make one additional point.  Mr. Rosenblum refers to me as “this former basketball coach,” without mention of my rabbinic ordination, career in education, and published Torah works.  I have been blessed with the opportunity to inspire many young people as a rebbi, an author, and as a basketball coach, and I wear all of those labels with pride.

Jonathan Rosenblum represents the Torah world, and wrote this particular piece in the Yated Neeman, a newspaper which is governed by the Torah giants of our time. Thus, I hope Rosenblum has the courage to correct these falsehoods and apologize.  Whether he does or not will say a lot about him, but I am satisfied that all readers now have been presented with the facts.  I also hope that readers understand that while I would never initiate such harsh discourse, I had to address this misleading column in order to correct the inaccuracies regarding the work I have done in the past, and the work I will continue to do, with G-d’s help, as part of the Yesh Atid party in the Knesset.

The above was first published at Times Of Israel, reprinted with permission.

MK Rabbi Dov Lipman has semicha from Ner Israel Rabbinical College and a masters in education from Johns Hopkins University. He has held numerous chinuch positions in the USA and Israel and is the author of three books. Rabbi Lipman was elected to the 19th Knesset as a member of the Yesh Atid party.



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Read Comments (59)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Jun 17, 2013 at 07:43 PM Crazykanoiy Says:

One could just as well argue the accuracy "facts" as Litzman presents them. The main point of Rosenblum's article is that Lipman and Yesh Atid are harming efforts to integrate Chareidim into the Army and workforce. On this point Rosenblum is undoubtedly correct. Yesh Atid and Lipmcutting have pushed an agenda that includes massive cuts to Kollel stipends, severely limiting draft deferments, cutting aid to Yeshivas, promoting toevah marriage, supporting women on the board to elect daynim, supporting the women of the wall and other areas that attack the religious status quo of the past 65 years. This method only creates the impression (perhaps correctly) that the government is out to secularize the Chareidim and unleashes the reactionary forces in the Chareidi world. If Lipman was interested in helping the Chareidim he should head the advice of Rosenblum and change course.

2

 Jun 17, 2013 at 07:50 PM Elliot Pasik Says:

This is an excellent, detailed response. Jonathan Rosenblum should apologize.

3

 Jun 17, 2013 at 07:55 PM Emes Says:

The real truth is that Yesh Atid is promoting the legalization of gay marriage in Israel, is cutting aid to the poor and needy, and openly supporting the most radical feminist movements in the country. Dov Lipman is acting as Yair Lapids kosher symbol. It is wrong for the RCA to invite him to keynote their conference.

4

 Jun 17, 2013 at 07:58 PM berelw Says:

rabbi dov i applaud for your guts ...your a person of reason and does what is right....to all the nay sayer thats just a simmon that your are right...(btw i want to share that i used to be a avid reader of the ami magazine,,,,i ready r. frankfuters article against you i almost vomited it was with such bad taste ....he calls himself a rabbi but dov lapid who has smicha he didnt call you a rabbi...i dont touch the ami magazine anymore....my friends call it the anti semitic magazine together with mispacha,,,,its full of bashing other people that dont agree or look like them....just because frankfurther's rebbe asked him to voice his opions we need to read them???

5

 Jun 17, 2013 at 08:09 PM DTeitelbaum Says:

False claim: "Jonathan Rosenblum represents the Torah world, and wrote this particular piece in the Yated Neeman, a newspaper which is governed by the Torah giants of our time."
Fact: The Yated like most Chareidi papers are controlled by people that have zero respect for Daas Torah or the Gedolim. They use the names of Gedolim to promote their own personal agendas. This has been proven over and over again.

6

 Jun 17, 2013 at 08:20 PM Unbelievable Says:

In the video you are clearly the provocateur.
Its very telling on the rest of your vile agenda of hate and your lies.

7

 Jun 17, 2013 at 08:22 PM iymbb1 Says:

Dear Rabbi Lipman,
I also heard a rumor that you are a MK in Yair Lapids party which is by far a much worse accusation than anything you mentioned. Is that true or is also false?

8

 Jun 17, 2013 at 08:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Can someone please comment on this. Women have been coming for 20 years on rosh chodesh , davening with a talis and tefilen at the kosel. Is this true?

9

 Jun 17, 2013 at 08:48 PM Boruch N. Hoffinger Says:

Dear Dov Lipman and Vosizneias, BS"D
Remind me to never read anything by Jonathan Rosenblum.
Sick and evil...don't we have enough problems? We're just playing into the hands of our enemies.
When we fight with each other, HaShem sends the Moslems, Arabs, etc. against us . . . when will the problematic Jews get some brains, and hearts?
Pack of fools.
'Better you all had never been born.'
This is a Torah saying.

10

 Jun 17, 2013 at 08:53 PM Donl12345 Says:

Anither proof that Rosenblum is a Charaedi apologist hack.

11

 Jun 17, 2013 at 08:54 PM Anonymous Says:

I'm an American chareidi and I like Rosenblum as a writer, but I know a demolition when I see one.
Good job, Rabbi Lipman

12

 Jun 17, 2013 at 08:57 PM FrumbutAmused Says:

I feel like posting here is like punching a brick wall but I have to say this. The amount of Frum people that think Dov Lipman is the enemy is a testament to how
absolutely off the rails our community has gotten. The lack of critical thinking, absolute fanaticism and general stupidity of our community is terrifying.

It's all pretty hopeless.

13

 Jun 17, 2013 at 09:08 PM si girl Says:

Rabbi Lipman is a great fellow. If he is successful in implementing his program it would be wonderful. He is frum and very well educated man who devoted his life to the Jewish people and to the improvements that are necessary in economical psychological and legal structure of Israel. He has a lot of respect for all mankind without compromising on fundamental Jewish principals. Good luck to him

14

 Jun 17, 2013 at 09:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Very nice article.....

15

 Jun 17, 2013 at 09:37 PM Anonymous Says:

I don't care who you are when all the gedolim are against you and your own Rosh hate shiva says he's 'misguided' you have to ask yourself am I really doing the right thing?? Is it possible I don't mean 'lishma' although I say I do??

16

 Jun 17, 2013 at 09:38 PM soothsayer Says:

Fact.: There will be 123 postings.
Cant we all just get along?
Each to his own.
Free slurpees on 7-11.
Why does a round pizza come in a square box?

17

 Jun 17, 2013 at 09:41 PM Joe plonee Says:

Thanks for the Rabbi Yonason Rosenblum link!

18

 Jun 17, 2013 at 09:44 PM DrUriBakay Says:

Wow Wow Wow Wow Wow
absolutely stunning. An apology is in order, but probably not forthcoming. Rabbi Lipman you are a giant among men, The Rambam would love you, please keep up the good work you are doing. Hashem knows you are right, remember this is the Olam Hafuch, Elyonim Lmatah Tachtonim Lmalaa

19

 Jun 17, 2013 at 09:48 PM Torahjew Says:

all of what he says might be true but a Torah jew follows da'at Torah and no one would allow a rabbinic Jew to sit in the hater lapid's party that promotes liberal american values I have not heard one Jewish vlue from Mr. Lipman or his hater friend lapid But I do hear gay marriege, not have to accept mitzvot to convert, public transport on Shabbat, allow those woman wacks at the wall, etc... Please enlighten me to a Jewish value lipman and lapid promote

20

 Jun 17, 2013 at 09:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
FrumbutAmused Says:

I feel like posting here is like punching a brick wall but I have to say this. The amount of Frum people that think Dov Lipman is the enemy is a testament to how
absolutely off the rails our community has gotten. The lack of critical thinking, absolute fanaticism and general stupidity of our community is terrifying.

It's all pretty hopeless.

Many of us couldn't agree more.

21

 Jun 17, 2013 at 09:50 PM c Says:

Reply to #12  
FrumbutAmused Says:

I feel like posting here is like punching a brick wall but I have to say this. The amount of Frum people that think Dov Lipman is the enemy is a testament to how
absolutely off the rails our community has gotten. The lack of critical thinking, absolute fanaticism and general stupidity of our community is terrifying.

It's all pretty hopeless.

"Gadol" = absolute right to make a mockery of Torah with impunity.

22

 Jun 17, 2013 at 10:03 PM UriLevi Says:

The election of Rabbi Lipman as well as the issue of Chareidi enlistment in the army & the subsequent reaction from the Extremist/Moderate Chareidi Frum & the Modern Orthodox/Centrist Frum reminds me of the verdict of O.J Simpson from the African American community and American Whites. We may share our holy Torah in common but on certain levels we are living in parallel universes.

23

 Jun 17, 2013 at 10:14 PM Torahjew Says:

Reply to #18  
DrUriBakay Says:

Wow Wow Wow Wow Wow
absolutely stunning. An apology is in order, but probably not forthcoming. Rabbi Lipman you are a giant among men, The Rambam would love you, please keep up the good work you are doing. Hashem knows you are right, remember this is the Olam Hafuch, Elyonim Lmatah Tachtonim Lmalaa

Which Rambam have u ever learned to say such a thing dont be mevazer a great gadol to say he would agree with mr lipman's agenda What the Rambam did to be moser nefesh for torah this Ayn Atid party looks to destroy and they have a hechsher on thier destruction bec of mr. Lipman deceiving his yeshiva into allowing him to attain smicha.

24

 Jun 17, 2013 at 10:20 PM honestbroker Says:

I'd like to see if Rosenblum has the courage and decency to respond , and if necessary , apologize

25

 Jun 17, 2013 at 10:20 PM MarkTwain2 Says:

Wow, I'm uniquely qualified to comment here. I learned in yeshiva with both Lipman and with Rosenblum (different yeshivas) and know them both well. Let me just put forth that they are both gentlemen, respectful and good people. It's too bad this has evolved. It's two people with two different agendas and each one truly believing he is leshaim shamayim. I do hope they get a chance to meet in person and talk through it. Our enemy is Balak and Bilam not from within.

26

 Jun 17, 2013 at 10:25 PM MarkTwain2 Says:

Reply to #15  
Anonymous Says:

I don't care who you are when all the gedolim are against you and your own Rosh hate shiva says he's 'misguided' you have to ask yourself am I really doing the right thing?? Is it possible I don't mean 'lishma' although I say I do??

To #15: a true Freudian slip when you say:own Rosh hate shiva. Ner Israel doesn't offer a warm caring Rosh who looks after bochrim. It's a figure head position and really meaningless if the Rosh disagrees with the views of an adult 41 yr old responsible alumni since the Rosh is completely disconnected from that and every alumnus when they were actually students there 20 yrs ago ( your terminology was stronger- you called it hate).

27

 Jun 17, 2013 at 10:47 PM charliehall Says:

I don't know which is worse, the motzi shem ra that Rosemblum put in his article, or the allegedly frum people who are defending it.

28

 Jun 17, 2013 at 10:56 PM Emes- Says:

Right or Wrong. Why can't the world understand that the only way to make changes in the status quo of the Charadie community is not to dictate but work with the Gedolim and not against them. Remember Sara Shneir saw a need and presented it to The Chofetz Cchaim and the Gerrer Rebbe. Only after she received their blessings was she able to accomplish.

29

 Jun 17, 2013 at 10:59 PM Anon Ibid Opcit Says:

Sorry Mr. Lipman. The facts aren't allowed to get in the way of a good smearing and slander. Truth is what the "gedolim" say it is, not what actually happened.

30

 Jun 17, 2013 at 11:03 PM shlomoradomska Says:

Well said Reb Dov. The truth does hurt. For 65 years the Israeli people (frum and not frum) have supported Torah and allowed the rebuilding of Torah in Israel. I have not seen one statement of hakaras hatov for that. Just take, take, take!
You have correctly identified the problems in Israel Charedi society. The poverty is tragic. The "army" of "collectors" who. descent on every N. America community soliciting for daily needs is overwhelming. It's all a self-inflicted wound. Let's hope the solutions can be implemented to begin to address these problems. Good luck Reb Dov!

31

 Jun 17, 2013 at 11:03 PM kweanbea Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

Can someone please comment on this. Women have been coming for 20 years on rosh chodesh , davening with a talis and tefilen at the kosel. Is this true?

No, they've been coming to the kotel for almost 25 years.

32

 Jun 17, 2013 at 11:04 PM Crazy Kanoiy Says:

Dov Lipman's explanation of his street cleaner remark is hardly convincing. Would he say the same thing to a lawyer or computer tech from Tel Aviv who is enjoying his time off and vacation? The line is derogertory no matter how you cut it. It does seem to indicate a lack of proper respect for Yeshiva students.

33

 Jun 17, 2013 at 11:41 PM DrUriBakay Says:

Rambam Hilchos Talmud Torah Perek 3 Halacha 10

34

 Jun 18, 2013 at 01:53 AM Anonymous Says:

Lipman is a politician, and politicians never tell the truth. Why would anyone assume that Lipman is not lying here? He carefully picks and chooses what issues to attack Rosenblum. I see Lipman as a miscreant and enemy of Hashem that points to his mouth and says "read my lips", when he knows he's deceiving the public.

35

 Jun 18, 2013 at 05:43 AM MaxaMillion Says:

Reply to #12  
FrumbutAmused Says:

I feel like posting here is like punching a brick wall but I have to say this. The amount of Frum people that think Dov Lipman is the enemy is a testament to how
absolutely off the rails our community has gotten. The lack of critical thinking, absolute fanaticism and general stupidity of our community is terrifying.

It's all pretty hopeless.

You said it well, my friend. The question is when will the rational among us take back the leadership from the mindless kanoyim? I believe it starts in the schools.

36

 Jun 18, 2013 at 06:22 AM Anonymous Says:

Rabbi Lipman makes many convincing points. The only way that a response will be taken seriously, is if Rosenblum or those defending him admit where they are wrong. I was in Ner Yisroel with Rabbi Lipman. I would say that the typical alumnus is more in agreement with him than with the Rosh Yeshiva.

37

 Jun 18, 2013 at 08:00 AM Realistic Says:

Did he consider himself to do the street cleaning, or it's only applicable to Yeshiva boys since in his eyes the're a peace of rubbish.

all arguments put aside, he is a member of Yesh Atid, and that tells it all.

38

 Jun 18, 2013 at 08:20 AM Barsechel Says:

Reply to #15  
Anonymous Says:

I don't care who you are when all the gedolim are against you and your own Rosh hate shiva says he's 'misguided' you have to ask yourself am I really doing the right thing?? Is it possible I don't mean 'lishma' although I say I do??

From all the andwers this is the most compelling - when ALL gedolim including YOUR own Rosh are against you and say that you are misguided what do YOU think? They are wrong and you are right?
And who agrees with you? Lapid and Piron?
Think about this

40

 Jun 18, 2013 at 02:15 AM popa- Says:

blah blah blah. Let's say everything is a lie. Let's say you are correct.

If you are so correct, how about you try convincing some rabbonim of that? How about you try convincing Rav Feldman about that? You think you can't? Then you should rethink yourself.

41

 Jun 18, 2013 at 03:05 AM cdg528 Says:

claim number 1) see 32
claim number 2) the fact that you call them extremists doesn't help because the average israeli sees black and says they are all like that therefore you got your votes
because of all the bad press.against the religious.
claim number 3) dito
claim 6) rabbi gorin brought a torah to the kotel proclaiming it as bet knesset since
the british did not allow official minyanim so to the photo mentioned was at a time a)
a mechitza was not permitted by the british. b)the way women dressed then and now
is no comparison.

42

 Jun 18, 2013 at 06:50 AM oiber-chacham Says:

Rabbi Dov Lippman,a voice of sanity in the chareidi world,that has in the last 60 years turned itself into an insane asylum,it has taken our beautiful judaism and turned it into another imitation of extreme fundamentalist christianity or Wabahism .
It has spawned a generation of ignorant savages,with no Torah no Derech Eretz,not working,not sharing the burden in defending their own families and country,hating Medinas Yisroel or any other Jew who is not a memmber of their paticular gang.
We have thousands of these empty suits going out of their mind with boredom,filling their empty lives,with roaming the streets and checking out the women s wardrobes
if their skirts are long enough or not too tight, or if the stockings are not thick enough,and when finding a victim she get's spit on or worse gets bleach thrown into her face.
We should all hope and pray for rabbi Lippman's success,he is the best thing that could have ever happened to the chareidi community

43

 Jun 18, 2013 at 07:41 AM Anonymous Says:

I would read this article, but I realize that Dov Lipman is not working as an existentially blessed Rabbi since his agenda is to improve his own self promotion and I do not want to be at the expense of his lazy pen. I will not be bothered today by a worry campaign when his own words just do not seem to penetrate the dignity of mankinds objective. And yes, I really do wish him the best of wishes. Sorry Dov. Keep up the good work though!

44

 Jun 18, 2013 at 08:07 AM OYVY2 Says:

Reply to #12  
FrumbutAmused Says:

I feel like posting here is like punching a brick wall but I have to say this. The amount of Frum people that think Dov Lipman is the enemy is a testament to how
absolutely off the rails our community has gotten. The lack of critical thinking, absolute fanaticism and general stupidity of our community is terrifying.

It's all pretty hopeless.

yes I feel hopeless as well . It's who can yell the loudest and the longest and no one is thinking for themselves anymore. and it is so true about the Yated. Feh.

45

 Jun 18, 2013 at 08:32 AM shlomoradomska Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

Rabbi Lipman makes many convincing points. The only way that a response will be taken seriously, is if Rosenblum or those defending him admit where they are wrong. I was in Ner Yisroel with Rabbi Lipman. I would say that the typical alumnus is more in agreement with him than with the Rosh Yeshiva.

As another Ner Israel alumnus I agree with your view. Rabbi Lipman is closer to the historic Ner Israel hadracha and philosophy then the current Rosh Hayeshiva. The only question is can that hadracha be transplanted to Israel? That's the challenge.

46

 Jun 18, 2013 at 08:42 AM Ari Says:

Bottom line is he is a politician, who is blinded by the shochad of his own pride.
If he feels strongly about his positions, let him go make the case to thr gedolai hador, who have all unequivically condemned him. Thats the bottom line.
Our gedolim who have the siyata dishmaya to point us in the derech Hashem have said he is traif. And chazer traif, because like the chazer, he holds up his split hooves and says "look how kosher I am"...

47

 Jun 18, 2013 at 09:06 AM davidj Says:

Rabbi Dov Lipman is trying to bring much needed change to Charedi communities. He tried to work with the Charedi leadership; in general they would have none of it.

Sadly, many Charedi communities are spiraling into a pit of poverty and extremism. It it is not a secret. The amount of begging and gemach borrowing on the is very high.

48

 Jun 18, 2013 at 09:18 AM Avi Says:

Reply to #37  
Realistic Says:

Did he consider himself to do the street cleaning, or it's only applicable to Yeshiva boys since in his eyes the're a peace of rubbish.

all arguments put aside, he is a member of Yesh Atid, and that tells it all.

Actually, Rabbi Lipman has volunteered as a street cleaner in the past. Unlike you Charedim who ignore Chazal's dictum of Lilmod Al Minas La'asos, Rabbi Lipman puts his sweat first and his words second.

49

 Jun 18, 2013 at 09:40 AM mewhoze Says:

so sad how we attack our own just because there are different views.
i applaud the latinos and the african americans because they stick together no matter what.
sadly we yidden dont do this and should take a lesson from them in their achdus

50

 Jun 18, 2013 at 09:44 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #42  
oiber-chacham Says:

Rabbi Dov Lippman,a voice of sanity in the chareidi world,that has in the last 60 years turned itself into an insane asylum,it has taken our beautiful judaism and turned it into another imitation of extreme fundamentalist christianity or Wabahism .
It has spawned a generation of ignorant savages,with no Torah no Derech Eretz,not working,not sharing the burden in defending their own families and country,hating Medinas Yisroel or any other Jew who is not a memmber of their paticular gang.
We have thousands of these empty suits going out of their mind with boredom,filling their empty lives,with roaming the streets and checking out the women s wardrobes
if their skirts are long enough or not too tight, or if the stockings are not thick enough,and when finding a victim she get's spit on or worse gets bleach thrown into her face.
We should all hope and pray for rabbi Lippman's success,he is the best thing that could have ever happened to the chareidi community

I whole-heartedly agree with you. The chareidim have turned Judaism into something it was never meant to be. Didn't all the great Rabbis of the Gemorrah have jobs? Weren't they as well learned as the modern-day chareidim?
Advice to chareidim:
1. You live in a country reborn after 2,000 years of torture. Have some hakoras atov to those that defend the medina. Would it hurt for you to display the Israeli flag? What makes it such an object of hatred? Is it a form of worshiping Baal? Of course not, it's the chareidim hatred of it, that is similar to worshiping Baal
2. You don't think that you should help the medinah in certain ways, such as joining the army or, at least, doing work to help out? Many of you are in yeshivas to avoid the draft, face it. Ah shandah!
3. Learning is wonderful, but sometimes we must put it aside, and join the rest of Israel for the better good.
4. Maybe the top 1% of real scholars we can make an exception for, but for the rest?

I could go on, but my head hurts, banging against a wall.

51

 Jun 18, 2013 at 10:17 AM BaruchGershom Says:

I've known Rabbi Lipman for more than 10 years. I'm a Facebook follower from well before his election, so I recognized the mistakes in Jonathan Rosenblum's columns (not just this one, but some in Mishpacha) and have written to complain. I have met Mr. Rosenblum and found him to be nice and collegial. I am sure that if he met Rabbi Lipman, or better, spent an hour learning with him, he would hesitate to repeat slander that has been used by others in Mishpacaha and Yatid and would (finally) get the story straight. His readers deserve to hear the truth.

52

 Jun 18, 2013 at 10:22 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #45  
shlomoradomska Says:

As another Ner Israel alumnus I agree with your view. Rabbi Lipman is closer to the historic Ner Israel hadracha and philosophy then the current Rosh Hayeshiva. The only question is can that hadracha be transplanted to Israel? That's the challenge.

Today one in four 1st graders in Israel are enrolled in charedi schools. In two generations, charedim will likely have a political majority and compose a large plurality of the Israeli population. What then? Will American-educated charedim be enough to maintain Israel's economy and infrastructure, while Israeli-educated charedim learn and daven because that's all they know how to do? And who will defend Israel? Ner Israel's hadracha has to be transplanted to Israel or Israel has no future. We can pray that Moshiach will come soon, but we must prepare in the event he tarries.

53

 Jun 18, 2013 at 10:37 AM BaruchGershom Says:

Reply to #19  
Torahjew Says:

all of what he says might be true but a Torah jew follows da'at Torah and no one would allow a rabbinic Jew to sit in the hater lapid's party that promotes liberal american values I have not heard one Jewish vlue from Mr. Lipman or his hater friend lapid But I do hear gay marriege, not have to accept mitzvot to convert, public transport on Shabbat, allow those woman wacks at the wall, etc... Please enlighten me to a Jewish value lipman and lapid promote

Where is there da'at Torah today? They condemn their political enemies by calling them "evil" and incite others to physically attack them; they condone abusive behavior by extremists no matter how bad it makes Torah Jews look to the world -- and do so because they can't bring themselves to sign a petition with someone who wears a knitted kipah? Do we need another tragedy like the yeshiva massacre in 2008 (Rav Stav's and Rabbi Piron's yeshiva btw) to bring gedolim together to recognize that we are all frum Jews with ultimately the same agenda? None of this insanity is new. How long ago did we see rabbanim withdraw their endorsement of Rav Slifkin's books because a few extremists were offended by the subject matter? How long ago were gedolim duped to "ban" a concert based on the misrepresentations of askanim? And if we go back to 1944, there were Hungarian gedolim who convinced their congregants that they would be safe in Hungary, just before some of the gedolim themselves were whisked out to safety. Da'at Torah is a wonderful thing, but not every learned rabbi is equipped with the skill, knowledge, and sensitivity to screen out politics and conflicts of interest.

54

 Jun 18, 2013 at 10:43 AM MarkTwain2 Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

Rabbi Lipman makes many convincing points. The only way that a response will be taken seriously, is if Rosenblum or those defending him admit where they are wrong. I was in Ner Yisroel with Rabbi Lipman. I would say that the typical alumnus is more in agreement with him than with the Rosh Yeshiva.

I'm an alumnus same time as Dov and I completely agree with your assessment. Dov is brave to use his name and you're smart to post annonomously.

55

 Jun 18, 2013 at 12:41 PM Out of Towner Says:

Why anyone, especially someone who can't stop screaming how much of a chareidi he is, would want to be Yair Lapid's fig leaf is absolutely incomprehensible! I do not envy someone who feels he can defy every single Gadol in E"Y and beyond so defiantly. I understand that Dov Lipman considers this a Milchemes Mitzva - but it is almost laughable how he thinks he is a bigger Daas Torah than anyone else. All we ask is a drop of humility and recognizing your place.

56

 Jun 18, 2013 at 01:02 PM shlomoradomska Says:

Reply to #52  
Anonymous Says:

Today one in four 1st graders in Israel are enrolled in charedi schools. In two generations, charedim will likely have a political majority and compose a large plurality of the Israeli population. What then? Will American-educated charedim be enough to maintain Israel's economy and infrastructure, while Israeli-educated charedim learn and daven because that's all they know how to do? And who will defend Israel? Ner Israel's hadracha has to be transplanted to Israel or Israel has no future. We can pray that Moshiach will come soon, but we must prepare in the event he tarries.

I agree. But why are the Charedi leaders blind to these facts? Why have they ignored the growing poverty all these years? It amazes me.

57

 Jun 18, 2013 at 01:14 PM UriLevi Says:

Reply to #46  
Ari Says:

Bottom line is he is a politician, who is blinded by the shochad of his own pride.
If he feels strongly about his positions, let him go make the case to thr gedolai hador, who have all unequivically condemned him. Thats the bottom line.
Our gedolim who have the siyata dishmaya to point us in the derech Hashem have said he is traif. And chazer traif, because like the chazer, he holds up his split hooves and says "look how kosher I am"...

Emunas Chachamim is light tears away ( the pun is necessary as this needless hatred between Jews based on whose Rav is a "bigger" is creating so many tears in heaven) from the Gadol idolizing so prevalent in celebrity worshiping 21st Cent. America. And - it spans all political & religious spectrums.including Modern Orthodox and Daati Leumi( they're just not as loud & emotional about it,) Do you think Rabbi Moshe Feinstein ZT'L would have called another self identified Orthodox Rabbi 'evil'? Do you think Rav Shmulevitz zt'l would have ever called the Israel government 'evil'?
Do you think - the Tzaddik of Yeushalayim _ Reb Areyeh Levine zt'l would have distanced himself from other Shomer Shabbos Yidden just because they supported Rav Kook zt'l? We know who the true G'dolim were - and unfortunately there are very few today.

58

 Jun 18, 2013 at 03:50 PM Realistic Says:

Reply to #48  
Avi Says:

Actually, Rabbi Lipman has volunteered as a street cleaner in the past. Unlike you Charedim who ignore Chazal's dictum of Lilmod Al Minas La'asos, Rabbi Lipman puts his sweat first and his words second.

Did he do some street cleaning for himself, or some political stump.

59

 Jun 18, 2013 at 08:43 PM Torahjew Says:

Reply to #53  
BaruchGershom Says:

Where is there da'at Torah today? They condemn their political enemies by calling them "evil" and incite others to physically attack them; they condone abusive behavior by extremists no matter how bad it makes Torah Jews look to the world -- and do so because they can't bring themselves to sign a petition with someone who wears a knitted kipah? Do we need another tragedy like the yeshiva massacre in 2008 (Rav Stav's and Rabbi Piron's yeshiva btw) to bring gedolim together to recognize that we are all frum Jews with ultimately the same agenda? None of this insanity is new. How long ago did we see rabbanim withdraw their endorsement of Rav Slifkin's books because a few extremists were offended by the subject matter? How long ago were gedolim duped to "ban" a concert based on the misrepresentations of askanim? And if we go back to 1944, there were Hungarian gedolim who convinced their congregants that they would be safe in Hungary, just before some of the gedolim themselves were whisked out to safety. Da'at Torah is a wonderful thing, but not every learned rabbi is equipped with the skill, knowledge, and sensitivity to screen out politics and conflicts of interest.

I was following your responce but you lost me when you equate mr Piron as a rabbi with da'at Torah he is a hater of the Torah he is an erev rav and a laughing fool. Withouy proper da'at Torah we are not a special chosen nation whether you follow Reb Moshe Rav Elyashiv Rav Goren Rav Kook follow someone with a mesorah Dont make up your own religion as mr lipman, Piron and avi weiss

60

 Jun 19, 2013 at 06:14 AM bluke Says:

Reply to #1  
Crazykanoiy Says:

One could just as well argue the accuracy "facts" as Litzman presents them. The main point of Rosenblum's article is that Lipman and Yesh Atid are harming efforts to integrate Chareidim into the Army and workforce. On this point Rosenblum is undoubtedly correct. Yesh Atid and Lipmcutting have pushed an agenda that includes massive cuts to Kollel stipends, severely limiting draft deferments, cutting aid to Yeshivas, promoting toevah marriage, supporting women on the board to elect daynim, supporting the women of the wall and other areas that attack the religious status quo of the past 65 years. This method only creates the impression (perhaps correctly) that the government is out to secularize the Chareidim and unleashes the reactionary forces in the Chareidi world. If Lipman was interested in helping the Chareidim he should head the advice of Rosenblum and change course.

You can't argue with many of R' Lipman's facts. It is a fact that there was no shul there. It is a fact that it is not a Yerushalmi neighborhood. Anyone who took the time to visit the area knows that. That alone is enough to require an apology from Rosenblum.

61

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