Montreal, Canada – At a time when our increasingly multicultural country is having to pick its way through a minefield of conflicting secular and religious rights, the Supreme Court took a very wrong step last month.
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In a 7-2 decision Dec. 13, the high court ruled that courts have both the power and the obligation to adjudicate religious disputes.
This melding of religious and civil law is not the direction in which Canada should be headed, however objectionable the behaviour of a litigant. The decision [reported here at VIN News]- which awarded damages to a Jewish woman whose estranged husband refused for 15 years to grant her a get, a religious divorce – could provide the basis for all manner of religious-based cases.
Where Canadian and Quebec family law uphold the equality of spouses, many religions do not. In this case, a religious divorce was Marcovitz’s to grant. Jewish religious law provides no sanction for his failure to abide by his promise. But that, unfortunately for Bruker, should not be up to secular courts to remedy.
Women who feel their religion discriminates against them should be seeking redress from religious authorities. Nothing is to be gained – and much lost – by trying to turn the secular court system into a weapon against religious dogma. As soon as the Supreme Court has a chance to revisit this issue, it should. [Canadian gazette editorial]
12:06
Though I thoroughly understand what you are saying, and fee deeply for those women who are victims of their husband’s rishus, the courts are not making it better.
They are making it worse.
As Mr. 1:25 said, ANY GET THAT IS GIVEN WHEN THE HUSBAND FEELS COMPELLED OR PRESSURED BY ANY OUTSIDE FORCE TO GIVE THIS GET, IS TOTALLY INVALID and WORTHLESS.
Only a Beis Din can at times compel. Any other pressure just makes both think they now have a get, while all they have is worthless paper.
This would lead to mamzerim when the woman re-marries, and every time she has relations she is committing a super duper avaira.
Certainly the hassles associated with dealing or compromising with the rasha of a husband to have him give a get by his own free choice, are less horrible than a worthless get.
In fact, there are some who now travel to other jurisdictions for a divorce and get to avoid doing so in any location which has any government interference. They are afraid that even when they both want the get and are cooperative, the very fact that their state/province has interferred in the past, or written laws to “protect the woman from a man who refuses to give a get” or has laws that allow a get to be stipulated in the divorce decress …. all gittin in these jurisdiction may have shailos on them.
VERY important, even when both parties agree to everything, to NEVER put a “GET CLAUSE” in the divorce papers, either in the decree or as any addendum or codicil or attachment.
As a woman, if you are not sure your husband will give you a get, don’t be so quick to leave. Make peace with him. Try to make the marriage work.
If it absolutely can’t work, try with kindness to let him see this, and make the terms of the relationship after divorce such that you are not tearing him to pieces.
HUH? Be kind during divorce? But that is when we want to almost kill each other?
Yes, I know. But, unfortunately, the nasty words and threats that often accompany the period before the divorce, especially the women threatening to keep the children away from their father, get the man so angry, that the only defense he has is holding back the get.
Today, it is impossible to stop the civil divorce, but his revenge is to stop the get.
Courts are not the solution, and coerced gittin are totally worthless.
The only solution is to divorce with enough peace and friendship that he does not need “leverage” to save face or protect his right to see his kids.
I hate to say it, but our people tend to have some of the most hateful divorces, with so many cases of the women not allowing visitation, or even worse, turning the kids against their fathers, that I can understand the men holding back, and using the get as leverage.
Sure, a man who gives a divorce and just out of meanness refuses to give a get is wrong, and in many cases a rasha…. but it is not always like that.
Remember, we are usually hearing the wife’s side, and cry with her sadness, and her desperation.
But, when we play back the story before or during the divorce, and listen to those words she screamed at him, or threatened him with, we may see that the man had no other recourse to save face.
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WOMEN:
NEVER deprive children of a father, and NEVER deprive a man of seeing his children… or a regular basis. Be generous with this. NEVER THREATEN TO DO THIS.
NEVER turn kids against their father, and NEVER THREATEN to do this.
NEVER empty bank accounts to take the money…. yes, I know some told you to do this.
Oh, he is such a horrible man that you don’t want you kids to know him anymore? I doubt that is true. It is your anger. And it is your selfish wish to have a new marriage without having to deal with visiting ex-husbands. So much easier to tell a potential future spouse, the kids to not see their fathers. Don’t do it. It is important for those kids to have their real father, and threatening to prevent that will come back to haunt you.
The same for those emptied bank accounts. You can not expect to empty the bank, taking the money your husband is counting on, and expect things to go smoothly. You will be in worse shape in the long run if you do this.
Remember, this man is your kid’s father. When you hurt him, you are hurting your children’s father.
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MEN:
Keep your tempers and voices sane and normal during all these trying times. Many times one party screams or yells, then the other elevates it higher, and then the threats happen.
NEVER threaten to not pay support for your kids. The divorce is not their fault! They are your kids. Yes, divorce is horrible and is tearing your very heart out of your body. You feel all broken and hurt. You are angry at your wife, you feel betrayed and abandoned. But, NEVER threaten her financial security, or her ability to support your children.
You threat to not support, can result in her threats to not allow visitation, then the anger builds…..
This woman you are so angry at right now, is your children’s mother. If you threaten her, you are threatening your kid’s mother.
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TO BOTH OF YOU:
If you can’t talk civilly to each other and negotiate fair and friendly divorce arrangements, go for divorce counseling…. maybe meet with your rov and rebbetzin.
STAY AWAY from attorneys until AFTER you have come to basic agreements. It is often the attorneys that push too far, and hurt the other more than their client originally intended. He does this to have more bargaining power, and to look like such a good lawyer. But he will hurt both in the long run. TRY to settle all important issues BEFORE going to attorneys. AH… but you don’t agree on a few “things”? What are they really worth? Are they worth your children’s relationship and respect for their parents? Are they worth paying the attorney $1000 to fight over something worth $900?
The more things you work out BEFORE you go to the lawyer, the more peaceful the divorce will be, and the better you will both end up.
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LADIES:
I know everyone tells you to see your lawyer before even telling your husband anything. That is BAD advice. This makes a man feel betrayed….. hence anger and revenge.
I know everyone tells you to empty bank accounts, or transfer funds in a way to “protect you” before letting your husband know anything. THIS IS BAD ADVICE.
This will certainly cause the man to feel betrayed, and victimized, and stabbed in the back. …. hence anger and revenge.
I know everyone tells you to have a best friend of family member help you through this all. BAD ADVICE. Again the man feels betrayed… not only by you, but by the friend and/or family member. He is then so angry at that other person for helping you, that he takes that anger out on you. Be strong, do this yourself… well not yourself, use your friend,,… the one you are married to.
TO BOTH OF YOU:
YOU ARE BOTH JEWS. Act like Jews, with ahava and sholom EVEN DURING DIVORCE.
For whatever reason you are getting a divorce, it was probably both of your faults. Yes, yours too. If you think it was all his fault, you are deluding yourself and will have another divorce in your future.
If you thing it was all her fault, you are in the same boat.
It is always both parties.
You messed up the marriage together, how about trying to end it together with cooperation.
Your bank accounts will thank you.
Your children will thank you.
You will both have proper custody/visitation for the circumstance.
Children will be supported.
Children will not learn meanness and lack of caring.
and you will have a smoother, cheaper divorce and a kosher get.
But…. better yet, try to FIX the MARRIAGE
Remember, any marriage can be saved. Well, almost every one, obviously there is 1 circumstance where the shulchan aruch says no.
I believe the Court determined the amount of damages the recalcitrant husband must pay his victimized wife pursuant to an agreement for him to have given her a ‘get’ in 1995. His failure to comply with an agreement that he (the husband) was a party to represents a breach of contract and the Court’s assessment was the value of damages to the wife. The Court ruling is not a meddling into religious affairs.
While I feel rachmanus on any woman who is an aguna, a forced get is not kosher, and if chas v’sholom a woman were to remarry after such a get she would ultimately be much worse off and a much greater rachmanus.
it is a very dangerous precedent for the court to get involved in religious issues, no matter what.
My best friend got divorced in Canada. Her husband used the “Get” as a bargaining chip to get more assets and less child support obligations.
When my friend complained to the Rabbonim and Bais din they said there is nothing that they can (want?) do.
The courts have to get involved because the Batei Dinim are not. Don’t blame the courts, they are only getting involved because we are not doing a good job.
When Rabonim can be bought by the rich, they should not be relied on for the granting of a get. Unfortunately, too many high profile messy divorces had rabonim taking sides and money changing hands and gets not being issued.