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Rabbis who represent K’hal Adath Jeshurun, a small ultra-Orthodox community based in the Washington Heights section of Manhattan, have announced that they will not continue to certify products at the huge AgriProcessors slaughterhouse in Postville, Iowa, because, they said, another rabbi is restricting their access to the slaughtering process. Months of negotiations between KAJ and AgriProcessors fell through at the end of last month.
“We are fully cognizant of the momentous repercussions that our decision entails and can assure that we have not taken it lightly,” the rabbis wrote in a letter to AgriProcessors.
Until two years ago, the head rabbi at AgriProcessors was Rabbi Chaim Kohn, who is affiliated with KAJ. Kohn played an important role in the scandal that resulted when People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals castigated AgriProcessors for the practice of ripping out live cows’ throats, which some say is condoned by kosher law.
“Kohn helped PETA to understand that the practice did not violate humane standards,” KAJ president Eric Erlbach said.
Kohn left AgriProcessors shortly after the PETA scandal and was replaced by Menachem Weissmandl, who leads a small community in Monsey, N.Y., known as Nitra, after its birthplace in Hungary. Read extended article [forward]
Rabbi Gelley and the KAJ deserve a tremendous amount of credit for their mesirus nefesh in this case. They are making a strong statement that no matter how much you are willing to pay, we cannot put our hechsher on your product if we do not have full access to supervise. Other agencies should learn from them, rather than rely on another agency’s rav hamachshir. They are taking a lot of flack and critcism over their handling of this situation, but I belive that they deserve a big yasher koach.
dear anon 953 i work with many diffr hechshers the big guys usually would only come during bs hours after davening with a big minyan & brkfst & leave everything up 2d mashg onsite
When I was growing up there were a number of shochetim in our extended family.
Not only was EVERY kosher slaughter house open to ANY Rabbi at that time, but when my mother wanted to show us shechita, we simply got in the car and paid a surprise visit to our “uncle” (actually a cousin) the shochet who was more than thrilled to give us a tour and lesson on kosher slaughter.
Back when I was growing up and kosher slaughter took place at the terminal market, there surely was no hiding and many school kids got up early to see and learn about shechita. I saw shechita many times as a child growing up and I will tell you that what was on the PETA film SURE wasn’t it.
My only question for KAJ is “hey what took you so long”. I stopped buying Rubashkin immediately after I saw the PETA video and so did everyone else I know.
Here’s what you’re not understanding.
The KAJ was/is paying half the salary of the head Mashgiach, yet he was not answering to them only to the other Hashgocha. The KAJ wasn’t being allowed to visit the plant to ensure their standards were being met.
That isn’t anarchy, thats giving a proper Hashgocha.
If you put your name on that package, you’d’ want unfettered access to the plant..At least I would hope so.
The OU’s guy makes unannounced visits. You don’t want advance warning going out- you want to see realistic conditions, not “best behavior” conditions. He has his own “kill floor” outfit so he can just drive up and walk into the kill floor.
Sounds like ausi is on the Alle payroll. Or someone’s. He seems to object to objectivity. I wonder what his real objective is, and whether it involves strange objects.
Seriously, that was completely uncalled for, and I expect an apology. Well, I don’t really expect anything; but it would be right for ausi to apologise.
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Anon of 12:25AM:
“Correct, you can’t have ppl off the street, but the Rav or Agency that puts their name/Hechsher on the package has every right to walk in unannounced, anytime they wish. If they don’t have access to see whats going on, they can’t give a proper Hechsher.”
Nor can you give a proper hechsher when people can walk in off the street without arranging it with you. And that’s precisely the problem with what KAJ wanted to do. The head machshir isn’t prepared to have people walk in without his being aware of it. He has to remain in charge of the kashrus, and he can’t have anarchy. It is unreasonable for KAJ to expect otherwise. Would they allow other people to come unannounced into a plant where they are in charge of the kashrus? So why should they expect other people to allow this to them?
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Anon 9:53AM wrote:
“I don’t know who you may be a Mashgiach for, but any Hashgocha I know about, has unannounced visits to plants under their Hashgocha. It is in their contracts. I have seen them.”
The mashgiach gets to come in unannounced. Not the Rov. And certainly not a rov who is not the head machshir.
9:53 –
I don’t know who you may be a Mashgiach for, but any Hashgocha I know about, has unannounced visits to plants under their Hashgocha. It is in their contracts. I have seen them.
If you work for someone that needs to tell the plant manager in advance that he is coming…. I’d ask more questions.
being a mashgiach i can tell u that KAJ is a good hechsher & most of the time any rep from any given hashgocho comes 2a plant they schedule an appnmnt & are escorted by a plant mgr. unannounced inspections with unresricted entry is for the mashgichim on site (they know the plant not the rav,while the rav still sleeps they are working already somewhere in a plant)
Sounds like Millhouse is on the Rubashkin payroll.
He sounds way to ‘objective’…..
As someone who knows ppl in the business very well, i can tell you that this had nothing to do with business, and everything with kashrus. if kaj believed that sth should be done a certain way, but their opinions were not followed or enforced, obviously they could not continue giving a hechsher. And as an earlier poster said, they cannot simply drop things from one minute to the next. they have an existing contract that runs out in a couple of months. (Of course, if sth would be outright not kosher, they would drop it immediately, but since this is not the case, they are waiting for the contract to run out.) Also, they did not take this decision lightly, but spent a LOT of time trying to work things out, but to no avail. And even after deciding to drop this account at the end of the contract, they did everything in a respectful, ehrliche manner. Only after Rubashkin rushed to publicize the matter (with their own story), did KAJ respond with their own ads and letter. And if they were in it for the $, as some posters claim, wouldn’t they simply keep the account and look the other way?? On the contrary, they are from the few truthful, ehrliche hashgachos of today.
Look at the Numbers. the store on 14th Ave was empty years ago. Now that they got weissmandel, it has become full. So get real
Millhouse – Correct, you can’t have ppl off the street, but the Rav or Agency that puts their name/Hechsher on the package has every right to walk in unannounced, anytime they wish. If they don’t have access to see whats going on, they can’t give a proper Hechsher.
What would you say if your local take-out or bakery only allowed their Rav HaMachshir to visit when he called in advance? I doubt you would eat in a such an establishment.
Anyone have any comments about Empire’s system? Rubashkin is the same CRAP
The holographic device is a great idea, providing everthing is Kosher before the packaging process. How do they explain what happens when a Shochet finds a “PEGIMA” on his Chalef rendering every bird NEVEILO all the way back to the last time he checked his Chalef. How are these birds ever found. For anyone that has ever seen the system it is IMPOSSIBLE to remove the actual neveilos. Other birds are removed in there stead, the process used is based on a PRI MEGODIM where 2 Schochtim are Shechting not a full crew in a MASSIVE PLANT. The Hetter used, is totally inappropriate for such massive quantities.
I am sure the general public is not aware of this problem amongst the many others ie: the travelling problems, sleeping issues etc. Shochtim are away all week
” Distance makes the heart go wander” there have been so many adultery problems with shochtim &* their wives because they are almost never at home
Yes, he is R Michoel Ber’s son.
Yes, you can’t walk in unannounced, without coordinating with the head mashgiach. He can’t have people off the street walking around doing who knows what. He’s in charge of the kashrus and if you want to make an inspection you have to arrange it with him. That’s how it should be!
I just hope we don’t have another Finkel story!
millhouse – How do you know that nobody was restricting the KAJs access?
The fact is that the KAJ was being required to schedule a visit to the plant, they could not arrive unannounced. That was one of the issues.
As a store owner in flatbush i always wanted to buy rubashkin, because they are the cheapest, only recently has my baal machsher (harrav garnish) allowed buying rubashkin, i spoke to a lot of people at rubashkin (opening a new acount..) they have almost doubled their sales since they started weissmandels hechsher (do people even remember that there used to be margeraten hechsher?)
rubashkin has the OU and weissmandel, and they also have Bais Yosef Shechita and Lubavitch,and a lot of others (steinmetz-viznitz-monsey..)
Btw is Rav Weissmandel a son of the famous Harav Michoel Ber Weissmandel ztz’l?
milhouse very well said
If KAJ thought it wasn’t kosher they would cancel the contract immediately. Just as the OU and Nitra would if they thought there was a problem.
The question is “mi barosh”. There can be only one person in charge, or there will be anarchy. There’s one authority in charge, and everyone else must work with him.
KAJ wants to be in charge, with nobody over them, or they’re not interested in giving a hechsher. BH they aren’t in it for the money, they’re in it for the inyan, and if the inyan is being done by someone else then they’re not needed. If you want davka them then you can’t have someone else. So they’ve given notice because they’re not interested in being second in charge, but they’re not leaving immediately because they don’t suspect that there’s anything actually wrong.
This is a very ehrlicher attitude, and I respect it 100%, but that’s all it is. And when you give someone an ultimatum: “he goes or I go”, you have to accept that the answer may be “you go”.
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Anonymous of 1:18pm (why is everyone here anonymous?) says “Restricting access is a halachic issue – not business. How can I assure that you are complying with my standard if you will not allow me access to check!!!”
OK, and if the KAJ gets the access they want, i.e. unrestricted control, then how can the Nitra Rov know that his standards are being complied with? The truth is nobody was restricting KAJ from verifying whatever they liked, but their standards are that they must be in charge, that they must be able to go everywhere with nobody watching them. There’s nothing wrong with that, that’s the Nitra Rov’s standard too, but only one person can have that kind of access.
The wonderfull thing about a blog is that it allowes someone who has a agenda to post their opinion even though its based on falshood and simple trickery.
mr. anonymous
1) the KAJ says themselves its not a kashrus issue in tTHEIR letter and statement. but you have a twisted proof due a word access
2)they say why they are not walking out because its not a kashrus issue
3)since you say that the bdatz was stopped at the door. can you please say
a. who were they
b. when did that hapeen
and finnaly you gave yourself away by saying that is why agri cant sell to israel. that is blog nonesense.
the reason is mad cow
Mazal Tov,
This is the official birth announcement of a new issue born to raise machlokess in our midst! To me the whole situation looks like dollars and cents. Washington Heights community is insignifcant next to the size of the Chassidishe Oilem that will start to buy the products with a Nitra Hechsher. The end. Why does everything have to be so complicated??
Why does it have to be mudslinging and garbage. The people running Rubashkin decided that for dollars and cents it makes sence to use the nitra hechsher,,, to me it sounds like the KAJ rabbis pride
was hurt,, get over it,, ur in it for the money too. And KAJ wont go without a fight, there is too much money they are going to lose! Bow out gracefully, and sholom al yisroel!
Mashgiach said
“1) If there was a Kashrus issue, KAJ would say so.
2) KAJ are continuing the Hechsher for another 2-3 months. Sounds to me like everything is Kosher for the KAJ, otherwise they would just walk out.
3) Restricted access in a Shchita means, who decides who will be the Shochet. Period.”
1) They said the issue was Halachic. No access means you can’t verify that it’s Kosher
2)They can’t just walk out. It’s a contract between two businesses. KAJ has to give them proper notice. They have said that because Rubashkin isn’t kosher, they won’t continue permitting use of the KAJ label for even one extra day beyond what is required
3) You don’t know what you’re talking about. Restricted access meant they could not even enter the plant. Same thing happened when a group of Bedatz Rabbis from Israel came to Postville. They were stopped at the door. This is why Rubashkin is no longer sold in Israel
I won’t eat OU, & don’t like Nitra either. I was very happy with KAJ’s standards of Kashrus…as a descendent of choshove Yekkers I know how machmir they are. The KAJ hechscher is the best, so now what? I’m a very confused consumer. Are those (OU & Nitra) my only choices with Rubashkin?
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Stick to Alle and Satmar. Ignore the rest.
12:38 – A business desicion?
The KAJ released a letter they sent to Rubashkin explaining that we are leaving although you have asked us not to. The letter is online and very public.
Excuse me Mr. Chashuver Yekkeh – What exactly makes KAJ ‘the best’???
I won’t eat OU, & don’t like Nitra either. I was very happy with KAJ’s standards of Kashrus…as a descendent of choshove Yekkers I know how machmir they are. The KAJ hechscher is the best, so now what? I’m a very confused consumer. Are those (OU & Nitra) my only choices with Rubashkin?
1) If there was a Kashrus issue, KAJ would say so.
2) KAJ are continuing the Hechsher for another 2-3 months. Sounds to me like everything is Kosher for the KAJ, otherwise they would just walk out.
3) Restricted access in a Shchita means, who decides who will be the Shochet. Period.
Anonymous 12:58 PM
“it was all a buisness decision “
The article states:
“they said, another rabbi is restricting their access to the slaughtering process.”
Restricting access is a halachic issue – not business. How can I assure that you are complying with my standard if you will not allow me access to check!!!
it was all a buisness decision
If Weismandel wanted control and KAJ wanted control 1 had to go
and Rubashkin figured that his buisness will grow more with the Heimishe olem with a Weismandel Hasgach then with KAJ , and for those who dont care for Weismandel Rubashkin still has the OU ,
So the KAJ is hurt that they lost such a big account ( understood) but this has nothing to do with kashrus , if it did , dont you think the OU would have made a statment
there was no orthodox, until the Reform movement. It was just jewish.
I any event, it seems that anytime there is two hechsers, there will be a fight
I once heard in the name of Rav Aron Soloveitchek – ‘ah galoch dahr zein frum. ah yid darf zein ehrlich’.
Some are now promoting the designation “Fervently Orthodox.” I personally prefer “Yiddishkeit.”
Expatriate Owl said…
Since when is KAJ considered as ULTRA-orthodox? They seem to be just plain orthodox to me!
[N.B. The designation “ultra-orthodox” was invented by the infra-reform.]
January 10, 2008 10:50 AM
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Posted by another one of the RBS”O’s accountants.
Since when is KAJ considered as ULTRA-orthodox? They seem to be just plain orthodox to me!
[N.B. The designation “ultra-orthodox” was invented by the infra-reform.]
It seems from here that Rubashkins got caught in a fight between the two Hechsharim.
if we hear the cows story i think we will know everything.
there are always two sides of the story.
Thank you for publishing this information.trying to keep kosher in this age of large companies is a new challenge for yiden who take it seriously. We truely need all the information we can get.