New York, NY – In an upper East Side restaurant sat Jason Lederman, 23, who took out an ad in the Sundays Daily News asking Matti Lieberman, 22, of Midwood, Brooklyn. "Matti, will you marry me?".
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Matti's hand shot up over her mouth as a waiter handed her a copy of the NY Daily News, and surprise – to a stunned nod: "Yes."
Jason slipped the marquis-set, white gold ring onto her finger and a diamond bracelet – a traditional gift in Orthodox Jewish wedding proposals – onto her arm.
In an effort to keep her from seeing the ad until he was ready to pop the question, Lederman's one-eighth-page ad ran only in yesterday's Manhattan editions.
"Anticipation is key," he said of his coup.
To do that, Lederman hired two actors and got them to approach the couple as they walked into a mandolin concert on E. 70th St.
"Are you the guy from the newspaper?" one of the actors asked Lederman, who, feigning ignorance, responded, "I don't know what you mean."
That left Lieberman, twisting her program all during the concert.
"Did he get arrested and not tell me?" Lieberman said she wondered as the music swelled, until the waiter in the upper East Side restaurant handed her the copy of the Daily News.
The only clue that Lederman was going to propose, Lieberman said, was that her mom – whom Lederman had told a week ago – suddenly became very interested in her vacation time.
"My mother was following me around with a calendar," said Lieberman, a career counselor at Magen David Yeshiva High School in Bensonhurst. [NY Daily News]
As a frum jew, I have the right to say the following.
You guys are so hard up that all you think about is touching the other gender. It is none of your business what they did. Mind your own business.
You are in no position to pasken on others. Chances are you sit/stand on the subways (if you work!)each day and stare at women of inappropriate dress. You are obssessed with these issues.
Grow up and look at yourself and your own hangups before preaching to others.
I know of one guy who shooshes me occasionally in shul, yet his wife dresses in such a mode that I cannot resist looking at her!!!!
I will let you fill in the details on that.
I know these people, they are absolutely shomer Negia, and he DID NOT slip a ring onto her finger. The writer exaggerated the story to make it sound more romantic.
Please, for all you people looking for a “lav” how about “choshed B’ksherim”?
no one denies this couple their innocence their happiness and their simcha and blessings for a wonderful life together.
However, the story is over the top.
The modality is over the top.
The misrepresentation of customs and traditions is over the top.
The haughtiness, expense, publicity, and false representation of minhag is over the top.
If they didnt want such publicity, they should have thorught twice about being so public in the first place.
How good it is to not be you, you spiteful, hurtful wretch,
Who peers into his fellows’ lives
and, finding cause to kvetch,
Unleashes his unwanted bile
At things they like or do,
(Or dont; he makes distinctions not!)
How good to not be you.
How good it is to smile
and be happy for a friend,
Instead of angry, ugly, small,
Begrudging till the end!
How lovely not to point and judge
At other people’s taste,
and wonder whether what they’ve done
Is proper, classy, chaste?
How marvelous to cheer and clap,
At someone’s happy news,
and not instead to gossip
and malign one’s fellow Jews.
To exercise discretion!
Yes, instead of sniffing out
Another’s indiscretion,
Without owing for some doubt.
The truth is that i am extremely disturbed that us yidden are so quick to pass judgement on each other! How many times have you read the newspaper and you say wow the media really plays around with the truth! Yet when it comes to judging your fellow jew you assume the media is correct? Of course they are shomer negiah! Chas veshalom to accuse yidden of such a serious aveirah! Shame on you! And especially chosheve yidden like Jason and Matti who always put others before themselves! can you imagine the pain you have caused them with the typing of your fingers! Motzei shem ra is many laven and a very serious aveira! So please i beg of you my precious brothers and sisters do not be hasty in you judgement!
I PERSONALLY KNOW MATTI AND I THINK A PUBLIC AD IN THE NEWSPAPER IS NOT HER THING. HEY, HER HUSBAND TO BE WAS TRYING TO BE CUTE AND IT SURELY GOT PEOPLE’S ATTENTION. LET THEM BE AND PEOPLE: GET A LIFE AND MOVE ON. THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO DO IN LIFE THAN SCRUTINIZE OTHER PEOPLES’ LIVES. YOU’RE NOT ON THIS PLANET FOREVER SO GO TAKE CARE OF THINGS THAT ARE IMPORTANT.
Ignorance is bliss.
(Better b’shoigeg then b’meized.)
And if you think this is nutty, a few months ago a guy proposed over the loud speaker in Shoprite. What is this world coming to?
MAZEL TOV MATTI AND JASON!!! I HOPE YOU DIDN’T READ WHAT THESE PEOPLE WROTE.
A bracelet AND a ring?? Nice!!
My girls didn’t get that, but they all got great PRIZES!!!
Hope this Chassan turns out to be a prize, too. At least we’re all talking about a nice, sweet topic, not the nasty stuff we keep reading about.
NO. i was saying that this gets highlighted to everyone and the world and that this gets misrepresented as a “traditional” orthodox jewish marriage proposal when in actuality is a midwood invented by the sick yeshivishe crazies in midwood.
To the point,
You are further proving my point. On what basis are you allowed to assume (you know what they say about those who assume right?) that this couple was over on any of the issurim you listed?
4:09/4:53
You said “so we have people begging on the streets for “hachnosas kalleh” while the world gets to read about the orthodox “traditions” of spending money on expensive newspaper ads and expensive diamonds for proposals.”
You specifically contrasted this incident with those begging for Hachnosas Kallah. A not too subtle way of saying that these people should not be spending money on expensive newspaper ads but rather on giving tzedaka.
Actually i didnt say or imply anything about this boy’s zedaka habits.
i was making a point about our “community” in general.
MY FRUM BUT GOSSIP-MONGERING BROTHERS AND SISTERS, PLEASE STOP WRITING THAT THIS COUPLE IS BEING OIVER SHOMER NEGIAH BY HIM PUTTING THE RING ON HER FINGER, BECAUSE THAT JUST DIDN’T HAPPEN.
IF YOU KNEW MATTI AND JASON, YOU WOULD KNOW THAT THEY WOULD NOT DO THIS, AND THAT THE STORY HAS BEEN RIDICULOUSLY EMBELLISHED BY THE PERSON WHO WROTE IT.
The real shaila is whether it’s okay to believe a sensationalist newspaper rather than be Dan L’Kaf Zchus a frum couple.
It looks like a lot of you haven’t passed this Nisayon.
Thank you, those who did.
You people all have what to say without knowing the chasan or kallah. Does this make sense? You don’t know their situation past or present. They happen to be two very frum wonderful people. Stop the loshen hara!Mazel Tov !!!
it is indeed very sad that frum jews don’t even know simple halacha. a basic place to start is even haezer siman 22 which talks about the issur of chiba. next even if if they were married it is assur to show chibah to your wife b’rabim. how sad that people can misconstrue pirkei avos which says dan lkaf zchus with the issur of chiba b’rabim ( which in itself is also a massive chillul hashem to transgress torah prohibitions in public ) if you want to be dan lkaf zchus then you can say that maybe he was ignorant of basic halachos. and all this this is even without the question of safek kiddushin or shomer negiah which is a fundamental part of yiddishkeit which again if you transgress it on a regular bassis you have a din of a mumar l’taiovon look in the rambam in hilchos teshuva what the consequences are. it is indeed sad that people are lacking in the most basic fundamentals of yiddishkeit.
4:09 PM
What gives you the right to decide that this man gives anything less than he is obligated to Tzedaka? Are you *that* jealous of others that this is only way you can deal with their successes? By knocking them?
its still a gross lack of tznius on sooo many levels.
no humility these days.
and besides, why in the world must a marriage proposal not be a valid one unless it is done via gross amounts of intensly planned shtick?
so we have people begging on the streets for “hachnosas kalleh” while the world gets to read about the orthodox “traditions” of spending money on expensive newspaper ads and expensive diamonds for proposals.
“Mi Keamcha yisroel!!!”
boy do we have serious issues.
Many are makpid that the chassan should not give jewlery (be it engagement ring or bracelet) directly because of the shaale of safek kedushin. L’maaseh, I’m pretty certain that most poskim would say that there is no issue in this instances where it is quite clear that the give was not given l’shem erusin.
am ho oretz,
I will try to explain. In one sentence – Havei Dan es kol H’Adam L’kaf Z’chus.
Its a basic element the Chafetz Chaim teaches in Hilchos Loshon Hora. In almost every single circumstance one is mechuyav to be dan lkaf zchus. There is absolutely zero reason for you (or all the other morons on here) to assume that this Jew was over on any issurim. ZERO. And I dare anyone here to find the heter to NOT be dan this man L’zchus.
It amazes me how you are all so worried about how he put it on, is he allowed to propose, is he allowed to give the ring … and every other naarishkeit you can think of but simple bain adam lchaveiro is not even considered for one second.
Just because someone is Jewish does not meam they can not be romantic!
yeah this ring issue may have her basically married to him if indeed he put it on her finger as your blog implies??
what happened to negiya?? i thought orthodox couples were A)shomer negiya b)didnt tocuh in public?? can someone explain???
Its amazing, that a nice story like this got so many negative responses.
As usual, most of you really dont get it.You need a refresher course in what “frumkeit” really is.
Sounds like right out of Hollywood.
Ah Shande!
We all know how these Hollywood marriages end up.
I wish them the best, However I just wish this was done with more of a Yiddishe Ta’am.
“In response to question #1 – I am not a posek, but it is possible that giving a ring and saying “will you marry me” is almost like saying “Harey At…”
This is incorrect, since the term MUST end with the term “kidas Moshe v’Yisroel” If not, your Kiddushin is not correct and you are not considered married.
Ask your local orthodox rabbi!
January 14, 2008 2:24 PM
*********************
I know that, but it still may be a shaila of Sofek Kidushin. It’s probably OK as long as he doesn’t say “will you marry me because I am giving you this ring”.
Any poskim here that can weigh in on this?
ann 1039
you think there marrige is better???
Why can’t you people just say “very cute”, or “whatever” and move on! Just because you do not agree with or understand or appreceate what transpired does not give you the right to knock it. If you are chassdish, you’ll never understand, if you are older, things change and people like doing cute things these day. As far as giving a ring or bracelet, if you can not afford one, don’t give it! This person gave what he wanted to give. He is not marrying you or your daughter so RELAX!!!!
Just be happy that another Bayis Neeman B’Yisroel is going to be built! Be happy another Jew is happpy!! STOP trying to find fault in everyone and everything!!!
“In response to question #1 – I am not a posek, but it is possible that giving a ring and saying “will you marry me” is almost like saying “Harey At…”
This is incorrect, since the term MUST end with the term “kidas Moshe v’Yisroel” If not, your Kiddushin is not correct and you are not considered married.
Ask your local orthodox rabbi!
“they should check their facts. there is no “orthodox tradition” to give a daimond tennis bracelet at “wedding proposals””
You right…in the “Alta Heim” they gave each other cows or chickens and women were forced to marry men their father picked out.
10:42 etc.:
It is possible to put a ring or bracelet on without skin-to-skin contact.
11:40:
In response to question #1 – I am not a posek, but it is possible that giving a ring and saying “will you marry me” is almost like saying “Harey At…”
anon 10:39. You sound like a Chasidishe kid who thinks you are missing out by “dating” the Chasidishe way. The reason you get to choose out of just five as you say, its cuz’ ur parents screen things so well that anything inappropriate doesn’t come your way.
Everyone should do it the way they want and if people are into the proposal thing then fine. But trust me, there is no proof that it makes a happier marriage!!
they should check their facts. there is no “orthodox tradition” to give a daimond tennis bracelet at “wedding proposals” it is an exclusive moronic yeshivishe schtick invented by the crazy people who populate flatbush.
Most normal people cant afford such gaudy trinkets and even in brooklyn those that cant need to keep up with the jonses in such stupid ways. how many months of rent can you pay for with those dumb bracelets?
\what a chilul hashem that the journalist and the goyim think this is a “traiditional” orhtodox jewish custom
a shonda.
I think all the old, farbissene, frustrated, individuals should smile and think back to when you were young and full of life.
Maybe spice up your own and enjoy what you have instead of being a grouch under the pretense of religion.
Mazal Tov!!!!
May this adorable young couple build a bayis ne’eman b’yisrael and may they enjoy only simcha until 120 years!!!
HAHA—-My Wife proposed to me!!! I was too scared to propose….I wonder what people have to say about that?:):)
The Lav is “Lo Sikrovu Legalos Erva”, Maclokes Ramban & Rambam if it’s D’Oreisa Or D’Rabanan
The Daily News photographer got a shot of them there. And since this was advertised in the News, this was well planned and known to the reporters in advance.
For all you Amoratzim:
Pray tell me which ‘lav’ they are transgressing?!
While touching may not be appropriate, it is certainly not a lav in the Torah.
As a side note, I am sure the reporter was not an eye witness, rather he is describing what he thought most likely happened.
Just to be dan likaf zichus, a little, it’s very possible he didn’t actually slip the ring on her finger nor the bracelet on to her arm, and she was the one who actually put the jewelry on herself; maybe the reporter or editor of the original article ASSUMED that since man gave woman ring+bracelet, man put ring+bracelet on woman. It “ain’t necessarily so”.
As far as the method of getting engaged, I think it was pretty tasteful; I wouldn’t call it chukas hagoy – if the ad was in HaModia, would you have been happier? The more effort a man put into anything, the happier a woman is – so why fault him for trying? I give him credit for making her happy and wish the two of them much hatzlacha and bracha in their marriage together.
Interesting point about the ring and kiddushin and chiba. I have 2 follow-up questions to ask, with all due respect, if anyone knows the answers and would like to share:
1) Why is giving an engagement ring shelo lisheim Kiddushin a problem re: possible marriage? Since everyone knows that our engagement is only the prelude to marriage, but not part of the marriage itself, by that logic, you shouldn’t be allowed to give a bracelet either, since both are worth way more than shaveh pruta?
2)As for chiba, does giving a ring really cause that kind of kurva, or does it primarily make the woman feel more much more special and get the chosson on track for the commitment that they both will make at their marriage? Any time an engaged chosson and kallah spend time together, they most likely will grow closer – should they not be allowed to see or even talk to each other until their wedding?
10:47 AM no one must understand romance but if you dont get it that dosent make him NUTTYYY NUTS NUTS!!!!!!!!
I agree. If they are already transgressing the prohibition of touching, at least they should’ve had the courtesy of not doing it publically. A bit of humility would have been in order.
Its an oiver of shomer negiah because this is not the wedding ring (where they are married). An engaged man and woman may not be oiver shomer negiah.
Lets not be shy about the lav. Its called shomer negiah.
The Luabitcher Rebbe on engagement rings:
Other Gifts But Not A Ring
I have already spoken very forcefully about the unfortunate custom wherein the chassan gives the kallah a ring [in honor of their engagement]. [How can this possibly be done, when] this can lead to a great pitfall, since this is similar to the ring the chassan gives his kallah under the chuppah.
There were those who responded with the argument that the intent [in giving the ring] is not an act of marriage, and so on.
However, this is a specious argument, for the whole intent and purpose of presenting the kallah with a gift of a ring is to stimulate thoughts about marriage.
Why, then, give a gift that leads to many [ halachic] questions if, G-d forbid, chassan and kallah should break off the engagement – questions that are so severe that they are of a capital nature.
Even when they stay together, [the chassan’s giving the kallah a ring for their engagement results in] questions with regard to the marriage blessings.
[This being so, why give a ring as a gift] when one can give a gift that avoids all questions and problems?!
This leads to an even greater snare: when the chassan conducts himself in the manner that it is specifically he who places the ring on the finger of his kallah.
This is done, of course, in order to bring about a degree of closeness between chassan and kallah – so that it should not be said that the chassan’s presentation of the ring to his kallah is being done without sincerity, etc.
[When this is done in such a manner, then] this results in the obvious question of why this should not be considered [a prohibited] “affectionate closeness” (kirvah shel chibah)![5]
If this were not enough, the Rav or Rabbi is invited [to the ring-placing ceremony] so that he may give a sermon – something that he happily does, without offering the slightest murmur of protest that concurrent with his sermon the chassan is placing a ring on the kallah’s finger!
Why enter this quagmire by giving a ring?! To be sure, the chassan is not being compelled to give [his kallah] a Siddur Korban Minchah, so that he not be thought of as a batlan [other worldly] – but neither should he give a ring. If one insists on giving precious gems and pearls – then do not give a ring, give another piece of jewelry.
It is a mitzvah to publicize the above.
(Sichos Kodesh 5741, Vol. II, p. 512)
10:39, You sound like you had a very poor childhood.
Since when must one ”understand romance”?
(besides romance in America means how quickly one can lose their virginity.)
10:17 – No, that is NOT the shaila. There is no prohibition of giving it directly. But the real shaila is how he put it onto her finger and arm without being oiver a lav.
January 14, 2008 8:27 AM are you jealous? you probably dont even begin to understand anything about romance.
and 10:14 AM i dont think its a bit to far and he didnt do it to make the marriage better lol its a very cute and creative proposal which we chasidim dont have we get to choose max out of 5 kids that our parents decide we can choose from.
Where did they say anything about a ring?
Isn’t it a sheiloh for a boy to give the ring to the girl directly ?