Update to story below.
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Israel – The reform movement IRAC is forcing Israel's Supreme Court to rule on the legality of a special Egged bus system that is designed to accommodate the unique needs of the hareidi religious public.
The IRAC is joined in its complaint against the bus system by Israeli-Anglo writer Naomi Ragen.
Ragen complains that she was "insulted, humiliated and physically threatened" in 2004 when she insisted on sitting in the men's section of a gender-separate bus line in Jerusalem.
The suit asks that these buses be suspended until a survey is conducted to gauge the true need for them.
"There are lines all over the country, traveling to the same places, in which anyone can sit anywhere they like," one regular rider on the mehadrin line told IsraelNN. "There is no reason for a woman to sit in a men's section on a bus clearly intended to cater to those who observe Torah law," he said, "other than for the purpose of deliberate provocation."
The rider, who requested anonymity, likened the situation to that of a woman insisting on using the men's public restroom. "It's not illegal for a woman to force her way into a men's bathroom," he said. "But it would be unusual and bad-mannered, to say the least."
The state argues that the seating arrangement is voluntary and that the bus operators do not force passengers to sit in any particular area, but that the restrictions are set by the community served by the line.
The separate, "mehadrin" system was created in 2001 in response to a growing demand by hareidi religious Jews for a bus line that would enable men and women to travel separately without being forced into uncomfortably close proximity, especially on crowded buses.
U/D: 16:13
The justices in Israel came out very strongly against the ‘kosher’ bus lines, during the deliberations on a petition against them today.
The panel began its deliberation by noting that “even if haredi lines are allowed to operate, the clothing and gender-separation restrictions in play on them cannot be imposed on people who object to them.”
The court was especially critical of governmental institutions that have arranged for these special lines for the haredi community.
Justice Rubenstein noted that “it is inconceivable for a driver not to allow a woman on a bus because she is not dressed modestly enough. He suggested that the Transportation Ministry investigate the matter, a compromise to which the petitioners agreed.
if the men want to sit in the back of the bus go for it .. why should the women.
what about the elderly who cant make it to the back of the bus
this is stupid
I wish we had seperate seating in New York.
All busses and trains should be seperate seating. Every rider should get his or her own seperate seat.
anon 246pm
u r definatly correct u dont beat up anyone and u move and change seats
seems this particular women was there to stir up trouble and make a statement more then just getting on the wrong bus and sitting in the wrong section
it still doesnt condone being physicially harmed but as u see this was a pre-meditated attempt (and she is part of the law suit)which proves it
no one is forced to go on a charedi bus there are other non charedi buses for those who prefer to sit with their spouses etc
but what is illegal about practicing your religion ???of all countries for this law suit to be brought in israel the land that calls you to come home.
home to what? why do they ask jews to return home to israel if not to be able to practice our religion the way we want??? religion?
There is no question that separate seats is a good thing. The question, is someone doesn’t comply, do you beat her up and cause a chillul Hashem, or do you just move to another seat, and just ignore it this time.
to anon 1127
sorry about the caps
wasn’t intending to scream
now to address u
why am i imposing my chumras on u?you always have the option of taking the regular scheduled buses which is mixed and can sit next to and rub shoulders with whom ever you choose. but for the life of me i cant understand what it is you have against someone who is trying to watch him self from isure korus???
btw reb moshe’s tshuva wasnt addressing if you had 2 bus lines if you should choose the mixed rubbing shoulder bus, i’m sure with out a doubt in my mind if there were 2 buses traveling the same route reb moshe za’tzl would recommend using the seperate bus so lets not mix up the issues here (and now im screaming) DONT INVOKE THE HOLY NAME OF THE GODOL AND POSEK HADOR TO BACK UP YOUR KULOS
reb moshes tshuva is addressing when there is no other alternative
whether it was still permissive to use trains buses public transit being we are dealing with isure korus and yes reb moshe was matir it under certain circumstances the fact that the shaylo was asked and printed obviously shows u it isnt so pushut that its mutter for everyone and for all circumstances
BTW this is the reason why reb moshe ztl (and his family )hasnt printed many teshovus because laymen such as u read misquote,misapply his teshuva wreaking havoc on those who dont know any better and come out misquoting reb moshe as u did in your post
I am unaware of any contemporary posek who says that riding a mixed seating bus is asur. I’ve also personally been told (by a Chasidic rabbi) to take public transit in New York rather than drive so I can spend the time learning more torah.
Note also that Justice Rubenstein is orthodox.
To Anonymous 10:56:
1. Stop shouting.
2. See Rav Moshe Feinstein’s psak on riding the New York City subway system, which regularly gets significantly more crowded than busses in Israel generally do. Are there grounds for not sitting right next to a person of the opposite gender to whom you are not related? Yes, of course. But this does not mean that you can’t sit in the seat in front/behind/on the other side of the aisle, or even next to them (usually) if it’s a first degree relative. Based on your interpretation of “Lo Sasuru Acharei Levavchem”, there should be seperate times for men and women to be on the street, or at the very least, seperate streets with a Mechitza at each intersection.
Bottom line – you want to be machmir? Be my guest. But don’t impose your chumros on me.
EXCUSE ME ANON 1:44
THERE MOST DEFINATLEY IS A PLACE IN HALACHA FOR SEPERATE LINES
A)LO SUSURU ACHREI AYNEYCHEM
WHICH IF YOUR RELIGIOUS U SAY TWICE A DAY AND HAPPENS TO BE FROM THE TORAH ITSELF
B)EVER TRY TAKING A PACKED BUS?
SITTING NEXT TO SOMEONE U WILL ULTIMATLEY COME TO BRUSHING OR TOUCHING THEM EVEN INADVERTANTLY
OR IF TAKING A FULLY STANDING ROOM ONLY BUS U WILL AS A MATTER OF COURSE BUMP INTO BRUSH ETC INTO THE PERSON SANDWICHD IN NEXT TO U WHETER U WANT TO OR NOT FACTS ARE FACTS SO THERE IS A VERY STRON BASIS IN HALACHA FOR THE SEPERATE BUSING AND PS SINCE WHEN IS REFORM JUDAISIM INTERESTED IN WHATS HALACHOCLIY PERMITTED OR NOT PERMITTED???
NO ONE IS FORCING ANYONE TO BOARD
THESE SEPERATE BUSES ITS FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO BE MAKPID AND EVIDENTIALLY THE BUS COMPANIES HAVE MADE A BUSINESS DECISION TO SUPPLY THESE LINES TO ACCOMODATE
THE RELIGIOUS CLIENTEL (WHO ARE ITS MAIN CUSTOMER BASE)
If the government subsidizes the Egged, then the bus operator can not force anyone to sit anywhere!
We had this issues with Monsey Bus and the Michitzah. Monsey Trails lost. The people can put up a michitzah but if someone else pulls it down, it must stay down or you are discriminating. If you want to be mehandrin, then YOU sit seperate, but do NOT force your ideology on others!
Speaking as a ‘modernesheh’, I think the seperate seating busses are a great idea. I prefer that my wife and daughters not be forced to ride next to some of those people.
I have no problem with the etzem concept, but to physically (?!?!?!?!) attack a woman (or man, for that matter) for not adhering to the policy on the bus not only defeats the purpose of having the base – i.e. you’re touching someone of the opposite sex, but is a horrific Chillul Hashem as well!
The Egged cooperative gets a big Government subsidy, hardly the same as a private business.
When you make Chumras that are unnecesserey it causes precautions that are warranted to be trashed. Kol Hamosif Gorea.
I have no problem with a frum person starting his own bus line with whatever restrictions he wants, mechitza, seperate busses, tznius officer at the entry point, but do not impose on Egged or on the other bus companies what many people find offensive.
Every business caters to its customers. If people want frum looking food, they oay some Rebbe to sell out his name for “hashgacha”. Why should the bus be any less…
1. That’s too funny–the reform movement in Israel is called “IRAC”? As in, “Orthodox Jews are more likely to support the war against IRAC”?
2. If it’s technically voluntary, what’s the problem? Prosecute the hoodlums who attacked Ragen (check out her website, she’s quite the radical feminist) and leave the voluntary system that doesn’t hurt anyone in place.
There is no basis in Halacha for separate seating on a bus. If one has a Chumra, he has no business imposing it on others.
The reform movement is illegal-they discriminaate against the religious public, trampling on their rights not have have to be exposed to immodest dress and behavior. First, they’ll attack separate seating on busses then they’ll attack gender separation at the kotel.