New Jersey – A local Orthodox rabbi has joined colleagues in warning about the high risk behaviors of some students who spend the so-called yeshiva week vacation in Florida. Join our WhatsApp group
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In advance of yeshiva week, Rabbi Eliezer Zwickler of Ahawas Achim B'nai Jacob and David in West Orange sent an e-mail to synagogue families urging them not to send their children to Florida unsupervised.
"In past years, there has been activity which has been unbecoming of Orthodox Jews, involving abuse of alcohol, drug use, and promiscuous behavior. At times, there have been very tragic results," wrote Zwickler. "We are obligated as parents to educate our children and keep them safe even if they feel that our actions are not in their best interests. This is a matter of life and death on many levels."
"I don't want to sound negative," Zwickler said. "The bottom line is that parents have to be vigilant. As much as kids want their space and want their parents to stay out, they are still kids and we have to do parenting," he said. [njjewishnews]
It is not forbidden to travel and see the natural wonders of the world; according to the Rambam it is considered a mitzvah and a person should go out of his way to see natural beauty that will cause him to bless Hashem.
I am fortunate to have seen the Grand Canyon as well as 38 other National Parks with my husband and children. We drove cross country several times and camped.
We did not compromise kashrus, tznius, Family laws or Shabbos observance while traveling. My children range in ages from grown to newborn. B”H the older ones were never attracted to rebel.
They were however raised in Miami Beach and enjoyed the Boardwalk, parks, botanical gardens, fresh air, wonderful sunshine and warm weather.
If you forbid the permitted you will end up permitting the forbidden. And those who are looking for trouble will surely find it, just about anywhere (ie. the men’s mikvah).
Yudi and Matzahlocal101:
Yissurim are from the Eybishter and are delivered for us to learn something. The Gemorrah in Berachos reminds us that some issurim are from ahava, that the Eybishter loves us. It still says we have to examine our ways when issurim come.
The yungerleit on the helicopter are not being blamed for their accident. It is not kind to say that “it was their time”. You don’t know when the zman is anymore than the rest of us.
The point regarding vacations is just what are you vacating from, what are you leaving? Vacation, the root of the word is vacate – to remove yourself. Are you removing yourself from the yoke?
There is nothing wrong with a change of scenery. There is nothing wrong with recreation. But we shouldn’t assume that vacating is the same as recreating. Notice the recreation has a root of recreate, to renew, to make oneself a new.
Children learn from the examples they are shown. Are you recreating or are you vacating?
TO matzah local 101: How dare you make reference to that helicopter accident. There are young yesomim, families torn apart, etc.
Another thing is that your statements border on apikorsus, with a lack of emunah in the Hashgochas Hashem. This was obviously their time to go (tragically), and it would have happened in another way. I would recommend you go speak to the Rav you cite in your comment, and ask if you should post such cruel and vicious comments about such a horrific tragedy!!
I really hate having to be the one to teach Aleph Beis. But some people are oblivious, so here are the basics. (The most important is at the end, so if you don’t want to read the whole post skip to item #5 )
1) Parents need to be parents and while we would like to trust our children, we cannot trust the world at large. When I lend my car to someone and tell him to be careful, it is not because I don’t trust him. If I didn’t trust him I wouldn’t lend him the car. It is because there are thousands of maniacs on road, thus I remind him to be careful. Likewise we would like to trust are children, but can we trust all of THEIR associates and the people with whom they will ultimately interact? When we send them to the corner grocery, can we trust everyone that they will pass by or interact with on the the way? Can we assume drivers will slow down or stop and let them cross? The answer is no. We tell them to be alert. We tell them to look both ways before you cross. Therefore, a responsible parent does not send his kids unsupervised to a any foreign city. By the same token, a responsible parent who allows his children access to the internet, which is a window to the entire universe, both the good and bad parts of it, cannot allow unsupervised or unfiltered access, not because we don’t trust our children, but because we cannot trust the world at large. Anyone who has ever received even one piece of spam email with the word viagra or it’s many variations cannot possibly argue this point.
2)We would like our children to be trustworthy and responsible, but we also want to stack the odds in their favor.
3)The Frum Jewish community who LIVES in Florida, have jobs, school, sederim, and LIVES, etc. They don’t have all day to hang out on the beach like tourists. Aside from a few hotels and restaurants, 95%+ of Jews that live in Florida have nothing to do with tourism. When I lived in Florida I never had a tan because people who live in Florida don’t lie on the beach. They go from their air conditioned houses to their air conditioned cars and drive across the street to their neighbor’s air conditioned house. In Miami beach, NMB, etc, if you see a guy in shul with a tan, or white shoes, he’s a tourist.
4) Parnassah comes from the RSO and depend on one’s merit, tefilos, mitzvos, and Torah study. Blaming the economy or frumkeit for loss of revenue is saying “that in such and such a situation the almighty is simply unable to provide parnassah” (The same goes for college, BTW, as Reb Moshe zt”l writes in one of his Tshuvas: It’s basically kefira to say that the Ribono shel olam can’t provide parnassah if you don’t have that piece of paper hanging on the wall.”)
5)Lastly, VOS FELT ES OIS????? Who says you have to go Florida on school break? Who says you have to go anywhere on school break?? This is because of a certain amount of goyishkeit that has krept into even the most heimishe families. the need to travel, to do exciting things. I am reminded of a certain ill fated helicopter ride over the Grand Canyon in which several heimishe people where killed and the survivor lost a limb amid other yeesurim noraim. I don’t want to chas vashalom assign blame for that incident, but the fact is, your chances of being in a helicopter crash are infinitely reduced if you don’t step into a helicopter. As one chushava Yid (Reb M. M.) pointed out to me, we think that if we get into a car and we’re in the city in an hour, or we get in a plane and we’re in California in 5 hours, that it’s a mechaya! People forget that “havay naw vinod” was one of the klalos. It’s like the commercial on the radio: “You have to see Paris in the spring!” Uhhh, why? Because the guy that’s selling the tour says so?? Sorry Mr. Perillo, I don’t think so. I don’t have see Paris In the Spring or the fall or ever. The Goyisheh idea of having fun because yener says so, is absurd but unfortunately, it is pervasive in some of the most heimish elements. You want to know if you brought children up right? Tell them for a thousand or two thousand dollars I can send you to Florida and you’ll have a good time for week, OR I can give the money to Kupas Ezrah or Tomchei Shabbos and you’ll have the tremendous zchus of supporting aniyay eerchah. If they say yes give it to KE or TS without batting an eyelash, a lichtigeh Gan Edan awaits you and you could have probably trusted them in Miami, but they probably wouldn’t want to go there in the first place. If they tell you all their friends are going, it’s time they get new friends.
While we’re at it. I would like address a variation of this theme, a girls camp-tour group that advertises a three week adventure including the grand canyon, yelowstone national park, etc. OK, niflaos haboray, that much I can understand. But then it contunues: “with shopping in Beverly Hills and tours of movies studios, etc. What frum girl would wear anything that’s available in Beverly Hills? Who want’s to be anywhere near the lowlife that Hollywood calls celebrities and stars? Who is the organizer of this trip that insists on poisoning Jewish children by exposing them to the lowest element of American society? Aside from their meeyisdiga life style, I need not point out there are websites dedicated to bringing you latest arrests and prosecutions of these celbrities (and sports figures) for everything including murder, assault & battery, drug possession, shoplifting, driving under the influence, soliciting for prostitution, ETC. ETC. ETC. The genius that organized this trip cannot be considered reliable supervision if they can advertise shopping amongst Hollywood prostitues and see no problem with it. Any parent considering sending their teenage daughter on this trip would probably be better off sending her unsupervised to Florida. The heimishe magazines that accepted that advertisement should be chastised as well.
Have a Good Shabbos.
There was a column written last year in The Jewish Week by 2 mothers who were in Florida and witnessed the goings on there and wrote about how disgusting it was.
I do not recall if the 2 women were from New Jersey or Long Island or in fact if they were religious, but they were absolutely shocked at what went on down there.
I would summise that unless you are with your kids 24/7 down there you will have problems.
But then again, you have to know your kids.
So Rabbi Z. is not knocking Miami, per se, he is talking about the lack of supervision.
As far as frum adults misbehaving down there, I would suggest that you try N. Miami Beach or Boca or West Palm. No scene but very relaxing.
He should also be worried about his local schools!
I dont get it! Why say something now when the tickets are already bought? Make the fuss months ago.
All you need to do is look on Facebook at the pictures some of our yeshiva students put up and there is no reason to think that going to Florida is any worse than staying in Brooklyn, Lakewood or Main Street USA.
You know what???? There is nothing wrong with FL, but if he goes and acts like a crackhead, then there is something wrong with him, and he or she shouldnt be there! And you know what else? Maybe there’s something wrong with his parents that let him go!Wake up people!
Rabbi Z, it’s about time that somebody in a pulpit position had the guts to say what many of us have been thinking, and what the rest of us should have been thinking. Thank you.
Here we go with the blame game again!
PARENTS MUST BE PARENTS PERIOD.
How is it that my kids who are living in the same shmootz velt as your kids are not ending up doing drugs and other stuff which I won’t mention.
Stop with the blame game. There are no guarantees about anything but you have a better chance with having good kids if YOU as the parent are doing the right things.
As far as the parnassah thing goes- Do you say continue eat pig from a jew selling pig treif because he might lose parnassah.
“Parnassah” at the expense of yiddishkeit is not parnassah. Rabonim have been trying to assur junk foods in school so kids stay healthy. Of course the “heimishe” food manufacturers went nuts because they claimed they will lose “parnassah”.
Scream the words parnassah and people don’t know what to do with themselves!
When having a legitimate torah argument be the first one to scream to your friend “daas torah says….” and watch what happens!
The mishigasin in our shuls, schools and homes is what is killing all of us.
Concerned
anon 2:50
the kid who fell off his porch – was depressed and commited suicide and was from the 5 towns ….not miami
everyone brings thier garbage to miami and then blames it for having too much
Parents ….where are you ???
if you dont want your kids in miami dont send them ,however dont send your messed up kids there and then complain that there are messed up kids in miami
You are disgusting. The boy who nebach took his own life was with his father. Supervision is sadly not always the medicine. And it’s disgusting for you to imply that the boy’s parents were somehow to blame.
Miami is a town full of yiras shomayim.
New Yorkers come wearing on thier sleeve and leave it there.
Why does everyone get so bent out of shape about this? GUILT, perhaps??
The point Rabbi Zwickler made is don’t send unsupervised kids to Florida. He’s right; at least he has the guts to step up to the plate. I’d go one step further…don’t send UNSUPERVISED kids ANYWHERE! Not to Florida, California, Montreal, skiing in the Poconos…anywhere!
Supervise your kids on a great family vacation & everyone is guaranteed a safe & happy time (except perhaps the spoiled brats who want to escape Mom & Dad. Too bad.)
anon 2:50
the kid who fell off his porch – was depressed and commited suicide and was from the 5 towns ….not miami
everyone brings thier garbage to miami and then blames it for having too much
Parents ….where are you ???
if you dont want your kids in miami dont send them ,however dont send your messed up kids there and then complain that there are messed up kids in miami
oh also all the rabbonim are here every year including rabbi kotler from bmg, rabbi frand from baltimore and many more all in the last week
and yes you will see the guy who wrote the article there as well in disguise
1259 OBVIOUSLY CURRENTL LIVES IN FLORIDA AND JUST CARES ABOUT THE HIS BOTTOM LINE $$$$$
BUT IF HE CARED ABOUT YIDISHE NESHOMOS A BIT INSTEAD OF THE MONEY HE THINKS HE’S LOSING HE WOULD WISEN UP TO THE FACT THAT SENDING TEENS WITH OUT PARENTAL SUPERVISION IS A RECIPE FOR DISASTER AND HE IS CORRECT NYC IS NO PLACE FOR A FRUM BOY OR GIRL ITS A NECESSARY EVIL FOR THOSE WHO HAVE TO WORK THERE BUT DEFINATLY NOT A PLACE FOR FRUM YESHIVA BOYS OR BAIS YAAKOV GIRLS TO GO SHOPPING OR EVEN DR’S APPOINTMENTS WITHOUT AN ADULT CHAPRON AND HE IS INDEED CORRECT REGARDING THE CATSKILLS AS WELL
A NEW GOYESHE CONCEPT OF MIDWINTER VACATION HAS CREPT INTO OUR HEIMESHE SOCIETY
YEARS AGO IT WAS UNHEARD OF
IN MY DAYS WHEN I WAS IN ELEMENTRY SCHOOL BACK IN THE 60’S WE GOT OFF ONE SUNDAY AFTERNOON FROM ENGLISH 1/2 DAY
THAT WAS THE EXTENT OF MIDWINTER VACATION TODAY ONE MUST RUN AND FLY AND SEE AND DO ETC WE ARENT HAPPY JUST HAVING A FREE AFTERNOON AND THIS RAV IS 100% RIGHT AND MR FORMER NEWYORKER WHO MOVED DOWN SOUTH DONT WORRY HASHEM WILL GIVE U YOUR PARNOSA WITH OUT THE UNSUPERVISED BOYS AND GIRLS FLYING DOWN TO FLORIDA
MAY I REMIND U A CASE IN POINT LEST YOU FORGET THAT WE HAD A BOY WHO WAS KILLED LAST YEAR IN MIAMI FALLING OFF A PORCH FROM ONE OF THE HIGH RISE HOTELS ALONG THE STRIP “COLLINS AVE” IS THAT NOT ENOUGH REASON TO DETER PARENTS FROM SENDING OFF THEIR 15-19 YEAR OLD KIDS ALONE…..
I don’t understand how anyone frum at all can come to Miami Beach. just walking in the streets is veloi sosuru.
I f the adults want to change the children they should be an example tthemselves. How does a guy with a shtreimel walk in a place which is sedoim veamoiro. you need a vacation?? maybe go to Sudia Arabia. What excuse do these Rebbelech have for coming themselves and bringing Chassidim to a place that is preetzis of the higheght order in the strrets let alone on the beach where many of them stay in hotels.
A CHARPEH UBEESHA
anon 1:41 pm
it’s actually named Arthur Godfrey Road, for some famous Floridian. But yes, depending on a persons behaviour, using the meaning “G-d FREE” can nebach be very appropriate.
Unfortunately though, a person who chooses to behave that way in Florida, probably does the same wherever he/she is located.
Adults should come to Miami the week of Feb 24th when the Miami Beach Community Kollel will have its Annual Yarchei Kallah. Childrem should NEVER come unsupervised. Its not for no reason that the main street in Miami Beach 41st Street is called Arther Godfree Blvd.
Many people come to Miami and have more time to learn ,Daven like a mensch and ‘recharge’ others unfortunately….
Don’t blame Florida! Blame the parents!
Yes 12:05, I DO live in Miami Beach with my husband and children having moved from NJ 15 years ago where we were both raised. My great grandparents and grandparents were in the kosher meat business down here in the 1930s-70s.
You are correct in saying that from the “vacation behavior” we see in Miami Beach, it is obvious that the problem is not something that is acquired while on vacation in Miami.
However, South Florida is home to several beautiful frum communities, thousands of observant families, is it fair to malign a frum community by naming Miami specifically? Is it even permitted?
And yes, 9:14, many of Florida’s frum families can no longer make their living on the observant tourist market as only a fraction of those who used to come to Florida still do.
Many Rabbis have “forbidden” Miami as a vacation spot year round for their students and congregations.
With regard to the high prices on 41st, please consider the need to hire trucks to bring down every carton of Chalav Yisrael milk, piece of kosher meat and box of heimishe cookies not only for you while you are here but all year long as well. The cost of shipping adds a significant amount to the price of everything (even the Yiddish newspapers which because they need an airplane seat!! to arrive in time for Shabbos cost 25-30% more here).
I was one of the short tempered shop keepers for many years who too often became short tempered after being yelled at and accused of robbery for charging “more than it costs in NY” (I used to keep my shipping invoices handy to show all), not moving fast enough and for not having some critical item that you left in NY.
So on behalf of myself and anyone else who ever offended you, all I can do is ask for your mechila as I always tried to do when I failed to properly serve you in my store.
FINALLY!! I am a live witness of this Hefker behavior of the young folks coming to Florida “to air out”, I had the opportunity to stay in a famous hotel in Miami, while at the same time there was a huge group of youths, accompanied by (so called) supervision.
these “supervisors” or mashgichim were out of sight most of the time, besides when they had to travel to sightseeing or some other places.
what we saw there was SHREKLACH!
What do people do when sending their kids to Israel without parent supervision? Yeshiva takes up most of the time, but not all the time!
to the first commenter, talk to the families who lvie there, especially the oyung ones who are trying to live their lvies and rais their children. they HATE the vacationers from our area. they cant stand the kids, the adults and the yeshivishe, heimishe or mordern orthos who come and plague their streets, buildings and stores with their “vacation” behavior where people are trying to live and work on a daily basis. frum jews dont just take vacations, especially in florida when they take a vaction from life and frumkeit. its an absolute mageifa
unfortunately its not just the kids.
i was in miami recently on buisness and i was appalled at the sheer scores of heimishe adults acting like they were on a vacation from their lifestyle.
I second the (e)motion of all the posters downstream of Anon. 12:59AM
The biography and the sequence of development [that Anon. .. is attempting to portray] is all very nice [perhaps to read in a book, to be authored sometime in the future] but he/she is missing the point. The key word [as all the posters have pointed out] is un-SUPERVISED.
folks, i went to miami beach for years with my kids when they were on winter break. they did there the same as they did here in nyc. if they are driking or drugging or sexing, they do not do it exclusively in florida. its being done near the homefront as well. i saw too many of our youth being mechalel shabbos, sleeping on benches or chaises, walking around semi comatose because this is what they do wherever they are. the parents of some were just happy to know they are out of the neighborhood and out of their hair. dont blame it on florida. all parents need to be vigilant at home in order to raise a child that CAN be trusted if he/she goes away for a few days.
Undoubtedly, the NEW JERSEY Jewish News would rather people vacation on the Jersey shore than in Florida. It’s true that kids should not be sent to Florida unsupervised, but they shouldn’t be sent anywhere unsupervised. There are problems w/ kids going to Eretz Yisroel, for that matter, or even unsupervised in Brooklyn on a motzoei shabbos. Parents have to keep an eye out or arrange for appropriate supervision.
Kudos to this Rabbi – I’d love to meet him and shake his hand!!! Keep it up Rabbi, you’re THE MAN!!!!
There was always the possibility of kids (or adults) doing things their parents would not approve of. In todays world it is even more common and to be expected.
South Florida today is diffeent than years ago in that many families have condo units available to them. These units offer more convenience, privacy and possibilities than a room in a frum hotel ever offered. Sending kids to such a unit, even if Bubby is in the apartment or another apartment in the building is a risky proposition.
By the way, I always thought the frum communities in South Florida did not depend on tourists for parnassa. The rudeness and high prices charged to tourists in Jewish stores in 33140 is really uncalled for.
You might mention that the article is from the New JErsey Jewish News.Readers can read the whole thing at:
http://www.njjewishnews.com/njjn.com/012408/njRabbiIssuesHolidayWarning.html
The rabbis have it right this time. I have been there on the boardwalk several times. It is terryfiying to see what the young ones do on a typical night. Girls and boys hanging out in the most disgusting manner is what I saw.
YOu are right, it is not just florida, but the night life atmosphere without parental supervision gives these kids the feeling that they are free to do what they please.
Anon 12:59 needs to get some reading comprehension remediation. It clearly says in the post “unsupervised” that means without parental supervision. He said nothing about Florida being a bad place to go nor did he say that people should not vacation there.
12:59 doesn’t understand. It is letting kids go unsupervised that’s the problem. Florida is just the place where they typically go. People are lulled into believing that they’ll be OK in FL precisely becasue of the existence of a frum community there, not realizing that once they get there a drug/drinking/sex spree similar to college spring break hedonism can go on.
There is nothing wrong with Florida, several thousand frum families live and work here.
If young people will do things they should not, they will also do them in NY, the Catskills or in Israel.I did not see any Rabbi forbidding the “mountains” after the number of incidents that occurred last summer. Why is Florida off limits??
I lived in NY and worked on 47th St. Every morning, I walked past a number of inappropriate storefronts, and the people who frequented them. No place in Florida BEGINS to approach NYC in the number of opportunities to find trouble of every imaginable sort.
Rabbis who have been “assuring” Florida for the past years as a winter vacation spot have only succeeded in taking the parnassa away from the frum families who live here in Jewish communities established since the 1930’s, instead encouraging Jews to spend their vacations in Palm Springs Ca. where there is also no kosher dining or other Jewish resources. (I was last there 2002).
Assuring “Florida” is not going to solve the problems of “off the Derech” NY kids. It will only take away the parnassa of an entire Jewish community that has been serving the Observant traveler for over 70 years.
My great grandparents came to Florida in the early 30s to shecht and deliver provisions to kosher hotels from Palm Beach to Miami Beach. My family consecrated one of the first Jewish cemeteries and built a mikveh in Palm Beach. Today there are many mikvoth all over South Florida as well as yeshivot, Jewish camps, kosher restaurants and groceries, shuls, Judaica stores, kollelim, and dozens of other thriving institutions of Observant Jewish life. I do not know of any other warm weather vacation spot that can offer the same amenities to the observant Jewish traveler.