Winnipeg, Canada – Kosher Cover Up With An OU Mashgiach At Fish Company.

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    Winnipeg, Canada – THROUGHOUT the 1990s, the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corp. sold as kosher fish that wasn’t, well, kosher. It should have been a scandal, but it wasn’t because word never got out.

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    Even today, if you call the president and CEO of FFMC, as I did, you will find that he knows nothing about it — he arrived long after this took place and it seems no one with knowledge of it has seen reason to tell the new boss.

    The FFMC is the largest North American supplier of fish minced to produce kosher fish called “gefilte fish.” Its plant is certified by the Orthodox Union (OU), the most respected kosher certification organization in the United States.

    To be OU certified, the FFMC employed a rabbi to supervise the processing and cleaning required for the kosher certification. This is very important to all who eat kosher food, whether they are Jews who observe kosher practices or consumers who simply want to be assured that their food has been prepared according to strict hygienic guidelines.

    But according to information obtained from employees at FFMC, the rabbi was often derelict in his duties and management knew it.

    While he was required to observe the production line at all times, he spent a great deal of time in an office on a computer, or was simply absent.

    He was obliged to make sure that only fish with fins and scales were being processed, that species like burbot and catfish were not in the mix. Allowing a catfish into the mix would be as offensive to Jews as dropping pork into ground beef would be to Muslims.

    The rabbi inspector was in the employ of the FFMC from the late 1980s until 2000. But for at least the last five of those years, he lived in Kenora and commuted to Winnipeg once every couple of weeks to pick up his Government of Canada paycheque.

    In his absence, former workers say they were instructed to make OU labels to seal each box of minced fish, and processing lines were operated at maximum rates without due respect for the Jewish Sabbath and holidays. extended article [winnipegfreepress]


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    40 Comments
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    Reb Yid
    Reb Yid
    16 years ago

    Just to try to teitch up the halochos a bit:

    Pas akum itself is ossur, but pas palter is mutar.

    R. Moshe wrote that there is a heter to use bishul akum from factories (i.e. not a goy’s house of restaurant), seeing as the whole purpose is to prevent chasnus and that wouldn’t apply by goods manufactured at a distant site. Interstingly, according to R. Genack, the OU doesn’t rely on that heter on its own, but will rely on it if there are other reasons to be meikel.

    The OU (and, I suppose, other agencies) have some unusual ideas about what’s considered ne’echal kemo shehu chai. For example, they hold that corn IS, even though I doubt most people have eaten raw corn, but tuna isn’t, even though almost every kosher restaurant/pizza shop/grocery serves sushi. And. of course, lox is eaten raw (not smoked, and I don’t think kavush kimevushal applies to bishul akum).

    The colored fish (salmon, maybe tuna?) wouldn’t seem to require mashgiach temidi because you can eat them without seeing the scales, since they are recognizable by their color.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    wake up!!!! we can only depend on chasidishe kashrus agencies. No more ou. The chasidishe mashgichim,have much more knowledge,and most of all,YIRAS SHOMAYIM.Please Wake Up and Use only Chasideshe Hachsherim.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    our grandfathers all ate pas palter (yes, its different than pas aku”m)
    from the factories they dont make pas aku”m …
    the concept of oleh al shulchan melochim is an old one (re: potatoe chips etc.) the shulchan aruch brings as examples of Not oleh al shulchan melochim “dagim ketanim” which to my knowledge is the same as regular fish that are oleh, just that they look different, hence canned food makes sense that it would not be oleh

    holysmokes
    holysmokes
    16 years ago

    surprising that mashgichim don’t know the heter of the Mahartitaz’ brought by the ‘Hida saying that in a paltar environment there is no issue of chatnus and therefore bishul akum is permitted.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    As Rabbi Blumenkranz ZT’L wrote “The Chasidishe Hechshirim (those which are reliable)”

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    Remember:

    Bishul Yisroel is not a chumra… it is halacha.

    Pas Yisroel is not a chumra… it is halacha.

    Also, Bitul B’Shishim does NOT work if it is intentional. There is a clear halacha: Ayn M’Vatlin Issur L’Chatchila.

    This means that the entire concept of bitul is only when there was an accident or something non intentional.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    Well, I must say that it happened a few times when I worked for companies that had the OU, or Kof K and they wanted to add Chassidishe Hashgacha.
    The Nirbatur and the Vollover did insist on getting rid of some of the heterim, and increase the level of hashgacha.
    It was always a pleasure working with them, as they back up a mashgiach, and do not override him when he says something can’t be properly supervised as the company wants to set things up.
    They have definitely made things better at places where I worked.

    I find them honest, and reliable.

    True, no hashgacha is perfect. But these are the best I have found.

    Though the OU and Kof K, with the right local Rav HaMachshir and Mashgiach can also be excellent…. If you have no problem eating Bishul Akum

    They have this wild heter that says anything that will be put into a can does not need to be bishul Yisroel. They say canned food is not oileh al shulchan milochim.

    I disagree.

    I believe if the particular food item would be eaten by a king, it needs to be Bishul Yisroel. Putting it in a can does not take away the halacha.

    Also, they are MUCH to lenient when it comes to Yotzei V’Nichnas.

    I worked for one place where the Volleve came in to add his hashgacha, and insisted that the Mashgichim have the keys, open in the am, stay all day, and lock the doors at night. Much better than it was before he came. He did not just rubber stamp.
    He also DID change ingredients, limiting the source of frozen broccoli to only two sources.
    He really enforced the changing of uniforms each time an employee would go from the milchig kitchen to the fleishig.
    Also, he did not allow Pareve soup to be made in the same area as the Fleishig soup. (the OU had been fine with that) The problem (and he was dead right) was that when the kettles are close, and no wall or gate separating them, the chef can and will take the fleishig paddle out of one, and walk over to stir the pareve one. I argued this with the OU for 2 years. In came the Volove, and the problem disappeared. He had the pareve kettles moved to the other side of the kitchen, and a fence built around them.
    The chef walking into the pareve section, needed to change aprons and wash his hands. The OU was too lenient on that one too.

    In my area the OK is poor, due to their local rav hamacshir.

    So, all in all, they can all be good or all bad, depending on the Local Rav they employ, and on the Mashgichim.

    I worked in one area, where the rov hamachshir was the same man for all of the major hashgachas. Well, he utilized the heterim and KeHulas of all of them! He brought OU heterim to the Kof K kitchens and vice versa. The Chassidish hashgachas who came in did not want to take the jobs. They said, correctly, that it was “too loose” …

    So, NO, they do not automatically rubber stamp things. Not to my experience.

    Yes, there are some chassidishe hashgachas who are not that good, and do rubber stamp. But there are the good ones who don’t. There was nothing I could teach the Volover or the Nirbartur. They both are really on top of things. I miss working with them. They do not have anything here where I am living now. The Local Rav HaMachshir here, used by the OU is semi worthless. I will not eat anything that comes from the kitchens his mashgichim supervise.
    I finally refused jobs working under him. I could not do it and feel right.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    Anonymous said…
    bitul b’shishim already.

    There is a chumrah that I am makpid on to just eat a large amounts of foods so that each item you eat will be botul b’shishim in your stomach.

    Hard Working Kashrus Pro
    Hard Working Kashrus Pro
    16 years ago

    Anon 947a,

    You make a good point re the Volove and Nirbatur. I had a personal “run in” with the Volove many years ago where I accidently sub’d for a mashgiach who had an emergency and had to leave. It look years for him to calm down but once he found out I have yichus thru Duvid HaMelech, he calmed down.

    I am not saying anything about this case because, well, sorry but something smells fishy here. The point is that NO HASHGOCHA IS 100% PERFECT and if you think any hechsher is, you have your head in the sand.

    When there is a problem the hechsher is good if they want to deal with the issue and they change the policy or the situation at hand accordingly.

    Re the comment “the common rumor that all the Chassidishe Hechsherim just rubber stamp the OU stuff is dead wrong. When they take on a product with an OU hashgacha present, they still go over the ingredient lists, and often insist on some changes,” you my friend are very incorrect!

    How many times over the last 25 years have I had to teach the Holys about ingredients, where they come from and how they are applied?! Far too many! I’ve had to teach some Holys how to make cereal, how oil is manufactured, packed etc.! You name it, in my years I have taught them a lot.

    There are a few – VERY FEW – Holys that are worth something but for the most part, i am sorry to say, the OU, the OK, Kof-K, etc., hechsherim on products are just as good. Of course if you want Cholov/Pas Yisroel, you have to look harder but the mainstream agencies are at the top.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    Okay, here is comes. I can’t resist opening my mouth.

    I am a mashgiach, and have worked for the major and minor hashgachas.

    They are all good, and they are all awful. The organizations have their own rules that they go by, and the Mashgiach must follow their rules.

    Now, the common rumor that all the Chassidishe Hechsherim just rubber stamp the OU stuff is dead wrong.

    When they take on a product with an OU hashgacha present, they still go over the ingredient lists, and often insist on some changes. Many times I was thrilled to have Nirbatur or Volleve Rov’s hashgachas added, as it highly improved and tightened things up.

    They did not allow some of the Kulahs allowed by the OU. Both brothers are really knowledgeable and really try their best. Nobody I have worked with is better than Aron and Nuchom Efroyim Teitelbaum.

    However, that being said, NO Hashbacha is any better than their mashgichim. If a mashgiach goes bad there are problems.

    To be honest today, I will NOT touch any Yotzei V’Nichnas hashgacha, unless there is a VERY good reason to, like, Shomer Shabbos cooks, no non-kosher ingredients every present in the plant, no ingredient containers which can easily be refilled., etc.

    And even then, I really do not like the Yotzei V’Nichnas idea any more. It is all based upon Mirsas. This concept in the Shulchan Aruch is based upon trusting people to not want to ruin their reputations. (a bit oversimplified)

    Today, is the world of “Oooops” “I’m sorry. It won’t happen again.” and Hashgachas giving companies another chance ….
    MIRSAS IS DEAD!

    I firmly believe there is no longer a valid concept of Mirsas.

    Also, Yotzei V’Nichnas only has a chance under the following conditions:
    The people in the plant are honest and never try to put things over on the mashgiach.
    The Mashgiach has no fixed schedule, but really shows up very frequently with no notice at all.
    The Mashgiach can simply walk right into the plant, and not have to pass an office which can buzz the forman to warn “The Rabbi’s coming”

    But all that aside, even with a mashgiach temidi, which I urge to be the only way, there are still problems.

    Many plants and kitchens are way too large and/or busy to have only one Mashgiach. I worked in one place where we had four, and it still was not enough. I quit because I believed we were failing to keep up to standards, and they refused to give me more mashgichim.
    (a year later there was a scandal there. They still refuse to admit that it was the number of mashgichim at fault)

    Way too many Kulahs are used today. There are accidents, and phone calls to the Rav HaMachshir usually finds a heter. I have often come under fire because I dumped an entire lot of product into the dumpster or down a drain before calling the Rav HaMachshir because I knew his heter, which was very shvach.
    (Never had this problem with the Volove or Nirbartur)

    Another problem is Bishul Yisroel vs Bishul Akum.

    There are many ovens today which have no pilot light at all.
    The Mashgiach MUST turn on the oven each time the door is closed!!!

    Most require only that the Mashgiach turn on the oven only once, when the plant opens in the AM. This is DEAD WRONG.

    These ovens get cold in the three to four minutes it takes to empty all the cooked food pans from the oven and reload uncooked pans. Now you have uncooked food placed into a cold oven. The door is closed, the oven is turned back on. If the chef is a goy, this is PURE BISHUL AKUM.

    Some weaker ones have ruled that the light bulb inside the oven stays on, and that it provides heat that contributes to the cooking. So, as long as the Mashgiach turned the oven on in the AM, it is not bishul akum…. WRONG

    The halacha is based upon adding fuel to the fire to make the fire hotter. The light bulb is not related to the cooking fire.
    Also, the light bulbs are so insulated, that is it really doubtful if it contributes any heat.

    I always tried my best to be there every time I heard the sound of the oven beeping, so I could close the door. But most mashgichim don’t bother. Even I found I missed it sometimes.

    Also, EVEN if the light bulb did contribute heat, and EVEN if it is fine to have heat source which is not part of the fire …. still this is KOSHER FOR ASHKENAZIM ONLY! Sepharadim to not accept this heter at all!

    So, the packages need to be marked, “Kosher for Ashkenazim ONLY!”

    Most products today are like this, but not marked. This is not fair to the Sepharadim who are not knowledgeable. They rely on the hashgach and are being betrayed.

    That is an area where the Volove and Nirbatur are better than the OU. You can rely on their Bishul to not be Bishul Akum.

    Now, I will give the OU credit, that they, and the Kof K have strong rules on veggies and bugs. IF the Mashgiach follows their rules, they are the most reliable in that category. But … how many mashgichim really follow the OU rules when washing lettuce? no comment.

    I know it takes me a minimum of 90 minutes to wash ONE Case of lettuce…. Iceberg or Romaine

    How many mashgichim give the boss two or three cases in that time because “He needs it” ….

    It is backwards Mirsas.

    The Mashgichim are afraid of the boss.

    So… be careful what and where you eat.

    kashrus pro
    kashrus pro
    16 years ago

    I knew once this story posted that the jerks would start with the OU bashing and how the Holyer Than Thou hechsherim are better etc.

    Well gues what? For the most part, you cannot be farther from the truth. I have been in the industry for well over 25 years and I could say Aydus to you that most Holyer Than Thou hechsherim USE the OU, OK, Star-K, etc., mashgichim for productions.

    If you think some Rebbele runs out of the middle of the USA for a production, you are way off base! I cant tell you how many times I was the Mashgiach for them and I am not Chasidish!

    A friend of mine used to tell me about one Holy hechsher that put stickers on OU products containing grape juice. You think they rabbi knew what brand it was??? NO WAY! I could tell you it wasnt kedem either. (dont get too excited, kedem didnt produce industrial products back then.) There is other reliably certified Kosher certified Grape Juice out there available for kosher productions.

    The other thing to keep in mind here is that you are being m’kabel loshon hora from what?! A newspaper source for gosh sakes! I will bet the problem was not as bad as they said and I will also bet if it was, the OU fired the mashgiach right away.

    Anon 944, if you werent happy with the hasgocha where you were working and you didnt do anything about it, you are more at fault than the agency. You being the eyes and ears are responsible too. Any sane mashgiach knows that!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    Anonymouus 8:19 –

    I used to work as a Mashgiach, and one of the things I used to do was look at the invoices for incoming goods, the production logs, and the bills of lading for putbound product to make sure the amounts made sense. I’d also check the special “kosher” product wrap (with the hechsher symbol on it) to see if any of it had been used while I was out of the plant (they only did occasional Kosher runs) – I’d put the packaging in boxes that were sealed (with my signature in Hebrew accross the tape) between visits, but woudl count each time when I came back to see what had happened. Who did I work for that told me to do this kind of thing? Why the OU, of course – and this was back in the early and mid 1990s.

    Hebrew National is just as good
    Hebrew National is just as good
    16 years ago

    Does it really make a difference if it happened a week ago or 3 years ago or 8 years ago and it was corrected why the heck wasnt anyone notified that it happened and was corrected for most of us this is FIRST TIME NEWS i guess you can eat hebrew national or OU for me its the same thing or maybe HEBREW NATIONAL is a better hashgacah because they dont kid around we know what they are all about but unlike the OU you think your eating the best of the best but in any case it is on their cheshbon there is a yom hadin so if they think money is more important that aint my problem nuch hindret in tzvonzik

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    anonymous 5:16 PM wrote: Kosher and Yoreh Deah Aleph aside, what is so wrong with goyim making the fish on Shabbos unless we must assume Rov Jews eat that fish mince stuff and then they are doing mainly for Jews???????? Just wondering, but what a sad example of a Masgiach.

    Fish requires a mashgiach temidi. The equipment cannot be used for treife fish. The labels have to be under the care of the mashgiach.

    O.Gevald
    O.Gevald
    16 years ago

    Sorry, fellas. Let me break it to you. A Hechsher IS NOT A MASHGIACH! A Hechsher certifies that the company uses only Kosher ingredients, that’s all!!! Some times, or should I say, “many times”, all the hechsher does is look over the company’s invoices and shipping labels to make sure no “unapproved” ingredients were brought in since the last time they checked. The last time they checked could be one week ago or one month ago and in many cases where trust has been developed, many months can go by between checking that no other product was brought in etc.
    THAT’S ALL A PLAIN HECHSHER IS!!!
    EVEN CHASSIDIC ONES DO THE SAME!!!
    Rabbosai, get the facts!
    Go to factory tours.
    Get smart. Get scared! Ask your local Orthodox Rabbi, and find out that all hechsherim abide by the Shulchan Aruch, which has many Heterim for every situation!!!
    A Mashgiach though, does have the job of checking. Most products DO NOT have anyone checking the production line on a continuous basis.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    remember if you attack the ou you are attacking rabbi belsky a real choshuvah rosh yeshivah on whose acrayos it is on. he has done a yeomans job bringing credibility to the kashrus of the ou and is a no nonsense person when it comes to kashrus

    Rabbi Levy
    Rabbi Levy
    16 years ago

    Wake up people!!!!!!!! The hechsher business is just that.. A business pure and simple.. the Rabbi’s also want to drive nice cars, stay in nice hotels, fly 1st class.. Their wives also want fancy fur coats and diamond jewelry.. They are doing all this on the back of trusting yirai shomayim enough already throw the behaimos out already they are treif pure and simple! I stoped relying on hechsharem years ago!!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    as the famous saying goes “there is nothing more UNkosher than the kosher industry”

    ruboi kekuloi of charadishe hechsherim that put on stickers rely on the hechsher already there without puting in their own mashgichim – just charging more money to the consumer (i once received a large shipment of twizlers with a roll of stickers to put on myself)

    as rbbi blumenkranz a”h would always say “that the hechsherim should publisize what their kulos and chumros standards are”
    i think the reason they dont is because then you would realize that you can use the same kulos even without it having the hechsher on it (like laundry detergent??? floor cleaners??? plastic cutlery??? etc.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    THS WHOLE STORY IS FISHY

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    I’m chasidish & I still trust the OU over any hechsher. They have kashrus alerts sometimes which I never saw any by the chasidishe hechsheirim.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    It is incredible with which ignorance the comments are being posted. There is a Halucha of Yotzeh Venichnas,,, does anyone who was fast to comment know about that? My husband is a mashgiach, and he DOES NOT work for the OU. But there are many erliche yidden who do. When my husband goes to supervise, he needs to be inside the plant for his particular field every 30 minutes,,, does that mean that when a shift can be 18 hours, he is not allowed to sit down in the interim time, and play a game on the computer??? COME ON! This article is a vendetta, and I am surprised (though maybe I shouldn’t be) at the lack of intelligence in which these negative comments were posted. Should I also tell you that if u were to go into a very well known pizza shop in Manhattan the owner will tell u that he keeps a chasidishe hechsher ONLY because he knows it will draw the chasidishe crowd,, but that the Chasidishe rov who puts his name to that pizza shop comes in once a month to pick up his check AND THATS IT! NO MASHGICHIM ARE THERE and that chasidishe rov has one of the best names,, and in this case he is 100% relying on the OU or the OK, I dont remember which one of the regular hashgochas he has.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    say what you may,,
    the OU is still the best
    hasgocho you’ll find,
    there would not be any chasidish
    hashgocho with out it..

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    Anonymous said…
    bitul b’shishim already.

    January 29, 2008 5:54 PM

    sorry, we can’t allow people like you to use halachah to ruin a good scandal.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    bitul b’shishim already.

    Big City Actuary
    Big City Actuary
    16 years ago

    “The fellow who wrote the article is attacking the corporation for years (after getting canned). Ask someone in Winnipeg for more on the story.

    “FYI, the story he is alleging happened many years ago. The plant currently has hashgacha temidis which is accepted by all hashgachos in US and EY.”

    But, is it true?

    And, if true and never disclosed, wouldn’t it be newsworthy? Very newsworthy?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    I think I will invest in stock of pot and pan companies.Looks like a Monsey panic starting and lots of throwaway dinnerware.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    This is ALTE ZACHEN, this was corected about 8 years ago. they now have 2 Frum Yungeleit Mashgichim who live in Winnipeg.

    Many Heimishe Rabonim – from Eretz Yisroel and around the world -visited the Plant in the last few years, they say it’s very good.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    What manufacturers used this fish, & when was this going on? Do we have a Monsey Meat-type problem? Treife is treife, whether it’s meat or fish…isn’t it?

    i’m really confused here.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    genuis!
    95% of the so called “chasidsha” or “heimisha” hachsarim rely on the OU totaly or for ingredinets?
    wake up?
    we’re paying for extra hachsarim & only getting OU+ !!!!!!!

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    Kosher and Yoreh Deah Aleph aside, what is so wrong with goyim making the fish on Shabbos unless we must assume Rov Jews eat that fish mince stuff and then they are doing mainly for Jews???????? Just wondering, but what a sad example of a Masgiach.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    I know of a Rabbi who worked for the OU who after giving the OU written notice that he would not be able to visit a particular pretzel factory in PA continued getting annoying calls from the OU and their Hechsher symbol remained on the label for a FEW YEARS after the Rabbi gave notice.

    Whatever happened to “Ne’emonus” trusting a reiable individual would be the way to go all these hechsheirim are corrupt busineses.
    Simply we SHOULD NOT accept product from a big factory buy only what is available from a private individual or small business run by a trustworhty individual

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    anon 4:29 you obviously don’t know the difference between “frum” and chasidic. Most of the frum world uses OU. I suspect you are not refering to them.

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    i DONT trust them andhavent for many years, they use all kinds of heteirim so they caan make money , but theyll never tell you you can rely on those same heteirim if its not an OU certified product, this is not just a mistake, im sure it happens ALOT more than we will ever know, this one happen to have slipped out

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    does somebody have a personal reason to bring this up now after many years have passed? just wondering…

    Moshe Chaim
    Moshe Chaim
    16 years ago

    The OU website says: “Welcome to OU Kosher – For over 80 years the Orthodox Union has maintained the highest standard of kosher supervision. Today the OU certifies more than 400,000 products making it the world’s most recognized and the world’s most trusted kosher symbol.” Mistakes can happen anywhere but this seems to be a story of total mismanagement of the supervision process. That makes it far worse of a scandal. The OU has a lot to answer for. In the meantime, do you trust the OU hashgocha?

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    another not so surprising scam by the OU, yet no one will actually admit it, or do anything about it publicly

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    Another “Kosher Scandal”
    What else is new???????????????

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    i guess ill just eat OK from now on

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    thats why most of the frum world wont eat the OU they are there just for the money and couldnt care less about the kashrus

    Anonymous
    Anonymous
    16 years ago

    The fellow who wrote the article is attacking the corporation for years (after getting canned). Ask someone in Winnipeg for more on the story.

    FYI, the story he is alleging happened many years ago. The plant currently has hashgacha temidis which is accepted by all hashgachos in US and EY.