New York – the Kosher organization star K has issued the following statement
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Rav Heinemann, shlita, stands by his Psak that it is permissible to raise and lower temperatures on YomTov on ovens equipped with that particular Sabbath Mode feature. [not Shabbos, despite the name]
Please see Star-K website:, or call our office for details about your particular model. Star-K will, in the next few days, post an audio presentation from Rav Heinemann explaining his views.
For those who wish to refrain from placing their ovens in Sabbath Mode and still use their oven on YomTov, please be aware of the possible serious “Michshol” on many models. Opening the oven door will immediately shut off the heating elements, an act clearly forbidden on YomTov. Thus, even if you don’t raise or lower the temperature, it is still important to keep the oven in Sabbath Mode
The “Sabbath Mode Ovens” that the Star-K has helped design with a Heter P’sak of Rav Heinemann will surly cause a big stir in the Torah world as many big gedolim in Israel have in the past few days issued an isir ban against using it on Yom Tov
A Kol Korei on Kol Korei’s.
I love the ban-first-ask-questions-later attitude.
I love how your cursor becomes the star-k symbol when you click on their website.
YOU FOOL!! They did not ban-then-ask!!
They all read his teshuva, his entire shtickel Torah and they all think he is wrong!!
I think oyu are the one with the “attitude”!!
Anon@6:46
I love how your cursor becomes the star-k symbol when you click on their website.
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Thanks for the warning. They could be pushing some malware on your hard drive.
Indian Sheitels, the old-new bugs in the water, the Concerts–now the Shobbos Mode Ovens. Before Star-K and Rabbi Heinemann took on this issue he and a Ben Torah mechanical engineer spent many hours with engineers at Kitchen Aid/GE working thru the issues. Do the others understand the technology or do they rely on “advisors or so called experts”? Rabbi Heinermann knows the technology, the halacha, and the applications. Enough!
Shlomo R.
Nobody is arguing about the technoligy. THEY ARGUE ON HIS SHTICKEL TORAH!!
Did you ever hear it from him? I did, And it aint so simple!!
He finaly went public and published his “heter.” These Gedolim read it. ALL these Gedolim argue on him!! (And his bishul yisroel heter, and his bugs heter and his eruvin….)
Maybe it is time for him to throw in the white flag!! His Baalei Batim might be impressed with psakim… let him keep the psakim local. The rest of us don’t need or want his shticklach Torah!!
We must listen to the majority view of our current Poskim!!
Shlomo Radomske,
did you bother to read Rav Heinemann’s teshuva or the psak of the rabbonim who disagree with him before you decided that they don’t know what they’re talking about?
They are NOT disagreeing with him about the mechanics of how the oven works – they are disagreeing with him about whether it is permissible to halachically open and close electrical circuits on yom tov. And they also disagree about whether g’rama is muttar on yom tov or not. Its a halacha dispute not a mechanical/technological one.
I think in cases like this everyone should ask their Rav and that’s it. Don’t write about this. This shouldn’t even be in the news. If a Rav disagrees with Rav Heinemann then they can tell their kehilla what to do. We ALL should stay out of this.
We are certainly not qualified to get involved in this argument. We should all just ask our own Rav and not discuss this here.
The “Sabbath” mode feature was made so that we can leave the ovens on Friday night until the Seudah keeping the food hot and then automatically turn itslef off so that you don’t have to leave it on for another 20 hours for nothing!!!
That’s where the name “Sabbath mode” comes from. All the other uses are commentary!
Koach deHetairo odif and Kol sheaino boki betoiras __________ lo yehai boi eisek imohem. (all said without prejudice)
Gut yom tov
You dont have to be a velts chochom or posek to ban things or assur things but you do need to have brayta playtzes ( BIG SHOULDERS) and be a big chochom a nd posek to give a heter, which he holds by very strongly . I give Rabbi hineman the thumbs up for standing by his psak regardless of what others feel. Besides, This psak came from e. yisroel not from america. In america we should hold like our rav tells us . If you dont like his psak dont hold by it
“A Simple Jew: (7:47) and “A” (8:43), well said. My Rov told me R’ Heinemann is THE kashrus posak in the US and I have no reason to doubt his psak. I’m not nearly a big enough talmid chacham to argue either side, but I’ve used R’ Heinemann and the Star-K for MANY kashrus questions over the years as per my Rov’s instructions so any other psak is irrelevant to me.
anyone who follows this psak can turn off their monitors before shabbos and yom tov and type in a e-mail or post to a blog and press enter to send because there is no “roshem” to what you are doing. now whoever doesn’t think that they’re violating an issur shabbos or yom tov by doing so can also press the buttons of their oven computers on yom tov OR you could heed the position of the major poskim of E.Y. and America.
In order to give out a Psak [issue a ruling] one has to be well versed in both, Torah and technology! In the previous generations we had such Gedolim as HRH”G Reb Shimon Grunfeld and later the Chazon Ish and HRH”G Reb Shlomo Zalmen Auerbach ZTZ”L who, in addition to dealing with other aspects of Halacha had a unique grasp [and specialized] in technology (state of the art).
The MARSHA”G (Rabbi Grunfeld), for example tackled such Halachic questions [among others] (of his day) as the permission of setting a [primitive] timer to control lights and appliances.
In our time we have, in B.P. A very Choshuve Rav, (who shall remain anonymous) who specializes in answering and ruling on Medical/Technological questions.
Who was asked to sign the psak but did not? Without knowing this bit of information it is impossible to know who is in the majority.
We can safely speculate that Rav David Feinstein was approached but did not lend his name to the issur. This is not surprisng since Rav Moshe held that (1) electricity no darraisa; and (2) grama (such as opening a refrigerator door is permitted even on Shabbos and kal vachomer on Yom Tov.
My new, GE $1300 wall oven was broken when it was installed. So Shabbos mode or not, I just want one THAT WORKS!!
The fewer bells & whistles the better they are.
Rav Heineman, shlita, b’darko hakodesh, is a posek and has a right to disagree with the rest of the poskim. We should not find fault with him. He is a big talmid chuchom with a very sharp mind. I have seen him come up with heterim that others did not imagine.
However …. if he is your rov, fine, you may follow his heter, if you so choose. However, if he is not YOUR rov, then you may be better off checking with your rov, as it may be safer to follow the Rove … the majority of the poskai hador who do not permit the grama stuff at all, and also who completely assur these stoves for adjustment on Yom Tov.
You don’t get bigger Torah giants than HaRav HaGaon Shmuel Halevi Wosner, Shlita, (he is the Shevet HaLaivi.)
Also, HaRav Hagaon Yechezkel Roth, Shlita,
Also, HoRav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, Shlita,
and the rest. These Poskim are Torah Giants who are respected by ALL, Chassidim and Yeshivish alike. One should think twice before discounting what they say.
The Star K has a right to rule this way, for Rav Heineman is their Rov, but those who are in Rav Heineman’s kehilla need to think twice, and ask a competent Rov, or simply follow the other giants.
Most importantly, let’s all show kovod for the rabbonim on both sides.
Oy Gevald:
The “Sabbath” mode feature was made so that we can leave the ovens on Friday night until the Seudah keeping the food hot and then automatically turn itslef off
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The “Sabbath Mode” is an automatic override that will allow you to keep the oven on for 72 hours (as a 3-day Yom Tov & Shabbos). To keep the food hot and then turn itself off on Friday night, use the “Cook & Hold” mode. These are two completely different functions.
Are there any other solutions to the problem?
Even if Rav Heinemann is correct that one can close a keypad switch to immediately start the pseudo-random delay, is there anything less radical that we can do to adjust the temperature with a modern computer-controlled oven if we don’t want to go against all the other Poskim who won’t agree that it is allowed?
a Says:
anyone who follows this psak can turn off their monitors before shabbos and yom tov and type in a e-mail or post to a blog and press enter to send because there is no “roshem” to what you are doing. now whoever doesn’t think that they’re violating an issur shabbos or yom tov by doing so can also press the buttons of their oven computers on yom tov OR you could heed the position of the major poskim of E.Y. and America.
06-05-2008 – 9:03 PM
============================================ The shayla was not about anything else other than the shabbos/ yom tov oven . If you feel u have a shyla about your computer then submit it to rav elyashiv and rav heinaman and see the outcome . Until then , stop hocking about your computer. If you are so inclined to use your computer on shabbos then dont publisize it.
ANOINYMOUS 8:54pm said:
“A Simple Jew: (7:47) and “A” (8:43), well said. My Rov told me R’ Heinemann is THE kashrus posak in the US and I have no reason to doubt his psak. I’m not nearly a big enough talmid chacham to argue either side, but I’ve used R’ Heinemann and the Star-K for MANY kashrus questions over the years as per my Rov’s instructions so any other psak is irrelevant to me.
I sincerely feel bad for you. You seem to truly want to do the right thing! I’m so sorry for you that your own Rov does not feel competent enough to answer your shailos and must refer you elsewhere.
It is well known throughout the Kashrus industry that the Star-k standards fall weel below the other big ones. They rely on many people and things that the other guys would not. (Bugs, bishul yisroel and many other things)
Your home would be much better of if you stuck to the O-U or something!!
Babishka:
On most ovens, if you use cook and hold it will beep when the time is up and you can’t shut it off. With sabbath mode you can set cook and hold and it will turn off without beeping.
Can I redt a shidduch to a boy that comes from a family that uses Rabbi Heinemann’s Heter of ovens on Yom Tov to a girl that her family uses the Eiruv in B.P.?
As far as “a Says”‘s comment goes:
I understand shabbos mode doesn’t only tackle the issue of roishem (causing activity on the visual display) by turning off the screen, but also adds a random time delay to ostensibly make your actions gramma. Thats the issue at hand. Poor analogy to your computer screen.
Brutus
There was no reason whatsoever to gang up on Rav Heineman with a kol koreh from many chashuvah poskim and rabbanim! If Rav Eliyashev disagrees – so be it! But why make this look like a scandal was being perpetrated on klall yisroel that needed a kol koreh or psak signed by many rabbonim! Rav Heinemann issued his psak – b’t’mimus and b’yirah as he saw fit. Machlokes in din happens all the time! The tayna is on whoever made this into a national scandal and used these gedolim to be mevazeh Rav Heinemann.
PS. I have a shabbos mode oven for years and have never used the change temperature function on Yom Tov because I was always weary of its heter. Never the less – a publicly, mass signed psak against Rav Heineman’s understanding of the halcha is was not warranted – IMHO!
Grama and computers with the monitor off. No matter how you slice it, uvdin d’choil. But not ochel nefesh on Yom Tov. And by-the-way, is the the only modern shailah in which there is a daas yachid? You have close to that on the matter of cholov yisroel. There was a similar storm when Rav Moshe published his initial heter.
Oy Gevald & Babishka
>> The “Sabbath” mode feature was made so that we can leave the ovens on Friday night until the Seudah keeping the food hot and then automatically turn itslef off so that you don’t have to leave it on for another 20 hours for nothing!!! >The “Sabbath Mode” is an automatic override that will allow you to keep the oven on for 72 hours (as a 3-day Yom Tov & Shabbos).
Can you imagine what would happen to Bais Shamai if he lived in todays times? Or even to Bais Hillel for the times the halacha is with Bais Shamai? The Rambam and the Rayvid? and on and on. There is a chaluka dayos of the poskim. Everyone follows the Rav or Posek of their choice. But let’s stop this emotional screeming and insulting bizyonus from unnamed commentators. Kabalas HaTorah requires Kovod HaTorah too.
I think that perhaps all these unanimous gedolim feel so strongly about this that they felt they need to be mefarsaim this in order to avoid the rabim from a big michshol.
While Rabbi Heinemann is a great Talmud Chochom
I think that many of these signers are far greater and they also have a unanimous consensus by all of them that have studied his psak.
They poshut don’t see his opinion as having any validity. Since Rabbi Heinemann is not backing off they felt the need to come out with this KolKoreh (It is in no way an attack on Rabbi Heinemann)
READ PLEASE , MISSUNDERSTANDING ABOUT
SHABOSS MODE ,THE OVEN WILL SHUT OFF AUTOMATICALLY IN 12 HOURS FOR SAFETY .
THIS IS A BUILT IN TIMER BY THE MANUFACTURE.
SHABBOS MODE OVERRIDES THIS SO YOU CAN HAVE A HOT OVEN PAST 12 HRS.
ALSO I FEEL ACCORDING TO THE LAW THE THERMOSTAT CANNOT BE LOWERED ONLY IF THE FOOD WILL BURN .
OVEN REPAIR MAN
Brooklyn NY
So which talmud chachomim do we listen to?
The shabbos mode also allows you to set the oven light to either stay on or off the whole time. Otherwise opening & closing the oven door will turn the light on and off (like a fridge door)
If you actaully read the psak which you can get from thw Star K website, you’ll see that the heter is simply that since when you push the button that makes the oven temperature seeting higher or lower, you don’t sense anything happening, it is muter. Question for Rav Heinemann, can I then shut off a light on yomtov since all i’m doing is pressing a button? Of course not. Then how can he say that it’s OK to do this on an oven? I really think that all of you making comments should first read the actual wording of his psak from his own website. Then you’ll see how right the rest of klal yisroel is and how wrong he is. This isn’t an example of koach d’heteira odif. This is an example of corrupting and warping the halacha.
I read the p’sak and it does not say what you just wrote. This machlokos is not new. And macklokos generally are not new. Have you ever learned halacha. Give me a break!!!!! For 30 years we used crock pots with no stones. When Rav Shlomo Zalman z’l came out with his two line issur I asked my Rosh Hayeshiva Rav Chaim P. Sheinberg (say 18 years ago) and Rav Moshe Bick z’l and they said they disagreed. There is a well known story about some posek’ wife and the sun senstive glasses which Rav Urbach said was good and her father in law Rav Eliyashiv said was no good. Why is EVERYTHING now with this Kol Koreah and some mean and spiteful?
It was R.SZ Auerbach’s daughter who was stuck with a machlokes between her father and father in law about photo-grey lenses on shabbos and the Optometrist said “Lady, go ask a posek.”
In our time we have, in B.P. A very Choshuve Rav, (who shall remain anonymous) who specializes in answering and ruling on Medical/Technological questions.
06-05-2008 – 9:21 PM
Whats the point in this comment? I wish I can ask him but if you dont post it then…
What are you afraid of?
to RH supporters, what is the diffrence between the tora of erets yiroel and the tora of america?
last time i checked they use the same ovens from the same companies in both lands and if you dont want to be a koifer you need to believe there is only ONE tora to ALL jews in ALL of the world equally.
since when does a psak in israel not be relevant here in the USA and vice versa???
Simply ask your rov. If he doesn’t know (quite likely given that its quite an involved shayla and one that involves unfamiliar technology) he’ll tell who’s pask you should follow.
Asei Lcha Rav doesn’t mean you have to know which godol is “greater”, it means ask your local rov, if he doesn’t know he’ll tell you who’s psak he follows. I’d certainly never have the chutzpah to “judge” which godol knows his halachah.
Why is this so complicated?
anon. 3:29PM. RELAXX!!! My refrain (of posting the Posek’s name, on this forum) is not based on fear! He’s a well-known Rav in B.P. and his work is not performed in the dark! The only reason is, that I failed to get his permission, since he hasn’t ruled on this issue in public, yet!
RSZ clearly holds its all mutar,
its a grama bmakom mitzva on NOTHING, theres no sparks (solid state tech) just flowing current, whats the problem?
All I see is tons of amaratzus in these comments.
if you dont like Heinemans psak dont use it! but a kole koreh is nonsense
So can someone please tell me which oven to buy that does NOT have a machlokes attached? I have an old GE with dials, but it’s dying…help!