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Monroe, NY - NY Magazine Article On Kiryas Joel, Is An Escape From The Holier-than-Thou Journalist

Published on: July 16, 2008 10:18 AM
By: VIN News Editorial
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Monroe, NY - Yet another hate-filled, biased and anti-religious article appeared in the New York media this week— under the headline ‘Escape From the Holy Shtetl’  one that for obvious reasons was not reprinted by VIN News but which stoked a firestorm of controversy.  A young woman still finding her place in the world tears her beautiful daughter between father and mother and the stable and shifting lives they respectively live—but the writer takes the mother’s side without so much as an attempt at interviewing her hapless ex-husband or his co-religionists, painting him, and his entire faith community, as sinister, backwards fanatics while regurgitating virtually every Chasidic stereotype.  After considerable feedback from our readers requesting comment, VIN News submits its opinion below.

It’s a thunderingly useless universe that New York Magazine’s Mark Jacobson, a sniveling bigot if there ever was one, must certainly inhabit.


Primal hatreds so lavishly couched in affected sophistication are hardly found in such maddening supply as in the rapacious ravings of Mr. Jacobson and his clique, false liberals who put the lie to their pompously self-proclaimed tolerance by their embrace of the day’s flash-in-the-pan non-mores and their smug intolerance to anything resembling a life wisely lived.  Goebbels would be proud.

Else how to explain his unabashed reinvention of a clearly troubled, and yes, worthy, young lady as a lone crusader against the might of those mindless minions from Planet Monroe?  Could it be they don’t want a child growing up thinking drugs, and worse, are okay?

Mr. Jacobson’s scurrilous screed is the latest car in a never-ending train of deft, snide broadsides against religion, Orthodox Judaism, and “Hasidism” (whatever that is) that has ridden the rails of New York’s left-wing media monoliths since Chasidim planted American roots post-World War II.

It would seem that Jacobson would have tender four-year-olds raised on diets of directionlessness instead of walking with the existence-explaining lessons of the ages.

Granted, there are issues in Kiryat Joel—issues that have even lifelong KJ natives growing increasingly restless, though “symptoms” is possibly the better appellation—primarily, the troglodyte terrorists, and perverts who call themselves the Vaad HaTznius.  Neither trained in civil service nor licensed in any of the mental-health arts, this nameless, faceless goon squad perpetrates the vilest of home invasions, acts of intimidation and utter lack of classic Jewish ‘mentchlichkeit’ in their misguided Mafia tactics in a war long lost.

It is high time for the death of the Vaad HaTznius as we now know it—and its radical rebirth as a professional, sensitive organization complete with the currently-lacking office, phone number and credentials.  If there is one sole reason for Gitty and others like her to jump the ship of faith, it is the Vaad HaTznius.

But there are issues everywhere.  Any authentically open-minded liberal, unlike the current iteration of Mr. Jacobson, will readily admit that happiness is no more readily found in the decadent indulgences of secular humanism than it is in the regimented, simplistic lifestyles of religious isolationism.

Even Gitty Grunwald herself, that unwitting new champion of Manhattanesque materialism, admits as much when of her KJ hometown she informs Mr. Jacobson: “I envy them sometimes.  They never have to make another decision in their whole lives.” 

Tellingly, Mr. Jacobson does not pursue that angle.  But naturally, lofty journalist that he is, gleefully renders the Vaad Hatznius as the rule, not the exception, while blithely ignoring the astoundingly effective social-justice ecosystem that thrives in KJ (and every other major Orthodox community).  We ask: when was the last time anyone read an article in the secular media profiling the so many good deeds and organizations of the Chasidic Orthodox community?  And we rhetorically wonder: do these slanted smears really reflect nothing more than jealousy of a societal model that, for all its warts, still works better than today’s mainstream?  It sure seems that way.

To Ms. Grunwald, we say that the answer is not out there.  It’s inside.  Happiness can be yours, even in Kiryat Joel, whose doors will lovingly remain open should the key of honest exploration be used to turn their handles.  So do the right thing.

And to Mr. Jacobson, estranged cousin of a fellow Jew, about the kindest reaction we can muster is to smile in disapproval while reminding you that journalism once meant getting the facts.  And while you’re at it, do scrutinize your soul and get in touch with your true feelings.  You see, change the byline and you’ve got a piece Matt Hale could have written himself—and that anti-Semitism should rightfully shock you.

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Read Comments (173)  —  Post Yours »


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:21 AM Anonymous Says:

truth hurts?
it was an insightful piece.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:29 AM anonymous Says:

wow!!!! how true, and so eloquently said.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:29 AM Anonymous Says:

Its really a shem, i agree with our editor 100%


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:32 AM ANYNOUMES Says:

I didn't unerstand not one woord what he wrote heere & I promise you that ms grunwald wil neither she doesn't speak english well that's why she can't find a job
Anyway hatzlucha on bashing the vaad hatznios

P.S. Where are ur comments about the rosenbeeg contreversy ?


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:32 AM twerski Says:

wish i would of written your blog first/excellent 100%


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:36 AM twerski Says:

as far as the VAAD HATZNIUS let me be kind and remind all of the talmudic dictum" KUL HAPOSEL BMOOMO POSEL" THE REST IS SELF UNDERSTOOD


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:36 AM anonymous Says:

"since Chasidim planted American roots post-World War II."

They were here before then.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:39 AM Anonymous Says:

you forget that her grandparents WERE NOT SATMAR CHASSIDIM her mother flipped out and went satmar and raised her that way , but the article details her spending time with her grandparents who she sees have a normal life outside of satmar the way it was before. she has to go dress up one way just to see her won child its kind of depressing anyway.
But why cant they all just get along? who is stopping who?


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:45 AM Anonymous Says:

seems the chasidim have their own homemade version of kids/adults at risk!!
its a diffrent world out their today and if we dont face up to it and prepare for it were all in trouble whether litvish yeshivish chasidish etc
if children are prepared and shown love and the geshmak of living al pi torah we stand a chance otherwise the allure of the street will unfortunatly prevail


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:46 AM M Says:

What's this ignoramous woman doesn't want to realize, is that "KJ Girls" have an option to leave, unlike the "Afghan Girls" under the rule of the Taliban.

KJ is a lifestyle, that is chosen by young adults, to either stay and adhere, or leave.

She had no right to snatch that child away from her father, instead, they should have worked out a shared-custody plan.

Whether she agrees or disagrees with the KJ lifestyle, the child is not her's only. She needs to take resonsibility for her actions, & seek out inner-peace on her own. Mocking the KJ lifestyle, will only make her look like the disturbed fool she is.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:46 AM Benny Says:

KJ is private property and nobody must live there


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:46 AM Chaim Rubin Says:

While I do agree that NYMag is just pushing a "religious Jews are crazy" liberal anti religious agenda. I also think its important to keep in mind there are some serious issues with the way the Kiryas Yoel community dealt with this. Sure, the article may be one sided, but if she doesn't want to be frum, that's her G-D GIVEN choice. As terrible as it is to have to sit by and watch as a mother introduces her child to a non religious lifestyle. It's still the mothers choice, or rather the family court judges choice. As such this should be presented in a court of law and custody should be calmly and rationally decided there.

There are some horrible stereotypes there that are shamefully pushed as if fact. The writer obviously hate religion and it's obvious that this whole family has a history of dysfunction. It's a very sad story, but K.J (and all frum communities for that matter) have to learn how to deal with people who stop being frum more mentchlichly. In the end, like I said, this is a story about a mother, a father and a child and its up to the courts to decide who gets the right to raise her. If you think that by shoving religion down this young girls throat and ripping her away from her mothers arms is going to save her soul you are wrong. She will just continue the cycle in 15 years and be in the same spot as her mother.

It's time for us, as frum Jews, to learn how to deal better with our fellow brothers and sisters, no matter what spiritual level they are on. We shouldn't be constantly looking down on them and deciding FOR THEM what is best for them. If she hadn't felt so trapped and hopeless in that community in the first place she may have never left, or maybe sought a divorce in a normal frum manner. Instead she was smothered and isolated and dragged along forcefully with every little part of her life, which resulted in her dramatically gasping for air and setting forth this terrible chain of events.

There is plenty of blame to go around, let's not pretend it's all just an anti religious agenda. It's much bigger then that.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:53 AM Moshe Says:

Kudos to the editors of VIN. So well and eloquently written. You need to get your piece out to the mainstream media, or at least as a letter to the editor of the NY mag., although I highly doubt that they will print it. To Gitty I say, Satmar does not have to be your way of life if you so choose, but you at least owe it to your child to explore other factions of orthodox jewry, which has so much beauty to offer. It doesn't have to be Satmar or all the way to the other extreme. It's not like you left to choose an intelligent, intelectual way of life out there. You have to turned to the lowliness of American carefreeness of drugs and alcohol. Does not measure very highly on the richter scale of any high standard moral society. Gitty, come back to see the beauty of what your culture and religion has to offer. Don't seek the gratification elsewhere. We have it within. Ironically, if getting high, etc. would be rampant in KJ, you would be criticizing them for that. Now however, you have turned to that. I beseesch you to think hard and strong. It's 2 people's lives at stake here (as you have said in your interview with Jacobson), your's and your beautiful daughter's. Go do the right thing. On a side note to the VIN editorial staff: We would love to hear your thoughts on the Rosenberg issue. Let it roll.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:56 AM Dovid Says:




 Jul 16, 2008 at 11:02 AM Chany K. Says:

Benny you couldnt have said it better, it is private property if you choose to live there, you choose to follow the rules, if you cant leave.
Very sad article read it in the magazine last night, honostly i dont blame Gitty at all she comes from a real mixed up family, its not like she came from a real settled family and chose to live a different way, her mother was the one who chose a different life.
What i find the saddest part is, that KJ and the father are fighting for this little 4 year old girl, its sad because she will end up like her mother, its not possible otherwise, if you look through the 25 pictures that they have in the magazine, you can see this 4 year old girl is nebech leading a double life, she doesnt know whats right or wrong, she changes clothing/toys when going to her mother and changing them back when she goes back to monroe.
my heart goes out to the father, for him to have to deal with this now and the rest of his life.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 11:07 AM Danny Says:

She'll come around Bez"h.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 11:10 AM tootired Says:

With all due respect to VIN News, I think you are over-reacting to the article. Using nazi-like comparisons (Goebbels would be proud, Matt Hale reference etc.) erodes some of your other valid points. We cant shout 'anti-semite!!' every time someone paints a picture of us that we find less than appealing.

I did not gather from the NYMAG article any anti-religious bias at all. The article, however flawed, was a simple conveyance of Gitty's ordeals and personal demons. In order for the reader to understand whats going on, he painted what seemed to be a fair caricature of chassidic life in KJ. The truth is, no matter how well you paint it, life in KJ and the whole concept is so alien to mainstream Americans that it is bound to come off as negative. So what did you want him to say? Did he make up anything that was outright false?


 Jul 16, 2008 at 11:11 AM Anonymous Says:

Let's remember that KJ had exclusive control oer Gitty for the first 20 years of her life. They had the exclusive opportunity to mold her mind and turn her into the model of chassidic chastity they venerate. THEY FAILED. She saw through the vapid artificial piety of the community and saw it for what it is, an ersatz representation of religion, predicated upon dishonesty, mysoginy, throught suppression and theft of government benefits. She saw all that because, as the child of outsiders, she lacked yichus, and was denied the warmth, love and tender embraces communities like KJ reserve only for true insiders. Is it any wonder she recoiled in disgust?


 Jul 16, 2008 at 11:12 AM Chaim Rubin Says:

The way to deal with people who don't want to be frum anymore is with LOVE. By fighting against them you only push them further away from G-d. This little girl will one day grow up and hear the stories and won't want to be a part of that community either. Ahavas Yisroel is the key, not talking down to Gitty or telling her YOU know whats best for her ...


 Jul 16, 2008 at 11:15 AM Anonymous Says:

Private property?

The last time I checked KJ was an incorporated village, not private property.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 11:26 AM deepthinker Says:


KJ is Noah's Ark in a world that is drowning in immorality and atheism. Sometimes, an Ark can seem somewhat confined. But it's better than going outside in the flood and drowning.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 11:26 AM meme Says:

I know gitty and her Ex personally. There is a lot of lying in here things are made 10x worse in the article.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 11:26 AM A FRUM MINNESOTAN Says:

This would never happen in CHABAD, they know how to treat people with love and bring them back to yiddiskeit, SHAME on the mainstream chasiddim for dealing with her that way...


 Jul 16, 2008 at 11:30 AM Yehuda M. Mendel Says:

"primarily, the troglodyte terrorists"

For those of us who do not live in KJ, what does this mean please?


 Jul 16, 2008 at 11:34 AM moshe Says:

I thought the article was fair and gave an accurate portrait of how the fanatical community could ruin a person's life and their ability to act on their own. Having worked with those who escaped that cultish way of life, I can only say that things could have been worse for Gitty. I wish her strength in her battle.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 11:44 AM Jim Says:

This would never happen in CHABAD"

Leah Kleim proves your point, correct?


 Jul 16, 2008 at 11:47 AM mnachem Says:

the lebuvither rabbi use to say y talk bginusun shel ysreal when you can talk bshvuchn


 Jul 16, 2008 at 11:57 AM Anonymous Says:

Never happen in Chabad?! I take it you are a Baal Teshuvah through Chabad; I want to see your kids be meshadach with an established Chabad family, or will they look at you as a BT? Chabad has the same issues as the rest of the world. After the second world war, there were many more Chabad Chasidim in the US than Satmar. For some reason, although both groups have large families, the only way Chabad can reach population levels rivaling that of Satmar is to include everyone who has ever walked into a Chabad house, frum or not. Who is being more successful at retaining youth; Chabad or Satmar?
Please, leave politics and cynics out of this, and concentrate on real issues!


 Jul 16, 2008 at 11:57 AM bird in sky Says:

11:11- Since when does KJ has 'exclusive' control over someone? No one has had any control over me in the past 30 yrs here.

tootired- you obviously do not know KJ well enough. I invite you for a visit. Many people here choose to live life the way they want, not the way the vaad hatznios directs.

Dovid- You are right. The things she said were against the Torah, not KJ. And every yid that gives her right probably also has a 'problem' with the restrictions of taharas hamishpacha.

Chaim Rubin- Of course KJ has it's problems, which place does not?

10:21- Your answer baffled me the most. Truths??? I was aghast at the blatant lies that she said about KJ, and jews in general.

10:46- You are right. No one forced her to live here.

10:39- You certainly are not very religious yourself. (or you wish you weren't born jewish.)

And finally, why don't we look at it this way,this girl did not grow up in a typical KJ home, so who is she to bash us so?
I am proud to live and raise my kids in KJ. I am very well aware of the problems here too, and yet I think that anyone with a bit of common sense could live here 'even' if they don't follow the ultra strict Satmar guidelines.

Her problem is not about Satmar or KJ, it is about being jewish!!! And all of you who think she is RIGHT, how would you feel if 'your' child wanted 'out' of yiddishkait? I am sure you would be so thankful that he/she is happy being unstable and drugged. (after all happiness is what counts.)


 Jul 16, 2008 at 11:58 AM Anonymous Says:

No one is blaming Gitty, and no one should blame the Vad Hatznuis either. She is a lost soul that needs help, and only Hashem can help her find her way back. But the way this article was written is definitely giving a lot of pain and shame to GD. It is a massive chilull hashem, and betrays the Torah and its Mitzvos. And for those of you who think that this article brings out the point of how 'fanatical',you have a very big misconception. The torah is here to guard us, and give us guide lines. It is not here to make our lives miserbale. It is here to enhance our lives, and make it a better one. Each person can choose which way of living, and there are many choices. And if you feel it's too fanatic, then move down. Gives no right for anyone to go from something to nothing, and especially to redicuile and mock the Torah.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 12:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Bird in sky - I think you are 100% right. And have a very strong point.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 12:09 PM Dovid Says:

THANK YOU bird in sky & Anonymous





 Jul 16, 2008 at 12:11 PM suri katz Says:

Isn't their anyone higher than the so called vaad hatznius in Monroe? Do they just have free reign to do whatever they please?
Whoever is allowing them to terrorize the community is just as guilty as they are.
I think that so many in the community are so terribly insecure and ignorant about the true halachos in the Torah, and that's why they allow the perverted vaad to dictate to them what they can and cannot do.

If everyone would start learning the Shulchan Orach on their own, instead of just leaving it for the Dayanim, the vaad would'nt be able to mess with their heads so easily.

So listen up Monroe community.
The vaad will just shrivel up and die when you confront their SHEKER with the EMES.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 12:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Ha, Ha, No barbie dolls, sob:( . I know many goyim don't want it for their kids.
No DVDs, You don't know what I have in my closet.
TH, embarrasing? My 'husband' has the great honor of going to ask my shaalos.
Respectful goyim, would not want such pictires of them in a newspaper.
I just love the way her prettiness is constantly mentioned, is it a sin to be pretty in KJ?

Gitty is rejecting yiddishkeit. That is all there is to this story. I don't think her ex should just sit in the sidelines, and let his daughter be raised by a drugged hippie.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 12:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Nebach. Gitty comes from a mixed up family as you could see her grand father is proud of his Gay Son & daugther which adopted color children etc. I wish someone would show her what yidden are all about, and how nice it really is to live a real yiddisha life. And a pure life with all the halochos. Look around and see a nice yiddish family and a non yid. Family see who has more nachas from their family?


 Jul 16, 2008 at 12:20 PM airnont neighbor Says:

you guys are all missing the point what an idiot now she is so lucky a waitress, drug addict ha but wow she can eat shrimp there are plenty normal jewish women that choose to leave KJ and lead normal happy lives and enjoying there family us religous jews have amazing family values that the whole world is jealous of there is a golden middle way between KJ viebele and throwing it away totally maybe KJ should have a good look at there chinuch system and start teaching true jewish values as opposed to banning GOLDEN SHOES and Nuchem rosenberg its about time they wake up and relize that its 2008 not 1952 and its time to relate to the times so this generation can actually find being jewish a privilege as opposed to a burden find shabbos beutiful as opposed to a pain in the neck maybe they should teach there girls to wear makeup and look like daughters of royalty as opposed to looking like drabs with oversized clothing and thick ugly tights that when they go out of there bubble they resent the way they look how many kurbunos will it cost satmar until they adjust there methods?


 Jul 16, 2008 at 12:21 PM tootired Says:

Commentators keep on bringing up that she mocks the Torah. I dont see that... I only see her mocking some of the Satmar rules and regs. (some deservedly)

Can someone please point out for me where she actually mocks the Torah?


 Jul 16, 2008 at 12:29 PM balabusta Says:

I dont know if I deleted my firts comment by accident so sorry if it is a repeat.
There are so many Gitty's in our midst that try to get out of a life that is not for them.Then there are those who just go on and follow the rabbi or man of the house like robots and are dead inside (no say in matters, dress, education and sometimes even enjoying marital relations). From what I see/hear and know of KJ it is just as bad as a cult. Gitty got out of a life she did not believe in anymore. She is still a Jew and that will always be the case no matter what she does or dresses like. Judaism has many sects and levels of faith, culture and customs not all people have to pick one form of practicing our faith in G-d. I wish Gitty well and lots of mazal!


 Jul 16, 2008 at 12:33 PM Anonymous Says:

You don't see? Maybe you need magyifing glasses? Or maybe you're in the same situation as her. Firstly, making fun of Satmar, and KJ is also Torah - it's their way of Torah. Each indivisual has their own choice of how to take upon their Torah. And what about the part that she's making fun of Tharas Hamishpacha and the halachis, that is the main base of a marriage. NOTHING TO DO WITH KJ OR MONROE. Stop being foolish and sticking up for nonsense. This is a horror and Busha for Hashem and the Torah.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 12:34 PM Shaul Boruch Says:

There are valid points on both sides here. What is painfully obvious is that when people take to becoming judgmental, then only chatastrophe ensues. There is only One Judge.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 12:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Shaul Boruch Says:
There are valid points on both sides here. What is painfully obvious is that when people take to becoming judgmental, then only chatastrophe ensues. There is only One Judge.

That's right. Bottom line, this article is really not giving anyone any good thoughts.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 12:43 PM YS-DP-UA Says:


There are 2 issues here. Gitty, who is already gone and clearly not a fit parent, and Esther Miriam, who is being used by her confused mother as a pawn.

I have no time to mince words. Gitty is an unfit parent.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 12:47 PM Anonymous Says:

To those who are not blaming Gitty because she never had a choice raised in KJ.

A 20 year old woman has the choice whether or not to take drugs

A 20 year old woman has a choice whether or not to be promiscuous

A 20 year old woman has a choice about holding down a job.

Plenty of people are abused and they don't act in as narcissitic of a manner as this woman.

Her time for the pity party is up. It's her daughter's turn now.

Her daughter is not there to give her a sense that she is a mother. Her daughter needs a stable, loving caring mother. If she cared about her daughter - she wouldn't have her picture in a newspaper.

We can judge. If only so that we never become that which she is.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 12:52 PM Anonymous Says:




 Jul 16, 2008 at 12:54 PM Hesh Says:

tootired -- she openly mocks some of hilchot niddah that all frum people follow.

In general, she does seem to be a confused young woman who has no clue how to run her life, let alone be frum Jew. This is probably due to a combination of a unstable family life and growing up in perhaps the most isolated Jewish community in the world. She was never taught how to be a Jew in this world -- only a Jew in KJ.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 12:58 PM To tootired Says:

did you read the part where she derides the halochos of bedika -- and blows it way out of porportion? Did you then read all the comments about that issue, and think of the chillul Hashem that that made? that is not satmar rules, that's torah rules!!


 Jul 16, 2008 at 01:02 PM Anonymous Says:

NY MAG: "The husband SNATCHED her daughter away", LOL.. and what did she do? she actually SNATCHED THE BABY while RUNNING away from her husband to a "better" life (of drugs, loneliness and joblessness..) her husband acted accordingly, now it's the courts decision, no snatching, baby!


 Jul 16, 2008 at 01:12 PM Anonymous Says:

HESH says; This is probably due to a combination of a unstable family life and growing up in perhaps the most isolated Jewish community in the world. She was never taught how to be a Jew in this world -- only a Jew in KJ.

KJ stands in the center of NY state, it is no isolated world, especially in 2008, there are many types of people there from ultra ultra, up to almost modern (unfortunately), no one forces no body to act or live 100% as they wish.

but, there are organizations like Vaad Hatznius etc, that take care when major problems come up, when there is a child molester on the loose, or a perp spreading porn etc, then they come to action, and this is the reason why in such a big population there aren't too many such rotten apples like this Gitty is.

this NYMAG article is a total misconception, drawing wrong pictures and illustrations period.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 01:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Why is it ok for the KJ people to snatch away teh daughter and bring her back to KJ? Why weren't the police called? This point has nothing to do with which parent the little girl should be with. It has do do with dececy and morals and kidnapping a child is not moral. period.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 01:17 PM Anonymous Says:

"We ask: when was the last time anyone read an article in the secular media profiling the so many good deeds and organizations of the Chasidic Orthodox community?"

Alot of the wonderful chesed organizations like satmar bikur cholim are run by women who would never let a reporter near the operation because it is not modest. Masbiah soup kitchen was all over the news last year in newspapers and tv. the media goes where you let them go. if you dont let them in and treat them normally or welcome them they can not enter.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 01:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Instead of asking when was the last time anyone read an article in the secular media profiling the so many good deeds and organizations of the Chasidic Orthodox community you should be asking when was the last time you saw or heard the community leaders speak out against the bad things that come out of the community? when was the last time you heard a rebbeh tell his followers that stealing $ is wrong? that defrauding goverment programs are wrong? that double parking or blocking driveways so you can catch minyan is wrong? that moiney laundring is wrong? that not reporting cash income is wrong? if these issues would be addressed within the community then maybe people would not leave the community upset about so maney things. instead the message we see from teh rebbe is that fighting and machlokes is right. chilul hashem is ok. stealing and lying is right. money laundering is right. until they get caught. and then they promise bloc votes for a candidate a better examplew needs to be set by the community leaders and they need to shout against all these white collar issues that plagues the community.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 01:32 PM Anonymous Says:

I am posting this solely from the perspective of a parent. I sincerely hope that Esther Miriam’s family will defend her rights if she is pictured on the cover of this magazine and throughout without the consent of her custodial parent. I am less incensed by NYmag’s irresponsible journalism as by the blatant disregard for the privacy and the rights to that privacy of a minor. Gitty is entitled to do and be whatever she chooses, however, she does not have the right to compromise her daughter’s privacy. I truly hope that if no signed waiver exists, NYM will be forced to compensate for their greedy exploitation of a child


 Jul 16, 2008 at 01:42 PM tootired Says:

as far as Taharat Hamishpacha, from what I read she displayed her own opinion on the matter which was less than respectful.

However, was it ever explained to her properly? How many other young women are not being explained the beauty in all of this? Instead she is sick of it and finds it disgusting.

Oh I suppose she is supposed to find it beautiful because you TOLD her so. Well, apparently that didnt work for Gitty.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 01:44 PM balabusta Says:

tootired- I don't see it either. She is not mocking. She is educating the public that reads NY Mag about the lives of the ultra orthodox and KJ community.

anonymous 1:02 pm- I agree with you. What kind of morals are kidnapping?

BTW- I thought the "frum" are only allowed to read heimish magazines like mishpacha and the JPress. Afterall aren't all secular magazines banned. So why care what she writes if you are not allowed to read it?


 Jul 16, 2008 at 01:54 PM nachman Says:

Let's all agree that we are facing a great challenge. Why are we in denial?
If we do not act promptly we will lose many more of our children - G-d forbid, to the secular world.
Hert oif mit de blufferei...
Last but not least let's be mispalel for the safebeing of K'lal Yisroel.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 01:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Anon 1:13 and balabusta, Kidnapping is very wrong, and this is what Gitty did to her daughter, SHE KIDNAPPED the daughter from the father, it's immoral and non ethical. and the father used his equal rights to act accordingly, fair deal!


 Jul 16, 2008 at 01:58 PM Anonymous Says:

balabusta 12:29

right, there are in fact a lot of levels in Judaism, non approve her actions, Judaism is by the means of the Torah, when someone shrugs off the Torah and mitzvahs, she has nothing with Judaism, besides being a native Jew, and she always has an open door if wants to come back to shmiras torah umitzvos.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 02:07 PM Keegel Says:

I read the article before it was published by VIN and was sickened. A reminder to those of us who are Orthodox but non-chassidic, don't think for a moment that this woman's personal struggles are evidence that chassidism is a failure! Every jewish community, whether chassidic, black hat or modern orthodox has cultural issues that are the direct result of Judaism's battle with the secular world. It's called GOLUS! And time and again fringe groups pop up to "reform" things with the argument that they intend to solve all of Judaism's problems---but to no avail.

The answer lies within. As much as our minhagim differ, most people realize that we are all struggling toward the same goal and using the same tools to get there! Let's not allow the unfortunate souls who slip (lets hope they return in this or some other gilgul) away and those blinded by secularism to knock us off course or to chip away at our fundamental underlying sense of Achdus!


 Jul 16, 2008 at 02:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Anonymous Says:
Anon 1:13 and balabusta, Kidnapping is very wrong, and this is what Gitty did to her daughter, SHE KIDNAPPED the daughter from the father, it's immoral and non ethical. and the father used his equal rights to act accordingly, fair deal!

two wrongs do not make a right! first of all the article does not say that she kidnapped her. it says that she moved out of kj with the girl. that does not sound like kidnapping or criminal activity. BUT EVEN IF SHE DID KIDNAP THE CHILD (as opposed to moving out on her own with the family knowing where she is which doesnt sound to me like kidnaping) HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY KJ KIDNAPING HER BACK? just because she did it doesnt make them entitled to do it! this is yet one more example of how certain groups have no respect for the law and think they are above the law. they should have gone to the courts to get the child back. not commit a crime and kidnap her. even though i am shocked i am still not surprised. you have to expect this activity from KJ.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 02:10 PM Anonymous Says:

So True!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! every word if it


 Jul 16, 2008 at 02:18 PM bigwheeel Says:

This "Editorial" by the writer/s of VIN is superb!!! It is objective, well-written and is a good retort for that hatchet-job done by a souleless, bigot!!! Also, it (the VIN article) sums up the current state of affairs in the Orthodox community! (all settlements)


 Jul 16, 2008 at 02:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Tootired and balabusta 1:44:tootired- I don't see it either. She is not mocking. She is educating the public that reads NY Mag about the lives of the ultra orthodox and KJ community.
as far as Taharat Hamishpacha, from what I read she displayed her own opinion on the matter which was less than respectful.

Educating the public that this is our way of living? Oh really? I'm also a frum orthodox jew, and I don't agree with her for one minute. Life is beautiful and its the way you take it. The way she's writing is so shameful, and makes it sound more like a horror life.

Taharat Hamishpacha, from what I read she displayed her own opinion on the matter which was less than respectful.

Too tired - you call this less than respectful? What kind of language do you consider less than respectful?? This is taking the whole idea and mocking it completely. Besides for the fact that halacha is halacha, and it's not a matter of opinion. If you don't feel like living up to halacha is another story.

And if she wasnt taught these halachas the right way, then this is a separate issue. Gives no reason for New York Magazine to mock, and yes mock the torah and halachas.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 02:20 PM tootired Says:

Sorry, I have read all of the comments blasting her as well as the MAG (some of them hysterical) and I am unconvinced a smear job took place. I think people like to shoot the messenger so they can feel better. Its so much easier than dealing with the actual issues...

Rather here we have a tragic example of a troubled, sad and flawed individual who was probably mistreated and made (and continues to make)some bad choices. She needs professional & spiritual help. Most of all her poor little girl, what will be with her?
I just hope some sort of a safe compromise can be worked out. My heart goes out to everybody - including her ex, who is probably a decent guy.

Hopefully, this article opens our eyes to all those who are falling through the cracks. And we can hopefully help them BEFORE things like this happen. (Are there licensed therapists & psychologists in KJ?)


 Jul 16, 2008 at 02:20 PM Anonymous Says:

comments - arrow This would never happen in CHABAD, they know how to treat people with love and bring them back to yiddiskeit, SHAME on the mainstream chasiddim for dealing with her that way...

Anyone a Doctor in here....


 Jul 16, 2008 at 02:23 PM janos Says:

if u look a little closer in the article you will a lot of false statements just 2make jewish life look bad on friday night aron t"b does not walk with a kane to shul.....look 4 more & will find this is strictly a family dispute & every parent has a right 2do the most possible to gain custody and to 38 a mechallel shabos is considered a goy according to d rambam eating shrimp not going 2 mikva walking with shorts during nida & yichud is against Torah & G-d (also gay her lovely uncle)Not satmar not kj not yoely G who tried so hard & even got her Internet


 Jul 16, 2008 at 02:26 PM Jewish baby boy Says:

First of all her name is not Greenwald. Her ex husbands who is long remarried already name is greenwald. 2nd of all I know her personally and this girl is always high on drugs and when I say always I really mean it. She is a mentally disturbed person who is looking to blame anybody and everybody including Yidishkeit, God, Halacha, And KJ,
She can blame vead hatsnius all she wants it’s not their fault. There is vead hatsnieas, s all over the Jewish world including Williamsburg, BP, Monsey, Erets Yisroel E.T.C.
I know a lot of people that live in KJ have DVD Player and its not for porn, I know a lot of people that had problems with the vead and left kj nice and quite so if you wanna blame anyone just blame yourself.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 02:35 PM דוד Says:


(I don't see it either. She is not mocking. She is educating..ultra orthodox ...)

who needs her education ?
who is greenwald to educate ?

will she be the one that decides wHich halacha makes sence or dosnt?


חילול השם אין לה כפרה


 Jul 16, 2008 at 02:37 PM Shlomo Says:

There are problems in KJ for certain, but the NY Mag article was a hit piece, through and through. No magazine would dare publish an attack piece like that on a Muslim community, for example. The article was disgustingly one sided and I have very little sympathy for this "Gitty," who, by her own admission, snatched her own kid away from her husband before she was "snatched" back. I also highly doubt that it was "one joint" that made her flunk the drug test. A well balanced article might have had me a bit more sympathetic to Mr. Jacobson's argument, but his style was unprofessional and in general, a pathetic piece of journalism. If the magazine had any integrity whatsoever, they'd fire this Jacobson clown and get a real journalist in there.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 02:38 PM Shaul Boruch Says:

The article is clear - it was the husband that kidnapped the child and took her back to KJ. This is, sadly, typical behavior in the frum community. Rather than calling upon the courts to address the issues the husband took the law into his own hands. Definitely a strike against him.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 02:46 PM Big Mike Says:

Instead of attacking this poor lost lonely girl, let's take a look at ourselves, our community, even our ways of doing some things. This poor girl left KJ, yes, but in her opinion she was pushed out. That is something that we should not ignore. How many more children will we push away with our harshness, rabbosai?


 Jul 16, 2008 at 02:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Tootired says:Rather here we have a tragic example of a troubled, sad and flawed individual who was probably mistreated and made (and continues to make)some bad choices. She needs professional & spiritual help. Most of all her poor little girl, what will be with her?
I just hope some sort of a safe compromise can be worked out. My heart goes out to everybody - including her ex, who is probably a decent guy.

What you are saying now is 100% right, and action definitely has to take in act.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 02:58 PM Shaul Boruch Says:

Well said Big Mike. Too many people are worrying about yenem doing this, and yenem doing that. No one knows what went on between this couple, NO ONE. Now it is up to the courts to decide and that is how it should be.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 03:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Gitty, STOP BLAMING the KJ or orthodox jewry for your problems, THEY ARE NOT THE CAUSE OF YOUR PROBLEM, you need help like the other hundreds of kids that go of the derech, but dont tell me because of the rebbe, or because of taharos hamishpacha, or because some KJ people are on welfare.... you ended up the way you did, a druggie and worse.

I bet most people in the KJ dont even know who you are, they dont care, and you know what we are tired of hearing all the nonsense and excuses why kids go of the derech, you went off the derech, because you thought it will make you happy, or give you a better life, in the end you start blaming innocent people for your actions, YOU ARE TO BLAME YOURSELF !

There are thousands of kids that didnt have the kind of upringing they wanted to have, or the love from their parents they desperately needed -but they are smarter then that, they know while they can go off the derech - how hard is it to go of the derech?, it takes a little weed and boom, you dont need to study VERY HARD to go off the derech, - and those OTHER thousands of kids in your situation had the brains at least to know that they have 2 choices, either WORK ON THEMSELVES, ON THEIR MIDDOS, ON THEIR YETZER HORA, OR THE EVER TEMPTING SECULAR LIFE FULL OF SMUT and GET MARRIED and try to bring up a normal frum family, and when they leave this olem hasheker they have what to show for, - or do like yourself, and when they are out of money they start spewing dirt on orthodox jewry and the KJ people what a shame !

99% percent of those kids choose the better choice, you choose the second choice, and when you are caught and drowning in smut and have no where to turn, you will start the blaming process, like the guy who breaks into someones house and blames it that he thought its his own house, aint going to work.

You should go and ask every frum jew that was hurt by this article if they forgive you and we hope hashem will, because by the end of the day you are a pitty and you NEED HELP.

KJ people never did anything to you - nobody their cares if you were a shpitzel or you join the ramapo police department WHO CARES? but to come and blame taharos hashmipacha and others for your FAILURE, will only portait you as a loser for many years to come.

As far as I heard your ex remarried and is living a happy life, and as it stands now, it dosent seem to me you are fit to be a mother - let alone a mother to a child who is abused, and while you will become a old aging women, this article and photos will haunt your child the rest of her life, and for that your daughter is a pity.

At the moment you have hurt klal yisroel, and you desperately need help, hey if you didnt find happiness in the the toilet of the nyack bar, perhaps you can find it in the TORAH, so seek help, PERIOD.

You are old enough to be responsible for your own actions.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 03:02 PM balabusta Says:

I agree there may be some religiously off items in the article for those that do not know KJ and frumkeit but, I still think she is not mocking anything. I do not understand why KJ has a problem with a 4 year old girl singing.give me a break a child they are banning from singing. This article is her(Gitty's) perspective. No one (except for some of you where your rabbis or husbands)you what to feel about the halachot so then why are we criticizing? What about all the fraud ans sexual abuse that is committed by frum people? I also don't understand how last week rabbi's were banning newspapers in Walmart but, now people are reading this in NY Mag. Hypocritical maybe?


 Jul 16, 2008 at 03:02 PM CLASSMATE Says:







 Jul 16, 2008 at 03:10 PM Anonymous Says:

Shaul Boruch Says:
The article is clear - it was the husband that kidnapped the child and took her back to KJ. This is, sadly, typical behavior in the frum community. Rather than calling upon the courts to address the issues the husband took the law into his own hands. Definitely a strike against him

It's a "beferish'e Article."

As if every word in the article has to be believed. if that's the case why isn't the husband in jail for kidnapping, or why was he awarded custody of the child. I don't believe the Kidnapping part for a minute. It's just additional distortions by Gitty which wasn't followed up by the journalist.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 03:10 PM Big Mike Says:

classmate: Its exactly that type of nastiness that you show in your comment that drives people away from Yiddishkeit.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 03:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Come on now lets tell it as it is -her own storey has too many contradictions. It’s sad that the fact that she went and did drugs (now that a storey worth getting into) is completely unnoticed like she takes no responsibility for that. The bedroom info is far from the truth. The strong women in KJ another lie. The men control the house another lie. Men who don’t have to make another tough decision in their life just more lies. If anything she changed. When they got married they both where adults and implied/ agreed to certain terms in their marriage namely religion. If you have liberal beliefs then you allow the right for religious freedom therefore you have to feel for the husband who did not back out of the original premise and now is getting the raw end of the deal. She is not even the trail blazer her storey claims that she has a brother that is educated and left KJ. A child could see though this and New York magazine should have not have published this. What credibility dose this woman have that her view would be published is it the fact she has no education, no job, did drugs and is in a bitter custody battle? As a fellow Jew I wish you only the best and I hope you find happiness without spewing lies and hatred.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 03:35 PM To tootired and Shaul Boruch Says:

to tootired:

point 1 -- you may have read the taharas hamishpacha laws bashing as "just her opinion" but based on comments I read regarding that issue most readers read it as "outright absurd jewish laws", and not someones opinions on the laws

point 2 --- you may be right about her not having been taught the beauty of the dinim, But I know that in my community (not KJ) that beauty is stressed, regularly. maybey KJ should start teaching that way too.

to Boruch Sholom:

it is obvious from the article that the courts had no problem with what the father of the child did, as they felt that the child was in better care in his hands (otherwise, he'd have been forced to return her to the mother)


 Jul 16, 2008 at 03:41 PM Anonymous Says:

What's her name? She is obvously sich and needs a refua shlemah! (Seriously)


 Jul 16, 2008 at 03:48 PM Anonymous Says:

KJ did not "Kidnap" the child, it was a lie made up by Gitty. And she mocked the Jewish religion in many ways, that even hurt me the way she shpoke about several Halachos, especially Taharos Mishpacha. And she everything she said was lies, from here "arranged marriage" to only smoking 1 joint.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 03:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Lets stop with all nonsense, and arguing. The point is that we should all look to improve ourselves, and our family. Make our homes a happy, and loving environment. It was obvoisly bashert for this article to get to the Jewish Community, and is a sign for all of Klal Yisroel to improve and seek to help one another. It doesn't matter whos at fault, the point is that every day precious jewish neshamas are being dragged away from Yiddishkeit,and nebuch falling terribly. We need to act upon this, not argue over who's right and what's wrong. This is a singal from heavon that this world needs a Tikun. This woman and child of hers is only one amongst many other Yiddish kinderlach that are so torn away. They maybe chose this way of going, but are defintely hurt and broken neshamas which obviously brought them about to go off the derech. May we never feel this pain and never understand what this means, for the pain is unbearable.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 03:59 PM Anonymous Says:

too tired- You mention licenced therapists in KJ....Are you nuts? Life in KJ is like in an old European Shtetel. Oh well, plus the internet, and ladies dressing in the latest styles,(with make-up too) 'Couples' taking vacations. Young kids becoming engaged after 'speaking' to their prospective choson. Little girls with 'wow' pink shoes. Women who are very happily married. Women who are treated like queens by their husbands, and I can go on and on.....But people see 'only' what they want to see!!!!!!!


 Jul 16, 2008 at 04:01 PM Gules Says:

One mistake the mother is making by coming out with this story in such a fashion is that shes only ruining her daughters life this innocent child does not deserve this and this child will always be labeled with her mothers stories.

About her situation, whatever happened is done thats between her and her husband or rebelling against KJ but about the daughter no matter where shes coming from no judge would grant custody to the father without valid reasons (Example: Drug problems, Alcohol addiction, Instability, ACS involvement for neglecting the child or abuse etc.) by her telling her version and the magazine just writing out whatever they want does not justify her nor does it mean that shes telling everything that was actually going on.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 04:02 PM Max from Lawrence Says:

Anonymous Says
07-16-2008 - 3:01 PM




 Jul 16, 2008 at 04:07 PM Leah Says:

Anonymous Says
07-16-2008 - 3:01 PM
Your points were great!


 Jul 16, 2008 at 04:08 PM Max from Lawrence Says:


Can you tell us what kind of girl was Gittie in her younger years?
Was she different then her classmates?


 Jul 16, 2008 at 04:16 PM TST Says:

I, like Gitty, also grew up in Monroe. Since both my parents grew up with an education other than Satmar, I always felt out of place. I rebelled and dropped out of school. Now I am living in Brooklyn and am married to a Chasidish boy from a respected family. I could've ended up in the same boat as her, but under NO CIRCUMSTANCE would I have done what she did. This is something that her family and "friends" will never forget. But most importantly, her daughter will grow up and see what her mother did. I highly doubt her respect for her mom will grow.
I'm not saying Monroe is a wonderful place, or that it has wonderful people. I'm just saying that for the simple reason of putting up with me, they deserve respect. Now that I have settled down and "grown up" I adhere to the rules of conduct whenever I visit. In my own house, I do what I want, but- "When in Rome..."
Gitty has the right to do whatever her heart desires, but she has no right to force this so-called lifestyle of hers onto her daughter. What that poor 4yr old needs is support, love, and security. If Gitty feels she can give that to her, then Kol Hakovod...


 Jul 16, 2008 at 04:33 PM KJLIGHT Says:

Well i would like to add my two cents, We all have neshomas, and we all have evil inclinations.
Vad Haznious only looks to defeat the evil fine.
yet, they forget to work on the neshoma aspect their is always a fire burning in an individual we just need to learn how to ignite it in a large format..You can change a person alot faster, than threatening and hurting trust me it works i came back from where i was with this method, i was told how privileged i am to be born a jew slow and surely i my fire in me ignited the rest of me, and today i am so happy being areal frum yid.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 04:39 PM Anonymous Says:

We agree with the post that stated be very careful before calling action "anti semitic".

It's amazing how people who never lived through ww2 are experts on anti semitism! We should never know what the people who lived through Germany's hell was all about.

Many people in todays generation are a bunch of spoiled brats. The minute a jew gets a ticket you call the officer that wrote the ticket reshoim.

The minute somebody writes an article about us that has valid points we cringe because we hate the truth and so what do we do we then call the author an anti semite and someone who hates religion.

These dumb arguments will never win us anything and never get people to look at us in a good light. One of the reason why we are having all these problems these days is because we act extremely arrogant. We don't listen to authority, we don't listen to our parents, we don't listen to rabanim, we don't listen to anyone. We think we know it all. Just remember that most people are good people and maybe 3% of the population are horrible people or just crooks.

How about staying with positive people and rabanim who give us chizuk? How about stop worrying what people are writing about us?

If we acted like mentchen we would not have negative articles written about us.

It just seems that people here are always looking at the negative and we get caught up in this garbage. Lets stay positive. There is more beuty to yidishkeit when we just keep the mitzvos simple and stop chumarizing everything in life.

Also remember that yidishkeit is not a business it's a religion.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 04:44 PM Anonymous Says:

To Shaul baruch and other commentators.


Fact: the wife did kidnap the kid away from the father, against the law and against morality.

fact: the father had all the rights to bring his daughter back to HER home.

Fact: the father did go to court to claim his custody on the child. and BTW in the court system the party holding on custody on the child at present is stronger, thats why he didn't wait for the courts 2-3 year battle to see his daughter once again, after the mother kidnapped the kid away from the distraught father, he just picked her up and brought her back home.

Fact: after the mother kidnapped the kid, she did not allow the father to visit or see the baby, she was running around and hiding, so the father shouldn't be able to see his sweet daughter, (he did not act accordingly when he did arrange for the mother visitation).


 Jul 16, 2008 at 04:46 PM Shaul Boruch Says:

The reality is that there is a little bit of Gitty in all of us. She is one of ours, whether we like what she does or not. What some people have written here is absolute justification for where this heilige neshomo is in her life right now. She deserves our support as much, and not less than her child, and her husband for that matter. Anything that can be litigated can be negotiated if only reason and objectivity conquer emotions and the holier than thou attitude that pervades the community.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 04:49 PM Toby Says:

To Anonymous
07-16-2008 - 4:39 PM

Great point

Did you find anything possitive in Greenwalds artilcle?
Is there any way to justify laughing at Tahart hamishpacha?

Shame on Greenwald!


 Jul 16, 2008 at 04:52 PM Shaul Boruch Says:

Neither is justified in kidnapping. What the father proved is that the child is a trophy, and not a human being. He sacrificed the child's needs for his own agenda. That's a FACT. If he felt the mother had kidnapped the child he should have gone to court and called upon duly constituted authority to address the issue. Grabbing the child off the street is the act of a lowlife.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 05:00 PM Anonymous Says:

I know her personaly and it sounds like she is realy mixed up with her mind, it just a simple prolbem for a girl that thinks that being on the other side of the aisle is a better place, beleive me if you grow up frum and Tzniusdig, then you dont need all this , you are happy with your husband and fmaily, but if you have some other things missing (like seichel), then YES you will look for other things, so basicaly SHAME on her for bashing the torah and mitzvos and for ruining hers and Yoelis life...........and the little girls life, it will never be the same, she has now nothing better.............only like other posters commented, she has now some chips and shrimps..............SHAME ON YOU, we are proud women and we love who we are and what we do. If somebody dosent like it there are still other ways till there, you can still be a feine ehrliche yiddishe tochter without like some call it "pressure"..............So here we are with a stupid girl a dropout...........just ignore her and go on with your life.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 05:11 PM Enough Says:

How do you know that the dinim were not taught b'derech kovod? Were you in the class?
How is it that a very large community is living al taharas ha'kodesh and you are not aware of this.
How can you so very hate the Satmar community? When you suddenly feel very unwell, who do you call? Hatzolah maybe? Its Satmar. Should you be in a hospital with a teif kitchen, who might show up? Satmar Bikur Cholim!
Regarding kiruv out there, who does the most, QUIETLY, for the teimanim. SATMAR IT IS!
The list is endless.
Please shut up so that we dont see your true colors. Wether you are non-observant or from the u'mos ha'olam, put a lid on it.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 05:19 PM R.W Says:

wow you hit the point, loved what you wrote, i agree with every factor you wrote there.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 05:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Shaul Boruch Says:
Neither is justified in kidnapping. What the father proved is that the child is a trophy, and not a human being. He sacrificed the child's needs for his own agenda. That's a FACT. If he felt the mother had kidnapped the child he should have gone to court and called upon duly constituted authority to address the issue. Grabbing the child off the street is the act of a lowlife.

Who said she was kidnapped? Gitty???? Yoel just found his daughter and took her home....

Legally, both parents have legal custody... And the article never stated that Gitty received sole custody...


 Jul 16, 2008 at 06:05 PM Anonymous Says:

without even reading the New Yorker article the editors of Vos iz neias in their response to the New Yorker article contradict themselves by first blasting the article and then giving it validation claiming thier are issues and symptoms "especially the vaad hatznius" plagueing KJ. Do you agree or disagree? Or do you agree but just don't like the extent in which KJ is portrayed? The most telling part of the Vos iz Neias response is "But there are issues everywhere". Does the fact that their are issues everywhere excuse the issues in KJ? Your response gave the article more validation and a notion of truth. I will now go and read the New Yorker article.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 06:31 PM Anonymous Says:

everyone should daven for this girl. she is obviously sick. daven for her daughter, as well.

i feel bad for her ex-husband. this article is disugsting... soo sensational and over-dramatized. the people of KJ are nice, happy and mind their own business. don't like it? get out. big deal. she's exacerbating a custody battle into a news sensation.

i wonder who led her to go to the new yorker to publish her story? someone must be leading her in the wrong direction, how else would she be able to get her story published here? does she think this will help her?

she is seriously sick in the head.

her daughter is going to grow up a mess. poor girl.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 06:39 PM too tired Says:

"...So here we are with a stupid girl a dropout just ignore her and go on with your life.

WOW! now thats the Jewish way, throw her away like a piece of garbage!


 Jul 16, 2008 at 06:46 PM Jay Fried Says:

Dear VIN editor & Dear readers …

First comes first and VIN you deserve lots of credit for having the courage to respond to that biased one sided vicious article…

But when reading your editorial in particular I quote “If there is one sole reason for Gitty and others like her to jump the ship of faith, it is the Vaad HaTznius” one must wonder..
How did you VIN figure out the reason behind Gitty’s and other like her jumping of the ship? taking a cheap shot at a group.. that yes I most say.. ) to some extent, is a problem (where ever they exist.. Yet surely saved quite a few venerable young girls and boys from sexual predators, that any community in the universe has unfortunately no shortage of them.. and surely saving these youngsters from permanent mental / emotional / spiritual damage..
Let me ask you Honorable Editor “what credentials / expertise do you have in this or any other field that give you the credibility to draw that conclusion” ?

They jumped ship largely because their cure upbringing and their environment is not a very healthy one .. whether like in Gitty’s and others, the instability in the family.. or like in others, being bullied as a child, and so on..

Shame on you VIN for mastering a immature finger pointing!
more extreme then Gitty herself. Calling for their death?
and in bold lettering? what a shame!

Gitty stated a lot of reasons why she left, and among them .. Internet .. Rabbi to look at her panty .. she takes issue even with keeping shabbos.. everything but, vaad hatznius! When taking about the Vaad, She was just making the point that we have this fanatic life style..

Vaad Hatznius as a problem as they are, they always existed and for their kehilos and Rebbes they are important group, who, as stated above, in principal, has to keep a close eye on those predators .. all the other things they do, is on their own with no authority, (you cant have it all) and no one has to agree with it, or moreover should publicly condemn it! But.. No one and I will repeat .. no one .. has replacement for this group and VIN has no business of calling for their death! (they have never done anything against the law more then misdemeanors, as I’m sure this dropout would long ago press charges.. and disable their operation…and if they do .. get the individual.. lock him up)

VIN, you seem to agree that we need this organization. You suggest we reinvent it under a professional group.. I wonder.. Who wants to do what they do? And if there is one who wants to do that, why .. why .. and why did they never just DO IT ??? O, and by the way, can you name any other community in the world that has such an organization like what you are dreaming to have? And VIN, what expertise do you have in this or any other field that give you the credibility to draw the lines how to run such an organization? They are dirty and their work is dirty.. and no one wants to do that in the way you want it! And they still do ‘some’ good and important work for their respective Kehilah!

We have to keep on criticizing them for their wrong doings! But no one can point a finger at them for a run-a-way kid.. and that my point..

Within regards’ to the custody battle.. let them battle it on their own with each of them getting support from where ever each could, and may God protect this poor little child, that hopefully will not go in her mothers foot steps of drugs .. gangs .. boys .. smoke .. not working .. and washing her dirty laundry all over the media for a little attention or a few bucks she might get ..

And to you Gitty and to those in your boat.. Hashem gave you the gift of freedom of choice “good or bad” we all have our hardships in life and we all make choices .. You are independent and grown up .. keep on making your own choices as you have until now, however take reasonability for them! And be happy about it .. or if you are not, simply make another choice .. until you find the happiness and accomplished feeling most of us have, that you lack so much..

You have the right to live the way you find it GOOD for you .. but remember .. you will bear the consequence as well .. and that is .. if good for you means living an unreligious life .. eating stew fish that you never new existed, in a non kosher Williamsburg Bridge restaurant, or driving/riding a car on Shabbos.. that is ok (for you) .. but don’t expect that the other partner in this Childs life will allow you to make that choice for HIS child without a fight just because you have the title MOTHER ..

Gitty, with the title mother, besides being able to feed / dress / play with your child, comes a huge responsibility.. and that responsibility is called “judgment and stability”, to be able to provide a healthy nurture and un-confrontational upbringing to a young child like Esther Miriam.. and now that you and your ex are not together .. understand that the one who will be found by the NON JEWISH judge to have more and better of it, will be the one who will get to make choices for this little kid.. without any guaranty that the kid will ultimately adopt to it .. but never the less give it the best shot, as every decent parent does..
Finally Gitty, I cant agree more with the editor and repeat to you the better part of his comment “we say that the answer is not out there. It’s inside.”

And to you Esther Miriam .. you need a lot of Rachmim just to be a normal and mentally stable child .. never mind religious or non religious .. my promises to you is .. I will keep your name Esther Miriam bas Gittel in my prayers all the time… and may hashem have rachmunes on you and your future…


 Jul 16, 2008 at 06:49 PM Anonymous Says:

just becuase right now shes not the typical frum satmare girl doesnt mean shes not jewish. and we should care for her. my heart goes out to her, her situation no human being should have to go through this. lets live and let live.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 06:51 PM Anonymous Says:

I agree this much

perverts who call themselves the Vaad HaTznius. Neither trained in civil service nor licensed in any of the mental-health arts, this nameless, faceless goon squad perpetrates the vilest of home invasions, acts of intimidation and utter lack of classic Jewish ‘mentchlichkeit’ in their misguided Mafia tactics in a war long lost.

It is high time for the death of the Vaad HaTznius as we now know it—and its radical rebirth as a professional, sensitive organization complete with the currently-lacking office, phone number and credentials. If there is one sole reason for Gitty and others like her to jump the ship of faith, it is the Vaad HaTznius.

There is no denying that the Vaad HaTznius pushed her over the edge. So how about KJ. Clean up your act!


 Jul 16, 2008 at 06:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Shaul boruch said: Grabbing the child off the street is the act of a lowlife.

well this is exactly what Gitty did, so maybe you have the courtesy and call her this way. and if you think grabbing the child off the street is wrong, he had his wife teach him the lesson how to.. she gave him the way to do it.

interesting, you see all negative on the father, and put wrong justification on the rebellious (drug addict) mother's negative acts. common, straighten yourself out.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 06:59 PM Anonymous Says:

Anon 6:51:

perverts who call themselves the Vaad HaTznius. Neither trained in civil service nor licensed in any of the mental-health arts, this nameless, faceless goon squad perpetrates the vilest of home invasions, acts of intimidation and utter lack of classic Jewish ‘mentchlichkeit’ in their misguided Mafia tactics in a war long lost.

It is high time for the death of the Vaad HaTznius as we now know it—and its radical rebirth as a professional, sensitive organization complete with the currently-lacking office, phone number and credentials. If there is one sole reason for Gitty and others like her to jump the ship of faith, it is the Vaad HaTznius.

so lets shmooz, if there are perverts and molesters you better take care of them, don't shove it under the carpet. when Vaad Hatznius is disciplining and washing out the molesters and putting them in place you all big mouths come oit and bash them, so please choose one of the 2, either you leave alone all the sickos and let them molest and ruin the kids lives, or you support vaad hatznius, take your pick.

By the way, VH does NOT make home invasions, sounds as true as the NYMAG story, don't act silly.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 07:03 PM Anonymous Says:

anonymous 6:49 says: "just becuase right now shes not the typical frum satmare girl doesnt mean shes not jewish. and we should care for her. my heart goes out to her, her situation no human being should have to go through this. lets live and let live."

NO! not because she is not Satmar, she dropped her religion completely, and although my heart goes out for her as well, no job, no life, no nothing. but what she did with her interview full of lies and chillul hashem with the NYMAG is ridiculous and unforgivable, and if you don't see anything wrong with it, your in poor shape yourself.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 07:08 PM Anonymous Says:

The point of bashing The Vaad Hatznios, is very right, because the people who run it are molesters themselves, and its no secret how they deal with issue with woman.

what right does the 'Vaad' have to interrogate woman, girls, boys as to what type of activities they do, the guys who run the vaad are plain and simple perverts.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 07:50 PM Anonymous Says:

The sickos are the Vaad HaTznios!!! Don't you get it. They think they are making a full Viduy by attacking others.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 07:50 PM CPR Says:

The article starts with a classic kidnapping and only at the last page you find out that it's about a drugaddict who wasn't given custody by the court.
It begs the question if he snatched the child after she lost custody at bes din and lehavdil family court
The whole article is based on lies, she and her husband who 'met' (did I say 'mate'?) before and after becoming engaged, now she is saying she never met him, just saw him from a window
Not to mention that we all know it's against halacha and tradition even at the frimsteh chasidim to marry someone you didn't meet


 Jul 16, 2008 at 07:57 PM CPR Says:

I resent thos VH people, but this article has nothing to do with VH
It's about a divorce and child custody battle, where the father was granted temporary custody, over a mother that is unstable, uneducated, jobless, clueless
I can't see this article (with her trying to temper with her drug test etc.) ever help her with all this


 Jul 16, 2008 at 07:57 PM m Says:

Chazal were very clear - halachiclly one is only allowed to accept a chumra on oneself and not impose it on others - thus these vaad hatzniut are violating halacha.
Also one is not allowed to be too strict (impose chumrahs) on ones wife and children lest she demand a divorce.
Also how can the vaad hatzniut do home invasions and physical assaults without the community calling the police - they are not allowed to violate your rights without repercussions - it is not being a "moser" to protect yourself and your family from criminal activity.
Being an incorporated village is not an exemption from constitutional law or true halacha.
For tjose wondering how come we have so many "kids at risk" and "adults at risk" and "marriages at risk" - humrah - the second half of the word is "rah".
Were are the Rabbanim and how can they allow this violation of halacha??


 Jul 16, 2008 at 08:13 PM Babishka Says:

Anon @12:52



First of all please do not use all caps, mir zenen nit kein blinde. Tzvaytens, Malkie Schwartz was given a huge amount of money from her secular grandmother to leave Yiddishkeit and the grandmother also supports the tax-free foundation which maintains Malkie Schwartz so she doesn't have to work and the grandmother gets a tax break.

I am a BT, married to a BT and our sons have married into the highest ranks of chassidishe society, on the basis of their middos and their Torah learning. I challenge the NY magazine to write an article about me and my family.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 08:21 PM Babishka Says:

I forgot to add, sometimes snooty people will make a shidduch with a less-than-perfect yichus if that person has a ton of money. I wish that was true in our case! No, my sons were chosen because of their middos & Torah 'cause we sure don't have the money!!


 Jul 16, 2008 at 08:23 PM Anonymous Says:

A community with an incredibly restrictive lifestyle has to expect that some within it will not be able to tolerate that lifestyle. The question is, at what point does the community draw a line at the chumrahs? Why is it that some Orthodox communities allow women to drive, allow men to wear more "modern" clothing (ties, colorful shirts), allow boys and girls to talk with one another, etc., and yet still maintain a Torah-true lifestyle? Must KJ pile on more and more chumrahs and s'yagim? How many young people might they lose in the future?

Also, for those who attack Gitty for not having a job....what type of education was she given in KJ? Certainly not one that prepared her for working in the outside world.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 08:31 PM Babishka Says:

Anon: Also, for those who attack Gitty for not having a job....what type of education was she given in KJ? Certainly not one that prepared her for working in the outside world.

Silly me, for thinking her drug addiction had something to do with it.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 08:37 PM Anonymous Says:

This is not about a woman not tolerating a lifestyle. This is not about women driving or boys talking to each other. This is not about chumros

This is about instability. This is about drug use. This is about having half naked pictures of one's daughter on the web with the mother in suggestive poses. Just because a person decides not to be frum does not mean they can act anti-social.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 08:59 PM anonymous Says:

I'll say this, she has a great lawyer. Schwartz will do anything allowed by the law to help his clients. He represented me in a very difficult case and his advise was always correct. He told me what to expect and the case went the way he told me it would. I can actually see him sitting with Gitty with a serious look telling her she's sunk. He's that open with his cliens and doesn't hesitate to tell them truth even if they don't want to hear it. He will get her the best deal she can get.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 09:05 PM Rabbi Lebovic Says:

I am wondering, what happend with our Yiden! She's mecharef umegadef not only our holy Torah with the basic halochois, but also Hashem himself. She's a meisis umeidiach, by turning away her daughter from jewishness. Yoely was obligated by Torah law, even to be mechalel shabos, to save his daughter. GEVALT! HOW CAN A YID DARE TO DEFEND HER, SUCH A ENNEMY OF HASHEM. Makes no difference wich circumstances led her to this stage. EIN TOIANIN LEMEISIS. We may have do Kriyah on this article!!!


 Jul 16, 2008 at 09:10 PM CPR Says:

If he's such a great lawyer she's screwed, as he told her point blank that if the test comes back positive her case is over


 Jul 16, 2008 at 09:22 PM Anonymous Says:


How many KJ women do you know who can hold down a job in a business other than one that her husband or other relative owns?


 Jul 16, 2008 at 09:24 PM bigwheeel Says:

Nothing personal [against the chief protagonist in this whole BRUHAHA, BUT...I predict that in a little while (months?, years?) we will experience the FLOP side of this saga, as opposed to the FLIP side, which we are witnessing now! The heroin(e) of our story will RETURN as [this time] a TRUE Baalas T'shuva!!! (and perhaps will go to the other end, and might expect others to forgive for her [past] sins....!!!


 Jul 16, 2008 at 09:32 PM Anonymous Says:

To Anonymous 8:38 PM---you may not think that this is not about chumrahs, but there are many others besides Gitty. When 4-year-old girls are told that it's ossur for them to wear pink shoes or to sing, there will be people who will be driven away. When boys in summer camp are told that it's ossur for them to play ball, then some will rebel.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 09:54 PM GOLEM Says:





 Jul 16, 2008 at 09:59 PM Anonymous Says:

You attack the messenger, but don't specify where his facts are wrong? How is he bigoted by writing what Gitty has to say. Are you saying her child wasnt taken from her? This story is not about the good deeds done by the community for community members. Satmar doesn't reach out the secular world; nost Hasidic sects dont. It's abotu awoman who didnt want to live a Satmar life and wanted her daugher freed from it.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:04 PM Anonymous Says:

What a great outlet to spew all your hatred of satmar!

Facts are:
* Her drug test came out positive. She SAYS she smoked a joint 2 months ago, that doesnt make it true.
* Civil court decided to give the father custody for now, due to her incompetency. That had nothing to do with religion
* Her concern about her daughter being a 2nd class citizen in her fathers home - kind of makes me think if she was abused and/or neglected as a kid, since she is a child for her mothers first marriage. (again, everything to do with child abuse and neglect, and individuals, not the community)
* Girls in Monroe learn English and typing, math, History, etc... She can't get a job because she probably cant pass a drug test


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:05 PM Gitty Says:

We are all in this plight together, G-D is shedding tears over this lost soul.
KJ, with all their issues for that matter, has nothing to do with this heartwrenching episode. It is the greatest manifestation of 'life in golus'. As we are now entering the mourning period for the Holy Temple let's all remember to pray for the Geula! And THAT will be the only solution to all problems.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:05 PM Anonymous Says:

So she couldn't take the misery of living a lifestyle like Saudi Muslim women have to bear. Funny how many people condemn what they do and justify the same when any Jewish group does it. Just because something is done in the name of Torah doesn't make it a decent way to live. Just because they call it Torah doesn't mean it's not indefensible zealotry and oppression.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:07 PM Babishka Says:


"How many KJ women do you know who can hold down a job in a business other than one that her husband or other relative owns?"

I do not know any KJ women, but according to my daughter there are a lot of Satmarka's where she works, infact she is probably one of the few at that gesheft who is not a Satmarka.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Since when is snatching a baby NOT considered kidnapping? Even by a parent?


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Her daughter was with her class @ the park when she was taken away!
The teacher who was hysterical, called the mom right away.
The mother CALMLY showed up who knows how long after she was called.
The teacher notices that something is "funny" with the mom (DRUGS) who responds calmly, it's ok, my husband txt me that e/t will b okay. I had run away with my daughter so they took her away.
Now that's a very loving, stable and caring mother!!!!!!!!


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:42 PM CPR Says:

'snatching' a baby is not considered 'kidnapping' if you are granted custody by the court, moron


 Jul 16, 2008 at 10:52 PM Anonymous and sickened by most of you self-proclaimed judges Says:

I love how people are saying that she will come around and how free speech is a "chilul hashem."

Why are many of you using the internet? According to KJ laws, you're looking at porn!!!!!

Re CPR: "snatching' a baby is not considered 'kidnapping' if you are granted custody by the court, moron"

With masks? Did you read the article? The courts came AFTER the fact.

"everyone should daven for this girl. she is obviously sick. daven for her daughter, as well."

And you, my friend, are obviously closeminded. I am a frum Jew, but because I, too, as a woman, wear pants, I'd be labeled as a bad Jew in this society.

I've been there, done that. Perhaps you should look outside and realize that casting judgments is the VERY reason why many of the religious Jews are no longer that frum/machmir anymore. And yes, we're blaming it on people like you who are making these judgments RIGHT NOW IN THESE BLOG COMMENTS.

This is why I don't like the Jewish community myself anymore. There are too many of you who think you can attack people for observing things differently and then calling them "sick" when they don't see eye to eye with you. THAT is a Chilul Hashem.


 Jul 16, 2008 at 11:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Anon 1015 asked a legit question. Your answer would of sufficed sans the last word in your post. Name calling was hardly called for. Maybe some anger management for you might be in order, as I feel you might have some rage.


 Jul 17, 2008 at 12:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Stop this NONSENSE.
Anonymous at 10:05, could you please rethink what you posted???
Do you, or the poster named Balabusta or other anonymous posters blasting KJ really know what kind of life it is there?
Well, I assume you don't.
Well come in and visit and make sure to bring along a chair in case you feel like falling when you see dozens of happy little girls with PINK shoes SINGING their merry little songs that they have learned in school.
You'll see differently kinds of dressed women who are happy and satisfied with their lives.

It was so painful to read how you compared this to a Muslim lifestyle. My goodness, You don't know a thing about KJ. If you think their way of dressing is oppressing, well guess what, the mens dress code is much stricter than the women.
What makes you compare their lifestyle to a Muslim lifestyle. These two shouldn't be in one sentence. It's only your ignorance about Monroe inhabitant's lifestlys or your belief in an article that is filled with lies that can make you write such a comparison.
I can't believe how hypocritical some people are here. They spew hatred on KJ when they themselves are not acting too much better.
Stop hating, start loving and then you'll see how much more we have in common than not.
Please stop believing all those lies and dirt in that article. Like the kidnapping and that she didn't know him before she married him (she knew him all too well) and the way marital lives are lead.
If you want to know the real truth, pick up the phone and invite yourself over or start your car and drive over. I know more than one family who will be ready and willing to show you how untrue the whole article is.
I'm ending with best wishes to everyone involved and that it's time to start loving and stop hating.
Kol Tov to all.


 Jul 17, 2008 at 12:55 AM Anonymous Says:

Any criticism of KJ is warranted. A community of people whose purpose is to be completely separate from the rest of the world, while siphoning the resources of those same people they are trying to escape from has no place in this country. While many might accuse me of being a self hating Jew, that cannot be further from the truth. As a Jew, I know that the way other Jews behave reflect on the entire global Jewish community. I simply want Jews to be perceived in the best light and this community just serves to embarrass Jews everywhere, especially because they are so visibly Jewish. There was a post that said that Goebbels would be proud of the NY mag's article. Well I will counter that much of the propaganda that was spread to discredit Jews (parasites, not trully a part of the country they live in, theives) is largely true of the lifestyles and mentality of the members of this community.


 Jul 17, 2008 at 02:13 AM KIDUSH HASHEM Says:

A bunch of lies ....KJ is not to far to drive over and check it out that's bs ofcourse you can't belong to the community if you don't dress modesty ..people have there happy lives and the judge did not grand custody for the father because he wants the child should be religious pick up the phone and ask anybody you know of KJ why they took away the child from the mother the father can't snatch the child just like that wake up people and hit your head how a writer can just write this article what a women told him without even considering checking out the story the paper takes whatever you print on it KJ is a beautiful for orthodox jews to live they have a lot of business people living there normal nice people its a beautiful big village and people are happy there they have a lot of organazations like Hatzolah Gemach hatzoolah Chaveirim Linas hatzedek Bikur choilim Refuah help line Yedidim you name it happens an accident on NY thruway or on RT 17 who is on the scene to help the voctims and who is runing from car to car that are stuck in the traffic waiting for the scene to clear with Cookies and water dosent matter if in the car are jews or not Guess Who ? The orthodox angles KJ Hasidim they are the best ..school bus with kids not jews are stuck who comes to help KJ Hasidim again they are the best people. Long live KJ you come to everybodys rescue God should bless you and Shame on you all that are bashing them


 Jul 17, 2008 at 02:20 AM Anonymous Says:

Loshen Horah everywhere!
Personal attacks against a woman most posters on here - I presume - have never met and do not know. The benefit of the doubt as is so often the case goes to the husband whom, I presume, most posters on here do not know either!

Gittle in a sense is a messenger of troubled waters and attention needs be paid to issues and attitudes that may very well be crying out for attention and healing.


 Jul 17, 2008 at 02:35 AM Anonymous Says:

I personally know of many very successful and very wealthy KJ women who are running their very own businesses as sole proprietors, and making tons of money.
Some of their husbands were learning in kollel and after many years they are helping their wives and not the other way around.
There are plenty of brilliant women, and they keep their successes quiet. Meanwhile they are also running households of at least a dozen people and doing this all quite well with lots of mental health. They are all very happily married, and are very savvy with lots of investments all over the world.
Some of them started out working for others right after high school, and then going out on their own and making it big time.
They are all laughing all the way to the bank. All it takes is a good idea.
One is in the ink/toner business. One is in a gift basket internet based business. One is in designer clothing distribution, making hundreds of thousands a month! One is in a commercial carpeting business. One is in a hat business, and one is in a dry goods business. What about all the shpitzel/sheitel machers? Shall I continue? This does not include those wives that "help" their husbands or other relatives....when in reality who is helping who? Most husbands rely on their wives to manage many aspects of their businesses.
And as far as the women who are simply great mothers and wives, they too are doing great! Their husbands are successful in their zechus! There is far more happiness than misery in KJ and whoever does not know that has not been there.


 Jul 17, 2008 at 08:17 AM Joe of texas Says:

Kudos to VIN for smashing the horrible article which is full of lies and hatered towards the beutiful comunity in monroe and all orthedox jews.

If this guy Mr. Jacobson [may his name be blotted out toghether whith all jew haters],as you rightly call him - estranged cousin of a fellow Jew, would be looking for "real facts" about the jewish life & married life as a orthhdox jew then why does he go and interview a girl that hooked up whith the outside not reguler world but the dirty world of drugs imodesty etc.

I had the chance of getting to know some guys from the monroe community that come here to Texas on buisnes a friend of mine a non jew once told me "i just can"t get over this ultra orthedox lifestyle, i wish my wife were to dress so elegant and so tastefull all the time, and i wish that I would treat my wife as well as those orthdox jews"
i as a modern orthdox jew hearing that from a non jew got a wake up call to REAL LIFE and got close to the chasidim and had the zechut to spend Shabbat with my wife in KJ all i can say is "THAT 99% OF THE WOMEN ARE MORE HAPPY THEN ANY WOMEN ON THIS PLANET" so Gitty wake up from your dream that the grass is green on the other side return to your beutiful community
J. from Texas


 Jul 17, 2008 at 08:42 AM Shaul Boruch Says:

What this blog post has proven, if anything, is that labels have no place in a Torah-true lifestyle. It is precisely this sinna, the chassidish versus the modernish, the fry, the black hat, etc... demonstrated here that is responsible for being meakeiv the geulah. This is much bigger than a domestic dispute. Gitty is everyone's responsibility.


 Jul 17, 2008 at 08:53 AM Rabbi Lebovic Says:

To 133. You should first read the book of Rabbi Falk about jewish woman's modesty, instead of blaming the jewish nation.


 Jul 17, 2008 at 09:05 AM Vesley Hillz Says:

The article had one point and that is to disparage an entire community. KNocking chasidim with colorful pictures sell. The mother, her name does not deserved to be mentioned, is a screwed up drug addict that is totally unfit to take care of her daughter. How can anyone have sympathy for this piece drek?

fyi- I am not chasidish I just hate when jews air out their dirty laundry in the media.


 Jul 17, 2008 at 09:40 AM anonymous Says:

Joe from Texas, somehow I have the feeling that you are a fake phony fraud. You are a chasid from the tri state area. People down in Texas have a good education and the first thing they know is how to spell. You obviously cant spell because you are a product from the chasidishe school system and you are trying to stick up for this secluded idiotic lifestyle of the hasids


 Jul 17, 2008 at 09:42 AM Anon Says:

Joe from Texas,
You've met 100 percent of the KJ women to know 99 percent are happy? And if they weren't happy with their lives (multiple babies by the time they are 25 and little income and no say on their lives) would they tell you, a man who is not their husband? What's the penalty in KG other extreme religious groups (not just Jewish) for breaking with the status quo or thinking outside the box? Yes, they would tell you they have problems, right.


 Jul 17, 2008 at 09:44 AM Shaul Boruch Says:

So Joe from Texas, what town did you say you were from? You spell like you were educated in one of our fine chassidishe institutions.


 Jul 17, 2008 at 09:56 AM solomon7640 Says:

to Anonon 7/17/2008 2.20 am (did I see correct you wrote the post 2.20 am!!!!!!! so you wrote the post 2.20 am in the middle of the night? I see) writes and I quote PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST A WOMEN - , first read my first post annon 7/16/2008 3.01 pm, and are you kidding me? the NYMAG article is an attack on EVERY FRUM RELIGIOUS MAN - WOMEN - CHILD alive or not! and you are busy with a PERSONAL ATTACK AGAINST A WOMEN? I think by posting a comment 2.20 am gives it very clearly away WHO YOU ARE.... it can be either of a few things, but I wont say it, because there is a 1% chance I am wrong.

Babishka 7/16/2008 8.31 writes, and I quote WHAT TYPE OF EDUCATION WAS SHE GIVEN IN KJ? - you know babishka you are either a old digruntled person - couldnt pick a better name as babushka, but in fact you are most proberbly a LAZY BUM !!!!! anybody has a will and has a desire to get a education, will get it !!! aha you want to be educated without learning? I see so keep on dreaming.

There are thousands of frum educated people - and even from KJ - that went for a education, if you want it, and you are willing to work FOR IT you can get it, KJ is not responsible for YOUR education, and a person can get it ANYTIME, its never too late - and you can get it even if you wear a shtreimel, spodek, or bent down hat, its AVALIABLE FOR ANYBODY TO GET IT so get off your lazy bum, and GO GET A EDUCATION, dont blame KJ for it.

Who did not let Gitty get a education? she is young has a full life ahead of her, oh you want to blame KJ for not EDUCATING YOU - well if you dont like the KJ education you become older you get one! nobody will hold it back from you! and nobody CAN hold it back from you.

Bottom line, Gitty has mocked the religious way of life, that nobody has ever done before, she is responsible for her own actions, and at this stage of the game, I dont know whats for her to do, I am not a trained proffessional in the field, but one thing is for sure, she is a pity, and sometimes I think if only she could have been stopped and helped before the article was written, it would have been much easier for her to get back on track, unfortunately this article will haunt her KID for the rest of her life, and for that her DAUGHTER IS A PITY.

I keep reading in many posts about something VAD HATZNIOUS - VAD HAZNIOUS again and again, I dont live in KJ so I dont know who they are and what they do, but ONE THING IS FOR DEFINITE, if you live a NORMAL life even by the lowest standard I am one thousand percent sure you wont bump into VAD HATZNIOUS - period, its the same thing if you obey the laws the authorities wont be showing up at your door, if they DO SHOW UP, then you did something PERIOD.

Gitty had a chocie to get a education, instead as I said she chose the Nyack Bars Toilet, and now that she sunk, instead of getting HELP she attacks the frum society, and I wish someone could have told her that by this article you wont get a job, or an education etc., those are things you have to earn, its not available off the apple tree to be taken easily.

Oh before I forget many people get divorced, unfortunately, and many people stay married for the sake of their family, and they work on their relationship, its not easy, but they dont just dump it and leave, and the NYMAG article is LIVING PROOF that when you leave the fold, you can blame the entire world for your failures, it will NEVER get you anywhere !!!


 Jul 17, 2008 at 10:04 AM Anonymous Says:

Joe from Texas,

You mean Yoel From Monroe, right?


 Jul 17, 2008 at 10:15 AM A Yid and PROUD Says:

I just finished reading the article. I must say this is the most one-sided anti Chossid biased article I've EVER seen in my life.

The cheap shots Jacobson takes on Satmar and Chassidus seems to have been picked up in the sewer blogs of the Herald Record and The Journal News.

I feel terrible for Gitty. And I can certainly feel her pain as there does seem to be a big problem in most Chassidishe communities in dealing with these troubled youngters.

However, to take her sad story and to try and sensationalize it as a major anti Kiryas Yoel agenda is pathetic at best.


 Jul 17, 2008 at 10:59 AM Leah Says:

Anon Says (multiple babies by the time they are 25 and little income and no say on their lives) would they tell you, a man who is not their husband? What's the penalty in KG other extreme religious groups (not just Jewish) for breaking with the status quo or thinking outside the box? Yes, they would tell you they have problems, right)

Having multiple children by the time you're 25 has got nothing to do with not being happy.And how many multiple of kids can you have already if you marry at the age 18 or 19. Having a big family has got ZERO to do with your happiness and feeling content as a Jewish Mother. I, who am a mother of multiple kids and am highly proud to be one - must admit I have a great, wonderful life. Children give you strengh to move on, their innocence helps you stuggle those bumps. Don't blame the multiple kids. If that is perhaps the problem, there are plenty of things to do to avoid this problem.
Secondly, regarding the little income. Firstly, this has got nothing to do with the Wife in the house. It is the mans burden to support his wife and family. Everything in life is how you take it. There are times you feel you need to discuss it when hardships come across, but defintitely not with NY Magazine.


 Jul 17, 2008 at 11:25 AM Anonymous Says:

Jay Fried

Great point. The name to keep in mind in your Tefillos would be Esther Miriam Bas Shterna Gittel


 Jul 17, 2008 at 01:11 PM Jay Says:

From Jay Fried "I will keep your name Esther Miriam bas Gittel in my prayers all the time… and may hashem have rachmunes on you and your future…"

Her full name is Esther Miriam bas Shterna Gittel.


 Jul 17, 2008 at 01:17 PM balabusta Says:

shaul buruch 07-17-2008 - 8:42 AM
I agree with you. I read the many comments after my last post. This story about a messed up girl leaving KJ to go "off the derech" got more comments than the 2 soldiers that were murdered defending Israel our home land. It shows me where our minds are this day and age. There is such a hatred between the Jewish world and it's mainly chasidish ultra orthodox vs modern orthodox and conservadox. Back in my day(80-90's) it was "SY" syrian vs "JDUB" Ashkenazi. That was understandable because each has it's own minhagim. This hatred between chasidish and modern isn't understandable. Who cares what a person looks like, dresses like because a Yid is a Yid. Do you think in Germany they cared before they killed you if you dressed all covered up and chasidish or modern? No- because a Yid to them was a yid.
What happened to midot, honesty (not stealing from the gov't when you can work) shalom bein adam l'chaveio and belief in one G-d. That is how we will bring mashiach.


 Jul 17, 2008 at 01:41 PM anonymous Says:


to gitty

hashem will always take you back no matter when and why ,come back and turn this in to a kiddush hashem so all those other messed up kids can use you as a positive example instead of a negative one .

gittele go to the forest in vein dich ois and youll fell better. hashem is waiting for your tears (he's listens to all yiddishe kinderlech)

its not to late .


 Jul 17, 2008 at 02:10 PM Anonymous Says:

There are a number points coming up repeatedly that I feel need addressing.

1-The child was kidnapped by masked goons from KJ- The father was awarded custody of the child. She was taken by Gitty on one of her visits and not returned. Knowing that he is dealing with an unbalanced person he took her back.
Do you in all honesty believe that if he would have kidnapped her, with a mask no less, he would not have been in jail?

2-KJ girls lead a restricted, medieval lifestyle-
a. KJ girls wear colored shoes,
b. They play with dolls-maybe not Barbie-but dolls nevertheless.
c.They enjoy having fun and have lots of it.
d. They are pleasant conversationalists as you'd be pleasantly surprised to see if you gave them a chance.

3-The KJ population is being fed superstitious and fallacious lies about facts in our universe. KJ girls do not believe starts are mere sparks in a scrim, They know how to read and speak a respectable english,if they pay attention in class,as I highly doubt Gitty did. They definitely get a well rounded education- that's a fact to which I can testify myself since I taught in their school a number of years.

4. Gitty is the ultimate authority on the unfortunate saga being played out- If you'll only read the article closely you'll come across plenty of very transparent lies.
A. KJ individuals do not shop in Walmart- head to the nearest Walmart and you'll see them in droves.
B. Yoely is one of those "hassidic extremists"- Yoely did not declare walmart off limits since he likes shopping there himself. A boy from KJ who shaves would not marry a girl who "saw him from a window". If you look up "Yoely Greenwald" at OnlySimchas.com you'll see that his current wife does not look at all like a Satmar girl.
C.Satmars have a problem with looking good. If you'd take a look at satmar girls you'd see what good looks are. Modest and ugly have no connection to each other. I challenge you to visit any Monroe home and see if there's no mirror there.
D.Surprise! there are birthday parties in KJ, I know because I attended one myself.
E.Women in Monroe do not sing? Have you ever attended the highly professional performances the Sixth and Eleventh grade put on every year. I did, and there were a number of heartwarming melodies, beautifully sung.

Give the article another read-through and I'm sure you'll come up with some of your own.

5. Gitty is stuck in a dead end life because Monroe did not provide her with a decent education-
Gitty's out of there for quite a while already, why hasn't she gotten an education by now? Quite a few KJ girls have gotten their degrees while she slings mud.
She goes out for dinner, has an extensive wardrobe,as seen in the published photos, frequents bars for drinks, has time to kill at a pool, and cries she doesn't have money. What type of person does that add up to?

Irresponsible maybe?


 Jul 17, 2008 at 02:52 PM Anonymous Says:

"Her full name is Esther Miriam bas Shterna Gittel"

Don't forget to daven for a refuah shelayma for the mom "Shterna Gittel bas Devorah".


 Jul 17, 2008 at 03:47 PM Just Wondering Says:

The father was awarded custody by a RABBINICAL COURT - that's not binding in the secular world so yes it was a kidnapping; he didn't have custody.
"The results of most beth din arbitrations are accepted in civil court, but judgments in child-custody cases are not binding."

For anyone to say she's a drug addict is silly. Many people - including the ultra religious - use drugs, by the way, and visit other women and commit crimes.

Lets not be disengenuous with the facts.. The custody case is in the secular court.


 Jul 17, 2008 at 03:57 PM cpr Says:

no he has been awarded custody by th e family court


 Jul 17, 2008 at 04:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Whats sad about all of this is that these flaws in our communities will only make more and more teens and adults more disgruntled about living a toraidika life the way its supposed to.The article sheds an unfortunate perception on KJ and all frum communities as a whole.As a frum person we can sort out the negative from that article but to the naked eye you won't and u can't call it anti semetic.What we as frum yidden do need to learn from this is , we are not dealing with people the way our parents and grandparents did.#1 by not excepting your neighbors and judging your immediate peers as less frum or not as stringent in their frumkeit will only destroy klal yisroel! There is a way to deal with others who may not fit the mold perfectly acting in a arrogant and negative way only pushes people away,i'm sure a loving and a more caring approach should be implemented between ourselves. Look at the beautiful community of Lakewood N.J. Due to either a lack of leadership or outright chutzpa ,individuals in that town have ignited a "sinas chinum"campaign that has made the"
"Eir hatoirah "of the whole world also known as the city of rampant "sinas chinum lechol hadeiois"hundreds of families affected by individuals who infect their surroundings with their disease combination of Sinas chinum, "gaiva"low self esteem ,no confidence,and lack of hadracha ,all stemming from boredom with no goals, and a lack of the concept of loshon horah and ahhavas yisroel.All of this within a city that has so many chessed organizations,a kollel with 5000 registered talmidim,a world class mashgiach who can't openly express his true feelings on todays sorry sad state of frum life.In eretz yisroel this chutzpah has been going on for much longer too and it has affected many more frum people there too.As the frum worlds of chassidim,yeshvish/litvish become more of one community, the pitfils and unaddressed negative problems in KJ will be repeated in all frum communities .NOW is the time to take a look in the mirror and be honest with ourselves and start listening to all the cries of help that we chose to ignore and sweep under the rug for to long.Mayw
we be zoicha to win this battle with siyata dishmaya.


 Jul 17, 2008 at 06:36 PM Joe of texas Says:

Exuse me do you need my address


 Jul 17, 2008 at 06:47 PM Sincere Heart Says:

It seems to me that both sides have missed the point...KJ against Gitty...Gitty against KJ...
How very sad! Everyone is on AUTOMATIC...conditioned...this whole business is EXACTLY what war is about...Jews against Jews...now we have finally reached our lowest point...I'm so sad for ALL of you, for us all...my heart cries. Let G-D be the judge...and we should all go about the real BUSINESS of what it's all about...our hearts, compassion & LOVE!


 Jul 17, 2008 at 09:29 PM Anonymous Says:

To Joe from TX. You should really use spellcheck before posting. Your spelling is atrocious - it's not hard to believe that you live in TX but I doubt you actually grew up in TX. I don't think you would have made it through any TX school with such bad grammar and spelling.


 Jul 17, 2008 at 10:56 PM Anonymous Says:

I know Gitty from the past. There are not too many grains of truth in the article. You gotta be gullible enough to believe half of it.


 Jul 18, 2008 at 04:35 AM crazy Says:

i know gitty she had a mixed up life not only @ home but she was sent to 2 schools even that alone is unstable


 Jul 18, 2008 at 03:12 PM Midwest Yid Says:

The original article was very biased and hateful. He might as well said that all Hassids smell, too. Okay, some do...ha ha, third day shobbos/yom tov for sure. Seriously, this girl ahs problems, it is a shame, but do you REALLY think this child is better off with her than the father? Seriously, that is a no brainer. My daughter goes to a Chassishe Basi Yaakov type school as ti is hte inly one in town. She does not like some asp[ects of it, but is also taking math tutoring, doing a summer internship at the local Jewish community newspaper, and the like. But I will tell you that she bridles at hte mussar shoved at her. Some people just have no clue. Although, all in all it is about the family and how they raise their children. Do you REALLY think that Gitty's mother is all that great a parent as well. Hippies are hippies.


 Jul 18, 2008 at 07:22 PM CCJ Says:

For the record, I am a chassidic tax-paying, self-educated (in "self-educated" I mean that like all other non-elitist segments of society who are "free" to pursue education-who owes whom a college education?) professional and highly productive frum woman in Williamsburg, no less. And I know Monroe well. And almost all of what Gitty portrays is untrue. Very little of it is mere exageration.

Lets put Gitty's personal issues aside here.

What is appalling is NYMAG's outrageous affront to a community; a personal attack against a people!

Why do they need a drug-addict, wayward adult (forget un-frum for now -- she is plainly unstable.) who hasnt yet grown up to spew venom and hatred and infacts in radical First-Amendment-like fashion - let them come forth with front-page coverage adn say it like it is: hatred, ANTISEMITISM, can't--tolerate-their-beliefs, self-serving riteousnes, better-than-thou agenda.

Yes, it is. I read plenty and G-d forbid the Muslims would get this type of coverage! (Hey-anyone notice the discrepancy between the irony and hypocricy of Muslims who make the WOMEN wear a hijab/veil but where the MEN go uncovered themselves - and the Chassidim who's men have their dress code with the women doing what they want as long as it is not outlandish or explicitly sexual?)

Contrary to what the article portrays, KJ women have a say in their lives and their marriage just as much or in some marriages, more than their husbands, and people shop at Walmart when and how they want, not just at sales. Mexicans and Germans like the Walmart sales, too, I bet. And marital relations are not a forced act, G-d forbid. The laws of Taharas Hamishpacha were created to foster more love and harmony in a relationship - and if its not working for you or anyone you know, take a deeper look: perhaps something else is wrong. Halachos were not meant to make life miserable or difficult; attitudes and personality may.

[Lets not even talk about the HALACHA, not a chumrah or minhag, of the positive Torah commandment of a husband to give his wife PLEASURE in the bedroom - you read it right! Even KJ women are entitled to pleasure in this day adn age according to the Torah - read Ohel Rochel in Hebrew or English, available at Eichlers or other bookseller online, if you will.)

And having always lived a Chassidic lifestyle, I do not know of or have heard of EVEN ONE SINGLE girl or boy that was introduced as a couple to their spouse as Gitty says she was. Sure, they make great stories, but not in my lifetime.

The list goes on and on. Each item listed in the article is factually misquoted and misrepresented.

NYMAG is responsible for what is published in its pages. Would they have checked the Walmart statistics or checked out anything at all - they would have had no story. This is a totally biased piece written in the free-spirited liberalism and anti-semitism with no purpose other than to destroy a people; slander shamelessly and wholly in the name of free speech. They claim to cover a sorry state of affairs of one young woman - but what are they really saying? Nothing but slander and untruth. The article does not reveal Gitty's plight as in an intent to help Gitty find the inner peace she craves, nor does the article resolve the custody of the young child.

This is blatant mud-slinging on shiny pages.


Why just forget it?


 Jul 20, 2008 at 03:00 AM Anonymous Says:

CCJ - I liked what you wrote.

I was on the magazine's website and was looking at some of the comments....

It's interesting to see that 'Editor's Pick' of posted comments laud the journalist and the postees who agree with the article. The fact of the matter is there are two sides to every story. The editor would be a fool to believe that he is completely right about what is written in the article. This is a one sided story of a person in pain, very subjective - best taken with a grain of salt.


 Jul 20, 2008 at 10:39 AM Rabbi Lebovic Says:

Well done! To no. 166! I doubt if she knowed before and agreed what will be written in behalf of her name.


 Jul 22, 2008 at 02:51 PM Gefilte Fish Says:

CCJ: gut gezugt.


 Jul 27, 2008 at 09:04 PM KJ Survivor Says:

I grew up in KJ and I would like to share my truthful observation about the Vaad Ha(t)znius in KJ . In no way could I see the importance of having them, but the importance of having them entirely removed. Here is a bit of the real inside information about them, and their porn activities : The Vaad Hatznius in KJ consists of a bunch of proste lowlifes who are Zonahs themselves. I'm not exaggerating, I sat in the big, white house, Shul, next to one who was a leader of the gang. He has been disguised as some one who only wants Kedishus Yisroel, he used to ask me if I want to have a Shiur with him, however Boruch Hashem, that I simply wasn’t in the mood… It was only after his deeds have been revealed, that he was one of the biggest child molesters in town, that I knew how much to thank Hashem that he saved me from this monster. Many friends of mine have been dragged in the wood by the supra leader, on the stance that he wants to investigate something, and it's painful to say that they have been molested, and some of them have been left mental ill for the rest of their life. In Monroe everyone is a suspect. Thank God, I haven't ever had the ill desire to molest any one, still I have been physically interrogated by my "Rah" Bonim on the stance that I did so. I have a friend in Brooklyn who has been locked in a room with a gun faced to his face, forcing him to admit that he has been a child molester. Although I left KJ with a bad look at Yiddishkeit as a whole, still I won't be here just making up stories. It's easy for someone who didn't grow up there to comment in any way. Yes, it's the Mitzvah to be Dahn Lekaff Zechus, and I too say that it's not the community as a whole, they have a lot of good deeds and objectives, however needless that the community is dictated by a few Reshoim. I could still say a lot of good things referring to the community, especially what retains to the amount of Chesed they do; which is an abundant particles inherited from the past Satmar Rabbi Reb Yoel Z‘’L, may he rest in peace. My post life has been very difficult. Recovering from the so called holocaust effect was very difficult. I have been punished physically by my “Rah-Bonim ”ranging from blue to red colors . I have been swollen for months from their Rotzchideger Kanchigs. (It’s a statement have I overheard from one of the Deiyunim affiliated with Satmer, who did express that the period of Monroe when I grew up there, was an extension of the World War II). It was only after I, Boruch Hashem, got connected to my Rabbi in Brooklyn when I recovered my Yiddisher desire. Monroe could have been a golden city, if the Vaad Hatimah (Hatznius) would have been void, their rabbis would have been threatened against hitting children physically, and most of all the outlook at every Yid would have been positive. I have been taught that only Satmar would be zochah to go toward Moshiach. As of today I do still pray to hashem that they should reverse their "groaly Shtetel" to a "Holy Shtetel". The door of repentence is always open, however their damage might be irreversible. I highly sympathize with that girl, who like me grew up in the same vicinity, and unfortunately, her status is currently different. I do highly persuade her to take a different look at Yidishkeit. She was having the kind of teaching that "Yidishkeit is something similar to Islam" as approach by the Monroe clerks, however, many Monroers, or better say Mourners.. like me found a new path, and a better life with the Joy of Yiddishkeit. Remember Chazal Say Al Toodin Cheiveirchu Ad Shatageeah Leemkoamah. In addition to the town where she grew up, she also went through a difficult life coming from step-parents, who her mom itself was a Balas Teshuvah . I’m positive that one day she will be happy to recover her roots with a better approach of what her Shtetel wanted her to be. I think she would have a great psychodynamic approach to help other recover similar situations.
Ki Lo Yidach MiMenee Yidach!!!


 Jul 28, 2008 at 10:18 PM Zevi Says:

m sorry about some of the typo errors, im using my cell to write this message.
what I can't understand is how a person who joined a community, was accepted by them, can go and bad mouth it. maybe KJ is extreme, maybe everything she says is true, however, they have the rights to do wat ever they want. the freedom given to americans by its constitution allows for the freedom of religioun, etc. if one chooses to be more extreme and maybe even live their lives on the border line of insanity, it is their own right. when one rights a article in a public newspaper with the express intent to bad mouth a community, they then are denying the community its basic right. KJ's belief is based on privecy, that's why they don't live in nyc, rather upstate in a relitivly quiet town. what giives this women and the magazine the right to publicy disscuss a single community. there is no public benefit involved, and so the way I see it its just plain and simple a horrible act that has been commited against KJ. as for those who might say the article is geared to bring awareness and sympthy for this women, I have one question? why don't they open a fund to help her? if they care so god damn much about her why the hell don't they really help her. give her money for education. the article goes on and on of how she dosnt have money. by disscussing the cloths she buys for cheap, and how her lack of education pwervents her from getting a decent job. they clearly don't have any intention of helping her, in which case I fail to see any importance in the whole article. what exactly are they trying to acomplish? uunless like I said they are just trying to bad mouth a community who has done nothing wrong to the general public. if she has issues with the community let her go and deal with them in a civil manor.
one more point id like to make is, it is my opinion that this women does not care for her daughter. I know im being harsh, but come on! if she wanted to see her daughter, aall she would have to do is try and be considerate to the community and her family. if she would only dress in a quieter manor which is the standered of the community, or as best as she can, then she wouldn't be getting the shit she gets. she dosnt have to dress like the pics she posted, just a little more modest then her regular stuff. imagine her poor daughter coming back to school and all her friends are talking about her mom being the "gote" of the town. why does she need it. yes shes rebeling against them, but hey that's at the cost of her relationship with her daughter. if she shows up 15 min before shabat, in a car blasting music its equivalent to someone throwing a huge strip dancing party with the works right infront of a church on sunday morning at the same time as services. and then screaming why they don't get to see the child. gitty! don't be a idiot, u may be right, but ur in the worse part of the park, the ball is in ur exs side of the field, if u play ur cards right u will win, if u choose to be a bitch about it, u will end up loosing. its just the way life is. and you going to the press with the bs, it won't help ne one. that's the fact. I wish you loads of luck, and im sorry ur life was so hard. id love to try and help you, but more then anything you have to help urself.
btw people shtreimls don't cost 5000 they only cost 3000 and u can get them for even 800 or so. and its a choice, not everyone has to wair it, and no1 goes broke from buying one. so plz ppl try and get facts right.
a total outsider...


 Sep 18, 2008 at 11:58 PM Bobov Chassid Says:



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