New York – Proper chinuch can be all about striking just the right balance — as much about not saying the wrong things as it is about saying the right things. Above all else, it’s about teaching our children by our own good example.
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Take, for example, the trumped up rabbinic ban that led the singer Lipa Schmelczer to cancel a charity concert at Madison Square Garden last February.
Many people felt the economic blackmail brought to bear on Schmelczer, and the supposed issue of secular influences in his music, made a mockery of more important matters, and reflected poorly on our leaders.
Regular readers will recall front page reporting in The Jewish Star that proved that not all the rabbinic signatories were fully aware of what they were signing — suggesting that the exercise wasn’t so much one of Da’as Torah, as supporters claimed, as it was a fraud that would tend to lessen Emunas Chachomim, and faith, in general.
Still, many people took great pains to curb their confusion, hurt and anger in front of their children for fear of doing irreparable harm to the children’s faith in Torah leaders, even as the faith of the parents was being shaken.
Now, several hundred boys will return to yeshiva in September — including to some local institutions — having learned a very dubious lesson at summer camp: that their adult role models at Camp MaNaVu think that the “ban” was so completely ludicrous that it can be openly mocked in a roomful of children, and satirized as a color war breakout. MaNaVu, by the way, has strong ties to Yeshiva Chaim Berlin.
While they may be correct, spelling it out the way they did was, in our opinion, a terrible miscalculation.
Lipa Schmelczer himself was on stage at the camp in upstate New York last week performing a particularly secularsounding number. Suddenly, a man dressed in what was intended to pass for Charedi garb jumped up and ‘threw’ the singer off the stage, then harangued the campers about the damage secular-styled music was inflicting on their souls.
A video of the event on YouTube [THE YOU TUBE VIDEO HAS SINCE BEEN REMOVED] shows the campers responding with cheers for Lipa, deriding the “rabbi” and singing “We Will Rock You,” an anthem performed by the band Queen.
Here is the Video
We asked two well-respected local educators for their thoughts about the incident .
“This whole ban thing is a real screwup,” said one. “I think, honestly, it goes back to the situation that we’re in — you’ve got to be careful what you’re ossuring because it’s going to come back and haunt you.”
About the ban as fodder for a color war breakout, he said, “Once you start making fun — it’s just not what you’re supposed to do as adults — is make fun of rabbonim. To make a satire of a ban, is just dangerous.”
“The response of the kids is very telling,” the other educator observed.
“It’s not that they promoted a chilul Hashem,” he said. Without knowing the intentions of the camp officials, the context in which the satire was approved, or how color war was broken out in the past, he stressed, he wasn’t prepared to judge them specifically.
Still, he said, “You can see how upset the kids are about the whole thing. I think it really exposes an underlying problem that people think these kids are dopes and can be dictated too.”
“They are very naive about how a kid thinks and how he should be educated,” he added.
One final irony: Lipa Schmelczer, who feared for his livelihood six months ago, is now the undisputed star of Jewish music, confident enough to take part in this ill-considered satire.
In my opinion the ban was wrong and uncalled for and the COLOR WAR WAS EVEN more so WRONG in front of children.
I saw the VID on You Tube and didn’t believe my eyes.
The rabbonim made a miscalculation. I remember and shall never forget the time my father took me 50 years ago to the yosef shpiel (separate seating)!
Although he never in his life went, he took me to Hill 24 doesn’t answer (the first Israeli movie ever made about the War of independence).
While the cancellations of the Lipa concerts are questionable, the manner in how they were done was disgusting by any standard without giving the producers any chance of program review.
Equally, the schwekey concerts in Israel were set up in a proper forum and also cancelled by the short-sightedness of those involved.
Children in Jerusalem have no real outlets , especially against the severe secular influenece and of the pressures by the anti-religous Israelis. Music is very powerful binder and cohesive expression and these power hungry dictatorial turf dominators have no inkling of what their decision had on many teenagers.
I do not approve of todays movies, most TV,
and goyishe music, but the continued severe issurim (without attempts to correctly modify and accommodate proper structure of events) will lead to a complete disrespect of these Rabbonimlike this episode. The Belzer Rebbe correctly agreed to offer internet (Supervised) to his chassidim.
This is unlike the Rosh Yeshivas, Mechanchim who are the murderers of our children’s chinuch by not offering adequate Math, basic Sciences and American History. All these children will rebel later in life when they are the lowest eductaed
depressed(no outlet) young adults. It’s easy to say mtoornish! But at what cost. All of these so-called mechanchim will pay dearly in shomayim for their rishes on our innocent children as this event clearly is the beginning of what they caused by their smallminded overbearing attitude. Our last generation turned out b’h fine with the concerts.
I would like to know which “well-respected educator” used the word “screwup to describe it?
We’re on a slipery slope.
This was a huge mistake by this camp.
I assume an innocent one. But they should’ve known better.
It’s one thing to perhaps express one’s opinion that the Rabbonim made an error in judgement (or were duped)re: the Ban. I believe that even (some of the) the Rabbonim themselves when candid admit that it was not done properly.
Rabbonim are not infallible (It does not mean that we don’t have to listen to them regardless)
But MAKING CHIOZEK of the Gedolim is inexcusable
and very dangerous “Hamaligim al Divrei Chachochim ….” That camp needs to quickly come out with a major apology and ask mechilah of each and every Godol and work overtime to restore
respect of Rabonim in their campers eyes.
If they don’t do this (or something substatial)
I would never send my child to that camp and encourage others to do the same. We need to stand up for Kovod Hatorah. That is not something to make fun about. We have the Goyim & Freie that are very happy to do that job.
the whole lipa ban is a bunch of a time consuming soap opera. lipa I love u
I b’h have the greatest grandchildren Hashem could give anyone. They have no TV and learn as well as doing Chesed.
But, since Lipa was outlawed by naive Rabbonim, who were out of touch with children’s needs for expression of behavior (rather than the rebellion of so many of of our Youth more and more on drugs)
many kids are not as happy or expressive as before.
I loved the energy all the kids would expend on mimmmicking Lipa, Schwekey and avram Freid. It was healthy, and joyful and they are not the same.
I want to see the video.
the quick man a vu crowd is not the most torahdik homes . in lakewood the kids all where behind the Rabonim. its how you are mechanih
ch your child that’s how they will react. tha apple does not fall from the tree
I would like to know which “well-respected educator” used the word “screwup to describe it?
Yanky Horowitz
Was Lipa in on it?
I think they have the wrong kids at Camp M’nuval. They dont look like Chaim Berliners.
As for the breakout…. I have mixed feelings about it. I was laughing at it, thats for sure. But at the same time, I dont know what message it sends the young minds of mush. Perhaps the “saving grace” was that is was color war breakout so the kids saw it was all fake.
It would be interesting to know what the themes are because perhaps they repaired the “error” with the themes.
All that said, I dont think it was a good idea so I will have to talk to a friend of mine who is on their staff to find out what the g’henim they were thinking.
Being a Lipa fan, I think he did go a little overboard with the concert, advertizing, MSG, etc., on the other hand, these ra-bonim are excited to be included in the list (otherwise he’s a nobody…)
Oh, they were NOT singing “We Will Rock You” although that was the original song. All one has to do is LISTEN to the words and you know that wasnt it.
Unfortunately, the incident is very telling – to an extent, many people treat the gedolim like a joke; they don’t take them seriously anymore.
After all, who listened to the wedding takanos six/seven years ago? Anyone? No, the weddings just got fancier and fancier. And the fact that it wasn’t enforced didn’t help the cause.
A few years ago, a tape was released poking fun at the indian-hair shaitel ban and the bugs in the water situation. It became a joke.
And the poorly-handled bans of Reinman, Kamenetsky, Slifkin, the encouragement of kollel for everyone, notwithstanding the tremendous cost of living, and was as the thunder-like silence at the molestation and abuse exposes — let’s call a spade a spade – it’s now harder to have emunas chachamim than it’s been in a long, long time.
Who’s to blame? Certainly we as a people have to improve. But at the same time, as R’ Shmuel Kamenetsky said about the Lipa ban, many of the above incidents could’ve been handled better on the rabbonims’ end.
to anon 10 pm, the freie have a din of tinok shenishba, and regardless, it’s the goyim and l’havidil the freie.
to sober, a tzadik said, that the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, except when there’s a big storm.
That rosh yeshiva should be removed from his post.
not to go into the details of the ban whether it was 100% justified. I’m not a ruv, therefore i can’t tell a ruv what to do and what not to do.
But those critical commentators should fear for the “bizoyon talmidai chachomim”, the gemoro says very harsh things on mevazei talmiday chachomim. watch your language!
disgusting!!
ma na vu is not a chaim berlin camp the only connection (which isn’t that small) is that the owner/director of manavu is Rabbi klien who is the menahel of the elementry
what happened to klal yisroel nebach!
What was with the devil horns at the breakout that is the universal signal for ROCK N ROLL
remember this camp had koko there for years
If the rabonim want to gain their respect back they should come up with a signed letter saying we we duped and made a mistake, Rav moshe feinsten did they when he was duped into banning torro college
Elchonon Schwartz Rocks!!!!
Excellent. The rabbonim have allowed their reputation to be tarnished. They need to earn the public’s trust once again.
All of the kids were cheering btw.
About 30 years ago, Rabbi Shloime Klein, director of Manavu, almost expelled me from the camp for telling an off-color joke to a younger camper.
Bleeping hypocrite.
>But MAKING CHIOZEK of the Gedolim is inexcusable
and very dangerous “Hamaligim al Divrei Chachochim ….” That camp needs to quickly come out with a major apology and ask mechilah of each and every Godol and work overtime to restore respect of Rabonim in their campers eyes.< All of the above assumes that those who signed the ban are true Gedolim and Chachomim. Many would beg to differ.
>After all, who listened to the wedding takanos six/seven years ago? Anyone? No, the weddings just got fancier and fancier. And the fact that it wasn’t enforced didn’t help the cause. < It was a lot worse than that. The ads announcing the takana specifically stated that the signers do not not have to follow their own takana!!!
A Rosh ha Yeshiva, refering really to frume Yidden b’klal, once told that “chassidim go to the Rebbe, the Rebbe doesn’t advertise for chassidim.” Our Gedolim earn their positions. Relatedly, we have to acknowledge that a legitimate issue of concern arises, about the Gedolim, when a pesak is rendered that so many decent, learned Yidden find troublesome.
Love it or hate it, that was a great color-war breakout (though I think the whole concept of a breakout is absurd).
Did the camp make a mistake in judgment by doing it? Perhaps. But I ask you….
IF IT’S OKAY FOR DOZENS OF LEADING RABBIS TO MAKE A MISTAKE, WHY NOT FOR A CAMP???
the mishnah in sanhedrin says Kol hamivaze talmidei chachamim ein lo chelek lolam haba. WOW
This is just so so sad. I cried my way through this sad video of pure Jewish children in a so called “Frum Camp” looking no different than a bunch of teenagers in a disco. All being led by our finest Mechanchim. “OY LANU MIYOM HADIN OY LANU MIYOM HATOCHACHA” (where there will be videos of everything we have done). Woe unto those adults who not only stood idly by, but encouraged this behavior of mocking our Rabanim and exposed our pure children to this filth.
Dido Dido Dido… to Camp MaNaVu
I thought it was very Creative…
and the kids had a great time …..
We Normal Adults do know that that Ban on the BIG EVENT was Hypocritical….
L&L
I happen to know first hand that the camp spoke to the boys afterwards explaining that the choizek was meant for Lipa. Lipa has a long standing selationship with the camp and was willing to poke fun at himself. For others to judge MNV is another case of typical MNV bashing. They do an incredible job of giving the children a great time within the parameters of Torah. If you want to see true kavod haTorah then I suggest you visit the camp and observe the mind numbing and inspiring kavod haTorah they give to their Mara De’Asra _Rav Dovid Kviat. We are so quick to bash others. It is a shame that so many speak from jealousy.
I was there once for Maariv and watched these wonderful children escort their Rav to his bungalow. It was humbling to see true kavod haTorah with no “put ons”. Yiddishe kinderlach are so precious. Why would people in this forum baskh without having any idea what happened before or after? The rest of the world speaks of kavod haTorah and take themselves so seriously. Maybe some of us should learn from these boys how to give real kavod. We all take ourselves too seriously today.
Thank you Anon 1147p for your comments. I too heard the exact same thing from someone there. I could not imagine this would be as plain as has been reported.
To Anon 1145p, if this is the only thing you have to cry over, you must be pretty good. By the way, one question for you Anon, HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT GOES ON IN A DISCO???????????????
You obviously refuse to recognize that – like it or not – “jewish” music follows that of the ayno yehudim in some ways. I can honestly tell you that Lipa’s songs and music do tremendous good for the youngsters of today. You probably dont beleive it but listen to anyone involved with the youngster and they will tell you.
You think this is a problem. These were a bunch of adorable kids enjoying a colorwar breakout. They werent making fun of anyone.. they were enjoying lipa and the “breakout show”. The problem in this world isn’t this….it is a going on vos iz neias and talking about people and camps and cities. Worry about yourselves. Get off the internet!!!! Dont you have anything better to do than sit and talk loshon horah all day long. Fargin other people and maybe you should go to camp and have some fun. Than you wont be busy talking about color war break outs!!
TO “JUST THE FACTS”:
Firstly this is certainly not “the only thing that I have to cry over”, but that does not make it any less sad.
Secondly, although I have never been to a disco myself, it doesn’t take a genius to realize that the movements and sounds in this video were not picked up by going to a Rebbe’s tisch or from any of our Gedolim (I’m still not sure why you are turning this into something personal, but I am mochel you in advance). And finally you might be shocked to learn that I am involved in both Kiruv and Chinuch, and quite frankly I have not seen anything “good for todays youngsters” come out of Lipa’s music (& videos). Unless you are refering to the fact that it exposed our youngesters to the style of what you call “anyo yehudim” though I’m not quite sure how that is good.
good pr for LIPA, I know ppl like to bash him, but he is a much bigger star since the ban, and about the camp I don’t think they did anything wrong, CW is also goyish so if u want to ban lipa ban CW TOO, the whole ban is a joke just look on all the other concerts there was no ban, how come? just one answer some ppl were out there just to get lipa and that’s why the ban is a joke, if they would be serious about it they would ban all the concerts, just lthis summer they had two concerts already on a boat and a 3 one coming up and no one said anything, and for all you lipa bashers I know you wanted to finish him off, but GUESS WHAT HE IS STRONGER AND MORE POPULAR THEN EVER,
Wow – This is absolutely the most brilliant and hysterical color war break out I have ever seen. The whole BAN was a flop from A to Z so why not laugh at the joke it was / is. Great stuff – I really had a good laugh watching this. Thanks ma-na-vu – LIpa YOur great
last time i heard of ma na vu is that they beat camp bei keiyta at basketball.
I think all the geniuses commenting here would do better not to make an issue of the whole thing. The camp’s directive was just to scare the “color War” breakout and not to ridicule anyone as I can see.Just provide the kids suspense and nothing else was intended on purpose.
Todays so-cALLED gEDOLIM HAVE for the most part no comprehension of the outside influences of society at large.
Recently, I have worked with people in The Williamsburgh community with an unadmitted problem of various addictions across many families. It is a result of the many meshugasim
like “shoe buckles the women should not wear.”
The community is hiding everything and no communal
treatment to the problems of all these varied addictions in such a frum community.
The energy kids had as their music idols was healthy like the rebbe cards(lets asser that because they take the form of baseball and footbal Chukas Hagoy-Let’s burn all th Gedolim cards like the concerts!). No one has answered the guy who wrote about the sick so-called manhigim (thruout our system here and Israel)
not teaching our children considerable math, science , english and American History and crippling our children. These sick people are now asking broke tuition paying parents to pay for stay-late classes to teach these basic skilss. This is sicker than the concerts and will cripple our kleine nishomos for the rest of their lives.
My grandchildren are top students and are 3-4 years behind their class level. Great Manhigim geniuses and u are worried about Camp Manovu or Lipa. U gutys should worrry about this great decision by these frum educators not a color War breakout!
why are we bashing rabonim here. This was a very creative entertaining colorwar breakout. The kids were not making fun of the “rav” they were joining in on the ruach. I watched it on u tube and it was fabulous. Stop making problems in klal yisroel. there are enough problems as it is. Great Breakout by the way. Looks like the kids were having a blast. Usually in these things, only the staff is involved.
It is high time that people see these ‘bans’ for what they really are.. Pure nonsense and out of touch… We have kids boozing it up in the colonies, etc.. Abuse.. and all that these ‘rabbis’ care about is to believe a non jew (a robber and thief) who lied to them and caused great hard in many ways. It is time that people wake up and ban the ‘rabbis’ and get this nation back to order.. Who is in charge anyway?
its manavu that should be banned…
anyone remember the self-important camp kolreenah in the 70’s-the same junk-and worse-went on there-no, the music was amudai shaish, but the middos and the colorwar insanity was the same-and worse.
Ma-na-vu has nothing to do with Chaim Berlin. It happens to be that Rav Shlomo Klein who is the menahel of the Yeshiva Ketana and is the owner of Ma-na-vu.
the best breakout I ever heard of ,the guy who thought of the idea should sold it, Id of paid a couple of bucks,to have it done in my camp,Lipa we will rock you!
Let there be Frum Wrestling Matches…so we can choose
I know Lipa for many years way before he became big. Lipa is a sincere genuine jew. Live and let live. If you dont like his music dont buy the CD . Stop bashing a jew just for the sake of bashing. LIPA GO ALL THE WAY ! I hope you make a concert even bigger than the big event . I’ll be the first to buy tickets.
Thank you camp manavu for yet another exciting moment in camping history. We love you Rabbi Klien!!!!
Thanks for letting us know that camp ma na vu is actually camp “lo na vo”!
It’s a tremendeous chillul HaShem – aren’t the rabbanim suppose to teach Yirat Shamayim? What happened to our generation? They looked and danced like a bunch of Goyim with Kippot and Tziziot, r’l.
Then we wonder why so much tragedy befalls on Am Israel…
HaShem Yerachem!
to Clarification: you wrote
“to anon 10 pm, the freie have a din of tinok shenishba, and regardless, it’s the goyim and l’havidil the freie”.
You are 100% correct – I was not medayik – just making the point that there are enough “others” that make fun of us. – Thank you.