Poughkeepsie, NY – A court battle that began last holiday season in Poughkeepsie over the city’s involvement in the erection and lighting of a 22-foot menorah has evolved into a debate over what the city should – or should not – do to accommodate holiday displays this year.
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The lighting of the menorah, owned by Chabad of the Mid-Hudson Valley, a local Jewish congregation, went on as planned last year – but only after state Supreme Court Judge James Pagones ruled, over the city’s objections, that city workers should assist Rabbi Yacov Borenstein during the eight days of Hanukkah lighting ceremonies.
In recent years, the menorah has been placed on property near the corner of Main and Market streets in downtown Poughkeepsie.
Pagones’ ruling sparked a response from some city residents who joined the debate with city officials and Borenstein over what help, if any, the city should give to religious groups wishing to erect holiday displays.
Attorney and former Mayor Jack Economou represents the residents and has filed court papers in the case before Pagones.
“As city of Poughkeepsie residents and taxpayers, we feel that if anything should remain privatized, it should be religion,” Economou said. “We object to City of Poughkeepsie money, equipment, property or staff being used to display the symbols of any religious faith.”
“Whenever government gets involved in displaying religious symbols based on their so-called cultural value, there is a real danger of promoting majority religions over minority religions and promoting religion over secularism,” he said. “We were taught that this is what the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution is designed to prevent.”
Following a conference this week in Pagones’ chambers, the judge gave all parties until Oct. 31 to come up with a solution. If everyone involved can’t agree by then, the judge will conduct a hearing to hear arguments from all sides.
Chabad’s attorney, Joel Hanig, said the U.S. Supreme Court had ruled on several occasions that municipalities may permit religious displays as long as all religions are accommodated. Hanig said the city had offered to allow the menorah, and any other displays from other religious groups, to be placed on a city-owned lot off Main Street, about half a block east of Market Street.
“The issues have to do with the parameters of the city using its manpower to erect the menorah and enable the lighting of the candles during the eight days (of Hanukkah),” he said. “The other issue is the placement of the displays.”
Hanig said he had looked at the city-owned lot off Main Street that had been discussed. He said he had some concerns it might not be large enough to accommodate the displays of all religious groups who might wish to participate this holiday season.“We think the lawn at City Hall (located about two blocks north on Civic Center Plaza) might be better,” Hanig said.
Borenstein noted the holiday commemorates events recorded in the Talmud after Assyrian troops invaded the temple to try to force Jews not to practice their religion.“This is a message for all nations that no one can force anyone to convert to any religion,” Borenstein said. “It’s a call to add a little light to the darkness, for Jews and non-Jews to work together to make the world a better place.”
If the point of the public Menorah lighting, which has no mekor in halacha, is to attract Jews, this is certainly attracting negative attention.
They would be far better off not doing it. Especially since a bracha on this Menorah is probably a brach levatala since the only place to light is in one’s home or ahul.
Wow what an am haarets haven’t you heard of the mitzvah of pirsumay nisah?
The troops were Greeks from Syria, not Assyrian.
Chabat is making a big deal for nothing,
Tzoorba writes like a complete am ha-aretz. Suffice to say that Gedolie Hador held it is persuma nisa and that the brochah is required, not to mention the obvious kiruv component and Kiddush Hashem (Jewish pride) aspect. Refrain from foolish comments!
Lighting these public menorah may be something that I or you wouldn’t do – it’s not “our” thing, but for those that do light public menorahs, they have solid grounds to do so.
kol hakovod to chabad, if any one talks aginst the chabad rebbe he is playing with fire!
It is a religious thing and should not be in the public space.
Separation of “religion from government”, is a very important. Something thing we Jews benefit a lot from we should not work against it.
In the past the Lubabitures claimed that a Menorah is a symbol of freedom – Chas-Veshalom – and not religious, we all know the Macbees enforced “marshals-law” not freedom.
” litvak” you are the am-haaretz the MAIN “pirsumei neisa” is for ones household and there is no inyan to attract unnecessary attention when it upsets people
when you donate to chabad does anybody know what percent goes to the courts it seems like they are forever in court for every shtus what a chillul hashem
this is an extremely important mitzva in the religion of lubavitch so it is no wonder that they are making an issue over this.
There should be no religious symbols on any public property, and certainly taxpayer dollars should not go toward erecting religious symbols. I know I wouldn’t want my tax dollars to go for putting up a nativity scene. I can’t understand why chabad wants to put a big Menorah on public property. There are plenty of visible privately-owned locations.
FYI all of you, this was the one of the L Rebbe’s big projects that he supported.. to create Jewish pride… Allen Dershwitz and many other lawyers took on these cases pro-bono to get a lot of publicity for themselves .. Bornstein loves this I know him.. This is one of his big accomplishments for the year.
Kol hakavod to chabad. This is very important and IY’H they will be matzliach.
Go Chabad Go……You are the best.
The issue isn’t whether it’s good or bad to have a public Menorah lighting – all here would agree that these are terrific events. The point is it should be on private property, not government property and not using public employees paid for with public funds to set it up. Did the LLR say to put big Menorahs on government property? I doubt it.
You People,
Should fight for what you Believe would be Good for all Jews in Poughkeepsie !!!!!
Lock & Load
The townspeople are mainly upset because city workers are being used to construct the menorah, and a city truck is used to lift up the rabbi to light it. They are paying taxes for this.
If Chabad wants to do a menorah lighting, let Chabad pay the costs for construction and for a truck, not the taxpayers.
Lock and Load: You say ” You People,
Should fight for what you Believe would be Good for all Jews in Poughkeepsie !!!!!” What is good for all Jews in Poughkeepsie and elsewhere is a strong separation of church and state. Have you forgotten the inquisition, modern day Iran, to name a few.
i am a lubavitcher chossid and very supportive of this shliach and any shliach involved in pirsumei nisa.
that being said, IF this article is telling the whole story, i think this rabbi expecting public service for his menorah goes againts the princeples of america and against his own self intetrest and that of his community.
Anonymous 6:42 ” the MAIN “pirsumei neisa” is for ones household”
A half truth is a complete lie! You yourself write “the MAIN” because you know that there is additional examples of pirsuma nisa!
The pirsuma nisa is wherever people gather, starting with the family, but also the public – that’s why we light by the window.
This is also referred to in Al Hanisim, “v’hidliku neiros BCHATZROS kodshecha”, why in the chotzer? After all, the menorah was in the kodesh – not the chotzer? Yet they lit flames in the “chatros” for pirsuma nisa.
As stated earlier, there is also the kiruv component and the Jewish pride. Yidden also pay taxes, and part of the taxes goes for the decorated trees and stars and nativity scenes on public property – celebrating avoda zarah. Do you have a problem if part of the yiddishe tax money is instead spent on Jewish symbols? If you do, that’s fine with me.
You can pay (via taxes) for the x-mas tree and I’ll pay for the menorah.
As I stated, I am not Chabad, and Chabad is not my derech, but I’d rather have my kids admire a menorah in the public square, than a colorful tree!
I cannot see how Yidden have a problem with this (unless they see themselves like grasshoppers).
Addendum to Anonymous 6:42 – The halocha is, “das bal habayis hepech torah.” To know Das Torah, just do the opposite of what you think.
Litvak: Public funds are NOT allowed for nativity scenes and generally they may not be placed on public property. The danger of Chabad’s position is that xians are now saying that if we can have menorahs on public property then they should be allowed nativities, etc. BTW, the reason the Supreme Court (in a split decision) allowed Menorahs and xmas trees on public space is that the court accepted the argument that neither are religious and have become just secular winter decorations. Therefore, fighting to put their menorahs on public property has turned a menorah into just another decoration, not a ritual, religeous or spiritual item. You can’t have it both ways.
To Anonymous 12:13 “fighting to put their menorahs on public property has turned a menorah into just another decoration”
Does the “kavanah” of the government to consider it as a “decoration” make it less of a mitzvah?
Does that take away from the message that it is chanukah and Hashem preformed miracles for us?
Does that diminsh the reminder to Jews to be more Jewish?
Litvak: It’s not the Kavanah of the government. The side that was arguing for the menorah and xmas tree to be allowed argued for their secular meaning/purpose in order to get around the establishment clause. And, for the rest of your questions “no.” However, the point still remains that this should be done on private property with private funds. There are plenty of locations where you can still have a giant Menorah outdoors that can be seen from the street — just respect the establishment clause — it’s one of the things that has made this country great and a safe place for Jews.
Moshe and Litvak,
You spout am haaretz without any mekor.
The din is ner ish ubaiso and even lighting in a shul is a chiddush. All the so called raayos that you bring are drush shel hevel.
Litvak says – “Gedolie Hador held it is persuma nisa and that the brochah is required,”
Which gedolei hador? Not any act that one dreams up is pirsumei nisa. Chazal have defined pirsumei nisa here and it doesn’t include this.
If one doesn’t have a home, even though his whole family is around, he may not light in the street or on his car on the way to a chasuna. The place in the house is no indication of the main mitzva.
There is no safek that bechatzros kodshecha here means the main menorah. This pairush is total fiction.
How come no other group but Lubavitch has come up with this practice? It’s obvious that no one else holds of this approach.
Additionally, even in our times there is such as thing as antagonizing Goyim and that’s what this practice is doing in this case and many others.
At Tzoorbah:
I have 3 words for you (you can check the sugya in Shabbos starting “Mai Chanukah,” and you can also check the shulchan aruch – which are 2 jewsh legal compendiums respected by ALL Jews, Chabad or not:
PESACH BEISO MIBACHUTZ!
The WHOLE POINT of the Mitzvah is pirsumei nisah – putting the menorah outside our homes, at least according to the shulcan aruch, just as megilah on purim serves that purpose quite explicitly. Although there ar egedolim that have streesed this point (the Rebbe being one such Gadol), we hardly need a Gadol to tell us what every posek in shulchan aruch makes abundantly clear: that the entire mitzva of menorah is to spread the news of the miracle at home and outside the home.
Please don’t be like the Greeks that had a problem with Jews displaying their religion in public, we ought, at the very least, learn from Chanukah to be proud of displaying the beauty of Judaism and the eternal and universal (and most certainly American) lessons and ideals of light overcoming might.
Get a shulchan aruch people,
The vast majority of those that light the menorah properly light it inside the house and not outside of the doorway or on the opening of the courtyard. They may light it next to the door on the inside or at a window facing the outside. This is because to a certain extent it is still shaas hasacana and we have to be concerned about being meorer sina or aiva.
Beshaas hasacana mayniach oso al shulchano vedayo.
tzoorba Says:
Get a shulchan aruch people…
Ner Chanukah has TWO components, the mitzva of hadlaka and the mitzva of pirsuma nisa – they are not mutually exclusive, and lighting on the street is the mitzva of pirsuma nisa.
This isn’t the forum to get into a halachic discussion but several Roshei Yeshivos, including Moron Rav Schach who was no supporter of Chabad’s derech, had no criticism but rather indeed expressed clear satisfaction about public menorahs (in Israel). Same with Rav Eliyashuv. In America, our Gedolim had no issue with it. Although some felt it may not be necessary, none had a problem with the hadlokah or bracha.
I don’t know which Yeshiva you came from, but if your Rosh Yeshiva had a problem with the Brocha or the validity al pi halacha – please name him!
There are plenty of REAL issues one can raise about Chabad (as with nearly every Jewish community that has not reached shlaimus). This is not one of them!
Not one of you took a look across the street from the menorah, where there is a massive Christmas tree, and its not only up there for one week its up there for a whole month. poor taxpayers, whose money is going to the lighting of all the light bulbs they use and all the workers it takes to put it up. don’t write some made up that its not persumei nessa , chabad is doing an amazing job. dont talk until you see what the other religions are doing.
I love it! We’re still saying Selichos, and already people are fighting about Chanuka and Chabad! What a great way to go into the new year!
My gosh: Since when do we look at what other religions are doing to decide how to practice? Just because some others might not understand the importance of separation of church and state, why should we? Also, the tree has little or no religious signigicance anymore. It’s not the equivalent of a Menorah. Go ahead and light outside – just stay off government property.
To TRS –
This isn’t fighting about Chabad. It’s about whether as Jews and Americans religious symbols should be on public property.
Anonymous 3:27 Says:
It is a religious thing and should not be in the public space. Separation of “religion from government”, is a very important.
Anonymous 8:45 Says:
There should be no religious symbols on any public property.
I suppose you removed from your currency the words, “In G-d We Trust”. I suppose the opening of the senate and congress is done without a formal prayer. I suppose in court, witnesses do not swear on a holy book…
I suppose govenment does not fund grants for various religious organizations. I suppose you are also against religious school tuition rebates or assistance…
WAKE UP, government and religion are intertwined. America never kicked G-d out of the Constitution…we are “One nation under…”
The only issue is whether the JEWISH religion is to be included or left out! Have you not that ounce of self-pride?!
Don’t be foolish or self destructive. Bring Judaism into the public squares! Push those xmas symbols aside to make a little room for us – because we too make up part of this great nation.
We have nothing to fear – only ourselves.
Litvak,
Upon further investigation, I have found 2 peshatim in hadliku nairos bechatzros kadshecha that cast a different light on the issue.
The Chasam Sofer said that they lit the regular Menorah in the chatzer which is not the regular place because they couldn’t light it in the normal place. This would then be the regular menorah but in a place that is still within the bais hamikdosh.
The Rogatchover said that it refers to an extra menorah that was lit for pirsum hanes. However, this could also be understood to be a form of lighting in a mokom kodosh.
In any case, I would like to know a source for the approval of Rav Shach z”l and Rav Eliyashiv shlita for this minhag.
Are you kidding me 3:56? If it was Aish or Ohr Sameach doing this, or if R’ Matisyahu Solomon gave his Haskamah, then this conversation wouldn’t be happening. I hate playing the victim here, but facts are facts, “Eisav Sonei Yisrael.” Fortunately, we have a promise from the Alter Rebbe, “Yad Chassidim Al Haelyonah”.
tzoorba – if you want to talk lomdus , although this isn’t the forum…
Firstly you must conceed that the pshat of the Rogatchover explicitly considers public lighting of the menorah as pirsuma nisa, which is a distinct mitzvah.
Secondly, the kasha remains according to either pshat – why the PLURAL “bchatzros” and not the singular “bchotzer”?
Therefore, the pirush is that throughout Yerushalim Ir Hakodesh the Yidden lit public menorah for pirsum hanes! (M’koros – not in this forum).
Meanwhile we were mzaka ha’rabim (including yourself) who had no clue in the pirush hamilos of AL Hanissim.
You wrote at 2:00: “You spout am haaretz without any mekor”. Suffice that as admitted, till a few minutes ago you did not even know pshat in a common tfilah. Now that you do know pshat – it doesn’t make you a talmid chochem or bal halacha!
The approval of Moran v’Rabbonan was witnessed by many when the subject was brought up to them.
Further, you may be aware that Moran was very critical of many of Chabad activities, he was very public about it in Yeshiva, but he never ever uttered a single word to criticize public menorahs.
ADDENDUM – the purpose of my earlier comments were not to defend Chabad (they have many of their own who can answer by quoting chapter and verse), but to stop Shtus criticism without any yesod. I could have asked my talmidim to respond, but to prevent chilul Hashem, mitzva bo yoser.
Borenstein:“It’s a call to add a little light to the darkness, for Jews and non-Jews to work together to make the world a better place.”
Why are we turning Chanukah into the universal Jewish equivalent of the goyish xmas? What is this nonsense about lights to the world? I am so sick and tired of Frum Jews having the Haskalah apikores ideology of Channukah. To put it simply, Chanukah is about the DEDICATION of the Temple out of the hands of the HELLENIST JEWS and GREEKS back to the Frum Haredi Jews. The Light was for THEM NOT for all the world, NOT for the Hellenist Jews who betrayed Hashem and certainly NOT for the GREEKS.
Lets get our facts straight people! The Macabees were Zealous for Hashem, just like Pinchus. The first people they fought with were the secular Jews, (the Hellenists) who were running Jerusalem, and as you can imagine sided with the Greeks. Remind you of anyone today? Hmmm Furthermore, factually speaking the battle to retake Jerusalem was against BOTH Hellenist Jews and Greeks. So the miracle of 8 days took place after killing apikores Hellenist Jews and Greeks.
So please Yidden read First Macabees, Megillah Antiochus, Talmud and you will find Chanukah has NOTHING to do with what it has been turned into.
Litvak,
# Litvak Says:
comments – arrow tzoorba – if you want to talk lomdus , although this isn’t the forum…
I don’t know why you ignored the obvious pshat in this that I quoted before. This was in the bais hamikdosh which is equivalent to a shul so this is no raayeh at all.
Therefore, the pirush is that throughout Yerushalim Ir Hakodesh the Yidden lit public menorah for pirsum hanes! (M’koros – not in this forum).
You never seem to have the M’koros at hand. I wonder if they exist.
You brought up the kashye. I supplied the teirutzim which are no stira to what I have been saying.
This is typical purposeless onoas devorim which is usually the hallmark of an am haaretz.
More unsubstantiated claims. Bring some concrete evidence.
How do you know this.
# Litvak Says:
I could have asked my talmidim to respond, but to prevent chilul Hashem, mitzva bo yoser.
You should have let them do it. They probably would have done better.
Litvak who should be called Lubavitcher,
Your arguments are weak on a number of grounds.
Why do you have to go to unconventional peshutim in al hanisim to prove your point? Why can’t you point to any source in halacha?
It says chatzros KODSHECHA. It doesn’t say stam chatzros. This indicates that it was only allowed in the kodesh.
According to you, there is no mention of the menorah in al hanisim, just the supplementary lightings. This is certainly not the accepted pshat.
Now you have stooped to name calling. Regarding name calling, Chazal tell us “kol haposel b’mumo posel”, as was confirmed upon investigation.
Regarding “unconventional peshutim”, Reb Yid, surely you admit that you didn’t know of any “conventional” or otherwise peshutim until you “discovered” a Chasam Sofer and a Rogatchover pirush.
You write: “According to you, there is no mention of the menorah in al hanisim, just the supplementary lightings. This is certainly not the accepted pshat.”
Firstly, “accepted pshat” by whom? By someone (like yourself) who had no clue of the simple pirush hamilos that Bchotzer is not within the Kodesh!
Secondly, you get “excited” from the adjective chatzros KODSHECHA that it cannot mean stam chatzros (thus you twist pshat into a pretzel by saying Kodshecha IS the kodesh…maybe l’shitascha, chatzros is a tous hadfus). Reb Yid, have you never heard of Kedushas Yerushalaim? The chazros of Yerusholiam were lit with public menorahs – that was the lighting in chatzros KODSHECHA!
Yes, for someone who for years said Al Hanisim without knowing pshat – this may seem “unconventional”. It’s easier to simply ignore these “problematic” words that don’t fit with your mistaken assumption that it means the Menorah in the Kodesh.
Thirdly, you raise the point that if so there is no mention of the menorah in Al Hanisim – Nu, I’ll open your eyes so that you may glimpse at the truth:
Indeed, the Al Hanisim does not mention the ness of pach hashemen, no oil, no 8 days – only the ness of nitzochon milchama, giborim byad chaloshim etc. (BTW – that is why it is in Bircas Hodaha – like those 4 who are chayov l’hodos after their life was saved from danger, and because you insist on mekoros – see well known Brisker’s pirush on this and on the Rambam, go and learn).
Since the Al Hanissim isn’t about the ness of pach hashemen (nor the lighting of the Menorah in the Bais Hamikdosh), this further implies that the “hidliku neiros bchatzros kodshecha” was public lightings for pirsuma nissa, that HaK”BH did for Klal Yisroel.
I assume you will have further ha’oros and katchkes, but I have no time to keep responding, I must prepare a shiur. If you wish, you may visit my Kollel and one of my dear Talmidim will teach you this inyan(that “T”R my chanukah” davka speaks of pach hashemen and Al Hanissim davka speaks of nes hamilchoma and how the Rambam speaks of Lhodos u’Lhalel).
BTW – I am mochel you for the name calling, and have a gut yor.
I am wondering:
When Litvak wrote to Tzoorba, “Now you have stooped to name calling. Regarding name calling, Chazal tell us “kol haposel b’mumo posel”, as was confirmed upon investigation.”
Does that mean he’s claiming that Tzoorba comes from Chassidishe / Lubavitcher ancestors?
Or by eluding to a Chazal, is he simply claiming that Tzoorba is a mamzer?
In any event, I enjoyed the Torahdik discussion.
Litvak,
Unfortunately, besides learning wrong pshat and not bringing any raayos from halacha, you have been megaleh ponim batorah shelo cehalacha.
First of all, the Chasam Sofer clearly states it was the Menorah that was lit. According to you, he learned wrong pshat Chas Vesholom.
I hope none of your talmidim are reading this so they don’t get corrupted by the twisted pshat.
You are learning wrong pshat in the Brisker Rav. There is no mention of the NAIS of the menorah in al hanisim but the hadlakas neiros is of the Menorah according to him and the vast majority of meforshim.
You twist the poshut pshat of al hanisim to defend with weak arguments a practice that is very questionable and probably a bracha levatala.
Your whole attitude of condescension when you have all the wrong peshatim and not a shred of evidence in halacha is unfitting for an ehrlecher yid and certainly for a so called Rosh Kollel. Your implicit name calling is also uncalled for and improper.
I am not mochel you for your name calling and offensive attitude unless you ask for mechila.
Litvak,
The Chasam Sofer had no problem with chatzros plural. There were many chatzeiros in the mikdash.
You have no problem calling Yerushalaim kodshecha but you have one calling other parts of the mikdash kodshecha?
I again claim that you have no mekor except for Lubavitcher sources that learn this pshat to bolster their practice.
Tzoorba, you say that you are not mochel me for my name calling and offensive attitude unless I ask for mechila.
I was mochel you because a Talmid Chochom can be mochel al kvodo since it is Toraso (his Torah).
Generally an Am Haaretz can’t be mochel al kvodo since he has no ownership (ba’alus) over his am haratzus.
You however have full ownership of your am haratzus and therefore have the ability to be mochel.
As such I ask you to be mochel me for pointing out that you are a complete am haaretz.
Litvak,
You are not worth talking to. The only reason I would respond is to refute your numerous errors and distortions of the Torah.
The yomim noraim are coming. Its time for you to do teshuva.
Tzoorba says: The yomim noraim are coming. Its time for you to do teshuva.
It’s time for me to do teshuva, that’s true. Indeed this is a time for ALL Yidden to do teshuva.
Like you, the Ben-Rasha (in the Hagada) also says: “Lochem” – v’lo loy. “For you” – but not for himself. L’fi shehotzie atzmo min haklal – kofar b’ikar.
Look at your “progress”: You started out with negative comments against some Yidden (the Chabad Chassidim and their Rebbe z”l) and you ended up using words of the Ben-Rasha and being a kofer b’ikar.
You had a ta’avah (a negative desire) to trash with your words a hanhogah tova, and then you had ga’avah (negative pride) to refuse accepting the emes, and finally you conclude with kfirah – words that disengage you from klal yisroel!
For those of you interested in the emes and not in slander and twisted, false peshatim, I am going to review the pertinent questions here related to lighting a menorah in public.
1. No source in halacha has been offered for the practice of lighting menoros in public. No other group in clal Yisroel does it. There are many instances where this causes sina to Yidden such as this case where the people of the city are being forced to work on the Menorah against their will. One sincere Lubavitcher on this forum also indicated that this level of coercion was wrong. In many cases, they have created a situation where the goyim are not allowed to put up their symbols and the Menora was put up. This is certainly against daas torah.
2. Bringing a non conventional pshat in al hanisim does not substitute for solid sources in halacha.
3. The simple pshat that rov minyan ubinyan of clal Yisroel accepts in al hanisim is that hadliku neiros means the Menorah. They are not chas veshalom am haaretzim for learning proper pshat.
The Chasam Sofer, Rogatchover and Brisker Rov did not learn the pshat that chatzros kodsecha means Yerushalaim. The Chasam Sofer learns a novel pshat where he says that it was the Menorah but it was not lit in its normal place but in the chatzar bais hamikdosh. He does not refer to any lighting elsewhere.
The Rogatchover, who was a Lubavitcher, also did not learn that they lit outside of the mikdash. He was mechadesh that they lit an extra lighting for pirsmei nisa in the chatzar hamikdash.
The Brisker Rov does not learn the pshat that they lit outside for pirsumei nisa because that would directly contradict his pshat that there is no mention of the nais. If they lit outside for pirsumei nisa this is a direct indication of a nais while lighting of the Menorah was a standard practice and does not allude to any nais.
Additionally, there is no reason why Yerushalaim should be any different than any other place in the inyan of hadlaka once you take it out of the mikdash. Even if you accept the pshat with no source that they it outside, it could simply be referring to the lighting that we do normally al pesach habayis.
Anyone with an open mind and a rayach Torah will see that this is the emes. If anyone wishes to offer some other legitimate source for this practice, I am willing to listen.
I followed this debate. Litvak won. Tzoorba lost (badly).
Anonymous 5:12,
What are your specific objections to the arguments that I put forward?