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Jerusalem - Chasidic And Lithuanian Rabbis Issue Ban On Chabad 'Simchas Bais HaShoeva'

Published on: October 7, 2008 09:29 AM
By: shturem.org
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Jerusalem - A printed announcement in today’s Israel Hamodia newspaper has caused confusion within the ranks of the local Chabad Rabbonim.

The ad is signed by Rabbonim and Admorim, forbids the Simchas Bais HaShoeva festivities to take place outdoors. Until now, Admorim refrained from signing such advertisements. The undersigned are against all and any events that take place outdoors, even with the best type of separation between men and women. They state that such events must take place either in shuls with a completely separate Ezras Noshim, or in halls with a separate hall for women, and separate entrances and approaches. The Rabbis who signed are: The Admorim from Ger, Tsanz, Sadigura,Vishnitz and Belz, and Rabbis Wosner,Gestetner,Tzadka,Aurebach,Hager,Baadani,Lefkowitz,Steinman,Elyashiv,Kanievsky and Karelitz.

Shturem spoke with several of Rabbonei Anash in Yerushalyim and heard various responses. Rabbi Zev Dov Slonim, member of the Bais Din explained that it is impossible to come out against all the Rabbonim. He feels that there must be a meeting to discuss this responsibly, and find a way to incorporate the Rebbe’s will without going against the Rabbonim.

Rabbi Tuvia Blau was also approached to give his opinion on this controversial matter. Before responding about the matter at hand, he made some pointed remarks about the Chabad websites: “This is something improper and negative, since anyone wishing to surf freely receives legitimacy to do so via these sites. In addition, the websites contain content of an inferior level, pictures of women and talkbacks from anonymous teens that attack others.”

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That being said, Rabbi Blau stated that in his opinion, the Simchas Bais HaShoeva in Shikun Chabad should be cancelled, but in non charedi neighborhoods and cities they should be celebrated as scheduled.

“Without a doubt we must fulfill the Rebbe’s horoa of dancing in the streets, but the purpose of the event in Shikun Chabad organized by Tzach is to be mezake –not Anash, but- the charedim in the area. Thousands came, attended and danced in the streets, and during the years we have accomplished our purpose.

Rabbi Yosef Yitzchok Aharonov and Rabbi Naftoli Roth are to be commended for keeping strict segregation between men and women, making sure that it was utterly impossible to have any slip-ups.

Last year only Litvishe Rabbonim signed the ban, and the chassidishe crowd participated, together with unaffiliated Jews. This year, since –for some reason- the Admorim signed as well, including great admirers of the Rebbe as the Gerrer and Sadigura Rebbes; we will not go and debate the issue with them. If no one will participate, what is the point of hosting it at all? If only Anash and some religious nationalists attend, and not charedim, we haven’t fulfilled the purpose and will of the Rebbe. I repeat and emphasize that in all other places, the events must go on as usual. And in Yerushalayim we must host the Simchas Bais HaShoevea in a venue where charedim can also participate, but not in a charedi neighborhood.”

Rabbi Blau adds that the Rebbe never opposed other Gedolim.

Other suggestions came from Rabbi Avrohom Michoel Halperin, Rav of the French Hill and a member of Bais Din. He told Shturem that it is forbidden to oppose the Rabbonim, and the event can be transferred indoors, so that there can be ample tznius control, while bringing a car with music out on the street. That way the Rebbe’s horoa will be carried out.

Another important Lubavitcher personage suggested moving the festivities over to the Kosel compound, which has the two elements necessary: it is also outdoors, and provides the tznius arrangements needed. No one will be angered, and there are always plenty of people on hand.

A Rav who is a member of Bais Din- not from Yerushalayim- was extremely firm in his position. “By no means are we to stop the Simchas Bais HaShoeva. Who are we to listen to, the Rav or the talmid? We have clear horoas from the Rebbe to celebrate on the streets, especially during the Hakehel year. It is absolutely forbidden to cancel the outdoor events.”



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Read Comments (67)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Oct 07, 2008 at 09:53 AM Anonymous Says:

They should move the one in Crown Heights indoors as well. All the rif raf comes and no amount of Mechitzas will help

2

 Oct 07, 2008 at 09:49 AM CR Says:

That's today's "gedeilim" for you. If it moves, ban it. If it stops make a GeMaCh to collect charity for it.

3

 Oct 07, 2008 at 09:41 AM Continue as Scheduled Says:

Utzu Eitzah v'Sufar!

Although I think that talking with these Rabbonim is it good thing. They may not even know their names are signed.

4

 Oct 07, 2008 at 09:39 AM Chabad Lady Says:

This is one ban I agree on. Simchas Bais Hashoeva has become a disgrace on the Lubavitch community. It is disgusting what goes on there. I don't let my children go. They should go indoors & have 1 location for the men & 1 for the women.

5

 Oct 07, 2008 at 10:09 AM Isaac Says:

I just find it interesting that no one has ever said that we should cut down on public celebrations because it does not let people sleep and causes havoc and garbage. Chillul Hashem is not a good enough reason?

6

 Oct 07, 2008 at 10:40 AM mark Says:

why dont they ban dancing

7

 Oct 07, 2008 at 10:50 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
mark Says:

why dont they ban dancing

give it a year, they will eventually

8

 Oct 07, 2008 at 10:40 AM Disagree!!! Says:

Where does anyone take the guts from to even think about stopping the Simchas Beis Hashoeva... If an individual feels that it's not modest enough for them (if they are coming to look at the girls, nothing is going to help) then let them not come.
The Horoa was to dance in the streets. if some Ra Bonim would like to make indoor celebrations too, they can.
BTW, I'm curious to know what would these RaBonim say when the Beis Hamikdosh is here and the celebrations will be in the streets and the "Bnos Yerushlayaim" will dance on the 15th of Av... will these RaBonim oppose the Sanhedrin too???

9

 Oct 07, 2008 at 10:39 AM Kotel Prayer Says:

"important Lubavitcher personage suggested moving the festivities over to the Kosel compoundand were it provides the tznius arrangements needed"

Can you tell me exactly how you can arrange the tznius at the Kotel compound? You can hardly enter the kotel plaza or go to the bathroom without bumping into a bunch of women etc.

10

 Oct 07, 2008 at 11:12 AM Anonymous Says:

I think next we ban Hacnosos Sefer Torah in the streets and next wedding Chupas on the streets , What else??

11

 Oct 07, 2008 at 11:22 AM Yechi Says:

Why don't these guys make a ban on the next genius to make a ban. These people need to find a better purpose in their lives then place their chumras on everyone else.

12

 Oct 07, 2008 at 11:38 AM woke up Says:

I sleep in my Succah and I used to be regularly woken up at 2 am by local Lubavitch simchas bais hashoeva in the street.

13

 Oct 07, 2008 at 12:00 PM Gefilte Fish Says:

Reply to #8  
Disagree!!! Says:

Where does anyone take the guts from to even think about stopping the Simchas Beis Hashoeva... If an individual feels that it's not modest enough for them (if they are coming to look at the girls, nothing is going to help) then let them not come.
The Horoa was to dance in the streets. if some Ra Bonim would like to make indoor celebrations too, they can.
BTW, I'm curious to know what would these RaBonim say when the Beis Hamikdosh is here and the celebrations will be in the streets and the "Bnos Yerushlayaim" will dance on the 15th of Av... will these RaBonim oppose the Sanhedrin too???

First of all the dancing on the 15th of Av did not take place in the streets, rather in the vinyards outside of Jerusalem, and it wasn't a dance club style even though you would like to be the fact, it wasn't.

Second, if you brought up the times of the Bais Hamikdash, look up what took place by the simchas bais hashoaiva in the Bais Hamikdash itself, the gemara says that before sukkos they used to build special mechitzos for the event so it shouldn't come to the mingling of the sexes. you dont have to believe me for it, you can look it up yourself.

14

 Oct 07, 2008 at 11:45 AM I Says:

Does Avraham Fried still sing in crown heights? if so is it every night or one night?

15

 Oct 07, 2008 at 11:42 AM Yossele Says:

Yes! Finally!
Another ban...!
Keep 'em comin'...!

16

 Oct 07, 2008 at 12:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Yes what goes on in Crown Hights is a disgrace and I am sure the Rebbi did not want this.

17

 Oct 07, 2008 at 12:47 PM continuation of simchas Beis hashoeiva to continue Says:

Rabbonei Chabad, I beg for the sake of Klal Yisroel that want to do the right thing in Hashem’s eyes and you know that Hashem wants simchas Beis Hashoeva in the streets because that is what the Rebbe wanted, please stand for the Rebbe's kovod, your kovod as Rabbonim, not because you are looking for it but for Hashem’s sake and make this Simchas beis hashoeiva for those that would come in the streets as the Rebbe's instructions and make sure that the concerns that other Rabbonim have should be taken in consideration.
To be melamed Zchus on them, their shita is one of isolation and because they either don't learn Chassidus or they don't have it developed enough, they don't have the spiritual strength to make Simchas beis Hashoeiva and concerts etc, to happen right, but Chabad has it.
This is a time to show all the strength that the Torah gave you Rabbonei Chabad and make it happen and in the right way.
A ksiva vachasima tova for all klal Yisroel and it should be fulfilled the posuk od Yishoma be orei Yehuda "ubechutzois" yerushalaim koil sosoin vekoil simcha koil Choson (Hashem) vekoil kala (idn)

18

 Oct 07, 2008 at 12:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
Gefilte Fish Says:

First of all the dancing on the 15th of Av did not take place in the streets, rather in the vinyards outside of Jerusalem, and it wasn't a dance club style even though you would like to be the fact, it wasn't.

Second, if you brought up the times of the Bais Hamikdash, look up what took place by the simchas bais hashoaiva in the Bais Hamikdash itself, the gemara says that before sukkos they used to build special mechitzos for the event so it shouldn't come to the mingling of the sexes. you dont have to believe me for it, you can look it up yourself.

That means that there is a way how to do it right, but it also means that you are not suppused to ban it

19

 Oct 07, 2008 at 12:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
I Says:

Does Avraham Fried still sing in crown heights? if so is it every night or one night?

usually on the first night chol hamoed

20

 Oct 07, 2008 at 12:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Ban everything, Go around the streets of Jerusalem beating up women in the name of G-D ....yup, this is really gonna bring Moshiach......

21

 Oct 07, 2008 at 12:54 PM jay34@aol.com Says:

maybe lipa will be there???

22

 Oct 07, 2008 at 01:00 PM Joseph Says:

I hate bans, but have to admit that when I went to the one in CH many years ago (mid 80's), I was surprised that they could make such a ruckus while people are trying to go to sleep. Nobody, but nobody has a right to steal another person's sleep. Period.

23

 Oct 07, 2008 at 12:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Is this letter written only about Chabad or about all outdoor celebrations where men and women might mingle?

24

 Oct 07, 2008 at 01:04 PM I was in Crown Heights! Says:

The simcha in Crown Heights has become a hangout for off the derech youth who come there to hook up and smoke weed etc.
In Eretz Yisroel they will not allow it!
I also don't understand the "big deal", make it in an indoors hall! The Rabbonim have no problem with it!
For the Lubavitcher here who may not have a good grasp on the Rabbonim signed:They are the from the greatest poskim.Rav Vozner,Rav Elyoshiv and Rav Shteinman.Careful before you use bad language .

25

 Oct 07, 2008 at 01:14 PM The beggining of this letter was Says:

Reply to #17  
continuation of simchas Beis hashoeiva to continue Says:

Rabbonei Chabad, I beg for the sake of Klal Yisroel that want to do the right thing in Hashem’s eyes and you know that Hashem wants simchas Beis Hashoeva in the streets because that is what the Rebbe wanted, please stand for the Rebbe's kovod, your kovod as Rabbonim, not because you are looking for it but for Hashem’s sake and make this Simchas beis hashoeiva for those that would come in the streets as the Rebbe's instructions and make sure that the concerns that other Rabbonim have should be taken in consideration.
To be melamed Zchus on them, their shita is one of isolation and because they either don't learn Chassidus or they don't have it developed enough, they don't have the spiritual strength to make Simchas beis Hashoeiva and concerts etc, to happen right, but Chabad has it.
This is a time to show all the strength that the Torah gave you Rabbonei Chabad and make it happen and in the right way.
A ksiva vachasima tova for all klal Yisroel and it should be fulfilled the posuk od Yishoma be orei Yehuda "ubechutzois" yerushalaim koil sosoin vekoil simcha koil Choson (Hashem) vekoil kala (idn)

The beggining of this letter was as follows: please read this part first and then go to the top of this comment.
I think that Rabbonei Chabad have a say as other Rabbonim and Admurim have.
I think that some of he Rabbonei Chabad are inclined to in order not to make a machlokes or because they don't understand their stand, to listen to the Rabbonim that signed this ban.
I think that the disregard of the other Rabbonim and Admurim to the Rabbonei Chabad by not notifying them on what they were about to do is not right. (Thus not from the Kdusha side)
I think that this ban is a continuation of the ban on concerts.
If there are tznius concerns, they should be acknowledged and taken care of, but Rabbonei Chabad don't have to be part of that, as they never were and they never should be.
In other words the fact that Rabbonei Chabad did not get notified in advance is because the other Rabbonim know that Rabbonei Chabad won't subscribe to Ban those events, but if necessary just make the needed corrections, so these Rabbis and Admorim wanted to catch Rabbonei Chabad by surprise and have them cave to their mistaken position (according to the Lubavitcher Rebbe's instructions)

26

 Oct 07, 2008 at 01:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

usually on the first night chol hamoed

so this year it's wednesday night?

27

 Oct 07, 2008 at 01:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
I was in Crown Heights! Says:

The simcha in Crown Heights has become a hangout for off the derech youth who come there to hook up and smoke weed etc.
In Eretz Yisroel they will not allow it!
I also don't understand the "big deal", make it in an indoors hall! The Rabbonim have no problem with it!
For the Lubavitcher here who may not have a good grasp on the Rabbonim signed:They are the from the greatest poskim.Rav Vozner,Rav Elyoshiv and Rav Shteinman.Careful before you use bad language .

You are right about not using bad language, but these poskim should have been careful not to oppose the wishes of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, they should have contacted Rabbonei Chabad, which it seems they didn't, to consult with them and let them know about their concerns.
At that point Rabbonei Chabad would have made them aware of the Rebbe's position, would have taken care of the concerns expressed by the other Rabbonim and probably the other Rabbonim would have never come out with such a ban or would have included words that acknowledge Chabad's position as valid, even though not for their followers.
But they didn't call Rabbanei Chabad, and it caught Rabbonei Chabad by surprise and definetly the other Rabbonim intent was that their opinion should be final, and not to consider Rabbonei Chabad opinion, and I hope I'm mistaken, the intent was to lower Rabbonei Chabad stand.
This is wrong!!!!
I wish I was surprised about this behavior but I'm not.
The only outcome is that this ban only lowers their own stand, I feel sad for the Kovoid Hatorah , and hope that the real kovoid Hatorah comes to light.
"Isron haor min Hachoshech, keisron hachochma min ha......."
Hashem didn't ban gold in the Bais Hamikdosh because it was used by others for avoda zora, nobody should ban dancing in the streets, but just take all the precautions .
If the Lubavitcher Rebbe said to dance in the streets, there is for sure a way how to do it right.
A gmar Chsima tova.

28

 Oct 07, 2008 at 01:39 PM If Lubavitch don't cancel... Says:

If Lubavitch do not cancel their outdoors simcha that Gedoley harabonim and admorim have ruled is prohibited, it will be proof that they do not belong to Heimishe Yidden.
With all the ramifications
Lubavitch, there will be consequences to a zilzul in gedoley harabonim

29

 Oct 07, 2008 at 01:44 PM AK Says:

woke up - They don't care to wake you up sleeping in the Sukkah, the same Rebbe who said its a "mitzva" to dance in the street, held it's an "aveira" to sleep in the Sukkah!

30

 Oct 07, 2008 at 01:43 PM Anonymous Says:

It's very simple, if it brings pritzus then the Rabbonim are right and Lubavitch should acquiesce. If it's not true and it doesn't bring pritzus and the Rabbonim were misinformed, then the Lubavitcher Rabbonim should visit these Rabbonim and clear it up with them. I have a feeling that someone with a personal vendetta against Lubavitch is behind this and painted for the Rabbonim a jaundiced view of the situation.

31

 Oct 07, 2008 at 01:58 PM Anonymous Says:

ak, you don't know what you are talking about. go learn a few sichos before you have the chutzpah to say that the Rebbe called sleeping in the sukkah and AVeirah!

32

 Oct 07, 2008 at 01:57 PM Anonymous Says:

We were dancing in the streets when the Rebbe was here physically. If there were problems with the tznius the Rebbe would have said something about it.
Also the Rebbe's instructions were to dance in the streets until the street itself is dancing. Today there are more provisions for tznius, etc then years ago. I am surprised that there are Rabonim in Lubavitch who are listening to others and not to Rebbe who is their leader. The Rebbe wanted everybody dancing outside not inside. If people do not want to attend that is their choice but to go against the will of the Rebbe in something that he strongly empasized every night of Sukos for years just goes aginst the grain of true chassidim of the Rebbe. Put up safeguards and good mechitzos but do not give in just because all these Rabonim said so. If the Rebbe would have listened to the Litvish Rabonim years ago there would be no mivtzoim and no Chabad houses.

33

 Oct 07, 2008 at 02:11 PM Cohen Says:

THis is nothing more then another anti Chabad action. One of the posts was right on the money. THese rabonim did not initiate a conversation with Lubavitcher Rabonim. What did they do? They issued a ban! When? Days before the event. This is purely political and has very little to do with halacha. It would be a big mistake to move the simchas beis hoshoeiva indors. I am also not sure that these rabonim need to be consulted because of the way they handled it themselves, rather they should be informed ion what the Chabad rabonim psak is and what it is based on.

34

 Oct 07, 2008 at 02:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #30  
Anonymous Says:

It's very simple, if it brings pritzus then the Rabbonim are right and Lubavitch should acquiesce. If it's not true and it doesn't bring pritzus and the Rabbonim were misinformed, then the Lubavitcher Rabbonim should visit these Rabbonim and clear it up with them. I have a feeling that someone with a personal vendetta against Lubavitch is behind this and painted for the Rabbonim a jaundiced view of the situation.

You said "I have a feeling that someone with a personal vendetta against Lubavitch is behind this and painted for the Rabbonim a jaundiced view of the situation."
This is justifying their lack of insight. where is the fifth chelek of the Shulchan oruch, common sense. a rov that deserves to be called as such needs to understand in between the lines , and not to let themselves be lead by others.

35

 Oct 07, 2008 at 02:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
If Lubavitch don't cancel... Says:

If Lubavitch do not cancel their outdoors simcha that Gedoley harabonim and admorim have ruled is prohibited, it will be proof that they do not belong to Heimishe Yidden.
With all the ramifications
Lubavitch, there will be consequences to a zilzul in gedoley harabonim

what you don't seem to be taking in consideration is that the Gedolim didn't take Rabbonei Chabad in consideration. That means that they wanted to put Chabad in a position of having to decide what you said.
Those poskim and admurim by not asking Chabad's position it seems they already decided.

That I call a zilzul of Rabbonei Chabad that cannot be tolerated, but the main issue is the Zilzul of the kovoid hatorah in the eyes of the masses that this Rabbonim are inflicting on themselves by baning things that are mutar al pi Torah if done properly and deciding not to listen (I hope mistakenly for not considering or not having the information etc) to theTzadik's yesod Holam Daas Torah The Lubavitcher Rebbe

36

 Oct 07, 2008 at 02:27 PM bigwheeel Says:

Reply to #5  
Isaac Says:

I just find it interesting that no one has ever said that we should cut down on public celebrations because it does not let people sleep and causes havoc and garbage. Chillul Hashem is not a good enough reason?

It is. But they didn't get there yet!!!

37

 Oct 07, 2008 at 02:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
If Lubavitch don't cancel... Says:

If Lubavitch do not cancel their outdoors simcha that Gedoley harabonim and admorim have ruled is prohibited, it will be proof that they do not belong to Heimishe Yidden.
With all the ramifications
Lubavitch, there will be consequences to a zilzul in gedoley harabonim

They should listen to the horaaos of their own rabbonim?

38

 Oct 07, 2008 at 02:16 PM michal Says:

Reply to #32  
Anonymous Says:

We were dancing in the streets when the Rebbe was here physically. If there were problems with the tznius the Rebbe would have said something about it.
Also the Rebbe's instructions were to dance in the streets until the street itself is dancing. Today there are more provisions for tznius, etc then years ago. I am surprised that there are Rabonim in Lubavitch who are listening to others and not to Rebbe who is their leader. The Rebbe wanted everybody dancing outside not inside. If people do not want to attend that is their choice but to go against the will of the Rebbe in something that he strongly empasized every night of Sukos for years just goes aginst the grain of true chassidim of the Rebbe. Put up safeguards and good mechitzos but do not give in just because all these Rabonim said so. If the Rebbe would have listened to the Litvish Rabonim years ago there would be no mivtzoim and no Chabad houses.

Yasher koach! I agree with you 100%. Let the Simchas Bais Hashoeva stand.

39

 Oct 07, 2008 at 03:21 PM Ridiculous! Says:

Ridiculous! The simchas beis hashoeva in question had a 12 ft mechitzah. The woman could NOT be seen or see the dancing. They had to watch it on a screen.

Some of these admorim treat women like 2nd class citizens!

40

 Oct 07, 2008 at 03:18 PM bitachon Says:

These are giants in Torah. Be careful before you make fun or minimize what they said. They are not the first to ban or worry about this sect. They are our enei haeida and they are right over and over. Be very careful.
In the early 80's Reb Berenbaum from the Mir A"H came to the Mir on Purim night saw boys and girls together and immediately stopped the music and shut down the B"M.
Don't be mekayem leitzana achas docheh meiah tochachos and yarshen gehenom ezpass style.

41

 Oct 07, 2008 at 03:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Why is everyone assuming this was directed specifically at Chabad?
The idea of Simchas Beis Hasho'eivah got lost & it became a synonym with "concert". These concerts were happening all over Eretz Yisro'el last Sukkos. The feelings of the Israeli Rabbonim towards concerts are not new.

42

 Oct 07, 2008 at 03:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #40  
bitachon Says:

These are giants in Torah. Be careful before you make fun or minimize what they said. They are not the first to ban or worry about this sect. They are our enei haeida and they are right over and over. Be very careful.
In the early 80's Reb Berenbaum from the Mir A"H came to the Mir on Purim night saw boys and girls together and immediately stopped the music and shut down the B"M.
Don't be mekayem leitzana achas docheh meiah tochachos and yarshen gehenom ezpass style.

With all due respect the Rebbe was also a giant in torah and as much as you refuse to admit he knew more than in nigleh, nistaer, halach, medrash, etc. than the people who put out this ban. The Rebbe never inteded that this should cause pritzus and all that is needed is precautions to be taken as in the past to keep the men & women separate. Their is no need to ban something which the Rebbe instituted and was passionate about for reasons that are beyond your understanding, my understanding and the understanding of these rabonim & admorim.

43

 Oct 07, 2008 at 04:21 PM Yankel Says:

Way to go...seperate the guys from the girls and complain about a shidduch crisis and young people who are socially & emotionally crippled. And somewhere down the line choose a young boy for to vacate their emotional isolation prepertrated upon their young lives by men disguised as righteous ones

44

 Oct 07, 2008 at 05:07 PM Gideon Says:

Way to go anon 3:57!
You are so sure the Rebbe was greater than all the rabbonim signed but won't even sign your name??
The issue if the Rebbe was greater has nothing to do with this psak,btw.
It's simple:Gedolei harabbonim paskened it's ossur, the Rebbe has not directly argued with them since he is not here.We are left with the general idea in psak, that when a set of rabbonim paskens a psak ,knowing full well a psak of a previous rov halocha kebasroey.
To all those who claim that the rabbonim don't know what the Rebbe held:Nice try.Wrong!This is the second year that such a psak is coming out! Last year it was from Litvishe rabbonim, this year gedoiley haposkim and Admoirem agreed.
As someone already said earlier ,If Chabad do not heed this psak they have proven they are "mechutz lemachaneh hayereim"

45

 Oct 07, 2008 at 05:15 PM Berl Says:

The Gemorah tells that originally there was no separation between men and women for the simchas Beis HaShoeiva, as people became lax in tznius the Chazal tried men inside women outside and it did not help , so they tried women inside and men outside and it did not prevent pritzus , so even though It was forbidden to add or detract any part of the structure of the Beis Hamikdash, the pritzus was so prevalent, a balcony was installed for the women for the Simchas Beis Hashoeiva. When the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT"L said to dance in the streets, pritzus was not prevelant, today it is
When the Rebbe ZT"L danced in the streets no one would have dared to mix with women in his presence!

46

 Oct 07, 2008 at 05:12 PM anon770 Says:

Is it possible that the situation in society has changed since the Rebbe instituted dancing in the streets and that He would also stop it today? Perhaps we need to get with the times and not get mired in the past. The teens of today are not the same as last decade, and the nisyonas are different. If all the gedolim feel that in todays age the outdoor simchas bais hashoeva is spiritually harmful, why would we think that the Rebbe wouldn't have seen it the same way. As a case in point, the Admorim didn't sign till this year. Apparently they ffel that now the time has come. Lubavitch prides itself on being able to adapt to the times, but I think that it is doing the opposite in this case.

47

 Oct 07, 2008 at 05:30 PM bitachon Says:

#42

It is not a competition which Rebbe knows more. BTW who are you to say that the Gerrer rebbe or Rav Wosner know less that the Lubavitcher Rebbe. I wouldn't bet against the gerrere rebbe.
Unfortunately, Lubavitch is a flock without a leader and this is a perfect example of lack of direction and leadership. Maybe if the rebbe was around he would ban it. But he's not here and our gedolim must be madrich. It's a chaval that we think we are smarter and you don't even know what a happier person you would be if you would listen to them.

48

 Oct 07, 2008 at 07:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Why weren't the Rabbonei Chabad included in the discussion?
Why was this given out just a few days before the event when there is no time to make changes?
How about making Chuppas/weddings outdoors?

49

 Oct 07, 2008 at 07:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Why not make the same precautions used at an indoor simcha to an outside simcha? Can I no longer make a wedding outside with a proper mechitza?

50

 Oct 07, 2008 at 08:22 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
I was in Crown Heights! Says:

The simcha in Crown Heights has become a hangout for off the derech youth who come there to hook up and smoke weed etc.
In Eretz Yisroel they will not allow it!
I also don't understand the "big deal", make it in an indoors hall! The Rabbonim have no problem with it!
For the Lubavitcher here who may not have a good grasp on the Rabbonim signed:They are the from the greatest poskim.Rav Vozner,Rav Elyoshiv and Rav Shteinman.Careful before you use bad language .

Depends which area "you" choose to hang out during the Simchas bies Hashoieva

51

 Oct 07, 2008 at 08:07 PM Yossele Says:

Reply to #47  
bitachon Says:

#42

It is not a competition which Rebbe knows more. BTW who are you to say that the Gerrer rebbe or Rav Wosner know less that the Lubavitcher Rebbe. I wouldn't bet against the gerrere rebbe.
Unfortunately, Lubavitch is a flock without a leader and this is a perfect example of lack of direction and leadership. Maybe if the rebbe was around he would ban it. But he's not here and our gedolim must be madrich. It's a chaval that we think we are smarter and you don't even know what a happier person you would be if you would listen to them.

Chabad kehillos have their own rabbonim and mashpiim that bear the burden of leadership.

While it's important to be respectful, there's no reason for Chabad to give priority to the takanos of outside rabbonim.

The rabbonim who signed on to the ban may be big chachomim, but they are totally insensitive to the darcei horaah and hashkafos of their kehillos.

litvaks discard the takanos of sefardishe or chassidishe rabbonim without a second thought. What's the difference?

52

 Oct 07, 2008 at 08:03 PM Yehuda Gottesman Says:

Reply to #44  
Gideon Says:

Way to go anon 3:57!
You are so sure the Rebbe was greater than all the rabbonim signed but won't even sign your name??
The issue if the Rebbe was greater has nothing to do with this psak,btw.
It's simple:Gedolei harabbonim paskened it's ossur, the Rebbe has not directly argued with them since he is not here.We are left with the general idea in psak, that when a set of rabbonim paskens a psak ,knowing full well a psak of a previous rov halocha kebasroey.
To all those who claim that the rabbonim don't know what the Rebbe held:Nice try.Wrong!This is the second year that such a psak is coming out! Last year it was from Litvishe rabbonim, this year gedoiley haposkim and Admoirem agreed.
As someone already said earlier ,If Chabad do not heed this psak they have proven they are "mechutz lemachaneh hayereim"

If you want to know my name you now know it. You do not have one person in this generation who was as knowlegeabe as the Rebbe in all aspects of the revealed & hidden torah. Once again, the Rebbe said he wanted dancing in the street not insde. It is up to the organizers to put up proper mechitzos and supervision. You do not put on a ban on something that you do not understand why it was instituted in the first place. You put in safeguards to make sure that proper decorum is followed. And to say that Chabad is michutz lamacanah is nothing new since many in the Litvish world have been saying that for the past 200 odd years.
But suprisingly I see that now they are into kiruv, kvitelech to their rabbonim & rosh yeshivas for brochos. things which they were vehemently against in the past.

53

 Oct 07, 2008 at 07:27 PM Anonymous Says:

How is this different than dancing at a wedding with a Mechitza in between?
Those that want to congregate in the lobby, do so.

Why is it different if it is done outdoors??????

54

 Oct 07, 2008 at 07:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #47  
bitachon Says:

#42

It is not a competition which Rebbe knows more. BTW who are you to say that the Gerrer rebbe or Rav Wosner know less that the Lubavitcher Rebbe. I wouldn't bet against the gerrere rebbe.
Unfortunately, Lubavitch is a flock without a leader and this is a perfect example of lack of direction and leadership. Maybe if the rebbe was around he would ban it. But he's not here and our gedolim must be madrich. It's a chaval that we think we are smarter and you don't even know what a happier person you would be if you would listen to them.

We have Rabbonim.
Yes we wish we had the Rebbe to consult directly.
Nevertheless we have our own Rabbonim to consult and these Gedolim paskened against them without their day in court.
Is that halachakly correct?

55

 Oct 07, 2008 at 08:45 PM Anonymous Says:

If the Chabad Rabbonim go ahead with the Simchas Beis Hashoeva, then the Chabad community has every right to attend. There has always been different opinions within Frumme Yidden, and this is no different. Each community follows their Rabbonim. People from communities whose Rabbonim signed should not attend.
I have not been to these events in E"Y, but from what I have read about previous years, they are very strict with the Mechitza etc. If so, it is not something that goes against open halacha. It is a matter of a "Gzeira". If so, each community should follow their Rabbonim.

56

 Oct 07, 2008 at 07:06 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #46  
anon770 Says:

Is it possible that the situation in society has changed since the Rebbe instituted dancing in the streets and that He would also stop it today? Perhaps we need to get with the times and not get mired in the past. The teens of today are not the same as last decade, and the nisyonas are different. If all the gedolim feel that in todays age the outdoor simchas bais hashoeva is spiritually harmful, why would we think that the Rebbe wouldn't have seen it the same way. As a case in point, the Admorim didn't sign till this year. Apparently they ffel that now the time has come. Lubavitch prides itself on being able to adapt to the times, but I think that it is doing the opposite in this case.

Those Gedolim didn't consult Chabad rabbonim get it?
They have an authority that was ignored, the worst thing is that if Chabad was being judged or their activities, true Gedolim would have called them to discusse it and get them to agree or respectfully disagree.
Not involving them means trying to imposse their opinion on a all community that have their own Rabbonim and they know it or banning Chabad Rabbonim opinion.
What a chutzpa

57

 Oct 07, 2008 at 07:01 PM Arkeso demesano Says:

Reply to #47  
bitachon Says:

#42

It is not a competition which Rebbe knows more. BTW who are you to say that the Gerrer rebbe or Rav Wosner know less that the Lubavitcher Rebbe. I wouldn't bet against the gerrere rebbe.
Unfortunately, Lubavitch is a flock without a leader and this is a perfect example of lack of direction and leadership. Maybe if the rebbe was around he would ban it. But he's not here and our gedolim must be madrich. It's a chaval that we think we are smarter and you don't even know what a happier person you would be if you would listen to them.

The blatant ignoring of the Daas Torah of Chabad Rabbonim and their authority is the problem.
Get it.
Rabbonei Chabad must take all the precautions necessary to avoid problems and make simchas beis hashoeiva happen.
Arkeso demesano rings a bell?

58

 Oct 07, 2008 at 06:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #44  
Gideon Says:

Way to go anon 3:57!
You are so sure the Rebbe was greater than all the rabbonim signed but won't even sign your name??
The issue if the Rebbe was greater has nothing to do with this psak,btw.
It's simple:Gedolei harabbonim paskened it's ossur, the Rebbe has not directly argued with them since he is not here.We are left with the general idea in psak, that when a set of rabbonim paskens a psak ,knowing full well a psak of a previous rov halocha kebasroey.
To all those who claim that the rabbonim don't know what the Rebbe held:Nice try.Wrong!This is the second year that such a psak is coming out! Last year it was from Litvishe rabbonim, this year gedoiley haposkim and Admoirem agreed.
As someone already said earlier ,If Chabad do not heed this psak they have proven they are "mechutz lemachaneh hayereim"

What you don't want to acknowledge is that Rabbonei Chabad have a say on the matter that was obviously not taken in consideration.
Not consulting with them is an error from my perspective from those Gedolim. Unless subconciously they are trying to represent themselves as the only authority or at least those that organized their signing, but then the least they had to do is inquire about what Rabbonei Chabad think or may be able to do in order to correct those things they don't think appropiate, but ignoring them.
This doesn't look right.

59

 Oct 07, 2008 at 09:05 PM i was there Says:

i noticed that you all comment on this and that about the event there in shikun chabad
i was there last year and the provision they had there in place to seperate the men and the women were great there were solid walls seperateing the men and the women i would guess at least 10 feet tall

i am not sure that any of these rabonim or gedoilimsaw what was there last year or were there themselves. unfortunantly this is just like the other concert they banned .

the last time i checked the holy books you cannot pasken against somebody unless you give them their due day in beis din.

and about rabbi tuvia blau people know what the rebbe wrote about him. i will paraphrase thathe does notbelong in lubavitch and will destroy it. rabbiblau listen to to the rebbe and go away and keep your mouthshut. you do not represent lubavitch

may we all live in harmony and may look at us as one nation with one heart and one mind on this erev yoim kipur. and mayhe grant us all a good year in health wealth and yidishe nachas from our children

61

 Oct 07, 2008 at 11:44 PM Anonymous Says:

why didnt they consult with rabbonei chabad first. doesnt seem fair? im surprised belz and ger signed as well. i wonder what type of ramications this would have?

62

 Oct 08, 2008 at 12:20 AM Anonymous Says:

by not consulting with daas torah with rabbonei chabad, be littles and undermines the signers.

63

 Oct 08, 2008 at 04:24 AM Reuven Says:

These "Rabbonim" who are aquiesing to the ban aren't true Chassidim of the Rebbe. A genuine Anash Rav would hold that 'the buck stops here'. Once these Rebbes are banning a clear hoirah of the Rebbe, that should have made the Chabad Rabbonim to maintain the plans for the event. The fact that they see that the Rebbe's hoirah can now be vetoed by other Chassidic Rabbonimshould be enough to make them maintain the even

Signed,
A Chabadnik with shame.

64

 Oct 08, 2008 at 07:30 AM Kop Doktar Says:

When Rabbonim and Admurim sign on a ban, it has a very powerful spiritual strength...Chazal tell us that HKB"H joins with them to ratify the ban.

Rather than banning outdoor activities of Simcha, it would be wonderful if a ban is placed on funerals, which take place outdoors, in a mixed crowd, and no mechitza.
Of course, funerals are necassary, since people die, but for that there is a simple solution - ban dying. That's right - abolish the need for funerals by banning them.

To accomplish this, the Rabbonim and Admurim should decree that the time spent in Golus has expired and Hashem must send Moshiach NOW.

I ask, wouldn't that be better?

65

 Oct 08, 2008 at 07:39 AM I Get It Says:

Reply to #64  
Kop Doktar Says:

When Rabbonim and Admurim sign on a ban, it has a very powerful spiritual strength...Chazal tell us that HKB"H joins with them to ratify the ban.

Rather than banning outdoor activities of Simcha, it would be wonderful if a ban is placed on funerals, which take place outdoors, in a mixed crowd, and no mechitza.
Of course, funerals are necassary, since people die, but for that there is a simple solution - ban dying. That's right - abolish the need for funerals by banning them.

To accomplish this, the Rabbonim and Admurim should decree that the time spent in Golus has expired and Hashem must send Moshiach NOW.

I ask, wouldn't that be better?

Now THAT is using your Kop (and it's funny too)! I vote this the best comment I've read on this topic!! BEST COMMENT AWARD!!!

66

 Oct 08, 2008 at 11:17 AM Gelt makes the world go round Says:

Reply to #61  
Anonymous Says:

why didnt they consult with rabbonei chabad first. doesnt seem fair? im surprised belz and ger signed as well. i wonder what type of ramications this would have?

You should ask what incentive$ were given for them to sign.

67

 Oct 13, 2008 at 10:43 AM Yankel Podolsky Says:

Reply to #66  
Gelt makes the world go round Says:

You should ask what incentive$ were given for them to sign.

Examine the history of women participation in events or even davening.

Gerer and Belzer Shuls for years had no women sections and Shuls were for men only. The Rebbe's Tishen were for men only. Mosdos Chinuch were for boys only. The consequenses were grave. Gerer Girls were not going to be secluded and locked up. They ended up in Litvishe Mosdos and spent Shabbosim with Litvish friends. Worse thasn that they refused to marry Chassidishe Bochurim whom they viewed as Chenyoks. They had no interest in the Rebbeshe Tishen since they couldn't wittness what it was.
The Lev Simcha saw the Churban, as did the Belzer Rov. Chassidishe Girls Mosdos sprouted everywhere and large women's sections were built in all Shuls.
Girls want to enjoy Concerts and Simchas Beis Hashoeva with all the trimmings.
Forbid them to attend and they will find other places for entertainment.
I do support large Mechitzas etc etc. But a ban will only backfire.

68

 Nov 12, 2008 at 10:31 PM Roscoe Says:

What am I doing reading about this on the "issurnet" anywho?

69

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