New York – AP Report: NYC To Probe Secular Education At Orthodox Jewish Schools

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    FILE - In this Sept. 20, 2013 file photo, children and adults cross a street in front of a school bus in Borough Park, a neighborhood in the Brooklyn borough of New York that is home to many ultra-Orthodox Jewish families. Critics have charged for years that the rudimentary level of secular education at private yeshiva schools serving New York's Hasidic communities are deficient in teaching science, geography and math to grade school students. Now, for the first time, the city Department of Education is investigating more than three dozen of the schools to make sure their instruction is up to the most basic standards. (AP Photo/Bebeto Matthews, File)New York – There was no science, no geography and no math past multiplication at the ultra-Orthodox Jewish school Chaim Weber attended. And the only reason he ever heard of the American Revolution was when a seventh-grade teacher introduced it as “story time.”

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    Naftuli Moster said he never learned the words “cell” or “molecule” at the ultra-Orthodox schools he attended, where secular subjects were considered “unimportant or downright going against Judaism.”

    Now young adults, the two yeshiva graduates echo complaints critics have made for years about the rudimentary level of secular education at private schools serving New York’s Hasidic communities. Now, for the first time, the city Department of Education is investigating more than three dozen of the schools to make sure their instruction is up to the most basic standards.

    But even the advocates who called for the investigation question whether the city will be able to pierce the close-knit, insular Orthodox community to force meaningful change.

    “These schools have been operating for a very long time,” said Weber, one of 52 former students, parents or former teachers who signed a letter requesting the investigation into 39 yeshivas. “They have kind of perfected their method for pulling the wool over the eyes of authorities.”

    The investigation itself is shrouded in secrecy. The names of the specific yeshivas that are being targeted have not been released because of fears of retaliation. And aside from Weber and Moster, who agreed to speak out, the names of those who called for the probe have also not been publicly released.

    “I’m worried for my kids. They could be kicked out if I named the school,” said Weber, who said his 10-year-old son has learned simple addition but not subtraction.

    What is known is that 38 of the 39 yeshivas are in Brooklyn, the center of the city’s Hasidic community.

    State law mandates that the instruction in private schools must be at least substantially equivalent to what can be found in the area’s public schools, and the local district, in this case New York City, is given the oversight power.

    Calls to several Brooklyn yeshivas and messages to community representatives were not returned. Members of the ultra-Orthodox Jewish community closely adhere to tradition and tend to limit contact with outsiders.
    Naftuli Moster poses for a picture in the borough of Queens, New York, Thursday, Aug. 20, 2015. Moster said he never learned the words "cell" or "molecule" at the ultra-Orthodox schools he attended, where secular subjects were considered "unimportant or downright going against Judaism." For the first time, the New York city Department of Education is investigating more than three dozen of the schools to make sure their instruction is up to the most basic standards. (AP Photo/Seth Wenig)
    The push for secular education at the yeshivas has been spearheaded by an organization called Young Advocates for a Fair Education. Moster, its executive director, grew up in a Hasidic family with 17 kids and became an advocate for education after he enrolled at the College of Staten Island and saw how far behind he was.

    “If we were to compare these schools to some of the worst performing schools in America these would be worse,” Moster said. “We’re talking about a school that simply doesn’t teach the basics.”

    Yiddish is the first language in many of New York City’s ultra-Orthodox homes and the language of instruction in their yeshivas.

    Boys at the yeshivas receive just six hours a week of instruction in English, math and other secular subjects up to age 13, according to the letter to city and New York state officials requesting an investigation. Secular education stops at age 13 as boys devote themselves full time to Jewish religious texts. Girls get more secular schooling because they don’t study the Talmud.

    City Department of Education spokesman Harry Hartfield said last week that the department was finalizing requests that would be sent to the yeshivas for lesson plans and other materials.

    He said that if a district superintendent determines that a yeshiva is not providing substantially equivalent instruction, the superintendent will work with the school to develop a plan to fix deficiencies.

    Moster said that approach won’t uncover the truth. “These yeshivas are very good at producing whatever kind of proof you need,” he said.

    Advocates also fear that the city will be slow to act because some elected officials rely on ultra-Orthodox voting blocs.

    “They have political clout,” Weber said. “I’m not very optimistic that this will change a lot but you’ve got to try.”

    The attorney for Moster’s group, former New York Civil Liberties Union executive director Norman Siegel, said he will file a lawsuit if the investigation does not yield meaningful results.

    For ultra-Orthodox families, the cultural pressure to send their children to yeshivas, where tuition costs upward of $4,000 to $5,000 a year, is intense.

    “A public school would be so unthinkable,” Moster said. “It doesn’t even cross anybody’s mind.”

    But critics of the yeshiva system say the shoddy education dooms tens of thousands of New Yorkers to poverty.

    A 2011 study by the UJA-Federation of New York found that 45 percent of Hasidic households in the New York metro region were in poverty. Among households of six or more people the figure was 64 percent.

    The report said most of the households have at least one person working but “they are seriously constrained by low levels of secular education.”

    Weber said he overcame his yeshiva education by hiring private tutors. He eventually went on to college and now works for a real estate firm.

    “Eventually I did catch up,” he said. “But it was very hard.”


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    65 Comments
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    ModernLakewoodGuy
    ModernLakewoodGuy
    8 years ago

    What really needs to happen is the administrators of all these schools need to go to jail. They take government money earmarked for these secular curriculums, and instead they line their pockets, pay their cleaning ladies and buy sets of shas for the students. I dont think there is a single honest school administrator in all of boro park.

    stopthis
    stopthis
    8 years ago

    This moser and weber will never be successful people where our kids that dont learn what a cell is will be successful like we have seen the last 50 years u dont need to know english to be successful

    elyeh
    Noble Member
    elyeh
    8 years ago

    Emes.

    Shvitzer
    Shvitzer
    8 years ago

    Let the BOE fix their own problems I must’ve interviewed 75 different applicants that came to my factory from the PS system looking for a job. I always ask them if they know math. Of course they answer. I ask them how much is 12×12? Not one has answered 144. Talk about a problem

    8 years ago

    I don’t understand. No one ever complained. Comes in these two men and make a whole issue. And if someone is interested in learning more he can do so voluntary.

    samklib
    samklib
    8 years ago

    I feel very sorry for mr. Mostar that he missed out on a good education.
    But if he would ask the other 20 or so kids that went to school with him they would say we are all doing very well with the education we got

    shvigger
    shvigger
    8 years ago

    So Moster is working in real estate. I bet with his nebech’diga Yeshiva education he doesn’t realize that he never needed to waste four years in college to enter real estate. Does he need to know what a “cell” is to flip a deal? Just askin’

    bubble
    bubble
    8 years ago

    With all due respect you could have done after you finished your yeshiva learning. looks like they are looking for a quick buck by suing the yeshiva which gave them the best

    I too went to a Chasidisha school becauses thats what my parents zt’l felt was right for me I now hold A BS and am employed by major institution,

    If you want you can. When there is a will there is always a way..

    PaulinSaudi
    PaulinSaudi
    8 years ago

    The Board of Education is supposed to check up on schools. It would be news if they didn’t.

    8 years ago

    Only way this will workout, is if the princeable in each yeshiva is a direct employee and enforcer from the BOE.

    Abba_S
    Abba_S
    8 years ago

    The administrators will only go to jail if they misused government funds. The government only Lends Textbooks for secular studies. Since the claim is the students were not taught secular studies it is doubtful that the school applied for textbooks that it wouldn’t use.

    “For ultra-Orthodox families, the cultural pressure to send their children to yeshivas, where tuition costs upward of $4,000 to $5,000 a year, is intense.”

    That comes out to a little less than $350.00 – a little more than $400.00 a month. never paid so little,I was paying over $850 per month for 12 months for my youngest. It cost three to six times as much to educate in public school.

    What is happening is these guys are going off the derech and now they want to blame the yeshivas for their problem. They have to take remedial courses if they want to go to college, which is no different then the public school kids. They may also need to get a GED because they dropped out of school, but that also is very easy if they apply themselves.

    howdyoulikethat
    howdyoulikethat
    8 years ago

    Of course they don’t know about a cell. All yeshivos ban cells to prevent access to the internet.

    8 years ago

    Why can we just be modeh the Moster is right? Why bash him?

    sheepheadsbayyid
    sheepheadsbayyid
    8 years ago

    A 2011 study by the UJA-Federation of New York found that 45 percent of Hasidic households in the New York metro region were in poverty. Among households of six or more people the figure was 64 percent.

    This numbers seem to prove the point, that people are not getting a good enough education to get high paying jobs to raise themselves out of poverty. Please do not mention BH or some others those are outliers

    Or maybe many are correct, you do not need a good education and many people are really doing very well, but the community is committing fraud in a massive scale.

    which is it

    8 years ago

    all the yeshivas I know teach math and grammar. if they guy did not know how much 12×12 is he was an idiot or had no interest in school. he probably would have been a failure in secular school as well.
    these guys are unhappy human beings and looking to blame someone for their misery.

    Professor
    Professor
    8 years ago

    Mr. Moster is correct when he says that the yeshivas do not provide a proper education. I have many people that I advise and they ask me what is required to get to college. When I say they need ti start with GED or a high school diploma, they just give up. And, yes, many do struggle, work hard and go for the degree. But trust me they work much harder than the boys that went to yeshivas that offered a full english program.
    That being said, I believe Mr Moster has an agenda. And it is not to fix the system. I don’t know what it is but Iam almost sure that fir ppersonal gain.

    mewhoze
    mewhoze
    8 years ago

    isn’t it funny that the public schools ”teach” math and spelling etc for many hours a week yet they probably have about the same percentage of people that can read or do math.

    jason1974
    jason1974
    8 years ago

    The truth of the matter is that education today is becoming more competitive especially to get into low cost colleges. Not just middle and upper middle class. The increase in foreigners from India and Asia are driving this as well. Good paying Jobs will only be more difficult for the uneducated to.get in the future. These Yeshiva kids are going to be handicapped educationally which is unfortunate.and poverty will only grow in the community. Not everybody can overcome these hurdles by just doing it on their own. Too much to ask in the reality of today’s competitive economy.

    8 years ago

    The party is slowing coming to an end.

    Mark Levin
    Mark Levin
    8 years ago

    bli neder never never never, unless he does tshuva sh’laima, will i ever ever ever purchase anything associated with that oysvorf singer.

    BarryLS1
    BarryLS1
    8 years ago

    While some of the posts here prove the lack of secular education in many Yeshivos, public schools are hardly in a position to judge. We see the results of what they produce, with kids not knowing basic english or math. Their test scores overall are abysmal.

    8 years ago

    Reading the 31 posts posted Its obvious that most of these posters are only regurgitating what this evil moser is saying and have no idea how a chasidishe yeshiva runs. I have been a teacher in chasidishe yeshivos for over 20 years I will be the first to admit that there can be improvements. First however we must see where the problem is. If you read the letter this guy wrote his focus is mainly on curriculum. This is where he is wrong and one reason he will fail. The problem isn’t curriculum per se It is that the children can’t talk English. This is a home issue not a school issue no court order can change chasidishe attitudes about the English language. Second reason he will fail is the chasidisher yeshivas will look at this like the mitzitza b’peh issue.They will never let an outside body tell them how to run their school. They will fight it to the bitter end.

    Nycnyc
    Nycnyc
    8 years ago

    These two punks who are losers have an axe to grind. What do they teach in public school? Evolution, same sex studies beginning in first grade and distorted history. Yeshivas teach Creationism,normal family values and deep mind building Talmudic studies. Yes there are poor and rich religious Jews but compare them to the public school graduated and see how many blacks and whites are struggling today financially. What about investigating all black neighborhood public schools as the prisons are full of blacks and Latinos. The public schools are a danger zone of drugs and guns. Our reaction to this type of anti Semitic witch hunt is to register to vote. If every one of a quarter of a million unregistered religious Jews would vote, we could get real funding and no politician would mess with us. Register to vote and we can accomplish so much more. Enough with these atheistic liberal politicians always trying to destroy authentic Judaism. A far as college making one into a financial success is baloney. Half of the forbes 400 richest people are drop outs. Making money is from Above. Fact is there are so many college educated people looking for jobs. Becoming wealthy is not from a job. It’s being creative and taking chances. I myself never went to high school and have a yearly income of almost three million dollars. I hire college educated individuals to run my business while I spend my time davening at a relaxed pace and studying Torah. I also shep nachas seeing my kids excel in kollel. I am not interested in them being open minded buffoons who have no thinking abilities. The only normal society left in America are the Torah observant jews. Make no mistake about it. The rest have plunged into darkness like sodom.

    The-hak
    The-hak
    8 years ago

    What we need is vouchers. The same check that the city cuts for all students – that we never get to use – should be handed over to the parents. Once we pay similar tuition costs we will get an excellent education. Why can’t we have a true choice in education. The money is being sent to public schools who use this money on others.

    Tzi_Bar_David
    Tzi_Bar_David
    8 years ago

    What about the “Leadership Academies” that sprout up all over the Bronx/Manhattan and Brooklyn? The only thing the graduates of those fine institutions are capable of leading upon graduation is a cell block riot. While not saying there are not issues in *some* yeshivas, certainly those issues should be far down the quality investigation list.

    Realist77
    Realist77
    8 years ago

    It all comes from the top. If the parents and Hanhala do not care about a proper English education, neither will children. There is a reason that most Yeshivas have high turnover rate for teachers teaching English. The children behave worse than animals, and treat the English subject teachers worse than garbage.

    mugsisme
    mugsisme
    8 years ago

    You don’t need a college degree to get a blue collar job. Plumbers, electricians, appliance repairmen, excellent jobs … The type of services people always need.
    The problem is about offering vocational training after high school. Leave the yeshivos alone. Parents have the right to educate their children as they see fit. These young men have issues with their parents choices. Let them better sue their parents for not raising them the way they feel they should have been. Either that, or let them change it from the inside. Let them start their own school and see how many pupils they get.
    #35, spot on! Agree with you 100%!!!

    puppydogs
    puppydogs
    8 years ago

    Will they be suing the yeshivas because we didn’t have a prom also??

    8 years ago

    This is way overdue. There’s no excuse for robbing your children from a basic education and relegating them to a life of poverty.

    hashomer
    hashomer
    8 years ago

    Attacking the public schools makes you feel good, but that’s not the issue. The heimeshe communities are caught between wanting to stay in the 1600’s and living (and making $) in the contemporary world. The yeshivot that offer a solid secular education
    should become the model for all, unless we want to fall further into shetl poverty and ignorance.

    itzik18
    itzik18
    8 years ago

    this whole scheme by Moster is a slap in the face of Freedom of Religion

    hashomer
    hashomer
    8 years ago

    Talking fish? A side-splitter, LOL gefilte.

    ShimonHaNasi
    ShimonHaNasi
    8 years ago

    Whether we on this comment board believe or don’t believe in secular education seems to be beyond the scope of this conversation. The question of what is the legal responsibility of a school toward its students is what this particular probe is all about. This is not a simple matter especially if you remove this argument from being leveled at just Yeshivot. There are various schools and home schools that rely on alternative methods of teaching with varying successes and failures at all levels. The bottom line is at what level is the state going to dictate what needs to be learned in school and are those schools meeting that criteria. Just as importantly, what level of freedom are parents allowed to raise their children as they see fit. When we talk public schools the idea is simply set by the boards and all those who utilize the system must make do but private schools have much more leeway in setting their curriculum.

    jason1974
    jason1974
    8 years ago

    I also don’t believe in the government getting involved in mandating aspects of education. The government should stay out of private school business when it comes to religion. The problem is the perpetuation of poverty and welfare which the Yeshiva system proliferates which is why the government should at least be aware of the current situation and discuss with the community. This becomes a drain on America’s resources and as other people point out with their comments, there are plenty of Americans who take handouts. The government is not involved with the education oversight of the Amish. So is this just Antisemitism as other commentators indicate? I’d say no, I don’t know for sure but I’d venture to say the Amish don’t get a great secular education as they don’t have much secular studies beyond 8th grade. The Amish are known for their self sustenance, training their community to be self sufficient from farming to carpentry. The Amish take pride in their self sufficiency and refuse to take welfare, social security and unemployment benefits. Makes sense for the government to let these people be.

    yidineh
    yidineh
    8 years ago

    one of last generation’s g’dolim (i dont want to sat his name because maybe i will attribute this to the wrong person) that making ‘ahsh un blutta’ from the secular studies and those teachers is REAL bitul torah!

    everyone knows that the education in the public schools in poor neighborhoods is abysmal. there can be no comparison between our children and others. our kids are being raised in two parent homes, being taught to respect all peoples person and property, to be kind and helpful etc. our children grow up to be contributing members of society. our kids have a bounty of intelligence.

    that being said, there is something wrong when a man born in this country cannot fill ,out an application, cannot read a manual, cannot have an intelligent conversation on the phone with a doctor, a service provider, etc., cannot comprehend an instruction booklet about a common appliance. if our system of education is falling short, we are doing ourselves an injustice, we are failing our children. we are able to give an adequate education in the 2 hours allotted to secular studies if we use the time wisely and dont turn it into a joke