New York City – Perhaps the most famous living controversial Apikores in the world is professor James Kugel, formerly of Harvard University, and now teaching at an Israeli University. Dr. Kugel is the author of a book that proclaims that the Torah is not of Divine origin, and attempts to demonstrate that later authors purposefully invented and supplemented the entire Torah. Thus for example, in the world of Kugel, the incident with Dinah and Schem came much later and was later interpolated in the Torah. In Kugel’s world the story of Yoseph and Mitzrayim was entirely a work of fiction and Wellhausen’s anti-semitic theories as to biblical origins are presented as fact.
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On Thursday December 11th, Kugel delivered a lecture to a packed audience at Yeshiva University Stern College for Women. the full transcript of the event can be read here here.
What is most shocking is that the event was organized by a supposedly religious organization new student organization – TEIQU: A Torah Exploration of Ideas, Questions and Understanding. A founder of this organization stated, “It goes without saying that we are honored to invite Dr. Kugel onto our campus and study midrash with him.” That person went on to state, “Dr. Kugel is a world renowned scholar and authority on Bible. Many students, particularly those who have studied his works in classes at SCW and YC, are excited for the privilege of studying with Dr. Kugel.”
The lecture was also sponsored by the Torah Activities Council and Yeshiva Student Union.
Rabbi Dr. Mordechai Cohen who is a professor of Bible at SCW and Associate Dean of the Bernard Revel Graduate School, “James Kugel is a world-renowned scholar who has made enormous contributions to our understanding of Tanakh and its interpretation by Hazal, and it is therefore a unique and valuable opportunity to have him come and speak at Yeshiva University.”
When asked about the controversial aspects of Kugel’s work, Dr. Cohen asserted: “It is true that Professor Kugel’s views on biblical authorship are not those of traditional Orthodoxy and that, no doubt, is the source of the controversy. However, in my opinion, Yeshiva University’s educational ideals demand that we not limit ourselves to learning only from those who share our precise hashkafa.”
The Rambam in Hilchot Teshuva 3:8 writes that whomsoever denies the Divine origin of even one verse or one word is considered a Kofer. The Shulchan Aruch further codifies this law in Yore Deah 158:2. The Talmud (Avoda Zara 17a) states that one must stay very far away from all heretics, heresy and idolatry.
Imagine for one moment if Maimonides, or the author of the Shulchan Aruch or the Vilna Gaon were alive today. Any intellectually honest Yeshiva University administrator, student, or graduate would admit that each and every one of them would not have agreed to this decision by Yeshiva University. But then again, they probably would not have been the one’s making the decisions there in the first place.
Interesting to note when the scandal of Madoff first broke the president of YU sent a letter about the scandal that was shocking in what it did not mention. There was no mention of HaKadosh Boruch Hu. The letter read like a letter that could have come from any non-Jewish university. Perhaps it should be said that YU should have had the genuine respect for Divine authorship of the Torah that is called for in the Talmud, the Rambam, and the Shulchan Aruch.
Disturbing stuff…but the paragraph at the end is unnecessary.
Yeshiva U. is no longer a relevant institution, The Yeshiva and The University are both 2nd rate at best, it draws on jews from the diaspora outside of New York and Israel, where most of the kids going there have never had a Yeshiva education and therefore it is a novel concept that makes both the parent and the child happy. So for someone from say Columbus, Ohio. or Winnipeg it’s the perfect choice. Today kids from new York that have any bit of “Seichel” are going to real Universities like NYU, Columbia, even Harvard and Yale.
I think it is about time that YU removes the word “Orthodox” from its institutional ideology. A school which rolls out the red carpet for a man who falls under every halachic definiton of an apikores cannot be considered orthodox in any sense of the word.
Please be accurate. James Kugel believes the Torah is of Divine Origin, i.e. from G-d and that it is obligatory to follow halacha. What he does not accept is that everything it says is historically true.
Finally, for someone to try to write psak as to James Kugel in the middle of an article – or to insert the Madoff scandal which is irrelevant to this – is simply irresponsible and speaks to bias.
Yitzchok
what is G-d’s name are you talking of.
There may be significant issues with how and what the University does (or does not) do, However, no one (even in the chareidi camp)would deny the authenticity scholarship and erudition of the Roshei Hayeshiva and the majority of the serious bnei torah that learn in their beis hamedrash.
You have a bit of introspection to do before you write your next post as an apology may be in order.
Maybe he will teach them how much 2 + 2 is.
So they will be able to make up their mind once and for all if they lost 14 mill or 110 mil.
It takes very big Chachomim and Geonim and biggest Professors to figure it out.
how many of you have actually gone to YU before begin bashing it.
Didn’t YU used to be an “orthodox” school? Now it has gay groups, transgender teachers, apikorsim guest speakers, & goodness knows what else.
I couldn’t care less what weird/disgusting/abhorrent/immoral things people do, but don’t wrap them up as “Kosher” & expect the rest of us to buy them. #5 praises the Roshei Yeshiva & yet we never hear a word of condemnation from them. The old NIMBY defense? NMJ? I’d like to see the Rabbonim who train future leaders of the Jewish community (sic) open their mouths & address the issues that their governing body thinks are fit for YU.
Near the beginning of the article you write, “Thus for example, in the world of Kugel, the incident with Dinah and Schem…”. It should be, “Thus for example in the world of Kugel there are a lot of lokshen.”
It is unfortunate that RIETS a makom Torah would give a platform to Prof Kugel. Although he claims to be a shomer mitvos and I have no reason to doubt that he does follow the religious rituals outlined in Shulchan Aruch, his attitudes towards Tanach are clearly in opposition to everything RIETS rebbeim, even the most “modern” of them teach their talmidim and beleive.
I disagree strongly with Yitzchok. Firstly, there are many, many NYC kids enrolled in YU. Secondly, is a Jew from Columbus or Winnipeg any less worthy of an honest view of yiddishkeit than a kid from New York? Having personally met many sincere baalei teshuva from out of town who are or were studying in YU and Stern precisely because it was the Jewish College, I think that it is worse for these kids to hear apikorsus at this precarious time in their lives when they are trying to become frum and develop a jewish perspective on life. Kids from a frum backgroud will hopefully have more of an ability to shrug off apikorsus, while newly BT or not-yet-BT kids may not know how to parse the truth from the fiction.
Yitzchok,
I believe your statements with regard to YU enrollment are not supported by the facts.
I agree that Richard Joel’s letter was somewhat lacking but not sure why that’s relevant here?
Is Dr. Kugel an apikores, I don’t know but from the transcript of the talk, it’s hard to prove it. Do you believe that every letter in the Torah is as HKB”H gave to Moshe? If so, how do you explain the diferences between an ashkenazi and sfardi sefer torah (and once one letter is different, it proves the point)
Kol Tuv
Joel Rich YC ’73
yu is an example of compromisejust like cunservartive
or reform its a bridge from yidishkait to becoming a goy
yu is in prosess of doing just that
this farshtinkene kugel needs a doctor, why do they call him a doctor.
the gedoilei yisroel of yesteryear have already defined YU, no need for anybody to explain who they are. there might have fallen in some good boys, but it is to there great misfortune.
It’s a pity yu didnt loose everything to madoff
Mikol melamdai hiskalti
Shades of Mendelsohn, Batman! It’s t’chiyas hamaisim. Moses Mendelsohn has returned from the dead and Y.U. has him.
You seem to be confusing different parts of YU here. The RIETS rabbeim and talmidim had nothing to do with this event. Whether it’s a good thing or not, the fact is that students at YU can organize events on their own without them being approved by the Roshei Yeshiva. This even was put together by some students who spend very little time in the Beis Medrash and in no way reflects on the serious B’nai Torah and Rabbeim at RIETS who were probably all outraged by the event, as they should be.
-a RIETS student
y not??? Most of “YU” is not Y. The “Y” part dreads this “publicity.” I wonder when the Y will ceceed from the U?
this is what happens when you have that berger guy incharge of religious study or what ever high up position he has
This is news? No, its the same old harrangue against a segment of our people that appears here every time YU is mentioned in any context. and it gives a platform to all sorts of people ignorant of what YU is to make all sorts of comments. what is the toeles???? YU has Roshei yeshiva who are gedolai B’Torah and talmidim who are masmidim and it is mamish Yehura for many of the commentators here to think that in 120 years they are going to be able to stand there and defend what they are saying here and their reasons for saying it. This post on VIN is a contrast to the top post regarding the Shloshim for the Kedoshim murdered in India R”L. Your top post bespeaks unity, and right below it sinas chinam and ignorance. Shkoich.
he is apikores without ‘controversial’ ..clear cut…the same with YU..IF ITS UNIVERSITY ITS NOT YESHIVAH IF ITS YESHIVAH ITS NOT UNIVERSITY
Did any one here do research on what Dr. Kugel believes or just everyone goes by the article? First do your research then criticize everyone is entitled to the benefit of the doubt.
President Joel’s letter was outstanding. It is easy to forget that Yeshiva University employs thousands of people who are not Orthodox or not even Jewish. To use the kind of language that would inspire us who are religious believers would have at best confused those folks, or even worse, turned them off. The last paragraph of President Joel’s letter in particular is a mussar call that we should all respond to positively.
Full disclosure: I am on the faculty of one of YU’s graduate/professional schools.
More disclosure: Most Shabats I attend the same synagogue as President Joel and sit in the same section. He has inspired me with his Torah and his Tefillah, especially for the Yomim Noraim. I have absolutely no doubt that he respects the Divine Authorship of the Torah and that he wants our university to be run in accordance with what HaShem would want. Furthermore, he appears to be a total mentsch and I have never heard a single word of lashon hara come out of his mouth during the 3 1/2 years I have attended that synagogue; in that he is a model of midot for us all (especially those of us who comment on blogs!).
….which is why while Lakewood and Satmar are growing exponentially, YU after all these years only graduates 600 undergrads a year. They are sick in the head because they have no idea WHAT they believe in.
Without question, there are many true talmidei chachamim among YU’s ranks, alumni, and student body – and these people have provided a great benefit to klal yisroel. Anyone who cannot admit that is simply out of touch with reality.
That said, YU, like most institutions (Jewish or otherwise), is not perfect. As a rebbi of mine once put it rather pithily, “Yeshiva University is like Day Night.”
That is a pretty sharp statement calling james kugel an Apikores!!!
Seems to me more like lashon hara then anything else.
What is the point of this newspiece ? An academic gave a lecture at YU??
Who cares, look around there are far greater problems around us!!!
it should NOT be called Yeshiva University anymore. YESHIVAS dont invite people like this to speak. YESHIVAS are true torah institutions that teach TORAH not BS. YESHIVAS do not hire crossdressers to teach FRUM talmidim. they should be ashamed of themselves. it should be called University for Jews. NOT A YESHIVA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wonder what Richard Joel has to say about this, if anything.
To #24
Allegorical interpretation (e.g. saying the ‘Hand of G-d’ doesn’t literally mean His Hand) and exegetical interpreation (e.g. the 13 exegetical principles of R’ Yishmael as well as those of R’ Akiva, by which we learn halacha from apparent textual contradiction/repeition) require that the Torah can be both true and false simultaneously but that the ‘falsehood’ is meant to advance the core truth.
I hope by writing that it such duality is irrational, you don’t mean to undermine these core ideas in Torah Judaism.
To #34 , Charlie Hall,
James Kugel’s views as to when the Torah was given and the historical accuracy of the Torah’s recounting of the revelation at Sinai are non-standard from an Orthodox perspective.
If one does not agree with every word that the Rambam said, does that turn him into an apikoros? The Rambam was a great scholar and everything, but he was still a human being. The torah isn’t like a machine, where if you pull a screw out it doesn’t function properly. The torah is complex and its interpretations are complex as well, and we are in no position to judge a another person based on their understanding of torah. We believe and do what we feel is right, but we don’t know for sure. And we definitely cannot attack one another because of one disagreement. This lecture had no mandatory attendance policy and no one was obliged to attend. would you rather silence everyone that has one disagreement with you? You wouldn’t have who to talk to. Don’t we have so much more in common??
i would change his name to cholent but that would be bizayon ochel
Geilah Kletenik one of the organizers of this event is the daughter of R Moshe Kletenik, a baki in shas and poskim. He learned by R Aron Soloveichik zt”l in Chicago, and then was in r Zweig’s kollel in Miami nad the Mir for several years. He is the son-in-law of R Pupko from Pittsburgh and is a well respected and chashuva Rov in Seattle. I’m curious how he reacts to this “speaker” i guess the answer is TEIQU
Oh please, YU Rabbonim aren’t worth anything because they don’t condemn things? What about all the Rabbonim in Lakewood who swept the who Torah Temmimah thing under the carpet? What about the “Rebbe” from the Ger Yeshiva who ran to Israel after being accused of molesting kids? I didn’t hear any condemnation coming from the Gerrer Rebbe. I guess he’s not worth much, either, right?
YU is an amazing place, where an enormous amount of learning is done. Attacking it the way you are here is pure loshon hara. You should be begging forgiveness.
Funny, you quote the Rambam – but his books were burned during the middle ages and he was lebelled a kofer
This is tamed kfiras. You should see what they teach in the rabbinical program of JTS, an institution that alleges to have fidelity with halacha.
As a rebbi of mine once put it rather pithily, “Yeshiva University is like Day Night.”
==========================
What a very nice compliment – comparing YU to bein hashmashot which according to many authorities HKB”H created to have elements of both day and night – mah hu af atah (imitato dei)
KT
Anyone who has any doubts as to how far afield Prof Kugel’s viwpoints are from normative or as he would call it traditional Orthodoxy can go to his web site and read his article on appologetics and bible criticism. Its clear that it was inappropriate for an Orthodox school to host him as a speaker.
YU guys are better informed and sharper learners than those at many of the chareidi
yeshivas. They undergo rigorous testing and assessment and their learning is combined with an understanding of science which is essential to fuller understanding of Torah. Chareidim end up asking YU professionals for advice on psak i.e. regarding medicine
the problem with religious fundamentalists is that they criticize others without fully understanding the issues. the fact is that the rambam didnt know what we know today regarding biblical history, archeology and scholarship. the rambam says that certain stories in bereishit never happened but were a dream- he too then is an apikores since he says things written in the torah didnt happen. the fact is that the torah was edited after many years of broken transmission from the time of moshe to the time of ezra. sefer melachim confirms this – they found the torah in yoshiyahus time (probably devarim) and never heard of the things written in it. The first editor was moshe himself of devarim – as stated in the gemarah regarding the tochacot, in addition the eben ezra, rabbi yehuda hahasid, and rav saadya gaon say the torah was edited. educate yourselves before casting stones.
#69 …what you say is pure apikorses…not surprizing from heter gay yeshivah(sic) univesity. can you refer to where the rambasm says certain stories never happened?
the fudemantals of jusaism…if one believes kol hatorah min hashumayim except 1 ois is apikores rambam (not his own..beferishe gemmorah)see igros moshe expounds on this..and thats whyholy tzadikim of all generation were against torah un madda because the end result is such apikorsih insitutions as ….
Why am I not surprised?
Yeshiva University straddles between two worlds rather precariously. It is almost like a scizo who cannot make up his mind.
As they struggle, they slip.
Hence, a ‘conference’ on Ethics in Kashruth, all the while ignoring that this conference contravened the basic ‘less hip and PC’ old-time Jewish Ethics of Motze Shem Ra and Dan Lkaf Zhut. It was a total sham and shame; the ‘Jewish Durban’.
The problem is, as they play with fire, they burn not only themselves, but also thousands of innoncents…
(reply to 70) the rambam says in parshes vayiru that the maluchim never came to avrum, Its a simple dream that he dreamed
reply to #75
i didnt say he wrote it- he edited it- he shortened the long tochacha – so its his version of it
Of course he’s an Apikores. Just look at the color of his Yarmulke.
Dear #69
Read this carefully.
You can call someone an “apikores” or whatever mindless names you want but you are a fool if you don’t recognize that free thinking individuals will always have the final word over “blind” obedience to a rigid interpretation of what is true arithmetic…hashem has given us great powers of reasoning, analysis and thought and you cannot suppress the ability of Yidden to find their own derech in arithmetic.
Doesn’t make sense does it? Bling and rigid are correct when we deal with 7 times 8 being 56.
It is because of these ignoramuses that I left Morristown and Kiryas Joel, and decided to pursue a real education in Yeshiva University. Its funny how “Torah true” Jews who “believe” in H’KB on Vos iz Neias always bash YU and spit venemous loshon hora against fellow Jews.
Always remember, for every finger you point at someone else, there are four more pointed back at you, so stop wasting time posting comments and go learn Torah.
Sincerely,
-Chanan
“President Joel’s letter was outstanding. It is easy to forget that Yeshiva University employs thousands of people who are not Orthodox or not even Jewish. To use the kind of language that would inspire us who are religious believers would have at best confused those folks, or even worse, turned them off.”
That’s okay. They’re used to religious organizations with no transparency and where money can magically disappear from charity bank accounts as long as the administration speak piously, “Hakodosh Baruch Hu will help.”
actually many boys turn down Ivy for YU so that they can learn. They end up making top law and med schools anyway.