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New York - The Truth About Turkish Talleisim

Published on: March 5, 2009 08:08 AM
By: http://hamodia.com/inthepaper.cfm?ArticleID=161
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A Tunisian employee weaves a Turkish tallis. It takes several hours to weave a tallis, meaning that only one or two can be manufactured a day.New York - Let’s start off with a quick quiz:

1) Are the woolen shaatnez-free “Turkish talleisim” really made in Turkey?

2) Are they really shaatnez-free?

3) Are they really made 100 percent from wool?

If you answered “yes” to all three questions, you go to the back of the class.

For starters, Turkish talleisim are actually manufactured in Tunisia from Tunisian wool. They are called “Turkish” because Tunisia was under the Turkish Ottoman Empire for over 300 years, until the end of the 19th century. The poskim refer to Tunisia as Turkey, hence “Turkish talleisim.”

Being at the crossroad of various civilizations, Tunisia has been famed since the times of the Greeks for its wool weaving.

In ancient records, we find that the Tunisians paid part of their taxes to the caliph of Baghdad in woolen carpets and tapestries. In addition, travelers reported on the various forms of wool weaving they saw there.

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According to Tunisian tradition, Jews have been living in Tunisia since the destruction of the Bayis Rishon, with over half of the community settling on the island of Djerba.

The main occupation of Djerba’s Jews was weaving woolen garments and spinning carpets from sheepskins that were imported from mainland Tunisia. There are reports from the end of the 18th century of Djerba’s Jewish community manufacturing over 10,000 talleisim, which were sent to their fellow Jews in Europe.

(Tunisian wool has nothing to do with the Tunis sheep, one of the oldest breeds in the United States. The Tunis earned its name by virtue of the fact that it was a gift to the United States from the ruler of Tunisia, the bey of Tunis).

Why Wear a “Turkish Tallis”?

The Turkish tallis has been worn by some chassidim, mainly Belz and Skver, for many years, as a chumrah in hilchos tzitzis, after poskim in previous generations declared that only these talleisim are sure to be free of shaatnez.

The Rav of Djerba, Harav Chalfon Moshe Hacohen (1874-1950), known as the Ramach, meticulously describes in his Teshuvos Sha’ol Venishal (3:111) how these talleisim were manufactured in his times. The Jews employed local Arabs to spin the wool for the talleisim, under their hashgachah.

The Ramach emphasizes that it would have been impossible for the Arabs to add any other materials in the spinning process, since the Jews had supplied the wool to be spun. After the wool had been spun into threads, the Rav continues, Jewish women were employed to manually weave the tallis.

The Ramach notes that the weavers were careful to use only threads from the clean and soft wool that had been specifically chosen for the talleisim; any other wool or fabric would have been immediately noticed by the workers; besides, the tallis would have torn if other materials got mixed into the wool.

The Ramach adds an important fact about the Tunisian talleisim, practically eliminating the possibility of their containing shaatnez: “It is impossible for even a single thread of flax to be mixed into the tallis, chas veshalom,” the Rav writes, “since flax is not to be found in Djerba.” He added that leading Ashkenaz Rabbanim had ascertained that no flax or linen is obtainable in Djerba.

Harav Moshe Hacohen does not list the Rabbanim who verified this, but Harav Moshe Aryeh Freund, Rav of the Eidah Hachareidis, cites the Shineva Rav, Harav Yechezkel Shraga Halberstam, zt"l, (5573/1813-5658/1898), as having traveled to Tunisia to determine that no flax was cultivated there.

(Although the Ramach himself records in another sefer, Bris Kehunah, that in Djerba the niftarim were buried in linen shrouds, he probably meant that flax and linen are not grown in Djerba and are not regularly used commodities.)

Interestingly, many archeological finds point to Tunisia as an ancient flax-cultivation area. It seems that the growth of flax decreased over the years until, by the 18th century, flax was no longer to be found there.

Indeed, several Tunisian Jews we spoke to declared that they had never seen flax and didn’t know what it looked like until they arrived in Eretz Yisrael.

The Botatcher Gaon (5531/1771-5601/1840) declares in his sefer Eshel Avraham (Orach Chaim 16) that the woolen talleisim manufactured in Turkey are shaatnez-free and should therefore be preferred over other talleisim. The Kamarna Rebbe writes in his Heichal Habrachah that “every yerei Shamayim should buy a Turkish tallis, since the talleisim manufactured in our countries are mixed with cotton and may contain shaatnez” (Shlach, Otzar Hachaim, page 105).

The Taz, a son-in-law of the Bach, once complained to his father-in-law that his wife seemed to be angry with him.

The Bach asked his daughter why she was angry with her husband, and she answered that he had recently bought a Turkish tallis, and she knew that on his meager wage he could not afford such an expensive item. Therefore, she suspected him of taking money for conducting dinei Torah.

Only after the Taz proved that he had saved a few pennies every month until he had amassed enough to buy a Turkish tallis was his wife mollified.

The Vilna Gaon was also makpid to wear a Turkish tallis, basing his ruling on a mishnah in Kilayim (9:7) that clothes originating from areas where flax is not grown don’t need to be checked for shaatnez.

Other Gedolim who were stringent to wear Turkish talleisim included the Sanzer Rav and Harav Shlomo Kluger, who writes in a teshuvah that he only wears a Turkish tallis.

The story is told of the Shineva Rav, son of the Sanzer Rav, who asked Harav Baruch of Vizhnitz, the Imrei Baruch, why he didn’t wear a Turkish tallis. The Imrei Baruch replied that his father, the Tzemach Tzaddik, didn’t wear one either.

“I am sure that the angels protected your father’s tallis from shaatnez,” was the Shinave Rav’s reply.

The Sar Shalom of Belz said that at the churban Beis Hamikdash the virtues of Eretz Yisrael were dispersed among the rest of the world, with the virtue of exalted wool given to Tunisia.

“That is why the talleisim of Tunisia are so well made,” the Belzer Rebbe concluded.

When Harav Shimon of Yeraslov gave a hechsher for talleisim manufactured in his town, the Belzer Rebbe expressed his displeasure, saying that since it was so difficult to be certain that not a thread of flax had gotten mixed into the wool, only talleisim made in a country free from flax could be used.

“The only way to be sure that the tallis is shaatnez-free is to buy a Turkish tallis,” the Rebbe said.

In Belz they were extremely makpid to wear a Turkish tallis and didn’t allow a person with a regular tallis be a shliach tzibbur.

Harav Meshulam Ashkenazi, the Stanislaver Rebbe, offered an additional reason for the preference of a Turkish tallis. He said that since the material is woven with threads crossing each other, the Christian workers might have in mind their religious beliefs while making the tallis. But with Arab employees, there is no such chashash.

The Linzer Rav offered yet another reason for the superiority of the Turkish talleisim: The mitzvah of tzitzis diminishes the power of the Arabs. Therefore, the wool that comes from Arab lands is better for fulfilling the mitzvah of tzitzis, as it weakens their koach.

Due to the high cost of importing ready-made talleisim from Djerba, European askanim wanted to manufacture Turkish talleisim using Tunisian wool. They approached the poskim to ask if the talleisim needed to be woven in Tunisia in order to maintain their exclusive status, or if it was sufficient that Turkish wool be used.

The Gedulas Yehoshua (volume 8, page 73) quotes the Atzei Chaim as ruling that using wool from Tunisia was the important element; the tallis did not necessarily have to be woven in Tunisia. Harav Moshe Aryeh Freund, in his Mara Dishmatsa, writes that his grandfather, the Nasoider Rav, supported this view.

However, Rav Freund adds, he heard from Harav Shalom Eliezer of Ratzfert, son of the Sanzer Rav, that a Turkish tallis must be woven and completed in Tunisia.

Thus, the manufacturing of talleisim in Tunisia continued for many years, with yerei Shamayim paying up to four times the price of a regular tallis to fulfill the mitzvah of tzitzis lemehadrin.

An interesting characteristic of the Turkish talleisim is that while the stripes in regular talleisim were black, the stripes of the Turkish tallis were dark blue, as a remembrance of the techeiles.

When the Belzer Rebbe arrived in Eretz Yisrael and the only Turkish tallis he could find had black stripes, he ordered that they be colored dark blue.

Nowadays, about half the Turkish talleisim have dark blue stripes, while the others have black stripes.

The Present Day Turkish Tallis

Until 40 years ago, the Tunisian talleisim were manufactured by the Hadad family in Djerba.

These talleisim were thin and strong. Many still recall how these talleisim were preferred by many not only for their kashrus but also for their beauty.

Although the Jews lived in Djerba, the talleisim were woven by local Arabs in inland Tunisia, and the Djerba Jews would often travel to the tallis factory to oversee the manufacturing.

With the mass exodus of Jews from Arab lands after the declaration of the State of Israel, which increased after the Six Day War, most of the Jewish population left Tunisia for France and Eretz Yisrael.

In 1948, the Jewish population was estimated at 105,000, but by 1967 it numbered only 20,000. Nowadays, the Tunisian Jewish population stands at around 2,000.

As the Jews were less involved in the production of the talleisim, the talleisim became heavier and less attractive.

These are the heavy “blanket” talleisim that characterized the Turkish talleisim up to 20 years ago, weighing around three pounds (1.5 kg).

About 20 years ago, Yoel Maddar, a grandson of the Hadad family and a son of the former Rav of Tunisia, Harav Chaim Maddar, zt"l, decided to start a new line of talleisim weighing only a pound and a half (700 g).

“Because it takes several hours to make a tallis, we can’t weave more than two talleisim a day,” says Maddar, who was born in Djerba and emigrated to Eretz Yisrael 17 years ago.

This, in addition to the import costs, explains the high cost of a Turkish tallis - $180 - while a regular tallis costs around $50.

Tunisian talleisim have always been hand-made, only nowadays the threads are spun my machine.

Another trader followed shortly after Maddar, and these two are the only importers of Turkish talleisim.


The Outbreak of Shaatnez

Turkish talleisim kept their chezkas kashrus until recently, when a Monsey resident was told by his dry cleaners that the tallis he had given in to clean contained material other than wool.

As more Yidden gave their talleisim in for checking, they were shocked to learn that some of the talleisim indeed contained shaatnez, while many of the others were not 100 percent wool (they contained silk or polyester).

It appears that the talleisim were not made of Tunisian wool, since there was no hashgachah to ensure that the Tunisian workers only use wool originating in Tunisia. It had been taken for granted that they would be supplied with local wool.

What finally emerged is that, with the strong import business, the Tunisian workers were supplied with wool originating from countries that weren’t free of linen.

Tallis importers regularly checked their shipments to ensure that they were made of the proper material. However, the checking was performed only on a select number in each shipment and not on every tallis.

Investigation showed that the problems occurred in talleisim manufactured in the past three years.

Maddar says that although other textiles have been found in his talleisim, no shaatnez has been found.

“Baruch Hashem, of over 600 of my tallitot checked in laboratories, none of them were found to be shaatnez. The threads in the full length of the tallis were all found to be 100 percent wool, but a small amount of other fibers were found in the width,” Maddar says.

Although a Turkish tallis is expected to be 100 percent wool, in most cases it is still kosher lechatchilah as long as most of the cloth is made from wool (for more details about when the ruling of rov is used, see Biur Halachah 9, ela midrabbanan and Shulchan Aruch Harav 9:6).

When Maddar was told of the other fibers found in some of the talleisim, he chastised the Tunisian worker, who admitted that he had added some silk threads because he had been in a rush to complete the talleisim.

After understanding the severity of his actions, the employee promised to use only 100 percent wool.

Indeed, the talleisim that have arrived since then have all been found to be 100 percent wool.

Rabbi Berisch Brander, who is involved in the kashrus of the talleisim and is in contact with the Rabbanim to try and find a solution to the problem, says that Hamdi, the Tunisian employee, uses primitive ways to check the authenticity of the wool: He burns the cloth, and if it smells and crumbles, it is certainly wool.

But he can’t check all the wool that way, since he won’t be left with any wool to work with. ...

In some samples, polyester was found in the cloth, and this is more serious than finding silk.

When the facts were brought before Harav Moshe Shaul Klein, he wanted to know why the Arab had added polyester to the wool. If it was added to support the cloth, the Rav explained, it would be considered a maamid and would disqualify the tallis even if it comprised only a small percentage of the tallis.

But when Rabbi Brander discussed the issue with Hamdi, the latter declared that he never added polyester to the cloth.

“Maybe others add polyester to the garment, but I don’t know why they would do such a thing. I never added anything to the wool,” Hamdi claimed.

Since the Tunisian worker ­ didn’t deliberately add the other fibers, the Rav rendered the talleisim kosher.

And to conclude on an optimistic point, Rabbi Brander says that in the near future Tunisian talleisim will be manufactured with a close hashgachah, making them once again shaatnez-free, once again 100 percent wool and the preferred tallis for the mehadrin.



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Read Comments (30)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Mar 05, 2009 at 07:30 AM Turkish Tallis Dealer Says:

Keep in mind that this whole issue is ONLY on the Turkish Talleisim manufactured in Tunisia.

The Mishkan Hatecheles Turkish Talleisim and I believe another company also, work differently. They now import the wool to Eretz Yisroel, where it is under both BaDaTz and Rav Wosner's hashgacha, and weave it in Eretz Yisroel also under their supervision.

I sell Turkish talleisim along with other tallis and tefillin items on my website. So when this matter came out I got a bit hysterical and drove everyone crazy while I checked into it. Both Rav Wozner and the BaDaTz of the Aida HaChareidis certify them as being 100% pure "Tzemer Richailim".

In fact, I was told, "Don't get hysterical. The problem is only with those from Tunisia. Ours come from Eretz Yisroel." Then they followed up with a letter from the BaDaTz.

So, don't fear all Turkish Talleisim.

And, for those who say, "How can you have Echt Turkish not made in Tunisia?"

We now have a new terminology.
The Echt Turkish line is made out of Imported wool, and woven to the original Turkish tallis design, with the double side fringes.
The KMO Turkish is woven to the original Turkish design, but only have the single fringes like a regular tallis, and the wool is of a different origin.

2

 Mar 05, 2009 at 08:01 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Turkish Tallis Dealer Says:

Keep in mind that this whole issue is ONLY on the Turkish Talleisim manufactured in Tunisia.

The Mishkan Hatecheles Turkish Talleisim and I believe another company also, work differently. They now import the wool to Eretz Yisroel, where it is under both BaDaTz and Rav Wosner's hashgacha, and weave it in Eretz Yisroel also under their supervision.

I sell Turkish talleisim along with other tallis and tefillin items on my website. So when this matter came out I got a bit hysterical and drove everyone crazy while I checked into it. Both Rav Wozner and the BaDaTz of the Aida HaChareidis certify them as being 100% pure "Tzemer Richailim".

In fact, I was told, "Don't get hysterical. The problem is only with those from Tunisia. Ours come from Eretz Yisroel." Then they followed up with a letter from the BaDaTz.

So, don't fear all Turkish Talleisim.

And, for those who say, "How can you have Echt Turkish not made in Tunisia?"

We now have a new terminology.
The Echt Turkish line is made out of Imported wool, and woven to the original Turkish tallis design, with the double side fringes.
The KMO Turkish is woven to the original Turkish design, but only have the single fringes like a regular tallis, and the wool is of a different origin.

are all bought in Israel ok and how can I find out what type mine is

3

 Mar 05, 2009 at 07:57 AM MP Says:

They stopped the blue striping because of Zioni-Phobia.

I heard that belz is going to manufacture now tallaisim with blue stripes.

4

 Mar 05, 2009 at 07:56 AM Grammar Girl Says:

The Turskish taalis is a classic example of practicality driven behavior that has (foolishly) evolved into a full-blown minhag.

Historically, there was no scientific method of checking for shatnaz. Therefore, to insure that their taalisim were shanaz-free, the yidden relied on taalisim from a region were linen (i.e., flax) was found. As the post points out, this position is supported by the mishna in Kilayim (9:7).

Today however, two things have changed: (1) with the advent of the world-wide import-export business, linen can be had across the globe, and (2) using a "sophisticated" tool called the microscope, we are able to determine whether a particular fabric has shatnaz.

Why then do the Chassidim (foolishly) continue to perpetuate habits of their grandparents which were driven by facts and circumstances that are no longer relevant??? Whether or not a garment has shatnaz is a FACTUAL determination. Would any one of these Chassidim who wear Turkish taaliasim invest in a business using circumstantial evidence (becuase that was the type of evidence their parents used) in the face of empirical evidence -- I THINK NOT.

5

 Mar 05, 2009 at 08:16 AM Anonymous Says:

People will go crazy over tallis and cholov yisrael issues, but if your son or daughter is molested/raped, well that is nothing, forgetaboutit....

sad!

6

 Mar 05, 2009 at 08:13 AM Anonymous Says:

Why doesn't some enterprising yeshival start a program in wool spinning and weaving? Why rely on Arabs? Make our own taleisim! Do the mitzvah mehudar from beginning to end, just like we do with tfillin.

7

 Mar 05, 2009 at 08:32 AM Trust an arab ???? Says:

"Maybe others add polyester to the garment, but I don't know why they would do such a thing. I never added anything to the wool," Hamdi claimed.

8

 Mar 05, 2009 at 08:38 AM Anonymous Says:

You are incorrect regarding the learning from the mishnayot in Kilayim (9:7) and the holdings of Rav Chemreretzky, Z'tl who is clearly the gadol on these issue. They hold that the mitzvah of shatnez must be framed in terms of the materials available in the countries in which yidden live in galus and not rely upon any one domestic practice regarding weaving materials. Thus, even if some other materials are conmingled in the vool, it is ok if the other materials are not dominant.

9

 Mar 05, 2009 at 08:52 AM yidlmitnfidl Says:

Don't be a turkey!
Buy your Tashmishei Mitzva from Yidden!

10

 Mar 05, 2009 at 09:10 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Grammar Girl Says:

The Turskish taalis is a classic example of practicality driven behavior that has (foolishly) evolved into a full-blown minhag.

Historically, there was no scientific method of checking for shatnaz. Therefore, to insure that their taalisim were shanaz-free, the yidden relied on taalisim from a region were linen (i.e., flax) was found. As the post points out, this position is supported by the mishna in Kilayim (9:7).

Today however, two things have changed: (1) with the advent of the world-wide import-export business, linen can be had across the globe, and (2) using a "sophisticated" tool called the microscope, we are able to determine whether a particular fabric has shatnaz.

Why then do the Chassidim (foolishly) continue to perpetuate habits of their grandparents which were driven by facts and circumstances that are no longer relevant??? Whether or not a garment has shatnaz is a FACTUAL determination. Would any one of these Chassidim who wear Turkish taaliasim invest in a business using circumstantial evidence (becuase that was the type of evidence their parents used) in the face of empirical evidence -- I THINK NOT.

The global economy has really only evolved in the post WWII era. Most Shaatnez testers do not test the material of a garment unless requested, relying on government labeling standards. Thus, many times you will see advertisements about Shaatnez problems in clothing of foreign manufacture.

Secondly, according to Halacha the Tzitzis & the Tallis should - optimally - be made of the same material.

I don't think you are on the level of the modern-day Poskim & Gedolim to criticize them & call them "foolish".

11

 Mar 05, 2009 at 09:40 AM ZW Says:

Reply to #4  
Grammar Girl Says:

The Turskish taalis is a classic example of practicality driven behavior that has (foolishly) evolved into a full-blown minhag.

Historically, there was no scientific method of checking for shatnaz. Therefore, to insure that their taalisim were shanaz-free, the yidden relied on taalisim from a region were linen (i.e., flax) was found. As the post points out, this position is supported by the mishna in Kilayim (9:7).

Today however, two things have changed: (1) with the advent of the world-wide import-export business, linen can be had across the globe, and (2) using a "sophisticated" tool called the microscope, we are able to determine whether a particular fabric has shatnaz.

Why then do the Chassidim (foolishly) continue to perpetuate habits of their grandparents which were driven by facts and circumstances that are no longer relevant??? Whether or not a garment has shatnaz is a FACTUAL determination. Would any one of these Chassidim who wear Turkish taaliasim invest in a business using circumstantial evidence (becuase that was the type of evidence their parents used) in the face of empirical evidence -- I THINK NOT.

Well said.

12

 Mar 05, 2009 at 10:04 AM Anonymous Says:

many people today do chumras without thinking, just because it was instituted in the past. This is a perfect example of something that made sense 200 years ago, but doesnt makes sense today.
Jews instead of thinking, wanting to keep the mitzvah in the best possible way, overpaid for tallesim that came from some Arab country, when they would have been better going to the Walmart and making their talis from a woolen blanket from Walmart.
The only question is what does G-d think of all this? Does he admire the sacrifice of some guy who overspent on a tallis instead of giving the money to Tzedakah or he is laughing at how stupid the guy is and punishing him when he goes to heaven for wearing Shatnez.

13

 Mar 05, 2009 at 09:58 AM Grammar Girl Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

The global economy has really only evolved in the post WWII era. Most Shaatnez testers do not test the material of a garment unless requested, relying on government labeling standards. Thus, many times you will see advertisements about Shaatnez problems in clothing of foreign manufacture.

Secondly, according to Halacha the Tzitzis & the Tallis should - optimally - be made of the same material.

I don't think you are on the level of the modern-day Poskim & Gedolim to criticize them & call them "foolish".

In response to your three points:

1) Agreed. I was referring to the post WWII era.

2) I don't see you the halacha that the tzitzis and the beyged be from the same material relates to anything that I said.

3) The questions here is not one of psak (or haskafah for that matter) -- its simple COMMON SENSE -- the torah does not mandate, or even recommend, turning your brain off, or entrusting it in its entirety to "Poskim & Gedolim" – rabanim and poskim should be asked matters of halachah and hashkafa, not matters of common sense.

14

 Mar 05, 2009 at 10:31 AM Anonymous Says:

Anyone who is at all familiar with the garment business knows that factory workers never provide the yarns used in production and exercise no control over what yarns/fabrics are used. Blaming the non-wool fibers on the factory worker is a joke.

15

 Mar 05, 2009 at 10:52 AM Torah Truth Says:

So I don't get it. If the entire reason to buy a Turkish Talis was to ensure it is Shatnez free... today there is no longer this Chezkas Kashrus! Clearly the wool in Tunisia is no longer free of Shatnez. The fact that there will be a Mashgiach to certify it Hechsher makes it no better then any other Talis where there is a certification of its Hechsher! So why should anyone but a Turkish Talis today? Sounds like Purim Torah to me!

16

 Mar 05, 2009 at 10:57 AM Torah Truth Says:

Reply to #4  
Grammar Girl Says:

The Turskish taalis is a classic example of practicality driven behavior that has (foolishly) evolved into a full-blown minhag.

Historically, there was no scientific method of checking for shatnaz. Therefore, to insure that their taalisim were shanaz-free, the yidden relied on taalisim from a region were linen (i.e., flax) was found. As the post points out, this position is supported by the mishna in Kilayim (9:7).

Today however, two things have changed: (1) with the advent of the world-wide import-export business, linen can be had across the globe, and (2) using a "sophisticated" tool called the microscope, we are able to determine whether a particular fabric has shatnaz.

Why then do the Chassidim (foolishly) continue to perpetuate habits of their grandparents which were driven by facts and circumstances that are no longer relevant??? Whether or not a garment has shatnaz is a FACTUAL determination. Would any one of these Chassidim who wear Turkish taaliasim invest in a business using circumstantial evidence (becuase that was the type of evidence their parents used) in the face of empirical evidence -- I THINK NOT.

Well put!

17

 Mar 05, 2009 at 11:01 AM Grammar Girl Says:

Reply to #14  
Anonymous Says:

Anyone who is at all familiar with the garment business knows that factory workers never provide the yarns used in production and exercise no control over what yarns/fabrics are used. Blaming the non-wool fibers on the factory worker is a joke.

Have you seen "the factory"??

Nuff Said.

18

 Mar 05, 2009 at 11:17 AM Anonymous Says:

It is now possible to buy the highest quality, shaatnez-free "Turkish talleisim" from China. They are offered on several heimeshe websites. It is much better to purchase a genuine Echt Turkish talles from China than from an Arab country like Tunisia. Belz and Skver chasidim especially, who are especially chumrah in their focus on hilchos tzitzis are rushing to buy their new tallesim from China.

19

 Mar 05, 2009 at 12:12 PM saychel deekr yud Says:

Reply to #15  
Torah Truth Says:

So I don't get it. If the entire reason to buy a Turkish Talis was to ensure it is Shatnez free... today there is no longer this Chezkas Kashrus! Clearly the wool in Tunisia is no longer free of Shatnez. The fact that there will be a Mashgiach to certify it Hechsher makes it no better then any other Talis where there is a certification of its Hechsher! So why should anyone but a Turkish Talis today? Sounds like Purim Torah to me!

you are a 100 pct right this is why the rebbis of skwer and belz abolished it and furthermore the wool off tunisia is imported from ausralia the one who believes that you can change black stripes to blue blieves in turkiesh goyim

20

 Mar 05, 2009 at 12:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
Anonymous Says:

It is now possible to buy the highest quality, shaatnez-free "Turkish talleisim" from China. They are offered on several heimeshe websites. It is much better to purchase a genuine Echt Turkish talles from China than from an Arab country like Tunisia. Belz and Skver chasidim especially, who are especially chumrah in their focus on hilchos tzitzis are rushing to buy their new tallesim from China.

In time they will find problems with made in China tallaisim. The Chinese are notorius for cutting corner to save a fraction of a penny.

If this minhag is important to some people then there should be Shmurah Tallaisim. A mashgiach should watch from the time the sheep is sheared to the time the tallis is placed in a sealed plastic bag.

21

 Mar 05, 2009 at 12:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
Anonymous Says:

In time they will find problems with made in China tallaisim. The Chinese are notorius for cutting corner to save a fraction of a penny.

If this minhag is important to some people then there should be Shmurah Tallaisim. A mashgiach should watch from the time the sheep is sheared to the time the tallis is placed in a sealed plastic bag.

Am I the only one reading this who says to himself< "self, vy are ve now buying tallesim that are supposed to come from Turkey, but then really came from Tunisia but now we should buy from China for yiddim living in BP, Monsey and EY".

22

 Mar 05, 2009 at 12:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
saychel deekr yud Says:

you are a 100 pct right this is why the rebbis of skwer and belz abolished it and furthermore the wool off tunisia is imported from ausralia the one who believes that you can change black stripes to blue blieves in turkiesh goyim

The rabbonim keep creating these chumrahs which require poor yidden to spend even more money they don't have out of a fear of not being makayem the mitzvah or getting less z'chus for doing so at the same time those very same rabbonim are making money from selling their "hasgacha services" to assure the unneeded chumras they created are being complied with...vats wrong with this picture??

23

 Mar 05, 2009 at 02:58 PM shatnez maven Says:

Reply to #19  
saychel deekr yud Says:

you are a 100 pct right this is why the rebbis of skwer and belz abolished it and furthermore the wool off tunisia is imported from ausralia the one who believes that you can change black stripes to blue blieves in turkiesh goyim

What does Krietman from Monsey say?

24

 Mar 05, 2009 at 04:38 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #14  
Anonymous Says:

Anyone who is at all familiar with the garment business knows that factory workers never provide the yarns used in production and exercise no control over what yarns/fabrics are used. Blaming the non-wool fibers on the factory worker is a joke.

You hit the nail on its head.

25

 Mar 05, 2009 at 04:48 PM Askupeh Says:

I might be wrong, but It looks to me that there is no factory and no workers, only weavers who will weave what you ask for and sell it to you. So the whole thing today boils down to the “Ne’amonus” of a non-Jew where there is no “Mosiach Lefi Timoi” but only a legendary pure town in Tunisia where no Yetzer Hora exists. The reason might and probably was valid once; but doesn’t hold water now it seems.

26

 Mar 05, 2009 at 08:57 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

People will go crazy over tallis and cholov yisrael issues, but if your son or daughter is molested/raped, well that is nothing, forgetaboutit....

sad!

What you would call "molesting" is often far less important than shatnes or cholov akum. One case that got huge coverage on VIN recently was about someone who sat a boy on his lap, fully clothed, and allegedly fondled him through his clothes. Shein is dos nisht, but compared to shatnes or cholov akum it is a kleinikait.

27

 Mar 06, 2009 at 03:29 AM Anonymous Says:

There are already stores in Boro Park selling Taleisim "Kimo Shatnez".
Freilechen Purim.

28

 Mar 06, 2009 at 02:20 AM Gershon Says:

Millhouse,
Have you somehow lost it?Fondling is a klenigkait?Cholov Akum, the real kind is an issur derabonnon,OU dairy for example is muttar according to many poskim.
This is getting scary.I hope you are not involved in chinuch

29

 Mar 05, 2009 at 10:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
Anonymous Says:

It is now possible to buy the highest quality, shaatnez-free "Turkish talleisim" from China. They are offered on several heimeshe websites. It is much better to purchase a genuine Echt Turkish talles from China than from an Arab country like Tunisia. Belz and Skver chasidim especially, who are especially chumrah in their focus on hilchos tzitzis are rushing to buy their new tallesim from China.

i could bet you that the talisem from china if not today thaen im a year from now will have some problem, cant trust that communist country.

30

 Mar 05, 2009 at 10:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

many people today do chumras without thinking, just because it was instituted in the past. This is a perfect example of something that made sense 200 years ago, but doesnt makes sense today.
Jews instead of thinking, wanting to keep the mitzvah in the best possible way, overpaid for tallesim that came from some Arab country, when they would have been better going to the Walmart and making their talis from a woolen blanket from Walmart.
The only question is what does G-d think of all this? Does he admire the sacrifice of some guy who overspent on a tallis instead of giving the money to Tzedakah or he is laughing at how stupid the guy is and punishing him when he goes to heaven for wearing Shatnez.

a person is judged what his kavana was and dont call these people stupid because lot of mitzvos are saved because of these stupid poeple holding the minhag of their fathers.

31

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