Bnei Brak – A remarkable video has emerged of Rabbi Gershon Edelstein, one of the two preeminent leaders of the Haredi world, advising families with children who have become non-religious not to reprimand them or kick them out of the house but instead to show them warmth and kindness.
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The rabbi even went so far as to say in a case where a mature boy brings home a girl, and ostensibly sleeps with her in the house, the parents should not reject or reprimand the child.
The video was made several months ago by Avi Fishoff, an activist in the US Jewish community for outreach to people who have left a religious life, who met with Edelstein to consult with him as to the correct attitude for parents to take to such children.
During the interview, Rabbi Edelstein said that the basic attitude to children who become non-religious should be that they are being “forced” to sin by various inclinations and desires, and that they do not sufficiently understand what they are doing.
Although the questions put to the rabbi were frequently rather leading, Rabbi Edelstein nevertheless insisted throughout that only a non-confrontational attitude of “friendship” by the parents would have any affect in preventing him or her from being further distanced from Judaism and the family
“It is forbidden to shout at them, it’s like putting a stumbling block before the blind,” says the rabbi, meaning that by reprimanding them such children would be likely to further distance themselves from religion, and said that pressure on them “damages and hurts them.”
Asked whether or not parents should insist that a boy wear a yarmulke or a girl dress modestly, Rabbi Edelstein responded “God forbid” saying that doing so would only distance them.
“Parents needs to accept them without laws or conditions or restrictions. Only through the way of kiruv, [drawing them close],” he says.
And asked whether or not a parent should throw his son out of the house if he brings home a girl, Rabbi Edelstein says simply “God forbid.”
When Fishoff questions how one can allow “such a terrible as this to happen in a religious household” the rabbi replies “there is no other way.”
Similarly, when asked about an incident in which a child smokes on Shabbat while with his parents, the rabbi responds that the parents should not protest this desecration of the Sabbath.
The number of people leaving the Haredi world has increased significantly in recent years and has become a serious problem for Haredi society. Many former Haredim speak of having been ostracized by their families, although it is also not uncommon for some families to retain close ties with such children.
The rabbi is a very very wise man….. Very very wise!
I am completely floored and humbled by Rabbi Edelstein’s answers. As an afterthought can parents come to some agreements with OTD children (no smoking on Shabbat, bringing girls to the house etc) or set no ground rules and hope they find their way?
“…and ostensibly sleeps with her in the house, the parents should not reject or reprimand the child.”
YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING!?
It is one thing for a kid to not be shomer shabbos, but as long as there is MUTUAL respect, relationships can continue. But if a kid flaunts the parents and shows NO respect, I can not agree with this above statement.
Does any one else agree?
Yitzchok Aveenu set no ground rules in his home. עשיו lived in the house with his shikses, no problem.
Yitzchok Aveenu became blind from the smoke of קטורת that those very same shikses were burning for עבודה זרה inside of his house and he didn’t put his foot down!!!
Wow- it is so beautiful to see such a great TORAH figure state this in public.
I have seen and heard that this method of love and respect works in a wide range of circumstances.
From what I have seen the result are children who come back with an even greater love and respect for their families and for the TORAH. Greater than even some children who were never considered OTD.
And most importantly lives of the OTD are being saved and the lives of the siblings and the parents are at peace while they see and witness the healing and teshuvah of the OTD child.
It is a true Torah based strategy as exemplified by the opinion of the Rabbi.
The proof is in the pudding, Avi Fishoff has the greatest rate of return, more then any therapist, mashpia etc.
This great rosh yeshiva is dealing with this complicated סוגיא with tremendous clearity . What others will forcibly agree in the future the rosh yeshiva is already way ahead.
The bottom line is , this is a spiritual holocaust , and kicking the can down the road will only cost klal yisroel c”v so much more lost souls, Avi does not move nor let any parent move without a solid daas torah.
And 98% of daas Torah agrees that there is no other way then being mekarev with extreme love all these pained souls and keeping these kids even closer is essential to thier healing and eventual return.
Those who can’t understand these clear directives of this Godol are the cause of these sorts of problems Le-Chatchila!
AvI Fishoff should have asked him if its only a mitzva to help “cool boys or girls” who go OTD or is it a mitzva or perhaps a greater mitzva to help “nebby disfunctonal boys or girls ” aka “nerds” who go OTD as well?
Who am I to disagree, but as a parent of a girl whos gone ofd,there is no way I will allow her in my house. My job is to stop her negative influence on her siblings. She is already an adult and I am no longer responsible for her actions. There is no way I would let an adult mechallel Shabbos, eat on Yom Kippur or bring a boy friend over. Yes I feel bad she’s not part of my family but it was her choice not mine. Its just a matter of time until she does drugs runs off with boyfriends and I don’t want that in my house.
Why are people surprised? This is what our holy chachomim teach us.
May we all merit to see revealed true yiddishe nachas from all our children.
…אבל מי שאינו חבירו ואינו מקורב אצלו, הנה ע”ז אמר הלל הזקן הוי מתלמידיו של אהרן אוהב שלום וכו’ אוהב את הבריות ומקרבן לתורה. לומר, שאף הרחוקים מתורת ה’ ועבודתו, ולכן נקראי’ בשם בריות בעלמא, צריך למשכן בחבלי עבותו’ אהבה. וכולי האי ואולי יוכל לקרבן לתורה ועבודת ה’ והן לא לא הפסיד שכר מצות אהבת ריעים. וגם המקורבים אליו והוכיחם ולא שבו מעונותיהם שמצוה לשנאותם – מצוה לאהבם ג”כ, ושתיהן הן אמת, שנאה מצד הרע שבהם, ואהבה מצד בחי’ הטוב הגנוז שבהם, שהוא ניצוץ אלקות שבתוכם המחיה נפשם האלקית. וגם לעורר רחמים בלבו עליה (“ניצוץ אלקי”), כי היא בבחי’ גלות בתוך הרע מס”א הגובר עליה ברשעי’. והרחמנות מבטלת השנאה ומעוררת האהבה כנודע…
As a family member of a few OTD siblings the pain is real. The idea of a young kid going haywire without having the brains to foresee what unhappiness this path brings pains me to no end.
I personally disagree with many people who say one kid cant/wont have an “hashpua” on the other siblings if they act badly. For me its been proven otherwise and the communication from the parents explaining with love how she was given god given choice to choose the good or bad etc and everyone is responsible for their actions etc.
Many will blame the internet, magazines, yeshivas, schools etc. and who knows what else.. and it could possibly be true… but in the end the overwhelming majority does stay religious & lead orthodox torah-mitzvos lifestyles.. I truly believe the yetzer horah simply climbs into these kids brains & really does his work until they go off/on whatever you want to call it.
To do the right thing & love your child no matter how they behave will never come back to haunt you, because if C”V something really happens you want them to know they can always step through your door & you’ll help them. Because if they know your door is closed it usually doesnt end with a happy ending.
There is no right or wrong in this parshah because strong feelings are so involved. But always remember ITS YOUR KID, but its THEIR choice. They can change their choice, you cant change the fact Hashem gave you this kid. Please spread more love to all
Maybe the Rosh Yeshiva wasn’t even asked about other children at home. Perhaps he assumed that there no other children left at home who can be influenced badly.
Since he has not addressed it, no one can assume that his statement applies to a situation that it could negatively impact other kids.
In a case where it can’t impact younger children, I don’t think anyone disagrees with his position.
1. The Rav did speak about the other kids in the house, and gave very clear advice following the same derech of Rav Shteinman ztzl and Rav Elyashiv ztzl.
2. There are many families that did not follow this derech – and the siblings still went off the derech! This is because MANY experts agree that the tension in the home that comes by not following this derech destroys the environment and hurts the other kids.
3. If there is a safek about how the other kids will be affected, follow Rav Gershon who is the connection to the Chazon Ish and daven that you will have siyata dishmaya.
4. On a practical level, the NOVOMINSKER Rebbeh shlyta gave testimony that the 2000+ siblings under Avi Fishoff’s personal guidance actually SHTEIG (grow stronger) in their yiddishkeit.
5. Those who are in this painful nisaayon should not be getting advice from website and comments – go to a bonafide proven expert with a HIGH SUCCESS RATE to get your troubled kid to (a) stay alive (b) become emotionally healthy (c) become frum.
6. Those who are not personally in this painful nisaayon, stop commenting and start saving that you or your children should be spared from this magayfah!!
Our daughter was off at 15, hanging with boys, smoking weed, getting drunk, cursing out loud, michallel shabbos, ate on Yom Kippur, angry , extremely rebellious (she would easily say things to us like….f you or drop dread…) and totally out of control.
After 3 years of trying everything, running to therapists, rabbanim and all the chinuch people writing articles and giving speeches, we got NO WHERE. we could not run our house anymore. We could not live like this anymore. There was so much pain and we threw her out of the house.
Then, by some miracle, we were sent to Rev Avi.
Obviously we were extremely skeptical, lost, broken, and worried about our 6 other younger kids.
Fast forward 5 years:
Chasdei HaShem
She is alive.
She is clean from all alcohol and substances.
She is frum.
She got married to a frum sweet boy.
They are Erlich.
They have a beautiful baby boy.
They host shabbos meals.
They are amazing.
And we are so close!
During the many years attending Avi’s groups we saw this miracle happen over and over again.
And our other kids all shteiged! They speak about it publicly. The house is a happy healthy home!
The advice of Rav Gershon – works!
Let us be humble.
Let us accept the concept of Daas Torah.
Let us realize that Maybe we don’t know everything.
Let us daven for those in crisis and show them this video and give them the SUPPORT they need to go to someone like Avi who will help them (free of charge) SAVE THEIR KIDS.
Does this ruling applies to every case? What if a daughter is 16-18 years old and wants to dress in sexy mini skirt and heels in the house, as well as smoke often? What if she often wants to bring “the boyfriend” or boyfriends over and they are touching and behaving in immoral ways? What if she/he often say curse words? What if, what if…is he really saying there are no boundaries and we should just keep trying with love even when there are other impressionable children at home? What if this child is becoming best friend with the other children and they are starting to follow him/her?
If he believes that is the case, he should have said explicitly so, to show us that his guidance applies even in these cases. Otherwise, one must ask to make sure how to conduct in his case.
It seems to me that his guidance was in a general case, not for every case. I could be wrong, and hope someone will clarify the questions raised on this board.
“Who am I to disagree, but…
“I wont allow that in my house…
“I hear what he is saying, but what about…
Everyone needs to ask their own questions, for their own specific situation, to their own Rov, Rabbi, Godol, Chacham etc, but this is the (general?) answer from a Godol. The Torah tells us to follow our Chachomim, this is what he is telling us to do now.
Don’t be so worried for the other siblings. They will stay strong and they can even be a conduit for the struggling sibling. Show them love and also, take care of yourself. Love your children. Hashed gave them to you for safe keeping. Might not be your way, but you have a job, and you must love them and not be judgemental.
I still have yet to hear an answer to my question, Is there only a mitzva to be mekarv “cool” OTD children or does the mitzva apply to “Nebby dysfunctional” OTD as well. My experience has sadly been that only the “cool” kids get attention.
I just want to give a shout out to Harav Mosh Binnik for all is work on this for years already. The man took kids off the street and was the first guy that gave them a home. He the hired them in his stores. And the tzadaik always ran away from kovod with a ten foot poll. So unassuming and ehrilich at his work. May he have a speedy recovery from his terrible machla bkrov.
Isn’t this effectively discussed in Chumash – Yitzchack and Rivkah had two sons Yaakov and Eisav – from the age of 13 Eisav was doing Avodah Zarah (תולדות – רש”י כה:כז), by age 15 Eisav had committed murder (תולדות – רש”י כה:כט); by 40 Eisav was trapping people’s wives and coering them to live with him (תולדות – רש”י כ”ו:ל”ד) – Eisav committed the three aviros chamurah’s – all while living in his parents home (תולדות כ”ו:ל”ה) – Yitzchack and Rivkah never threw Eisav out – it was Yaakov whom they didnt want to get influenced that they sent away. And it’s only after the posuk tells us Eisav was 40, that it’s mentioned – Yitzchack’s eyes became week – so till then he definitely knew what was going on. It would seem from Yitzchack and Rivkah even if a child committ’s the three aviros chamurah’s there isn’t a reason to throw the child out.