New York – AP Report: Questioning Real-world Learning At Ultra-Orthodox Schools

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    In this July 18, 2018 photo, Pesach Eisen poses in front of a yeshiva he attended as a child in the Borough Park neighborhood in Brooklyn, N.Y. Eisen, now 32, left his orthodox community in his late teens. Complaints that schools like Eisen's run by New York's strictly observant Hasidic Jews barely teach English, math, science or social studies have fueled a movement to demand stricter oversight by state and local educational authorities.  (AP Photo/Mark Lennihan)New York – At the ultra-Orthodox Jewish schools Pesach Eisen attended in Brooklyn, most of the day was spent studying religious texts with classes taught in Yiddish. One class at the end of the day was spent on secular subjects including English and math, enough to be “able to go to the food stamps office and apply.”

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    “Everything was super basic. … Nobody took it seriously, so even if you were a studious person you had no chance,” said the now-32-year-old Eisen, who had to take remedial classes and study intensively on his own before he succeeded in graduating from college in 2016.

    Complaints that schools like Eisen’s run by New York’s strictly observant Hasidic Jews barely teach English, math, science or social studies have fueled a movement to demand stricter oversight by state and local educational authorities. Critics plan to file a lawsuit on Monday in federal court, seeking to stop the state from enforcing legislation that was intended to shield the schools, called yeshivas, from some government oversight.

    “When we grew up there was no such thing as big aspirations — ‘I want to be a doctor, I want to be a lawyer, I want to be a businessman,'” said Eisen, who no longer practices the ultra-Orthodox faith. “It’s, ‘I want to be a rabbi. That’s the only thing.'”

    Defenders of the yeshivas say parents have the right to send their children to schools that provide a Jewish education consistent with their beliefs and traditions.

    “We specifically for generations have chosen this kind of education for our children,” says Ari Goldberg, who has seven children attending Hasidic yeshivas in Brooklyn. “This is what we want. Why should it be taken away?”

    The yeshiva backers also say critics err by just counting the minutes of a school day spent on secular studies.

    “The problem solving, the literacy, the critical thinking, all that is in Judaica studies as well,” said Yitzchok Kaufman, a Brooklyn yeshiva alumnus and parent.
    In this November, 1999 family photo, Pesach Eisen poses at a banquet table during his bar mitzvah in the Borough Park neighborhood of Brooklyn, N.Y. Critics say dozens of New York’s ultra-Orthodox Jewish schools run by Hasidic Jews are failing to provide enough instruction in English, math or other secular subjects to prepare students for the modern world. (Pesach Eisen via AP) AP
    The planned lawsuit by Young Advocates for Fair Education, or YAFFED, which is pushing for improved secular education in the ultra-Orthodox schools, names Democratic Gov. Andrew Cuomo and the state Department of Education’s top two officials as defendants.

    Department of Education spokeswoman Emily DeSantis said the department is working on updating its guidance on equivalency of instruction at the yeshivas.

    There are about 275 Orthodox Jewish yeshivas in New York state, but many are modern Orthodox schools that provide a full secular curriculum along with religious studies.

    YAFFED founder Naftuli Moster said the Hasidic yeshivas where secular education is generally given short shrift number 83 in New York City and 38 in other parts of the state. An estimated 115,000 children attend the schools.

    For boys in the Hasidic yeshiva system, the emphasis is on studying religious texts. Classes are taught in Yiddish, the language spoken in most Hasidic homes. Secular subjects are relegated to the end of the long school day, when the boys are restless and inattentive, critics say.

    Once the boys reach high school, they don’t study secular subjects, devoting their entire day to the Torah, Talmud and other Jewish texts.

    Hasidic girls can’t study Talmud and therefore learn more English, math and social studies than the boys do, though taboo subjects such as evolution and sex education are typically omitted.

    “They erased anything about dinosaurs,” said Shavy Rosenberg, who attended Hasidic schools for girls. “Anything more than 5,000 years old was erased.”

    Although the schools are private, they are not entirely free of government oversight because of a state law requiring that instruction in non-public schools be substantially equivalent to the instruction given at the local public school.

    YAFFED was founded in 2012 with the aim of pressuring New York City and New York state to enforce the substantial equivalence standard at yeshivas. But that effort was dealt a blow last spring when a state senator who represents a heavily Orthodox Brooklyn district threatened to hold up the state’s $168 billion budget unless the state agreed not to enforce the substantial equivalence rule in the same way at ultra-Orthodox yeshivas as it’s enforced at other schools.

    The legislation pushed by Sen. Simcha Felder, a Democrat who caucuses with the Republicans in the state Senate, singled out schools with long days, bilingual programs and nonprofit status — in effect, yeshivas — and put the state Department of Education, not local school districts, in charge of determining what curriculum rules those schools must follow.


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    56 Comments
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    MrSmith
    MrSmith
    5 years ago

    Just wondering, with his new education what job does he have and how much does he earn a year…… probably a big loser

    fat36
    fat36
    5 years ago

    Personally I think a little education in reading and writing won’t kill anyone this guy unfortunately couldn’t make it in life so he’s looking to blame as the system most people I associate with who came out from the Yeshiva world had no issues and opening up successful businesses or getting successful job which I believe is because of the smarts that you get from your yeshiva (the Gemara Kop) those who chose to take the college route got there GED‘s masters degrees became very successful and a lot of them got into schools based on the merits that they were coming from a yeshiva They were told if you have a head for Gemara you will succeed here for sure. I’m sorry that maybe this kid needed help and his parents didn’t notice and give him the help that he needed but don’t blame the whole system on that .

    5 years ago

    So Mr Eisen, who recently married a non jew and his future kids will be goyim …is trying to prove to us that his secular education enhanced his life…really? Guess what. ..Pesach..we are not interested in the gehenim you purchased for yourself, which of course, you may not find out until they call you back to account for your life and you’ll be smilng all the way there…but in the end…your education just sold your soul to the devil nebech, and you think you found gold. May Hashem give you and all your OTD brothers the one thing you all need…not an education in the secular sense, but an education that reaches far further and deeper. Into the innermost crevices of your neshama. You are the one that has been sold out. Not us. And unfortunately you will find that out. .not today maybe..not tomorrow…but one day…when it may be too late. This life is just a corridor into the real life Pesach, our brother. ….you’ve been fooled by your yetzer hara who dragged you into the deepest pit where right is wrong and wrong is right. We can only pray for your SAFE RETURN TO HAKODOSH BURECH HU..We are not missing anything. You are. We are building and preparing for our everlasting home while yours will crumble like ashes. May you be zoicha to let Hashem open your eyes and heart to the abysmal choices you and your friends have made…we who know the truth and have nothing but pity on you. Not hate, not anything ..just pity and hope for your teshuva/salvation … future. May your parents still…one day, see nachas from you. Being tisha b’ av today….it is with the greatest love in my heart that this post emenates from…and not malice. .from jewish brotherly love. .even though you may not think so..your self hate is evident to all who see your site and it evokes pain to those who know you and to all of Klal Yisroel. Education is one thing..throwing G-D aside is another. If education = abandoning G-d…then uch in vei to you…The torah teaches us all we need, for thousand of generstions we have survived. You are not new in your enlightenment. ..we’ve always had a few of those. They have perished, we have survived…remember that when you sit and contemplate your future… The future of your holy neshama, that now is stained by your inability to see the truth.
    Oh…how I mourn for you…because one day…you will have to face your maker and the smile you carry will be changed to tears…Pesach, you have given over your soul to the devil…and exchanged the most glorious pot of gold for steel.

    5 years ago

    Parents that send children to private schools are responsible for their decisions. I suggest that the unhappy adults seek therapy with their parents and that the legislature create a new reality by changing the law and severing responsibilities and relationships between NYSED and non public schools hools

    5 years ago

    Hope nobody takes this loser/moron seriously. Theyre all selfish blame everybody but myself people that look to throw their guilt on everyone of their previous lives. Hea a total sucker and wants attention and hes unfortunately getting it. One day hel wake up with his goyishe family and knock the woods otta his brain but will be too late or commit suicide.
    Wont even go into details how wrong he is. Hes an unhappy soul and trying to pin his guilt and blame on all of us. Sorry Mr Eisen, wont work with us. Were a happy people. We can always use a way to better our system but not coming from a hapless freak as u are.

    Butterfly
    Butterfly
    5 years ago

    I want to know why 18 to 20 year old young men cannot fill out the form in a doctor’s office and need their mother to do it for them? Seeing is believing!!

    njmom
    njmom
    5 years ago

    I don’t understand how any of you can come to the defense of these yeshivas. These boys end up graduating without even the most basic English or math. So many end up living on government handouts or worse, get involved in illegal shenanigans. The jails are full of minyanim because of the all shady things they get involved in, often because they don’t have skill sets to make it in the real world. I don’t know about yafed and why they have an agenda, however, the things they point out are true as well as horrifying. So many of you point to the successful businesses chasidim run. You don’t point to the vast majority that are on food stamps and section 8. They pay no taxes but walk around in European designer fashion, custom sheitels, and fancy cars. Only goyim should pay for the roads, police, fire, and their rent etc???? No other community in the world has real estate prices through the roof yet their citizens are all “dirt poor.” (Kiryas yoel is voted as the poorest in the nation but their housing prices are way above the national average!!!! How could that possibly make sense that they are poverty stricken, yet their neighborhood doesn’t look like Camden, nj?).
    Things need to change. What is wrong with giving these boys the ability to read and write and do math so that they can actually get professions? Is that a crime? Is it so bad to be able to work for a living???? Idon’t know about yafed and their agenda, but they certainly paint an accurate picture of chasidish yeshivas and how they will hurt so many long in the long term. Instead of knocking them as off the derech angry people – maybe look inside yourselves and change so that you don’t ruin another generation!

    Aron1
    Active Member
    Aron1
    5 years ago

    Mr. Moster:
    115,000 students in 121 Yeshivas? That’s an AVERAGE of over 900 students per Yeshiva. There aren’t probably 10 Chasidic Yeshivas statewide with that amount of students.
    Time for more remedial math, Naftulchik!

    5 years ago

    First of all, those who write about living on welfare, food stamps, medicaid etc. This has NOTHING to do with the education they receive. Any family, jewish or non jewish with 1 or 2 children earning the minimum wage will qualify for food stamps etc. In addition, many of the wives are stay at home moms. In kiryas yoel and I’m sure in any orthodox neighborhood. A young man gets married and hs kollel check is minimum wage, but the day he leaves kollel many of them move on to do very well for themselves, despite what you call a lack of education.

    rikki
    Active Member
    rikki
    5 years ago

    I think he had major issues growing up. Obviously, now he can have the extended education he claims he didn’t have as a youth. By now he should have been a doctor, lawyer, etc., why isn’t he? Why is he so busy with his past life and not forging ahead? Let him show his Bobovers what a well-rounded educated successful person he has become!! There are tons of educated and successful Chassidish and non-Chassidish frum professionals out there. He’s a screwed up individual that needs help — now!

    favish
    favish
    5 years ago

    what has he complain to school. he should sue his parents fo not sending him to PS, harvard etc. did the school advertize a certain cerriclum and didnt deliver? so you cand have tainos to them

    5 years ago

    The real question is what are our boys in HS doing anyhow? How many can really sit and learn all day? Most can’t. I have mentored mesifta boys . And many mesiftas end up just shlepping out the day often teaching kids to be somewhat “shleepy” and less focused. So why not teach them secular studies which are lighter in nature and somewhat useful?

    We all agree that Moster’s approach is wrong. We need to watch out for that slippery slope and we surely can’t force frum schools to teach anything. But let this be a broader discussion . Lets self reflect.

    So let me circle back to the original question. Why not offer secular education? What is the issur? Its not bitul torah bec they are not learning anyhow.

    fineshemker
    fineshemker
    5 years ago

    Hey Eisen, your grandfather was moseh neffesh in the war to remain a yid and built up Bobov after the war, He was a credit to humanity, the Jewish community in general and Bobov in particular. I look at Bobover chasidim such as Moshe Elias ah and Chiel Krutz ah who came to us as penniless refugees and built up families and fortunes, I look at yingerlat who came thru the bobover system such as Leible Rubin, AA Leser, Chaim Zeiger, AS Miller, LD Follman just to name a few, all who are worth in the millions, would I want my kid to be like them or a semi employed research assistant married to a shiksa?

    5 years ago

    Mr. Eisen today is Tisha B’Av which was I’m sure you know the history and significance. Stop trying to change the “system” you will lose! B’chol dor v’dor omdim aleinuh v’chalosanu! You will have no legacy on this earth so parade around with your non Jewish wife and try to convince others to “join” you. The decisions you made are your business and you will live with those decisions but the Torah is forever! Am Yisroel chai despite your intent!

    LiberalismIsADisease
    LiberalismIsADisease
    5 years ago

    Eisen, Moster etc are a bunch of loosers who keep trying to blame others for their looserkeit. Time to grow up and accept responsibility for yourselves.

    a-believer
    a-believer
    5 years ago

    Mr. Eisen , I feel so bad for you and your friends who have left our faith! One question , if you were so unhappy here, why do you still bother with us? Move on with your life and forget where you cane from, move on….why do you feel you need to drag others with you ? Why can’t you feel inner peace where you’re heading ? Why can’t you let go ? These are important questions ! Try to be honest with yourself! You will never find inner peace , it’s not possible ! Wishing you the proper introspection to return to your faith before your soul returns to its maker !

    5 years ago

    lets be honest, I too learned in chasidisa schools growing up. I was a victim of physical abuse and emotional abuse. Rebbeim and teachers treated the students like they were their property, owned. so when someone accuses these schools of something so obvious as not having basic limudei chol, its funny because alot of these heimish schools were so much worse then just not having secular studies. Rebbeim openly made fun of afternoon secular studies just to show their students that they dont really need to take it seriously.

    5 years ago

    פסח בן ר׳גבריאול פנחס לרפו׳ש משב׳ק אצל האדמו׳ר זצ׳ל בן ר׳יוסף גבאי קהל שערי ציון, אחי החסיד הנעלה ר׳חיים אלישע גבאי דאדמו׳ר 45 שליט׳א
    זכור זכור הבת קול היוצאות מהר חורב בכל יום ׳שובו בנים שובבים׳
    ר׳ משה דייטש איז געווארען א בעל תשובה פין א שטיקעל קיגעל , כאטש עס קוגעל פאר דיין זעהל

    5 years ago

    I spent 40 years teaching secular studies: I have a degree, & I was raised in a frum home. None of my children went to college, but all have excellent jobs & support their families. One son only learned English for a few years (he taught himself to read at age 3!) yet he has a BA as well as smicha. His secular education ended in 8th grade & his brothers well before that. All my children are frum, still in their levush.

    Mr. Eisen is a self-hating Jew who hates his upbringing so much he has guaranteed his line is now broken. Such a busha for his family, not to mention the pain they must feel. “Phil” or “Pete” or “Paul” has no pony in the race any more, so why is he fighting? The answer would seem to be revenge. He can’t go after his parents for raising him in a traditional manner, so instead he blames the school system. And it’s not enough to resent his “lost opportunities”, he has to actively campaign against it.

    He is a sad, pathetic character. As #1 & #2 said, he is a loser. Ignorant in many things, but smart enough to recognize he is his own worst enemy, & that’s what bothers him. Nebach.

    5 years ago

    I agree 100% with him but still doesn’t give him the excuse for him becoming completely OTD. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

    Sol-Sol
    Sol-Sol
    5 years ago

    I remember Pesach, he’s a good kid.
    We should all daven for him and his mishpucha

    frumwoman
    frumwoman
    5 years ago

    I’m not sure that OTD people make good advocates to get our children a good education. It makes people say “oh, this is what happens when you get educated”, but that is not so. There are frum people who are educated, some because they are self taught and read a lot. Others, unfortunately who don’t have this burning desire for knowledge are left totally without a way to support their family. Yes, we as parents make choices. So our options are leaving our chassidus or sending to a modern orthodox school, or as some in the comments say, public school. Those are our choices? Don’t let this askanim bamboozle you into “basheigatzen” the OTD’ers who speak up, because unfortunately they are the only ones that can speak up without consequences to their family and their social status.

    True, they are not religious. True, he married a goy. True, this is not how we want our children to grow up. But, our secular education is atrocious. If PEARL would use their funds to actually improve the chassidish education system, rather than creating videos of the yeshivish ones that do provide some science etc. in their yeshivas, then we’d have some progress. Your children deserve better.

    fineshemker
    fineshemker
    5 years ago

    I have a suggestion, from now on all the OTD people should use a number system to explain why they left yiddishkiet.
    1. The secular department was lousy
    2. I was molested
    3. My Rebbe potched me
    4. My parents potched me
    5. My classmates made fun of me
    6. The Showers in camp / mikva was cold
    7. My parents has a old model car /van
    8. We never went to Florida on vacation
    9. None of the above
    10. All of the above
    By using numbers it would cut down on the time needed to explain

    shortie
    shortie
    5 years ago

    Stam a Vald Chazir!
    Your a messed up soul.
    Since you graduated I really wonder how much more your earning than the typical chasidisher yingerman….

    PaulinSaudi
    PaulinSaudi
    5 years ago

    The state has a duty to ensure all children are educated. New York is failing in that duty.

    5 years ago

    Pesach ,

    I am not going to comment on the present controversy .
    I only want to say to you that no matter what you are my brother .
    Please accept this virtual hug .

    Do not listen to all the hate messages from misguided individuals .
    Your are our brother forever .
    I am so sorry that we failed you growing up . I can only guess at the unimaginable pain that you carry around every day .
    I wish for you recovery happiness and peace of mind .

    rikki
    Active Member
    rikki
    5 years ago

    Just a story for Mr. Eisen from the Kupishnitzer rebbe. The story goes:- A mother came to the Rebbe heartbroken that her son wants to marry a shikze. The Rebbe told her send your son to me. She finally persuaded her son to go to the Rebbe. The Rebbe told him about an actual story that had happened in Europe. A Jewish boy fell in love with a shikze and refused to listen to any reasoning why he shouldn’t marry the love of his life. The woman he couldn’t live without. The woman with who he wanted to have children. For many years they did, indeed, live happily together. Until, one day WWII came and the Nazis offered money, etc., to people who told them about Jews in hiding. This Jewish boy’s love of his life went to the Nazis and told them her husband was a Jew. You, undoubtedly, know what happened to him. When the young man heard the story from the Rebbe, he kissed the Mezuzah and asked for a Kipa. Mr. Eisen…remember this story..you’ll live it one day, too!

    SammyPos
    SammyPos
    5 years ago

    Hey pesach/pete, nice hat at least!

    favish
    favish
    5 years ago

    fake picture. inerimposed