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Stamford, CT - Jewish Crooks Are Bums Who Should Be Thrown Out Of Shul, Says Former NYC Councilman

Published on: November 23, 2018 10:14 AM
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Stamford, CT - A former New York city councilman had strong words about lawbreakers during a panel discussion at one of the opening sessions at this year’s Agudah convention when asked to offer his thoughts on how members of the Jewish community are negatively stereotyped in the media.

Met Council CEO and executive director David Greenfield responded passionately to the question posed by Agudath Israel of American’s New Jersey director, Rabbi Avi Schnall, who expressed concern about the prevalence of headlines proclaiming unsubstantiated allegations of wrongdoings committed by Orthodox Jews.

Reflecting back on his time in the City Council, Greenfield shared that as chairman of the land use committee, he participated in one meeting where an official said that a project required a second look because it involved “one of those developers.”  Questioning the statement, Greenfield said that it took him a moment to realize what he had just heard.

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“It hit me as I was sitting there with my yarmulke and a beard that ‘one of those developers’ meant it was someone from the community,” explained Greenfield.

Acknowledging that minority bias does exist, Greenfield stressed the importance of fighting back against unfounded accusations before launching into a passionate speech on calling out those who flout the law.

“When someone is actually guilty, and we know they are guilty, and they’ve embarrassed the community, we should throw them out of our shuls, and we shouldn’t accept them in our communities, and we should send a very clear and straight message that that kind of behavior is unethical, it’s illegal, it goes against halacha and our hashkafa and who we are as Orthodox Jews,” said Greenfield.

Taking a public stance of shunning those who commit crimes would go a long way towards improving the Jewish community’s public image, explained Greenfield.

“When you see that happening, when the next time a guy comes into shul and he did all sorts of horrible things but he is going get shishi because he gives $10,000 a year to the shul, when you throw the bum out, that’s when you’ll start seeing the tide will change,” said Greenfield.

Lakewood Township Committee member Meir Lichteinstein suggested that the media’s appetite for stories that portray the Jewish community in a bad light could be a tactic to drive profits, gently chiding Greenfield for falling pretty to the media hype. But Greenfield refused to back down, saying that while there is no doubt that there is media bias against the Orthodox Jewish community, those who are guilty of committing serious crimes should face consequences within the community.

“In some cases where everyone agrees someone did something horrible and offensive and against Torah values and in my opinion that person should be thrown the heck out of the community,” said Greenfield.

Rabbi Schnall and the Agudah’s New York director of government relations, Rabbi Yeruchim Silber, broached the topic of repentance creating atonement for past misdeeds, prompting Greenfield to draw an emphatic parallel between those who steal and those who publicly desecrate Shabbos.

“I think if we are having an honest conversation once a year about the challenges of the community, if you’re asking me, one of the ways to fix that perception is that when that when someone is in fact a crook, or when someone is in fact a gonif, or when someone has in fact done something where he created a massive chilul Hashem where you open up the papers every single day and this guy is in the papers, don’t give him an aliyah,” said Greenfield, adding,  “yes, you can quote me on that. I stand by that just as how if someone pulls up in a Ferrari in front of shul on Shabbos don’t give him an aliyah either.”

Greenfield also respectfully disagreed with Assemblyman-elect Simcha Eichenstein who suggested that how someone is treated when they walk into a synagogue is unrelated to the media’s portrayal of Orthodox Jews. Greenfield criticized the practice of wealthy individuals who have committed crimes being honored at dinners just because they have deep pockets.

“I think the media sees that and they say ‘are you being honest or are you not being honest?’”  remarked Greenfield. “And they are rare exceptions and it is rare that it happens in the community, but when it happens we should set a firm line and say ‘those people do not represent our community,’ because they don’t.”

Watch the discussion below.



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Read Comments (49)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Nov 23, 2018 at 10:22 AM inNY Says:

Unfortunately Greenfield is right

2

 Nov 23, 2018 at 10:28 AM brook Says:

If Greenfield would have said this as a council member, he would have never been reelected in the community..he would have been shunned, shows that he doesn't have the guts to say the truth, only when he is out.

3

 Nov 23, 2018 at 10:32 AM Sys12 Says:

I would love to review the list of all who donated over the years to Greenfield's campaign, and see if i find anyone who is a convicted criminal, would he refund the money?? I'm not so sure.

4

 Nov 23, 2018 at 10:39 AM saywhat Says:

While logically and common-sense Greenfield is right, but halachically i'm not so sure.

5

 Nov 23, 2018 at 10:49 AM notS Says:

David, you’re talking Narishkiten, the fact is the media is looking to sell papers, they couldn’t care less if we give 'Shishi' to criminals in shul or not, it makes a good story to the media to show Jews who hold themselves in a better corrected position then the Goy, is the same criminal as the rest.. that’s what sells.

6

 Nov 23, 2018 at 10:55 AM Phineas Says:

The rich ones would just start their own shuls.

7

 Nov 23, 2018 at 10:58 AM elyeh Says:

Lo Signov; Lo Sa'aneh B'raichah Aid Shaker.

8

 Nov 23, 2018 at 11:07 AM Binumin Says:

Mr. David let me ask you a question...First we can not throw out a person from shul by accusing him of stealing only if a Bes Din rules that he is guilty and has to pay up. So now lets go to step # 2. How fast can you get a bes din today to listen to both sides and give a fair Psak? i was involved in suing someone at beth din for 15,000 . It cost me $12,000 to defend myself i won a judgement from beth din which the other side refused to pay up then i got a heter arkues to sue him in supreme court , and after i won the judgement in court the guy filed for bankruptcy.
So now you have a person ripping you off and still walks into shul.
The bes din does not issue any Seref that this person can not have Aliyeh to the Torah, send his kids to cheder, or being shunned from and social gatherings, so why should he keep to bes din psak if there is no consequences ?

9

 Nov 23, 2018 at 11:44 AM PCG361 Says:

Couldn't agree more. As long as they continue to support kollelim, schools, shuls etc communities will look past their transgressions and honor them even if the financial support is with stolen money. Those of us who don't have money would not get such a pass.

10

 Nov 23, 2018 at 11:47 AM cake Says:

I could only imagine if David would have said this while being a councilman representing Borough Park, he would have gotten hell from so called community leaders..

11

 Nov 23, 2018 at 11:51 AM KJ12 Says:

Agudath Israel, I'm sure David won't be invited again to any discussion panels.

12

 Nov 23, 2018 at 11:59 AM Cixelsyd_Wnosanoy Says:

Reply to #2  
brook Says:

If Greenfield would have said this as a council member, he would have never been reelected in the community..he would have been shunned, shows that he doesn't have the guts to say the truth, only when he is out.

Only...your comment completely supports Greenfield's position

13

 Nov 23, 2018 at 11:59 AM wonder Says:

David, you become met council CEO after the previous executive was a convicted crock, is Rapfogel shunned in your community?

14

 Nov 23, 2018 at 12:09 PM wili Says:

Greenfield was most likely referring to the terrible media stories in past few days of some so called police liaisons...

15

 Nov 23, 2018 at 12:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Unfortunately this is true, I’ve witnessed this firsthand. While I do agree that papers are in business to sell we as frum people should realize who we stand in front of and make better ethical decisions. When u wear a uniform yes u will be judged for it and therefore should behave and go lefnim mishures hadin because that’s what a certain group of people are trained to believe. Also, I’ve seen who gets the respect in shul and it’s not my working class hubby. Then again if I owned a shul which was my sole income and had bills to pay, support my kids in learning etc I don’t know if I’d act differently! Then again I wouldn’t put myself or my family in that position.

16

 Nov 23, 2018 at 12:09 PM Cixelsyd_Wnosanoy Says:

Reply to #8  
Binumin Says:

Mr. David let me ask you a question...First we can not throw out a person from shul by accusing him of stealing only if a Bes Din rules that he is guilty and has to pay up. So now lets go to step # 2. How fast can you get a bes din today to listen to both sides and give a fair Psak? i was involved in suing someone at beth din for 15,000 . It cost me $12,000 to defend myself i won a judgement from beth din which the other side refused to pay up then i got a heter arkues to sue him in supreme court , and after i won the judgement in court the guy filed for bankruptcy.
So now you have a person ripping you off and still walks into shul.
The bes din does not issue any Seref that this person can not have Aliyeh to the Torah, send his kids to cheder, or being shunned from and social gatherings, so why should he keep to bes din psak if there is no consequences ?

Oh cut it out...anyone living in the community sees all the thumb twirling, justifying financial misrepresentation ("...the money went for Torah purposes..."), viscous assault ("...the Torah allows one to beat up a guy who fails to give a Get..."), benefits fraud ("...Hashem gave those programs to us to help Yungeleit...").

So stop twirling your thumbs with all matter of besides the point diversions.

No less than Black leaders, who have had to be honest about crime, family breakdowns and gang activities in their communities, irrespective of underlying causes, our leaders need to be honest about the blots on our communities.

17

 Nov 23, 2018 at 12:13 PM idea Says:

Instead of inviting politicians and rabbis to preach how to handle the media, why don’t Agudath invite actual media outlets to the convention and have a discussion with them in a panel group.

18

 Nov 23, 2018 at 12:38 PM triumphinwhitehouse Says:

Says the guy who made a BACKROOM deal with his best friend and treasurer kalman Yeger, that got the Dem line without having to do the ground work and THEN took a job making $600,000 a YEAR "fighting" poverty and where he brought a bunch of his friends in as underlings. Yes technically what he said is true and sounds good to give musar BUT people in glass houses shouldn't throw bricks which is what he just did.

19

 Nov 23, 2018 at 12:44 PM commonsense99 Says:

Ah mechayah, at least someone had the guts to say it!

20

 Nov 23, 2018 at 12:48 PM Anonymous Says:

define horrible David, sex crimes, financial crimes, is Rubashkin horrible?

21

 Nov 23, 2018 at 01:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
commonsense99 Says:

Ah mechayah, at least someone had the guts to say it!

A FORMER councilman emphasis on the word FORMER next time let's here it from someone a CURRENT councilmember not from someone who no longer needs the support of the people he's criticizing. I can also say everything he said but it will mean nothing just like him saying it after he stopped being a councilman since I (like him) don't need anything from these guys. Talk is cheap when it doesn't affect you

22

 Nov 23, 2018 at 01:37 PM triumphinwhitehouse Says:

Reply to #21  
Anonymous Says:

A FORMER councilman emphasis on the word FORMER next time let's here it from someone a CURRENT councilmember not from someone who no longer needs the support of the people he's criticizing. I can also say everything he said but it will mean nothing just like him saying it after he stopped being a councilman since I (like him) don't need anything from these guys. Talk is cheap when it doesn't affect you

he is saying this, as the people he currently needs money from for his half a million dollar salary will appreciate it, liberal Jews, city council members etc. He is not giving mussar he is appealing to liberals who give him money, why doesn't his puppet Kalman Yeger say something?

23

 Nov 23, 2018 at 01:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
elyeh Says:

Lo Signov; Lo Sa'aneh B'raichah Aid Shaker.

Lo signov = do not steal bodies aka kidnap

You meant "lo sigzual"
That lav only applies to jews not goyim. Stealing from a goy aka gezel akkum is only assur mdarabonan.. And its limited in scope. Cheating in taxes for example may not be stealing at all. Taking bribes is not "stealing".

You do have a dina dmachulsa issue and maybe a chillul hashem. ( the chillul hashem is questionable since when one commits the crime he hopes nobody cacthes him. The chilul only comes much later)

I do not suggest that anyone steal or cheat. But lets put things in a otrah perspective. Akin to chillul shabbos?

24

 Nov 23, 2018 at 01:51 PM Educated Archy Says:

Reply to #16  
Cixelsyd_Wnosanoy Says:

Oh cut it out...anyone living in the community sees all the thumb twirling, justifying financial misrepresentation ("...the money went for Torah purposes..."), viscous assault ("...the Torah allows one to beat up a guy who fails to give a Get..."), benefits fraud ("...Hashem gave those programs to us to help Yungeleit...").

So stop twirling your thumbs with all matter of besides the point diversions.

No less than Black leaders, who have had to be honest about crime, family breakdowns and gang activities in their communities, irrespective of underlying causes, our leaders need to be honest about the blots on our communities.

There we go tricky yoni comes out of the wood work. (As if you weren't around before)

Firstly, you lie too. So what defines you better than the others "in the community"

Secondly, how dare you label everyone and besmirch a community. Isn't that what trump does to Muslims and Latinos? So when we say latinos are murderers and rapists he is a demagogue.But when you say Jews are crooks oh that's all true

Gang activities? Really yup when I walk down 13th avenue I feel excatly like I am walking in Chicago AA streets? You are fear mongering. Just like trump

Hypocrite self hating jew

Shame on you

26

 Nov 23, 2018 at 03:15 PM samuelhigh Says:

Thank you, thank you, thank you Reb Dovid. About time someone spoke the truth.

27

 Nov 23, 2018 at 03:33 PM Esther Says:

It's called a chilul Hashem for a reason. Of course the media,goyim etc. are going to exploit our misdeeds. It's up to us to behave in the proper manner.

28

 Nov 23, 2018 at 04:32 PM jm8047 Says:

Reply to #27  
Esther Says:

It's called a chilul Hashem for a reason. Of course the media,goyim etc. are going to exploit our misdeeds. It's up to us to behave in the proper manner.

I agree 100% with you, I’m tired of hearing excuses for our behavior, our fellow Hareidim Jews always use the Torah for the own benefit, Oh! The halacha is this and this. We make a pilpul and find excuses for our crimes and use the Torah for that. When you’re religious and you showed in the way you dress, not matter your affiliation, you can be Christian, Jewish or Muslim, you’re hold
In a higher standard than the rest of the world.
You cannot have both ways, do things that are against the law and then cry anti Semitic. Oh! The State Trooper give me a ticket and treating me to take me to jail, what anti Semitic! What happened? I was just going 100 miles per hour and didn’t stop. Remember the “Rabbi” that was stopped in Vermont?
I saw the video from the dashcam without any editing

29

 Nov 24, 2018 at 06:26 PM Chaim Says:

David, I didn’t know you are a Posek.

Who decides who is a crook, 12 jurors that you wouldn’t trust in your home (never mind in Shul)?
If a conviction gets thrown out on appeal does the Shul have to allow the person back in, and would you join his minyen again?
Who is a crook, only the ones that get charged?

How about a man that is a liar, stingy, an abusive man, bad middos etc etc etc.. would you daven with their minyen.. let’s say it’s the only Minyen in town??.
On the other hand David has a point, but I’m not sure he’ll find a minyen with only Lamed Vuv Tzadikim in it.
That’s why we have Hashem.. we need to allow him to do his job while we do ours.

30

 Nov 24, 2018 at 06:47 PM triumphinwhitehouse Says:

Reply to #29  
Chaim Says:

David, I didn’t know you are a Posek.

Who decides who is a crook, 12 jurors that you wouldn’t trust in your home (never mind in Shul)?
If a conviction gets thrown out on appeal does the Shul have to allow the person back in, and would you join his minyen again?
Who is a crook, only the ones that get charged?

How about a man that is a liar, stingy, an abusive man, bad middos etc etc etc.. would you daven with their minyen.. let’s say it’s the only Minyen in town??.
On the other hand David has a point, but I’m not sure he’ll find a minyen with only Lamed Vuv Tzadikim in it.
That’s why we have Hashem.. we need to allow him to do his job while we do ours.

Especially he got his current gig in conflict with nyc conflict of interests regulations

31

 Nov 24, 2018 at 08:52 PM Educated Archy Says:

Reply to #29  
Chaim Says:

David, I didn’t know you are a Posek.

Who decides who is a crook, 12 jurors that you wouldn’t trust in your home (never mind in Shul)?
If a conviction gets thrown out on appeal does the Shul have to allow the person back in, and would you join his minyen again?
Who is a crook, only the ones that get charged?

How about a man that is a liar, stingy, an abusive man, bad middos etc etc etc.. would you daven with their minyen.. let’s say it’s the only Minyen in town??.
On the other hand David has a point, but I’m not sure he’ll find a minyen with only Lamed Vuv Tzadikim in it.
That’s why we have Hashem.. we need to allow him to do his job while we do ours.

Well said. And we all know how prosecutors are quick to find a gotcha moment to enhance their career. The FBI, DA etc.. are not such saints. I personally know people who were forced to plea because they feds employed KGB like tactics threatening them that they will lock up his wife too (a mother of small kids) Unless he pleads. Who wants a yiddisha mama to get chopped up in court?

And then yes your fate is decided by 12 stupid people not smart enough to get out of jury duty

32

 Nov 24, 2018 at 09:41 PM ber Says:

Reply to #2  
brook Says:

If Greenfield would have said this as a council member, he would have never been reelected in the community..he would have been shunned, shows that he doesn't have the guts to say the truth, only when he is out.

it shows your a rasha

33

 Nov 24, 2018 at 09:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #29  
Chaim Says:

David, I didn’t know you are a Posek.

Who decides who is a crook, 12 jurors that you wouldn’t trust in your home (never mind in Shul)?
If a conviction gets thrown out on appeal does the Shul have to allow the person back in, and would you join his minyen again?
Who is a crook, only the ones that get charged?

How about a man that is a liar, stingy, an abusive man, bad middos etc etc etc.. would you daven with their minyen.. let’s say it’s the only Minyen in town??.
On the other hand David has a point, but I’m not sure he’ll find a minyen with only Lamed Vuv Tzadikim in it.
That’s why we have Hashem.. we need to allow him to do his job while we do ours.

well, now you know

34

 Nov 24, 2018 at 10:14 PM kodesh Says:

he is Right !!

35

 Nov 24, 2018 at 10:27 PM Know it first hand Says:

I was at a meeting where a lawyer who was involved with the liquidation of National Heritage Life turned to me and named all the so called shiner menten who kashere for Sholam Weiss, scum like that make it so much harder a real erlicher people who trying to a honest living to be taken seriously. Go David GO

36

 Nov 24, 2018 at 11:55 PM Huh? Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

Lo signov = do not steal bodies aka kidnap

You meant "lo sigzual"
That lav only applies to jews not goyim. Stealing from a goy aka gezel akkum is only assur mdarabonan.. And its limited in scope. Cheating in taxes for example may not be stealing at all. Taking bribes is not "stealing".

You do have a dina dmachulsa issue and maybe a chillul hashem. ( the chillul hashem is questionable since when one commits the crime he hopes nobody cacthes him. The chilul only comes much later)

I do not suggest that anyone steal or cheat. But lets put things in a otrah perspective. Akin to chillul shabbos?

Don't flaunt your ignorance so openly!
Stealing from a non-Jew is an issur d'oraisa.

37

 Nov 25, 2018 at 12:56 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
Educated Archy Says:

There we go tricky yoni comes out of the wood work. (As if you weren't around before)

Firstly, you lie too. So what defines you better than the others "in the community"

Secondly, how dare you label everyone and besmirch a community. Isn't that what trump does to Muslims and Latinos? So when we say latinos are murderers and rapists he is a demagogue.But when you say Jews are crooks oh that's all true

Gang activities? Really yup when I walk down 13th avenue I feel excatly like I am walking in Chicago AA streets? You are fear mongering. Just like trump

Hypocrite self hating jew

Shame on you

You are not responding to what #16 said. You did not read the comment carefully at all.

38

 Nov 25, 2018 at 03:03 AM Greener Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

Lo signov = do not steal bodies aka kidnap

You meant "lo sigzual"
That lav only applies to jews not goyim. Stealing from a goy aka gezel akkum is only assur mdarabonan.. And its limited in scope. Cheating in taxes for example may not be stealing at all. Taking bribes is not "stealing".

You do have a dina dmachulsa issue and maybe a chillul hashem. ( the chillul hashem is questionable since when one commits the crime he hopes nobody cacthes him. The chilul only comes much later)

I do not suggest that anyone steal or cheat. But lets put things in a otrah perspective. Akin to chillul shabbos?

I learn something new every day. It's OK to cheat the government (taxes, welfare, etc.) because it's only chilul hashem IF YOU GET CAUGHT. I didn't know that. All these years I have been foolish!

39

 Nov 25, 2018 at 08:37 AM Cl Says:

Why don’t we start with stopping to celebrate and telling kids to emulate ex convicts (like SR) before you throw them out of Shul. I wonder if Mr Greenfeld would throw out his predecessor and someone like Shelly Sulver or is he only talking about visible Chassidim which he appears to dislike. The sins of the people he’s talking about is getting caught. We all know many others who steal govt benefits and stores and rich people who underreport income if we throw them out of shuls we’ll have problems with finding a minyan! About 25 years ago at a similar aguda convention they had a similar simposium on the terrible chilul Hashem of the growing frum prison population. Former Bureau of Prisons Sr Chaplain Jacob Honig made a suggestion similar to a Greenfeld and look where we are today where serving in prison is like going to a beautiful bungalow colony

40

 Nov 25, 2018 at 09:08 AM Educated Archy Says:

Reply to #37  
Anonymous Says:

You are not responding to what #16 said. You did not read the comment carefully at all.

My comment wasn't intended to " respond" to Yoni's comment . It was intended to address his fake obnoxious self hating hypocritical demagoguery tone .

Agree with you . I wasn't responding . I was chastising

41

 Nov 25, 2018 at 09:09 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #36  
Huh? Says:

Don't flaunt your ignorance so openly!
Stealing from a non-Jew is an issur d'oraisa.

Which issur ? Gezel akum? Where in tne Torah ?

Morally wrong ? Yes
Issur? No

42

 Nov 25, 2018 at 09:36 AM jm8047 Says:

Reply to #39  
Cl Says:

Why don’t we start with stopping to celebrate and telling kids to emulate ex convicts (like SR) before you throw them out of Shul. I wonder if Mr Greenfeld would throw out his predecessor and someone like Shelly Sulver or is he only talking about visible Chassidim which he appears to dislike. The sins of the people he’s talking about is getting caught. We all know many others who steal govt benefits and stores and rich people who underreport income if we throw them out of shuls we’ll have problems with finding a minyan! About 25 years ago at a similar aguda convention they had a similar simposium on the terrible chilul Hashem of the growing frum prison population. Former Bureau of Prisons Sr Chaplain Jacob Honig made a suggestion similar to a Greenfeld and look where we are today where serving in prison is like going to a beautiful bungalow colony

This is because the melamdim teach our children, that the goyim at stupid, for generations and we can get away with anything because we are smart, in the last 20 years or maybe more, the Heimishe people spending time in jail went to the roof. Now you understand why the internet is evil, the Rabbunim came in masses against it because they were loosing all the rich people, not because they care for the children, anyone can find anything with a touch of a botton, no more free rides

43

 Nov 25, 2018 at 10:23 AM Anonymous Says:

I have no issue with Billy Rapfogel or any of the three of his cohorts not being given kibbudim same with Shelly Silver. When you have one of the largest operators of nursing homes in Florida in the federal pen, Sholam Weiss who is now doing his second bid and embezzled an insurance company etc etc, and these people are admired by the community? I have more respect for a child molester then I do for these people a molester has metal issues these people dont

44

 Nov 25, 2018 at 11:01 AM FBF37 Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

Lo signov = do not steal bodies aka kidnap

You meant "lo sigzual"
That lav only applies to jews not goyim. Stealing from a goy aka gezel akkum is only assur mdarabonan.. And its limited in scope. Cheating in taxes for example may not be stealing at all. Taking bribes is not "stealing".

You do have a dina dmachulsa issue and maybe a chillul hashem. ( the chillul hashem is questionable since when one commits the crime he hopes nobody cacthes him. The chilul only comes much later)

I do not suggest that anyone steal or cheat. But lets put things in a otrah perspective. Akin to chillul shabbos?

You are the problem with today's frum world. Amazing you can think this way. Name me one Rav, just one that agrees with your way of thinking. Better yet name me one askan who believes this.

45

 Nov 25, 2018 at 12:22 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #44  
FBF37 Says:

You are the problem with today's frum world. Amazing you can think this way. Name me one Rav, just one that agrees with your way of thinking. Better yet name me one askan who believes this.

Every rov agrees.

Notice I never said its advisable to steal . But you'll have a hard time finding a source in our torah.

You make a very strong moral argument but you can't put something inthe torah thats not there

46

 Nov 25, 2018 at 12:44 PM triumphinwhitehouse Says:

Reply to #39  
Cl Says:

Why don’t we start with stopping to celebrate and telling kids to emulate ex convicts (like SR) before you throw them out of Shul. I wonder if Mr Greenfeld would throw out his predecessor and someone like Shelly Sulver or is he only talking about visible Chassidim which he appears to dislike. The sins of the people he’s talking about is getting caught. We all know many others who steal govt benefits and stores and rich people who underreport income if we throw them out of shuls we’ll have problems with finding a minyan! About 25 years ago at a similar aguda convention they had a similar simposium on the terrible chilul Hashem of the growing frum prison population. Former Bureau of Prisons Sr Chaplain Jacob Honig made a suggestion similar to a Greenfeld and look where we are today where serving in prison is like going to a beautiful bungalow colony

What about Syrian jews whom greenfield is very cozy with?

47

 Nov 25, 2018 at 12:46 PM jm8047 Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

Lo signov = do not steal bodies aka kidnap

You meant "lo sigzual"
That lav only applies to jews not goyim. Stealing from a goy aka gezel akkum is only assur mdarabonan.. And its limited in scope. Cheating in taxes for example may not be stealing at all. Taking bribes is not "stealing".

You do have a dina dmachulsa issue and maybe a chillul hashem. ( the chillul hashem is questionable since when one commits the crime he hopes nobody cacthes him. The chilul only comes much later)

I do not suggest that anyone steal or cheat. But lets put things in a otrah perspective. Akin to chillul shabbos?

Again, using the Torah for our own benefit, you can make a pilpul of the situation, but when became a difference between the Torah and the Rabbunim?we always teach our children that Torah Bal’PEh is the same than Torah Sh’beksav. The hypocrisy is our worst enemy, we can do anything illegal and if we get caught cry anti Semitic. Stop pretending that we are holy and Hashem is in our side. Be a better Person and stop using Him and the Torah for your own benefit,that what Hashem wants.
Pirkei Abot explains very clear this issue

48

 Nov 25, 2018 at 01:13 PM jm8047 Says:

Reply to #16  
Cixelsyd_Wnosanoy Says:

Oh cut it out...anyone living in the community sees all the thumb twirling, justifying financial misrepresentation ("...the money went for Torah purposes..."), viscous assault ("...the Torah allows one to beat up a guy who fails to give a Get..."), benefits fraud ("...Hashem gave those programs to us to help Yungeleit...").

So stop twirling your thumbs with all matter of besides the point diversions.

No less than Black leaders, who have had to be honest about crime, family breakdowns and gang activities in their communities, irrespective of underlying causes, our leaders need to be honest about the blots on our communities.

The most used words are, Hashem is in our side, you can see that in every affiliation, Satmar, Lubavitch, all chassidic groups, all the Lakewood groups, all the religious political parties in Israel, Naturei Kartah, no matter who you are. Hashem is the excuse for machlokes, Sinas Chinat, who will be the Rebbe, who will win the elections in Israel and on and on. We forgot the Torah teachings long time ago and we use Hashem and the Torah for our crooked behavior.

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 Nov 25, 2018 at 02:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #47  
jm8047 Says:

Again, using the Torah for our own benefit, you can make a pilpul of the situation, but when became a difference between the Torah and the Rabbunim?we always teach our children that Torah Bal’PEh is the same than Torah Sh’beksav. The hypocrisy is our worst enemy, we can do anything illegal and if we get caught cry anti Semitic. Stop pretending that we are holy and Hashem is in our side. Be a better Person and stop using Him and the Torah for your own benefit,that what Hashem wants.
Pirkei Abot explains very clear this issue

Yup true.

Never step even upon a very small mitzva/ avero. But its not as as bad as chillul shabbos. Those are just the hard core facts. I'd love for it it to differ but its just not up to me or you to alter our torah.

Noone is using our torah to steal. I am just saying the prohibition is just not there very strongly

50

 Nov 27, 2018 at 02:20 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

Every rov agrees.

Notice I never said its advisable to steal . But you'll have a hard time finding a source in our torah.

You make a very strong moral argument but you can't put something inthe torah thats not there

Tosefta says stealing from a non jew is worse than a jew.
Smag says that jews like you are preventing mashiach from coming.

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