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Lakewood, NJ - Feds Charge Man In $10 Million Health Care Fraud

Published on: December 17, 2018 12:44 PM
Last updated on: December 17, 2018 01:25 PM
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New Jersey - A Lakewood, New Jersey, insurance producer was charged today with conspiring to defraud several Blue Cross Blue Shield health care insurance affiliates of more than $10 million, U.S. Attorney Craig Carpenito announced today.

Jonas Knopf, 63, of Lakewood, was charged by complaint with one count of conspiring to defraud three health care Blue Cross Blue Shield (BCBS) affiliates in Pennsylvania and the Washington, D.C., area. He is scheduled to appear today before U.S. Magistrate Judge Steven C. Mannion in Newark federal court.

According to documents filed in this case and statements made in court:

From 2009 to 2017, Knopf was the chief executive officer of Madison Financial Services (MFS) and a licensed insurance producer – a person who is licensed to sell insurance products.

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MFS was the parent company of 11 sham companies created by Knopf and others solely for the purpose of marketing health insurance coverage to people who were not, in fact, his employees.

These companies purported to be located and doing business in Pennsylvania and/or Virginia, and created the appearance of employment status for hundreds of individuals, largely Lakewood residents who were seeking health care coverage through BCBS benefit plans.

The conspiracy began in Pennsylvania, and lasted until 2013, when an internal BCBS investigation uncovered irregularities in the information submitted by Knopf and others through his sham companies. Ultimately, the Pennsylvania Department of Insurance initiated an investigation and Knopf surrendered his Pennsylvania insurance producer’s license and ceased operation in the state. The conspiracy, however, continued in Virginia.

Knopf’s clients or purported employees paid him inflated insurance premiums as well as providing him with monies for payroll; Knopf, in turn, issued fake payroll checks, giving the false impression that they were actually employees being paid for services rendered. The conspiracy continued until January 2017. The conspiracy caused the health care insurers to pay out more than $10 million in fraudulent claims.

The count of conspiracy to commit health care fraud carries a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine.

His attorney, Michael Gilbert, countered the government’s accusation of Knopf as a scam artist.

“He is an outstanding individual and a businessman with an unblemished record and we are confident that he will ultimately be vindicated,” Gilbert said.

The charge and allegations contained in the complaint, are merely accusations, and the defendant is presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty.



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1

 Dec 17, 2018 at 02:02 PM Eduacted Archy Says:

"The conspiracy caused the health care insurers to pay out more than $10 million in fraudulent claims."

Let me out this in perspective,
1) its ten million over 8 years not one year
2) In all likelihood these guys would have had insurance anyhow esp since the pre existing clause. Its just premuims would be a drop a higher.

Far from 10 million. But fake news loves to blow things up

2

 Dec 17, 2018 at 02:34 PM Lawrence M. Reisman Says:

Reply to #1  
Eduacted Archy Says:

"The conspiracy caused the health care insurers to pay out more than $10 million in fraudulent claims."

Let me out this in perspective,
1) its ten million over 8 years not one year
2) In all likelihood these guys would have had insurance anyhow esp since the pre existing clause. Its just premuims would be a drop a higher.

Far from 10 million. But fake news loves to blow things up

$10 million over eight years is still $1.25 million per year, which is a hefty fraud. And there was no mandatory coverage for pre-existing conditions (except for those with health insurance previously) until 2014, the first year of Obamacare.

This sounds like a repeat of an insurance scheme perpetrated by a chassidshe Yid in Boro Park 25 years ago, except that one was for over $80 million.

3

 Dec 17, 2018 at 02:37 PM ercsd Says:

Reply to #1  
Eduacted Archy Says:

"The conspiracy caused the health care insurers to pay out more than $10 million in fraudulent claims."

Let me out this in perspective,
1) its ten million over 8 years not one year
2) In all likelihood these guys would have had insurance anyhow esp since the pre existing clause. Its just premuims would be a drop a higher.

Far from 10 million. But fake news loves to blow things up

"Eduacted"-What does that mean?
Good try at trying to downplay this fraud. 100's of people participated in this fraud.
They should also be charged. Another black eye for the Lakewood community.

4

 Dec 17, 2018 at 03:23 PM The Professor Says:

It's probably not the claims that were fraudulent - it was the fact that the accused created companies for which the insured "worked" because it allowed them to get lower group rates. It was geneivas da'as perpetrated on Blue Cross Blue Shield, because the insured were most likely self-employed, or learners, or both. Unfortunately, if the charges are true a terrible chilul HaShem has occurred, and all Jews (even you, Archie) will continue to be described as being unethical, conniving and every other adjective contained in the vocabulary of the average, garden-variety bigot.

5

 Dec 17, 2018 at 03:26 PM Vozizalt Says:

So Archy, Let me get this straight.
It's OK to use all your energy to set up multiple sham companies. So that you can commit fraud, since its only a drop higher in premiums?
You mean this Tzaddik, spent years figuring a way to outsmart the system, in order for so many young "frum" co-conspirators who obviously knew it was wrong so that they could save a few dollars?
That is the correct "Torah" way?
Shame on you and shame on each and every one who were a part of this.
When your non Jewish neighbors spill vile talk about the Jews, this is where it comes from. This is a CHILUL HA-SHEM plain and simple.
So UNEDUCATED Archy don't minimize theft.
I am agahst at you and all of those who condone such action.

6

 Dec 17, 2018 at 03:33 PM Speaksoftly Says:

It's not about fraudulent "claims". Its about fraudulent employees whose genuine medical claims were being paid. Thus the insurance companies were out the difference in premiums.

7

 Dec 17, 2018 at 03:36 PM That is the problem Says:

Reply to #1  
Eduacted Archy Says:

"The conspiracy caused the health care insurers to pay out more than $10 million in fraudulent claims."

Let me out this in perspective,
1) its ten million over 8 years not one year
2) In all likelihood these guys would have had insurance anyhow esp since the pre existing clause. Its just premuims would be a drop a higher.

Far from 10 million. But fake news loves to blow things up

OK let me steal 8 million from you if its no big deal, ah gonif is a gonif is ah gonif, its people like you that give frim people a bad name

8

 Dec 17, 2018 at 03:36 PM takeittothem Says:

Reply to #1  
Eduacted Archy Says:

"The conspiracy caused the health care insurers to pay out more than $10 million in fraudulent claims."

Let me out this in perspective,
1) its ten million over 8 years not one year
2) In all likelihood these guys would have had insurance anyhow esp since the pre existing clause. Its just premuims would be a drop a higher.

Far from 10 million. But fake news loves to blow things up

are you 'educated' or 'eduacted'?
who the hell are you?

9

 Dec 17, 2018 at 04:03 PM 4yourinfo Says:

Let me pose a question How many people do you know who created a so called LLC just to be eligible for health insurance? This ain't much different...

10

 Dec 17, 2018 at 04:45 PM Phineas Says:

Reply to #1  
Eduacted Archy Says:

"The conspiracy caused the health care insurers to pay out more than $10 million in fraudulent claims."

Let me out this in perspective,
1) its ten million over 8 years not one year
2) In all likelihood these guys would have had insurance anyhow esp since the pre existing clause. Its just premuims would be a drop a higher.

Far from 10 million. But fake news loves to blow things up

Sham companies, fake employees. Yup sounds like your definition of kosher

11

 Dec 17, 2018 at 04:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Another one who took very good care of himself , not caring about the poor slob who had to pay his exorbitant premiums !!!

12

 Dec 17, 2018 at 04:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Vozizalt Says:

So Archy, Let me get this straight.
It's OK to use all your energy to set up multiple sham companies. So that you can commit fraud, since its only a drop higher in premiums?
You mean this Tzaddik, spent years figuring a way to outsmart the system, in order for so many young "frum" co-conspirators who obviously knew it was wrong so that they could save a few dollars?
That is the correct "Torah" way?
Shame on you and shame on each and every one who were a part of this.
When your non Jewish neighbors spill vile talk about the Jews, this is where it comes from. This is a CHILUL HA-SHEM plain and simple.
So UNEDUCATED Archy don't minimize theft.
I am agahst at you and all of those who condone such action.

Archy is the guy who defending Trump all the time. Next to Trumps ganejves this is a very small thing for EDUCATED.

13

 Dec 17, 2018 at 05:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Eduacted Archy Says:

"The conspiracy caused the health care insurers to pay out more than $10 million in fraudulent claims."

Let me out this in perspective,
1) its ten million over 8 years not one year
2) In all likelihood these guys would have had insurance anyhow esp since the pre existing clause. Its just premuims would be a drop a higher.

Far from 10 million. But fake news loves to blow things up

Educated Arch, This is the kind of scam your super hero Donald J Trump would do. The total was $10 million over 8 years. Have you perpetrated a scam of over a million a year?
Crime is crime and it's inexusablewhether done by Donald Trump or a man in Lakewood .

14

 Dec 17, 2018 at 05:07 PM Straitalk Says:

Reply to #5  
Vozizalt Says:

So Archy, Let me get this straight.
It's OK to use all your energy to set up multiple sham companies. So that you can commit fraud, since its only a drop higher in premiums?
You mean this Tzaddik, spent years figuring a way to outsmart the system, in order for so many young "frum" co-conspirators who obviously knew it was wrong so that they could save a few dollars?
That is the correct "Torah" way?
Shame on you and shame on each and every one who were a part of this.
When your non Jewish neighbors spill vile talk about the Jews, this is where it comes from. This is a CHILUL HA-SHEM plain and simple.
So UNEDUCATED Archy don't minimize theft.
I am agahst at you and all of those who condone such action.

Archie is not off. Yes, you are right that it is a chillul Hashem. Yes nobody should have done this. Yes it was stealing from the insurance company. But, the insurance company did not lose $10 million. They PAID $10 million, which they would’ve paid anyway had these people paid regular rates in premiums. What these people did was to cheat, yes cheat, to get lowered premiums. If they would’ve made bogus claims on their policies in the amount of $10 million, that would be $10 million worth of stealing. This was stealing the difference in premium price.

15

 Dec 17, 2018 at 05:09 PM Straitalk Says:

Reply to #9  
4yourinfo Says:

Let me pose a question How many people do you know who created a so called LLC just to be eligible for health insurance? This ain't much different...

The difference is the group rate by a large employer.

16

 Dec 17, 2018 at 05:14 PM whataworld Says:

Why is this called fraudalanat claims. Fraudalanat policies would seem more accurate. Nothing was wrong with the claims, only with the premiums according to the article.

17

 Dec 17, 2018 at 05:20 PM Educated Archy Says:

Reply to #3  
ercsd Says:

"Eduacted"-What does that mean?
Good try at trying to downplay this fraud. 100's of people participated in this fraud.
They should also be charged. Another black eye for the Lakewood community.

if the greatest crime Lakewood does is to help yidden who generally don't abuse the system and cost alot less than goyim, get insurance then I know we are in good shape

18

 Dec 17, 2018 at 05:21 PM Educated Archy Says:

Reply to #5  
Vozizalt Says:

So Archy, Let me get this straight.
It's OK to use all your energy to set up multiple sham companies. So that you can commit fraud, since its only a drop higher in premiums?
You mean this Tzaddik, spent years figuring a way to outsmart the system, in order for so many young "frum" co-conspirators who obviously knew it was wrong so that they could save a few dollars?
That is the correct "Torah" way?
Shame on you and shame on each and every one who were a part of this.
When your non Jewish neighbors spill vile talk about the Jews, this is where it comes from. This is a CHILUL HA-SHEM plain and simple.
So UNEDUCATED Archy don't minimize theft.
I am agahst at you and all of those who condone such action.

Its not OK. But it's a small crime.

19

 Dec 17, 2018 at 05:23 PM Educated Archy Says:

Reply to #7  
That is the problem Says:

OK let me steal 8 million from you if its no big deal, ah gonif is a gonif is ah gonif, its people like you that give frim people a bad name

If i made 100 of millions over ten years and you steal 8 million to help poor people get insurance then yes its no big deal.

20

 Dec 17, 2018 at 05:24 PM Educated Archy Says:

Reply to #4  
The Professor Says:

It's probably not the claims that were fraudulent - it was the fact that the accused created companies for which the insured "worked" because it allowed them to get lower group rates. It was geneivas da'as perpetrated on Blue Cross Blue Shield, because the insured were most likely self-employed, or learners, or both. Unfortunately, if the charges are true a terrible chilul HaShem has occurred, and all Jews (even you, Archie) will continue to be described as being unethical, conniving and every other adjective contained in the vocabulary of the average, garden-variety bigot.

Yamsar/ Yoni comes out of his cell with new fake stealing names. Big talker if you are so honest you'd stick to one user name. Professor Reisman.

21

 Dec 17, 2018 at 06:06 PM yaakov doe Says:

Reply to #18  
Educated Archy Says:

Its not OK. But it's a small crime.

Educated Archy, It's another chillul Hashem which according to many sources is an avairah for which there is no forgiveness. It impacts our community not just the accused.

22

 Dec 17, 2018 at 06:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Agreed, that portraying it as $10 million dollar fraud is misleading, as that wasn’t the amount of the theft, but chances are, no one would have otherwise qualified for this insurance, regardless of price, because of:
1) out of state insurers
2) and I’m assuming, out of network coverage

23

 Dec 17, 2018 at 06:50 PM Phineas Says:

Archy is the arbiter of what constitutes small crimes. Frum jews and Trump associates commit small crimes, immigrants and Clintons commit heinous felonies.

24

 Dec 17, 2018 at 07:45 PM PaulinSaudi Says:

As I asked previously why is it that the Orthodox community has more than their proportionate share of fraud indictments? Doesn't kosher apply to more than just food?

25

 Dec 17, 2018 at 07:53 PM Educated Archy Says:

Wait and let me remind everyone of one more pointer .

The insurance company " paid. Ten mill in claims "

How much did they earn in premiums over ten years from these guys ?
I am willing to bet they made ten million at least in premiums . ( 50 times 20000 a year )

Net cost = zero dollars

What do you say all you big talkers ? Do u really think blue cross lost money ?

Bad yes . But is it the worse scam ?

26

 Dec 17, 2018 at 08:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Educated Archy Says:

If i made 100 of millions over ten years and you steal 8 million to help poor people get insurance then yes its no big deal.

Poor people are getting Obamacare what you are against all the time. Stop lying.

27

 Dec 17, 2018 at 08:51 PM Phineas Says:

Reply to #25  
Educated Archy Says:

Wait and let me remind everyone of one more pointer .

The insurance company " paid. Ten mill in claims "

How much did they earn in premiums over ten years from these guys ?
I am willing to bet they made ten million at least in premiums . ( 50 times 20000 a year )

Net cost = zero dollars

What do you say all you big talkers ? Do u really think blue cross lost money ?

Bad yes . But is it the worse scam ?

No, they did not make tens of millions in premiums but you are basically kashering geneiva which makes sense given your abiding admiration for our president.

28

 Dec 17, 2018 at 08:52 PM Phineas Says:

Reply to #25  
Educated Archy Says:

Wait and let me remind everyone of one more pointer .

The insurance company " paid. Ten mill in claims "

How much did they earn in premiums over ten years from these guys ?
I am willing to bet they made ten million at least in premiums . ( 50 times 20000 a year )

Net cost = zero dollars

What do you say all you big talkers ? Do u really think blue cross lost money ?

Bad yes . But is it the worse scam ?

No, it's not as bad as Madoff
The man should get off with a warning and an angry emoji sent to his phone

29

 Dec 17, 2018 at 08:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
PaulinSaudi Says:

As I asked previously why is it that the Orthodox community has more than their proportionate share of fraud indictments? Doesn't kosher apply to more than just food?

I explained it to you before.
1)Orthodox People have large families B"H (Thank G-d) and need the extra money.
2)Orthodox people are white color workers (Lawyers,Acct.Brokers etc) so they commit white color crimes. I never met an orthodox miner or steelworker in my life
3) Unfortunately we are greedy.
4) Fortunately its rare that we get caught. Less than 2% of Tax returns get audited
5)Yes Kosher is more than just food, but we pick and choose what we keep. One orthodox keeps 100% Kosher and lies and steals etc the other Orthodox is 100% honest and not so strictly kosher etc. There are many many different version of Orthodox.
6) The sad fact that so many orthodox voted for Trump explains it clearly. Their version of honesty is very similar to Trumps.

30

 Dec 17, 2018 at 08:59 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #25  
Educated Archy Says:

Wait and let me remind everyone of one more pointer .

The insurance company " paid. Ten mill in claims "

How much did they earn in premiums over ten years from these guys ?
I am willing to bet they made ten million at least in premiums . ( 50 times 20000 a year )

Net cost = zero dollars

What do you say all you big talkers ? Do u really think blue cross lost money ?

Bad yes . But is it the worse scam ?

"They made 10 million at least in Premiums" So that makes it "BAD" or it still a crime.

31

 Dec 17, 2018 at 09:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #25  
Educated Archy Says:

Wait and let me remind everyone of one more pointer .

The insurance company " paid. Ten mill in claims "

How much did they earn in premiums over ten years from these guys ?
I am willing to bet they made ten million at least in premiums . ( 50 times 20000 a year )

Net cost = zero dollars

What do you say all you big talkers ? Do u really think blue cross lost money ?

Bad yes . But is it the worse scam ?

"But is it the worse scam" NO Not even close. The biggest scam in the USA was Trumps Election. This fellow scammed some Ins co. (You claim they made some money on him) Trump scammed 98% of the USA. Took our money and gave it to the Huge Corporations and Billioners. Now stocks collapsing, interest rates rising, Obamacare is the law and not a single inch of the wall.

32

 Dec 17, 2018 at 09:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
Phineas Says:

Archy is the arbiter of what constitutes small crimes. Frum jews and Trump associates commit small crimes, immigrants and Clintons commit heinous felonies.

Not all illegals commit crimes and not all Clintons are criminals.

32

 Dec 17, 2018 at 09:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
PaulinSaudi Says:

As I asked previously why is it that the Orthodox community has more than their proportionate share of fraud indictments? Doesn't kosher apply to more than just food?

Yoni, what is your problem? What are you trying to accomplish by making these stupid statements?

33

 Dec 17, 2018 at 10:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Eduacted Archy Says:

"The conspiracy caused the health care insurers to pay out more than $10 million in fraudulent claims."

Let me out this in perspective,
1) its ten million over 8 years not one year
2) In all likelihood these guys would have had insurance anyhow esp since the pre existing clause. Its just premuims would be a drop a higher.

Far from 10 million. But fake news loves to blow things up

Since you know it all answer this...

1. How much did the people save in insurance costs by getting insurance this way?

2. How much in benefits did they receive that they would not have received had they gotten insurance via the legal options?

3. Did these people report the fake salary as income so they can get the Earned Income Tax Credit and qualify for other social programs? What is the cost of that? FYI, all these people who got insurance this way will have their tax returns pulled and their welfare benefits examined to see if there was massive welfare fraud committed this way as well, which I am guessing there was.

My thoughts, we do not have enough information to determine the full extent of fraud committed, but it is bad enough.

That said, even a million in fraud is enough to get a nice jail sentence, so no, this can't be washed away by saying it is so little.

Also an attitude that fraud is okay on any scale, is truly indicative of a rotten outlook. Maybe people should be educated and at least attempt to get the best jobs (if all these Yeshiva guys are so smart they can be lawyers and doctors and cover their bills) so they don't have to engage in such shameful fraud.

34

 Dec 17, 2018 at 10:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #25  
Educated Archy Says:

Wait and let me remind everyone of one more pointer .

The insurance company " paid. Ten mill in claims "

How much did they earn in premiums over ten years from these guys ?
I am willing to bet they made ten million at least in premiums . ( 50 times 20000 a year )

Net cost = zero dollars

What do you say all you big talkers ? Do u really think blue cross lost money ?

Bad yes . But is it the worse scam ?

I would suspect that if you were to even to suggest to the judge in this case or even give an inkling that such was your reasoning, he would feel a need to make the sentence as tough as possible to help correct the thought-process suggested here. It is really pathetic. You are just not a good citizen. Fortunately the US offers many protections for folks like you and hopefully a few jail sentences and maybe some minimal government interference can right the ship. It would be in all our interests that your attitude does not come to be reflective of the vast majority of Jews who find what you are espousing to be despicable. Maybe such an attitude works for Trump, but somehow I don't think you would be as well received by the right-wind GOP'ers that voted for him.

35

 Dec 17, 2018 at 10:50 PM ercsd Says:

Reply to #25  
Educated Archy Says:

Wait and let me remind everyone of one more pointer .

The insurance company " paid. Ten mill in claims "

How much did they earn in premiums over ten years from these guys ?
I am willing to bet they made ten million at least in premiums . ( 50 times 20000 a year )

Net cost = zero dollars

What do you say all you big talkers ? Do u really think blue cross lost money ?

Bad yes . But is it the worse scam ?

Do the math again. Stop trying to defend people that commit crimes.

36

 Dec 17, 2018 at 11:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Just asking, what difference does it really make for the insurance company if the group that buys insurance works in one company or they just teamed up to have the purchase power of a large group, the law should be changed to have some common sense...
Just a tought.

37

 Dec 18, 2018 at 12:53 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
PaulinSaudi Says:

As I asked previously why is it that the Orthodox community has more than their proportionate share of fraud indictments? Doesn't kosher apply to more than just food?

More than their proportionate share? Not sure. There are three statistical effects in play with the data that I know about:

1) I consume Jewish media, which disproportionately covers Jewish fraud. I'm not interested too much in outside stuff, so that's what I see.

2) There's a general principle in journalism: Dog bites man - not a story; Man bites dog - front page news.

3) People remember things in curious ways that have no relation to empirical fact. If one story/incident has a feature outstanding to you personally, you'll remember it much better than a dozen other stories/incidents that are identical except for that feature. A good example is US domestic terrorism statistics, which clearly indicate that the primary domestic threat is from white christian males born here, not brown muslim male immigrants.

38

 Dec 18, 2018 at 12:56 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
PaulinSaudi Says:

As I asked previously why is it that the Orthodox community has more than their proportionate share of fraud indictments? Doesn't kosher apply to more than just food?

I'm afraid that there may be another shoe to drop yet in this case: This case is for a private insurance company, but the same fake income can be used to qualify for government benefits.

39

 Dec 18, 2018 at 02:06 AM Greener Says:

I fail to understand how Trump comes up in this matter. But there is an important bit of information that is lacking - about the shape of Knopf's hat. Would someone who knows please fill out the following multiple choice question:
[ ] black hat with knaitch
[ ] flat black hat
[ ] bowler hat
[ ] shtreimel on shabbos
[ ] none of the above
[ ] all of the above

40

 Dec 18, 2018 at 02:31 AM Donald Trump Says:

I just love the fact that somehow this fraud perpetrated by Herring & Kugel Fressers is somehow connected to me.... Ha ha ha ha ...
I just love it ...

41

 Dec 18, 2018 at 06:12 AM qazxc Says:

Very serious crimes if true.

If left unpunished insurance scams threaten the long term stability of insurance companies upon which much if our financial system is based. Much like crimes which could collapse the banking system if allowed to become common place, crimea against insurance companies are serious felonies that bring serious punishment.

The integrity of the banks, insurance companies, of financial and commodities markets must be is essential for the stability and ultimately the viability of a modern capitalist system.

These lessons were learned the hard way in 1929. A collapse of investors' faith in the legitimacy of the system today would be cataclysmic. Think the Great Depression on steroids.

So yes, these are allegations of serious crimes that cannot be ignored and if true will likely be severely punished, particularly if the accused is found guilty at trial.

Very serious allegations.

42

 Dec 18, 2018 at 06:20 AM Educated Archy Says:

Reply to #24  
PaulinSaudi Says:

As I asked previously why is it that the Orthodox community has more than their proportionate share of fraud indictments? Doesn't kosher apply to more than just food?

Nope yamsar . Kosher is only about food . Their is a concept of kiddush hashem and chillul hashem . But it's complex and questionable if applicable to how we act with other Jews or is it for the goyim too

43

 Dec 18, 2018 at 06:23 AM Educated Archy Says:

Reply to #27  
Phineas Says:

No, they did not make tens of millions in premiums but you are basically kashering geneiva which makes sense given your abiding admiration for our president.

Of course they earned tens of millions in premiums . Come on you don't To be a math genuis for this one .

How much is premiums for one family? Is it not 20k a year ?

You think a top agent like him didn't get 50 families ? 50 q year is one million . Over ten years that's ten mill . He prob got more than that too

44

 Dec 18, 2018 at 06:26 AM Educated Archy Says:

Reply to #33  
Anonymous Says:

Since you know it all answer this...

1. How much did the people save in insurance costs by getting insurance this way?

2. How much in benefits did they receive that they would not have received had they gotten insurance via the legal options?

3. Did these people report the fake salary as income so they can get the Earned Income Tax Credit and qualify for other social programs? What is the cost of that? FYI, all these people who got insurance this way will have their tax returns pulled and their welfare benefits examined to see if there was massive welfare fraud committed this way as well, which I am guessing there was.

My thoughts, we do not have enough information to determine the full extent of fraud committed, but it is bad enough.

That said, even a million in fraud is enough to get a nice jail sentence, so no, this can't be washed away by saying it is so little.

Also an attitude that fraud is okay on any scale, is truly indicative of a rotten outlook. Maybe people should be educated and at least attempt to get the best jobs (if all these Yeshiva guys are so smart they can be lawyers and doctors and cover their bills) so they don't have to engage in such shameful fraud.

Lock people up for a million on fraud ? That's very cruel . Even low level drug offenders are now getting nothing . To take a 63 yr old man with a family and cruelly lock him up ? Sounds cruel . Just make him pay it back or make him work in public service . That's what our Torah says to do

45

 Dec 18, 2018 at 06:29 AM Educated Archy Says:

Reply to #35  
ercsd Says:

Do the math again. Stop trying to defend people that commit crimes.

SHow me the math . This classic fake news . And it's classic prosecutors tactics to advance his career . Make blaring headlines that he stole ten mill dollars . Nonsense . He received ten million in health claims but brought in over ten mill on premiums . You wanna call that stealing ? Ok but say it the way it is . The geeedy company still made money from
Him

46

 Dec 18, 2018 at 09:59 AM Educated Archy Says:

Reply to #41  
qazxc Says:

Very serious crimes if true.

If left unpunished insurance scams threaten the long term stability of insurance companies upon which much if our financial system is based. Much like crimes which could collapse the banking system if allowed to become common place, crimea against insurance companies are serious felonies that bring serious punishment.

The integrity of the banks, insurance companies, of financial and commodities markets must be is essential for the stability and ultimately the viability of a modern capitalist system.

These lessons were learned the hard way in 1929. A collapse of investors' faith in the legitimacy of the system today would be cataclysmic. Think the Great Depression on steroids.

So yes, these are allegations of serious crimes that cannot be ignored and if true will likely be severely punished, particularly if the accused is found guilty at trial.

Very serious allegations.

Oh my very serious crimes? You mean as bad as rapping or killing someone??

"The long term stability and faith in our system"
I love that line. That's like straight out of the NPR play book. Its exactly what they say about the russain meddling etc...

This is all nonsense. No faith in our system is lost. And the insurance companies won't collapse. As i pointed out they brought in more money than they paid out vis via premiums . They ain't collapsing at all.. They just would have brought in a few more bucks without the scam.

A greater threat to our system is forcing them to accept pre existing conditons via law. That while legal could bring down our system. And it defies the whole concept of insurance which is to buy when healthy for future sick days.

Yamsar/ yoni/ phineas, you argument may sound intellectual and right off NPR but its hot air. Its nonsense.

This was a very small crimes and i hope he gets off via paying the money back and goodbye

47

 Dec 18, 2018 at 10:06 AM Phineas Says:

Reply to #43  
Educated Archy Says:

Of course they earned tens of millions in premiums . Come on you don't To be a math genuis for this one .

How much is premiums for one family? Is it not 20k a year ?

You think a top agent like him didn't get 50 families ? 50 q year is one million . Over ten years that's ten mill . He prob got more than that too

Premiums dont come close to that

48

 Dec 18, 2018 at 10:07 AM Phineas Says:

When we came to America we were mevatel chosen mishpat. Surprised daf yomi still learns the Bava masechtas.

49

 Dec 18, 2018 at 10:58 AM Educated Archy Says:

Reply to #47  
Phineas Says:

Premiums dont come close to that

Fake news yoni. Show me the math.

How much are health care premiums for a family per year? Come on big talker. How much? Do you have health insurance? Maybe you are on medicad?
Yes premuims are 20k a year alibiet some may be paid by the employer but blue cross physically gets 20k a year.

Show me the math big talker. One line answers with no substance holds no water

50

 Dec 18, 2018 at 11:00 AM Educated Archy Says:

Reply to #48  
Phineas Says:

When we came to America we were mevatel chosen mishpat. Surprised daf yomi still learns the Bava masechtas.

what does it say in choshon mishpat? You know that you may be suprised that alot of shtick is mutar lahlacha. I don't suggest anyone do it. But from pure halacha??? And not so pashut that it started "when we came to america".

51

 Dec 18, 2018 at 05:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #44  
Educated Archy Says:

Lock people up for a million on fraud ? That's very cruel . Even low level drug offenders are now getting nothing . To take a 63 yr old man with a family and cruelly lock him up ? Sounds cruel . Just make him pay it back or make him work in public service . That's what our Torah says to do

Torah says many things. In Gemara it says to train you child so he can get a job and not steal. It says it is better to pick up garbage then take charity. Maybe if you listened to those dictates you would not have to argue that the US should pick punishments for crimes based on what you think the Torah says. Further, you live in the US, which is required by Noachide laws to have a system of justice. It is not required to align with what you think the Torah says the punishments are.

So really, I am convinced not only do you not know anything worldly, likely due to a poor education, you don't either know the Torah. I guess if the education regulations result in more secular studies, the future versions of you, will at least have a chance of being educated in at least the secular stuff. As to being educated in what the Torah wants from you, if a full day of study devoted to that has not helped yet, I doubt anything will. Maybe gainful employment, would give you a new perspective on living in the real world that the Torah wants you to do. Maybe some can gain insight from learning alone, but you definitely don't fit that bill.

52

 Dec 18, 2018 at 08:18 PM Educated Archy Says:

Reply to #51  
Anonymous Says:

Torah says many things. In Gemara it says to train you child so he can get a job and not steal. It says it is better to pick up garbage then take charity. Maybe if you listened to those dictates you would not have to argue that the US should pick punishments for crimes based on what you think the Torah says. Further, you live in the US, which is required by Noachide laws to have a system of justice. It is not required to align with what you think the Torah says the punishments are.

So really, I am convinced not only do you not know anything worldly, likely due to a poor education, you don't either know the Torah. I guess if the education regulations result in more secular studies, the future versions of you, will at least have a chance of being educated in at least the secular stuff. As to being educated in what the Torah wants from you, if a full day of study devoted to that has not helped yet, I doubt anything will. Maybe gainful employment, would give you a new perspective on living in the real world that the Torah wants you to do. Maybe some can gain insight from learning alone, but you definitely don't fit that bill.

Oh wow wine sharp words . Again I was referring to the Shuchan aruach . The first thing about education is knowing how to read . In the choshen mishpat you'll be shocked to learn how much is mutter.

Now you can make a moral argument or a chillul hashem argument or a Dina dmalchusa ( which is questionable if it exists in the USA which is not a " Malchus")
Sorry to misinform you but our Torah is not as pc nor does it always conform with your views.
And just like if your ox gores a goys ox you don't owe money even though the goy owes you money if the reverse occurs . So many halchos don't fit with your tight closed minded views

53

 Dec 18, 2018 at 09:53 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #52  
Educated Archy Says:

Oh wow wine sharp words . Again I was referring to the Shuchan aruach . The first thing about education is knowing how to read . In the choshen mishpat you'll be shocked to learn how much is mutter.

Now you can make a moral argument or a chillul hashem argument or a Dina dmalchusa ( which is questionable if it exists in the USA which is not a " Malchus")
Sorry to misinform you but our Torah is not as pc nor does it always conform with your views.
And just like if your ox gores a goys ox you don't owe money even though the goy owes you money if the reverse occurs . So many halchos don't fit with your tight closed minded views

I assume you read my comment. I did not say anything about Dina Dmalchusa nor make a moral judgement, simply pointed out that this country has to have laws and they have to enforce them. If idiots like yourself think they don't have to obey those laws, then when they are enforced against you, it would make sense the penalty is as severe as the law allows. If Halacha allowed you to break these laws, then at least you can still have your olam habah, but that won't help you when you are in jail and can't be there for your family.

Like I said, go to a judge with your mentality, a judge would throw the book at you. Your attitude is harmful for a society to function. Saying you have your own rules for something like stealing, is nuts.

54

 Dec 19, 2018 at 09:52 AM Educated Archy Says:

Reply to #53  
Anonymous Says:

I assume you read my comment. I did not say anything about Dina Dmalchusa nor make a moral judgement, simply pointed out that this country has to have laws and they have to enforce them. If idiots like yourself think they don't have to obey those laws, then when they are enforced against you, it would make sense the penalty is as severe as the law allows. If Halacha allowed you to break these laws, then at least you can still have your olam habah, but that won't help you when you are in jail and can't be there for your family.

Like I said, go to a judge with your mentality, a judge would throw the book at you. Your attitude is harmful for a society to function. Saying you have your own rules for something like stealing, is nuts.

I agree with your point that our country needs to have rules that may or may not conform with our torah. Point well taken.

But how those rules are used and how just those rules are tend to vary. Prosecutors often to advance their careers and/ or seek publicty dig and dig and dig till they find 50 statutes to nail the guy and lock him up for 50 years. That seems too harsh based on silly piety crimes.

When I compare it to our torah, I ma using it as basis to explain the immoralty and unjustness that I see in this mass incarceration laws.

Don't forget for years jews were persecuted based on the "law". Just because something is the "law" that doesn't make it justified.

Disclaimer: I am not saying that the USA law is used to persecute jews. I do think its used to over persecute rich white boys.

55

 Dec 20, 2018 at 12:38 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #54  
Educated Archy Says:

I agree with your point that our country needs to have rules that may or may not conform with our torah. Point well taken.

But how those rules are used and how just those rules are tend to vary. Prosecutors often to advance their careers and/ or seek publicty dig and dig and dig till they find 50 statutes to nail the guy and lock him up for 50 years. That seems too harsh based on silly piety crimes.

When I compare it to our torah, I ma using it as basis to explain the immoralty and unjustness that I see in this mass incarceration laws.

Don't forget for years jews were persecuted based on the "law". Just because something is the "law" that doesn't make it justified.

Disclaimer: I am not saying that the USA law is used to persecute jews. I do think its used to over persecute rich white boys.

Finally something I can mostly agree on.

56

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