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Crown Heights, NY - Famed Posek Rabbi Menashe Klein: Messianic Group Within Chabad Are Apikorsim

Published on: May 6, 2009 10:31 PM
By:  COL Live
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Crown Heights, NY - Rabbi Menashe Klein, a U.S. halachic authority known for his strict rulings, has denounced the messianic group within Chabad in a new book.

In his 17th volume of Mishne Halachos, Klein names people who believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, is still alive, as “Apikoras.”

The spiritual leader of the Ungar community head of the Bais Shearim Yeshiva in Brooklyn, Klein knew the Rebbe before he assumed leadership of the Lubavitch movement.

“This sect of crazies, which falsify the Torah and our sages’ words, to say the Moshiach is dead but is really alive… these are things against our holy Torah.”

His sharp words are an answer to a messianic booklet, which is not identified by name.

Klein continues to write: “Whoever can, should as soon as possible, silence and stop the proclamations after or before the prayers ‘Yechi… King Moshiach’ which is a disgrace to the Rebbe OBM.”

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He ended his attack with a plea: “My intentions are holy - not to destroy the big building the Rebbe OBM built for over 50 years.. may he be an advocate for us and for all the Jewish people, especially his students and Chasidim.”



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1

 May 06, 2009 at 09:39 PM Anonymous Says:

100% correct every word!!
Pure apikorsim!

2

 May 06, 2009 at 09:54 PM FOL Says:

Sadly, people tend to judge an entire movement by some of the more vocal lunatics within, neglecting the recognition of the Rebbe's gadlus in being instrumental in bringing thousands back to Yiddishkeit (B"H Rabbi Klein does recognize him). We are not Lubovitchers but my husband davens in a Lubovitch shteibel because of it's warmth and acceptance of all Jews. The rov of this shul refers to the Rebbe as the Rebbe ZT"L. Remember, the parts do not define the whole. Give Lubovitch a break already.

3

 May 06, 2009 at 09:52 PM Just Thinking Says:

It is time people start to appreciate the great Gadol we were merited to have in this generation. Too bad petty politics Have kept Rav Menashe Klein away from the stage for too long. He is a genious in Psak and fears no one but God.

4

 May 06, 2009 at 09:51 PM liepa Says:

Not just 'apikorsim' but true 'MISHEGOIM'.

5

 May 06, 2009 at 09:50 PM glatekup Says:

Its about time that one of the american gedolim take a stand against this group within the chabad movement.

6

 May 06, 2009 at 09:50 PM Anonymous Says:

I agree. There is no halachic support for this opinion and they are damaging the rep. of "normal Lubavitchers" May the true Moshiach come soon!!!!!!!!!!!!

7

 May 06, 2009 at 09:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Well Said- kol hakavod

8

 May 06, 2009 at 09:51 PM No Joke Says:

The Jews for J have long used the insistence of the Lubavitch Mesianics that either the Rebbe OBM did not really die or will be resurrected to be the Mashiach as a support of their contentions about J. They have stated openly words to the effect - what are the Jews always trying to dismiss their belief in J, his resurrection etc. when the ultra-Orthodox sect of Lubavitch are not saying much different.
The Rebbe OBM did incredible work and was mashpiah on the Jewish world. But he passed on, and we hope he will be a meilitz yosher for klal Yisrael like other gedolim and kedoshim from the past.
Even Rabbi Akiva thought that Bar Kochba was the mashiach until he died and he accepted Bar Kochba's death. How much more so, our generation, who are so much smaller in all aspects than Rabbi Akiva must accept that people pass on, no matter how great they may be. It is a pity that the Lubavitch messianics carry on so, because they tarnish the Rebbe's image and works

9

 May 06, 2009 at 09:48 PM Anonymous Says:

What else is new? This is something everyone has know for the last 15 years! If only those in Chabad (minority or majority) would break with the messianic element, painful as it may be, it would prevent the rest of the Orthodox world (both Charedi and MO) from writing off the entire Chabad movement as messianic.

10

 May 06, 2009 at 10:06 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
liepa Says:

Not just 'apikorsim' but true 'MISHEGOIM'.

Are they really apikorsim? Read the following:

Rav states:
"If Moshiach will come from the living, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh (i.e.Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi), if he comes from the dead, it will be Daniel (the Prophet)..."

Sanhedrin 98:B

Rashi restates Rav's position as follows:
"This means, that if Moshiach were to come from those who are living now, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh…but if (Moshiach) is to come from those who have died already, it will be 'Daniel Ish Chamudos'..."

Rashi-"Ee Min Chaya, Hu Kegon-Rabainu HaKadosh" 98:B

11

 May 06, 2009 at 10:05 PM Anonymous Says:

he didn't say if you believe the Rebbe is Moshiach he said if you believe that the Rebbe is Alive Rabbi Klien is a Meshichist

12

 May 06, 2009 at 10:02 PM Proud Chabad Chossid Says:

I agree with the Rav 100% as do most Lubavitch Chassidim today.

The moshiachistim are a disgrace to the Rebbe and should not be tolerated at all.

The true Chabad Chassidim are the hard working Shluchim who are Moser Nefesh and give up on both their Gashmiyus and Ruchniyus in order to reach out and help another Jew. The vast majority of Shluchim do not say Yechi and would not in any way affiliate themselves with those that do.

It is trully a shame that such a small but vocal group have being so destructive and tarnished the good name of Lubavitch.

Wishing the Shluchim much success in continuing their holy work and that they succeed in their ultimate goal in bringing Moshiach (whoever he may be) now.

13

 May 06, 2009 at 09:57 PM Anonymous Says:

one of Rebbes in my yeshiva said if not apikorsim, but they are definitely Shotim & bunch of fools & ignorants who know nothing. very unfortunate...that lubavitchers with all their power can not quiet these people.

14

 May 06, 2009 at 10:24 PM Lakewood Masmid Says:

Rabbi Klein is one of the strongest Geonim and Poskim nowadays. He is also a very big Tzadik,he has lots of siyata dishmaya. Lubavitch at a whole are just a wonderfull asset to klal yisroel. Its a shame this small and vocal minority tarnishes the holy name of the Lubavitcher Rebbe zt"l. The Ungvarer Rebbe always stood up for what's correct in halacha.

15

 May 06, 2009 at 10:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Anyone who visited 770 since the Rebbe passed away will agree. They are real apikorsim. Standing there and saying they see the Rebbe is coming down, he just started to daven etc. Let's see the Rebbe should go Hagba. Those who call them Meshiguem, this is a 2009 political correct word for apikorsem.

16

 May 06, 2009 at 10:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
Anonymous Says:

he didn't say if you believe the Rebbe is Moshiach he said if you believe that the Rebbe is Alive Rabbi Klien is a Meshichist

In an effort to cover up his words this website as well as many others only wrote that "if you believe the Rebbe is alive then apikores" but were u to read the whole Teshuva he argues with the very premise that the Rebbe could be Moshiach and Moshiach could come min hamaysim

17

 May 06, 2009 at 10:34 PM House of Doors Says:

Is this a halacha p'sak or is it a hashkafah-based opinion?

18

 May 06, 2009 at 10:43 PM Daas Torah Says:

Reply to #8  
No Joke Says:

The Jews for J have long used the insistence of the Lubavitch Mesianics that either the Rebbe OBM did not really die or will be resurrected to be the Mashiach as a support of their contentions about J. They have stated openly words to the effect - what are the Jews always trying to dismiss their belief in J, his resurrection etc. when the ultra-Orthodox sect of Lubavitch are not saying much different.
The Rebbe OBM did incredible work and was mashpiah on the Jewish world. But he passed on, and we hope he will be a meilitz yosher for klal Yisrael like other gedolim and kedoshim from the past.
Even Rabbi Akiva thought that Bar Kochba was the mashiach until he died and he accepted Bar Kochba's death. How much more so, our generation, who are so much smaller in all aspects than Rabbi Akiva must accept that people pass on, no matter how great they may be. It is a pity that the Lubavitch messianics carry on so, because they tarnish the Rebbe's image and works

Did you ever read the Rambam? it says that Bar Kochvah was "Ne-he-rag" for you that would mean killed, the Rambam does not say "She-mays" or "Nis-ta-lek".

19

 May 06, 2009 at 10:47 PM Mendy Says:

All you bashers. you are wrong, but its not the time for this, its sfira anyhow. maybe you should all learn inyonei geulah and moshiach.

20

 May 06, 2009 at 10:42 PM gershon Says:

the reason why jc was not moshiach has nothing to do with the fact that he died R”l whoever thinks so is an apikores.

geuss what the concept of moshiach sounds R”L xristan,

its high time that people start learning about the subject with earnst not just bubeh facts.

my great uncle was the rosh yeshiva in chachmei lublin and he said that people have no clue about the subject and it wasnt thorogh ly dealt with as to keep away from the yushkeh beliefs, but i think that since today people yiden have access to the internet with all types of info about the goyishe beliefs we ought to get are facts streight and not say bogus dinim which have no place in torah,

as for the l”r zt”l maybe he was or not but if they want to believe so, zol zein, i just think that they are not doing any good pr for themselvs.

gershon from Montreal

22

 May 06, 2009 at 11:06 PM sholom ber Says:

as a lubavitcher, lets put things into order
1. dovid melech yisroel chai vekayom
2. yacov lo meas
3. rav says "rabinue hakodeash"
in the messichistim there are a few levels of crazy ones!
Apikorsim? please whats next? if you go to touro college you are a goy?
you wear a black hat you go straight to gan eden???
what do you do when a nonlubavitcher knocks on your door for money??? u scream yechi at him? please everyone drink some tea or coffee and let live!

23

 May 06, 2009 at 11:02 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

What else is new? This is something everyone has know for the last 15 years! If only those in Chabad (minority or majority) would break with the messianic element, painful as it may be, it would prevent the rest of the Orthodox world (both Charedi and MO) from writing off the entire Chabad movement as messianic.

it's not so easy to break away from the messianic sect. ppl. just tend to lump lubavitch/chabad as one group and don't differentiate. and it's difficult to kick out a whole group of ppl from 770. prob even illegal. ppl just have to realize that there is a tiny percentage of crazies in lubavitch who make all the noise. Like the mashal of the empty pushka that makes more noise than the full one.

24

 May 06, 2009 at 11:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
Daas Torah Says:

Did you ever read the Rambam? it says that Bar Kochvah was "Ne-he-rag" for you that would mean killed, the Rambam does not say "She-mays" or "Nis-ta-lek".

The Rambam also says that to assume that one is the moshiach he must gather all the exiled Jews, Fight the milchamos Hashem, and build the Beis Hamikdosh b'mkomo- The Rebbe z"l himself considered the Rambam's opinion binding in these matters.

P.S. If you tell me that he fulfilled ANY of these requirements, especially to say that 770, R"L is the "Beis Rabbeinu sheb'bavel" and that's what the Rambam meant, I think you may be potur min hamitzvos.

P.P.S. The Rambam says neherag because that was what happened with Bar Kokhba.

25

 May 06, 2009 at 10:59 PM To 12 Says:

At least feel ashamed. and please, dont call yourself chabad.

26

 May 06, 2009 at 11:25 PM the emperor has no clothes Says:

Finally, a leader. Rabbi Belsky also siad in Mishpacha and got vilified.

27

 May 06, 2009 at 11:25 PM ZR Says:

As a Lubavitcher, I say, most of Chabad are absolutely disgusted with the Meshichistim. They have done allot of damage to the name Lubavitch and the Rebbe. There are currently court cases costing in the millions trying to eject these people from 770.

But at the same time I must say that Chabad is criticized for many other things which have no basis in halacha (for eg. the bor al gabei bor mikvah issue -- which I must point out in the long debate a few days back, NOT ONE person was able to explain in halachic terms why bor al gabei bor might be problematic. NOT ONE person was able to bring a posek on the level and generation of R' Moshe Feinstein (who praised the chabad design) that says bor al gabei bor is posul. Ironically the Chazon Ish didn't like the Hashoko mikvah design - which most side by side mikvos use. So in fact the standard side by side Hashoko mikvah is more problematic than the bor al gabei bor.) Yet, in many circles, this myth perpetuates. For some reason, the very fact Chabad is associated with a certain type of Mikvah is enough to shun it. And even to label it posul.

This kneejerk resistance toward Chabad has caused many in Chabad to simply stop trying to accommodate the Litvish concerns.

Most of the M' camp excesses are a result of this attitude that the "’Litvish velts has always opposed Chabad in whatever we do; be it Teffilin, be it shabbos candles for girls, be it kiruv, be it lag b'omer parades. This is just the latest issue. Nothing we do is good enough for them. So it’s no point trying.”

Unfortunately, most in Chabad (and especially the M's) believe the Litvish velt has lost their credibility to criticize chabad.

This is a situation of the boy who cried wolf, in that now when the M's would do good to look at their actions, it gets shrugged off as "typical misnagdim - always against us for the last 200 years.

But let’s not forget that these people are a minority and must, Bezras Hashem, be stopped.


28

 May 06, 2009 at 11:22 PM mendy g. Says:

Reply to #12  
Proud Chabad Chossid Says:

I agree with the Rav 100% as do most Lubavitch Chassidim today.

The moshiachistim are a disgrace to the Rebbe and should not be tolerated at all.

The true Chabad Chassidim are the hard working Shluchim who are Moser Nefesh and give up on both their Gashmiyus and Ruchniyus in order to reach out and help another Jew. The vast majority of Shluchim do not say Yechi and would not in any way affiliate themselves with those that do.

It is trully a shame that such a small but vocal group have being so destructive and tarnished the good name of Lubavitch.

Wishing the Shluchim much success in continuing their holy work and that they succeed in their ultimate goal in bringing Moshiach (whoever he may be) now.

100 % corect as u can tell i went ohile torah , a lubavitch school with no english
90 % do not say the Rebba is alive , but the falshe velt wants to link us all 2gether
and get us looking like fools becuse the chabad work is very strong and sucssefull
" dont let those that knock us bring us down " moshiac now

29

 May 06, 2009 at 11:22 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

In an effort to cover up his words this website as well as many others only wrote that "if you believe the Rebbe is alive then apikores" but were u to read the whole Teshuva he argues with the very premise that the Rebbe could be Moshiach and Moshiach could come min hamaysim

If that is so, then he is calling the Lubavitcher Rebbe an Apikorus, because that was his clear position in Likutei Sichos Vol 2, in the Hosofos for Yud Gimul Shvat. (That the previous Rebbe is Moshiach, and his death didn't change that, because Techiyas Hameisim will happen for Tzaddikim first, so there could be Techiyas Hameisim of Tzaddikim, and then Mashiach could come from among them and bring about Techiyas Hameisim for the rest).

30

 May 06, 2009 at 11:21 PM Anonymous Says:

In B’Reishis (Parshas VaYechi) 49:33, Rashi states: "Yaakov Avinu lo meis." The Gemara claims that Yaakov Avinu did not die. Rashi says, "Chai l’olam" (He lives forever). Then he explains: "The Gemara asks a question: ‘But didn’t we see that he was eulogized? Didn’t we see that he was buried? Didn’t we see that he was embalmed?’ The Gemara answers, ‘Mikra hi – I just know what it says in the Torah.’" And he brings the verse from the Torah that teaches us that Yaakov Avinu lo meis. Rashi explains that it only appeared to them that he passed away. This is the principle found in reference to Yaakov; in reference to Moshe – "Moshe lo meis." We find this in reference to Rabbeinu HaKodesh, where the Gemara says that every Friday night he would come back home to his family. The Gilyon HaShas on the Gemara itself says that he would come home and make Kiddush for his family, which means he had the power to be motzi them (to cause them to fulfill their obligation). Whenever the Rebbe would speak about the Previous Rebbe, he strongly said that this principle applies not only to Yaakov, but to every Nasi HaDor. In fact, Nasi is the roshei teivos [acronym for] "netzutzo shel Yaakov Avinu" (a spark of Yaakov Avinu). Whenever he spoke about the Frierdike (Previous) Rebbe, the Rebbe never said nishmaso Eden (his neshama is in Gan Eden) or zecher tzaddik livracha (the memory of a tzaddik is for a bracha), because he said [the Rebbe Rayatz] is here – he’s alive.

31

 May 06, 2009 at 11:20 PM RESPECT Says:

Some people who are alive are dead (by not continuing torah and mitstvos), and some that are dead are more alive than those living.

"Yakov lo mais" Rashe: ...ma zaro bachaim af hu bachaim.

Anyone know "Dovid Melech Yisroel Chai Vicayom?" Is Dovid alive? A: Yes, as long as we are.

Horav Minashe Klien is arguing with a Ramban, if he means that Moshiach can't come from the dead. Also the talmud points out that the many amorim held that thier rebbe was moshiach.

Its OK to be jelous of someone regarding toraha and mitzvos if it makes you do more. Ze v'ze Devreay Elokim Chaim. Lets show more Ahavas Yisroel to stay "alive" and bring moshiach.

32

 May 06, 2009 at 10:57 PM WolfishMusings Says:

"In his 17th volume of Mishne Halachos, Klein names people who believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, is still alive, as "Apikoras." "

I'm confused. Why would believing that R. Schneerson (or any other dead person) is alive make one an apikorus. At worst, it just makes him wrong.

I know of people who believe that Elvis is still alive. They may be wrong, but I highly doubt they're apikorsim.

The Wolf

33

 May 06, 2009 at 10:55 PM Anonymous Says:

This Psak does not negate the belief that the Rebbe is Moshiach, it only states that the Rebbe is no longer alive!
As we know Moshiach CAN come from the dead, as is stated many times in Gemoro.

34

 May 06, 2009 at 10:54 PM Anonymous Says:

I suspect there are groups within Satmer and Belz who also believe the same thing about their rebbe but have the political sense not to say so publicly....if these misguided lubabvitch feel better thinking the rebbe will return and it energizes them to do even more mitzvot and give more tzadakah to hasten his return, who is Rav Klein to burst their bubble.

35

 May 06, 2009 at 11:48 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

In an effort to cover up his words this website as well as many others only wrote that "if you believe the Rebbe is alive then apikores" but were u to read the whole Teshuva he argues with the very premise that the Rebbe could be Moshiach and Moshiach could come min hamaysim

I haven't seen it inside so I can't say, but I do know one thing: a few years after the LR passed away, this same R Menashe Klein publicly proclaimed that the Meshichists are NOT apikorsim, and that it is PERMITTED to believe that the LR is still Moshiach. If the teshuva really says what you claim it does, how do you square that with his public statement to the contrary? Is he really "meshaneh halochos", as his enemies call him?

I also know that he's on very good terms with many Lubavitchers INCLUDING MESHICHISTS. I don't think that's compatible with your claim that he considers them apikorsim.

36

 May 06, 2009 at 11:52 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #26  
the emperor has no clothes Says:

Finally, a leader. Rabbi Belsky also siad in Mishpacha and got vilified.

What R Belsky said was very different. He attacked all chassidus going back to the Baal Shem Tov, and he was quite properly vilified for it. He should be ashamed of himself. The other two rabbonim interviewed in that same article also attacked the Messianics, and you see that nobody vilified them; there's a reason for that. They confined their remarks to the Messianics alone, and did not attack chassidic beliefs in general.

37

 May 07, 2009 at 04:14 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #11  
Anonymous Says:

he didn't say if you believe the Rebbe is Moshiach he said if you believe that the Rebbe is Alive Rabbi Klien is a Meshichist

No, he is not.

And in fact in this teshuva he rips into the Meshichistn too. He doesn't call them apikorsim, but he goes through their talking points and demolishes most of them (the only one he doesn't really touch is the Abarbanel), and spends the last two pages calling for Lubavitch to appoint a new rebbe. Which isn't going to happen.

38

 May 07, 2009 at 03:52 AM Anonymous Says:

To 34. I highly doubt that there are other chasidic sects that really hold of their rebbe to that extent. Vedal...

39

 May 07, 2009 at 03:18 AM A Lubavitcher Says:

"Ain lonu e'la divrey ben almram", we follow what the Rebbe told us. And to all those that criticize, all i can say is: Your starting with none other then the Rebbe himself!
Al tig'u bimishicho, u'vinvi'ay al to're'u!!!

40

 May 07, 2009 at 03:14 AM dovid Says:

to all of you who hate lubavitch you can take your learning your black hat and shove it and go to hell the basis of the torah is ahvas yisroel before anything if you dont have ahvas yisroelall your learning is worthless thats why the beis hamikdash got destroyed because of low lifes like you guys no difference chabad satmar etc you guys are disgrase to the world you learn shmiras haloshon and you slander people all you people are full of crap i as person who has no affiliation to lubavicth i can tell you ill my trips around the world they are amazing people start doing teshuva

41

 May 07, 2009 at 06:33 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #40  
dovid Says:

to all of you who hate lubavitch you can take your learning your black hat and shove it and go to hell the basis of the torah is ahvas yisroel before anything if you dont have ahvas yisroelall your learning is worthless thats why the beis hamikdash got destroyed because of low lifes like you guys no difference chabad satmar etc you guys are disgrase to the world you learn shmiras haloshon and you slander people all you people are full of crap i as person who has no affiliation to lubavicth i can tell you ill my trips around the world they are amazing people start doing teshuva

Who hates Lubavitch?

If we hated Lubavitch, we would ignore you. It is because we DO like you, that we bother to correct you, or at least tell you where WE believe you are making a mistake.

If my brother whom I love with all my heart, did things I did not like, I would call him on the carpet. He would not for a minute believe I hated him. He would listen.
He may not agree with me, but he would never call me a hater. He would never think I did not mean well. He would never call me ignorant for not agreeing with him.

He would not call me "Full of crap"

Lubavitch IS wonderful.
Lubavitch IS amazing.

but..... Lubavitch is NOT perfect.
Their biggest imperfections is their total unwillingness to have any respect for others' opinions.
Lubavitch need not FOLLOW others' opinions, but at leat don't trash the people who care enough to voice them.

When you need to worry, is when they "Give up" and stop correcting. That is when you know they have written off Chabad.

42

 May 07, 2009 at 06:31 AM Anonymous Says:

The Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT"L passed away, years ago. He is dead.

The meshichists are saying that he is alive. "Yechi Adonaynu Moraynu V'Rabaynu Melech HaMoshiach L'Olam Va'ed."

The meshichists and elohists (who believe that the L"R is "elokus b'lvush gashmi" (godliness in a physical body), and which the Yoshka believers also use against us) are spreading a false Hashkafa.

In order to be a properly-Torah-observant Jew, one must have a proper Hashkafa, as well as a knowledge of Halacha.

If anyone disagrees with them, Chabad said it's because they're Litvish. It has nothing to do with whether one is Litvish or whether one is from a Chassidic group other than Lubavitch. The L"R was not Moshiach. We have not been redeemed from Golus. Also, the L"R is dead. He is not alive.

43

 May 07, 2009 at 06:28 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #27  
ZR Says:

As a Lubavitcher, I say, most of Chabad are absolutely disgusted with the Meshichistim. They have done allot of damage to the name Lubavitch and the Rebbe. There are currently court cases costing in the millions trying to eject these people from 770.

But at the same time I must say that Chabad is criticized for many other things which have no basis in halacha (for eg. the bor al gabei bor mikvah issue -- which I must point out in the long debate a few days back, NOT ONE person was able to explain in halachic terms why bor al gabei bor might be problematic. NOT ONE person was able to bring a posek on the level and generation of R' Moshe Feinstein (who praised the chabad design) that says bor al gabei bor is posul. Ironically the Chazon Ish didn't like the Hashoko mikvah design - which most side by side mikvos use. So in fact the standard side by side Hashoko mikvah is more problematic than the bor al gabei bor.) Yet, in many circles, this myth perpetuates. For some reason, the very fact Chabad is associated with a certain type of Mikvah is enough to shun it. And even to label it posul.

This kneejerk resistance toward Chabad has caused many in Chabad to simply stop trying to accommodate the Litvish concerns.

Most of the M' camp excesses are a result of this attitude that the "’Litvish velts has always opposed Chabad in whatever we do; be it Teffilin, be it shabbos candles for girls, be it kiruv, be it lag b'omer parades. This is just the latest issue. Nothing we do is good enough for them. So it’s no point trying.”

Unfortunately, most in Chabad (and especially the M's) believe the Litvish velt has lost their credibility to criticize chabad.

This is a situation of the boy who cried wolf, in that now when the M's would do good to look at their actions, it gets shrugged off as "typical misnagdim - always against us for the last 200 years.

But let’s not forget that these people are a minority and must, Bezras Hashem, be stopped.


Stop blaming politics.

There are people, many people who think Chabad is wonderful, but are only against the meshichistim.

They think of the Mikva al gabai Mikvah a Chabad thing, not a meshichist thing.

They do not like the Mikvah al Gabai Mikvah on its own merits (and it does have merits, they just don't overcome its negatives according to them).

People in Chabad (and some others too) love to invalidate others' opinions, by claming, "It's Politics. They don't like our Mikva because they hate Chabad.'

That itself is a divisive, wrong remark.

The next technique they use is to call anyone who disagrees with anything Chabad, and "Am Haaretz." It seems only those whose opinions match Chabad can learn, all others are ignorant.

Some of the things Chabad does are wonderful.

Sure, there are those who disagree with some things. And, YES, Chabad can point to successes, which they claim jusitify the actions. Others disagree.

Chabad wants them to respect Chabad.
But, when was the last time Chabad respected other people's opinions, without calling everyone an Am Haaretz?

44

 May 07, 2009 at 06:20 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #40  
dovid Says:

to all of you who hate lubavitch you can take your learning your black hat and shove it and go to hell the basis of the torah is ahvas yisroel before anything if you dont have ahvas yisroelall your learning is worthless thats why the beis hamikdash got destroyed because of low lifes like you guys no difference chabad satmar etc you guys are disgrase to the world you learn shmiras haloshon and you slander people all you people are full of crap i as person who has no affiliation to lubavicth i can tell you ill my trips around the world they are amazing people start doing teshuva

You may be correct. But believing in a "second coming" is a very non-Jewish theology. At the time of the second churban there were many sects among the Judeans. One of those sects believed in resurrection. That sect did wonderful outreach and had wonderful PR. An entire empire took on that belief and in turn cost the lives of millions of Jews.

45

 May 07, 2009 at 06:17 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #34  
Anonymous Says:

I suspect there are groups within Satmer and Belz who also believe the same thing about their rebbe but have the political sense not to say so publicly....if these misguided lubabvitch feel better thinking the rebbe will return and it energizes them to do even more mitzvot and give more tzadakah to hasten his return, who is Rav Klein to burst their bubble.

I doubt you are correct. But even if you are at least they keep it to themselves. The danger with these crazies is that this twisted belief gets spread by their outreach work.

46

 May 07, 2009 at 06:16 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #35  
Milhouse Says:

I haven't seen it inside so I can't say, but I do know one thing: a few years after the LR passed away, this same R Menashe Klein publicly proclaimed that the Meshichists are NOT apikorsim, and that it is PERMITTED to believe that the LR is still Moshiach. If the teshuva really says what you claim it does, how do you square that with his public statement to the contrary? Is he really "meshaneh halochos", as his enemies call him?

I also know that he's on very good terms with many Lubavitchers INCLUDING MESHICHISTS. I don't think that's compatible with your claim that he considers them apikorsim.

I've now read the whole teshuva. He does attack the idea that the LR will be Moshiach, but he doesn't call it apikorsus. The teshuvah is written in response to one of the Messianic pamphlets, and addresses the usual talking points one by one.

For most of them he gives the standard refutations, but when he comes to the Abarbanel he can't come up with a real refutation, and resorts to playing semantics. All he says about it is that OK, the Rebbe could come back to life and THEN be Moshiach, but he can't be Moshiach now, because he hasn't come back to life yet. That's a distinction without a difference.

In any case, there's no question that he does disapprove of the Messianics, he calls for the Yechi...Melech Hamoshiach to stop, and he spends two pages calling on Lubavitchers to appoint a new rebbe, even if he can't be more than a shadow of the last one.

47

 May 07, 2009 at 06:18 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #38  
Anonymous Says:

To 34. I highly doubt that there are other chasidic sects that really hold of their rebbe to that extent. Vedal...

Real chassidim do. Certainly the early chassidim did. Those who don't demonstrate that either they are not real chasidim, or they don't have a real rebbe nowadays. Ovad chosid min ho'oretz.

48

 May 07, 2009 at 06:15 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

Are they really apikorsim? Read the following:

Rav states:
"If Moshiach will come from the living, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh (i.e.Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi), if he comes from the dead, it will be Daniel (the Prophet)..."

Sanhedrin 98:B

Rashi restates Rav's position as follows:
"This means, that if Moshiach were to come from those who are living now, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh…but if (Moshiach) is to come from those who have died already, it will be 'Daniel Ish Chamudos'..."

Rashi-"Ee Min Chaya, Hu Kegon-Rabainu HaKadosh" 98:B

That was not psak din. That Agadita was hyperbole by Rav in his praise of the Giants Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, and Daniel Ishe Chamudos.

And... again, we we all know, we do NOT paskin from Gemora.

We paskin from the pikai dinim of the gedolim who lead us.

ALL have unanimously ruled that the Lubavitcher Rebbe, no matter how big a tzadik he may have been, is not Moshiach.

And, the "Yellow Flaggers" ARE causing the rest of Klall Yisroel to make fun of Chabad, and push us even further away than we are pulling ourselves.

There is a major university today in the US which is now teaching in its comparative religion course, that Chabad is a breakaway religion from Judaism, which is the largest breakaway religion from Judaism since Paul's followers in Rome built the XXXXtian Church.

Is this what The Rebbe intended? Heck NO.

Let's all follow this tzadik's words. Listen to Rabbi Menashe Klein. He is right.

49

 May 07, 2009 at 06:00 AM Anonymous Says:

It is a bout time that a GAdol has spoken out against these Menim. These crazies are disgracing the wonderful work of Chabad and making it difficult for the Mishluchim who are doing the real work of the Rebbe Z"TL.

50

 May 07, 2009 at 05:52 AM think logically Says:

Kudos to Rabbi Klein for saying the obvious, which is unfortunately not obvious today, with our generation's utter confusion in so many areas of hashkafa.

The Meshichists think the same as the rest of the Lubavitchers; the only difference is that they say what they think rather than keep quiet about it as the others do, because of fear of condemnation and contempt by other frum. That's also why the Meshichists are tolerated in the movement, and in Israel, Kfar Chabad and other important positions in Chabad are headed by Meshichists. If the rest of the movement looked at them as an aberration, they would have had no trouble kicking them out of their group, as they did to other groups in their history.

Let's not forget some basic facts: The previous rebbe fostered the Messianic atmosphere around him throughout his entire career as rebbe, beginning with the very first maamor he gave when he turned rebbe in 1951. He had numerous opportunities to stop the messianic craze around him over 40 years, but to the contrary, he encouraged it. He was the one who told the chassidim to demand the revelation of Moshiach, which spurred the crazy petitions and demonstrations in the January 1993. The rebbe was too clever to openly call himself Moshiach, but he primed his chassidim so they would push his candidacy for Moshiach for him. To all those who deny it, answer this: who else arrogated for himself the appellation "Nasi Hador"? Who else talked constantly in terms of the upcoming Geula and his chassidus' books constantly spoke about it? And why didn't any other group in Klal Yisroel announce that their rebbe is the Moshiach as Lubavitch did, despite the chassidim feeling no less reverence for their rebbes? Anyone with half a brain cannot deny that the rebbe himself encouraged the craze.

Just by way of illustration, in 1983, long before the division of the chassidim into Meshichistim and more sane chassidim, Lubavitch chassidim published (the Hebrew-language) "The Anthology of Torah Novellae concerning the Meshiach King" to determine how the Meshiach King will be revealed, and particularly who the Meshiach king is.. The editor writes in the introduction that although in the past they wrote little about this topic, they feel there is greater need for it now "since we're already on the verge of the Redemption."

In the introduction: "This anthology was published on the occasion of the 80th birthday of the rebbe -- the Meshiach king. May Hashem make this year, 1983, the revelation of the Meshiach, and may the one who stands in the breach break the walls of the Exile with the onset of the true, complete Redemption - NOW!"

The first essay: "... throughout the generations, there was no righteous or great man who determined when Moshiach would come. Even those who calculated the final times only spoke about times that were auspicious for Meshiach's revelation. But in our generation, we have heard clear and absolute things concerning the time of redemption and the coming of the Meshiach.

"The period began with the announcement of the rebbe shlita as soon as he accepted the leadership on 10 Shvat 5711 (January 17, 1951), that our generation was the seventh generation of Chabad rebbes, and it is the generation of Redemption. This determination was not conditional, and it was clearly established that Meshiach will come in this generation... as was widely explained in [the rebbe's] many discourses said over the years."

\"The most recent period began -- according to the author -- when the rebbe announced in 1980 'Meshiach Now!' He explains, 'The concept of "now" in daily life is different from the concept in relation to the waiting of generations. Nevertheless, "now" in relation to the many generations means a maximum of 2-3 years, since "now" must occur in our generation, the generation of redemption....'

The Lubavitchers are to be pitied for the dilemma they are in. If they deny the rebbe is Moshiach, then they are admitting that the Moshiach status which he pushed for decades was a lie and he was a charlatan. But if they claim he is Moshiach, then they know they run afoul of Judaism -- despite all their twisting and turning to find an acceptable theological argument that will allow him to be Moshiach.

My 11 year old daughter was sitting on the steps with some neighborhood friends, including the 9-year old daughter of a local Lubavitcher rabbi. She asked the daughter if they believe the rebbe is Moshiach. The daughter looked confused, then she said that they believe he's Moshiach but her parents told her not to say it. That's the reality for the entire Lubavtich movement.

Rabbi Klein unfairly blames the loyal chassidim for doing what their rebbe had encouraged them to do. If there is anyone to blame for this state of affairs, it is the rebbe.




51

 May 07, 2009 at 05:46 AM Its not purim Says:

Reply to #40  
dovid Says:

to all of you who hate lubavitch you can take your learning your black hat and shove it and go to hell the basis of the torah is ahvas yisroel before anything if you dont have ahvas yisroelall your learning is worthless thats why the beis hamikdash got destroyed because of low lifes like you guys no difference chabad satmar etc you guys are disgrase to the world you learn shmiras haloshon and you slander people all you people are full of crap i as person who has no affiliation to lubavicth i can tell you ill my trips around the world they are amazing people start doing teshuva

Dovid you are a clown if you preach AHAVAS YISROEL and then talk about jews worse than the afro americans talk to each other.

You're a real joke

52

 May 07, 2009 at 01:19 AM Elchonon Says:

I dont want to mix in, but as a resident of chevron we know that the avot are sleeping and did not die.. "oreh yeshanei chevron" we say. Awake sleepers of chevron.

53

 May 07, 2009 at 12:34 AM Chaim B. Says:

Just like evry religion there r some extremists. But never confuse Chabad with those kuku's!
Chabad was and is one of the prominent chasidush which are active in all maters of jiddishkeit.
Thoso's kuku's r a discrase to Lubavitch and to the rebbe OBM"

54

 May 07, 2009 at 12:17 AM Observer Says:

Although on the outside many Lubavitcher's want us to believe they are of the "normal" ones. The fact remains, the Meshichistim are growing and have the main voice in Lubavitch to-date. One only has to look at the Birchas Hachamuh led by Rabbi Butman (Meshichistim General) just this year and other on-goings in 770 headquarters to see this plainly and daily as living proof. Where is the protests by "normal" Lubavitchers? The answer.. So many of the silent "normal" ones live with this on-goings fore deep in their hearts and minds they do ponder.. perhaps the Meshichistim are right. After all they too wish he would be!

55

 May 07, 2009 at 12:06 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #33  
Anonymous Says:

This Psak does not negate the belief that the Rebbe is Moshiach, it only states that the Rebbe is no longer alive!
As we know Moshiach CAN come from the dead, as is stated many times in Gemoro.

Could you cite these "many times" in the Gemoro. I don't know of any.

56

 May 07, 2009 at 12:05 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #34  
Anonymous Says:

I suspect there are groups within Satmer and Belz who also believe the same thing about their rebbe but have the political sense not to say so publicly....if these misguided lubabvitch feel better thinking the rebbe will return and it energizes them to do even more mitzvot and give more tzadakah to hasten his return, who is Rav Klein to burst their bubble.

I follow your reasoning. So, if you believe that J is moshiach, it's OK if it helps you do more mitzvos. Or, if you believe that your neighbor is Moshiach, that's OK too as long as it helps you do Mitzvos. How about if you believe in Avodah Zora, but it helps you do Mitzvos, is that OK too?
The fact that a belief, which is not correct, or as Rav Klein says, Apikorses, makes you do more Mitzvos does not excuse such a belief.

57

 May 07, 2009 at 06:46 AM Chossid Says:

Reply to #34  
Anonymous Says:

I suspect there are groups within Satmer and Belz who also believe the same thing about their rebbe but have the political sense not to say so publicly....if these misguided lubabvitch feel better thinking the rebbe will return and it energizes them to do even more mitzvot and give more tzadakah to hasten his return, who is Rav Klein to burst their bubble.

WRONG... Dead wrong.

I am a Satmar Chossid, a chossid of the late Satmar Rov, R. Yoilish, ZY'U.

Sure, there were people who loved and were in so much awe of our Rebbe that we 'wondered' .... 'can he be' ....

But, when he was nistalek, and left his earthly body behind, we buried those thoughts on the day of his kevura!
Also, we and the other Chassidim of other great Rebbes, Zichronon L'Vrucha, may have "wondered' if our/their Rebbe may be Moshiach Tzidkeini, but we all believed that it would be DISRESPECTFUL to our Rebbes to say to out loud while he is alive, and DAMAGING to his neshama to say so after his petira.

My father, ZT"L asked my brother and me to not make any hepedim for him, nor allow anyone to. WHY? He said that when a person exaggerates, and makes statements about a person which are not true, it does the opposite of what we want. Instead of giving the neshama an "aliya" it does the opposite, C'V.

So, we certainly would not make a Moshiach out of anyone whose neshama was nistalek.... if we cared about him. How dare we HURT his neshama by saying lies, or making false claims.

When the real Moshiach is announced, we will all know. In the meanwhile, I knew the Lubavitcher Rebbe, ZT"L, and loved him (even though he was not my Rebbe), and I cry inside every time I hear people call him Moshiach. I believe it hurts his precious neshama.

Guys, we do not hate Chabad. We have not hated Chabad. Those of us who sometimes disagree with some Chabad thing do not hate Chabad.

58

 May 07, 2009 at 12:47 AM cranberry stuffer Says:

Reply to #29  
Anonymous Says:

If that is so, then he is calling the Lubavitcher Rebbe an Apikorus, because that was his clear position in Likutei Sichos Vol 2, in the Hosofos for Yud Gimul Shvat. (That the previous Rebbe is Moshiach, and his death didn't change that, because Techiyas Hameisim will happen for Tzaddikim first, so there could be Techiyas Hameisim of Tzaddikim, and then Mashiach could come from among them and bring about Techiyas Hameisim for the rest).

If the Rebbe said the previous rebbe is moshiach, how could he be moshiach???? Duhh

59

 May 07, 2009 at 12:02 AM esther Says:

as the freidiker [previous]lubavitcher rebbe said ''nu,at least their talking about mosiach''

60

 May 06, 2009 at 11:49 PM Anonymous Says:

The mechichist will be the next break off of judiasm.

61

 May 06, 2009 at 11:42 PM Mendy Says:


ז' תמוז תשנ"ו:

להלן מענה לשאלות הרבות אודות עמדתי בהנוגע לליובאוויטש ואמונתם המשיחית.

לפני ג' תמוז כללתי את עצמי בין אלה שהאמינו כי הרבי היה ראוי להיות המשיח. אני מאמין באופן מוחלט, כי לו היינו - במיוחד הקהיל האורטודוקסית - מאוחדים, היינו זוכים לגאולה השלימה.

בקשר לאמונה של רבים מחסידי חב”ד (כולל רבנים מובהקים וראשי ישיבות) - אמונה המיוסדת על הצהרות דומות של הרבי בעצמו, בקשר לקודמו בתפקיד הרבי הקודם, כולל רבנים חשובים וראשי ישיבות, שהרבי יכול עדיין להיות משיח - לאור הגמרא בסנהדרין, הזוהר, האברבנאל, כתבי האריז”ל, השדי חמד ועוד מקורות - אני לא יכול לומר שהאמונה הזאת היא דבר שמחוץ לזרם האורתודוכסי."

"כל ניסיון ציני להשתמש בחילוקי דיעות איך לפרש בנושא זה, ולהשתמש בזה כדי להזיק לתנועת חב”ד שהייתה ועדיין ממשיכה להיות התנועה שעומדת בראש הלוחמים במיסיון ובהתבוללות, רק יכול להביא יותר לבעיות בקהילה היהודית, ובמיוחד בקהילה התורנית.

על המחנה התורני לגייס את כל כוחותיו להתאחד, ברוח האמיתית של אהבת ישראל ולהילחם באויב האמיתי של ישראל. אני מוחה וקורא להפסיק כל תעמולה להכפיש את תנועת ליובאוויטש או כל זרם לגיטימי אחר בתוך יהדתו התורה

עד כאן ממכתבו של הרב סולובייצ'יק.

הרב העשל גרינברג שהיה מאחורי הקלעים מספר: הייתי רוצה לספר את הרקע למכתב, כיוון שכאשר אני מזכיר את העובדה שהרב סולובייצ’יק חתם על המכתב, אנשים אומרים לי שהם יודעים ממקורות מוסמכים שזה לא נכון, שהוא אף פעם לא כתב את זה, וזה זיוף, והם יודעים ממקורות מוסמכים שהוא היה תחת לחץ לכתוב את זה, ואחרי זה אני שומע עוד שאנשים אומרים שהם יודעים ממקורות מוסמכים שאחרי זה הוא חזר בו וביטל את המכתב. אם הוא לא כתב את זה -איך הוא ביטל את זה?...

ובכן, אלו הן העובדות: אני הייתי בחדרו של הרב סולובייצ’יק יחד עם עוד שני רבנים שהיו עדים איך שהרב חותם על המכתב.

המכתב עצמו לא נכתב אישית על ידי הרב סולובייצ’יק. הוא לא לקח עט וכתב את זה, כיוון שהוא היה משותק ומאוד היה קשה בשבילו לשבת ולכתוב. המכתב הזה הכיל תוכן מהרעיונות שהרב סולובייצ’יק אמר בעל פה לרב אלי טורין משיקגו, ואני עזרתי לנסח את המכתב שיכיל את כל הרעיונות של הרב סולובייציק בנושא הזה.

הבאנו את המכתב לרב סולובייציק. הרב סולובייציק היה גדול בתורה. אף אחד לא יכול לדמיין לעצמו שאדם בדמותו היה נכנע לכתוב בשמו, דבר שהוא כפירה. אם מישהו מאמין לזה, הוא יכול להאמין כל דבר. זה עלבון גדול לאדם בדמותו של הרב סולובייציק זצ”ל אם יאמינו עליו כזה דבר.

היה לנו דו-שיח מאוד מהנה. דיברנו אודות הנושא ברוח טובה, ואמרנו לרב סולובייציק שזה תוכן המכתב שהיינו מבקשים לפרסם כדי להפסיק את ההתקפות הבזויות הללו על חב”ד. האם הרב מוכן לחתום על זה. הרב סולובייציק עבר על המכתב מאוד בזהירות. קרא פעם ועוד פעם, ואחר כך אמר “אני אחתום על זה”, והוא אכן חתם על זה.

המכתב פורסם בעיתון ג’ואיש פרעס, ולפני שהם פירסמו את זה, המערכת בעצמה צילצלה לרב סולובייציק לוודא שזאת אכן חתימתו על המכתב. הוא אישר את זה, ורק אז המערכת פירסמה את המכתב.

מה שמדברים על ההבהרה שהוא פירסם שבוע אחר כך, שמשתמע ממנה כאילו הוא חזר בדבריו, זה היה כיוון שמישהו פירש את המכתב שלא לנכון. הרב סולובייציק לא חתם שהוא אומר שהרבי הוא משיח, אלא רק שזה דבר לגיטימי, שיש מקורות לגיטימיים לאמונה של אלו שמאמינים, ואף אחד לא יכול לבקר את זה או לגנות את זה. זה תוכן מכתבו השני של הרב סולובייצ’יק, שפורסם בגואיש פרעס שבוע אחר כך.

אם האמת כדברי האומרים שהאמונה הזאת היא כפירה -איך הרב סולובייצ’יק יכול לומר שאסור לגנות את זה?אלה שהכירו את הרב אהרן סולובייצ’יק, ואני הכרתי אותו היטב, יודעים שמדובר באדם שלא חת לפרסם את דעתו ברבים, גם כאשר היא לא נעמה לחוגים מסויימים.

היו לי הרבה הזדמנויות לדבר איתו ולשמוע את השקפותיו החזקות בעניני יהדות. הוא היה תקיף מאוד נגד הממשל הישראלי על כך שהם החזירו שטחים תמורת הסכמי השלום המזוייפים. לאידך, הוא תמך תמיכה מלאה בעניינים שלדעתו היו חשובים, למרות שלדעת רבים ביהדות ארצות הברית הם לא היו פופולריים.

ובנושא הזה לא שמענו שום ביקורת ממנו. הדבר היחיד ששמענו ממנו, שזאת אמונה לגיטימית המיוסדת על מקורות היהדות, ואין בעייה להאמין היום שהרבי הוא מלך המשיח. לכן, כל מי שממשיך ללחום, לבקר ולגנות את חסידי חב”ד על אמונתם זו, הוא מכריז מלחמה גם נגד גדול בתורה בדמותו של הרב סולובייצ’יק.

62

 May 06, 2009 at 11:41 PM Mendy Says:

מכתבו של הגאון האדיר הרב פנחס הירשפרונג

י”ג אייר, כ”ח למטמוני”ם תשנ”ז לפ”ק

הנני להגיד דעתי ברורה בזה (בלי להאריך בכל השקו”ט, שכבר שמעתי הענין לפרטיו, ואכ”מ להאריך):

כל הדו”ד אודות השירה וההדפסה והענין ד”יחי אדמו”ר מלך המשיח לע”ו” וכל הכרוך בזה - אין בזה שום צל של שאלה בהלכה, ויש לזה מקורות בש”ס מפורש, בזהר, ומגדולי המקובלים עליהם אנו (כלל ישראל) סומכים גם להלכה למעשה. (לבד מזה שגם הרבי מליובאוויטש רב גוברי’ וכו’ - בבחי’ רב תנא הוא, ואם השתמש באותיות אלו בנוגע לחמיו זצ”ל, ומאות פעמים, זה לעצמו כבר יכול להיות מקור ובר סמכא).

ועד”ז בנוגע לדרכי ההשפעה על אחב”י וכו’, הרי הרבי מליובאוויטש, וחסידי חב”ד עצמם כבר אתמחי גברא ואתמחי קמיע, ומי יודע יותר מהם איך הוא הגישה הנכונה לקרב אחב”י, ובאופן שרק זאת ולא אחרת וכו’.

ורק נהרא נהרא ופשטי’.

עפ”י הנ”ל נראה שכל המח’ באה רק בעצת היצר ר”ל, הרוצה דוקא לעשות קטיגוריא בין ת”ח. כנראה שלא מרגישים איזה צרה הנהגה כזאת תביא ר”ל בכרם ישראל, והבערה ללאו יצאת, וכי תצא אש גו’ שלם ישלם המבעיר את הבערה!

מה אתם חושבים שליובאוויטש ישתקו, ובפרט בענין הנוגע לדררא דממונא, והרי ת”ח ממונם חביב עליהם יותר מגופם כו’, איזה חילול השם תגרום מחלוקת כזו. ואלו החושבים כולו רק לש”ש - מצד מה יאמרו הבריות - יחשבו בעיון א) איזה השפעה תעשה מחלוקת זו על אחב”י שעדיין לא התקרבו לתומ”צ. ב) ועוד יותר, כאשר יתגלה הכל ברבים - דעת מי יתקבל יותר - דעת ליובאוויטש, שעוסקים בכל קצוי תבל וארה”ב בכלל, בידידות רבה, והולכת וכובשת לבבות אחב”י, או דברי איזה ראש ישיבה (ואפי’ כמה מהם). והרי כאשר ידפיסו - ליובאוויטש - השורש על הנהגותיהם, איך שהיא מיוסדת על חז”ל בנגלה ובנסתר (ועל דברי הרבי עצמו), מה יועיל מה שאחד יגיד “דעת תורה” שלו עצמו.

וברכנו אבינו כאשר כולנו כאחד דווקא. וה’ יברך את עמו בשלום.

63

 May 06, 2009 at 11:37 PM misnagid Says:

to number 27: WELL SAID! we all need to start being m'kabel haemes mimi she'omro, no matter if you daven ashkenaz, sefard or ari.

64

 May 07, 2009 at 07:01 AM to no. 40 Says:

Reply to #40  
dovid Says:

to all of you who hate lubavitch you can take your learning your black hat and shove it and go to hell the basis of the torah is ahvas yisroel before anything if you dont have ahvas yisroelall your learning is worthless thats why the beis hamikdash got destroyed because of low lifes like you guys no difference chabad satmar etc you guys are disgrase to the world you learn shmiras haloshon and you slander people all you people are full of crap i as person who has no affiliation to lubavicth i can tell you ill my trips around the world they are amazing people start doing teshuva

Wow, was that a display of ahavat Yisroel? Look in a mirror.

65

 May 07, 2009 at 07:18 AM big picture Says:

you are all missing the bigger picture. this is a power struggle for control of chabads vast network and b-h the 'mishichistim' are losing. this has nothing to do with moshiach. I am amazed that people both in & out haven't figured this out yet.

66

 May 07, 2009 at 07:08 AM Emes Says:

Lets stop worrying who is Moshiach.- Hashem will send the real Moshiach that Hashem will choose (no-one else) as soon as we are worthy of it.

All these signs propoganda flags badges etc. is an American invention that suits coca cola better than the holy inyan of MOSHIACH!

67

 May 07, 2009 at 07:06 AM to no. 40 Says:

Reply to #40  
dovid Says:

to all of you who hate lubavitch you can take your learning your black hat and shove it and go to hell the basis of the torah is ahvas yisroel before anything if you dont have ahvas yisroelall your learning is worthless thats why the beis hamikdash got destroyed because of low lifes like you guys no difference chabad satmar etc you guys are disgrase to the world you learn shmiras haloshon and you slander people all you people are full of crap i as person who has no affiliation to lubavicth i can tell you ill my trips around the world they are amazing people start doing teshuva

Wow, was that a display of ahavat Yisroel? Look in a mirror.

68

 May 07, 2009 at 07:46 AM which Rav Says:

Reply to #61  
Mendy Says:


ז' תמוז תשנ"ו:

להלן מענה לשאלות הרבות אודות עמדתי בהנוגע לליובאוויטש ואמונתם המשיחית.

לפני ג' תמוז כללתי את עצמי בין אלה שהאמינו כי הרבי היה ראוי להיות המשיח. אני מאמין באופן מוחלט, כי לו היינו - במיוחד הקהיל האורטודוקסית - מאוחדים, היינו זוכים לגאולה השלימה.

בקשר לאמונה של רבים מחסידי חב”ד (כולל רבנים מובהקים וראשי ישיבות) - אמונה המיוסדת על הצהרות דומות של הרבי בעצמו, בקשר לקודמו בתפקיד הרבי הקודם, כולל רבנים חשובים וראשי ישיבות, שהרבי יכול עדיין להיות משיח - לאור הגמרא בסנהדרין, הזוהר, האברבנאל, כתבי האריז”ל, השדי חמד ועוד מקורות - אני לא יכול לומר שהאמונה הזאת היא דבר שמחוץ לזרם האורתודוכסי."

"כל ניסיון ציני להשתמש בחילוקי דיעות איך לפרש בנושא זה, ולהשתמש בזה כדי להזיק לתנועת חב”ד שהייתה ועדיין ממשיכה להיות התנועה שעומדת בראש הלוחמים במיסיון ובהתבוללות, רק יכול להביא יותר לבעיות בקהילה היהודית, ובמיוחד בקהילה התורנית.

על המחנה התורני לגייס את כל כוחותיו להתאחד, ברוח האמיתית של אהבת ישראל ולהילחם באויב האמיתי של ישראל. אני מוחה וקורא להפסיק כל תעמולה להכפיש את תנועת ליובאוויטש או כל זרם לגיטימי אחר בתוך יהדתו התורה

עד כאן ממכתבו של הרב סולובייצ'יק.

הרב העשל גרינברג שהיה מאחורי הקלעים מספר: הייתי רוצה לספר את הרקע למכתב, כיוון שכאשר אני מזכיר את העובדה שהרב סולובייצ’יק חתם על המכתב, אנשים אומרים לי שהם יודעים ממקורות מוסמכים שזה לא נכון, שהוא אף פעם לא כתב את זה, וזה זיוף, והם יודעים ממקורות מוסמכים שהוא היה תחת לחץ לכתוב את זה, ואחרי זה אני שומע עוד שאנשים אומרים שהם יודעים ממקורות מוסמכים שאחרי זה הוא חזר בו וביטל את המכתב. אם הוא לא כתב את זה -איך הוא ביטל את זה?...

ובכן, אלו הן העובדות: אני הייתי בחדרו של הרב סולובייצ’יק יחד עם עוד שני רבנים שהיו עדים איך שהרב חותם על המכתב.

המכתב עצמו לא נכתב אישית על ידי הרב סולובייצ’יק. הוא לא לקח עט וכתב את זה, כיוון שהוא היה משותק ומאוד היה קשה בשבילו לשבת ולכתוב. המכתב הזה הכיל תוכן מהרעיונות שהרב סולובייצ’יק אמר בעל פה לרב אלי טורין משיקגו, ואני עזרתי לנסח את המכתב שיכיל את כל הרעיונות של הרב סולובייציק בנושא הזה.

הבאנו את המכתב לרב סולובייציק. הרב סולובייציק היה גדול בתורה. אף אחד לא יכול לדמיין לעצמו שאדם בדמותו היה נכנע לכתוב בשמו, דבר שהוא כפירה. אם מישהו מאמין לזה, הוא יכול להאמין כל דבר. זה עלבון גדול לאדם בדמותו של הרב סולובייציק זצ”ל אם יאמינו עליו כזה דבר.

היה לנו דו-שיח מאוד מהנה. דיברנו אודות הנושא ברוח טובה, ואמרנו לרב סולובייציק שזה תוכן המכתב שהיינו מבקשים לפרסם כדי להפסיק את ההתקפות הבזויות הללו על חב”ד. האם הרב מוכן לחתום על זה. הרב סולובייציק עבר על המכתב מאוד בזהירות. קרא פעם ועוד פעם, ואחר כך אמר “אני אחתום על זה”, והוא אכן חתם על זה.

המכתב פורסם בעיתון ג’ואיש פרעס, ולפני שהם פירסמו את זה, המערכת בעצמה צילצלה לרב סולובייציק לוודא שזאת אכן חתימתו על המכתב. הוא אישר את זה, ורק אז המערכת פירסמה את המכתב.

מה שמדברים על ההבהרה שהוא פירסם שבוע אחר כך, שמשתמע ממנה כאילו הוא חזר בדבריו, זה היה כיוון שמישהו פירש את המכתב שלא לנכון. הרב סולובייציק לא חתם שהוא אומר שהרבי הוא משיח, אלא רק שזה דבר לגיטימי, שיש מקורות לגיטימיים לאמונה של אלו שמאמינים, ואף אחד לא יכול לבקר את זה או לגנות את זה. זה תוכן מכתבו השני של הרב סולובייצ’יק, שפורסם בגואיש פרעס שבוע אחר כך.

אם האמת כדברי האומרים שהאמונה הזאת היא כפירה -איך הרב סולובייצ’יק יכול לומר שאסור לגנות את זה?אלה שהכירו את הרב אהרן סולובייצ’יק, ואני הכרתי אותו היטב, יודעים שמדובר באדם שלא חת לפרסם את דעתו ברבים, גם כאשר היא לא נעמה לחוגים מסויימים.

היו לי הרבה הזדמנויות לדבר איתו ולשמוע את השקפותיו החזקות בעניני יהדות. הוא היה תקיף מאוד נגד הממשל הישראלי על כך שהם החזירו שטחים תמורת הסכמי השלום המזוייפים. לאידך, הוא תמך תמיכה מלאה בעניינים שלדעתו היו חשובים, למרות שלדעת רבים ביהדות ארצות הברית הם לא היו פופולריים.

ובנושא הזה לא שמענו שום ביקורת ממנו. הדבר היחיד ששמענו ממנו, שזאת אמונה לגיטימית המיוסדת על מקורות היהדות, ואין בעייה להאמין היום שהרבי הוא מלך המשיח. לכן, כל מי שממשיך ללחום, לבקר ולגנות את חסידי חב”ד על אמונתם זו, הוא מכריז מלחמה גם נגד גדול בתורה בדמותו של הרב סולובייצ’יק.

Which Rav Soloveitchik is this claimed to be and where is this letter from?

69

 May 07, 2009 at 07:55 AM Brisker Rov Says:

Reply to #50  
think logically Says:

Kudos to Rabbi Klein for saying the obvious, which is unfortunately not obvious today, with our generation's utter confusion in so many areas of hashkafa.

The Meshichists think the same as the rest of the Lubavitchers; the only difference is that they say what they think rather than keep quiet about it as the others do, because of fear of condemnation and contempt by other frum. That's also why the Meshichists are tolerated in the movement, and in Israel, Kfar Chabad and other important positions in Chabad are headed by Meshichists. If the rest of the movement looked at them as an aberration, they would have had no trouble kicking them out of their group, as they did to other groups in their history.

Let's not forget some basic facts: The previous rebbe fostered the Messianic atmosphere around him throughout his entire career as rebbe, beginning with the very first maamor he gave when he turned rebbe in 1951. He had numerous opportunities to stop the messianic craze around him over 40 years, but to the contrary, he encouraged it. He was the one who told the chassidim to demand the revelation of Moshiach, which spurred the crazy petitions and demonstrations in the January 1993. The rebbe was too clever to openly call himself Moshiach, but he primed his chassidim so they would push his candidacy for Moshiach for him. To all those who deny it, answer this: who else arrogated for himself the appellation "Nasi Hador"? Who else talked constantly in terms of the upcoming Geula and his chassidus' books constantly spoke about it? And why didn't any other group in Klal Yisroel announce that their rebbe is the Moshiach as Lubavitch did, despite the chassidim feeling no less reverence for their rebbes? Anyone with half a brain cannot deny that the rebbe himself encouraged the craze.

Just by way of illustration, in 1983, long before the division of the chassidim into Meshichistim and more sane chassidim, Lubavitch chassidim published (the Hebrew-language) "The Anthology of Torah Novellae concerning the Meshiach King" to determine how the Meshiach King will be revealed, and particularly who the Meshiach king is.. The editor writes in the introduction that although in the past they wrote little about this topic, they feel there is greater need for it now "since we're already on the verge of the Redemption."

In the introduction: "This anthology was published on the occasion of the 80th birthday of the rebbe -- the Meshiach king. May Hashem make this year, 1983, the revelation of the Meshiach, and may the one who stands in the breach break the walls of the Exile with the onset of the true, complete Redemption - NOW!"

The first essay: "... throughout the generations, there was no righteous or great man who determined when Moshiach would come. Even those who calculated the final times only spoke about times that were auspicious for Meshiach's revelation. But in our generation, we have heard clear and absolute things concerning the time of redemption and the coming of the Meshiach.

"The period began with the announcement of the rebbe shlita as soon as he accepted the leadership on 10 Shvat 5711 (January 17, 1951), that our generation was the seventh generation of Chabad rebbes, and it is the generation of Redemption. This determination was not conditional, and it was clearly established that Meshiach will come in this generation... as was widely explained in [the rebbe's] many discourses said over the years."

\"The most recent period began -- according to the author -- when the rebbe announced in 1980 'Meshiach Now!' He explains, 'The concept of "now" in daily life is different from the concept in relation to the waiting of generations. Nevertheless, "now" in relation to the many generations means a maximum of 2-3 years, since "now" must occur in our generation, the generation of redemption....'

The Lubavitchers are to be pitied for the dilemma they are in. If they deny the rebbe is Moshiach, then they are admitting that the Moshiach status which he pushed for decades was a lie and he was a charlatan. But if they claim he is Moshiach, then they know they run afoul of Judaism -- despite all their twisting and turning to find an acceptable theological argument that will allow him to be Moshiach.

My 11 year old daughter was sitting on the steps with some neighborhood friends, including the 9-year old daughter of a local Lubavitcher rabbi. She asked the daughter if they believe the rebbe is Moshiach. The daughter looked confused, then she said that they believe he's Moshiach but her parents told her not to say it. That's the reality for the entire Lubavtich movement.

Rabbi Klein unfairly blames the loyal chassidim for doing what their rebbe had encouraged them to do. If there is anyone to blame for this state of affairs, it is the rebbe.




The Brisker Rov commented on a sicha that he had seen "der mentch tracht az eir is Moshiach". This is apparently the tradition within Lubavitch.

Rabbi Hirschprung's z"l comments need to be understood in the context of the fact that he was a Lubavitcher.

70

 May 07, 2009 at 07:52 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #40  
dovid Says:

to all of you who hate lubavitch you can take your learning your black hat and shove it and go to hell the basis of the torah is ahvas yisroel before anything if you dont have ahvas yisroelall your learning is worthless thats why the beis hamikdash got destroyed because of low lifes like you guys no difference chabad satmar etc you guys are disgrase to the world you learn shmiras haloshon and you slander people all you people are full of crap i as person who has no affiliation to lubavicth i can tell you ill my trips around the world they are amazing people start doing teshuva

Saying that something is against the Torah is not hating Lubavitch and is not "not having Ahavas Yisroel" and is not violating the laws of Shmiras HaLoshon.

The meshichist and elohist beliefs are against the Torah, no matter what other good these people do. Their beliefs are not the proper Hashkafa and are Apikorsus.

When you say,
"Shove your black hat and go to hell. . . "Low-lifes like you guys, no difference Chabad, Satmar. . . You learn Shmiras HaLoshon and you slander people. . . All you people are full of crap. . ."

Listen to what is coming out of YOUR mouth. Where is YOUR Ahavas Yisroel, and how are YOU keeping the laws of Shmiras HaLoshon, when YOU say things like this about people ? Why are you using Nivul Peh (dirty language, saying that people are full of crap) ? Why are you calling Chabad and Satmar, low-lifes? You must hate Chassidim. Is that Ahavas Yisroel? Is that Shmiras HaLoshon?

In other words, YOU can say downright nasty things about people, but OTHER people can't express their opinions.

71

 May 07, 2009 at 07:35 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #29  
Anonymous Says:

If that is so, then he is calling the Lubavitcher Rebbe an Apikorus, because that was his clear position in Likutei Sichos Vol 2, in the Hosofos for Yud Gimul Shvat. (That the previous Rebbe is Moshiach, and his death didn't change that, because Techiyas Hameisim will happen for Tzaddikim first, so there could be Techiyas Hameisim of Tzaddikim, and then Mashiach could come from among them and bring about Techiyas Hameisim for the rest).

I choose not to believe The Rebbe actually said that. It must be either a mistake, or a miswriting of something else.
I had great respect for The Rebbe, OBM. But if he actually said that, it does toss ALL of my respect for him out the window.

72

 May 07, 2009 at 08:07 AM Dollars Says:

From an encoutner with the Rebbe and Rabbi Klien:

הרבי: שמו הולך לפניו - "שונה הלכות"...
הר"מ קליין: אם באמת שמי הולך כו' - ברצוני שהרבי יפעל שמשיח יבוא!

הרבי: אני הרי צועק ללא הרף אודות ביאת המשיח.
הר"מ קליין: אבל רצוני שהרבי יפעל זאת!.. המצב דחוף ביותר... כעת צריכים רק שהרבי ינהיג את כולם לקראת משיח צדקנו.

הרבי: תפסקו כך ב"שונה הלכות".
הר"מ קליין: נו, אפסוק כן גם להלכה...

הרבי: וגם לפרסם בדפוס, הוראה לרבים

73

 May 07, 2009 at 08:27 AM made up letters Says:

Reply to #72  
Dollars Says:

From an encoutner with the Rebbe and Rabbi Klien:

הרבי: שמו הולך לפניו - "שונה הלכות"...
הר"מ קליין: אם באמת שמי הולך כו' - ברצוני שהרבי יפעל שמשיח יבוא!

הרבי: אני הרי צועק ללא הרף אודות ביאת המשיח.
הר"מ קליין: אבל רצוני שהרבי יפעל זאת!.. המצב דחוף ביותר... כעת צריכים רק שהרבי ינהיג את כולם לקראת משיח צדקנו.

הרבי: תפסקו כך ב"שונה הלכות".
הר"מ קליין: נו, אפסוק כן גם להלכה...

הרבי: וגם לפרסם בדפוס, הוראה לרבים

I once saw a letter which was claimed to be from Rav Moshe z"l to the Rebbe where Rav Moshe said the Rebbe should live forever.

This letter is obviously false and forgery.

All of these letters need to be vetted. The meshichists will invent letters to prove their point.

74

 May 07, 2009 at 08:21 AM mt mehdi Says:

Reply to #32  
WolfishMusings Says:

"In his 17th volume of Mishne Halachos, Klein names people who believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, is still alive, as "Apikoras." "

I'm confused. Why would believing that R. Schneerson (or any other dead person) is alive make one an apikorus. At worst, it just makes him wrong.

I know of people who believe that Elvis is still alive. They may be wrong, but I highly doubt they're apikorsim.

The Wolf

I agree with you 100%. Furthermore, where did the Rabbi say that they are Apikorsim?

75

 May 07, 2009 at 09:11 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #47  
Milhouse Says:

Real chassidim do. Certainly the early chassidim did. Those who don't demonstrate that either they are not real chasidim, or they don't have a real rebbe nowadays. Ovad chosid min ho'oretz.

This so called "expert" Milhaus who claims to know everything, obviously does not know bupkis about chasidus or Belz; as a no=longer active member of the Belzer, I can tell you that we do NOT consider Rav Yissocher (Rokeach) to be Moishiach...while some believed back in Europe that his grandfather (called the "Wonder Rebbe") might be Moishiach that was never a widespread belief. Bottom line: The Belz are not Moishichists, even though we have great love and respect for the rebbe.

76

 May 07, 2009 at 09:06 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
Proud Chabad Chossid Says:

I agree with the Rav 100% as do most Lubavitch Chassidim today.

The moshiachistim are a disgrace to the Rebbe and should not be tolerated at all.

The true Chabad Chassidim are the hard working Shluchim who are Moser Nefesh and give up on both their Gashmiyus and Ruchniyus in order to reach out and help another Jew. The vast majority of Shluchim do not say Yechi and would not in any way affiliate themselves with those that do.

It is trully a shame that such a small but vocal group have being so destructive and tarnished the good name of Lubavitch.

Wishing the Shluchim much success in continuing their holy work and that they succeed in their ultimate goal in bringing Moshiach (whoever he may be) now.

"(whoever he may be)" You know who it is.....dont pretend you dont, you think by saying that you will be looked at as the "normal Lubavitcher". You are just like them all.......and there is nothing wrong with that.........be proud.....and confident!

77

 May 07, 2009 at 08:57 AM Question Reality Says:

We all want MOSHIACH NOW!

Let us all proclaim together "Yechi Adoneinu Moreinu V'Rabeinu Melech HaMoshiach L'Olam Vaed!

78

 May 07, 2009 at 08:52 AM Mother of Shluchim Says:

Reply to #12  
Proud Chabad Chossid Says:

I agree with the Rav 100% as do most Lubavitch Chassidim today.

The moshiachistim are a disgrace to the Rebbe and should not be tolerated at all.

The true Chabad Chassidim are the hard working Shluchim who are Moser Nefesh and give up on both their Gashmiyus and Ruchniyus in order to reach out and help another Jew. The vast majority of Shluchim do not say Yechi and would not in any way affiliate themselves with those that do.

It is trully a shame that such a small but vocal group have being so destructive and tarnished the good name of Lubavitch.

Wishing the Shluchim much success in continuing their holy work and that they succeed in their ultimate goal in bringing Moshiach (whoever he may be) now.

You speak for the vast majority of Lubavitchers. Not all of us are crazy or embarrassing. Most of us just try to continue to carry out the directives of the Rebbe every single day & we wait for Moshiach to be revealed.

I stopped reading at this point because I didn't want to read any more anti-Chabad vitriolic hatred. if you hate us so much, don't use us when it suits you.

79

 May 07, 2009 at 08:09 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

Are they really apikorsim? Read the following:

Rav states:
"If Moshiach will come from the living, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh (i.e.Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi), if he comes from the dead, it will be Daniel (the Prophet)..."

Sanhedrin 98:B

Rashi restates Rav's position as follows:
"This means, that if Moshiach were to come from those who are living now, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh…but if (Moshiach) is to come from those who have died already, it will be 'Daniel Ish Chamudos'..."

Rashi-"Ee Min Chaya, Hu Kegon-Rabainu HaKadosh" 98:B

Now all the misnagdim say that the Rebbe could have been Moshiach! WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THE REBBE WAS ALIVE???

80

 May 07, 2009 at 08:05 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

Are they really apikorsim? Read the following:

Rav states:
"If Moshiach will come from the living, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh (i.e.Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi), if he comes from the dead, it will be Daniel (the Prophet)..."

Sanhedrin 98:B

Rashi restates Rav's position as follows:
"This means, that if Moshiach were to come from those who are living now, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh…but if (Moshiach) is to come from those who have died already, it will be 'Daniel Ish Chamudos'..."

Rashi-"Ee Min Chaya, Hu Kegon-Rabainu HaKadosh" 98:B

Did you read the Gemara? it says from the DEAD, Meshichists hold hes ALIVE, im a chabadsker, but thats a bad proof

81

 May 07, 2009 at 08:03 AM Menachem Says:

Yech Hamelech I am a moshichist. The rebbi is hamelech hamoshiach, everyone has a right to belive or not to belive. I dont show animosity toward my fellow anti moshiach lubaves, and I dont need any recognition from anyone..ITS MY LIFE AND I WILL DO WITH IT WHAT I WANT

82

 May 07, 2009 at 08:51 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #68  
which Rav Says:

Which Rav Soloveitchik is this claimed to be and where is this letter from?

Please! You can't figure it out? Rav JB Soloveitchik of Boston.

83

 May 07, 2009 at 09:17 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #73  
made up letters Says:

I once saw a letter which was claimed to be from Rav Moshe z"l to the Rebbe where Rav Moshe said the Rebbe should live forever.

This letter is obviously false and forgery.

All of these letters need to be vetted. The meshichists will invent letters to prove their point.

Even if the letter is real it does not prove anything. Rav Moshe ZT"L was giving the rebbe a brocho.

84

 May 07, 2009 at 09:19 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #57  
Chossid Says:

WRONG... Dead wrong.

I am a Satmar Chossid, a chossid of the late Satmar Rov, R. Yoilish, ZY'U.

Sure, there were people who loved and were in so much awe of our Rebbe that we 'wondered' .... 'can he be' ....

But, when he was nistalek, and left his earthly body behind, we buried those thoughts on the day of his kevura!
Also, we and the other Chassidim of other great Rebbes, Zichronon L'Vrucha, may have "wondered' if our/their Rebbe may be Moshiach Tzidkeini, but we all believed that it would be DISRESPECTFUL to our Rebbes to say to out loud while he is alive, and DAMAGING to his neshama to say so after his petira.

My father, ZT"L asked my brother and me to not make any hepedim for him, nor allow anyone to. WHY? He said that when a person exaggerates, and makes statements about a person which are not true, it does the opposite of what we want. Instead of giving the neshama an "aliya" it does the opposite, C'V.

So, we certainly would not make a Moshiach out of anyone whose neshama was nistalek.... if we cared about him. How dare we HURT his neshama by saying lies, or making false claims.

When the real Moshiach is announced, we will all know. In the meanwhile, I knew the Lubavitcher Rebbe, ZT"L, and loved him (even though he was not my Rebbe), and I cry inside every time I hear people call him Moshiach. I believe it hurts his precious neshama.

Guys, we do not hate Chabad. We have not hated Chabad. Those of us who sometimes disagree with some Chabad thing do not hate Chabad.

If you believe it hurts his precious neshoma? Why did he say that 770 (gematria) is Beis Moshiach? Why did he rial up the crowd (to sing stronger) when they sang Yechi in front of him? why did he say that moshiach is coming in our generation? Why did he say the Moshiach's name is "Menachem". Why did he say by saying "Yechi hamelech" it adds chayos to Moshiach. (if he is then he is shepping Nachas). Please do some more research.

85

 May 07, 2009 at 09:51 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

Are they really apikorsim? Read the following:

Rav states:
"If Moshiach will come from the living, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh (i.e.Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi), if he comes from the dead, it will be Daniel (the Prophet)..."

Sanhedrin 98:B

Rashi restates Rav's position as follows:
"This means, that if Moshiach were to come from those who are living now, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh…but if (Moshiach) is to come from those who have died already, it will be 'Daniel Ish Chamudos'..."

Rashi-"Ee Min Chaya, Hu Kegon-Rabainu HaKadosh" 98:B

Therefore? Has nothing to do with any of the discussion. The Lubavitcher Rebbe OB"M died and is buried - so how can you compare?

86

 May 07, 2009 at 09:36 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #61  
Mendy Says:


ז' תמוז תשנ"ו:

להלן מענה לשאלות הרבות אודות עמדתי בהנוגע לליובאוויטש ואמונתם המשיחית.

לפני ג' תמוז כללתי את עצמי בין אלה שהאמינו כי הרבי היה ראוי להיות המשיח. אני מאמין באופן מוחלט, כי לו היינו - במיוחד הקהיל האורטודוקסית - מאוחדים, היינו זוכים לגאולה השלימה.

בקשר לאמונה של רבים מחסידי חב”ד (כולל רבנים מובהקים וראשי ישיבות) - אמונה המיוסדת על הצהרות דומות של הרבי בעצמו, בקשר לקודמו בתפקיד הרבי הקודם, כולל רבנים חשובים וראשי ישיבות, שהרבי יכול עדיין להיות משיח - לאור הגמרא בסנהדרין, הזוהר, האברבנאל, כתבי האריז”ל, השדי חמד ועוד מקורות - אני לא יכול לומר שהאמונה הזאת היא דבר שמחוץ לזרם האורתודוכסי."

"כל ניסיון ציני להשתמש בחילוקי דיעות איך לפרש בנושא זה, ולהשתמש בזה כדי להזיק לתנועת חב”ד שהייתה ועדיין ממשיכה להיות התנועה שעומדת בראש הלוחמים במיסיון ובהתבוללות, רק יכול להביא יותר לבעיות בקהילה היהודית, ובמיוחד בקהילה התורנית.

על המחנה התורני לגייס את כל כוחותיו להתאחד, ברוח האמיתית של אהבת ישראל ולהילחם באויב האמיתי של ישראל. אני מוחה וקורא להפסיק כל תעמולה להכפיש את תנועת ליובאוויטש או כל זרם לגיטימי אחר בתוך יהדתו התורה

עד כאן ממכתבו של הרב סולובייצ'יק.

הרב העשל גרינברג שהיה מאחורי הקלעים מספר: הייתי רוצה לספר את הרקע למכתב, כיוון שכאשר אני מזכיר את העובדה שהרב סולובייצ’יק חתם על המכתב, אנשים אומרים לי שהם יודעים ממקורות מוסמכים שזה לא נכון, שהוא אף פעם לא כתב את זה, וזה זיוף, והם יודעים ממקורות מוסמכים שהוא היה תחת לחץ לכתוב את זה, ואחרי זה אני שומע עוד שאנשים אומרים שהם יודעים ממקורות מוסמכים שאחרי זה הוא חזר בו וביטל את המכתב. אם הוא לא כתב את זה -איך הוא ביטל את זה?...

ובכן, אלו הן העובדות: אני הייתי בחדרו של הרב סולובייצ’יק יחד עם עוד שני רבנים שהיו עדים איך שהרב חותם על המכתב.

המכתב עצמו לא נכתב אישית על ידי הרב סולובייצ’יק. הוא לא לקח עט וכתב את זה, כיוון שהוא היה משותק ומאוד היה קשה בשבילו לשבת ולכתוב. המכתב הזה הכיל תוכן מהרעיונות שהרב סולובייצ’יק אמר בעל פה לרב אלי טורין משיקגו, ואני עזרתי לנסח את המכתב שיכיל את כל הרעיונות של הרב סולובייציק בנושא הזה.

הבאנו את המכתב לרב סולובייציק. הרב סולובייציק היה גדול בתורה. אף אחד לא יכול לדמיין לעצמו שאדם בדמותו היה נכנע לכתוב בשמו, דבר שהוא כפירה. אם מישהו מאמין לזה, הוא יכול להאמין כל דבר. זה עלבון גדול לאדם בדמותו של הרב סולובייציק זצ”ל אם יאמינו עליו כזה דבר.

היה לנו דו-שיח מאוד מהנה. דיברנו אודות הנושא ברוח טובה, ואמרנו לרב סולובייציק שזה תוכן המכתב שהיינו מבקשים לפרסם כדי להפסיק את ההתקפות הבזויות הללו על חב”ד. האם הרב מוכן לחתום על זה. הרב סולובייציק עבר על המכתב מאוד בזהירות. קרא פעם ועוד פעם, ואחר כך אמר “אני אחתום על זה”, והוא אכן חתם על זה.

המכתב פורסם בעיתון ג’ואיש פרעס, ולפני שהם פירסמו את זה, המערכת בעצמה צילצלה לרב סולובייציק לוודא שזאת אכן חתימתו על המכתב. הוא אישר את זה, ורק אז המערכת פירסמה את המכתב.

מה שמדברים על ההבהרה שהוא פירסם שבוע אחר כך, שמשתמע ממנה כאילו הוא חזר בדבריו, זה היה כיוון שמישהו פירש את המכתב שלא לנכון. הרב סולובייציק לא חתם שהוא אומר שהרבי הוא משיח, אלא רק שזה דבר לגיטימי, שיש מקורות לגיטימיים לאמונה של אלו שמאמינים, ואף אחד לא יכול לבקר את זה או לגנות את זה. זה תוכן מכתבו השני של הרב סולובייצ’יק, שפורסם בגואיש פרעס שבוע אחר כך.

אם האמת כדברי האומרים שהאמונה הזאת היא כפירה -איך הרב סולובייצ’יק יכול לומר שאסור לגנות את זה?אלה שהכירו את הרב אהרן סולובייצ’יק, ואני הכרתי אותו היטב, יודעים שמדובר באדם שלא חת לפרסם את דעתו ברבים, גם כאשר היא לא נעמה לחוגים מסויימים.

היו לי הרבה הזדמנויות לדבר איתו ולשמוע את השקפותיו החזקות בעניני יהדות. הוא היה תקיף מאוד נגד הממשל הישראלי על כך שהם החזירו שטחים תמורת הסכמי השלום המזוייפים. לאידך, הוא תמך תמיכה מלאה בעניינים שלדעתו היו חשובים, למרות שלדעת רבים ביהדות ארצות הברית הם לא היו פופולריים.

ובנושא הזה לא שמענו שום ביקורת ממנו. הדבר היחיד ששמענו ממנו, שזאת אמונה לגיטימית המיוסדת על מקורות היהדות, ואין בעייה להאמין היום שהרבי הוא מלך המשיח. לכן, כל מי שממשיך ללחום, לבקר ולגנות את חסידי חב”ד על אמונתם זו, הוא מכריז מלחמה גם נגד גדול בתורה בדמותו של הרב סולובייצ’יק.

This letter was forced upon R' Ahron Solevechik ZT"L to sign. At the time he was aged and infirm (he passed away several years later), and was not totally conigtive. When he realized what he had signed, he retracted. I lived in Chicago at the time, and remember the issue. See David Berger's book for the full story.

87

 May 07, 2009 at 09:35 AM Jack Says:

Reply to #22  
sholom ber Says:

as a lubavitcher, lets put things into order
1. dovid melech yisroel chai vekayom
2. yacov lo meas
3. rav says "rabinue hakodeash"
in the messichistim there are a few levels of crazy ones!
Apikorsim? please whats next? if you go to touro college you are a goy?
you wear a black hat you go straight to gan eden???
what do you do when a nonlubavitcher knocks on your door for money??? u scream yechi at him? please everyone drink some tea or coffee and let live!

And may I add, nevuah was given to shotim and ketanim.

88

 May 07, 2009 at 09:35 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

What else is new? This is something everyone has know for the last 15 years! If only those in Chabad (minority or majority) would break with the messianic element, painful as it may be, it would prevent the rest of the Orthodox world (both Charedi and MO) from writing off the entire Chabad movement as messianic.

Wether or not "Lubavitch Messianics" are right or wrong, the fact is we were always looked upon as such and ridiculed. This being true 40 years ago. His sichos were ripped and his prophecies mocked by these very people who are commenting here about his greatness.
The Rebbe made many Horoas re bringing Moshiach closer. How many people commenting here are prepared to fulfill them so that his most pressing wish should actually be realized?.
Emor meat vaase harbe
Zeitz matzliach in brengt Moshiach

89

 May 07, 2009 at 09:34 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
sholom ber Says:

as a lubavitcher, lets put things into order
1. dovid melech yisroel chai vekayom
2. yacov lo meas
3. rav says "rabinue hakodeash"
in the messichistim there are a few levels of crazy ones!
Apikorsim? please whats next? if you go to touro college you are a goy?
you wear a black hat you go straight to gan eden???
what do you do when a nonlubavitcher knocks on your door for money??? u scream yechi at him? please everyone drink some tea or coffee and let live!

Smartypants, let's NOT sip tea and pretend all is good. Let me educate you, if you say you are god you are an apikores, if you say jews can believe in jesus you are an apikores, and if you say that the dead man is mushiach you are an apikored AND and a fool

90

 May 07, 2009 at 09:27 AM BS Says:

Reply to #2  
FOL Says:

Sadly, people tend to judge an entire movement by some of the more vocal lunatics within, neglecting the recognition of the Rebbe's gadlus in being instrumental in bringing thousands back to Yiddishkeit (B"H Rabbi Klein does recognize him). We are not Lubovitchers but my husband davens in a Lubovitch shteibel because of it's warmth and acceptance of all Jews. The rov of this shul refers to the Rebbe as the Rebbe ZT"L. Remember, the parts do not define the whole. Give Lubovitch a break already.

please read his words again
he didn't bash lubvitch, all he said were the ones that believe he's moshiach, & that he's still alive are apikorsim.
he didn't mention a thing about the greater lubavitcher community

91

 May 07, 2009 at 09:24 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #27  
ZR Says:

As a Lubavitcher, I say, most of Chabad are absolutely disgusted with the Meshichistim. They have done allot of damage to the name Lubavitch and the Rebbe. There are currently court cases costing in the millions trying to eject these people from 770.

But at the same time I must say that Chabad is criticized for many other things which have no basis in halacha (for eg. the bor al gabei bor mikvah issue -- which I must point out in the long debate a few days back, NOT ONE person was able to explain in halachic terms why bor al gabei bor might be problematic. NOT ONE person was able to bring a posek on the level and generation of R' Moshe Feinstein (who praised the chabad design) that says bor al gabei bor is posul. Ironically the Chazon Ish didn't like the Hashoko mikvah design - which most side by side mikvos use. So in fact the standard side by side Hashoko mikvah is more problematic than the bor al gabei bor.) Yet, in many circles, this myth perpetuates. For some reason, the very fact Chabad is associated with a certain type of Mikvah is enough to shun it. And even to label it posul.

This kneejerk resistance toward Chabad has caused many in Chabad to simply stop trying to accommodate the Litvish concerns.

Most of the M' camp excesses are a result of this attitude that the "’Litvish velts has always opposed Chabad in whatever we do; be it Teffilin, be it shabbos candles for girls, be it kiruv, be it lag b'omer parades. This is just the latest issue. Nothing we do is good enough for them. So it’s no point trying.”

Unfortunately, most in Chabad (and especially the M's) believe the Litvish velt has lost their credibility to criticize chabad.

This is a situation of the boy who cried wolf, in that now when the M's would do good to look at their actions, it gets shrugged off as "typical misnagdim - always against us for the last 200 years.

But let’s not forget that these people are a minority and must, Bezras Hashem, be stopped.


Bor al Gabei Bor was rejected by the Divrei Chaim of Zanz; see Tahros Yom Tov at length regarding the issue.

92

 May 07, 2009 at 09:58 AM avi Says:

Reply to #2  
FOL Says:

Sadly, people tend to judge an entire movement by some of the more vocal lunatics within, neglecting the recognition of the Rebbe's gadlus in being instrumental in bringing thousands back to Yiddishkeit (B"H Rabbi Klein does recognize him). We are not Lubovitchers but my husband davens in a Lubovitch shteibel because of it's warmth and acceptance of all Jews. The rov of this shul refers to the Rebbe as the Rebbe ZT"L. Remember, the parts do not define the whole. Give Lubovitch a break already.

FOL - you missed the entire point!! Rav Klein Specifically did NOT judge or refer to the entire Lubavitch, only to the meshichists!!

93

 May 07, 2009 at 09:56 AM proud chabadsker Says:

Rav menashe Klein agrees with the Gemoroh and abarbanel that Moshiach can come from the dead. his only objection in the beginning is against those who say a dead Tzadik is alive.

Besides the fact that the Rebbe disagreed with him on this point most of what Rabbi Klein says goes against what ALL chassidim believe in.

Going to the Ohel, your own Rebbe has the potential to be Moshiach and many other things.

Rabbi Klein also understands the Rambam as the last word on what will happen when Moshiach comes which is clearly against what ALL Chabad Rebbes understood.

Dehainu, we follow the RambaN and not the RambaM uchedoimeh

But thanks should go to Rabbi Klein for reaffirming the belief of a Jew that Moshiach come from someone who already pased away.

94

 May 07, 2009 at 09:37 AM Jack Says:

Reply to #81  
Menachem Says:

Yech Hamelech I am a moshichist. The rebbi is hamelech hamoshiach, everyone has a right to belive or not to belive. I dont show animosity toward my fellow anti moshiach lubaves, and I dont need any recognition from anyone..ITS MY LIFE AND I WILL DO WITH IT WHAT I WANT

you certainly have the right to be foolish and wrong. We are just highlighting your rights.

95

 May 07, 2009 at 09:28 AM Litvaker Says:

I think it's time for us all to learn the concepts and halochos of Moshiach so that we can draw some sort of educated conclusion.

Although I am not a fan of all chasidim in general including Lubavitch/ Satmar/ Belz/etc. being that my family tree goes back to Vilna and we are current talmidim of Ponovezh, It's obvious to me that the majority of posters on this site have no clue of what they are talking about being that they have never once in their lives learnt Hilchos Beis Habchiro.

Pre conceived notions about Chasidim or chabad or moshiach will not help you draw an honest conclusion.

I have spent 6 months in a small Lakewood Kollel researching this very subject together with my Chavrusa and I must tell you that the average Frum/Yeshivish/Litvish guy has no clue about the subject matter.

To make a long story short we have come to the conclusion that the Lubavitcher Rebbe could still be Moshiach.

We have not delved into the subject of Lo Meis like we see by Yaacov Avinu or Moshe Rabbeinu. We were strictly focusing on the Moshiach issue.

P.S. When the Rambam says Neherag he is making a clear distinction between the Amoroim in Sanhedrin Daf Tzadik Ches who are of the opinion that Moshiach could be from those who passed on and Bar Kochva who was killed.

96

 May 07, 2009 at 11:13 AM "yechi hamalkoh" Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

I agree. There is no halachic support for this opinion and they are damaging the rep. of "normal Lubavitchers" May the true Moshiach come soon!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Yechi ha'melech" "ve'hamalkah" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who cares its only a few thousand mesugoiem they are not representing the real lubavitch yiddishe people. Without chabad Jews wouldn't have mikvehs and shules all over the world. To think of it this is what a Jew must do not like satmar and all the other chasidim or litvish. Do nothing besides fighting within and trying to overpower others. If u will say oh. Look at the chesed in satmar like no others. Guess what #1 lehavdil goyim give charity as well they have all kind of none for profit orgs. Big deal what does satmar sell besides jihadding their views on others. Satmar thinks when ha'shem gave the torah it was wrapped around with the words "SATMAR" in gold look at all the chasidim all of them are the same. And litvish are stamm ignorant tembelech with nothing besides knowing their last name. AND YES I'm A PROUD SELF HATING CHUSSID. Was born in a chassidisha family and probably they will bury me in a chassidisha cemetery. Not that I want nor care its all about power

97

 May 07, 2009 at 11:23 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #71  
Anonymous Says:

I choose not to believe The Rebbe actually said that. It must be either a mistake, or a miswriting of something else.
I had great respect for The Rebbe, OBM. But if he actually said that, it does toss ALL of my respect for him out the window.

good thing you didn't publish your name because then you would showed of some real am hartzus

98

 May 07, 2009 at 11:06 AM Can't be Moshiach Says:

Reply to #95  
Litvaker Says:

I think it's time for us all to learn the concepts and halochos of Moshiach so that we can draw some sort of educated conclusion.

Although I am not a fan of all chasidim in general including Lubavitch/ Satmar/ Belz/etc. being that my family tree goes back to Vilna and we are current talmidim of Ponovezh, It's obvious to me that the majority of posters on this site have no clue of what they are talking about being that they have never once in their lives learnt Hilchos Beis Habchiro.

Pre conceived notions about Chasidim or chabad or moshiach will not help you draw an honest conclusion.

I have spent 6 months in a small Lakewood Kollel researching this very subject together with my Chavrusa and I must tell you that the average Frum/Yeshivish/Litvish guy has no clue about the subject matter.

To make a long story short we have come to the conclusion that the Lubavitcher Rebbe could still be Moshiach.

We have not delved into the subject of Lo Meis like we see by Yaacov Avinu or Moshe Rabbeinu. We were strictly focusing on the Moshiach issue.

P.S. When the Rambam says Neherag he is making a clear distinction between the Amoroim in Sanhedrin Daf Tzadik Ches who are of the opinion that Moshiach could be from those who passed on and Bar Kochva who was killed.

What evidence is there that he is ben achar ben from Dovid hamelech?

I can't believe that someone that had no children could me Moshiach which would imply that Bais Dovid died out since there is no ben achar ben.

99

 May 07, 2009 at 11:06 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
Proud Chabad Chossid Says:

I agree with the Rav 100% as do most Lubavitch Chassidim today.

The moshiachistim are a disgrace to the Rebbe and should not be tolerated at all.

The true Chabad Chassidim are the hard working Shluchim who are Moser Nefesh and give up on both their Gashmiyus and Ruchniyus in order to reach out and help another Jew. The vast majority of Shluchim do not say Yechi and would not in any way affiliate themselves with those that do.

It is trully a shame that such a small but vocal group have being so destructive and tarnished the good name of Lubavitch.

Wishing the Shluchim much success in continuing their holy work and that they succeed in their ultimate goal in bringing Moshiach (whoever he may be) now.

your not a proud chosid your afraid of your own shadow

100

 May 07, 2009 at 10:59 AM Rav Moshe wouldn't Says:

Reply to #83  
Anonymous Says:

Even if the letter is real it does not prove anything. Rav Moshe ZT"L was giving the rebbe a brocho.

Rav Moshe wouldn't say such a ridiculous and outlandish thing.

All of Klal yisroel says ad meyah v'esrim. No one ever says forever especially since the gemara says that everyone will die before techiyas hamaisim.

101

 May 07, 2009 at 11:34 AM Normal Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

Are they really apikorsim? Read the following:

Rav states:
"If Moshiach will come from the living, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh (i.e.Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi), if he comes from the dead, it will be Daniel (the Prophet)..."

Sanhedrin 98:B

Rashi restates Rav's position as follows:
"This means, that if Moshiach were to come from those who are living now, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh…but if (Moshiach) is to come from those who have died already, it will be 'Daniel Ish Chamudos'..."

Rashi-"Ee Min Chaya, Hu Kegon-Rabainu HaKadosh" 98:B

True...but where does it say that it is going to be the Rebbe ZT"L..based on the above Rashi it is Daniel...also,where does it say that Daniel did not die and is still walking around......you guys are nuts, bordering on Avodah Zorah and a disgrace to Lubavitch and the Rebbe

102

 May 07, 2009 at 11:33 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #89  
Anonymous Says:

Smartypants, let's NOT sip tea and pretend all is good. Let me educate you, if you say you are god you are an apikores, if you say jews can believe in jesus you are an apikores, and if you say that the dead man is mushiach you are an apikored AND and a fool

Wrong, A dead man can be moshiach. If you learnt the gemoro in sanhedrin with pirush Rashi you would not write what is clearly wrong. Also look in sdai Chemed and abarbenal. Hakodosh Boruch hu should send us Moshiach and take us out of Golus.

103

 May 07, 2009 at 12:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #59  
esther Says:

as the freidiker [previous]lubavitcher rebbe said ''nu,at least their talking about mosiach''

By convoluting one of the ikarei haemunah?

104

 May 07, 2009 at 12:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #50  
think logically Says:

Kudos to Rabbi Klein for saying the obvious, which is unfortunately not obvious today, with our generation's utter confusion in so many areas of hashkafa.

The Meshichists think the same as the rest of the Lubavitchers; the only difference is that they say what they think rather than keep quiet about it as the others do, because of fear of condemnation and contempt by other frum. That's also why the Meshichists are tolerated in the movement, and in Israel, Kfar Chabad and other important positions in Chabad are headed by Meshichists. If the rest of the movement looked at them as an aberration, they would have had no trouble kicking them out of their group, as they did to other groups in their history.

Let's not forget some basic facts: The previous rebbe fostered the Messianic atmosphere around him throughout his entire career as rebbe, beginning with the very first maamor he gave when he turned rebbe in 1951. He had numerous opportunities to stop the messianic craze around him over 40 years, but to the contrary, he encouraged it. He was the one who told the chassidim to demand the revelation of Moshiach, which spurred the crazy petitions and demonstrations in the January 1993. The rebbe was too clever to openly call himself Moshiach, but he primed his chassidim so they would push his candidacy for Moshiach for him. To all those who deny it, answer this: who else arrogated for himself the appellation "Nasi Hador"? Who else talked constantly in terms of the upcoming Geula and his chassidus' books constantly spoke about it? And why didn't any other group in Klal Yisroel announce that their rebbe is the Moshiach as Lubavitch did, despite the chassidim feeling no less reverence for their rebbes? Anyone with half a brain cannot deny that the rebbe himself encouraged the craze.

Just by way of illustration, in 1983, long before the division of the chassidim into Meshichistim and more sane chassidim, Lubavitch chassidim published (the Hebrew-language) "The Anthology of Torah Novellae concerning the Meshiach King" to determine how the Meshiach King will be revealed, and particularly who the Meshiach king is.. The editor writes in the introduction that although in the past they wrote little about this topic, they feel there is greater need for it now "since we're already on the verge of the Redemption."

In the introduction: "This anthology was published on the occasion of the 80th birthday of the rebbe -- the Meshiach king. May Hashem make this year, 1983, the revelation of the Meshiach, and may the one who stands in the breach break the walls of the Exile with the onset of the true, complete Redemption - NOW!"

The first essay: "... throughout the generations, there was no righteous or great man who determined when Moshiach would come. Even those who calculated the final times only spoke about times that were auspicious for Meshiach's revelation. But in our generation, we have heard clear and absolute things concerning the time of redemption and the coming of the Meshiach.

"The period began with the announcement of the rebbe shlita as soon as he accepted the leadership on 10 Shvat 5711 (January 17, 1951), that our generation was the seventh generation of Chabad rebbes, and it is the generation of Redemption. This determination was not conditional, and it was clearly established that Meshiach will come in this generation... as was widely explained in [the rebbe's] many discourses said over the years."

\"The most recent period began -- according to the author -- when the rebbe announced in 1980 'Meshiach Now!' He explains, 'The concept of "now" in daily life is different from the concept in relation to the waiting of generations. Nevertheless, "now" in relation to the many generations means a maximum of 2-3 years, since "now" must occur in our generation, the generation of redemption....'

The Lubavitchers are to be pitied for the dilemma they are in. If they deny the rebbe is Moshiach, then they are admitting that the Moshiach status which he pushed for decades was a lie and he was a charlatan. But if they claim he is Moshiach, then they know they run afoul of Judaism -- despite all their twisting and turning to find an acceptable theological argument that will allow him to be Moshiach.

My 11 year old daughter was sitting on the steps with some neighborhood friends, including the 9-year old daughter of a local Lubavitcher rabbi. She asked the daughter if they believe the rebbe is Moshiach. The daughter looked confused, then she said that they believe he's Moshiach but her parents told her not to say it. That's the reality for the entire Lubavtich movement.

Rabbi Klein unfairly blames the loyal chassidim for doing what their rebbe had encouraged them to do. If there is anyone to blame for this state of affairs, it is the rebbe.




Sad, but true.

105

 May 07, 2009 at 12:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #42  
Anonymous Says:

The Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT"L passed away, years ago. He is dead.

The meshichists are saying that he is alive. "Yechi Adonaynu Moraynu V'Rabaynu Melech HaMoshiach L'Olam Va'ed."

The meshichists and elohists (who believe that the L"R is "elokus b'lvush gashmi" (godliness in a physical body), and which the Yoshka believers also use against us) are spreading a false Hashkafa.

In order to be a properly-Torah-observant Jew, one must have a proper Hashkafa, as well as a knowledge of Halacha.

If anyone disagrees with them, Chabad said it's because they're Litvish. It has nothing to do with whether one is Litvish or whether one is from a Chassidic group other than Lubavitch. The L"R was not Moshiach. We have not been redeemed from Golus. Also, the L"R is dead. He is not alive.

What the elohistin believe is not merely a false hashkafa, it is avodah zarah mamash!

106

 May 07, 2009 at 12:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #39  
A Lubavitcher Says:

"Ain lonu e'la divrey ben almram", we follow what the Rebbe told us. And to all those that criticize, all i can say is: Your starting with none other then the Rebbe himself!
Al tig'u bimishicho, u'vinvi'ay al to're'u!!!

If you think that the late Rebbe's statements are comparable to divrei amram, you certainly are an apikorus

107

 May 07, 2009 at 11:58 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #29  
Anonymous Says:

If that is so, then he is calling the Lubavitcher Rebbe an Apikorus, because that was his clear position in Likutei Sichos Vol 2, in the Hosofos for Yud Gimul Shvat. (That the previous Rebbe is Moshiach, and his death didn't change that, because Techiyas Hameisim will happen for Tzaddikim first, so there could be Techiyas Hameisim of Tzaddikim, and then Mashiach could come from among them and bring about Techiyas Hameisim for the rest).

You said it, not me.

108

 May 07, 2009 at 11:56 AM Z Says:

Why The Lubavitche Rebbe is not Mashiach
From the writings of the Rambam

1) Mashiach must to be a Navi (there is only nevuah in eretz Yisrael- the rebbe never was there). He has to be greater a navi than Avraham Avinu and less of a navi than Moshe Rabeinu.
2) Depends on results- Rabbi Akiva thought Bar Kochva was mashiach, but when he died he realized that he was not mashiach, so he moved on.
3) Mashiach will reign like a king and then die, and then his son will take over, and then his son, just like malchus beis david. The rebbe had no sons or daughters.
4) Mashiach must be a decendent from Malchus beis David paternally. The rebbe was a decendent through his father in law. His father in law was the previous rebbe.

109

 May 07, 2009 at 12:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #82  
Anonymous Says:

Please! You can't figure it out? Rav JB Soloveitchik of Boston.

Actually, I think it was his brother from Chicago, but that is not the whole story. He later said that that was not what he was told he was signing. He said that moshiach must come from the living and his sole intent was that Chabad should not be considered apikorsim. Whether that is true or not (that they're not apikorsim)- ich veis nit

110

 May 07, 2009 at 12:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #79  
Anonymous Says:

Now all the misnagdim say that the Rebbe could have been Moshiach! WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THE REBBE WAS ALIVE???

Don't be motzi la'az on all the misnagdim. Anyone who believes that doesn't deserve the title misnaged!

111

 May 07, 2009 at 12:18 PM Gevaldig Says:

Amazing to see so many tayere Yidden so passionate about inyonei geulo u'moshiach.. And so much emesser achdus and ahavas Yisroel here. (I'm not trying to be funny - I truly believe that even those on this board who try to sound tough are merely acting out on their built-up brotherly love - b'emes)... And since there's definitely no ulteriour motives here, one is forced to conclude that this is pure ahavas chinom which will bring us to Geulo shleimo v'emitis toikef u'miyad MaMoSh!

And a groisser yasher koyach to R' Klein (shlit'a? can we say this "shlit'a" at all these days without being called names??). Since I'm a proste yid and an am ho'oretz, who am I to figure if you're a godel or a kuton? But ein zach iz for sure - you did succeed in bringing great numbers of Yidden to finally talk about Moshiach. Sh'koyach!!

We must be MaMoSH on the threshold of the Rebbe's hisgalus.

Yechi HaMelech!

112

 May 07, 2009 at 12:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #82  
Anonymous Says:

Please! You can't figure it out? Rav JB Soloveitchik of Boston.

Im glad it seems so obvious to you because you are absolutely wrong - it was Rav Ahron Soloveitchik. But nice try.

113

 May 07, 2009 at 12:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #69  
Brisker Rov Says:

The Brisker Rov commented on a sicha that he had seen "der mentch tracht az eir is Moshiach". This is apparently the tradition within Lubavitch.

Rabbi Hirschprung's z"l comments need to be understood in the context of the fact that he was a Lubavitcher.

Rav Hirschprung was absolutely not a Lubavitcher. However, after traveling the world and testing the supposed Gedolei Hador - the only one who was able to impress him was the Rebbe. To the point that he made a number of trips to CH from Montreal just to sit at the Rebbes side.

114

 May 07, 2009 at 12:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #81  
Menachem Says:

Yech Hamelech I am a moshichist. The rebbi is hamelech hamoshiach, everyone has a right to belive or not to belive. I dont show animosity toward my fellow anti moshiach lubaves, and I dont need any recognition from anyone..ITS MY LIFE AND I WILL DO WITH IT WHAT I WANT

You are right! You have a democratic right to believe in Yoshke as well. We are trying to talk about the Torah Hashkofa not what YOU can do.

PS. I can't even stop you believing in Mohamed!!

115

 May 07, 2009 at 12:36 PM ZZZ? why Z is not awake Says:

Reply to #108  
Z Says:

Why The Lubavitche Rebbe is not Mashiach
From the writings of the Rambam

1) Mashiach must to be a Navi (there is only nevuah in eretz Yisrael- the rebbe never was there). He has to be greater a navi than Avraham Avinu and less of a navi than Moshe Rabeinu.
2) Depends on results- Rabbi Akiva thought Bar Kochva was mashiach, but when he died he realized that he was not mashiach, so he moved on.
3) Mashiach will reign like a king and then die, and then his son will take over, and then his son, just like malchus beis david. The rebbe had no sons or daughters.
4) Mashiach must be a decendent from Malchus beis David paternally. The rebbe was a decendent through his father in law. His father in law was the previous rebbe.


Re.1) The Rebbe is a Novi. This is documented and beyond dispute - there are piskei din on the matter. Re. nevuah only in Eretz Yisroel - pls site the source.
Re. 2) So? Learn Rambam - there are stages to Geulo. It's like a nurse telling a lady in labour who wants to check-in to the hospital that "it depends on results"...
Re. 3) Is this in Rambam - Hilchos Melochim p. 11 - hidden somewhere between the lines or own your p'shat / chidush? Re. "and then die... " - what happened to t'chiyas hameisim?
Re. 4) The Rebbe *is* the direct paternal descendant of Dovid HaMelech - this is also documented and beyond dispute - please learn.

116

 May 07, 2009 at 01:09 PM zee Says:

to #115
stop please stop

117

 May 07, 2009 at 01:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #108  
Z Says:

Why The Lubavitche Rebbe is not Mashiach
From the writings of the Rambam

1) Mashiach must to be a Navi (there is only nevuah in eretz Yisrael- the rebbe never was there). He has to be greater a navi than Avraham Avinu and less of a navi than Moshe Rabeinu.
2) Depends on results- Rabbi Akiva thought Bar Kochva was mashiach, but when he died he realized that he was not mashiach, so he moved on.
3) Mashiach will reign like a king and then die, and then his son will take over, and then his son, just like malchus beis david. The rebbe had no sons or daughters.
4) Mashiach must be a decendent from Malchus beis David paternally. The rebbe was a decendent through his father in law. His father in law was the previous rebbe.

FYI: R' Akiva, along with the rest of the Sanhedrin, rejected Bar Kokhba when he murdered one of the Sanhedrin for disagreeing with him. He died immediately after in battle because he lost the support of the Sanhedrin.

118

 May 07, 2009 at 01:06 PM Find the Facts Says:

The Rebbe is Ben Achar ben of Dovid Hamelech.

119

 May 07, 2009 at 01:18 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #42  
Anonymous Says:

The Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT"L passed away, years ago. He is dead.

The meshichists are saying that he is alive. "Yechi Adonaynu Moraynu V'Rabaynu Melech HaMoshiach L'Olam Va'ed."

The meshichists and elohists (who believe that the L"R is "elokus b'lvush gashmi" (godliness in a physical body), and which the Yoshka believers also use against us) are spreading a false Hashkafa.

In order to be a properly-Torah-observant Jew, one must have a proper Hashkafa, as well as a knowledge of Halacha.

If anyone disagrees with them, Chabad said it's because they're Litvish. It has nothing to do with whether one is Litvish or whether one is from a Chassidic group other than Lubavitch. The L"R was not Moshiach. We have not been redeemed from Golus. Also, the L"R is dead. He is not alive.

1. "Yechi..." doesn't mean he's alive. The ones who say he's not alive, and that's OK because Moshiach can come from the dead, still say Yechi. And even antis say "Yechi hamelech"; the objection is not to the reisha ("yechi") but to the seifa ("melech hamoshiach"). The Rebbe himself clearly said that it's appropriate to say "yechi"; but he didn't endorse the whole slogan.

2. If you object to the idea that a rebbe is "atzmus umehus vi er is araingeton in a guf", then you've got a big problem, because the Rebbe himself said that. To understand it you need to learn a lot of chassidus, but you have no right to condemn it or to call it "a false hashkafa" and incompatible with "being a properly-Torah-observant Jew". Surely you will agree that the LR himself was a "properly-Torah-observant Jew" with a "proper Hashkafa", and yet this is what he believed. Lo oleinu telunoseichem...

120

 May 07, 2009 at 01:23 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #43  
Anonymous Says:

Stop blaming politics.

There are people, many people who think Chabad is wonderful, but are only against the meshichistim.

They think of the Mikva al gabai Mikvah a Chabad thing, not a meshichist thing.

They do not like the Mikvah al Gabai Mikvah on its own merits (and it does have merits, they just don't overcome its negatives according to them).

People in Chabad (and some others too) love to invalidate others' opinions, by claming, "It's Politics. They don't like our Mikva because they hate Chabad.'

That itself is a divisive, wrong remark.

The next technique they use is to call anyone who disagrees with anything Chabad, and "Am Haaretz." It seems only those whose opinions match Chabad can learn, all others are ignorant.

Some of the things Chabad does are wonderful.

Sure, there are those who disagree with some things. And, YES, Chabad can point to successes, which they claim jusitify the actions. Others disagree.

Chabad wants them to respect Chabad.
But, when was the last time Chabad respected other people's opinions, without calling everyone an Am Haaretz?

The thing is, there are no negatives in the bor al gabei bor. In 100 years nobody has been able to come up with a single valid objection to it. Therefore those who still object to it are motivated by politics; it is perfectly true that the only reason they don't like it is because they hate Chabad. There is no other reason possible. Unless, of course, one is an amhooretz. An amhooretz has the excuse that he can't learn, so he doesn't know that there are no valid arguments against bor al gabei bor, and he is simply trusting those whom he thinks are responsible talmidei chachomim, who tell him that there is some objection. Nu, what can he do, he's an amhooretz. But someone who is not an amhooretz and tells people not to use a Chabad mikveh, is a hater; there is no other possibility.

121

 May 07, 2009 at 02:05 PM A Lubavitcher Says:

Reply to #106  
Anonymous Says:

If you think that the late Rebbe's statements are comparable to divrei amram, you certainly are an apikorus

"Mordechai bidoro, ki'moshe bidoro" is what the medresh says regarding Mordechai. And as its brought down in Zohar: "Ispashtusa di'moshe bichol dora vi'dora".
Your Am-Haratzus, does not make me an Apikorus!!!

122

 May 07, 2009 at 01:50 PM Ungvarer Rov??? Says:

It is well known that Klein was not even a dogcatcher in Ungvar much less a Rov there.

123

 May 07, 2009 at 01:42 PM Boruch Says:

If Rabbi Klein really believes that Mishichistin are apikursim, then I wonder why he doesn't also write off rashi as an apikores. Rashi says that Yaakov avinu loy meis means mamash in a guf (see taanis page 5). One must conclude that Rashi, the abarbanel etc. are all apikursim. Misguided and wacked out, the meshichistim may be, but APIKURSIM!? Give me a break.

124

 May 07, 2009 at 01:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
Anonymous Says:

he didn't say if you believe the Rebbe is Moshiach he said if you believe that the Rebbe is Alive Rabbi Klien is a Meshichist

you are mistaken if you read what he writes he writes that the rebbe is not moshiach

125

 May 07, 2009 at 01:35 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #44  
Anonymous Says:

You may be correct. But believing in a "second coming" is a very non-Jewish theology. At the time of the second churban there were many sects among the Judeans. One of those sects believed in resurrection. That sect did wonderful outreach and had wonderful PR. An entire empire took on that belief and in turn cost the lives of millions of Jews.

Excuse me? Jews believe in resurrection. It's an ikkar in emunah. And the Abarbanel clearly does allow for Moshiach to be from those who will rise from the dead, so you can't rule it out. You don't have to believe that it will happen, but you can't be sure that it won't, and you certainly can't call people goyim for believing it.

The problem with Xianity is NOT that they think J is Moshiach. If a frumme yid, who believes in all the ikkarim, happens to believe that J is Moshiach, he remains a kosher Jew and is doing nothing wrong. There are "Messianic Jews" who CLAIM that this is what they believe, but they're lying; they are orthodox (with a small 'o') Protestants, who only pretend to believe in Yiddishkeit-plus-J-as-Moshiach, in order to entrap unsuspecting Jews. But lu yetzuyor that someone actually did believe as they claim to, then there would be no grounds to object to him. The early Xians, J's own talmidim, were exactly like that, and Chazal DID accept them. The Prushim had no objection to Xianity until it was taken over by pagans and antisemites. So even if you want to compare the Lubavitch Messianics to the early Xians, that's not a reason to reject them. You are not more expert than the Prushim on what is an acceptable hashkafa.

126

 May 07, 2009 at 01:27 PM Anonymous Says:

even with the truth in front of them people will choose to believe what they want to. the popular lubavich hotline known for its entertainment value said it best : we did not make up that the rebbe is moshiach,the rebbe made it up.

127

 May 07, 2009 at 02:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #119  
Milhouse Says:

1. "Yechi..." doesn't mean he's alive. The ones who say he's not alive, and that's OK because Moshiach can come from the dead, still say Yechi. And even antis say "Yechi hamelech"; the objection is not to the reisha ("yechi") but to the seifa ("melech hamoshiach"). The Rebbe himself clearly said that it's appropriate to say "yechi"; but he didn't endorse the whole slogan.

2. If you object to the idea that a rebbe is "atzmus umehus vi er is araingeton in a guf", then you've got a big problem, because the Rebbe himself said that. To understand it you need to learn a lot of chassidus, but you have no right to condemn it or to call it "a false hashkafa" and incompatible with "being a properly-Torah-observant Jew". Surely you will agree that the LR himself was a "properly-Torah-observant Jew" with a "proper Hashkafa", and yet this is what he believed. Lo oleinu telunoseichem...

Atzmus Umahus areingeshtelt in a guf sounds an awful lot like kfirah to me

128

 May 07, 2009 at 02:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #115  
ZZZ? why Z is not awake Says:


Re.1) The Rebbe is a Novi. This is documented and beyond dispute - there are piskei din on the matter. Re. nevuah only in Eretz Yisroel - pls site the source.
Re. 2) So? Learn Rambam - there are stages to Geulo. It's like a nurse telling a lady in labour who wants to check-in to the hospital that "it depends on results"...
Re. 3) Is this in Rambam - Hilchos Melochim p. 11 - hidden somewhere between the lines or own your p'shat / chidush? Re. "and then die... " - what happened to t'chiyas hameisim?
Re. 4) The Rebbe *is* the direct paternal descendant of Dovid HaMelech - this is also documented and beyond dispute - please learn.

the rambam is the one who says that you judge him on the merits of his results

129

 May 07, 2009 at 02:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #125  
Milhouse Says:

Excuse me? Jews believe in resurrection. It's an ikkar in emunah. And the Abarbanel clearly does allow for Moshiach to be from those who will rise from the dead, so you can't rule it out. You don't have to believe that it will happen, but you can't be sure that it won't, and you certainly can't call people goyim for believing it.

The problem with Xianity is NOT that they think J is Moshiach. If a frumme yid, who believes in all the ikkarim, happens to believe that J is Moshiach, he remains a kosher Jew and is doing nothing wrong. There are "Messianic Jews" who CLAIM that this is what they believe, but they're lying; they are orthodox (with a small 'o') Protestants, who only pretend to believe in Yiddishkeit-plus-J-as-Moshiach, in order to entrap unsuspecting Jews. But lu yetzuyor that someone actually did believe as they claim to, then there would be no grounds to object to him. The early Xians, J's own talmidim, were exactly like that, and Chazal DID accept them. The Prushim had no objection to Xianity until it was taken over by pagans and antisemites. So even if you want to compare the Lubavitch Messianics to the early Xians, that's not a reason to reject them. You are not more expert than the Prushim on what is an acceptable hashkafa.

I am very sorry to say, but you sound very close to being a full fledged xtian yourself!! Beware!! you are at a very dangerous zone!!!!

130

 May 07, 2009 at 02:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
Anonymous Says:

The Rambam also says that to assume that one is the moshiach he must gather all the exiled Jews, Fight the milchamos Hashem, and build the Beis Hamikdosh b'mkomo- The Rebbe z"l himself considered the Rambam's opinion binding in these matters.

P.S. If you tell me that he fulfilled ANY of these requirements, especially to say that 770, R"L is the "Beis Rabbeinu sheb'bavel" and that's what the Rambam meant, I think you may be potur min hamitzvos.

P.P.S. The Rambam says neherag because that was what happened with Bar Kokhba.

all the requirements you mention are for "Moshiach Vadai", but we Lubavitchers Believe the Rebbe is "Bechaskas Moshiach" were the Rebbe has ALL the requirements!
Give a look at the Rambam.
as for the "Bais Rabbeinu Shebebovel" the Rebbe himself said that about 770, not that Ch"v it is the Bais Hamikdosh from yerusholiyim, but that it is "Bais Rabbeinu SHEBEBOVEL"

the Reason why Bar Kochba was disqualified from being Moshiach is becuase Neherag, had he not beed killed he would fall in to the category of "moshiach min hamaisim" as stated many times in the gemoro

131

 May 07, 2009 at 02:25 PM yossi Says:

Reply to #127  
Anonymous Says:

Atzmus Umahus areingeshtelt in a guf sounds an awful lot like kfirah to me

I'm sure you are a beautiful Jew.
But if you are not learned in Chassidus (meaning Toras HaChassidus) then your opinon is 100% irrelevent.

132

 May 07, 2009 at 02:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #121  
A Lubavitcher Says:

"Mordechai bidoro, ki'moshe bidoro" is what the medresh says regarding Mordechai. And as its brought down in Zohar: "Ispashtusa di'moshe bichol dora vi'dora".
Your Am-Haratzus, does not make me an Apikorus!!!

That doesn't mean that everything he says is unquestionable!

133

 May 07, 2009 at 03:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Leaving the Dead or Alive issue alone for a moment, isn't Moshiach supposed to be the leader of klal yisroel, not of only one chassidus in klal yisroel?

134

 May 07, 2009 at 04:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #131  
yossi Says:

I'm sure you are a beautiful Jew.
But if you are not learned in Chassidus (meaning Toras HaChassidus) then your opinon is 100% irrelevent.

Ah... another example. If you are not learned in "Chabad Chassidus" (the only version you all call Toras HaChassidus) your opinions is 100% irrelevant.

Thank you, Yossi, for proving our point.

135

 May 07, 2009 at 04:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #120  
Milhouse Says:

The thing is, there are no negatives in the bor al gabei bor. In 100 years nobody has been able to come up with a single valid objection to it. Therefore those who still object to it are motivated by politics; it is perfectly true that the only reason they don't like it is because they hate Chabad. There is no other reason possible. Unless, of course, one is an amhooretz. An amhooretz has the excuse that he can't learn, so he doesn't know that there are no valid arguments against bor al gabei bor, and he is simply trusting those whom he thinks are responsible talmidei chachomim, who tell him that there is some objection. Nu, what can he do, he's an amhooretz. But someone who is not an amhooretz and tells people not to use a Chabad mikveh, is a hater; there is no other possibility.

Ah... another one.

We all know the objections from past gedolim on the Mikvah al Gabei Mikvah of the Rebbe Rashab. It does have some great maalos, and according to Chabad/Lubavitch it is the best. And for you it IS the best for you to use.

But, those well known objections came from other real gedolim.
You are all very quick to answer their objections after they are gone, and call anyone who still has those same objections an Am HaAretz.

The very act of calling other rabbonim who disagree with you Am HaAratzim is in itself Am Haaratzus.

I also know the canned answer. You start off with putting all the objections to the one objection of the Divrey Chaim and claim that since there IS no katafras, that objection is invalid. You all do not even consider anyone else's objections, nor give the objectors a chance to refute your answer to the Divrey Chaim. We all all Am HaAratzim....

And, if we don't want to your YOUR mikvah, we are called "haters" ....
and, those rabbonim who still disagree are not "responsible talmidei chochomim. Only Chabad can be responsible talmidei chachomim.

How sad for us all who are not Chabad.... Oy!

136

 May 07, 2009 at 04:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #126  
Anonymous Says:

even with the truth in front of them people will choose to believe what they want to. the popular lubavich hotline known for its entertainment value said it best : we did not make up that the rebbe is moshiach,the rebbe made it up.

Out of respect for a Holy man whom I held great respect for, I will not voice my thoughts on this out loud.

But, consider that his last few years he said some things which could be interpreted that way.... Consider his illnesses and overall health during that period.

137

 May 07, 2009 at 03:55 PM Anonymous Says:

This is not the first time Menashe Klien has come up with a radical statement...... anyone remember his "pilegesh" stance a few years ago??? That is when he lost his credibility.

138

 May 07, 2009 at 03:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #86  
Anonymous Says:

This letter was forced upon R' Ahron Solevechik ZT"L to sign. At the time he was aged and infirm (he passed away several years later), and was not totally conigtive. When he realized what he had signed, he retracted. I lived in Chicago at the time, and remember the issue. See David Berger's book for the full story.

Not true. I personally spoke to a Rabbi who was there during the signing. He was not forced at all. Just the opposite. He was totally cognitive even though he was not well. To say otherwise is an insult to the Rav, and is showing a lack of respect for all elder Gedolei Torah.

139

 May 07, 2009 at 03:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #101  
Normal Says:

True...but where does it say that it is going to be the Rebbe ZT"L..based on the above Rashi it is Daniel...also,where does it say that Daniel did not die and is still walking around......you guys are nuts, bordering on Avodah Zorah and a disgrace to Lubavitch and the Rebbe

Obviously, it doesn't say it is going to be the Rebbe, zt'l. My point for posting this comment was to prove that it is not apikorsus to say that the Rebbe or any great tzaddik for that matter will come back to become Moshiach. If we believe in technias hameisim, it is not far-fetched by any means to say this. In addition, if we believe that everything in the Torah (written or oral) is emes, it is apikorsus to subtract or add from it. Therefore, believing that Moshiach could not come after techias hameisim is apikorsus. The answer is right there in Sanhedrin 98B.

140

 May 07, 2009 at 03:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #130  
Anonymous Says:

all the requirements you mention are for "Moshiach Vadai", but we Lubavitchers Believe the Rebbe is "Bechaskas Moshiach" were the Rebbe has ALL the requirements!
Give a look at the Rambam.
as for the "Bais Rabbeinu Shebebovel" the Rebbe himself said that about 770, not that Ch"v it is the Bais Hamikdosh from yerusholiyim, but that it is "Bais Rabbeinu SHEBEBOVEL"

the Reason why Bar Kochba was disqualified from being Moshiach is becuase Neherag, had he not beed killed he would fall in to the category of "moshiach min hamaisim" as stated many times in the gemoro

But he also says that (Hilchos M'lachim pereq 11 halachah 4) that if he didn't succeed OR if he was killed: "בידוע שאינו זה שהבטיחה עליו תורה"- please do your homework before you write unintelligent comments.

Furthermore, the Rebbe was not a MELECH mibeis dovid, nor did he force ALL of klal yisroel to follow the Torah (nor close to most of them), nor was he lochem milchamos Hashem. Therefore, it is against the Rambam to claim that he is "B'chezkas Moshiach" as well.

141

 May 07, 2009 at 05:32 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #98  
Can't be Moshiach Says:

What evidence is there that he is ben achar ben from Dovid hamelech?

I can't believe that someone that had no children could me Moshiach which would imply that Bais Dovid died out since there is no ben achar ben.

1. There isn't any. Nor is there likely to be such evidence for ANYONE who arises as Moshiach, until Eliyohu comes and tells us. If someone does all the things that Moshiach is supposed to do, and we don't know for a fact that he's NOT from beis Dovid, then we can assume that he is, unless Eliyohu tells us otherwise.

2. That makes no sense at all. He may well have been ben achar ben from Dovid, but undoubtedly there are many others.

142

 May 07, 2009 at 05:52 PM gregaaron Says:

Reply to #40  
dovid Says:

to all of you who hate lubavitch you can take your learning your black hat and shove it and go to hell the basis of the torah is ahvas yisroel before anything if you dont have ahvas yisroelall your learning is worthless thats why the beis hamikdash got destroyed because of low lifes like you guys no difference chabad satmar etc you guys are disgrase to the world you learn shmiras haloshon and you slander people all you people are full of crap i as person who has no affiliation to lubavicth i can tell you ill my trips around the world they are amazing people start doing teshuva

Yes Dovid, your Ahavas Yisroel is touching.

143

 May 07, 2009 at 06:00 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #115  
ZZZ? why Z is not awake Says:


Re.1) The Rebbe is a Novi. This is documented and beyond dispute - there are piskei din on the matter. Re. nevuah only in Eretz Yisroel - pls site the source.
Re. 2) So? Learn Rambam - there are stages to Geulo. It's like a nurse telling a lady in labour who wants to check-in to the hospital that "it depends on results"...
Re. 3) Is this in Rambam - Hilchos Melochim p. 11 - hidden somewhere between the lines or own your p'shat / chidush? Re. "and then die... " - what happened to t'chiyas hameisim?
Re. 4) The Rebbe *is* the direct paternal descendant of Dovid HaMelech - this is also documented and beyond dispute - please learn.

1. No, it isn't documented, and it is definitely disputed. A nevuah is ALWAYS phrased as "ko omar Hashem", and the Rebbe never ever said such a thing. Reb Yoel who thought that the Rebbe had given a nevuah said he had been mistaken. It was nothing but wishful thinking. Even R Wolpo wrote that the Rebbe deliberately did NOT phrase his prediction as a nevuah, so as not to fall into the halachic category of nevu'ah.

That a person can only become a navi in Eretz Yisroel is in Moed Koton 25a. Also Mechilta at the beginning of Bo, and in Kuzari 2:8-14.

2. The ge'uloh takes time, but until it's complete it's not a ge'uloh at all. The Rebbe rejected the idea that we are in "aschalta dige'ulah". We are still in golus, and in "choshech koful umechupol". And if the person attempting to bring the geulah fails, then he was NOT Moshiach at all.

3. Funnily enough it IS in the Rambam. Not in Hilchos Melochim; the Rambam did write other things, you know. What happened to techiyas hameisim? That may be many generations after Moshiach. Still, it's not a good pircha; if the Rebbe does come back and redeem us, he can remarry and have sons to succeed him.

4. Um, NO. It is NOT documented at all. There is NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE that the Rebbe was a male-line descendant of Dovid Hamelech. Nor has any responsible person ever claimed otherwise. We know the Rebbe's lineage for eight generations; past that we have no idea.

In sum, you seem to be a complete am ho'oretz in these inyonim, and you should take your own advice and learn a Jewish word. In the meantime please confine your commenting to subjects on which you do know something, so you don't give ammunition to the misnagdim.

144

 May 07, 2009 at 05:51 PM Enough Sinas Chinom Says:

Reply to #122  
Ungvarer Rov??? Says:

It is well known that Klein was not even a dogcatcher in Ungvar much less a Rov there.

Well my late grandfather from Ungvar told us differently. Rabbi Klein was a well respected Rav in Ungvar so please don't talk about dogcatchers just because you want to make the Rebbi the Messiah!

Moshiach will come when guys like you stop their Sinas Chinom against all that you don't agree with.

145

 May 07, 2009 at 04:58 PM The proof that The Rav did NOT write a letter Says:

If anyone knows about The Rav, they would know that he directly forbid that during his lifetime, his opinions and rulings be written down. That is why there is so little out there which is directly from his hand. It is being written down now, slowly.
So if anything is written like the claims about the letter, it makes no sense, because he didn't issue things like that. So it is a fraud from the start.

146

 May 07, 2009 at 04:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #125  
Milhouse Says:

Excuse me? Jews believe in resurrection. It's an ikkar in emunah. And the Abarbanel clearly does allow for Moshiach to be from those who will rise from the dead, so you can't rule it out. You don't have to believe that it will happen, but you can't be sure that it won't, and you certainly can't call people goyim for believing it.

The problem with Xianity is NOT that they think J is Moshiach. If a frumme yid, who believes in all the ikkarim, happens to believe that J is Moshiach, he remains a kosher Jew and is doing nothing wrong. There are "Messianic Jews" who CLAIM that this is what they believe, but they're lying; they are orthodox (with a small 'o') Protestants, who only pretend to believe in Yiddishkeit-plus-J-as-Moshiach, in order to entrap unsuspecting Jews. But lu yetzuyor that someone actually did believe as they claim to, then there would be no grounds to object to him. The early Xians, J's own talmidim, were exactly like that, and Chazal DID accept them. The Prushim had no objection to Xianity until it was taken over by pagans and antisemites. So even if you want to compare the Lubavitch Messianics to the early Xians, that's not a reason to reject them. You are not more expert than the Prushim on what is an acceptable hashkafa.

Milhouse... so you are now an expert in Xianity?

I personally know some "Messianic Jews" whom to me are 100$ Xians.

But, they were born and raised Jewish, and were sucked into believing "also" in J.

They observe Orthodox Judaism to the best of their ability. THey are not pretending anything. They really believe they are Jewish in every way. To them they are Jewish Plus... plus J.

So, in your opinion, Milhouse, they are kosher Jews. ???????

Sorry, they are NOT. They are Ovdai Avoda Zara.
They can not be counted in a minyan. One may not say Amen to their brochos.

The Meshichistim need to be very careful. Many of them are so close to the line.... that line..... a few of them may have crossed it. If you meet any of those... try to pull them back.... for the sake of their precious neshomos.

147

 May 07, 2009 at 07:11 PM chabadnik Says:

Reply to #140  
Anonymous Says:

But he also says that (Hilchos M'lachim pereq 11 halachah 4) that if he didn't succeed OR if he was killed: "בידוע שאינו זה שהבטיחה עליו תורה"- please do your homework before you write unintelligent comments.

Furthermore, the Rebbe was not a MELECH mibeis dovid, nor did he force ALL of klal yisroel to follow the Torah (nor close to most of them), nor was he lochem milchamos Hashem. Therefore, it is against the Rambam to claim that he is "B'chezkas Moshiach" as well.

YOU are the one writing unintelligent comments
The rebbe is directly from dovid hamelech and is a nasi=melech
What do you think shluchos is? it's bringing yiddin to Torah and if you want to say all...where does it even say ALL jews???
Your final point- the rebbe actually said that rabbanim should get together and make a psak din that we know who moshiach is and that he is bichezkas moshiach and later the rebbe said he is already moshiach vadai!! The Rebbe is a complete tzaddik! If the rebbe said these things they are absolutely emes!
moshiach should take us out of galus NOW!! and HaShem should clarify all confusions!!!
Bottom line:enough is enough- we all want moshiach...in fact the rambam lists in the thirteen ani maamins we must believe in the coming of moshiach and even if he delays(chas vsholom) we must still await his coming. So lets all just join hands and walk in unison to greet moshiach (and regardless of beliefs)
MOSHIACH NOW!!!

148

 May 07, 2009 at 07:08 PM esther Says:

Reply to #108  
Z Says:

Why The Lubavitche Rebbe is not Mashiach
From the writings of the Rambam

1) Mashiach must to be a Navi (there is only nevuah in eretz Yisrael- the rebbe never was there). He has to be greater a navi than Avraham Avinu and less of a navi than Moshe Rabeinu.
2) Depends on results- Rabbi Akiva thought Bar Kochva was mashiach, but when he died he realized that he was not mashiach, so he moved on.
3) Mashiach will reign like a king and then die, and then his son will take over, and then his son, just like malchus beis david. The rebbe had no sons or daughters.
4) Mashiach must be a decendent from Malchus beis David paternally. The rebbe was a decendent through his father in law. His father in law was the previous rebbe.

the rebbe AND his father in law are decendants from the first lubavitcher rebbe who was a decedant of the maharal who was from bais dovid.

149

 May 07, 2009 at 06:57 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #143  
Milhouse Says:

1. No, it isn't documented, and it is definitely disputed. A nevuah is ALWAYS phrased as "ko omar Hashem", and the Rebbe never ever said such a thing. Reb Yoel who thought that the Rebbe had given a nevuah said he had been mistaken. It was nothing but wishful thinking. Even R Wolpo wrote that the Rebbe deliberately did NOT phrase his prediction as a nevuah, so as not to fall into the halachic category of nevu'ah.

That a person can only become a navi in Eretz Yisroel is in Moed Koton 25a. Also Mechilta at the beginning of Bo, and in Kuzari 2:8-14.

2. The ge'uloh takes time, but until it's complete it's not a ge'uloh at all. The Rebbe rejected the idea that we are in "aschalta dige'ulah". We are still in golus, and in "choshech koful umechupol". And if the person attempting to bring the geulah fails, then he was NOT Moshiach at all.

3. Funnily enough it IS in the Rambam. Not in Hilchos Melochim; the Rambam did write other things, you know. What happened to techiyas hameisim? That may be many generations after Moshiach. Still, it's not a good pircha; if the Rebbe does come back and redeem us, he can remarry and have sons to succeed him.

4. Um, NO. It is NOT documented at all. There is NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE that the Rebbe was a male-line descendant of Dovid Hamelech. Nor has any responsible person ever claimed otherwise. We know the Rebbe's lineage for eight generations; past that we have no idea.

In sum, you seem to be a complete am ho'oretz in these inyonim, and you should take your own advice and learn a Jewish word. In the meantime please confine your commenting to subjects on which you do know something, so you don't give ammunition to the misnagdim.

you don't seem to be very well versed in the rebbes sichos.

150

 May 07, 2009 at 06:53 PM ZR Says:

Reply to #91  
Anonymous Says:

Bor al Gabei Bor was rejected by the Divrei Chaim of Zanz; see Tahros Yom Tov at length regarding the issue.

Sorry, you don't know what your talking about. The divrei Chaim was talkin about a mikvah on two SEPERATE floors with a PIPE conneting the 2 boros which if its FLOWING then can be posul.

But the bor al gabei bor of Chabad is NOT what the Divrei Chaim was talking about.

The Gulot Aliyot (a major work on the Halachot of Mikva), section four, argues that the rule of Katafress Eino Chibbur applies only when the water is flowing on a slope and not when the two pools are stationary. Rav Shlomo Ganzfried (the author of the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch who wrote an authoritative work on Hilchot Mikvaot entitled Lechem Vesimlah) argues (Simlah 98) that Katafress Eino Chibbur does not apply when the two pools that are located one above the other are connected deliberately. The Pnai Yehoshua (in his commentary to Gittin 16a) argues that Katafress Eino Chibbur does not apply when the water that connects the two Mikvaot are from the Mikvaot themselves (as opposed to an external source). Teshuvos Chasam Sofer (Y.D.96) argues that this rule does not apply if there is abundant water that connects the two Mikvaot.

Moreover, it seems that even the Divrei Chaim would accept the Lubavitch Mikva as they are commonly constructed. First, the Divrei Chaim writes (in his introduction to Hilchot Mikvaos number five) that we do not say Katafress Eino Chibbur when the water has had its status as Mayim Sheuvim mitigated to a Rabbinic level disqualification by the process of Hamshacha. In fact, the Rash in his commentary to the Mishna (Mikvaot 6:8) states that we do not say Katafress Eino Chibbur if the water is disqualified only on a Rabbinic level. Remeber, that the Hamshacha process is a standard feature of most Mikvaos today.
Furthermore, when the two Mikvaos lie directly upon each other with only the separation of a floor, even the Divrei Chaim agrees that the Mikva is Kosher. This is because in this situation we do not have two Mikvaos that need to be connected. Rather, we regard the two pools conceptually as one large pool.

Indeed, four major authorities on Hilchot Mikvaos accept this type of Mikva without qualification - Rav Meir Arik (Teshuvot Imrei Yosher 2:73), Rav Moshe Feinstein (Teshuvot Igrot Moshe Y.D. 3:65) the Satmar Rav (Teshuvot Divrei Yoel Y.D. 80), and Dayan Weisz (Teshuvot Minchat Yitzchak 2:92). In practice, Lubavitch Mikvaos are created in this manner.

151

 May 07, 2009 at 06:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #138  
Anonymous Says:

Not true. I personally spoke to a Rabbi who was there during the signing. He was not forced at all. Just the opposite. He was totally cognitive even though he was not well. To say otherwise is an insult to the Rav, and is showing a lack of respect for all elder Gedolei Torah.

I learned with a close relative of RAS ztz"l.

He was coerced and his family was livid about it.

152

 May 07, 2009 at 06:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #146  
Anonymous Says:

Milhouse... so you are now an expert in Xianity?

I personally know some "Messianic Jews" whom to me are 100$ Xians.

But, they were born and raised Jewish, and were sucked into believing "also" in J.

They observe Orthodox Judaism to the best of their ability. THey are not pretending anything. They really believe they are Jewish in every way. To them they are Jewish Plus... plus J.

So, in your opinion, Milhouse, they are kosher Jews. ???????

Sorry, they are NOT. They are Ovdai Avoda Zara.
They can not be counted in a minyan. One may not say Amen to their brochos.

The Meshichistim need to be very careful. Many of them are so close to the line.... that line..... a few of them may have crossed it. If you meet any of those... try to pull them back.... for the sake of their precious neshomos.

well if you are a chossid of the lubavitcher rebbe you've got to believe he's moshiach since he told us that clearly...maybe not alive, but him being moshiach there is no question

153

 May 07, 2009 at 06:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #55  
Anonymous Says:

Could you cite these "many times" in the Gemoro. I don't know of any.

Rav states:
"If Moshiach will come from the living, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh (i.e.Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi), if he comes from the dead, it will be Daniel (the Prophet)..."

Sanhedrin 98:B

Rashi restates Rav's position as follows:
"This means, that if Moshiach were to come from those who are living now, it will be Rabeinu HaKadosh…but if (Moshiach) is to come from those who have died already, it will be 'Daniel Ish Chamudos'..."

Rashi-"Ee Min Chaya, Hu Kegon-Rabainu HaKadosh" 98:B ”

See also the Abarbanel, and MANY MANY others!

154

 May 07, 2009 at 06:17 PM Not the melochim? Says:

Reply to #141  
Milhouse Says:

1. There isn't any. Nor is there likely to be such evidence for ANYONE who arises as Moshiach, until Eliyohu comes and tells us. If someone does all the things that Moshiach is supposed to do, and we don't know for a fact that he's NOT from beis Dovid, then we can assume that he is, unless Eliyohu tells us otherwise.

2. That makes no sense at all. He may well have been ben achar ben from Dovid, but undoubtedly there are many others.

It makes no sense that the line of melucha would terminate with melech Hamoshiach. It is certainly possible that there are other ben achar bens but to say that the main one in the line of Melochim is broken is ridiculous.

155

 May 07, 2009 at 07:31 PM ZR Says:

Reply to #135  
Anonymous Says:

Ah... another one.

We all know the objections from past gedolim on the Mikvah al Gabei Mikvah of the Rebbe Rashab. It does have some great maalos, and according to Chabad/Lubavitch it is the best. And for you it IS the best for you to use.

But, those well known objections came from other real gedolim.
You are all very quick to answer their objections after they are gone, and call anyone who still has those same objections an Am HaAretz.

The very act of calling other rabbonim who disagree with you Am HaAratzim is in itself Am Haaratzus.

I also know the canned answer. You start off with putting all the objections to the one objection of the Divrey Chaim and claim that since there IS no katafras, that objection is invalid. You all do not even consider anyone else's objections, nor give the objectors a chance to refute your answer to the Divrey Chaim. We all all Am HaAratzim....

And, if we don't want to your YOUR mikvah, we are called "haters" ....
and, those rabbonim who still disagree are not "responsible talmidei chochomim. Only Chabad can be responsible talmidei chachomim.

How sad for us all who are not Chabad.... Oy!

"I also know the canned answer. You start off with putting all the objections to the one objection of the Divrey Chaim and claim that since there IS no katafras, that objection is invalid. You all do not even consider anyone else's objections, nor give the objectors a chance to refute your answer to the Divrey Chaim. We all all Am HaAratzim...."

How can we “give the objectors a chance to refute your answer to the Divrey Chaim” if you haven’t provided an answer?????

I keep reading “there are many Gedolim who don’t like the bor al gabei bor” yet fail to provide a single name other than the alleged Divrei Chaim.

And most people on VIN debating the Mikvah issue are not familiar with the basic terms of hilchos mikvah; Hashoko and Zeria, Zochlin etc. I still waiting for someone to present a halachic analysis on the alleged problems of bor al gabei bor.

156

 May 07, 2009 at 07:30 PM chaim Says:

Reply to #144  
Enough Sinas Chinom Says:

Well my late grandfather from Ungvar told us differently. Rabbi Klein was a well respected Rav in Ungvar so please don't talk about dogcatchers just because you want to make the Rebbi the Messiah!

Moshiach will come when guys like you stop their Sinas Chinom against all that you don't agree with.

he was not,,,,,,,,,,,,,,he was a modern buchor with a bombshell wife that dumped him
rav klein is not known to be nice man

157

 May 07, 2009 at 08:18 PM yaakov Says:

as a chabad chossid i agree with him i just dont understand why none of the godolim take a stand against neturai kartah or more importent things

158

 May 07, 2009 at 07:54 PM Rebbe's yichus Says:

Reply to #143  
Milhouse Says:

1. No, it isn't documented, and it is definitely disputed. A nevuah is ALWAYS phrased as "ko omar Hashem", and the Rebbe never ever said such a thing. Reb Yoel who thought that the Rebbe had given a nevuah said he had been mistaken. It was nothing but wishful thinking. Even R Wolpo wrote that the Rebbe deliberately did NOT phrase his prediction as a nevuah, so as not to fall into the halachic category of nevu'ah.

That a person can only become a navi in Eretz Yisroel is in Moed Koton 25a. Also Mechilta at the beginning of Bo, and in Kuzari 2:8-14.

2. The ge'uloh takes time, but until it's complete it's not a ge'uloh at all. The Rebbe rejected the idea that we are in "aschalta dige'ulah". We are still in golus, and in "choshech koful umechupol". And if the person attempting to bring the geulah fails, then he was NOT Moshiach at all.

3. Funnily enough it IS in the Rambam. Not in Hilchos Melochim; the Rambam did write other things, you know. What happened to techiyas hameisim? That may be many generations after Moshiach. Still, it's not a good pircha; if the Rebbe does come back and redeem us, he can remarry and have sons to succeed him.

4. Um, NO. It is NOT documented at all. There is NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE that the Rebbe was a male-line descendant of Dovid Hamelech. Nor has any responsible person ever claimed otherwise. We know the Rebbe's lineage for eight generations; past that we have no idea.

In sum, you seem to be a complete am ho'oretz in these inyonim, and you should take your own advice and learn a Jewish word. In the meantime please confine your commenting to subjects on which you do know something, so you don't give ammunition to the misnagdim.

Tayere Yid, please open up your HaYom Yom p. 9 (the sefer that kinderlach in your neighbourhood cheider chabad learn starting from age of 6) and read the beginning of the hakdomoh. Read it aloud mit a niggun if that helps. Then you will know as the words will surely enter the heart... The Rebbe is a direct descendent of Alter Rebbe who is a direct descendent of the Maharal of Prague who is in turn a direct descendent of Dovid haMelech.

Regarding the Rebbe's n'vuo - ok dispute it. I've seen it with my own eyes. If you want to farbreng on the subject - by all means. Nu? I don't unfortunately have the time to learn R' Volpo's sforim - I can barely manage my chitas being an am ho'oretz and all... But wasn't there an actual *real* psak din that *documented* that the Rebbe is a Novi?

I agree with you on one thing - I do have to increase in limud and frankly posting these shtusim here is not helping and probably is bitul Toiro r''l. You can make your own conclusions for yourself of course.

As to giving ammo to misnagdim - show me an emeser misnagid and I'll worry about that. I've seen many who called themselves misnagdim and turned out to be mishigoyim...

Brocho vehatzlocho

159

 May 07, 2009 at 07:53 PM ZR Says:

Reply to #135  
Anonymous Says:

Ah... another one.

We all know the objections from past gedolim on the Mikvah al Gabei Mikvah of the Rebbe Rashab. It does have some great maalos, and according to Chabad/Lubavitch it is the best. And for you it IS the best for you to use.

But, those well known objections came from other real gedolim.
You are all very quick to answer their objections after they are gone, and call anyone who still has those same objections an Am HaAretz.

The very act of calling other rabbonim who disagree with you Am HaAratzim is in itself Am Haaratzus.

I also know the canned answer. You start off with putting all the objections to the one objection of the Divrey Chaim and claim that since there IS no katafras, that objection is invalid. You all do not even consider anyone else's objections, nor give the objectors a chance to refute your answer to the Divrey Chaim. We all all Am HaAratzim....

And, if we don't want to your YOUR mikvah, we are called "haters" ....
and, those rabbonim who still disagree are not "responsible talmidei chochomim. Only Chabad can be responsible talmidei chachomim.

How sad for us all who are not Chabad.... Oy!

"We all know the objections from past gedolim on the Mikvah al Gabei Mikvah of the Rebbe Rashab"

Typical.

If said objections are so famous why can't you provide us with a name. Preferably someone on the level (and generation) of R' Moshe Feinstein (and many other Poskim), who unequivocally praised the bor al gabei bor design.

You can't. Because such said objections of Gedolim of the previous generation don't exist.

160

 May 07, 2009 at 07:38 PM esther Says:

Reply to #125  
Milhouse Says:

Excuse me? Jews believe in resurrection. It's an ikkar in emunah. And the Abarbanel clearly does allow for Moshiach to be from those who will rise from the dead, so you can't rule it out. You don't have to believe that it will happen, but you can't be sure that it won't, and you certainly can't call people goyim for believing it.

The problem with Xianity is NOT that they think J is Moshiach. If a frumme yid, who believes in all the ikkarim, happens to believe that J is Moshiach, he remains a kosher Jew and is doing nothing wrong. There are "Messianic Jews" who CLAIM that this is what they believe, but they're lying; they are orthodox (with a small 'o') Protestants, who only pretend to believe in Yiddishkeit-plus-J-as-Moshiach, in order to entrap unsuspecting Jews. But lu yetzuyor that someone actually did believe as they claim to, then there would be no grounds to object to him. The early Xians, J's own talmidim, were exactly like that, and Chazal DID accept them. The Prushim had no objection to Xianity until it was taken over by pagans and antisemites. So even if you want to compare the Lubavitch Messianics to the early Xians, that's not a reason to reject them. You are not more expert than the Prushim on what is an acceptable hashkafa.

no,no,no,excuse me!if what you say is true,that chazal accepted yushka's students, how could that possibly be the case now?once xianity morphed into a totally different religion,wouldn't any type of belief in jc be avodah zora?comparing mishichistin to early xianity,that's not a good thing OK.you don't have to be any kind of chacham to get that.

161

 May 07, 2009 at 09:08 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #135  
Anonymous Says:

Ah... another one.

We all know the objections from past gedolim on the Mikvah al Gabei Mikvah of the Rebbe Rashab. It does have some great maalos, and according to Chabad/Lubavitch it is the best. And for you it IS the best for you to use.

But, those well known objections came from other real gedolim.
You are all very quick to answer their objections after they are gone, and call anyone who still has those same objections an Am HaAretz.

The very act of calling other rabbonim who disagree with you Am HaAratzim is in itself Am Haaratzus.

I also know the canned answer. You start off with putting all the objections to the one objection of the Divrey Chaim and claim that since there IS no katafras, that objection is invalid. You all do not even consider anyone else's objections, nor give the objectors a chance to refute your answer to the Divrey Chaim. We all all Am HaAratzim....

And, if we don't want to your YOUR mikvah, we are called "haters" ....
and, those rabbonim who still disagree are not "responsible talmidei chochomim. Only Chabad can be responsible talmidei chachomim.

How sad for us all who are not Chabad.... Oy!

we don't have any objection if you want to use Hashaka or Zeriah. We believe Bor Al Gabei Bor is halachicly preferable but we don't pasul you for having your opinion. however, you guys out there bash us for using Bor Al Gabei Bor and claim that it's posul. You are the ones that are lacking tolerance for your fellow yidden. We in Lubavitch are not the ones lacking tolerance for our fellow yidden who don't use Bor Al Gabei Bor.

To prove it, I have never heard in Chabad people not want to do a shidduch with a Tsugekuminer to Chabad because his parents used a hashaka mikvah. However, there are people out there who think that Lubavitch are not keeping Taharas Hamishpacha properly because they use Bor Al Gabei Bor.

Everyone is entitle to their own derech.

162

 May 07, 2009 at 10:30 PM The sad thing is Says:

Reply to #95  
Litvaker Says:

I think it's time for us all to learn the concepts and halochos of Moshiach so that we can draw some sort of educated conclusion.

Although I am not a fan of all chasidim in general including Lubavitch/ Satmar/ Belz/etc. being that my family tree goes back to Vilna and we are current talmidim of Ponovezh, It's obvious to me that the majority of posters on this site have no clue of what they are talking about being that they have never once in their lives learnt Hilchos Beis Habchiro.

Pre conceived notions about Chasidim or chabad or moshiach will not help you draw an honest conclusion.

I have spent 6 months in a small Lakewood Kollel researching this very subject together with my Chavrusa and I must tell you that the average Frum/Yeshivish/Litvish guy has no clue about the subject matter.

To make a long story short we have come to the conclusion that the Lubavitcher Rebbe could still be Moshiach.

We have not delved into the subject of Lo Meis like we see by Yaacov Avinu or Moshe Rabbeinu. We were strictly focusing on the Moshiach issue.

P.S. When the Rambam says Neherag he is making a clear distinction between the Amoroim in Sanhedrin Daf Tzadik Ches who are of the opinion that Moshiach could be from those who passed on and Bar Kochva who was killed.

Here is what is sad about this whole discussion: most people reading and posting here would agree that we live in very unsettling times. Anywhere you look things are unraveling. The message of the Rebbe in 1991-1992 was not whether he was Moshiach or not. It WAS that the time of Moshiach which KLAL YISROEL has been hoping for for so long is finally at hand, and we need to prepare ourselves (with an Avoda Pnimis - to improve ourselves spiritually) for this.

Chevra, we are all in the same boat. The Rebbe gave this message, whether you believe it was Nevuah, or that you simply value the words of a Tzadik, you will take it seriously. This message was for US, for OUR benefit, so that we should not be caught unawares, "in our pajamas," so to speak.

Sadly, at such a crucial time, this crucial message has been displaced by a noisy debate on whether the Rebbe is the Moshiach.

Prepare yourself for Moshiach and get ready to go of Golus. Getting ready doesn't require packing a suitcase, it means most importantly preparing yourself b'ruchniyus. Hayom Lasosam, ulemochor lekabel s'chorom. Learn Torah Lishmo, practice true ahavas yisroel, refine you midos in a TRUE way, engage in Gemilas Chasadim without selfish motives, tear down every wall of Sina & Kina.

Is everyone here only interested in endless debate, or are there some here who want to comment and relate to the divrei emes written in this post?

163

 May 07, 2009 at 10:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #115  
ZZZ? why Z is not awake Says:


Re.1) The Rebbe is a Novi. This is documented and beyond dispute - there are piskei din on the matter. Re. nevuah only in Eretz Yisroel - pls site the source.
Re. 2) So? Learn Rambam - there are stages to Geulo. It's like a nurse telling a lady in labour who wants to check-in to the hospital that "it depends on results"...
Re. 3) Is this in Rambam - Hilchos Melochim p. 11 - hidden somewhere between the lines or own your p'shat / chidush? Re. "and then die... " - what happened to t'chiyas hameisim?
Re. 4) The Rebbe *is* the direct paternal descendant of Dovid HaMelech - this is also documented and beyond dispute - please learn.

the rebbe and the rebitzin were related

164

 May 07, 2009 at 10:09 PM Refreshing Says:

Reply to #95  
Litvaker Says:

I think it's time for us all to learn the concepts and halochos of Moshiach so that we can draw some sort of educated conclusion.

Although I am not a fan of all chasidim in general including Lubavitch/ Satmar/ Belz/etc. being that my family tree goes back to Vilna and we are current talmidim of Ponovezh, It's obvious to me that the majority of posters on this site have no clue of what they are talking about being that they have never once in their lives learnt Hilchos Beis Habchiro.

Pre conceived notions about Chasidim or chabad or moshiach will not help you draw an honest conclusion.

I have spent 6 months in a small Lakewood Kollel researching this very subject together with my Chavrusa and I must tell you that the average Frum/Yeshivish/Litvish guy has no clue about the subject matter.

To make a long story short we have come to the conclusion that the Lubavitcher Rebbe could still be Moshiach.

We have not delved into the subject of Lo Meis like we see by Yaacov Avinu or Moshe Rabbeinu. We were strictly focusing on the Moshiach issue.

P.S. When the Rambam says Neherag he is making a clear distinction between the Amoroim in Sanhedrin Daf Tzadik Ches who are of the opinion that Moshiach could be from those who passed on and Bar Kochva who was killed.

I have not seen one person respond to what "Litvaker" wrote. He sounds genuine. Reb Litvaker, please share more of your research. You sound objective and level headed.

165

 May 07, 2009 at 10:09 PM Refreshing Says:

Reply to #95  
Litvaker Says:

I think it's time for us all to learn the concepts and halochos of Moshiach so that we can draw some sort of educated conclusion.

Although I am not a fan of all chasidim in general including Lubavitch/ Satmar/ Belz/etc. being that my family tree goes back to Vilna and we are current talmidim of Ponovezh, It's obvious to me that the majority of posters on this site have no clue of what they are talking about being that they have never once in their lives learnt Hilchos Beis Habchiro.

Pre conceived notions about Chasidim or chabad or moshiach will not help you draw an honest conclusion.

I have spent 6 months in a small Lakewood Kollel researching this very subject together with my Chavrusa and I must tell you that the average Frum/Yeshivish/Litvish guy has no clue about the subject matter.

To make a long story short we have come to the conclusion that the Lubavitcher Rebbe could still be Moshiach.

We have not delved into the subject of Lo Meis like we see by Yaacov Avinu or Moshe Rabbeinu. We were strictly focusing on the Moshiach issue.

P.S. When the Rambam says Neherag he is making a clear distinction between the Amoroim in Sanhedrin Daf Tzadik Ches who are of the opinion that Moshiach could be from those who passed on and Bar Kochva who was killed.

I have not seen one person respond to what "Litvaker" wrote. He sounds genuine. Reb Litvaker, please share more of your research. You sound objective and level headed.

166

 May 08, 2009 at 01:04 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #127  
Anonymous Says:

Atzmus Umahus areingeshtelt in a guf sounds an awful lot like kfirah to me

I don't care what it sounds like to you, the fact is that the Rebbe said it. Therefore you have no choice but to accept that it is NOT kefirah. Otherwise you find yourself in a very sticky place: "be careful of their coal that you not be burned, for their bite is that of a fox, and their sting is that of a scorpion, and their hiss is that of a snake, and all their words are like fiery coals."

167

 May 08, 2009 at 01:05 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #129  
Anonymous Says:

I am very sorry to say, but you sound very close to being a full fledged xtian yourself!! Beware!! you are at a very dangerous zone!!!!

You obviously know nothing at all about Xianity. That's a good thing, better you shouldn't know, but since it's so you shouldn't comment on it.

168

 May 08, 2009 at 01:00 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #123  
Boruch Says:

If Rabbi Klein really believes that Mishichistin are apikursim, then I wonder why he doesn't also write off rashi as an apikores. Rashi says that Yaakov avinu loy meis means mamash in a guf (see taanis page 5). One must conclude that Rashi, the abarbanel etc. are all apikursim. Misguided and wacked out, the meshichistim may be, but APIKURSIM!? Give me a break.

Read the teshuva. He's perfectly well aware of that Rashi and addresses it. We know that Yaacov lo meis because there's a posuk that says so; if we had such a posuk about the Rebbe then it would be OK to say the same thing about him too.

169

 May 08, 2009 at 12:58 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #118  
Find the Facts Says:

The Rebbe is Ben Achar ben of Dovid Hamelech.

It's possible. But there's no evidence for it.

170

 May 08, 2009 at 12:57 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #117  
Anonymous Says:

FYI: R' Akiva, along with the rest of the Sanhedrin, rejected Bar Kokhba when he murdered one of the Sanhedrin for disagreeing with him. He died immediately after in battle because he lost the support of the Sanhedrin.

That's one version of the story. But it's not the version the Rambam had. The Rambam holds that Bar Kochva was the real deal, and the chachomim continued to support him right until he was killed by the Romans. And that they were RIGHT to do so, even though it turned out differently. And that if another Bar Kochva were to arise the next day, they would have been obligated al pi din to support him too.

171

 May 08, 2009 at 12:54 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #109  
Anonymous Says:

Actually, I think it was his brother from Chicago, but that is not the whole story. He later said that that was not what he was told he was signing. He said that moshiach must come from the living and his sole intent was that Chabad should not be considered apikorsim. Whether that is true or not (that they're not apikorsim)- ich veis nit

You're lying. Read what was posted above, about the circumstances of the signing. He read it carefully several times and signed it.

172

 May 08, 2009 at 12:53 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #106  
Anonymous Says:

If you think that the late Rebbe's statements are comparable to divrei amram, you certainly are an apikorus

Says who?

173

 May 08, 2009 at 12:46 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #91  
Anonymous Says:

Bor al Gabei Bor was rejected by the Divrei Chaim of Zanz; see Tahros Yom Tov at length regarding the issue.

That is a complete fabrication. The LR's letter to the Helmitzer about this is published; he was shocked that the Helmitzer would perpetrate such a falsehood. The bor al gabei bor is fully compatible with the Divrei Chaim; Lubavitch hold very much of the Divrei Chayim and would not do something against his psak.

174

 May 08, 2009 at 12:43 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #87  
Jack Says:

And may I add, nevuah was given to shotim and ketanim.

The Rambam wrote that it would return. And the baalei haTosfos refers to a navi in their times.

175

 May 08, 2009 at 12:42 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #86  
Anonymous Says:

This letter was forced upon R' Ahron Solevechik ZT"L to sign. At the time he was aged and infirm (he passed away several years later), and was not totally conigtive. When he realized what he had signed, he retracted. I lived in Chicago at the time, and remember the issue. See David Berger's book for the full story.

What a chutzpah. He was physically infirm but in full control of his mental faculties. Read the testimony of R Hershel Greenberg, that was posted above. The letter was drawn up according to the views R Aharon had expressed in conversation, then he read the letter carefully several times and said he would sign it. The Jewish Press checked with him before printing it and verified that he had signed it.

Nor did he retract a word of it; the statement he put out the next week said exactly the same thing as the first one. It merely made clear that though it was perfectly OK to hold these beliefs he didn't personally share them.

Berger is a notorious liar and fabricator. He can't stand the fact that R Aharon made this statement, so he decided to shame him publicly in this fashion.

176

 May 08, 2009 at 12:35 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #75  
Anonymous Says:

This so called "expert" Milhaus who claims to know everything, obviously does not know bupkis about chasidus or Belz; as a no=longer active member of the Belzer, I can tell you that we do NOT consider Rav Yissocher (Rokeach) to be Moishiach...while some believed back in Europe that his grandfather (called the "Wonder Rebbe") might be Moishiach that was never a widespread belief. Bottom line: The Belz are not Moishichists, even though we have great love and respect for the rebbe.

Because your rebbe is not a rebbe. As you say, his grandfather was something else, and his real chassidim DID believe he would be Moshiach. And he wasn't the only one. The early chassidic writings are full of this, about the Baal Shem Tov (even after his passing!), the Noam Elimelech, the Yismach Moshe, etc.

177

 May 08, 2009 at 12:33 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #69  
Brisker Rov Says:

The Brisker Rov commented on a sicha that he had seen "der mentch tracht az eir is Moshiach". This is apparently the tradition within Lubavitch.

Rabbi Hirschprung's z"l comments need to be understood in the context of the fact that he was a Lubavitcher.

This is certainly not a tradition in Lubavitch. In Lubavitch there are no stories about him at all; he's not mentioned. He didn't like Lubavitchers and Lubavitchers returned the compliment. In Lubavitch the only Brisker Rov who's mentioned much is R Chayim, who had respect for Lubavitch and enjoyed their respect in return.

What difference does it make whether R Hirschprung was a Lubavitcher? Was he or was he not a world-class posek? You must admit that he was. And he paskened that "there is no shadow of a question in halacha" about the permissibility of the meshichist beliefs. They have enough sources to rely on that they're entitled to their position, even if he himself did not share it. You saw the psak for yourself. So what more have you to say?

178

 May 08, 2009 at 01:07 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #130  
Anonymous Says:

all the requirements you mention are for "Moshiach Vadai", but we Lubavitchers Believe the Rebbe is "Bechaskas Moshiach" were the Rebbe has ALL the requirements!
Give a look at the Rambam.
as for the "Bais Rabbeinu Shebebovel" the Rebbe himself said that about 770, not that Ch"v it is the Bais Hamikdosh from yerusholiyim, but that it is "Bais Rabbeinu SHEBEBOVEL"

the Reason why Bar Kochba was disqualified from being Moshiach is becuase Neherag, had he not beed killed he would fall in to the category of "moshiach min hamaisim" as stated many times in the gemoro

The Rebbe did not fulfill even the requirements for bechezkas moshiach. It was always wishful thinking and twisted pshetlach. The best you can say is that he might come back to life and THEN fulfill those requirements.

179

 May 08, 2009 at 01:07 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #132  
Anonymous Says:

That doesn't mean that everything he says is unquestionable!

Of course not. Feel free to question and disagree. But what you can NOT do is call it kefirah.

180

 May 08, 2009 at 01:11 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #133  
Anonymous Says:

Leaving the Dead or Alive issue alone for a moment, isn't Moshiach supposed to be the leader of klal yisroel, not of only one chassidus in klal yisroel?

Lubavitchers believe that he was the leader of klal yisroel, it's just that many of that klal didn't know it.

The Rebbe himself said this REPEATEDLY about his father-in-law, so there's no escaping it. He ALWAYS referred to his father-in-law as "nosi hador". And since he was a world-class gaon, and was perfectly aware of all the arguments that could be made against it, and he still said it, who can challenge it?

Not that you have to AGREE with it, but you can't condemn it.

181

 May 08, 2009 at 01:14 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #135  
Anonymous Says:

Ah... another one.

We all know the objections from past gedolim on the Mikvah al Gabei Mikvah of the Rebbe Rashab. It does have some great maalos, and according to Chabad/Lubavitch it is the best. And for you it IS the best for you to use.

But, those well known objections came from other real gedolim.
You are all very quick to answer their objections after they are gone, and call anyone who still has those same objections an Am HaAretz.

The very act of calling other rabbonim who disagree with you Am HaAratzim is in itself Am Haaratzus.

I also know the canned answer. You start off with putting all the objections to the one objection of the Divrey Chaim and claim that since there IS no katafras, that objection is invalid. You all do not even consider anyone else's objections, nor give the objectors a chance to refute your answer to the Divrey Chaim. We all all Am HaAratzim....

And, if we don't want to your YOUR mikvah, we are called "haters" ....
and, those rabbonim who still disagree are not "responsible talmidei chochomim. Only Chabad can be responsible talmidei chachomim.

How sad for us all who are not Chabad.... Oy!

NO past gedolim had any objections to it. It's all hateful lies. The Divrei Chayim did not object to it, and nor did any other real gedolim. The only objections came from amei ho'oretz and haters. If you disagree, why not tell us some of these so-called valid objections. You can't because they don't exist.

182

 May 08, 2009 at 01:29 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #146  
Anonymous Says:

Milhouse... so you are now an expert in Xianity?

I personally know some "Messianic Jews" whom to me are 100$ Xians.

But, they were born and raised Jewish, and were sucked into believing "also" in J.

They observe Orthodox Judaism to the best of their ability. THey are not pretending anything. They really believe they are Jewish in every way. To them they are Jewish Plus... plus J.

So, in your opinion, Milhouse, they are kosher Jews. ???????

Sorry, they are NOT. They are Ovdai Avoda Zara.
They can not be counted in a minyan. One may not say Amen to their brochos.

The Meshichistim need to be very careful. Many of them are so close to the line.... that line..... a few of them may have crossed it. If you meet any of those... try to pull them back.... for the sake of their precious neshomos.

I'll bet I'm more of an expert than you are.

It's possible that there are a handful of people out there who really are believing Orthodox Jews who happen also to believe that J was/is Moshiach. In fact I know of such a case about 20 years ago. R Bleich, who is certainly not a Lubavitcher, paskened that she was a kosher Jew. Obviously she could not be counted in a minyan! But one could certainly say amen after her brochos.

From your description of your acquaintances it's impossible to tell anything at all. The fact that you don't say anything about their beliefs, and the very important differences between Judaism and Xianity, leads me to believe that you know nothing about the subject, and don't even know what to ask them. I'd bet a fair amount that your acquaintances are orthodox Protestants, and therefore not at all Jewish in their beliefs, regardless of their Jewish parentage.

However, I would not be so sure that they are ovdei avodah zarah. I will take an educated guess that they are Baptists, and it's not clear to me what is the halachic status of that denomination. (I know approximately *what* they believe, I'm just not sure of the halacha.) Not all Xians are the same.

183

 May 08, 2009 at 01:37 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #147  
chabadnik Says:

YOU are the one writing unintelligent comments
The rebbe is directly from dovid hamelech and is a nasi=melech
What do you think shluchos is? it's bringing yiddin to Torah and if you want to say all...where does it even say ALL jews???
Your final point- the rebbe actually said that rabbanim should get together and make a psak din that we know who moshiach is and that he is bichezkas moshiach and later the rebbe said he is already moshiach vadai!! The Rebbe is a complete tzaddik! If the rebbe said these things they are absolutely emes!
moshiach should take us out of galus NOW!! and HaShem should clarify all confusions!!!
Bottom line:enough is enough- we all want moshiach...in fact the rambam lists in the thirteen ani maamins we must believe in the coming of moshiach and even if he delays(chas vsholom) we must still await his coming. So lets all just join hands and walk in unison to greet moshiach (and regardless of beliefs)
MOSHIACH NOW!!!

You GUESS that the Rebbe is directly from Dovid Hamelech. You don't know it for a fact.

For all the dreying, he did NOT have the din of a melech. Had the Rebbetzin and Marc Gurary both survived the Rebbe, he would have had to give her chalitzah, just as the Lev Simcha did to the Beis Yisroel's rebbetzin.

Go learn the Rambam. Veyochof es KOL YISROEL lelech boh. He will FORCE (not just persuade) ALL ISRAEL to go in the Torah.

The Rebbe never said he was moshiach at all, let alone moshiach vadai! And just because someone is a tzadik doesn't mean everything they say is "absolutely emes". A tzadik can be mistaken just like anyone else.

Instead of joining hands and singing kumbaya, why don't you sit down and learn, not "INYONEI ge'uloh umoshiach" but HILCHOS moshiach?

184

 May 08, 2009 at 01:40 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #148  
esther Says:

the rebbe AND his father in law are decendants from the first lubavitcher rebbe who was a decedant of the maharal who was from bais dovid.

Bzzzt. Neither the previous Rebbe NOR this Rebbe were descended in the male line from the Alter Rebbe. There is no reason to suppose that they go back to the Maharal. And even if they did, there is NO evidence that the Maharal goes back to Dovid. That is a baseless legend.

The truth is we have no idea of the Rebbe's yichus more than eight generations back. It's perfectly POSSIBLE that he was ben-achar-ben from Dovid. But it's also possible that he wasn't.

185

 May 08, 2009 at 01:43 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #151  
Anonymous Says:

I learned with a close relative of RAS ztz"l.

He was coerced and his family was livid about it.

You've seen R Hershel Greenberg's testimony. He was THERE and saw what happened. Are you calling him a liar, based on a rumour you heard third-hand?

186

 May 08, 2009 at 01:44 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #152  
Anonymous Says:

well if you are a chossid of the lubavitcher rebbe you've got to believe he's moshiach since he told us that clearly...maybe not alive, but him being moshiach there is no question

No, he didn't. Search as you might through the sichos and reshimos and tapes, you will not find anywhere a simple statement "I am Moshiach". And you will find plenty indicating that he had no idea whether he was or wasn't.

187

 May 08, 2009 at 01:47 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #154  
Not the melochim? Says:

It makes no sense that the line of melucha would terminate with melech Hamoshiach. It is certainly possible that there are other ben achar bens but to say that the main one in the line of Melochim is broken is ridiculous.

That's not a proof. It's your own aesthetic sense of what "feels" right; that's not how we decide halochos. It's entirely possible that Moshiach should come, die without issue, and be succeeded by another relative. It's also possible that after he comes he can remarry and have children.

None of this means that the Rebbe WILL be Moshiach; it just means you can't rule it out for this reason.

188

 May 08, 2009 at 01:51 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #158  
Rebbe's yichus Says:

Tayere Yid, please open up your HaYom Yom p. 9 (the sefer that kinderlach in your neighbourhood cheider chabad learn starting from age of 6) and read the beginning of the hakdomoh. Read it aloud mit a niggun if that helps. Then you will know as the words will surely enter the heart... The Rebbe is a direct descendent of Alter Rebbe who is a direct descendent of the Maharal of Prague who is in turn a direct descendent of Dovid haMelech.

Regarding the Rebbe's n'vuo - ok dispute it. I've seen it with my own eyes. If you want to farbreng on the subject - by all means. Nu? I don't unfortunately have the time to learn R' Volpo's sforim - I can barely manage my chitas being an am ho'oretz and all... But wasn't there an actual *real* psak din that *documented* that the Rebbe is a Novi?

I agree with you on one thing - I do have to increase in limud and frankly posting these shtusim here is not helping and probably is bitul Toiro r''l. You can make your own conclusions for yourself of course.

As to giving ammo to misnagdim - show me an emeser misnagid and I'll worry about that. I've seen many who called themselves misnagdim and turned out to be mishigoyim...

Brocho vehatzlocho

Why don't YOU look it up. The Rebbe is NOT ben-achar-ben from the Alter Rebbe. There is no evidence that he is from the Maharal. And there is no evidence at all that the Maharal is from Dovid.

189

 May 08, 2009 at 01:54 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #160  
esther Says:

no,no,no,excuse me!if what you say is true,that chazal accepted yushka's students, how could that possibly be the case now?once xianity morphed into a totally different religion,wouldn't any type of belief in jc be avodah zora?comparing mishichistin to early xianity,that's not a good thing OK.you don't have to be any kind of chacham to get that.

You're not making any sense. Believing that J was moshiach is no more wrong now than it was then. Chazal accepted it as an OK belief then; therefore it's still an OK belief. An incredibly stupid one, perhaps, but permitted. What happened to Xianity since that time is irrelevant.

190

 May 08, 2009 at 01:55 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #163  
Anonymous Says:

the rebbe and the rebitzin were related

And therefore?

191

 May 08, 2009 at 05:47 AM Anonymous Says:

I am wondering something here, if y'all believe in "techias hamaisim," then according to YOU the Lubavitcher Rebbe will be alive once again, one way or another.

This continuing attack on Lubavitch started at its inception. So put down all of your lifted noses and go on being a Jew and stop pretending that this argument began in 1994.

192

 May 08, 2009 at 05:33 AM sherlock choloimes Says:

Reply to #188  
Milhouse Says:

Why don't YOU look it up. The Rebbe is NOT ben-achar-ben from the Alter Rebbe. There is no evidence that he is from the Maharal. And there is no evidence at all that the Maharal is from Dovid.

I'm looking at it right now. What evidence would you like? DNA maybe? Is there any way to get some intellectual honesty out of you? This is printed in the Rebbe's seifer.. In other words - *documented* beyond any dispute as far as this am ho'oretz is concerned. If you don't own the seifer - let me know and I'll ship you one (free of charge), bli neder. Of course with all the prolific typing you've been doing lately I wonder if you'll have the time to sign for the package let alone do a shtickle looking up yourself... Nebuch.

193

 May 08, 2009 at 12:51 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #105  
Anonymous Says:

What the elohistin believe is not merely a false hashkafa, it is avodah zarah mamash!

That depends on what you mean by this made-up term. There is nobody in the world who identifies with that term; it's a label people put on others, and they're never very clear what they mean by it.

194

 May 08, 2009 at 12:30 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #55  
Anonymous Says:

Could you cite these "many times" in the Gemoro. I don't know of any.

the reason u dont know of any places is most probaly 'cuz u havent learnt all of shas or tend to not 'see' tehm

195

 May 08, 2009 at 12:26 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #71  
Anonymous Says:

I choose not to believe The Rebbe actually said that. It must be either a mistake, or a miswriting of something else.
I had great respect for The Rebbe, OBM. But if he actually said that, it does toss ALL of my respect for him out the window.

You can choose to believe whatever you like, but you were given the reference and can easily look it up for yourself. If you're capable of reading Hebrew, that is.

196

 May 07, 2009 at 11:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #160  
esther Says:

no,no,no,excuse me!if what you say is true,that chazal accepted yushka's students, how could that possibly be the case now?once xianity morphed into a totally different religion,wouldn't any type of belief in jc be avodah zora?comparing mishichistin to early xianity,that's not a good thing OK.you don't have to be any kind of chacham to get that.

Protecting the Torah and Yiddishkeit is enough of a reason to dismiss meshichisten.

197

 May 07, 2009 at 10:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #152  
Anonymous Says:

well if you are a chossid of the lubavitcher rebbe you've got to believe he's moshiach since he told us that clearly...maybe not alive, but him being moshiach there is no question

חסיד שוטה

198

 May 08, 2009 at 07:26 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #191  
Anonymous Says:

I am wondering something here, if y'all believe in "techias hamaisim," then according to YOU the Lubavitcher Rebbe will be alive once again, one way or another.

This continuing attack on Lubavitch started at its inception. So put down all of your lifted noses and go on being a Jew and stop pretending that this argument began in 1994.

And so will be all other tzadikim. And *therefore*? DO *you* and other lubavitcher *really* believe in mashiach and techiyat hamessim? IF so, you should really be concerned to meet all tzadikim and others, and Mashiach when it will be someone other than the LR? Where will you put your face for all the strife you caused by declaring your Rebbe the Mashiach?

199

 May 08, 2009 at 07:24 AM Shmuel Says:

What doesRav Klein mena when he writes that he does not come to destroy the big house that the Rebbe built? I find this statement curious. I would think that he would write that he does not come to destroy the great man or the great Tzaddik?

200

 May 08, 2009 at 07:22 AM Reuven Says:

Milhouse:

I would like to ask you a question: you write (as does Rav Klein) that the Rebbe did not force everyone. Can you describe for me what you envision the words in teh RamBam actually mean?

201

 May 08, 2009 at 07:22 AM truth Says:

Reply to #185  
Milhouse Says:

You've seen R Hershel Greenberg's testimony. He was THERE and saw what happened. Are you calling him a liar, based on a rumour you heard third-hand?

He has no credibility whatsoever on this issue! He is the biggest nogea bedovor! He is the one of the "leaders" and spokesman of the mashichist camp from it's inception. Can you tell us the *name* of an independent person who was there and can attest to the veracity of Greenberg's"testimony"?

202

 May 08, 2009 at 07:36 AM Clear apikorsus Says:

Reply to #193  
Milhouse Says:

That depends on what you mean by this made-up term. There is nobody in the world who identifies with that term; it's a label people put on others, and they're never very clear what they mean by it.

There is no ambiguity in the statement of atzmius melubush beguf. This is a Lubavitch restatement of the trinity. The simple meaning of this is the anthropomorphism or embodiment in a human body which is absolute apikorsus.

You can dance around and say that deep Chassidus answers this, but I'll believe it when I see it.

I also saw a cd where a spokesman from Lubavitch was advocating this point of view to an asifa.

203

 May 08, 2009 at 07:34 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #177  
Milhouse Says:

This is certainly not a tradition in Lubavitch. In Lubavitch there are no stories about him at all; he's not mentioned. He didn't like Lubavitchers and Lubavitchers returned the compliment. In Lubavitch the only Brisker Rov who's mentioned much is R Chayim, who had respect for Lubavitch and enjoyed their respect in return.

What difference does it make whether R Hirschprung was a Lubavitcher? Was he or was he not a world-class posek? You must admit that he was. And he paskened that "there is no shadow of a question in halacha" about the permissibility of the meshichist beliefs. They have enough sources to rely on that they're entitled to their position, even if he himself did not share it. You saw the psak for yourself. So what more have you to say?

WRT to Rav Hirshprung. This"pssak" was at his late of his life. He did NOT write this "pssak". He was given to sign it! When they toldhim that he is signing a letter to stop the withholdongof money to OholeyTorah for mashiachist views. It is a disgrace how the used andmanipulated an old man for their mischievous and false religion!

204

 May 08, 2009 at 08:23 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #198  
Anonymous Says:

And so will be all other tzadikim. And *therefore*? DO *you* and other lubavitcher *really* believe in mashiach and techiyat hamessim? IF so, you should really be concerned to meet all tzadikim and others, and Mashiach when it will be someone other than the LR? Where will you put your face for all the strife you caused by declaring your Rebbe the Mashiach?

And if the true Moshiach turns out to be the LR? Are you not going to accept?

205

 May 08, 2009 at 08:17 AM michal Says:

Reply to #201  
truth Says:

He has no credibility whatsoever on this issue! He is the biggest nogea bedovor! He is the one of the "leaders" and spokesman of the mashichist camp from it's inception. Can you tell us the *name* of an independent person who was there and can attest to the veracity of Greenberg's"testimony"?

Lohon Hora!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am not Lubavitch, but I know him personally. He is a man who is full of chesed and ahavas yisroel. He is responsible for bringing many yidden back to yiddishkeit. Plus, he is a big talmid chacham with a big heart.

SHAME ON YOU!!!!!!

206

 May 08, 2009 at 10:28 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

What else is new? This is something everyone has know for the last 15 years! If only those in Chabad (minority or majority) would break with the messianic element, painful as it may be, it would prevent the rest of the Orthodox world (both Charedi and MO) from writing off the entire Chabad movement as messianic.

Wether or not "Lubavitch Messianics" are right or wrong, the fact is we were always looked upon as such and ridiculed. This being true 40 years ago. His sichos were ripped and his prophecies mocked by these very people who are commenting here about his greatness.
The Rebbe made many Horoas re bringing Moshiach closer. How many people commenting here are prepared to fulfill them so that his most pressing wish should actually be realized?.
Emor meat vaase harbe
Zeitz matzliach in brengt Moshiach

207

 May 08, 2009 at 03:44 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #203  
Anonymous Says:

WRT to Rav Hirshprung. This"pssak" was at his late of his life. He did NOT write this "pssak". He was given to sign it! When they toldhim that he is signing a letter to stop the withholdongof money to OholeyTorah for mashiachist views. It is a disgrace how the used andmanipulated an old man for their mischievous and false religion!

Are you saying he signed something without reading it??? Is that the kind of regard you have for him?

208

 May 08, 2009 at 03:43 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #202  
Clear apikorsus Says:

There is no ambiguity in the statement of atzmius melubush beguf. This is a Lubavitch restatement of the trinity. The simple meaning of this is the anthropomorphism or embodiment in a human body which is absolute apikorsus.

You can dance around and say that deep Chassidus answers this, but I'll believe it when I see it.

I also saw a cd where a spokesman from Lubavitch was advocating this point of view to an asifa.

There is no ambiguity in the halacha that kol hamevazeh talmid chochom is an apikores, and ein lo chelek. You do not have to agree with the statement in question but since the Rebbe did say it you have no right to call it apikorsus; the very act of calling it that IS apikorsus. Please see the very teshuvah of R Menashe Klein that we are discussing. He starts out with this halacha.

The Rebbe himself is a bar samcha, enough to support any statement that he made. The problem is finding support for statements that he DIDN'T make, such as that he was Moshiach.

209

 May 08, 2009 at 03:37 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #200  
Reuven Says:

Milhouse:

I would like to ask you a question: you write (as does Rav Klein) that the Rebbe did not force everyone. Can you describe for me what you envision the words in teh RamBam actually mean?

Exactly what they say. Moshiach will be a king just like Dovid and Yehoash and Chizkiyohu and Bar Kochva, and Torah will be the law of the land. If you do an avera and the authorities find out you will be arrested. If you don't put on tefilin or eat matzah on pesach, the police will come and make you. If there are reports of avoda zara in the land he will send inspectors into every house to look for them, as Yehoash did. That's the plain meaning of the word "yochof", and there is no reason to translate it any other way. And the fact is that the Rebbe did not have that kind of power.

210

 May 08, 2009 at 03:31 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #192  
sherlock choloimes Says:

I'm looking at it right now. What evidence would you like? DNA maybe? Is there any way to get some intellectual honesty out of you? This is printed in the Rebbe's seifer.. In other words - *documented* beyond any dispute as far as this am ho'oretz is concerned. If you don't own the seifer - let me know and I'll ship you one (free of charge), bli neder. Of course with all the prolific typing you've been doing lately I wonder if you'll have the time to sign for the package let alone do a shtickle looking up yourself... Nebuch.

DNA evidence would be nice, if it were available. If we had a copy of Dovid's Y chromosome, we could just compare modern claimants to it and know for sure. But we don't, so that's out.

What evidence do I want? How about the same evidence you'd want if I were to claim to be ben-achar-ben from Dovid Hamelech.

But in fact the Hayom Yom doesn't even make such a claim. If you're looking at it and you still think it says what you claim, then you're illiterate. It's not enough to stare at a printed page, you have to also be able to read the language in which it's written!

We know the LR's yichus for eight generations; beyond that we have no idea.

211

 May 08, 2009 at 04:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #141  
Milhouse Says:

1. There isn't any. Nor is there likely to be such evidence for ANYONE who arises as Moshiach, until Eliyohu comes and tells us. If someone does all the things that Moshiach is supposed to do, and we don't know for a fact that he's NOT from beis Dovid, then we can assume that he is, unless Eliyohu tells us otherwise.

2. That makes no sense at all. He may well have been ben achar ben from Dovid, but undoubtedly there are many others.

the Rebbe is Ben Acher Baen from the Maharal, who had a Myuchas Ben Acher Ben from Dovid!
it really is simple if you just look for answers!

212

 May 08, 2009 at 04:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #207  
Milhouse Says:

Are you saying he signed something without reading it??? Is that the kind of regard you have for him?

I have high regard for him! I do not have high regard the people who manipulated an old man! Maybe the showed him part of the "pssak" and they edited the rest. I know for a fact that lots of things written in that letter he did NOT subscribe to!

213

 May 08, 2009 at 05:01 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #211  
Anonymous Says:

the Rebbe is Ben Acher Baen from the Maharal, who had a Myuchas Ben Acher Ben from Dovid!
it really is simple if you just look for answers!

You can say it all you like, but you are not a novi, and there is no other way for you to know either of these things. Neither one is written anywhere, and there is no evidence for them. Repeating them many times doesn't make them any truer.

214

 May 08, 2009 at 05:16 PM Aharon Says:

DIN MELECH BEFORE CHEZKAS MOSHIACH??
I am very surprised at Rav Klein's question about the eligibility of the Rebbe being Moshiach as the Rambam says "Yaamod Melech" and the Rebbe was not a Melech. Does Rabbi Klein think the Rambam is talking about someone who will have the din of a Melech even before he is established as Chezkas Moshiach? How could this possibly be. If he was appointed by a Novi, then he would not be only Chezkas Moshiach, he would be Vadai Moshiach and would not need any more simonim to prove his status as Moshiach as it wouldn't make sense for example to say that Eliyahu Hanavi would come and declare someone to be Melech Hamoshiach only to find out later that he wasn't the one? the nevuah was not true?

So how could the Rambam be possibly talking about a din Melech. And if you say that this "Melech" was not appointed for the purpose of "restoring Malchus Dovid" but rather as a melech stam, not as a Yoresh Malchus Dovid, for this appointment you need a Beis Din of 71 Zkeinim and a Novi as the Rambam paskens in Hilchos Melochim Perek 1 Halacha 3?! See also L'kutei Sichos volume 8 pg 361 where the Rebbe says we can't say the Rambam's intention of Yaamod Melech is through a Beis Din of 70 and a Novi, but rather al derech the concept of a king as the Rambam refers to "Ben Kuziva Hamelech" who was declared by Rabbi Akiva to be Melech Hamoshiach but he was not appointed by any Novi or Beis Din.

From the above is muchrach to say that the Rambam is referring not to someone who already enjoys mamosh dinei malchus but to the concept of a Manhig bichlal who is "called" a melech. We see in Midrash Raboh at the end of Parshas Bechukosai that Yiftach says "Ani MELECH VoEileich Eitzel Pinchas" even though Yiftach was only a Shofet but NOT a King (see Sh"UT of the Rashba "Hamiyuchosos L'Ramban" Siman 284 that a Shofet clearly does not have the din of a Melech).

As to this status of "Melech" Hamoshiach even before he shows simanim of Chezkas, see Rambam Hilchos Melochim perek 1 Halacha 7 where he writes: "Kivan Shenimshach Dovid Zocho B'Keser Malchus Vaharei Hamalchus Lo Ulvonov Hazechorim Ad Oilom" which means that Malchus Dovid exists forever also in the time of golus as Chazal tell us "Dovid Melech Yisroel Chai V'kayom", so even though we may not have the "cheftza" of Melucha, nevertheless, in every generation we have the "Gavra" of "Melech Mibeis Dovid" who inherits the Keser Malchus of Dovid Oviv.

See also the Akeida parshas Vayechi on the posuk "Lo Yosur Sheivet Miyehudah" who writes that in every generation Hashem did not leave us without a remnance from Shevet Yehudah, Rebi and all the Chachmei Hadoros, and they conducted "NESIUS, Rabonus and Geonus.. Vgam acharei Chein Lo Sor Meihem Shevet NOHEG SRORA UMINUI MALCHUS Biktzas Mekomos Moshvosom. Ukvar zochar Horav Binyomin Baal Hamaso-os Sherooh B'einov Bimdinas Bagdad Ir Gedolah Lelokim Vshomo Kamo Alofim Urevovos Miyisrael , Ub'yom Ginusom Malkom Haya Rochev, V'nosi Mizera Dovid Etzlo B'mirkeves Hamishne Asher Lo, V'yikoru L'fonov B'kovod Godol: Aso Derech L'Ben Dovid, UBCHOL ZMAN UZMAN YESH K'YOTZEI B'EILU B'CHOL MOKOM SHEHEIM" ad kan lshono.

See also Chidushei Agodos Maharsha 98:b on Divrei Hamaschil Kgon Ano: " DMoshiach...Mei-Osan Habo-im Mibnei Dovid V'adayin hoyo lohem Memsholo Gam B'Golus".

Bichlal I am surprised that Rav Klein would expend part of his sefer to bash yidden lomdim yirei Shomayim, a whole movement (it's already yodua umifursam that 99.9% of Lubavitchers, breish glei or shtillerheit believe the Rebbe is or will be Moshiach) dedicated to Harbotzas Torah, so you don't like their extremisim, but they have their own Rabonim, geonim boki bshas Uposkim and have sources in Torah for their hanhogos and don't need his input as he doesn't need the input of some Lubavitcher Rov to passel him for anything he does, let alone call him an apikoros r"l, very surprised at Rav Klein, unless someone led his hand ...







215

 May 08, 2009 at 05:12 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #212  
Anonymous Says:

I have high regard for him! I do not have high regard the people who manipulated an old man! Maybe the showed him part of the "pssak" and they edited the rest. I know for a fact that lots of things written in that letter he did NOT subscribe to!

Face it, he wouldn't have signed something that he didn't read. And he had enough people coming to him that someone surely showed him the published version; if it had been edited he would have issued a second statement. When R Aharon Soloveichik's first statement was misrepresented he issued a second statement to clarify it; it said exactly the same as the first statement, but explicitly ruled out what the first statement did NOT say. R Hirschprung could have done the same if he was misrepresented; he didn't because he wasn't.

216

 May 08, 2009 at 06:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #215  
Milhouse Says:

Face it, he wouldn't have signed something that he didn't read. And he had enough people coming to him that someone surely showed him the published version; if it had been edited he would have issued a second statement. When R Aharon Soloveichik's first statement was misrepresented he issued a second statement to clarify it; it said exactly the same as the first statement, but explicitly ruled out what the first statement did NOT say. R Hirschprung could have done the same if he was misrepresented; he didn't because he wasn't.

You can say what you want; he told *me* that he was misrepresented! While i am not able to prove you, i"m convinced (by talking to *him* all those times) that he did not subscribe to thatletter. (bichlal thetone of that letter was not his type of writing to aynone who knew him).

217

 May 09, 2009 at 04:33 AM ZR Says:

Reply to #211  
Anonymous Says:

the Rebbe is Ben Acher Baen from the Maharal, who had a Myuchas Ben Acher Ben from Dovid!
it really is simple if you just look for answers!

Wrong.

The Alter Rebbe is ben acher ben to the Maharal. But the Rebbe is NOT ben acher ben to the Alter Rebbe. And we don't know wheather he is ben acher ben to the Maharal. Nor is there solid proof that the Maharal is ben acher ben to dovid.

What we do know is that the great great grandfather of the Maharal had on his kever "meyuchos mibeis dovid". But that is not solid proof.

218

 May 09, 2009 at 11:31 PM SimchaB Says:

Does anyone know if the Abarbanel is referring to one who was designated as Moshiach while living and then passes away, if he can be believed to return after techiyas hamaisim and be Moshiach? If yes, I still don't see why the Meshichistim don't put away their flags and banners and move onward. Even according to them, there is no guarantee when moshiach will appear/return. So if c"v this golus continues, how many years or decades can their yiddishkeit withstand this messianic mania without suffering permanent damage, such as cutting themselves off from the rest of yiddishkeit.

219

 May 09, 2009 at 10:01 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #214  
Aharon Says:

DIN MELECH BEFORE CHEZKAS MOSHIACH??
I am very surprised at Rav Klein's question about the eligibility of the Rebbe being Moshiach as the Rambam says "Yaamod Melech" and the Rebbe was not a Melech. Does Rabbi Klein think the Rambam is talking about someone who will have the din of a Melech even before he is established as Chezkas Moshiach? How could this possibly be. If he was appointed by a Novi, then he would not be only Chezkas Moshiach, he would be Vadai Moshiach and would not need any more simonim to prove his status as Moshiach as it wouldn't make sense for example to say that Eliyahu Hanavi would come and declare someone to be Melech Hamoshiach only to find out later that he wasn't the one? the nevuah was not true?

So how could the Rambam be possibly talking about a din Melech. And if you say that this "Melech" was not appointed for the purpose of "restoring Malchus Dovid" but rather as a melech stam, not as a Yoresh Malchus Dovid, for this appointment you need a Beis Din of 71 Zkeinim and a Novi as the Rambam paskens in Hilchos Melochim Perek 1 Halacha 3?! See also L'kutei Sichos volume 8 pg 361 where the Rebbe says we can't say the Rambam's intention of Yaamod Melech is through a Beis Din of 70 and a Novi, but rather al derech the concept of a king as the Rambam refers to "Ben Kuziva Hamelech" who was declared by Rabbi Akiva to be Melech Hamoshiach but he was not appointed by any Novi or Beis Din.

From the above is muchrach to say that the Rambam is referring not to someone who already enjoys mamosh dinei malchus but to the concept of a Manhig bichlal who is "called" a melech. We see in Midrash Raboh at the end of Parshas Bechukosai that Yiftach says "Ani MELECH VoEileich Eitzel Pinchas" even though Yiftach was only a Shofet but NOT a King (see Sh"UT of the Rashba "Hamiyuchosos L'Ramban" Siman 284 that a Shofet clearly does not have the din of a Melech).

As to this status of "Melech" Hamoshiach even before he shows simanim of Chezkas, see Rambam Hilchos Melochim perek 1 Halacha 7 where he writes: "Kivan Shenimshach Dovid Zocho B'Keser Malchus Vaharei Hamalchus Lo Ulvonov Hazechorim Ad Oilom" which means that Malchus Dovid exists forever also in the time of golus as Chazal tell us "Dovid Melech Yisroel Chai V'kayom", so even though we may not have the "cheftza" of Melucha, nevertheless, in every generation we have the "Gavra" of "Melech Mibeis Dovid" who inherits the Keser Malchus of Dovid Oviv.

See also the Akeida parshas Vayechi on the posuk "Lo Yosur Sheivet Miyehudah" who writes that in every generation Hashem did not leave us without a remnance from Shevet Yehudah, Rebi and all the Chachmei Hadoros, and they conducted "NESIUS, Rabonus and Geonus.. Vgam acharei Chein Lo Sor Meihem Shevet NOHEG SRORA UMINUI MALCHUS Biktzas Mekomos Moshvosom. Ukvar zochar Horav Binyomin Baal Hamaso-os Sherooh B'einov Bimdinas Bagdad Ir Gedolah Lelokim Vshomo Kamo Alofim Urevovos Miyisrael , Ub'yom Ginusom Malkom Haya Rochev, V'nosi Mizera Dovid Etzlo B'mirkeves Hamishne Asher Lo, V'yikoru L'fonov B'kovod Godol: Aso Derech L'Ben Dovid, UBCHOL ZMAN UZMAN YESH K'YOTZEI B'EILU B'CHOL MOKOM SHEHEIM" ad kan lshono.

See also Chidushei Agodos Maharsha 98:b on Divrei Hamaschil Kgon Ano: " DMoshiach...Mei-Osan Habo-im Mibnei Dovid V'adayin hoyo lohem Memsholo Gam B'Golus".

Bichlal I am surprised that Rav Klein would expend part of his sefer to bash yidden lomdim yirei Shomayim, a whole movement (it's already yodua umifursam that 99.9% of Lubavitchers, breish glei or shtillerheit believe the Rebbe is or will be Moshiach) dedicated to Harbotzas Torah, so you don't like their extremisim, but they have their own Rabonim, geonim boki bshas Uposkim and have sources in Torah for their hanhogos and don't need his input as he doesn't need the input of some Lubavitcher Rov to passel him for anything he does, let alone call him an apikoros r"l, very surprised at Rav Klein, unless someone led his hand ...







Enough pshetlach and dreidelach. Melech means a king, poshut kipshuto, as defined in halacha. Someone whose coinage circulates, and is accepted by the people of his country as their ruler. Someone who holds the power of life and death in his hands. Someone on whom one can make the brocho "shecholak michvodo". The Rebbe was not that.

Had his wife and brother both survived him, she would have given him chalitzoh, as the widow of the Beis Yisroel did to the Lev Simcho. After that she could have remarried. The widow of a king does not give chalitzah, nor may she remarry. But he was not a king, and those laws did not apply.

220

 May 10, 2009 at 12:38 AM SimchaB Says:

Does anyone know if the Abarbanel is referring to one who was designated as Moshiach while living and then passes away, if he can be believed to return after techiyas hamaisim and be Moshiach? If yes, I still don't see why the Meshichistim don't put away their flags and banners and move onward. Even according to them, there is no guarantee when moshiach will appear/return. So if c"v this golus continues, how many years or decades can their yiddishkeit withstand this messianic mania without suffering permanent damage, such as cutting themselves off from the rest of yiddishkeit.

221

 May 10, 2009 at 04:55 AM Yankel Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

100% correct every word!!
Pure apikorsim!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXDVbw9CM6c

222

 May 10, 2009 at 04:16 AM Aharon Says:

Reply to #219
Had the wife and brother of Ben Kuziva "Hamelech" survived him, would she have given him chalitza? B'pashtus, according to the strict halacha in Rambam, yes, since he was not appointed by a Novi & Beis Din of 71
he did not have the DIN of a melech.

Therefore Yaamod Melech here is not referring to an actual King with all the bells & whistles of dinei malchus but simply someone who comes from Malchus Beis Dovid who shows signs of melucha and has the simanim of chezkas, i.e. hogeh, yokuf, yilchom etc.

There's an interesting gemora in Horiyos (11b) involving Rabbeinu Hakodosh who asks R' Chiya if he was living in the time of the Beis Hamikdash if he would need to bring a Soir for a korbon (as a hedyot brings a S'eirah-famale but a Nosi brings a He-goat). Now the question is, the Mishna had already said that the criteria of a Nosi (who brings a Soir) is a Melech, so why would Rabbeinu Hakodosh have a question bichlal if he was not a Melech?

The simple explanation is that since Rabbeinu Hakodosh was Nosi of the Sanhedrin and was from Zera Dovid this was considered a form of Malchus akin to Malchus Dovid in the time of Golus. See Rashi on the spot who explains the question of Rebbi: "K'lomar Nesius Didi Mi Hu Nesius Maalya D'Ilu Havina Bizman Shebais Hamikdash Kayom Meisina Soir O Lo"

See sefer Nesivos Olam of the Maharal, in which is printed a letter from his Talmid Reb Yisroel who writes to him:
Moshiach Tzidkeinu, Brosheinu Malkeinu, MELECH YEHUDAH.... Hagaon Hamufla Moreinu VRabeinu Horav R' Yehudah Liva, Yechi Adoneinu L'olam.. Ruach Apeinu Moshiach Tzidkeinu"

btw. I am not hooked on davka insisting the Rebbe fulfilled chezkas Moshiach according to Halacha although I wouldn't be surprised, I am just pointing out that Rav Klein makes a comment about Yaamod Melech which leads the reader to think he believes the Rambam requires a din Melech which clearly he doesn't as I've proven.

223

 May 10, 2009 at 03:14 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #108  
Z Says:

Why The Lubavitche Rebbe is not Mashiach
From the writings of the Rambam

1) Mashiach must to be a Navi (there is only nevuah in eretz Yisrael- the rebbe never was there). He has to be greater a navi than Avraham Avinu and less of a navi than Moshe Rabeinu.
2) Depends on results- Rabbi Akiva thought Bar Kochva was mashiach, but when he died he realized that he was not mashiach, so he moved on.
3) Mashiach will reign like a king and then die, and then his son will take over, and then his son, just like malchus beis david. The rebbe had no sons or daughters.
4) Mashiach must be a decendent from Malchus beis David paternally. The rebbe was a decendent through his father in law. His father in law was the previous rebbe.

the rebbe is traced the same way as his father-in-law.they are both ben achar ben from the tzemach tzedek(third chabad rebbe).the rebbe married his third cousin.

224

 May 10, 2009 at 01:41 AM In The Name Of Harav Elyashiv Says:

Saying someone is Moshiach in not kefira, even though it may well be a meshigas.
O heard from a gr8 mekubal - a kofar is one who says that if the rebbe won't be moshiach, then there is no moshiach, that is kafira.

225

 May 10, 2009 at 01:24 AM serel chana maness Says:

shalom aliechiam to you all. l happened to be deaf and can request all you yidden to look up in the rebbes holy letters and you will see for yourself that the rebbe is here many people have received answers in many different areas in advise, blessings,comfort,and many other things also the rebbe has answered my thoughts and also even if l did not like the answered,like a rebuked,always received blessings and encourghments .we know he is moshiach ,lt's the geula we want now! the world is changing the world is doing tz. lt's great that this form is here for everyone to letting this all out lmm geula!

226

 May 10, 2009 at 01:07 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #220  
SimchaB Says:

Does anyone know if the Abarbanel is referring to one who was designated as Moshiach while living and then passes away, if he can be believed to return after techiyas hamaisim and be Moshiach? If yes, I still don't see why the Meshichistim don't put away their flags and banners and move onward. Even according to them, there is no guarantee when moshiach will appear/return. So if c"v this golus continues, how many years or decades can their yiddishkeit withstand this messianic mania without suffering permanent damage, such as cutting themselves off from the rest of yiddishkeit.

One important point that most commenters, including the author of the original article, completely missed:

R Menashe Klein does NOT call the belief that the Rebbe will be Moshiach apikorsus. He doesn't say it, he doesn't hint at it, and it is wrong to spin it as if this is his message. What he calls apikorsus is the BIZUY TALMID CHOCHOM that he thinks the radical meshichists cause, when they insist on rubbing their mishugas in everyone's faces. They turn the Rebbe into a joke, and THAT is their apikorsus. Someone who quietly believes what he believes, is entitled to do so and R Klein has no problem with that.

It follows, kal vochomer ben beno shel kal vochomer, that anyone who denounces those things that the Rebbe himself verifiably said, as so many opponents of the meshichists have done, IS CERTAINLY AN APIKORES.

227

 May 10, 2009 at 01:01 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #220  
SimchaB Says:

Does anyone know if the Abarbanel is referring to one who was designated as Moshiach while living and then passes away, if he can be believed to return after techiyas hamaisim and be Moshiach? If yes, I still don't see why the Meshichistim don't put away their flags and banners and move onward. Even according to them, there is no guarantee when moshiach will appear/return. So if c"v this golus continues, how many years or decades can their yiddishkeit withstand this messianic mania without suffering permanent damage, such as cutting themselves off from the rest of yiddishkeit.

Read the teshuvah, which is linked at the top of the article.

The Abarbanel doesn't specify anything, he just says "Don't think Moshiach can't be from those who will be resurrected, for the Amoraim were already unsure of this in Perek Chelek, where they said 'if he is from the dead...'". In other words, the Abarbanel just quotes the same gemoro in Sanhedrin that is the main source-text of the meshichists, and it's obvious that he understands it like them, that it is possible for Moshiach to come from the dead. The main point of bringing this Abarbanel is just to prove that they are not distorting the gemoro; on the contrary, their understanding of it is a legitimate one, that the Abarbanel shared.

None of this means the Rebbe WILL be moshiach, just that he CAN be, and therefore they're entitled to believe he will be.

228

 May 10, 2009 at 07:30 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #222  
Aharon Says:

Reply to #219
Had the wife and brother of Ben Kuziva "Hamelech" survived him, would she have given him chalitza? B'pashtus, according to the strict halacha in Rambam, yes, since he was not appointed by a Novi & Beis Din of 71
he did not have the DIN of a melech.

Therefore Yaamod Melech here is not referring to an actual King with all the bells & whistles of dinei malchus but simply someone who comes from Malchus Beis Dovid who shows signs of melucha and has the simanim of chezkas, i.e. hogeh, yokuf, yilchom etc.

There's an interesting gemora in Horiyos (11b) involving Rabbeinu Hakodosh who asks R' Chiya if he was living in the time of the Beis Hamikdash if he would need to bring a Soir for a korbon (as a hedyot brings a S'eirah-famale but a Nosi brings a He-goat). Now the question is, the Mishna had already said that the criteria of a Nosi (who brings a Soir) is a Melech, so why would Rabbeinu Hakodosh have a question bichlal if he was not a Melech?

The simple explanation is that since Rabbeinu Hakodosh was Nosi of the Sanhedrin and was from Zera Dovid this was considered a form of Malchus akin to Malchus Dovid in the time of Golus. See Rashi on the spot who explains the question of Rebbi: "K'lomar Nesius Didi Mi Hu Nesius Maalya D'Ilu Havina Bizman Shebais Hamikdash Kayom Meisina Soir O Lo"

See sefer Nesivos Olam of the Maharal, in which is printed a letter from his Talmid Reb Yisroel who writes to him:
Moshiach Tzidkeinu, Brosheinu Malkeinu, MELECH YEHUDAH.... Hagaon Hamufla Moreinu VRabeinu Horav R' Yehudah Liva, Yechi Adoneinu L'olam.. Ruach Apeinu Moshiach Tzidkeinu"

btw. I am not hooked on davka insisting the Rebbe fulfilled chezkas Moshiach according to Halacha although I wouldn't be surprised, I am just pointing out that Rav Klein makes a comment about Yaamod Melech which leads the reader to think he believes the Rambam requires a din Melech which clearly he doesn't as I've proven.

While it does not require the full "din" of melech, it simply requires ACTUAL KINGSHIP! The power to RULE based on his title as a melech. That he has an army that fights the enemies of the jewish people in the *literal* sense, that he runs medina in the *literal* He was not close to any form of "rulership" that exist nowadays (mayor, governor, president and certainly not a melech). A chassidishe Rebbe who has chassidim does not a melech make.

Laws of "nessius" which had somehow a LEGAL POWER of Beis Din does not mean that a chassidic has this power. Also, "nassi" and "melech" do not mean the same thing in all respects!

And please it is so laughable when you guys quote melitza languages to anyone who is familiar with these leshonot written in those and these days that it does not begin to mean what you guys are talking about! no one claimed Maharal Miprag to be "cheskat mashiach" ! No one actually made such claim in the literal sense since Bar Kochva and no one made such claim based on the ruling of the Rambam since the Rambam codified this into halacha. To bring proof from "leshonot" when the reality is that NO ONE HAS CROWNED OR UPHELD THE TITLE OF "CHEZKAT MASHIACH" to anyone is a chucha utlolah!





229

 May 10, 2009 at 08:14 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #119  
Milhouse Says:

1. "Yechi..." doesn't mean he's alive. The ones who say he's not alive, and that's OK because Moshiach can come from the dead, still say Yechi. And even antis say "Yechi hamelech"; the objection is not to the reisha ("yechi") but to the seifa ("melech hamoshiach"). The Rebbe himself clearly said that it's appropriate to say "yechi"; but he didn't endorse the whole slogan.

2. If you object to the idea that a rebbe is "atzmus umehus vi er is araingeton in a guf", then you've got a big problem, because the Rebbe himself said that. To understand it you need to learn a lot of chassidus, but you have no right to condemn it or to call it "a false hashkafa" and incompatible with "being a properly-Torah-observant Jew". Surely you will agree that the LR himself was a "properly-Torah-observant Jew" with a "proper Hashkafa", and yet this is what he believed. Lo oleinu telunoseichem...

So just because the Rebbe himself said something, makes it true?

"Yechi..." doesn't mean he's alive."

"Yechi Adonaynu Moraynu V'Rabaynu Melech HaMoshiach L'Olam VaEd," means, "May our master, teacher, and rabbi, King Moshiach, live forever." How can he live forever if he's dead?

Korach and the 250 members of the Sanhedrin, Yeravam ben Nevat, Shabesai Tzvi, Achitophel, and Doeg HaEdomi were all Talmiday Chachamim, but they all had a false Hashkafa.

"If you object to the idea that a rebbe is "atzmus umehus vi er is araingeton in a guf", then you've got a big problem, because the Rebbe himself said that. To understand it you need to learn a lot of chassidus, but you have no right to condemn it or to call it "a false hashkafa" and incompatible with "being a properly-Torah-observant Jew". "

What does this have to do with Chassidus? Does any other Chassidic group besides Lubavitch say that their Rebbe is Moshiach or worship a dead Rebbe? No.

230

 May 10, 2009 at 08:58 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #226  
Milhouse Says:

One important point that most commenters, including the author of the original article, completely missed:

R Menashe Klein does NOT call the belief that the Rebbe will be Moshiach apikorsus. He doesn't say it, he doesn't hint at it, and it is wrong to spin it as if this is his message. What he calls apikorsus is the BIZUY TALMID CHOCHOM that he thinks the radical meshichists cause, when they insist on rubbing their mishugas in everyone's faces. They turn the Rebbe into a joke, and THAT is their apikorsus. Someone who quietly believes what he believes, is entitled to do so and R Klein has no problem with that.

It follows, kal vochomer ben beno shel kal vochomer, that anyone who denounces those things that the Rebbe himself verifiably said, as so many opponents of the meshichists have done, IS CERTAINLY AN APIKORES.

Not true at all! It may be your opinion! But Rav Klein clearly explains his position and states "kol hoomer al mi aehynoh mashiach behagdarah sheyesh lanu , milvad shehu shakran umessis umediach, hareh machlish haemunoh beyisroel vekofer haemunoh bemashiach amiti bebiossoy behatzlossochossoy ubehatzlchas klal yisroel ...vegam lechalushey moach hu rachmonoh litzlan dugmph shel notzrim ",

so, IN ADDITION TO the fact that it ebarasses the Rebbe, he (rav Klein) claims that it goes against the way a Jew is supposed beleive. It is against the directives given to us how to identify mashacih, it weakens the beleif in the true mashiach, in his coming, in his success (and then he also adds that to some weak people it resembles christianity). to say that all he claimed is that it embarrasses the rEbbe is a ALUBAVITCHER SPIN on the words of the Rabbi. You can hold what you want of him but be honest and do not distort his words. You can read the teshuva itself at length where in his opinion to hold that the REbbeis mashiach is wrong! and is against the jewish beleif in mashiach!

231

 May 10, 2009 at 09:43 AM SimchaB Says:

Thank you Mr. Richard Milhaus Nixon for your response to my post (#220). So far my hypothesis that there is no mekor in the Torah nor any historical episode of the same individual being designated as Moshiach in life and beyond has not been refuted. I therefore call on all yellowflagger meshichistim to stop the madness, and return to normative Chasidish Yiddishkeit. In this zechus may we be zoche to the Geulah Shlaima Bemihaira!

232

 May 10, 2009 at 10:41 AM Aharon Says:

To use the term "laughable" with no concrete support from Rishonim Achronim or from the Rambam himself will not get you any closer to proving your insisted pshat in the Rambam.

Since you are so sure about the process can you please explain to me how this "melech" who you agree will not yet have a "din" melech will accomplish "Yokuf Kol Yisroel" when yidden are spread b'chol katzvei tevel under democratic governments? Will he excercise his "literal rulership" by way of execution akin to the arba misos beis din against the law of the lands in which the Yidden reside thereby waging war against the entire world including the superpowers and all this without the help of osos umofsim (Hilchos Melochim 11:3)??

What makes you so certain that the Rambam is not simply saying that one of the criteria for Moshiach is that he needs to be from Zera Dovid and in the capacity of a Melech similar to what I brought from the Maharsha"Oson Habo-im Mibnei Dovid Vadayin Hoyo Lohem Memsholo Gam Bgolus".

Just for your information, the Rebbe is accepted as a king kipshuto by tens of thousands of his Chassidim who accept his instruc¬tions as the word of royalty in the literal sense and it is not an exaggeration to say that the Rebbe has a solid army of over 50,000 shluchim worldwide (and growing rapidly after 3 Tammuz beyond comprehension!) who left their families and comforts of the civilized & frum world solely based on one commanding order from their General! Can you give me one other example of a person, Rosh Yeshiva or any other descendant of Dovid Hamelech in the last millenia that enjoyed such a command? It's known (whether the world laughed at it or not) that any chossid would literaly die to fulfill any order of the Rebbe. And you're telling me that's not malchus? (and btw can you give me an example of any Zera Mibeis Dovid since the time of the Gemora who's entire life was solely dedicated to Yokuf Kol Yisroel and had the ability to excercise that and actively went about it literally like the Rebbe has? If you heard the Chief Rabbi of England, Sir Jonathon Sacks in his unity lecture before Pesach, you would have heard exactly that.

Just for your information, many Rabbonim, Gedolim, before 3 Tammuz considered the Rebbe b'Chezkas Moshiach. I believe there is even a tape, you can ask around in Lubavitch to find it of an Asifa held in front of thousands of chassidim one Motzoei Shabbos in 770 in 1992 where Horav Hagaon R' Yosef Heller said that he thoroughly went through the Rambam L'Halacha over the summer and concluded that the Rebbe fits the description of Chezkas Moshiach and therefore encouraged publicly for everyone to sign a paper to accept his Malchus. Please don't bring me other comments or letters of Rabbi Heller, they are not relevant to the fact that at one point he held the Rebbe fits the description of the Rambam as Chezkas Moshiach literally.

233

 May 10, 2009 at 10:47 AM to 228 Says:

Reply to #228  
Anonymous Says:

While it does not require the full "din" of melech, it simply requires ACTUAL KINGSHIP! The power to RULE based on his title as a melech. That he has an army that fights the enemies of the jewish people in the *literal* sense, that he runs medina in the *literal* He was not close to any form of "rulership" that exist nowadays (mayor, governor, president and certainly not a melech). A chassidishe Rebbe who has chassidim does not a melech make.

Laws of "nessius" which had somehow a LEGAL POWER of Beis Din does not mean that a chassidic has this power. Also, "nassi" and "melech" do not mean the same thing in all respects!

And please it is so laughable when you guys quote melitza languages to anyone who is familiar with these leshonot written in those and these days that it does not begin to mean what you guys are talking about! no one claimed Maharal Miprag to be "cheskat mashiach" ! No one actually made such claim in the literal sense since Bar Kochva and no one made such claim based on the ruling of the Rambam since the Rambam codified this into halacha. To bring proof from "leshonot" when the reality is that NO ONE HAS CROWNED OR UPHELD THE TITLE OF "CHEZKAT MASHIACH" to anyone is a chucha utlolah!





If that is the kind of Melech you are waiting for you might as well give up on Moshiach altogether because it will not ever happean in your way

234

 May 10, 2009 at 05:06 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #233  
to 228 Says:

If that is the kind of Melech you are waiting for you might as well give up on Moshiach altogether because it will not ever happean in your way

Now THAT is kefirah!

235

 May 10, 2009 at 04:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #188  
Milhouse Says:

Why don't YOU look it up. The Rebbe is NOT ben-achar-ben from the Alter Rebbe. There is no evidence that he is from the Maharal. And there is no evidence at all that the Maharal is from Dovid.

Correction: It is brought down in the memoirs of the Frierdiker Rebbe. That's not "no source".

236

 May 10, 2009 at 04:51 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #223  
Anonymous Says:

the rebbe is traced the same way as his father-in-law.they are both ben achar ben from the tzemach tzedek(third chabad rebbe).the rebbe married his third cousin.

And NEITHER ONE is known to have been ben-achar-ben from Dovid. It's entirely possible that they were, and if one was then so was the other, but there is not the slightest shred of evidence for it. There are probably many people in the world who have such a yichus, and just don't know it. For all I know both you and I have this yichus, and the Lubavitcher Rebbes did not; ein eilu elo divrei nevius. But if someone appears to be Moshiach, and we don't know his yichus, it's fair to ASSUME that he has the right yichus and follow him, until Eliyohu comes to tell us for sure.

237

 May 10, 2009 at 05:02 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #229  
Anonymous Says:

So just because the Rebbe himself said something, makes it true?

"Yechi..." doesn't mean he's alive."

"Yechi Adonaynu Moraynu V'Rabaynu Melech HaMoshiach L'Olam VaEd," means, "May our master, teacher, and rabbi, King Moshiach, live forever." How can he live forever if he's dead?

Korach and the 250 members of the Sanhedrin, Yeravam ben Nevat, Shabesai Tzvi, Achitophel, and Doeg HaEdomi were all Talmiday Chachamim, but they all had a false Hashkafa.

"If you object to the idea that a rebbe is "atzmus umehus vi er is araingeton in a guf", then you've got a big problem, because the Rebbe himself said that. To understand it you need to learn a lot of chassidus, but you have no right to condemn it or to call it "a false hashkafa" and incompatible with "being a properly-Torah-observant Jew". "

What does this have to do with Chassidus? Does any other Chassidic group besides Lubavitch say that their Rebbe is Moshiach or worship a dead Rebbe? No.

You wrote: So just because the Rebbe himself said something, makes it true?

My response: Not necessarily, but it does make it acceptable to say. If you accuse the Rebbe of saying or believing something that is outside Judaism, then, as R Menashe Klein wrote in the teshuvah which is the subject of this thread, YOU are the apikores.

******
I wrote: "Yechi..." doesn't mean he's alive."

You wrote: "Yechi Adonaynu Moraynu V'Rabaynu Melech HaMoshiach L'Olam VaEd," means, "May our master, teacher, and rabbi, King Moshiach, live forever." How can he live forever if he's dead?

My response: Have you heard of techiyas hameisim?

*****
You wrote: Korach and the 250 members of the Sanhedrin, Yeravam ben Nevat, Shabesai Tzvi, Achitophel, and Doeg HaEdomi were all Talmiday Chachamim, but they all had a false Hashkafa.

My response: If you are comparing the Rebbe to these people, then you are automatically an apikores. R Klein denounces the meshichists and calls them apikorsim for bringing the Rebbe into disrepute; kal vochomer you, who openly insult him! If that was your intent you need to do immediate teshuvah, and until then should keep away from frum web sites, because you are worse than a mechalel shabbos. If it was not your intent, then what did you mean by it?

******

You wrote: What does this have to do with Chassidus? Does any other Chassidic group besides Lubavitch say that their Rebbe is Moshiach or worship a dead Rebbe? No.

My response: Yes, as a matter of fact many chassidim said their rebbes were Moshiach. There were even misnagdim who said the same of the GRO. If it hasn't been seen in the past 50 years or so, maybe those chasidim knew that their rebbes weren't shayach to it. Why should that affect those who merited to have a rebbe who WAS shayach to it, as R Aharon Soloveichik explicitly said?

238

 May 10, 2009 at 05:17 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #235  
Anonymous Says:

Correction: It is brought down in the memoirs of the Frierdiker Rebbe. That's not "no source".

First, quote the page (and the version, since the original Hebrew version has been lost).

Second, even if it is written there (and I don't trust you until I see it inside), it is not evidence. The previous LR was not a historian or a genealogist, and even such a person would have to cite evidence, not simply state something as a fact. A bare assertion by ANYBODY is not evidence.

239

 May 10, 2009 at 05:15 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #232  
Aharon Says:

To use the term "laughable" with no concrete support from Rishonim Achronim or from the Rambam himself will not get you any closer to proving your insisted pshat in the Rambam.

Since you are so sure about the process can you please explain to me how this "melech" who you agree will not yet have a "din" melech will accomplish "Yokuf Kol Yisroel" when yidden are spread b'chol katzvei tevel under democratic governments? Will he excercise his "literal rulership" by way of execution akin to the arba misos beis din against the law of the lands in which the Yidden reside thereby waging war against the entire world including the superpowers and all this without the help of osos umofsim (Hilchos Melochim 11:3)??

What makes you so certain that the Rambam is not simply saying that one of the criteria for Moshiach is that he needs to be from Zera Dovid and in the capacity of a Melech similar to what I brought from the Maharsha"Oson Habo-im Mibnei Dovid Vadayin Hoyo Lohem Memsholo Gam Bgolus".

Just for your information, the Rebbe is accepted as a king kipshuto by tens of thousands of his Chassidim who accept his instruc¬tions as the word of royalty in the literal sense and it is not an exaggeration to say that the Rebbe has a solid army of over 50,000 shluchim worldwide (and growing rapidly after 3 Tammuz beyond comprehension!) who left their families and comforts of the civilized & frum world solely based on one commanding order from their General! Can you give me one other example of a person, Rosh Yeshiva or any other descendant of Dovid Hamelech in the last millenia that enjoyed such a command? It's known (whether the world laughed at it or not) that any chossid would literaly die to fulfill any order of the Rebbe. And you're telling me that's not malchus? (and btw can you give me an example of any Zera Mibeis Dovid since the time of the Gemora who's entire life was solely dedicated to Yokuf Kol Yisroel and had the ability to excercise that and actively went about it literally like the Rebbe has? If you heard the Chief Rabbi of England, Sir Jonathon Sacks in his unity lecture before Pesach, you would have heard exactly that.

Just for your information, many Rabbonim, Gedolim, before 3 Tammuz considered the Rebbe b'Chezkas Moshiach. I believe there is even a tape, you can ask around in Lubavitch to find it of an Asifa held in front of thousands of chassidim one Motzoei Shabbos in 770 in 1992 where Horav Hagaon R' Yosef Heller said that he thoroughly went through the Rambam L'Halacha over the summer and concluded that the Rebbe fits the description of Chezkas Moshiach and therefore encouraged publicly for everyone to sign a paper to accept his Malchus. Please don't bring me other comments or letters of Rabbi Heller, they are not relevant to the fact that at one point he held the Rebbe fits the description of the Rambam as Chezkas Moshiach literally.

He will force all Israel because he will be a literal king, for which halacha gives criteria, such as that his coinage circulates, and that he has the power of life and death. First he will force all the Jews under his jurisdiction to follow the Torah. Then he will gather all the Jews to EY and be their king, and so they will all be under his sovereignty and have no choice but to obey his laws, which will be the Torah laws.

The Rebbe never forced anyone, nor did he have the power to force anyone, let alone "kol yisroel".

You ask for an example of such a person. That is a stupid request, because there has never been anyone who was bechezkas Moshiach since Bar Kochva.

Yes, it's true that in the early '90s many rabbonim did think the Rebbe fit the criteria, and twisted themselves in all kinds of knots and pshetlach to say so. It was wishful thinking and mass hysteria, especially as the Rebbe got sicker and sicker, and nobody wanted to face the truth that we would lose him. The only way to save him was to merit the geulah immediately, while he was still alive, so it became more and more important to insist that this would happen. But it didn't, and in the aftermath of his passing the saner rabbonim climbed down from their ladders and admitted that they'd been mistaken. Keshem shekiblu schar al hadrisha, kach al haprisha.

240

 May 10, 2009 at 09:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #237  
Milhouse Says:

You wrote: So just because the Rebbe himself said something, makes it true?

My response: Not necessarily, but it does make it acceptable to say. If you accuse the Rebbe of saying or believing something that is outside Judaism, then, as R Menashe Klein wrote in the teshuvah which is the subject of this thread, YOU are the apikores.

******
I wrote: "Yechi..." doesn't mean he's alive."

You wrote: "Yechi Adonaynu Moraynu V'Rabaynu Melech HaMoshiach L'Olam VaEd," means, "May our master, teacher, and rabbi, King Moshiach, live forever." How can he live forever if he's dead?

My response: Have you heard of techiyas hameisim?

*****
You wrote: Korach and the 250 members of the Sanhedrin, Yeravam ben Nevat, Shabesai Tzvi, Achitophel, and Doeg HaEdomi were all Talmiday Chachamim, but they all had a false Hashkafa.

My response: If you are comparing the Rebbe to these people, then you are automatically an apikores. R Klein denounces the meshichists and calls them apikorsim for bringing the Rebbe into disrepute; kal vochomer you, who openly insult him! If that was your intent you need to do immediate teshuvah, and until then should keep away from frum web sites, because you are worse than a mechalel shabbos. If it was not your intent, then what did you mean by it?

******

You wrote: What does this have to do with Chassidus? Does any other Chassidic group besides Lubavitch say that their Rebbe is Moshiach or worship a dead Rebbe? No.

My response: Yes, as a matter of fact many chassidim said their rebbes were Moshiach. There were even misnagdim who said the same of the GRO. If it hasn't been seen in the past 50 years or so, maybe those chasidim knew that their rebbes weren't shayach to it. Why should that affect those who merited to have a rebbe who WAS shayach to it, as R Aharon Soloveichik explicitly said?

"You wrote: Korach and the 250 members of the Sanhedrin, Yeravam ben Nevat, Shabesai Tzvi, Achitophel, and Doeg HaEdomi were all Talmiday Chachamim, but they all had a false Hashkafa.

My response: If you are comparing the Rebbe to these people, then you are automatically an apikores. R Klein denounces the meshichists and calls them apikorsim for bringing the Rebbe into disrepute; kal vochomer you, who openly insult him! If that was your intent you need to do immediate teshuvah, and until then should keep away from frum web sites, because you are worse than a mechalel shabbos. If it was not your intent, then what did you mean by it?"

I'm saying that if these people in history could make a mistake, so can the meshichists.

Also, exactly which other Chassidic groups said that their Rebbe is Moshiach, and do they go around saying the "Yechi" about their Rebbe? Do the Misnagdim go around saying the "Yechi" about the GRA, ZT"L?

241

 May 11, 2009 at 12:48 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #240  
Anonymous Says:

"You wrote: Korach and the 250 members of the Sanhedrin, Yeravam ben Nevat, Shabesai Tzvi, Achitophel, and Doeg HaEdomi were all Talmiday Chachamim, but they all had a false Hashkafa.

My response: If you are comparing the Rebbe to these people, then you are automatically an apikores. R Klein denounces the meshichists and calls them apikorsim for bringing the Rebbe into disrepute; kal vochomer you, who openly insult him! If that was your intent you need to do immediate teshuvah, and until then should keep away from frum web sites, because you are worse than a mechalel shabbos. If it was not your intent, then what did you mean by it?"

I'm saying that if these people in history could make a mistake, so can the meshichists.

Also, exactly which other Chassidic groups said that their Rebbe is Moshiach, and do they go around saying the "Yechi" about their Rebbe? Do the Misnagdim go around saying the "Yechi" about the GRA, ZT"L?

But you were not talking about the meshichists. You were talking about the Rebbe. Comparing him to those people is mevazeh talmid chochom, and therefore apikorsus.

Which part of "Yechi" are you complaining about? The first part is completely unobjectionable. The second part is what we're talking about, which identifies him as Moshiach. I've already told you there were many chassidim who said so about their rebbes, and even misnagdim who said it about the GRO. But no, they did not go about shouting it from the rooftops and rubbing it in everyone's face. They did not drive everyone crazy saying it and singing it nonstop. And they didn't insist that everyone must say it too, as if nobody was allowed to disagree with them.

Were you expecting an argument from me about that? If you expected me to defend the meshichists' beliefs, rather than their right to hold those beliefs, you clearly haven't been paying attention.

242

 May 11, 2009 at 12:23 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #233  
to 228 Says:

If that is the kind of Melech you are waiting for you might as well give up on Moshiach altogether because it will not ever happean in your way

I think the Rambam would certainly consider YOU a kofer, even according to Milhouses's standards!

243

 May 11, 2009 at 12:17 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #228  
Anonymous Says:

While it does not require the full "din" of melech, it simply requires ACTUAL KINGSHIP! The power to RULE based on his title as a melech. That he has an army that fights the enemies of the jewish people in the *literal* sense, that he runs medina in the *literal* He was not close to any form of "rulership" that exist nowadays (mayor, governor, president and certainly not a melech). A chassidishe Rebbe who has chassidim does not a melech make.

Laws of "nessius" which had somehow a LEGAL POWER of Beis Din does not mean that a chassidic has this power. Also, "nassi" and "melech" do not mean the same thing in all respects!

And please it is so laughable when you guys quote melitza languages to anyone who is familiar with these leshonot written in those and these days that it does not begin to mean what you guys are talking about! no one claimed Maharal Miprag to be "cheskat mashiach" ! No one actually made such claim in the literal sense since Bar Kochva and no one made such claim based on the ruling of the Rambam since the Rambam codified this into halacha. To bring proof from "leshonot" when the reality is that NO ONE HAS CROWNED OR UPHELD THE TITLE OF "CHEZKAT MASHIACH" to anyone is a chucha utlolah!





you forgot shabsai tzvi

244

 May 11, 2009 at 06:48 AM yankel Says:

Reply to #217  
ZR Says:

Wrong.

The Alter Rebbe is ben acher ben to the Maharal. But the Rebbe is NOT ben acher ben to the Alter Rebbe. And we don't know wheather he is ben acher ben to the Maharal. Nor is there solid proof that the Maharal is ben acher ben to dovid.

What we do know is that the great great grandfather of the Maharal had on his kever "meyuchos mibeis dovid". But that is not solid proof.

I am surprised this took so long to emerge. The Rebbe is ben acher ben to Reb Shalom Shachna who had a lineage back to the Maharal

245

 May 11, 2009 at 07:35 AM Anonymous Says: