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Jerusalem - Promiment Charedi Rabbi: One May Not Marry a Child at Others' Expense

Published on: May 22, 2009 10:50 AM
By: VIN News By Ezra Reichman | Mishpacha
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Rabbi Michel Yehuda Lefkowitz is a Haredi leader living in Bnei Brak, Israel. He is one of the heads of the Ponevezh yeshiva and is a member of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of Degel HaTorah. He is a student of Rav Shlomo Heiman and the Chazon Ish. He released the two volume Chiddushei Rabbi Shlomo, the torah of his rebbi, Rav Shlomo Heiman.Jerusalem - During a discussion with representatives of the “Simcha BaMaono” Housing Committee, Rav Michel Yehuda Lifkowitz told the representatives, “A person may not marry his children relying on getting money for the expenses from free loan funds.”

The Simcha BaMaono rabbonim have been meeting with a number of leading rabbonim in the Israeli chareidi community in search of solutions for the dire chareidi housing problem. Two Fridays ago they visited Rav Lifkowitz and heard his description of how wedding expenses have brought many parents to a financial and emotional crisis. “Many times, the happiness one sees in weddings is only a facade, because of the heavy debts crouching on the parents,” he said.

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Rav Chizkiyahu Mishkovsky, the mashgiach of Orchos Torah yeshiva, and a confidant of Rav Steinman, then asked Rav Lifkowitz if it was permitted for a person who doesn’t have the money to engage his daughter to a ben Torah, to obligate himself for an immense sum that will result in him entering an endless cycle of loaning money from one gemach to pay another, or in the end, violating his commitment to pay.

Rav Lifkowitz answered sharply that there is no heter to marry children at others’ expense.
. He nevertheless added that a young avreich should not take upon himself a heavy load of debt that he must pay monthly because this will not let him concentrate on his studies. Instead, a young avreich should only undertake low monthly mortgage payments. This development is at the heart of the chassana plan which the rabbinical committee is trying to advance.



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Read Comments (98)  —  Post Yours »

1

 May 22, 2009 at 10:02 AM DUH Says:

Here's a novel approach for the Rabbanim to consider. How about telling their flocks to go out and get freaking jobs.

2

 May 22, 2009 at 09:57 AM Anonymous Says:

Finely finely. But how about having a child at others expense? To have more than a boy and a girl is only a "small mitzvah" only if you can afford it. (see rashi bitza # 30)

3

 May 22, 2009 at 10:30 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
DUH Says:

Here's a novel approach for the Rabbanim to consider. How about telling their flocks to go out and get freaking jobs.

they have one .............its called learning Torah.........the vast majority do so diligently and in the face of great poverty......dont lumber the majority with the sins of the minority of layabouts..............after all, you never know who is really supporting whom??

4

 May 22, 2009 at 10:27 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Finely finely. But how about having a child at others expense? To have more than a boy and a girl is only a "small mitzvah" only if you can afford it. (see rashi bitza # 30)

What number child are you?

5

 May 22, 2009 at 10:45 AM Huh? Says:

What took him so long to realize suddenly that people borrow money like crazy to marry off kids, buy them an apartment, etc.? This has been going on for decades.

6

 May 22, 2009 at 10:44 AM PMO Says:

I'm sure I will take some heat for this, but this is nothing new.

We have developed a culture of "entitlement" in the frum community that somewhat masks the goyishe world. FAR too many are living on everything from food stamps to welfare instead of getting jobs. Many rack up credit card debt as high as they can and declare bankruptcy. I have seen plenty push their parents to the brink of foreclosure just so they can have the "wedding of their dreams".

What I don't see, are these "ready for married life" boys and girls doing anything for THEMSELVES! Girls don't go to college so their job prospects are limited... boys don't go to college and don't WANT to work... so they live off the backs of everyone else. They take money from their parents (that they may or may not really have to give)... and they live on social assistance at the expense of their neighbors higher taxes.

When did this all become acceptable, or in some cases DESIRABLE? To these children have no sense of purpose in life? Do these people not realize that they will soon have families of their own who need to be provided for? Since when is getting a job such a terrible thing? I can be certain that not every bochur in our yeshivos is there because he wants to become the next gadol hador. We all know plenty who do it in order to AVOID "real life". Rebbaim better wake up and realize that they are creating this "entitlement" generation and it is financially destroying many families.

7

 May 22, 2009 at 10:44 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
Anonymous Says:

What number child are you?

I am the first boy! Git shabes.

8

 May 22, 2009 at 10:54 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Huh? Says:

What took him so long to realize suddenly that people borrow money like crazy to marry off kids, buy them an apartment, etc.? This has been going on for decades.

I guess you want to say that people don't have brains of their own, and unless some godol tells them, they wouldn't know what to do. If this is the case, which godol was it that told them to "borrow money like crazy to marry off kids, buy them an apartment, etc."? Not having brains they wouldn't be able to get to this idea on their own.

9

 May 22, 2009 at 10:57 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Finely finely. But how about having a child at others expense? To have more than a boy and a girl is only a "small mitzvah" only if you can afford it. (see rashi bitza # 30)

No such Rashi at the daf you cited

http://www.e-daf.com/index.asp?ID=1266&size=1

10

 May 22, 2009 at 10:53 AM Anonymous Says:

Someone once mentioned a novel idea. Make each Chosson and Kallah undertake their own Chasuna expenses. Wedding, apartment, furniture, etc... Arrange a long-term delayed payment plan which is paid out over the life of the couple. This way each couple will only have to pay for ONE wedding - no matter how many children they have. Good idea, no?

11

 May 22, 2009 at 10:52 AM Anonymous Says:

It is utterly amazing that all they can say is don't over borrow lest you aren't able to pay back the gemach. What about sending these chasanim to America to collect? Why not teach them to support themselves? Do these parents have no pride? What was the thought process, have 12 kids and hope some sugar daddy from the US will love their cause and write them a blank check? And even if they did have someone fitting their bill, what do they expect their children to do?
I just don't get it, and I am not trying to criticize their way of life, but was there never a thought process? At some point someone was going to have bills to pay, tuition to cover, weddings to make etc...

12

 May 22, 2009 at 10:50 AM mayer Says:

According to this rabbi children should get no matter how old and never get married?

13

 May 22, 2009 at 11:17 AM Anonymous Says:

maybe instead of criticizing parents for going into debt to marry off their children, how about demanding that the yeshiva bochrim stop demanding such obscene prices for the "privilege" of marrying them. a true ben torah should be willing to marry the appropriate ezer k'negdo even if her parents can't put a down payment on an apartment in bnei brak or make a big wedding or give them enough money that they can have chicken for dinner every night. a true ben torah will marry the right girl for him even if it means less material comfort.

14

 May 22, 2009 at 11:14 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
Anonymous Says:

I am the first boy! Git shabes.

And like me I guess you wish your father stopped after you so you would have no sisters to fight as a kid & the whole yerusha would go straight to you

15

 May 22, 2009 at 11:08 AM chusid Says:

I for one completely ignore the yerushalmi chevra coming to shul for hachnosas kalla. If everyone else did maybe these guyswho spend their days walking the streets of geula and meah shearim would be forced to get jobs.

16

 May 22, 2009 at 11:08 AM opinion Says:

Right but wrong person to say it since he lives on other peoples money all his life.
and by the way, you can't judge a person, many are working hard but still can't afford to marry their children.

17

 May 22, 2009 at 11:06 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

they have one .............its called learning Torah.........the vast majority do so diligently and in the face of great poverty......dont lumber the majority with the sins of the minority of layabouts..............after all, you never know who is really supporting whom??

There is no basis in halacha to have to "bribe" your machatunim to marry your daugher. If the rabbonim were serious about resolving this problem once and for all they would simply issue a psak that it is assur to pay anything in connection to a chassanah and that any marriage consumated under such circumstances is null and void. I suspect if the liklihood that all your grandchildren would be deemed mamzerim would fix the problem immediately. Otherwise, it is clear that the rabbonim really don't care about the burdens and tragic consequences of the current arrangements whereby the debts being incurred have gotten intolerable.

18

 May 22, 2009 at 11:06 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Finely finely. But how about having a child at others expense? To have more than a boy and a girl is only a "small mitzvah" only if you can afford it. (see rashi bitza # 30)

Onah, however, is a chiyuv, and birth control for purely economic reasons is assur.

19

 May 22, 2009 at 11:27 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
Anonymous Says:

maybe instead of criticizing parents for going into debt to marry off their children, how about demanding that the yeshiva bochrim stop demanding such obscene prices for the "privilege" of marrying them. a true ben torah should be willing to marry the appropriate ezer k'negdo even if her parents can't put a down payment on an apartment in bnei brak or make a big wedding or give them enough money that they can have chicken for dinner every night. a true ben torah will marry the right girl for him even if it means less material comfort.

A true ben torah is told NOT to have bitachon. Rather, marry a wealthy girl so he can sit, learn and shteig without worries. That's the only way one can become a godol. Any Rosh Yeshiva will advise him to look for money first, that's a fact.

20

 May 22, 2009 at 11:27 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Finely finely. But how about having a child at others expense? To have more than a boy and a girl is only a "small mitzvah" only if you can afford it. (see rashi bitza # 30)

"Rav Lifkowitz answered sharply that there is no heter to marry children at others' expense."

Really? So what exactly, according to him, is hachnosas kalloh? What did our ancestors do for centuries, when the choson demanded a naddon that they couldn't afford? They went collecting! And nobody ever told them not to.

21

 May 22, 2009 at 11:26 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Finely finely. But how about having a child at others expense? To have more than a boy and a girl is only a "small mitzvah" only if you can afford it. (see rashi bitza # 30)

Onah, however, is a chiyuv, and birth control for purely economic reasons is assur. This Rashi you cite isn't there. But if you will find such a thing elsewhere, it has nothing to do with this. The only time the poskim talk about whether having extra children is a mitzvah is when discussing whether a man should look for another wife. If he already has children of both sexes, then it's not such a chiyuv to find another wife to have more children. But that has nothing to do with people who are currently married!

22

 May 22, 2009 at 11:23 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
mayer Says:

According to this rabbi children should get no matter how old and never get married?

That is not what he is saying at all.

23

 May 22, 2009 at 11:23 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

No such Rashi at the daf you cited

http://www.e-daf.com/index.asp?ID=1266&size=1

I am sorry. It's at # 37 at the first Rashi.

24

 May 22, 2009 at 11:22 AM Yossele Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

they have one .............its called learning Torah.........the vast majority do so diligently and in the face of great poverty......dont lumber the majority with the sins of the minority of layabouts..............after all, you never know who is really supporting whom??

What is going on in such a case is hepech of shulchan aruch. Go learn hilchos talmud torah.

Everyone must work cdei parnasoso. Someone who is *toraso umnoso* who throws himself on the khal and lives on tzedoka is mechalel shem shomoyim and mechabe orah shel torah.

25

 May 22, 2009 at 11:21 AM Huh? Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

I guess you want to say that people don't have brains of their own, and unless some godol tells them, they wouldn't know what to do. If this is the case, which godol was it that told them to "borrow money like crazy to marry off kids, buy them an apartment, etc."? Not having brains they wouldn't be able to get to this idea on their own.

I wasn't trying to say that, although that may be true as well. I was really trying to say why don't gedoilim wake up earlier and say something about this problem decades ago? What took R' MYL so long???

26

 May 22, 2009 at 11:28 AM PMO Says:

Reply to #12  
mayer Says:

According to this rabbi children should get no matter how old and never get married?

“ According to this rabbi children should get no matter how old and never get married? ” .

Clearly that is not the point. The point is, PLAN for it. Start some kind of "savings plan" like they do with college tuitions. If need be, when your brilliant, angel of a son is old enough, have him get a part time job and start putting money away for his own wedding. Let him tutor children who need extra help in school. Let him shovel walkways when it snows. Let him rake leaves on a Sunday afternoon. Let him work as a waiter a few nights a week.

Our parents and grandparents never expected their parents to pay their way through life. Why should our children today expect such things? This nonsense should be stopped. Aside from the top 10% who have real promise, the rest of the bochurim should be encouraged to WORK at least part-time.

There are plenty of practical solutions to this problem.... the longer we pretend that their aren't, the more financially crippled our families will become. The Torah never instructed us to live off the backs of others by taking shamelessly from their hard work (including goyim). There are halochos regarding parnossoh for a reason... because you are supposed to do it yourself!

27

 May 22, 2009 at 11:28 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
Anonymous Says:

And like me I guess you wish your father stopped after you so you would have no sisters to fight as a kid & the whole yerusha would go straight to you

Please stop it! We are talking about a Serious issue, people can't take it any more. Don't make fun of it.

28

 May 22, 2009 at 12:08 PM Anonymous Says:

DUH is right...Yafah talmud toarah im derech eretz sheyegeas shneyhem mishkachas avon...

29

 May 22, 2009 at 11:55 AM Anonymous Says:

When able bodied and able minded young men and women and adults don't work, but live off others, whether government benefits or charity, they are, in effect, taking from those who are poor and cannot work - the elderly, the disabled and the infirm since there is only so much money to go around. There are far too many elderly people who worked hard all their lives who now live in poverty not able to pay for decent food, shelter and heat.

30

 May 22, 2009 at 11:48 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
Milhouse Says:

Onah, however, is a chiyuv, and birth control for purely economic reasons is assur. This Rashi you cite isn't there. But if you will find such a thing elsewhere, it has nothing to do with this. The only time the poskim talk about whether having extra children is a mitzvah is when discussing whether a man should look for another wife. If he already has children of both sexes, then it's not such a chiyuv to find another wife to have more children. But that has nothing to do with people who are currently married!

Mihouse: Polygamy is assur (forbidden) under jewish law. It is not permitted to take a second wife to have "extra children" or to get a child of both sexes. That custom may have been allowed at the time of the patriarchs (Yaacov Avinu) but is no longer permitted under halacha.

31

 May 22, 2009 at 11:46 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

Someone once mentioned a novel idea. Make each Chosson and Kallah undertake their own Chasuna expenses. Wedding, apartment, furniture, etc... Arrange a long-term delayed payment plan which is paid out over the life of the couple. This way each couple will only have to pay for ONE wedding - no matter how many children they have. Good idea, no?

Hachnasas Kallah is a great time honored mitzvah.
It is a an kovod and a great zechus for the giver to help those young men and woman in destitude get married and start a bayis ne'emon b'Yisroel. The notion that young people should stay single until they can afford to get married is a dangerous afront to many issurim and an poses many other dangers to society .

What should be more clearly addressed is:
Collecting from other people to have anything more than a basic wedding.
One can buy used furniture. The most revolting line is when those collecting for thier wedding say "I need to buy a deirah" .

Helping young men find jobs and learn the value of earned money and not rely on handouts. The greatest mitzvah l'gabbai tzedakah is giving a person a job, a trade, chinuch - teaching anything so that he earns his money and live within thier means.








'

32

 May 22, 2009 at 11:46 AM mayer Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

That is not what he is saying at all.

Then what should the parrents do if they have no money at all?

33

 May 22, 2009 at 11:44 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #26  
PMO Says:

“ According to this rabbi children should get no matter how old and never get married? ” .

Clearly that is not the point. The point is, PLAN for it. Start some kind of "savings plan" like they do with college tuitions. If need be, when your brilliant, angel of a son is old enough, have him get a part time job and start putting money away for his own wedding. Let him tutor children who need extra help in school. Let him shovel walkways when it snows. Let him rake leaves on a Sunday afternoon. Let him work as a waiter a few nights a week.

Our parents and grandparents never expected their parents to pay their way through life. Why should our children today expect such things? This nonsense should be stopped. Aside from the top 10% who have real promise, the rest of the bochurim should be encouraged to WORK at least part-time.

There are plenty of practical solutions to this problem.... the longer we pretend that their aren't, the more financially crippled our families will become. The Torah never instructed us to live off the backs of others by taking shamelessly from their hard work (including goyim). There are halochos regarding parnossoh for a reason... because you are supposed to do it yourself!

This is Israel; if there were jobs available there would be what to discuss. Have you ever been to a mall there (a chiloni one) during the day? There are plenty of jobless men there, living off their army pensions. The state of Israel is the biggest schnorer of American Dollars. (Try a Charedi mall during seder - other than a few slackers, as well as shopkeepers, there are very few men). Enough Lashon Hara a week before Shevous about people who are actually doing something with their lives - such as learning Torah!

34

 May 22, 2009 at 11:41 AM Ben Kochba Says:

Reply to #20  
Milhouse Says:

"Rav Lifkowitz answered sharply that there is no heter to marry children at others' expense."

Really? So what exactly, according to him, is hachnosas kalloh? What did our ancestors do for centuries, when the choson demanded a naddon that they couldn't afford? They went collecting! And nobody ever told them not to.

That was becuase when the Husband married his wife he actually took on the responsibility of providing her with food, clothes and a home. Today these "men" cant do any of that and rely on everyone else to support them. That is why it is ridiculous.
Sitting in learning is not a job!
Being a Rebbe, a Rav, a Mashgiach, a Shochet, a Mohel is a job.

35

 May 22, 2009 at 11:41 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

A true ben torah is told NOT to have bitachon. Rather, marry a wealthy girl so he can sit, learn and shteig without worries. That's the only way one can become a godol. Any Rosh Yeshiva will advise him to look for money first, that's a fact.

A true "ben torah" would have the sechel and discipline to find a way to balance his life and both learn and earn a parnassah. If he doesn't have the intelligence to do both, he obviously has no business sitting all day in kolel since he will never be a talmid chacham or gadol b'torah. Indeed, his reliance on scheneuring from one genach to the next is the bigger chilul hashem than c'vachalilah getting a job.

36

 May 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
Milhouse Says:

Onah, however, is a chiyuv, and birth control for purely economic reasons is assur. This Rashi you cite isn't there. But if you will find such a thing elsewhere, it has nothing to do with this. The only time the poskim talk about whether having extra children is a mitzvah is when discussing whether a man should look for another wife. If he already has children of both sexes, then it's not such a chiyuv to find another wife to have more children. But that has nothing to do with people who are currently married!

Some birth control is completely kosher, so yours argument is not right!

37

 May 22, 2009 at 11:35 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
Milhouse Says:

Onah, however, is a chiyuv, and birth control for purely economic reasons is assur.

why is it that psak only came out during the current recession . if this is a psak then this is a psak that should have been passed decades ago. something souinds off

38

 May 22, 2009 at 11:34 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
Milhouse Says:

Onah, however, is a chiyuv, and birth control for purely economic reasons is assur.

economic reasons is usually tied in with sholom bayim . people will never say im having sholom bayis problems but will instead blame it on his financial status or current economy status

39

 May 22, 2009 at 12:24 PM Anonymous Says:

The reality is that the "kollel" system, with the lifestyle that there is no breadwinner for many years is intolerable. There are those who truly deserve the community support as one of the "asara batlonim", and these yungerleit will be the leaders and klei kodesh of the coming generation. There can be limited kollel years for the average couple, assuming that the parents have the capacity to support this.

I daven in a beis hamedrash where there are constant minyonim, and the sheer number of yidden from Eretz Yisroel who are simply here to be able to marry off their children is staggering. It is appropriate to feel their pain and struggle, but one may question the degree to which we must support this. Most of us to not panhandle to manage our own chasunas, and it is no more proper for them to do so. The gedolim should stop (or at least strongly limit) the letters of endorsement for these situations. I truly feel for the causes, but I have enough of a burden with my own to undertake the burdens of countless others. HKB"H should help us all, but we are not being unreasonable when we question the equity in what seems to be the pattern.

40

 May 22, 2009 at 12:36 PM awacs Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

Some birth control is completely kosher, so yours argument is not right!

I don't think many (or any?) Rabonim would tell you that any method of BC is kosher "at all times and circumstances." I think (from discussion with friends) that any permission to use contraception is intensely fact- and circumstance- specific, and typically time limited.

41

 May 22, 2009 at 12:36 PM Du Bist an Am Haooretz Says:

Reply to #30  
Anonymous Says:

Mihouse: Polygamy is assur (forbidden) under jewish law. It is not permitted to take a second wife to have "extra children" or to get a child of both sexes. That custom may have been allowed at the time of the patriarchs (Yaacov Avinu) but is no longer permitted under halacha.

I'd hate to have you as my posek, as you're obviously very unlearned to say it's assur under Jewish Law. It's permitted, just not accepted.

It's called Cherem D'Rabbeinu Gershom, who forbade it in his time for a thousand years. Even though the takana expired already, one can get kind of used to something forbidden for so long, so we keep it now also.

42

 May 22, 2009 at 12:34 PM awacs Says:

Reply to #30  
Anonymous Says:

Mihouse: Polygamy is assur (forbidden) under jewish law. It is not permitted to take a second wife to have "extra children" or to get a child of both sexes. That custom may have been allowed at the time of the patriarchs (Yaacov Avinu) but is no longer permitted under halacha.

Well, for (some) Sefardim it is allowed.

But, I think Milhouse was talking about a widower (like Avraham Avinu), or divorced husband (also, come to think of it, like Avraham Avinu).

43

 May 22, 2009 at 12:29 PM one cool girl Says:

Reply to #10  
Anonymous Says:

Someone once mentioned a novel idea. Make each Chosson and Kallah undertake their own Chasuna expenses. Wedding, apartment, furniture, etc... Arrange a long-term delayed payment plan which is paid out over the life of the couple. This way each couple will only have to pay for ONE wedding - no matter how many children they have. Good idea, no?

Great idea if you want ppl to wait to marry until mid 20's. Then they might have put away enough money to cover expenses. I think weddings should be way smaller. Why does every last person you've ever crossed paths need to attend?

44

 May 22, 2009 at 12:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
Yossele Says:

What is going on in such a case is hepech of shulchan aruch. Go learn hilchos talmud torah.

Everyone must work cdei parnasoso. Someone who is *toraso umnoso* who throws himself on the khal and lives on tzedoka is mechalel shem shomoyim and mechabe orah shel torah.

I think you may find that the Shulchan Aruch does condone taking money from others to learn. See Yoreh Deah 246 21 in the REmo. The Rambam is not the gepaskente shita. See the Teshuva in Avkas Rochel (written by the Beis Yose) that the Remo is quoting.

45

 May 22, 2009 at 12:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #25  
Huh? Says:

I wasn't trying to say that, although that may be true as well. I was really trying to say why don't gedoilim wake up earlier and say something about this problem decades ago? What took R' MYL so long???

How do you know he did say that decades ago? Because decades ago you didn't see an article about it on vinnews?

46

 May 22, 2009 at 01:29 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #30  
Anonymous Says:

Mihouse: Polygamy is assur (forbidden) under jewish law. It is not permitted to take a second wife to have "extra children" or to get a child of both sexes. That custom may have been allowed at the time of the patriarchs (Yaacov Avinu) but is no longer permitted under halacha.

Halacha? Assur? It's a common minhag, especially among Ashkenazim, who continued to observe cherem d'rabbenu Gershom even after it expired in the year 5000, but it's certainly not "assur (forbidden) under jewish law". In any case, you have no idea what you are talking about, and your comment is not responsive. In other words you are an idiot.

47

 May 22, 2009 at 01:25 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

I am sorry. It's at # 37 at the first Rashi.

Yes, and what is he talking about? Someone who already has a wife and children, and is now taking a new wife. THAT, Rashi says, is only "ketzas mitzvoh". How do you get from there to a married couple not having more children just because they've already had a boy and a girl?

48

 May 22, 2009 at 01:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

they have one .............its called learning Torah.........the vast majority do so diligently and in the face of great poverty......dont lumber the majority with the sins of the minority of layabouts..............after all, you never know who is really supporting whom??

"Learning Torah" is not a "job" that pays a proper wage for a married man with a family. When Kollels start paying their yungerleit $80,000 a year, then a "ben Torah" can say he's earning a living. If they live in "the face of great poverty"...no body says they have to do it. It's not my responsibility to feed , clothe, educate & marry off his kids! Why should I? GET A JOB!!

A few years ago a notice went up on the bulletin board in the school where I taught. It gave all the mailehs of a wonderful Kollel man with 10 kids & he's marryng them off....and WE, "rich Americans" should pay!

Like hell! When we married off our kids we got no help from anyone. We both work, pay taxes, no welfare etc & it was hard to manage. But some lazy person with a huge family should expect us to pay his obligations....a chutzpah. If he was disabled, that's one thing. Let him get off his rear end & GET A JOB....just like the rest of us!

49

 May 22, 2009 at 01:15 PM Yossele Says:

Reply to #44  
Anonymous Says:

I think you may find that the Shulchan Aruch does condone taking money from others to learn. See Yoreh Deah 246 21 in the REmo. The Rambam is not the gepaskente shita. See the Teshuva in Avkas Rochel (written by the Beis Yose) that the Remo is quoting.

Aderaba, the Remo is matir those who are "needed by the khal", i.e. rabbonim, dayonim etc. to live off of the khal.

He's not talking about having the whole bnei brak on welfare...

50

 May 22, 2009 at 01:35 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #30  
Anonymous Says:

Mihouse: Polygamy is assur (forbidden) under jewish law. It is not permitted to take a second wife to have "extra children" or to get a child of both sexes. That custom may have been allowed at the time of the patriarchs (Yaacov Avinu) but is no longer permitted under halacha.

PS: The commenter found the Rashi he was talking about, and indeed it was EXACTLY as I had predicted: it is explicitly taking about a man with a wife and children taking a second wife.

51

 May 22, 2009 at 01:34 PM Chavela Says:

Please tell me where the sources are that tell us young bochurim should sit in front of gemara all day and not in addition learn to support thier familes.

Who REALLY suffers?... Our children.

It has been a tragic day that Yiddishkeit has seen thier young given over to day care workers and day groups to raise 8-10 hour a day while the mothers are working to a bone "supporting" thier Talmud Chochim husbands. Neither parents are raising thier own children really. This "entitlement" mold that has "recently" developed is going to see the ruin of our families because our men are no longer men supporting and protecting thier women. The next generation is getting "what" example?.

There was recently a Rav in our town that helps kids in school who don't fit into the "Yeshiva" mold and I am not talking about "Modern Orthodoxy" either. These kids just can't bring themselves to want to "learn" for 16 hours a day. Some are interested in medicine, law etc. When someone disagrees with me in re to this issue I always tell them that thier "gedolim" in school will some day need a doctor or a home built. What about RAMBAM? He spent HOURS "helping" people in his craft - medicine. The Rav who came to our community summed it up perfectly. He said he has observed a great phenomena in our Yidden culture. "It used to be we were in the business of raising children, now we are in the business of raising gadolim". Hashem help us.

52

 May 22, 2009 at 01:12 PM Pru uRivu Says:

I say have as many children as you can. Rely on HKBH and you will be blessed beyond your dreams. Be frugal and honest. Learn Torah as a first priority and earn a living in according to your gifts. Siman tov u'mazal tov yeheh lanu, Amen !

53

 May 22, 2009 at 01:08 PM Du Bist Oich an Am Haooretz Says:

Reply to #44  
Anonymous Says:

I think you may find that the Shulchan Aruch does condone taking money from others to learn. See Yoreh Deah 246 21 in the REmo. The Rambam is not the gepaskente shita. See the Teshuva in Avkas Rochel (written by the Beis Yose) that the Remo is quoting.

That Rama doesn't apply to every single bocher, whether they're on the level or not. Only if he's a serious and capable person, unlike today where everyone must learn in Kollel and get $$$.

54

 May 22, 2009 at 01:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #39  
Anonymous Says:

The reality is that the "kollel" system, with the lifestyle that there is no breadwinner for many years is intolerable. There are those who truly deserve the community support as one of the "asara batlonim", and these yungerleit will be the leaders and klei kodesh of the coming generation. There can be limited kollel years for the average couple, assuming that the parents have the capacity to support this.

I daven in a beis hamedrash where there are constant minyonim, and the sheer number of yidden from Eretz Yisroel who are simply here to be able to marry off their children is staggering. It is appropriate to feel their pain and struggle, but one may question the degree to which we must support this. Most of us to not panhandle to manage our own chasunas, and it is no more proper for them to do so. The gedolim should stop (or at least strongly limit) the letters of endorsement for these situations. I truly feel for the causes, but I have enough of a burden with my own to undertake the burdens of countless others. HKB"H should help us all, but we are not being unreasonable when we question the equity in what seems to be the pattern.

To take it a little further:

The problem is the feeling of entitlement. Unfortunately the bocherim in E"Y demand an apartment and so forth which is totally wrong. They come down to the US to ask from RENTER'S to supply them money for their own OWNERSHIP. While I am not judging the circumstances and am giving for every single hachnosas kallah tzvek I think that this is wrong. In Shulchan Aruc hilchos tzedaka it is paskened that you must give for a person even a horse to run in front of him if he is so accostumed. Our problem therefore is NOT the issue that they come and collect money for apartments. The problem is the underlying issue whicch is the horse running in front which needs to be tackled with

55

 May 22, 2009 at 12:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #30  
Anonymous Says:

Mihouse: Polygamy is assur (forbidden) under jewish law. It is not permitted to take a second wife to have "extra children" or to get a child of both sexes. That custom may have been allowed at the time of the patriarchs (Yaacov Avinu) but is no longer permitted under halacha.

Am ha'aretz midoiraisa umidrabannan. Polygamy was assured by rabeinu gershom meor hagolah a very very short while before rash"i. Rash"i was a talmid of rabainu gershoms talmidim. Before that it was perfectly ok

56

 May 22, 2009 at 12:50 PM no bias Says:

To all of the empty minded people who are sit'n and cock'n on VIN:I'm going to put down some nondebateable facts!:for most people (90 percent),its alot easier to work than to continue to learn the heilige torah. The people who go to work are the ones wich when they were younger they couldn't wait to get out of yeshivah and out of torah atmosphere wich felt worse than hell!!this is because they were just stupid or had no zitzflaish!so to all you shmucks,don't dare speak about the unbeleavable strong outsdandig men who continue to reinforce the limud hatorah and kiyum hamitzvos by sitting in the koislay bais hamedrash and horoving yomam valaylah in the torah hakdoshah.These men are the ones that are holding up klal yisroel in this terrible galus

57

 May 22, 2009 at 12:40 PM Agent_Emess Says:

We created a monster folks, both here and in Israel.
We decided certain things HAVE TO be a certain way and then it all its us.
Sporry but we did this to ourselves

58

 May 22, 2009 at 01:38 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

Some birth control is completely kosher, so yours argument is not right!

No birth control is kosher without a heter for a good reason, and economics does not count.

59

 May 22, 2009 at 02:12 PM Anonymous Says:

It's really easy to know whether the "Frum" world is willing to accept this:
See if the Hamodia prints this!

60

 May 22, 2009 at 03:04 PM Years of Famine Says:

Yosef hatzadik did not have children during the years of famine. Now if economics is not a good reason for birth control, how do you explain that?

61

 May 22, 2009 at 04:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Now days there are too many weddings no one is interested to attend. Let's go back how it was in der alter heim they made the chuppa in the shul and a meal at the house and people came over to say Mazel tov and they were happier than todays couples.

62

 May 22, 2009 at 03:58 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #60  
Years of Famine Says:

Yosef hatzadik did not have children during the years of famine. Now if economics is not a good reason for birth control, how do you explain that?

You bring proof from years of famine??? Famine is a completely different situation. One who has already fulfilled the mitzvah may not have relations during a famine (note that it doesn't say he may have relations and use birth control). But what has that got to do with any current situation? There are no famines now.

63

 May 22, 2009 at 03:48 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:

Reply to #56  
no bias Says:

To all of the empty minded people who are sit'n and cock'n on VIN:I'm going to put down some nondebateable facts!:for most people (90 percent),its alot easier to work than to continue to learn the heilige torah. The people who go to work are the ones wich when they were younger they couldn't wait to get out of yeshivah and out of torah atmosphere wich felt worse than hell!!this is because they were just stupid or had no zitzflaish!so to all you shmucks,don't dare speak about the unbeleavable strong outsdandig men who continue to reinforce the limud hatorah and kiyum hamitzvos by sitting in the koislay bais hamedrash and horoving yomam valaylah in the torah hakdoshah.These men are the ones that are holding up klal yisroel in this terrible galus

I agree that young men of outstanding midos and intellect should sit and continue learning. the problem is that there are so few worthy young men and your post is a demonstration of that. The fact is that success in learning does not require great intellect, although it doesn't hurt. Learning is a technique that can be learned or acquired by bachurim of average intelligence (well, average for Ashkenazi Jews). Truly gifted talmidim should be encouraged and supported in their leaning. They will be our future gedolim. The remaining 95% of bachurim and avreichim are basicly studying physics, I.E. taking up time and space.

64

 May 22, 2009 at 03:46 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #56  
no bias Says:

To all of the empty minded people who are sit'n and cock'n on VIN:I'm going to put down some nondebateable facts!:for most people (90 percent),its alot easier to work than to continue to learn the heilige torah. The people who go to work are the ones wich when they were younger they couldn't wait to get out of yeshivah and out of torah atmosphere wich felt worse than hell!!this is because they were just stupid or had no zitzflaish!so to all you shmucks,don't dare speak about the unbeleavable strong outsdandig men who continue to reinforce the limud hatorah and kiyum hamitzvos by sitting in the koislay bais hamedrash and horoving yomam valaylah in the torah hakdoshah.These men are the ones that are holding up klal yisroel in this terrible galus

And to you, my ignorant friend.

I CHOSE to go get an education because I did not want to live off of other people's backs.... not because I didn't want to sit and learn. I knew I was not interested in becoming the next gadol hador. It was not my personality. I went out, got an education, got a job, and at the same time became very involved in kiruv projects and helping kids who were having trouble staying on the derech. I find plenty of time to learn and plenty of other like-minded people to learn with.

You show your gross disrespect and ignorance when you put down those who choose to go out and actually WORK for a living. There is a fine line between being a bochur with a future in leadership and being beggars and leeches who just don't want to work. It is morons like you who will spit on someone for choosing to work and make a comfortable life for their family, but WE are the first ones you come begging to when you need money. WE are the ones who enable bochurim to sit and learn. WE are the ones who feed and clothe you. If it weren't for OUR money, the only thing you would be "holding up" is cup to beg with on the street! We do this to ensure that we will have gedolim for the next generation as well. I only wish I knew who you were and what yeshiva you were from so I could ensure I wasn't sending any money there. If this is the kind of thinking that comes out, I would rather give my money to goyim! I would never support such a dispicable human being as yourself. Your learning is a worthless joke and you are an embarrassment to all of us. It is YOU who is nothing more than an ignorant leech.

65

 May 22, 2009 at 03:39 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:

Reply to #17  
Anonymous Says:

There is no basis in halacha to have to "bribe" your machatunim to marry your daugher. If the rabbonim were serious about resolving this problem once and for all they would simply issue a psak that it is assur to pay anything in connection to a chassanah and that any marriage consumated under such circumstances is null and void. I suspect if the liklihood that all your grandchildren would be deemed mamzerim would fix the problem immediately. Otherwise, it is clear that the rabbonim really don't care about the burdens and tragic consequences of the current arrangements whereby the debts being incurred have gotten intolerable.

While I may with yoyr premise, the children of a previously annulled marriage would not be mamzeirin

66

 May 22, 2009 at 03:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #30  
Anonymous Says:

Mihouse: Polygamy is assur (forbidden) under jewish law. It is not permitted to take a second wife to have "extra children" or to get a child of both sexes. That custom may have been allowed at the time of the patriarchs (Yaacov Avinu) but is no longer permitted under halacha.

It is not law it is an editct :
The Cherim Rabbenu Gershom was not even followed by the Sefardic communities:
Many Came to Eretz Yisroel in the 60's with multiple wives

67

 May 23, 2009 at 01:06 PM Shlomo Zalman Says:

The so-called chareidi gedolim created this crisis and now they are makng believe that they are first finding out about it. What nonsense. They were the problem and they still are, and they know it but can't admit they blew it.
And all you kollel parasites out there who think thay the world exists thanks to you, you are full of it. Hard working, honest people don't buy that self-serving arrogant crap that you spout. If you have no money, get off your tuches and get a job.

68

 May 22, 2009 at 07:50 PM esther Says:

Reply to #30  
Anonymous Says:

Mihouse: Polygamy is assur (forbidden) under jewish law. It is not permitted to take a second wife to have "extra children" or to get a child of both sexes. That custom may have been allowed at the time of the patriarchs (Yaacov Avinu) but is no longer permitted under halacha.

it was not custom but clear halacha.it only changed about 1000 years ago due to a gazairah by rabainu gershon.

69

 May 22, 2009 at 06:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #56  
no bias Says:

To all of the empty minded people who are sit'n and cock'n on VIN:I'm going to put down some nondebateable facts!:for most people (90 percent),its alot easier to work than to continue to learn the heilige torah. The people who go to work are the ones wich when they were younger they couldn't wait to get out of yeshivah and out of torah atmosphere wich felt worse than hell!!this is because they were just stupid or had no zitzflaish!so to all you shmucks,don't dare speak about the unbeleavable strong outsdandig men who continue to reinforce the limud hatorah and kiyum hamitzvos by sitting in the koislay bais hamedrash and horoving yomam valaylah in the torah hakdoshah.These men are the ones that are holding up klal yisroel in this terrible galus

Wow, are those the exemplary middos your rabbanim imparted to you in your heilige Torah atmosphere? I hope you're not the guy the yeshiva sends out to raise funds from us "shmucks" who believe it's our responsibility to support our families and our communities so arrogant, self-important, yiddish-spouting frummies like you can sit and "learn" all day at our expense.

70

 May 23, 2009 at 09:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
DUH Says:

Here's a novel approach for the Rabbanim to consider. How about telling their flocks to go out and get freaking jobs.

you obviously have no concept of chashivus hatorah. I think it is highly commendable for the rav to say not to rely on others and once a young couple isn't, why dont you appreciate their love and sacrifice for learning Torah?

71

 May 23, 2009 at 10:10 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

A true ben torah is told NOT to have bitachon. Rather, marry a wealthy girl so he can sit, learn and shteig without worries. That's the only way one can become a godol. Any Rosh Yeshiva will advise him to look for money first, that's a fact.

Which Rosh Yeshiva told you that bubbe maaseh? I am in the Yeshiva community, never heard such a thing.

72

 May 23, 2009 at 11:10 PM Yidish Kind Says:

Reply to #30  
Anonymous Says:

Mihouse: Polygamy is assur (forbidden) under jewish law. It is not permitted to take a second wife to have "extra children" or to get a child of both sexes. That custom may have been allowed at the time of the patriarchs (Yaacov Avinu) but is no longer permitted under halacha.

The way I understood it was that Milhouse was talking about a second wife for someone with no wife anymore for whatever reason. That is a mitzvah! It seems to me that you're talking about two wives!

73

 May 23, 2009 at 10:58 PM what does he suggest? Says:

What did Rav Lefkowitz shlit"a offer as an alternative to borrowing?

74

 May 23, 2009 at 11:15 PM Anonymous Says:

There is no chiyuv to make an elaborate chasuna, or to buy an apt. for the newlyweds. when i got married, my parents paid for a simple, modest chasuna and that's all. Then my husband and I were on own. He was in kollel and got a small stipend and had a work study job, and I had a job. When we couldn't manage this way, my husband got job training and started working. I B"H have a large family. My children B'H who are married do not depend on us. They learned how to be self sufficient, whether or not my sons are in kollel or working. So far I have one daughter married, to a working man. Why can't everyone live this way? Don't spend more than your means, and teach your children independence. Of course if you have nothing people should give tzedaka, that is an obligation.

75

 May 23, 2009 at 11:14 PM ezras nashim Says:

Reply to #56  
no bias Says:

To all of the empty minded people who are sit'n and cock'n on VIN:I'm going to put down some nondebateable facts!:for most people (90 percent),its alot easier to work than to continue to learn the heilige torah. The people who go to work are the ones wich when they were younger they couldn't wait to get out of yeshivah and out of torah atmosphere wich felt worse than hell!!this is because they were just stupid or had no zitzflaish!so to all you shmucks,don't dare speak about the unbeleavable strong outsdandig men who continue to reinforce the limud hatorah and kiyum hamitzvos by sitting in the koislay bais hamedrash and horoving yomam valaylah in the torah hakdoshah.These men are the ones that are holding up klal yisroel in this terrible galus

oooh your response is sooo annoying!! What do you know about work or what's easier, as you have had your head in the same sefer your whole life except for moments that your heilige, ge'onus-digge nose was up in the air as you sneered at the "less fortunate" chevra around you in the bais midrash.

Some possibilities for you to think of when on the "kisei hakovod " since otherwise you have to be learning Torah (and of course cruising the posts of VIN is Torah):
Maybe some of those guys left because they were driven out of the bais midrash by the baseless, unToradig gaiveh of kolleleit who actually believe everyone else is a bum. Maybe those guys make a greater kiddush Hashem than you do. Maybe, unlike you, they think for themselves once in a while and realize this is not olam Haba and wives still need to be home to care for and raise the children.

And PS regarding "easier to work": HA! Lakewooders of the world: when you preen and coo over your great heilgekeit compared to thers, consider the sheer number of nisiyonos my dear husband suffers over years and years of commuting to the city, keeping his sedarim, keeping strict zmanim and standards of kashrus, shmiras halashon, shmiras einayim, hakpodos re inappropriate socializing, etc: etc -- and MANAGING to be well-liked, professional, and uncompromisingly ethical in all things!!! That's what I call a tzaddik. He would LOVE to spend all day in the bm, but the roshei yeshiva have said NO countless times: he SUPPORTS too much TORAH for them to say stop.

You and your ilk are small -minded fools. The years you have spent "horoving yomam velayla in the Torah hakedosha" should have produced more seichel. When your relatives come for hachnassas kalla or help with 2nd mortgages on houses they haven't paid for or debts they've run up trying to keep up with the Greenbaums, you should be thinking that without them you'd be in the garbage can. Yes, and vice versa. They save you, and mosdos, daily! The only problem here is that THEY're big enough , and they're emesdig enough, to be machshiv you. But you sound like a baby because you can't be machshiv THEM.

76

 May 23, 2009 at 10:55 PM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #71  
Anonymous Says:

Which Rosh Yeshiva told you that bubbe maaseh? I am in the Yeshiva community, never heard such a thing.

I learned in Lakewood and it was understood that bnei torah have to depend primarily on bitachon.

However, Rav Aharon Kotler z"l felt it was proper for a ben torah to seek a shver that had money that would appreciate him. This is normal hishtadlus.

It is a zchus for a shver to have his money support a true ben torah and there is no better use of his money. A torah appreciating shver will feel that he got a great deal.

77

 May 23, 2009 at 11:19 PM Yidish Kind Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

Some birth control is completely kosher, so yours argument is not right!

Be very careful before you make such a statement. This belongs to a rav. There's no such thing as a completely kosher birth control just like that if it's not also discussed with one's personal rav.

78

 May 23, 2009 at 10:40 PM Yidish Kind Says:

Reply to #15  
chusid Says:

I for one completely ignore the yerushalmi chevra coming to shul for hachnosas kalla. If everyone else did maybe these guyswho spend their days walking the streets of geula and meah shearim would be forced to get jobs.

"Tzedakah tatzil mimaves" is for every cause - you never know which yid is the shaliach to save your life! Also, just as a sidenote, I hope you change your attitude because you will have a much easier time than if you try to change other people especially if you're talking about changing a community.

79

 May 23, 2009 at 10:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #64  
PMO Says:

And to you, my ignorant friend.

I CHOSE to go get an education because I did not want to live off of other people's backs.... not because I didn't want to sit and learn. I knew I was not interested in becoming the next gadol hador. It was not my personality. I went out, got an education, got a job, and at the same time became very involved in kiruv projects and helping kids who were having trouble staying on the derech. I find plenty of time to learn and plenty of other like-minded people to learn with.

You show your gross disrespect and ignorance when you put down those who choose to go out and actually WORK for a living. There is a fine line between being a bochur with a future in leadership and being beggars and leeches who just don't want to work. It is morons like you who will spit on someone for choosing to work and make a comfortable life for their family, but WE are the first ones you come begging to when you need money. WE are the ones who enable bochurim to sit and learn. WE are the ones who feed and clothe you. If it weren't for OUR money, the only thing you would be "holding up" is cup to beg with on the street! We do this to ensure that we will have gedolim for the next generation as well. I only wish I knew who you were and what yeshiva you were from so I could ensure I wasn't sending any money there. If this is the kind of thinking that comes out, I would rather give my money to goyim! I would never support such a dispicable human being as yourself. Your learning is a worthless joke and you are an embarrassment to all of us. It is YOU who is nothing more than an ignorant leech.

My friend, you got the story totally backwards.
1)Because YOU decided to give money to those that learn, you got a beracha to HAVE YOUR money.
2)The people that sit and learn do so because of the Torah alone, and not because of your investment for your gedolim of the future.

80

 May 24, 2009 at 01:26 AM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #72  
Yidish Kind Says:

The way I understood it was that Milhouse was talking about a second wife for someone with no wife anymore for whatever reason. That is a mitzvah! It seems to me that you're talking about two wives!

Actually, Rashi is explicitly talking about someone who already has a wife and children, and is marrying a second one. That is what he calls only "a bit of a mitzvah".

81

 May 24, 2009 at 12:52 AM ezras nashim Says:

Reply to #79  
Anonymous Says:

My friend, you got the story totally backwards.
1)Because YOU decided to give money to those that learn, you got a beracha to HAVE YOUR money.
2)The people that sit and learn do so because of the Torah alone, and not because of your investment for your gedolim of the future.

go #64 ! People like #79 need to be brought down off their cloud and told a thing or two about life. They sound like utter ignoramuses just parroting the cliches of the last generation. For instance, this so-proud-of-himself Lakewooder didn't stop long enough to think that ANY JEW who makes money HAS TO GIVE at least one tenth of his earnings to aniyim or mosdos haTorah (same thing). Working Yidden don't DECIDE whom to give to: the aniyei haIR ARE those who learn/don't work. That's TORAH. So nu, where's the bracha? Working is a KLALA! MEN HAVE TO WORK, according to parshas Bereishis, alst the cheit of adam harishon. Work is not fun! It's WORK. You get paid for it. But your paycheck doesn't belong to you. You have to give it out -- lots of it -- maaser, tzedaka, chinuch, the wife and kids....
That's Torah, #79. Bracha b'olam hazeh comes from zchus avos, or sometimes no obvious reason, but it's not going to come from doing what every Yid HAS TO do.
Though I, my husband, and our kids all KNOW that learning Torah is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING A YID does, the mindless gaiveh with which people such as #79 poke and prod their working peers is repulsive. At least you should have some sense that, B"H, H' provides for those (in kollel forever) who throw themselves on His mercy. And the more awed you are at the system the less you need to denigrate those who have not opted out of the facts-of-life but whose sweat and toil Hashem has channeled toward you and your family, among others.

82

 May 24, 2009 at 12:32 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #76  
tzoorba Says:

I learned in Lakewood and it was understood that bnei torah have to depend primarily on bitachon.

However, Rav Aharon Kotler z"l felt it was proper for a ben torah to seek a shver that had money that would appreciate him. This is normal hishtadlus.

It is a zchus for a shver to have his money support a true ben torah and there is no better use of his money. A torah appreciating shver will feel that he got a great deal.

" Any Rosh Yeshiva will advise him to look for money first, that's a fact." Money first, then an added bonus is if she has midos. Which Rosh Yeshiva told you that one? From whereI come from, first is midos etc., then an added bonus is if she has money.

83

 May 23, 2009 at 11:53 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #79  
Anonymous Says:

My friend, you got the story totally backwards.
1)Because YOU decided to give money to those that learn, you got a beracha to HAVE YOUR money.
2)The people that sit and learn do so because of the Torah alone, and not because of your investment for your gedolim of the future.

Is that the nonsense they tell the lazy people in your yeshiva? That truly is a pity. I bet they are the same ones who say that the in-laws should be "proud" to support their son-in-law while learning no matter how little potential he has, or how big of a lazy shlub he is. This is not the way it was supposed to be.

84

 May 23, 2009 at 11:47 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #67  
Shlomo Zalman Says:

The so-called chareidi gedolim created this crisis and now they are makng believe that they are first finding out about it. What nonsense. They were the problem and they still are, and they know it but can't admit they blew it.
And all you kollel parasites out there who think thay the world exists thanks to you, you are full of it. Hard working, honest people don't buy that self-serving arrogant crap that you spout. If you have no money, get off your tuches and get a job.

Can't you EVER make a point w/o using nivul peh? Clean out your mouth and work on your middos before lecturing others.

85

 May 24, 2009 at 08:05 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #82  
Anonymous Says:

" Any Rosh Yeshiva will advise him to look for money first, that's a fact." Money first, then an added bonus is if she has midos. Which Rosh Yeshiva told you that one? From whereI come from, first is midos etc., then an added bonus is if she has money.

Sorry to break it to you but the money is never an "added bonus". It's pretty standard of a demand. They might pretend it's just a "bonus", but it's very much sought after. Open your eyes and ask around and you'll see what I mean...Don't be so naïve.

86

 May 24, 2009 at 08:45 AM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #82  
Anonymous Says:

" Any Rosh Yeshiva will advise him to look for money first, that's a fact." Money first, then an added bonus is if she has midos. Which Rosh Yeshiva told you that one? From whereI come from, first is midos etc., then an added bonus is if she has money.

Where in your fevered imagination did you see that I said that money comes before midos? All I said was that Rav Aharon held that it was proper to look for money as one of the criteria of a prospective kallah.

87

 May 24, 2009 at 09:35 AM Anonymous Says:

What about tanaim and amoraim who used to be blacksmths etc? They learned and they worked - in demeaning jobs....

88

 May 24, 2009 at 09:27 AM esther Says:

Reply to #76  
tzoorba Says:

I learned in Lakewood and it was understood that bnei torah have to depend primarily on bitachon.

However, Rav Aharon Kotler z"l felt it was proper for a ben torah to seek a shver that had money that would appreciate him. This is normal hishtadlus.

It is a zchus for a shver to have his money support a true ben torah and there is no better use of his money. A torah appreciating shver will feel that he got a great deal.

"a torah appreciating shver will feel that he got a great deal"-this is sickening!

89

 May 24, 2009 at 10:37 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #87  
Anonymous Says:

What about tanaim and amoraim who used to be blacksmths etc? They learned and they worked - in demeaning jobs....

Those jobs shouldn't be referring to as "demeaning." There is inherent dignity in all honest work. No jobs should be considered "demeaning."

90

 May 24, 2009 at 11:25 AM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #88  
esther Says:

"a torah appreciating shver will feel that he got a great deal"-this is sickening!

Your appreciation of Torah needs a serious upgrade. You may not feel that this is for you or others of your social group, but don't make the mistake of elevating your work worshiping attitude over those individuals who sacrifice for Torah and are suited for it.

With Shavuos coming soon, you need to work on this as soon as possible.

91

 May 24, 2009 at 01:37 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #89  
Anonymous Says:

Those jobs shouldn't be referring to as "demeaning." There is inherent dignity in all honest work. No jobs should be considered "demeaning."

You could not be more correct!

One of my grandfathers was a butcher, the other worked on the docks unloading and selling wholesale produce.

Somewhere along the line our bochurim decided that they would never work a job in which they might get "dirty"... or where they would wear something other than expensive pants and white dress shirt. Life doesn't work that way. I worked a blue-collar job (washing dishes and busing in a restaurant) to put myself through college and never felt even the slightest bit of shame in it. I still found plenty of hours in the day to learn. When we wanted a house, I got a job as a security guard standing outside a bar. So many people said to me things like "washing dishes? that's a goyishe job" or "security? that's a shavartze's job!". Somewhere along the way, the concept of "making a living" became a synonym for "abandoning learning". It is just shameful and disrespectful.

92

 May 24, 2009 at 03:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #29  
Anonymous Says:

When able bodied and able minded young men and women and adults don't work, but live off others, whether government benefits or charity, they are, in effect, taking from those who are poor and cannot work - the elderly, the disabled and the infirm since there is only so much money to go around. There are far too many elderly people who worked hard all their lives who now live in poverty not able to pay for decent food, shelter and heat.

#29 is absolutely right. It is just as we have all heard: Rabbi Judah says, a man who has not taught his son a trade has taught him to steal. These lazy bums who live off welfare and charity are stealing food and clothing and money for utility bills away from people who truly need it - the elderly, the disabled, the widows, etc. It is theft, pure and simple. In the case of taxes and welfare, that money is taken by threat of force by the government from people's paychecks. They aren't volunteering it and don't want to be supporting useless burdens on society. That money is stolen from their own children and grandchildren, by arrogant bums who think they are entitled to steal. It's a disgrace.

93

 May 24, 2009 at 04:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #85  
Anonymous Says:

Sorry to break it to you but the money is never an "added bonus". It's pretty standard of a demand. They might pretend it's just a "bonus", but it's very much sought after. Open your eyes and ask around and you'll see what I mean...Don't be so naïve.

Hey Missus, I do work for a living! I am merely stating the facts. You state that Hashem provides for those who throw themselves at His mercy, but who pray tell is His messenger? Stop sounding like an apikores!

94

 May 24, 2009 at 06:07 PM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #92  
Anonymous Says:

#29 is absolutely right. It is just as we have all heard: Rabbi Judah says, a man who has not taught his son a trade has taught him to steal. These lazy bums who live off welfare and charity are stealing food and clothing and money for utility bills away from people who truly need it - the elderly, the disabled, the widows, etc. It is theft, pure and simple. In the case of taxes and welfare, that money is taken by threat of force by the government from people's paychecks. They aren't volunteering it and don't want to be supporting useless burdens on society. That money is stolen from their own children and grandchildren, by arrogant bums who think they are entitled to steal. It's a disgrace.

Your view is a total distortion.

Most of the welfare money is "stolen" by the vast multitudes of crack users that live in slum neighborhoods and prey on innocent people and never work without any excuse.

Another big source of drain of these funds is the illegal immigrant population. They extract far more from the system than the pittance taken by those engaged in studies.

Additionally, the government willingly supports graduate students that study ancient Chinese pottery. The government doesn't consider this an abuse of welfare. Those that engage in higher studies are supported. Why should Torah studies be treated any worse?

95

 May 24, 2009 at 05:41 PM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #91  
PMO Says:

You could not be more correct!

One of my grandfathers was a butcher, the other worked on the docks unloading and selling wholesale produce.

Somewhere along the line our bochurim decided that they would never work a job in which they might get "dirty"... or where they would wear something other than expensive pants and white dress shirt. Life doesn't work that way. I worked a blue-collar job (washing dishes and busing in a restaurant) to put myself through college and never felt even the slightest bit of shame in it. I still found plenty of hours in the day to learn. When we wanted a house, I got a job as a security guard standing outside a bar. So many people said to me things like "washing dishes? that's a goyishe job" or "security? that's a shavartze's job!". Somewhere along the way, the concept of "making a living" became a synonym for "abandoning learning". It is just shameful and disrespectful.

You seem to be confusing 2 issues 1 - working instead of learning 2 - working at blue collar or non professional jobs.

For those on the proper level and who are achieving in learning, learning instead of working is the proper choice. Very few learning people never work. It is only a question of when they go to work. It is improper for those with promise, to kill their opportunities by ending full time learning too early.

Once the go to work, ideally, they would want to find a Torah related position but if not they will seek work that will provide for their families and leave them maximum time to learn.

You profess to have worked at physical labor but I wonder if you would be happy making that a full time profession. If you have a degree in project management as your initials suggest, how happy would you be to be forced to take a job as a plumber?

Business is not demeaning and most people can try to get into some form of business. The smart ones will accept blue collar work in relation to founding a business with the hope of achieving business success in the end.

96

 May 24, 2009 at 07:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #95  
tzoorba Says:

You seem to be confusing 2 issues 1 - working instead of learning 2 - working at blue collar or non professional jobs.

For those on the proper level and who are achieving in learning, learning instead of working is the proper choice. Very few learning people never work. It is only a question of when they go to work. It is improper for those with promise, to kill their opportunities by ending full time learning too early.

Once the go to work, ideally, they would want to find a Torah related position but if not they will seek work that will provide for their families and leave them maximum time to learn.

You profess to have worked at physical labor but I wonder if you would be happy making that a full time profession. If you have a degree in project management as your initials suggest, how happy would you be to be forced to take a job as a plumber?

Business is not demeaning and most people can try to get into some form of business. The smart ones will accept blue collar work in relation to founding a business with the hope of achieving business success in the end.

*yawn* You're trying way too hard at proving a non-point. Just give it up already and stop boring everyone.

97

 May 24, 2009 at 10:44 PM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #96  
Anonymous Says:

*yawn* You're trying way too hard at proving a non-point. Just give it up already and stop boring everyone.

Yes, things are boring when they are above your head and don't agree with your preconceived viewpoint. The more intelligent members of this blog engage in the give and take.

Don't worry. Keep trying. Maybe one day you'll understand.

98

 May 25, 2009 at 01:49 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #95  
tzoorba Says:

You seem to be confusing 2 issues 1 - working instead of learning 2 - working at blue collar or non professional jobs.

For those on the proper level and who are achieving in learning, learning instead of working is the proper choice. Very few learning people never work. It is only a question of when they go to work. It is improper for those with promise, to kill their opportunities by ending full time learning too early.

Once the go to work, ideally, they would want to find a Torah related position but if not they will seek work that will provide for their families and leave them maximum time to learn.

You profess to have worked at physical labor but I wonder if you would be happy making that a full time profession. If you have a degree in project management as your initials suggest, how happy would you be to be forced to take a job as a plumber?

Business is not demeaning and most people can try to get into some form of business. The smart ones will accept blue collar work in relation to founding a business with the hope of achieving business success in the end.

Too funny.... While I AM an IT Project Manager, that is not what the PMO stands for.

I agree with most of your points. However, if I were going to be a plumber... so be it! I know a frum "tradesman" in my neighborhood who makes more money than I do and works less hours to do it! There are yidden in my neighborhood who do all kinds of things. One is a job supervisor for a home-improvement company... another is a fireman.... another owns an air-conditioning repair company. Yet another does home inspections. All of them are successful.

My point is that for those who are not "on the level" to really make something from their full-time learning, they need to get a job! Perhaps if they start working in a kitchen, they can open their own restaurant one day. Maybe they start working in a book store and one day open their own. I only criticize those lazy bums that want to live off welfare and push their parents and in-laws into bankruptcy because they don't WANT to work. We all know that at least 1/3 of the bochurim spend their days wandering around town... in and out of restaurants and such living on someone else's dime.

There is no job that is beneath me. There are jobs that I like and jobs I would not like to do. I'm not very good at working with my hands... but I know others who LOVE it.... they could not imagine a life sitting behind a computer all day.

I chose to go to college for IT and worked my way up into project management. I knew I was not going to become the next gadol hador, so I never tried to fool myself or anyone else into thinking otherwise. I worked long, hard hours to do it too... but I always find at least a couple of hours in the day... EVERYDAY to learn.

99

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