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New York - NY Jewish Schools Are Fighting A Proposal That Would Force Many Yeshivas To Increase Secular Education (And They're Not Alone)

Published on: August 14, 2019 10:00 AM
By: JTA
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Pedestrians walk past a yeshiva in the South Williamsburg neighborhood of Brooklyn, April 9, 2019. (Drew Angerer/Getty Images)Pedestrians walk past a yeshiva in the South Williamsburg neighborhood of Brooklyn, April 9, 2019. (Drew Angerer/Getty Images)

New York - Orthodox yeshivas, Catholic schools and elite private schools in New York are coming together to oppose a government initiative that would more clearly define what they are required to teach.

The proposal, a set of regulations from the state Department of Education, aims to ensure that private schools provide instruction that is at least as good as the education in public schools. The schools say the regulations are unnecessary and threaten their autonomy.

Advocates of the proposal point to complaints by some graduates of Orthodox yeshivas who say they received scant secular education and, as a result, were unable to support themselves financially.

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The Jewish Telegraphic Agency spoke to people on both sides of the issue to break it down.

What are the proposed regulations about?

The regulations relate to New York’s Compulsory Education Law. Passed in 1895, the law requires children aged 6 to 16 to attend school. It says that those studying at private schools should receive education that is “at least substantially equivalent to the instruction given to children of like age at the public school of the city or district in which such child resides.”

The proposed regulations seek to further clarify what amounts to a “substantially equivalent” education. They would require schools to teach certain subjects — like math, English and science — and specify how many units of each subject students must complete. The regulations also would require that students with limited English knowledge receive instruction to improve their language skills. Private schools would be subject to regular inspections to ensure they are complying with the new rules.

Schools that fail the inspections would be given opportunities to make changes. If they don’t, parents would have to send their kids elsewhere or risk violating the Compulsory Education Law, and that could lead to jail time. Noncompliant schools would lose funding for textbooks, transportation and other state-provided services.

Why are these changes being considered now?

The proposal stems from a complaint in 2015 to New York City’s Education Department by former students of 39 Orthodox schools in the city. They alleged in a letter that the schools were not providing sufficient instruction in secular studies, particularly English. Critics of the yeshiva system say the problem mainly concerns boys’ schools, since the community emphasizes religious studies for men.

The cause eventually was taken up last November by the state Education Department, which updated its guidance on what constitutes “substantially equivalent” education. That move led to complaints from a number of groups and separate lawsuits from three organizations representing Orthodox yeshivas, Catholic schools and independent schools in the state.

Each of the groups argued that the Education Department had not taken the proper steps in introducing the guidance. In April, the Albany County Supreme Court agreed that the department needed to follow certain procedures — including allowing a public comment period.

In May, the department again put forth the proposed regulations and said it was accepting comments from the public through Sept. 2.

The department says it expects that following the comment period, the regulations will be presented in the fall before the Board of Regents, which supervises education in New York state. The board will decide whether to enact the proposal.

Why are people fighting the regulations?

The three groups that sued in the spring argue that the regulations interfere with their institutions’ autonomy. Many private schools have asked parents to send letters to the Department of Education expressing their opposition to the proposal.

Rabbi Chaim Dovid Zwiebel is involved with two organizations that oppose the proposed regulations — Parents for Educational and Religious Liberty in Schools, which represents Orthodox yeshivas, and the Orthodox umbrella group Agudath Israel of America. There are some 160,000 students studying at about 450 yeshiva schools in the state, and most of those schools would need to significantly alter their curriculum under the proposed regulations, he said.

“The large majority of Jewish schools across New York state would have to make significant changes in their daily schedules and de-emphasize considerably the Jewish studies part of the day and, in a certain sense, compromise the very mission that these schools were created to carry forward,” he told JTA.

Zwiebel believes that in cases where schools are not providing proper education in secular subjects, the issue should be dealt with internally or case by case.

“We have to work on those things and get them straight and do it on individual school-by-school basis rather than creating a new aggressive oversight structure that goes, as far as I’m aware, beyond that which exists in any other of the 50 states,” he said.

Meanwhile, the New York State Association of Independent Schools, which represents 196 private schools, says the proposed regulations would infringe on the authority of its members.

The association, which was behind one of the lawsuits, counts among its members a dozen Jewish schools across the denominational spectrum, including SAR Academy, the Ramaz School, the Abraham Joshua Heschel School and the Solomon Schechter School of Manhattan.

“Using a local school board that has no direct legal authority over existing nonpublic schools, to make the final determination about the nonpublic schools’ compliance with NYS education laws, undermines the independence and authority of the independent school’s board of trustees,” its executive director, Mark Luria, told JTA in a statement.

The association has its own accreditation system for vetting member schools.

Who supports the regulations?

Among those in favor is Young Advocates for Fair Education, or Yaffed, the organization behind the 2015 complaint to the city Department of Education.

Yaffed was founded by graduates of the yeshiva system and seeks to improve secular education there. Its executive director, Naftuli Moster, grew up attending Hasidic yeshivas in the Brooklyn neighborhood of Borough Park, and says he graduated barely being able to speak English.

“[The yeshivas] want to continue doing what they’ve been doing, which in our view is mass educational neglect and depriving kids of an education, subjecting them to lives of poverty and dependence on government assistance,” he told JTA.

A 2017 report by his organization claims that up to age 13, the average student at a boys’ Hasidic yeshiva receives, on average, only six hours per week of instruction in secular studies. After that age, they receive no further secular education, the report claims.

Moster says the regulations would help reform a system that he says fails thousands of Orthodox boys by leaving them unprepared to enter the workforce.

“Men coming out of there feel unqualified for anything,” he said. “Barely able to speak the language, [they] don’t have any job skills and can’t get into college either.”

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Read Comments (75)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Aug 14, 2019 at 10:08 AM Anonymous Says:

What is wrong about learning Math, Physics, Chemistry, English, History, in Yeshivahs? Are those subjects considered trefe by the Administrators?

2

 Aug 14, 2019 at 10:36 AM Worzel Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

What is wrong about learning Math, Physics, Chemistry, English, History, in Yeshivahs? Are those subjects considered trefe by the Administrators?

Are you really going to be so obtuse about this? Number one, the government should never be given a say in the curricula of our mosdos. Today you’re talking about history and math, but tomorrow it will be strict guidelines about which parts of society must be taught. Second, mandating four and a half hours of secular studies means almost no time for Judaic studies. If that’s what you’re looking for gezunterheit—send your kid to such a school rather than trying to change our mosdos.

3

 Aug 14, 2019 at 10:54 AM Normal Says:

Reply to #2  
Worzel Says:

Are you really going to be so obtuse about this? Number one, the government should never be given a say in the curricula of our mosdos. Today you’re talking about history and math, but tomorrow it will be strict guidelines about which parts of society must be taught. Second, mandating four and a half hours of secular studies means almost no time for Judaic studies. If that’s what you’re looking for gezunterheit—send your kid to such a school rather than trying to change our mosdos.

And how many Rabbis and teachers do you think the world can support? And if you're not cut out to be a Rabbi or teacher what do you suggest they do then?

4

 Aug 14, 2019 at 11:10 AM gumble Says:

Reply to #3  
Normal Says:

And how many Rabbis and teachers do you think the world can support? And if you're not cut out to be a Rabbi or teacher what do you suggest they do then?

You don't know millionaires even billionaires that never finished grade school?

5

 Aug 14, 2019 at 11:17 AM shimonyehuda Says:

Reply to #2  
Worzel Says:

Are you really going to be so obtuse about this? Number one, the government should never be given a say in the curricula of our mosdos. Today you’re talking about history and math, but tomorrow it will be strict guidelines about which parts of society must be taught. Second, mandating four and a half hours of secular studies means almost no time for Judaic studies. If that’s what you’re looking for gezunterheit—send your kid to such a school rather than trying to change our mosdos.

If any Yeshiva takes government money it must follow government rules.

6

 Aug 14, 2019 at 11:20 AM the facts Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

What is wrong about learning Math, Physics, Chemistry, English, History, in Yeshivahs? Are those subjects considered trefe by the Administrators?

Here is the proposed classes that will be mandated PER WEEK for grades 7 and 8.

For Grades 7-8: the school program must incorporate instruction
in the following subjects:
• mathematics (two units of study);
• English language arts (two units of study);
• social studies (two units of study);
• science (two units of study);
• career and technical education;
• physical education;
• health education (one-half unit of study);
• visual arts (one-half unit of study);
• music (one-half unit of study);
• library and information skills; and
• career development and occupational studies


Plus also rememeber that due to seperation of church and state the govt will not actually fund the resources for any of these programs.

More importantly, if learning all of these subjects guaranteed financial security then all the NYC public school graduates around us would be financially secure. Funnily enough, in the districts representing BP, Williamsburg, etc. there is a bigger percentage of African Americans and Hispanics that are on SNAP then Whites.

Also important, Hashem created a world where there will always be "rich" people and "poor" people ad bias goel tzedek. Hashem created this dichotomy so that "rich" people will give tzedaka and help the "poor" people. More secular education is not going to change the fact that there will always be poor people.

7

 Aug 14, 2019 at 11:22 AM MyThreeCents Says:

Maybe it's only the Chassidish yeshivos that have failed to provide an adequate secular education and probably not all of them. Most frum people seem to succeed in life even with a substandard education as they claim. The government should stay out this. Those who feel their education was lacking can take adult enrichment courses. I don't think it is a majority of frum Yidden who think the Yeshiva system needs improvement, just some disgruntled ones.

8

 Aug 14, 2019 at 11:24 AM Anonymous Says:

I have been following two stories very closely in the last year. And the connection is scary.
The vaccine controversy and the education issue. And the connection to me, seems very closely related one to the other.
Every time there was big movement with the vaccine story, the govenment made advancements on the chinuch issue. While Yiddishe neshamos were being chased out of the back door of our chinuch system we failed to guard the front door. It allowed the government to waltz right on in.
It went hand in hand. If chinuch is important to us, why is the community not bothered by the thousands of yiddishe neshamos which are unable to currently attend school because they are unvaccinated.
We need to come together and show the goyei ha'aretz that chinuch is important to us. Reach out to another yid and fight for his chinuch. Even if you don't agree with his medical choices.

9

 Aug 14, 2019 at 11:29 AM Anonymous Says:

So the alt-yidden hate posters on VIN are always yelling against the millions of Hispanic exiles wanting to come to America. The vast majority work hard, send remittances home and eventually assimilate. And try to remember that all of Florida, Texas and California and parts of 10 other states were Spanish and Mexican territory. Now the Yidden here DON'T WANT TO ASSIMILATE! They don't want an American education. They don't celebrate American holidays. They don't participate in normal American civil life. But they curse out the Hispanics! But its OK for them to not assimilate. TOTAL HIPOCRITES.

10

 Aug 14, 2019 at 11:36 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
Worzel Says:

Are you really going to be so obtuse about this? Number one, the government should never be given a say in the curricula of our mosdos. Today you’re talking about history and math, but tomorrow it will be strict guidelines about which parts of society must be taught. Second, mandating four and a half hours of secular studies means almost no time for Judaic studies. If that’s what you’re looking for gezunterheit—send your kid to such a school rather than trying to change our mosdos.

Your mosdos are archaic; your students must especially be taught English (reading, writing, and speaking). They must learn a trade to make a living. There is nothing wrong with learning part of the day, and making a living the other part.

11

 Aug 14, 2019 at 11:39 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Normal Says:

And how many Rabbis and teachers do you think the world can support? And if you're not cut out to be a Rabbi or teacher what do you suggest they do then?

I'm from Williamsburg every female member in my family that has graduated high school has at least a bachelor degree. My son who is in a headstart program has plenty of licensed teachers and therapists all Williamsburg yingeleit. Today if someone is interested in a college degree there are so many heimisha programs it's it's ridiculous to say that our yeshiva system doesn't give you an education. If your english is bad you might have a harder time, But we live in Brooklyn its not that hard to learn english even as an adult.

12

 Aug 14, 2019 at 11:44 AM fat36 Says:

Reply to #6  
the facts Says:

Here is the proposed classes that will be mandated PER WEEK for grades 7 and 8.

For Grades 7-8: the school program must incorporate instruction
in the following subjects:
• mathematics (two units of study);
• English language arts (two units of study);
• social studies (two units of study);
• science (two units of study);
• career and technical education;
• physical education;
• health education (one-half unit of study);
• visual arts (one-half unit of study);
• music (one-half unit of study);
• library and information skills; and
• career development and occupational studies


Plus also rememeber that due to seperation of church and state the govt will not actually fund the resources for any of these programs.

More importantly, if learning all of these subjects guaranteed financial security then all the NYC public school graduates around us would be financially secure. Funnily enough, in the districts representing BP, Williamsburg, etc. there is a bigger percentage of African Americans and Hispanics that are on SNAP then Whites.

Also important, Hashem created a world where there will always be "rich" people and "poor" people ad bias goel tzedek. Hashem created this dichotomy so that "rich" people will give tzedaka and help the "poor" people. More secular education is not going to change the fact that there will always be poor people.

And just as much as the rich help the poor Hashem Made the poor so the poor will give an opportunity to the rich to for fill the greatest Mitzvah of Charity.That’s why when I give charity I actually thank The one who I’m giving to

13

 Aug 14, 2019 at 11:56 AM ercsd Says:

Reply to #7  
MyThreeCents Says:

Maybe it's only the Chassidish yeshivos that have failed to provide an adequate secular education and probably not all of them. Most frum people seem to succeed in life even with a substandard education as they claim. The government should stay out this. Those who feel their education was lacking can take adult enrichment courses. I don't think it is a majority of frum Yidden who think the Yeshiva system needs improvement, just some disgruntled ones.

If you want the government to stay out of it then you shouldn't get any GOVERNMENT money. New Square has the highest percentage of people taking Federal handouts in the state of NY. That speaks for itself. As the saying goes, "Keep them dumb and keep them frum".

14

 Aug 14, 2019 at 12:13 PM Educated Archy Says:

A couple of points missed over here,
1) This rule would affect even yeshivas with very strong English departments who provide a well grounded education.
2) It would force them to learn subjects against our religion. Currently, the NYS regents already asks a question about the marriage equality act, how to have safe intercourse, evolution etc... Its not what our yiddisha kids should learn
3) It sets a precedent. next step is to force schools to have transgender bathrooms etc...

On the other hand to nay sayers that argue hey we can make a parnasa with no english, they miss two things too
1) the ambitous ones do well irrespectable of education. But the avreage joe shmoe who just wants to be an accountant finds it much more challenging.
2) Kids can't learn gemara a whole day anyhow. By making a system with zero secualr education you raise batlanuim since they don't have zitsfleish
3) Even satamr use to have very tough secular education in the 60's. So don't sell me nonsense how its against any mesora.. The reba zy'a allowed it.'

Bottom line all schools should have a secular education but it should not be mandated by the govt.

15

 Aug 14, 2019 at 12:14 PM Charedi Yid Says:

This whole thing is silly. Almost all Yeshivas and girls school are giving a decent education. The problem is the chassidish yeshivas, and it is extremely sad a kid comes out with were little education and can barley speak the vernacular. I personally know several chassidim that took courses and have great talent, but cannot get outside clients due to their spelling, limited English.and aksent (Note spell check does not help if the misspelled word is stl a word or the centince composure ) - they are too embarrassed to even try. When asked, all of them are upset they were not given a proper education.
So why are all the other Yeshivas and "Catlick" schools against this regulation as they are already complying - the answer is in the article - "threatening their autonomy" and they are very correct about that.
Compromise - summit the curriculum, get inspected just once a year, have a religious exemption to certain topics (you can't religiously exempt English or Math). The Inspection committee should be made up of Religious and non-religious Educators. What problem is with that?
Then leave the Chassidishe schools that don't want to educate their children - to fend for themselves.

16

 Aug 14, 2019 at 12:16 PM Educated Archy Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

So the alt-yidden hate posters on VIN are always yelling against the millions of Hispanic exiles wanting to come to America. The vast majority work hard, send remittances home and eventually assimilate. And try to remember that all of Florida, Texas and California and parts of 10 other states were Spanish and Mexican territory. Now the Yidden here DON'T WANT TO ASSIMILATE! They don't want an American education. They don't celebrate American holidays. They don't participate in normal American civil life. But they curse out the Hispanics! But its OK for them to not assimilate. TOTAL HIPOCRITES.

Where do you get this meshigas that our anonymously is bec we want assimilated people? You make up BS as you go along. We respect those that chose not to assimilate. Just don't come here lechtachila to be on govt programs and drain our school budgets. You'll say we are also on progarms. But we still pay in more than we takke over all. And we didm't come as immigarnts taking progarms. We only take as citizens.

You are really crazy. Go back to your derfel yingele.

17

 Aug 14, 2019 at 12:16 PM triumphinwhitehouse Says:

too bad the aguda once again is caught supporting the very politicians causing this. Satmar believes mightly in the goldenah medina since they prefer Arafat to evil even religious Zionists, well lets see what happens when Omar like becomes president.

18

 Aug 14, 2019 at 12:31 PM Maven Says:

Listen up loser Moster and the BOE,
NOBODY AND NO ONE will tell frum Jews how to educate our children.
We will never teach our dear children "acceptance".
We will never teach our dear children that it is ok to be gay.Feh

We will however teach our children as the Torah tells us among other things that being gay especial openly is disgusting. Feh
We will keep on teaching that we are yes different than society at large.
We are Jews who follow the Torah and the general society are morally corrupt.
When its hot and humid we don't dress half naked as society does.
take it or leave it we will never change.Period.

19

 Aug 14, 2019 at 12:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
Maven Says:

Listen up loser Moster and the BOE,
NOBODY AND NO ONE will tell frum Jews how to educate our children.
We will never teach our dear children "acceptance".
We will never teach our dear children that it is ok to be gay.Feh

We will however teach our children as the Torah tells us among other things that being gay especial openly is disgusting. Feh
We will keep on teaching that we are yes different than society at large.
We are Jews who follow the Torah and the general society are morally corrupt.
When its hot and humid we don't dress half naked as society does.
take it or leave it we will never change.Period.

Yes, tell people who are gay that G-d made them wrong and they're disgusting. Nice religion you've got there.

20

 Aug 14, 2019 at 12:38 PM Steve Says:

Reply to #18  
Maven Says:

Listen up loser Moster and the BOE,
NOBODY AND NO ONE will tell frum Jews how to educate our children.
We will never teach our dear children "acceptance".
We will never teach our dear children that it is ok to be gay.Feh

We will however teach our children as the Torah tells us among other things that being gay especial openly is disgusting. Feh
We will keep on teaching that we are yes different than society at large.
We are Jews who follow the Torah and the general society are morally corrupt.
When its hot and humid we don't dress half naked as society does.
take it or leave it we will never change.Period.

These religious schools with their inferior education earn higher scores on government exams than the public schools do.

21

 Aug 14, 2019 at 12:42 PM realistic1 Says:

Reply to #5  
shimonyehuda Says:

If any Yeshiva takes government money it must follow government rules.

This regulation has nothing to do with government money.

It's a regulation on every school.

22

 Aug 14, 2019 at 12:43 PM ubgeriser Says:

Does the board of education realize that quite a large percentage of their system barely speak or write English. As far as math,they aren't even capable of using a calculator. Now about history, it was well proven over and over in NYC streets even college students dont know who are the Senators of their state. Not to mention they have no clue who is or was the Vice President, or not knowing why we celebrate July4th. So let them take care of the people that look out to their education and leave us educate our kids. We haven't done too badly the past 70 years since we came over from Eorope.

23

 Aug 14, 2019 at 12:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
the facts Says:

Here is the proposed classes that will be mandated PER WEEK for grades 7 and 8.

For Grades 7-8: the school program must incorporate instruction
in the following subjects:
• mathematics (two units of study);
• English language arts (two units of study);
• social studies (two units of study);
• science (two units of study);
• career and technical education;
• physical education;
• health education (one-half unit of study);
• visual arts (one-half unit of study);
• music (one-half unit of study);
• library and information skills; and
• career development and occupational studies


Plus also rememeber that due to seperation of church and state the govt will not actually fund the resources for any of these programs.

More importantly, if learning all of these subjects guaranteed financial security then all the NYC public school graduates around us would be financially secure. Funnily enough, in the districts representing BP, Williamsburg, etc. there is a bigger percentage of African Americans and Hispanics that are on SNAP then Whites.

Also important, Hashem created a world where there will always be "rich" people and "poor" people ad bias goel tzedek. Hashem created this dichotomy so that "rich" people will give tzedaka and help the "poor" people. More secular education is not going to change the fact that there will always be poor people.

What a nut...
Let us deliberately create poor people, because hashem wants the rich people to support the poor and have a big mitzvah. Yet better, why not break some kneecaps and cripple more people so we could do a big mitzvah by pushing them around in a wheel chair.
You are a prime example why we need an education - to think straight!

24

 Aug 14, 2019 at 01:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

I have been following two stories very closely in the last year. And the connection is scary.
The vaccine controversy and the education issue. And the connection to me, seems very closely related one to the other.
Every time there was big movement with the vaccine story, the govenment made advancements on the chinuch issue. While Yiddishe neshamos were being chased out of the back door of our chinuch system we failed to guard the front door. It allowed the government to waltz right on in.
It went hand in hand. If chinuch is important to us, why is the community not bothered by the thousands of yiddishe neshamos which are unable to currently attend school because they are unvaccinated.
We need to come together and show the goyei ha'aretz that chinuch is important to us. Reach out to another yid and fight for his chinuch. Even if you don't agree with his medical choices.

Vaccines that are a health issue (that already a few made an early trip to their graves) and Chinuch education are related. Where does bugs in the water and short dresses come in?

25

 Aug 14, 2019 at 01:06 PM the facts Says:

Reply to #5  
shimonyehuda Says:

If any Yeshiva takes government money it must follow government rules.

Fake news: Yeshivas dont take government money. The government pays for lunch and bussing. Thats it.

26

 Aug 14, 2019 at 01:06 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
Worzel Says:

Are you really going to be so obtuse about this? Number one, the government should never be given a say in the curricula of our mosdos. Today you’re talking about history and math, but tomorrow it will be strict guidelines about which parts of society must be taught. Second, mandating four and a half hours of secular studies means almost no time for Judaic studies. If that’s what you’re looking for gezunterheit—send your kid to such a school rather than trying to change our mosdos.

this includes evolution, being taught about queers, the benefits of drugs, etc. I move first

27

 Aug 14, 2019 at 01:10 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
Charedi Yid Says:

This whole thing is silly. Almost all Yeshivas and girls school are giving a decent education. The problem is the chassidish yeshivas, and it is extremely sad a kid comes out with were little education and can barley speak the vernacular. I personally know several chassidim that took courses and have great talent, but cannot get outside clients due to their spelling, limited English.and aksent (Note spell check does not help if the misspelled word is stl a word or the centince composure ) - they are too embarrassed to even try. When asked, all of them are upset they were not given a proper education.
So why are all the other Yeshivas and "Catlick" schools against this regulation as they are already complying - the answer is in the article - "threatening their autonomy" and they are very correct about that.
Compromise - summit the curriculum, get inspected just once a year, have a religious exemption to certain topics (you can't religiously exempt English or Math). The Inspection committee should be made up of Religious and non-religious Educators. What problem is with that?
Then leave the Chassidishe schools that don't want to educate their children - to fend for themselves.

Thinking about it you are quite right - Most yeshivas and even some Chassiddish schools give a decent english education, Gur, Bobov etc. It is only the ultra Chassoidish Yeshivas that are lacking and let them change

28

 Aug 14, 2019 at 01:27 PM Rangers Goalie Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

What a nut...
Let us deliberately create poor people, because hashem wants the rich people to support the poor and have a big mitzvah. Yet better, why not break some kneecaps and cripple more people so we could do a big mitzvah by pushing them around in a wheel chair.
You are a prime example why we need an education - to think straight!

He is a nut? You are an apikores! This is a gemora! Do even know what that is??

29

 Aug 14, 2019 at 01:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

Yes, tell people who are gay that G-d made them wrong and they're disgusting. Nice religion you've got there.

Hey if you don't like the religion covert. That's what the Jewish religion says. Our Torah is firm about it.

And cut the nonsense re being born that way. no such thing. You made it up. Its PC but its not reality.

30

 Aug 14, 2019 at 01:32 PM Rangers Goalie Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

Yes, tell people who are gay that G-d made them wrong and they're disgusting. Nice religion you've got there.

G-D didn't make them them the wrong way. They made themselves the wrong way!

31

 Aug 14, 2019 at 01:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Remember NYC is run by democrats who are anti religious freedom who consider frum Jews evil for being against their radical anti Torah agenda. You get what you vote for.

32

 Aug 14, 2019 at 01:41 PM ercsd Says:

Reply to #25  
the facts Says:

Fake news: Yeshivas dont take government money. The government pays for lunch and bussing. Thats it.

Textbooks, library books, computers, audiology, occupational therapists, physical therapists, special ed schools, school mentors (aides) to name a few.

33

 Aug 14, 2019 at 01:45 PM Maven Says:

Me think that Rabbi Zwiebel,Rabbi Nidderman with their organization are making a huge mistake by sitting down with the state negotiating etc.

This is the USA where we have freedom of religion and everyone can practice their religion the way they wish. They should just say that we will not budge an inch.No one should talk into how to educate our children. If the city/state will stop the founding so be it
If the Amish can have it their way so should we.

34

 Aug 14, 2019 at 01:47 PM Charedi Yid Says:

Reply to #13  
ercsd Says:

If you want the government to stay out of it then you shouldn't get any GOVERNMENT money. New Square has the highest percentage of people taking Federal handouts in the state of NY. That speaks for itself. As the saying goes, "Keep them dumb and keep them frum".

"Keep them dumb and keep them frum" I think you are missing the point, by the Rebbes keeping them dumb......It is "CONTROL"
By keeping them dependent on the Rebbe and his court Ex; needing the huge discount on School fees, if he loss his meager job he can turn to the Rebbe, can't come up with the money for all his weddings etc - the Rebbe keeps him under tumb, and will show fatherly love as long as he behaves himself properly in the Chassidus. Most Chassidim have some kind of quiet attendance takers at the Tish - keep an eye if he is following the Shita correctly - and the Vadd Ha'Tzenyous makes sure his wife's garments meet the regulations etc.In other words if the Rebbe says jump the Chossid says - how high.
If they were financially independent and did not need to come on to the Rebbe What would happen to the Tish, the Rebbes "special" Mitzvah Tants moves and all the other things the Rebbe does where a crowd gives him pleasure and prestige over other Rebbes
"Keep them dumb and keep them in your control"

35

 Aug 14, 2019 at 02:02 PM Elimelich Says:

Note the exact correlation of those in the lower education Yeshivas and Gov't handouts. 86% of Monroe on living on other peoples money. In New Square (better known a Gov't hand out Square) it is somewhere in the 90%. These records are public knowledge. Should C"V the gov't cannot keep printing fake money,what would happen to these communities.

36

 Aug 14, 2019 at 02:10 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #29  
Anonymous Says:

Hey if you don't like the religion covert. That's what the Jewish religion says. Our Torah is firm about it.

And cut the nonsense re being born that way. no such thing. You made it up. Its PC but its not reality.

Stop it with your dumb conspiracy theories. It is a fact that gay people are gay because they were exposed to a hormone imbalance in utero, which caused the attraction part of their brain to develop as though they were the opposite gender. Nobody would be a gay man on purpose. Why would someone subject himself to oppression, increased risk of STDs, and the inability to conceive a child the right way?

37

 Aug 14, 2019 at 02:14 PM Cixelsyd_Wnosanoy Says:

Overall, the level of simple historical ignorance expressed on the pages on VIN speaks volumes for the need for a better education in our community.

More personally, when my daughters attended Beis Yaakovs in Brooklyn I was shocked both at low writing standards taught and expected of the students, and at history writing assignments that required regurgitation of only basic facts without any questions requiring students to analyze and think.

38

 Aug 14, 2019 at 02:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
gumble Says:

You don't know millionaires even billionaires that never finished grade school?

For every single Billioner you know i have 3.000 3 Thousand who dont make a living because they have no education.. What is your point? If one jumps opf the Brooklyn Bridge and survives everyone should do it? Gaylem

39

 Aug 14, 2019 at 02:21 PM Out Of the Box Says:

Reply to #22  
ubgeriser Says:

Does the board of education realize that quite a large percentage of their system barely speak or write English. As far as math,they aren't even capable of using a calculator. Now about history, it was well proven over and over in NYC streets even college students dont know who are the Senators of their state. Not to mention they have no clue who is or was the Vice President, or not knowing why we celebrate July4th. So let them take care of the people that look out to their education and leave us educate our kids. We haven't done too badly the past 70 years since we came over from Eorope.

Saying that many public school kids don't speak english straight, is a reason not to give our kids a fighting chance in life and a decent education?
The next statement is a serious one - those same public school kids have experienced drugs at age 15 and had several girls by the age 14. Do we want our kids in that same boat? In other words why emulate them only in one field? If we are happy to compare our kid to these public school kids, means, we feel there is what to emulate - then why stop there.

40

 Aug 14, 2019 at 02:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #31  
Anonymous Says:

Remember NYC is run by democrats who are anti religious freedom who consider frum Jews evil for being against their radical anti Torah agenda. You get what you vote for.

Yes "you get what you vote for" Frumme voted for Trump 80% now the liberals are paying back. Frumme voted for Trump. Liberals for AOC. Elections have consequences. Frumme lost. Remember Nixon on tape. F.. the Jews they vote Democrat. Now its the same F.. the Orthodox they vote Trump. Let them go to No Dakota, Louisiana, Wyoming,Iowa etc and have the DEPLORABLES support their large uneducated families. They got their votes so now pay them for it. Section 8, welfare and all the other goodies.

41

 Aug 14, 2019 at 02:26 PM WOW Says:

Reply to #22  
ubgeriser Says:

Does the board of education realize that quite a large percentage of their system barely speak or write English. As far as math,they aren't even capable of using a calculator. Now about history, it was well proven over and over in NYC streets even college students dont know who are the Senators of their state. Not to mention they have no clue who is or was the Vice President, or not knowing why we celebrate July4th. So let them take care of the people that look out to their education and leave us educate our kids. We haven't done too badly the past 70 years since we came over from Eorope.

After all these Yeshivas sending this URGENT letter to fight this horrible decree, it is very surprising to see the backlash here showing the local Jewish community is really not with them. Interesting!

42

 Aug 14, 2019 at 02:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
the facts Says:

Here is the proposed classes that will be mandated PER WEEK for grades 7 and 8.

For Grades 7-8: the school program must incorporate instruction
in the following subjects:
• mathematics (two units of study);
• English language arts (two units of study);
• social studies (two units of study);
• science (two units of study);
• career and technical education;
• physical education;
• health education (one-half unit of study);
• visual arts (one-half unit of study);
• music (one-half unit of study);
• library and information skills; and
• career development and occupational studies


Plus also rememeber that due to seperation of church and state the govt will not actually fund the resources for any of these programs.

More importantly, if learning all of these subjects guaranteed financial security then all the NYC public school graduates around us would be financially secure. Funnily enough, in the districts representing BP, Williamsburg, etc. there is a bigger percentage of African Americans and Hispanics that are on SNAP then Whites.

Also important, Hashem created a world where there will always be "rich" people and "poor" people ad bias goel tzedek. Hashem created this dichotomy so that "rich" people will give tzedaka and help the "poor" people. More secular education is not going to change the fact that there will always be poor people.

Fact is the many if not most of Gedolim in the last 100 years went to PUBLIC SCHOOL and Cheder after them starting with Rav Avigdor Muller. Not a single GADOR was produced by todays Yeshivos (Yet) Got it. Get some facts.

43

 Aug 14, 2019 at 02:28 PM MyThreeCents Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

Yes, tell people who are gay that G-d made them wrong and they're disgusting. Nice religion you've got there.

Hashem didn't make anyone gay. He made being gay an abomination. If someone has gay tendencies, he/she has to fight them like fighting any other yetzer Horah. That is his/her nisayon.

44

 Aug 14, 2019 at 02:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

Yes, tell people who are gay that G-d made them wrong and they're disgusting. Nice religion you've got there.

everybody has their peckleh and being gay is theirs

45

 Aug 14, 2019 at 02:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #29  
Anonymous Says:

Hey if you don't like the religion covert. That's what the Jewish religion says. Our Torah is firm about it.

And cut the nonsense re being born that way. no such thing. You made it up. Its PC but its not reality.

"If you dont like religion covert" If you do like religion please move from these Liberal Sanctuary cities where this will not be allowed any longer (thanks to Trump and AOC) and move to the 29 States where Trump won. Most of those states you will be welcomed by the Evangelists (they might try to convert you) Let us (Liberal Jewish Torah observer Democrats) know how you do with the White Supermacist and Evangelists neighbors. Tzeschem Lesolajm. Our Taxes will go down (Stop supporting LeidigGeirs) Since the Illegal Mexican Invaders are not welcomed in your future Home States start teaching you children how to Clean Toilets and peel potatos etc.

46

 Aug 14, 2019 at 02:52 PM Poncturity Says:

Reply to #37  
Cixelsyd_Wnosanoy Says:

Overall, the level of simple historical ignorance expressed on the pages on VIN speaks volumes for the need for a better education in our community.

More personally, when my daughters attended Beis Yaakovs in Brooklyn I was shocked both at low writing standards taught and expected of the students, and at history writing assignments that required regurgitation of only basic facts without any questions requiring students to analyze and think.

When my bad daughter had to go to public school after being kicked out of Beis Yaakov, she was shocked at the low standard of education there.

47

 Aug 14, 2019 at 02:54 PM Lirch Says:

Reply to #42  
Anonymous Says:

Fact is the many if not most of Gedolim in the last 100 years went to PUBLIC SCHOOL and Cheder after them starting with Rav Avigdor Muller. Not a single GADOR was produced by todays Yeshivos (Yet) Got it. Get some facts.

Shoin a new know it all!

48

 Aug 14, 2019 at 02:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

I have been following two stories very closely in the last year. And the connection is scary.
The vaccine controversy and the education issue. And the connection to me, seems very closely related one to the other.
Every time there was big movement with the vaccine story, the govenment made advancements on the chinuch issue. While Yiddishe neshamos were being chased out of the back door of our chinuch system we failed to guard the front door. It allowed the government to waltz right on in.
It went hand in hand. If chinuch is important to us, why is the community not bothered by the thousands of yiddishe neshamos which are unable to currently attend school because they are unvaccinated.
We need to come together and show the goyei ha'aretz that chinuch is important to us. Reach out to another yid and fight for his chinuch. Even if you don't agree with his medical choices.

I agree with this statement.

49

 Aug 14, 2019 at 03:13 PM ????? Says:

Just wondering?? Wasn't it just a while ago we severely attacked the group from Guartimalla ( I forgot their name) for not educating their children. All the do-gooders, the agudah, magazines, and even other Chassidim attacked them. Why here, when the chassidik Schools are doing the same it is okay - don't they realize their own inconsistencies?

50

 Aug 14, 2019 at 03:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #43  
MyThreeCents Says:

Hashem didn't make anyone gay. He made being gay an abomination. If someone has gay tendencies, he/she has to fight them like fighting any other yetzer Horah. That is his/her nisayon.

"Having gay tendencies" is called being gay. Choosing to be celibate doesn't make a gay person not gay.

51

 Aug 14, 2019 at 03:21 PM annon Says:

Reply to #32  
ercsd Says:

Textbooks, library books, computers, audiology, occupational therapists, physical therapists, special ed schools, school mentors (aides) to name a few.

So your saying that because the government provides audiology services to students who are hard of hearing therefore the government should be able to mandate the curriculum? What does one have to do with the other?

Does secular education somehow make children capable of hearing?


Signed a mother of two children who are hard of hearing.

52

 Aug 14, 2019 at 03:22 PM Yeshiva Parent Says:

Reply to #49  
????? Says:

Just wondering?? Wasn't it just a while ago we severely attacked the group from Guartimalla ( I forgot their name) for not educating their children. All the do-gooders, the agudah, magazines, and even other Chassidim attacked them. Why here, when the chassidik Schools are doing the same it is okay - don't they realize their own inconsistencies?

That is inconsistent with fact. Although there are some yeshivas, which I oppose as much as you do, that do not offer any kind of education, the new proposal also affects those that offer a very good education. At my son's yeshiva, which does not comply with the proposed rules, all of the high school students graduate with a Regents diploma, many of them with honors. Their average score is far above the public schools. Why should they be punished for the other yeshiva's complete lack of a curriculum?

53

 Aug 14, 2019 at 03:35 PM the facts Says:

Reply to #35  
Elimelich Says:

Note the exact correlation of those in the lower education Yeshivas and Gov't handouts. 86% of Monroe on living on other peoples money. In New Square (better known a Gov't hand out Square) it is somewhere in the 90%. These records are public knowledge. Should C"V the gov't cannot keep printing fake money,what would happen to these communities.

Please get your facts straight before posting.

There are 70% of people (not households) under the poverty line in Kiryas Yoel which is equivilant to 17500 people (not households). Now compare that to a poor neighborhood like East New York in Brooklyn where there are 65000 public school educated people (not households) under the poverty line.

The number in Kiryas Joel is a drop in the bucket compared to the hundreds of thousands of low income residents in this city.

Sources: NYC Snap open data, new york city census open data, new york times.

54

 Aug 14, 2019 at 03:37 PM ubgeriser Says:

Reply to 39 . My point was only that the BO .E should realize they cant give the right education for their kids so stay away from us. We can do something on our own if there is a real problem. If there is one.

55

 Aug 14, 2019 at 03:51 PM AH Says:

Reply to #41  
WOW Says:

After all these Yeshivas sending this URGENT letter to fight this horrible decree, it is very surprising to see the backlash here showing the local Jewish community is really not with them. Interesting!

Don't think for a moment that the commenters here represent "the local Jewish community" in any way. Many of them represent no one other than themselves.

56

 Aug 14, 2019 at 03:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

"If you dont like religion covert" If you do like religion please move from these Liberal Sanctuary cities where this will not be allowed any longer (thanks to Trump and AOC) and move to the 29 States where Trump won. Most of those states you will be welcomed by the Evangelists (they might try to convert you) Let us (Liberal Jewish Torah observer Democrats) know how you do with the White Supermacist and Evangelists neighbors. Tzeschem Lesolajm. Our Taxes will go down (Stop supporting LeidigGeirs) Since the Illegal Mexican Invaders are not welcomed in your future Home States start teaching you children how to Clean Toilets and peel potatos etc.

This comment would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. There are plenty of Jewish communities in those 29 (actually 30) states, and the danger from the evangelists and the white supremacists there exists nowhere other than in your fevered imagination. You've lived your entire life in the same four square blocks, and think you know anything about the rest of the country?! (It's evident from your last few words that you don't even know very many other frum parents, otherwise you'd know that plenty of them already teach their children to do these things.)

And as for "Liberal Jewish Torah observer Democrats" - now there's an oxymoron if there ever was one; the first word contradicts the next three.

57

 Aug 14, 2019 at 04:01 PM hashomer can’t spell Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

So the alt-yidden hate posters on VIN are always yelling against the millions of Hispanic exiles wanting to come to America. The vast majority work hard, send remittances home and eventually assimilate. And try to remember that all of Florida, Texas and California and parts of 10 other states were Spanish and Mexican territory. Now the Yidden here DON'T WANT TO ASSIMILATE! They don't want an American education. They don't celebrate American holidays. They don't participate in normal American civil life. But they curse out the Hispanics! But its OK for them to not assimilate. TOTAL HIPOCRITES.

Get lost with your sinas chinam and learn to spell before u criticize anyone! It’s HYPOCRITE.

58

 Aug 14, 2019 at 04:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

So the alt-yidden hate posters on VIN are always yelling against the millions of Hispanic exiles wanting to come to America. The vast majority work hard, send remittances home and eventually assimilate. And try to remember that all of Florida, Texas and California and parts of 10 other states were Spanish and Mexican territory. Now the Yidden here DON'T WANT TO ASSIMILATE! They don't want an American education. They don't celebrate American holidays. They don't participate in normal American civil life. But they curse out the Hispanics! But its OK for them to not assimilate. TOTAL HIPOCRITES.

You seem to hate “alt yidden” (your sick label) as much as you hate a Trump. You’re really a sicko. You’re Hashomer, right!

59

 Aug 14, 2019 at 04:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
Anonymous Says:

Yes, tell people who are gay that G-d made them wrong and they're disgusting. Nice religion you've got there.

Go fight with Torah.

60

 Aug 14, 2019 at 04:07 PM To Yoni/ hashitmer Says:

Reply to #37  
Cixelsyd_Wnosanoy Says:

Overall, the level of simple historical ignorance expressed on the pages on VIN speaks volumes for the need for a better education in our community.

More personally, when my daughters attended Beis Yaakovs in Brooklyn I was shocked both at low writing standards taught and expected of the students, and at history writing assignments that required regurgitation of only basic facts without any questions requiring students to analyze and think.

Uch it’s scary to think someone like you actually has kids in a beis yaakov. I’ll bet they’re ashamed of you as soon as you spew your sick views,

61

 Aug 14, 2019 at 04:09 PM Shame on you Says:

Feh all the self haters come out on issues like this to bash the frum system.

62

 Aug 14, 2019 at 04:15 PM hashomer Says:

Reply to #58  
Anonymous Says:

You seem to hate “alt yidden” (your sick label) as much as you hate a Trump. You’re really a sicko. You’re Hashomer, right!

I barely comment anymore. Find me on r/judaism.

63

 Aug 14, 2019 at 04:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #59  
Anonymous Says:

Go fight with Torah.

The Torah doesn't say there's anything wrong with being how G-d made you.

64

 Aug 14, 2019 at 04:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

Stop it with your dumb conspiracy theories. It is a fact that gay people are gay because they were exposed to a hormone imbalance in utero, which caused the attraction part of their brain to develop as though they were the opposite gender. Nobody would be a gay man on purpose. Why would someone subject himself to oppression, increased risk of STDs, and the inability to conceive a child the right way?

Its a PC fact not a real fact.

Why choose that lifestyle? Well its alluring to some. nobody said its not a "Taiva". There is an allure like anything else. besides as a man I'll tell you that communication with a female does require skill. Its easier to connect with another man.

65

 Aug 14, 2019 at 04:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #52  
Yeshiva Parent Says:

That is inconsistent with fact. Although there are some yeshivas, which I oppose as much as you do, that do not offer any kind of education, the new proposal also affects those that offer a very good education. At my son's yeshiva, which does not comply with the proposed rules, all of the high school students graduate with a Regents diploma, many of them with honors. Their average score is far above the public schools. Why should they be punished for the other yeshiva's complete lack of a curriculum?

Perfect Question - Why should all the Yeshivas suffer because of a few rotten apples. They would not have started this mess if not for the rotten apples.
That is what the normal Yeshivas should do - negotiate on behalf of the 95% good yeshivas and come to a fair curriculum that most already meet.
Leave the rotten apples to fight for themselves - Why protect them

66

 Aug 14, 2019 at 04:40 PM Educated Archy Says:

Reply to #40  
Anonymous Says:

Yes "you get what you vote for" Frumme voted for Trump 80% now the liberals are paying back. Frumme voted for Trump. Liberals for AOC. Elections have consequences. Frumme lost. Remember Nixon on tape. F.. the Jews they vote Democrat. Now its the same F.. the Orthodox they vote Trump. Let them go to No Dakota, Louisiana, Wyoming,Iowa etc and have the DEPLORABLES support their large uneducated families. They got their votes so now pay them for it. Section 8, welfare and all the other goodies.

So we shouldn't vote what works best for us? I don't get your point. How do you come up with such weird arguments?

67

 Aug 14, 2019 at 05:21 PM commonsense99 Says:

Reply to #32  
ercsd Says:

Textbooks, library books, computers, audiology, occupational therapists, physical therapists, special ed schools, school mentors (aides) to name a few.

Hey 88 % of NYC public school 8th grader are not at grade level in science, how about bringing them up to grade level first being the your so proud of the fact the your a NYC public school grad

68

 Aug 14, 2019 at 05:28 PM AH Says:

Reply to #63  
Anonymous Says:

The Torah doesn't say there's anything wrong with being how G-d made you.

Azoy? So if you were made as a kleptomaniac, then there's nothing wrong with stealing? If you were made with a high sex drive, then there's nothing wrong with being promiscuous? There is a vast difference between having a certain tendency, and acting on it. "Man is born as a wild donkey" (Job 11:12), and it's his or her life's mission to become a human being, who can control his or her drives.

69

 Aug 14, 2019 at 06:10 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #68  
AH Says:

Azoy? So if you were made as a kleptomaniac, then there's nothing wrong with stealing? If you were made with a high sex drive, then there's nothing wrong with being promiscuous? There is a vast difference between having a certain tendency, and acting on it. "Man is born as a wild donkey" (Job 11:12), and it's his or her life's mission to become a human being, who can control his or her drives.

If you were made a kleptomaniac, there's nothing wrong with being one.

70

 Aug 14, 2019 at 06:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #68  
AH Says:

Azoy? So if you were made as a kleptomaniac, then there's nothing wrong with stealing? If you were made with a high sex drive, then there's nothing wrong with being promiscuous? There is a vast difference between having a certain tendency, and acting on it. "Man is born as a wild donkey" (Job 11:12), and it's his or her life's mission to become a human being, who can control his or her drives.

A gay person is someone who has a drive to be with someone of the same gender. Having the "tendency" is what defines a gay person, not acting on it.

71

 Aug 14, 2019 at 06:50 PM AH Says:

Reply to #69  
Anonymous Says:

If you were made a kleptomaniac, there's nothing wrong with being one.

Fine, then, leave your door open, so all the kleptomaniacs can come over to take your stuff. You won't mind, because "there's nothing wrong" with it, right? Or is it that you're generous only with other people's possessions?

72

 Aug 14, 2019 at 07:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #71  
AH Says:

Fine, then, leave your door open, so all the kleptomaniacs can come over to take your stuff. You won't mind, because "there's nothing wrong" with it, right? Or is it that you're generous only with other people's possessions?

Being a kleptomaniac is not the same as stealing.

73

 Aug 14, 2019 at 07:22 PM AH Says:

Reply to #70  
Anonymous Says:

A gay person is someone who has a drive to be with someone of the same gender. Having the "tendency" is what defines a gay person, not acting on it.

And in that case, as commenter #43 wrote, their nisayon is to overcome that drive and not give in to it. Someone who does that is indeed a hero, though one known only to G-d.

74

 Aug 14, 2019 at 08:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #73  
AH Says:

And in that case, as commenter #43 wrote, their nisayon is to overcome that drive and not give in to it. Someone who does that is indeed a hero, though one known only to G-d.

And if they do that, they are still gay.

75

 Aug 15, 2019 at 09:26 PM Haimov Says:

Reply to #4  
gumble Says:

You don't know millionaires even billionaires that never finished grade school?

they exist only in your sweat nap during your hard working day

76

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