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Jerusalem - Kabbalist Rabbi: Birth Control Damages Household Income

Published on: July 10, 2009 10:26 AM
By:  Ynet
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 Rabbi David Batzri (Lior Mizrachi / BauBau) Rabbi David Batzri (Lior Mizrachi / BauBau)

Jerusalem - Have at least 12 children, do not use birth control, and continue having children after 40. This is the formula for overcoming sterility and long-term bachelorhood in the Religious Zionism movement put forth by renowned Rabbi David Batzri.

In a women’s assembly in Jerusalem held Thursday in Jerusalem, the rabbi asserted that “a girl who wishes to marry must take upon herself already on the first date an obligation to have no less than 12 children.” In addition, he encouraged women to put pressure on one another not to delay pregnancy after getting married and not to wait long in between births.

The rabbi’s remarks were reported by Kol Hai radio correspondent Dvora Ginzburg.
Rabbi Batzri, a respected kabbalist and head of Nahar Shalom Yeshiva, participated in a prayer assembly held in the Old City’s Jewish Quarter and at the Western Wall together with about one thousand single women searching for “respectable mating.” Under the title “Women in Wait,” they heard tips for getting themselves out of their distressful situation.

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The rabbi claimed that using birth control damages household income. He said, “When you use control methods, you stop abundance. When you see a woman whose youngest child is three, this means that she has been using control methods for three years. Convince her not to do this.”

‘Don’t believe the doctors’

The rabbi also spoke on the issue of abortions. “Doctors are liars,” he said. “Don’t believe them. They tell you that the fetus is not healthy. This is only to protect themselves from lawsuits. It is forbidden to listen to doctors. Women who have consulted with me and didn’t abort their child have the most healthy and righteous children.”
Rabbi Batzri added, “Even at the age of 40 and up, it is possible to give birth, and it isn’t dangerous.”
During the gathering, prayers were held for the participating women. Later, they also heard a lecture from Rebbetzin Yemima Mizrahi, whose lessons and talks have become increasingly popular in recent years.

“When a girl goes on a date, she doesn’t come alone, but says to the Holy One, blessed be He, ‘Come along! We’re going on a date,’” said Mizrahi. She later grumbled that “the only exercise single girls do is moving the mouse on Dosi-Date (a popular religious dating website).”
Mizrahi also claimed that women having a hard time finding a match have issues respecting their parents or tend to respect their fathers more than their mothers.
Mizrahi said she was recently asked during a radio interview what her opinion is on desperate single girls who “do forbidden things.” She said the question sorrowed her, and responded, “This is a fringe phenomenon. Most girls are growing stronger, especially after the Gush Katif evacuation.”



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1

 Jul 10, 2009 at 09:42 AM Anonymous Says:

How many children did you have and how many years imbetween where they Rabbi? It is very insensitive to say that if a person's yougest child is three they must have been on birth control - Does the Rabbi know if the women perhaps had miscarriages or any other complicating issues? It is no ones buisness to stick thier noses into the lives of people so but out and take care of other problems like men and boys smoking!!!! That surely wreaks havoc on parnassah, shalom bayis and income!

2

 Jul 10, 2009 at 09:35 AM shmilku Says:

if we let others decide for us what to do then we are like robots no better rabbi batzri wants to control peoples minds its ludicrous its a no brainer you have free will and someone wants to dictate to you youre life that you listen to youre inner self whats good for you you know best he the rabbi doesnt make a living fo you you have to strugle for youre own sustanence have self worth and do what right for you

3

 Jul 10, 2009 at 09:35 AM Dag Says:

It takes extraordinary parents to raise twelve children. With thinking like this, is it any wonder that there are such huge social problems in the community?

4

 Jul 10, 2009 at 09:48 AM yeh yeh yeh Says:

I bet he has factual data to support his comment! He has done thorough research and thru that has come to the conclusion that larger families have more income!

5

 Jul 10, 2009 at 09:48 AM Anonymous Says:

It is a mitzvah to have a girl and boy no where does it say the more the merrier and have a nervous breakdown

6

 Jul 10, 2009 at 09:47 AM Little Masmid Says:

Sorry. This is a crock. There are many rabbonim who are mattir birth control. The best form is tuition.

7

 Jul 10, 2009 at 09:46 AM Anonymous Says:

What?!?! someone who's child is 3 and doesn't have another convince them to have more! I wish I was able to some times it's not as easy as people think I wish it was so easy to get pregnant. In the times of the Gemara women nursed their babies until they were five and they were unable to get pregnant for the first 2-21/2 years

8

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:25 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Little Masmid Says:

Sorry. This is a crock. There are many rabbonim who are mattir birth control. The best form is tuition.

A rov is not a mekubal. Rabbonim delve in halocha. Mekubalim are different. Besides halocha, they delve into the hidden and the Zohar haKadosh. HoRav Batzri is a very well-known and respected individual. Don't take his words lightly.

9

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:33 AM A Laugh Says:

this fine man says the doctors are full of bulloney; he is right. i know, however, someone else who is full of bulloney (one of many).

10

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:33 AM Anonymous Says:

Interesting, last time I checked the Avos and Emahos didn't have 12 children each. Even Penina, Chana's "tzara" "only" had 10 and that was considered a lot. It is very unhealthy for a woman to be pregnant closer than 18 months apart (that means children are at least 2.5 years apart), in the times of the gemara 2 years was the norm until fertility returned (so children are close to 3 years apart). Not to mention mental health. I find it interesting that women are required to work full time to bring a parnassa in so that their husbands can learn, but also somehow supposed to deliver 12+ children and keep a house while keeping their sanity. Whatever. This is why we all have our own rabbonim.

11

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:33 AM Agent Emmess Says:

Is Rabbi Batzril offering to pay tuition bills for everyone?

12

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:31 AM Anonymous Says:

If a woman is looking for a man to marry who will be able to support 12 or more children, then it is likely that she will stay single forever and have no children.

13

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:30 AM fed up Says:

BTW if i remember correctly the last time i checked the chumash i dont remember seeing Adam Harishon, Avraham Avinu , Yitzchok Avinu, Moshe Rabbeinu, Aahron Hakohen, should i go on and on they didnt have 12 Children. if it was good for them then it is good for us and they did have wealth without having 12 children.......

14

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:29 AM Shua Says:

Reply to #2  
shmilku Says:

if we let others decide for us what to do then we are like robots no better rabbi batzri wants to control peoples minds its ludicrous its a no brainer you have free will and someone wants to dictate to you youre life that you listen to youre inner self whats good for you you know best he the rabbi doesnt make a living fo you you have to strugle for youre own sustanence have self worth and do what right for you

>shmilku said: "listen to your inner self, whats good for you... you know best."

>> On that's brilliant...WE know best...a true Torah value.

~ Forget that the Ribbono Shel Olam, our individual Creator, knows us better than we know ourselves. The emes: He and only He knows what's best for us. ~ Forget that when we listen to our inner selves we are often listening to the Yetzer Hara, whispering into our ears to derail us from our our Avodas Hashem.
~ Forget that if we want a Torah-true Eretz Yisrael, we need to populate it with Torah-true Jews. It's somewhat hypocritical to complain about the large Chiloni population and the increasing Arab population while using birth control, now isn't it?
~ Forget that any heter to use birth control must be determined on an individual case basis. Rabbi Batzri would not deny that. He is so obviously speaking in general terms.
~ Forget that one boy and one girl is only a 'minimum' to fulfill the mitzvah of p'ru u'rvu. But that's not going to make us as numerous as the stars of the heavens as Avraham Avinu was promised, now is it?
~ And finally, forget about bitachon and emunas Hashem...that He provides for every family regardless of its size, according to His determination...not ours.

15

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:21 AM Been there Says:

Reply to #4  
yeh yeh yeh Says:

I bet he has factual data to support his comment! He has done thorough research and thru that has come to the conclusion that larger families have more income!

The rov is talking through a Torah viewpoint. I have been to see a mekubal due to various issues in my life, a major one being parnossah. He asked if I was practicing birth control and I said yes. He told me to stop doing it because if I cut myself off from Hashem, he'll cut himself off from me (not his exact words, but words to that effect)--no siyata d'shmaya in other words. I listened and had more children. B'H today I can say parnassoh is better than ever and I'm so happy I had more children. When we listen to daas Torah, it can only be good!

16

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:19 AM Dave L Says:

“When you see a woman whose youngest child is three, this means that she has been using control methods for three years. Convince her not to do this”

Isn’t Rav Batzri advising people to act like Penina, who was punished for bothering Chana about the fact that Chana didn’t have children? Various medical conditions can render a woman infertile. Also, many women have to use birth control because of medical conditions which make getting pregnant very dangerous for them. Women may not like having to explain to nosy people exactly why they can’t have more children and the whole subject can be very sore, hurtful, and embarrassing to them.

17

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:16 AM Gefilte Fish Says:

Reply to #3  
Dag Says:

It takes extraordinary parents to raise twelve children. With thinking like this, is it any wonder that there are such huge social problems in the community?

None more that any other community.

18

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:14 AM Anonymous Says:

All the posters don't understand what this rabbi means if a rabbi has more kids HIS income is larger everytime he marries off a kid he goes collecting in the USA

19

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:10 AM jewinjerusalem Says:

"Doctors are liars," he said. "Don't believe them.

Isn't the Rabbi also known as a liar? Over 10 years ago there was a story about rav Batzri taking a dibbuk out of a woman. In the end it was found that the whole thing was staged.
Of course I wouldn't believe all the details in the story either.

20

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:09 AM Anonymous Says:

I don't want to sound disrespectful, but does Rabbi David Batzri have at least 12 children himself? If so, how does he provide for them? Perhaps after moshiach comes and we won't have to worry about financial matters, then having 12 or more children might make sense. For now, some of us can't even afford marriage and one child.

21

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:07 AM u gotta love it! Says:

Hashem Oiz L'Amo Yiten!!

22

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:37 AM Anonymous Says:

HA! he is more machmir than the heimishe americans ion boro park/ monsey / lakewood!!!!!!!!!!!!!

23

 Jul 10, 2009 at 09:58 AM A Says:

Does this mean that those families that have 12 children don't need our help for their tuition, food, housing costs any more? I expect to have far less requests for tzedaka from that sector of the community. Cool.

24

 Jul 10, 2009 at 09:57 AM Anonymous Says:

i did not read the whole thing but i think something is lose up their in the rabbis head.

25

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:54 AM Anonymous Says:

articles like this are depressing and make us seem backwards.

26

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:53 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
fed up Says:

BTW if i remember correctly the last time i checked the chumash i dont remember seeing Adam Harishon, Avraham Avinu , Yitzchok Avinu, Moshe Rabbeinu, Aahron Hakohen, should i go on and on they didnt have 12 Children. if it was good for them then it is good for us and they did have wealth without having 12 children.......

i doubt it was cuz they where using birth control.

27

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:50 AM Torah Truth Says:

Good luck to him and anyone who wishes to follow him. I was told just the opposite from HaRav Yaakov Kammentsky ZT”L. He said you see in the Torah that they were Meinik (nursed) their children for 2 years, a form of birth control. Therefore Rav Yaakov held that children should be spaced 3 years apart (conception after a 2 year pause). Where are Gedolim like Rav Yaakov today???

28

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:49 AM anon Says:

Can he cure infertility?

29

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:49 AM shimon Says:

Please, consult your Rav (Moreh Halacha) before applying ANY kabbalistic advice.

30

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:49 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
Anonymous Says:

i did not read the whole thing but i think something is lose up their in the rabbis head.

I am afraid that he is in a fight with the Arab population... Rabbi please be specific!

31

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:46 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #19  
jewinjerusalem Says:

"Doctors are liars," he said. "Don't believe them.

Isn't the Rabbi also known as a liar? Over 10 years ago there was a story about rav Batzri taking a dibbuk out of a woman. In the end it was found that the whole thing was staged.
Of course I wouldn't believe all the details in the story either.

If someone would be really sick would you go to this rabbi, or to the doctor - the secular one?!!

32

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:43 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
shmilku Says:

if we let others decide for us what to do then we are like robots no better rabbi batzri wants to control peoples minds its ludicrous its a no brainer you have free will and someone wants to dictate to you youre life that you listen to youre inner self whats good for you you know best he the rabbi doesnt make a living fo you you have to strugle for youre own sustanence have self worth and do what right for you

"You have free will?" I don't know about you, but I have a Torah that I have to obey, absolutly no free will, one should always ask a prominent Rav for guidance.

33

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:41 AM Anonymous Says:

That's why people have no more respect for rabbis of today! Should I say for all my neighbours - yantes - how much I suffered the lest three years! Shame.

34

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:40 AM still waiting Says:

he says woman should have a baby right away, not every one can, some people it takes couple of years i hope we all Daven for one another. my we all be zochah to it soon.

35

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:39 AM eli Says:

He's 100% right. You see so many wealthy chassidim with large families.
Most women who have breakdowns would of had them regardless of how many/few children they have.
And don't challenge him by saying who will pay tution, YOU will.

36

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:39 AM ah nechtigeh tug Says:

Funny,
It seems to me that it is always the yerushalmys with 16 kids who are here collecting to make weddings and to get out of debt...where is the abundant parnosa? Also, who said its a mitzvah to have more kids than you are able to handle financially and emotionally??? How many times do we need to hear about nervous breakdowns and fathers of large families dying of heart attacks and the like before we get it??

37

 Jul 10, 2009 at 09:53 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #4  
yeh yeh yeh Says:

I bet he has factual data to support his comment! He has done thorough research and thru that has come to the conclusion that larger families have more income!

because larger families can collect more money from the govt.

38

 Jul 10, 2009 at 09:51 AM Anonymous Says:

When you see a woman whose youngest child is three, this means that she has been using control methods for three years."
with all due respect, just because a women's child is three years old DOES not mean she is on birth controll! there are many times when a women has a hard time having a second child! often she may be on treatment to try to have a nother. in addition the added pressure of having children right away is what causes one to have a hard time having a child. and lastly not every mom is able to have a dozen children as nice as it is. someone has to take care of the children and marry them off.i think the issuue should be as long as one can manage so many children that is how many children she should have.

39

 Jul 10, 2009 at 09:50 AM Anonymous Says:

getting an education and jobs actually increases income! try that!

40

 Jul 10, 2009 at 11:26 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #35  
eli Says:

He's 100% right. You see so many wealthy chassidim with large families.
Most women who have breakdowns would of had them regardless of how many/few children they have.
And don't challenge him by saying who will pay tution, YOU will.

Yes... and many are sitting in jail too... what's your point?

41

 Jul 10, 2009 at 11:25 AM Lekish Bear Says:

According to the rabbi, can one practice birth control if she already has 12 children?

42

 Jul 10, 2009 at 11:10 AM chacham Lazer Says:

Reply to #6  
Little Masmid Says:

Sorry. This is a crock. There are many rabbonim who are mattir birth control. The best form is tuition.

Yes u r right lower the tuition and we will have 2dozen evry year. Tuition is the #1 killer in the entier jewish community

43

 Jul 10, 2009 at 11:03 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
fed up Says:

BTW if i remember correctly the last time i checked the chumash i dont remember seeing Adam Harishon, Avraham Avinu , Yitzchok Avinu, Moshe Rabbeinu, Aahron Hakohen, should i go on and on they didnt have 12 Children. if it was good for them then it is good for us and they did have wealth without having 12 children.......

And Ya'akov Avinu had 12 (or possibly 24 -- the wives for his sons) by 4 wives!

44

 Jul 10, 2009 at 11:01 AM Shulamit Says:

Reply to #7  
Anonymous Says:

What?!?! someone who's child is 3 and doesn't have another convince them to have more! I wish I was able to some times it's not as easy as people think I wish it was so easy to get pregnant. In the times of the Gemara women nursed their babies until they were five and they were unable to get pregnant for the first 2-21/2 years

I had trouble getting pregnant and had at least 2 miscarriages over the years. That remark that someone whose youngest is 3 must have been using birth control is probably the most insensitive and closed-minded thing I've ever heard. And to encourage people to tell anyone whose youngest is 3 to stop using birth control is extremely insensitive, and causes pain on those who are having trouble conceiving.

Pregnancy after 40 has been shown to be dangerous for both the mother & baby. The incidence of birth defects, especially Downs Syndrome, rises sharply when the mother's age is over 35. Does this rav have any answers for the parents of a severely disabled child other than "you must have been ovair on some halacha"? (I know, not all Downs kids are severely disabled).

Telling people not to listen to doctors is absurd: because of prenatal care, people are able to have viable pregnancies and give birth to healthy children. Not all doctors are in it for the money or telling patients to do/not do something as a means of covering their behinds. Most of them have the patient's best interest in mind.

45

 Jul 10, 2009 at 10:58 AM RJ Says:

My heart swells with pride that we have gedolim like this!!!! Mi K'amacha Yisrael!!!

46

 Jul 10, 2009 at 11:59 AM Rippin Pinchas Says:

Reply to #11  
Agent Emmess Says:

Is Rabbi Batzril offering to pay tuition bills for everyone?

I guess if you see everything through the view that whatever is directly in front of you that is what you see and nothing else, then you have a good point. However, history demonstrates that such a purview is wrong.

As the ba'alei mussar say, based on your medraga of emunah that is how much hishtadlus you must do. High emunah, less hishtadlus, and visa versa.

47

 Jul 10, 2009 at 11:47 AM Anonymous Says:

I think this statement by Harav Batzri shlita is politically motivated. I suspect that the world economic downturn is forcing people (of the Israeli persuasion) to limit family size because "donations" are plummeting in the same way the stock market is plummeting. American "largesse" cannot be expected to go on forever, especially since mortgage foreclosures are up and business insolvencies are up and credit card delinquencies are skyrocketing. Something has to give.

And regarding his comment about physicians, I have regarded all of the doctors I have used throughout my life as "shlichim" or "malachim" and completely trustworthy, moral and decent. (And this was before I became religious!) No matter their race, religion or ethnicity. Calling them "liars" is dangerous, especially since most Haredim have limited education and are likely to believe him.

48

 Jul 10, 2009 at 11:43 AM destro613 Says:

my rabbi always says a mikubal is called that since they mikabel your gelt!
Rabbi's like this make me wonder if we are practicing the same religion as the did 2000 years ago?

49

 Jul 10, 2009 at 11:40 AM Just Thinking Says:

The Talmud in Ta'anit forbids having children during a drought, unless you are childless. Seems to imply that if you can't afford it don't do it!

50

 Jul 10, 2009 at 11:35 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

A rov is not a mekubal. Rabbonim delve in halocha. Mekubalim are different. Besides halocha, they delve into the hidden and the Zohar haKadosh. HoRav Batzri is a very well-known and respected individual. Don't take his words lightly.

kabalah is NOT halacha

51

 Jul 10, 2009 at 11:33 AM Anonymous Says:

That's not the way of fighting with the Muslims. Rather thich the tout to be educated and be superior with knowledge and not with 12 kids ready to explode.

52

 Jul 10, 2009 at 12:04 PM rivka Says:

The Lubavitcher Rebbe also said that women should not practice birth control and having as many children as Hashem gives a person is the key to a happy marriage, shalom bayit and all the blessings. He clearly said that practicing birth control can chasve shalom later affect one's ability to have children when one "decides" they would now like to have more....
The idea is to just have as many children as one is blessed with from Hashem and to avoid birth control unless there are real medical reasons.
This is the Torah's opinion and not something to argue about.

53

 Jul 10, 2009 at 12:10 PM Anonymous Says:

i have a lot of respect for what mekubolim say but this sounds a little narrow minded. I think the story got a little twisted by the media.

54

 Jul 10, 2009 at 12:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Having children after you're Mikayem the Mtzvah of Peru U'Revu is, according to all Rishonim, a Midas Chassidus.

55

 Jul 10, 2009 at 12:25 PM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #54  
Anonymous Says:

Having children after you're Mikayem the Mtzvah of Peru U'Revu is, according to all Rishonim, a Midas Chassidus.

This is not correct. Ulerev al tanach yadecha is bepashtus a mitzva derabanan.

56

 Jul 10, 2009 at 12:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #52  
rivka Says:

The Lubavitcher Rebbe also said that women should not practice birth control and having as many children as Hashem gives a person is the key to a happy marriage, shalom bayit and all the blessings. He clearly said that practicing birth control can chasve shalom later affect one's ability to have children when one "decides" they would now like to have more....
The idea is to just have as many children as one is blessed with from Hashem and to avoid birth control unless there are real medical reasons.
This is the Torah's opinion and not something to argue about.

that is not what the rebbe said. the rebbe said he was against family planning, e.g. planning to "space" the children to make things easier on the parents.


57

 Jul 10, 2009 at 12:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #52  
rivka Says:

The Lubavitcher Rebbe also said that women should not practice birth control and having as many children as Hashem gives a person is the key to a happy marriage, shalom bayit and all the blessings. He clearly said that practicing birth control can chasve shalom later affect one's ability to have children when one "decides" they would now like to have more....
The idea is to just have as many children as one is blessed with from Hashem and to avoid birth control unless there are real medical reasons.
This is the Torah's opinion and not something to argue about.

If we all have more children than we can offered, at least the Jewish Press will be making a lot of money on those ads that plead for us to donate money for a family of 12-40 children who are fatherless.

58

 Jul 10, 2009 at 12:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #52  
rivka Says:

The Lubavitcher Rebbe also said that women should not practice birth control and having as many children as Hashem gives a person is the key to a happy marriage, shalom bayit and all the blessings. He clearly said that practicing birth control can chasve shalom later affect one's ability to have children when one "decides" they would now like to have more....
The idea is to just have as many children as one is blessed with from Hashem and to avoid birth control unless there are real medical reasons.
This is the Torah's opinion and not something to argue about.

The reason why you have Shalom bayis is because the husband is never home. He needs to work to support all his children,

The torah;s opinion is to have a boy and a girl who can beget another boy and a girl. Not more.

59

 Jul 10, 2009 at 12:16 PM A Says:

Reply to #35  
eli Says:

He's 100% right. You see so many wealthy chassidim with large families.
Most women who have breakdowns would of had them regardless of how many/few children they have.
And don't challenge him by saying who will pay tution, YOU will.

And you see even more poor Chassidic families that live on assistance from both the government and other sources.

60

 Jul 10, 2009 at 12:28 PM David Says:

Family planning advice, whether from a rabbi or a doctor, should be made to individual families, not as uneducated and ill-informed doctrinaire pronouncements.

61

 Jul 10, 2009 at 12:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
fed up Says:

BTW if i remember correctly the last time i checked the chumash i dont remember seeing Adam Harishon, Avraham Avinu , Yitzchok Avinu, Moshe Rabbeinu, Aahron Hakohen, should i go on and on they didnt have 12 Children. if it was good for them then it is good for us and they did have wealth without having 12 children.......

Possible correction: Check Midrash, etc. Adam had MANY more kids
Avraham Avinu as well. He had more kids with Hagar when she returned after Sarahs passing. He later sent the children (plural) to " the East with gifts"

not sure of the details but Adam and Av. Avinu not good examples of men who had only a few kids.

62

 Jul 10, 2009 at 12:39 PM Anonymous Says:

who is this guy....he looks cookey

63

 Jul 10, 2009 at 12:37 PM Anonymous Says:

The women at the assembly were looking for "respectable mating". What does the mitzva of pru urvu have to do with women looking to get married? Is it that people have an attitude about having children which is causing people to have an attitude or problems with getting married?

64

 Jul 10, 2009 at 12:59 PM Not against bif families but.... Says:

I nursed my kids, but, it didn't work as birth control, and then I couldn't nurse the baby because I got pregnant. My rov told me for the baby's sake to space the children or I wouldn't be able to nurse them. Also for a woman's sake and the family's sake, some women just can't manage with one baby after the other. It is all very individual and personal and this rov can't just make a statement like this and include every woman. I'm all for big families, but not if it takes a toll on the mother's health and the family's well being.

65

 Jul 10, 2009 at 12:55 PM Anonymous Says:

I do not see this Rabbi volunteering to contribute anything to the cause.; Some people cannot afford 12 children. A few years ago a young woman went public, she had 6 kids, the last 3 were triplets, the other 3 all in diapers, she was going nuts and was ready to kill herself. Well, how can you just expect one person to just keep on giving birth!! Whose life is more important?? The entire community came together to care for those children because the rabbis ordered it!! She had to go public to get the help!! Nobody -- not even her neighbors helped her!! Now, this rabbi, wants women to have 12 children, let him care for them for one day-- 24 hours and let him see how EASY it is!! When our kids were small, and I left them with my husband for a few hours, he was never so glad to see me back== The red rug would be rolled out!!

66

 Jul 10, 2009 at 12:55 PM jay Says:

Reply to #15  
Been there Says:

The rov is talking through a Torah viewpoint. I have been to see a mekubal due to various issues in my life, a major one being parnossah. He asked if I was practicing birth control and I said yes. He told me to stop doing it because if I cut myself off from Hashem, he'll cut himself off from me (not his exact words, but words to that effect)--no siyata d'shmaya in other words. I listened and had more children. B'H today I can say parnassoh is better than ever and I'm so happy I had more children. When we listen to daas Torah, it can only be good!

You r 100% right if u listen to das torah you can't go wrong!! An I am sure if someone really needs to birth control he will get a heter from any rabbi
An of someone is worry about parnusa Hasham is the one who is giving he know exactly how much u need

67

 Jul 10, 2009 at 01:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #63  
Anonymous Says:

The women at the assembly were looking for "respectable mating". What does the mitzva of pru urvu have to do with women looking to get married? Is it that people have an attitude about having children which is causing people to have an attitude or problems with getting married?

well, I think that explains everything! He's talking about mating, we're talking about marriage & family. Mating is what animals do. Human women are people (despite what the Muslims & some far-right-wingers may think) -- not brood mares! If popping out babies all the time were the only reason for single women to get married, then there wouldn't be a "shidduch crisis". Women, just marry the first guy that comes along and start popping 'em out!

68

 Jul 10, 2009 at 01:20 PM Anonymous Says:

The issue of birth control is a shaila each one has to ask their own Rav, not one for the blogs. However;
1.If one decides they should have children based on what they can afford, maybe they shouldn't have any children. Ask all of the Maddoff victims and others such as the rubashkins who thought they were set, and lost everything overnight.
2.anyone who has learned seforim in emuna, such as sha'ar habitochon in the Chovas halevovos, understands that parnassa in entirely in the hands of the ribono shel olam.
3.are trips with the family to florida, pesach hotels ect. more important than having children?
4. If the people in mitzraim and during other difficult times had made such cheshbonos, there wouldn't be a Klal yisroel today.
The list goes on and on. at the same time, no one knows what is doing by someone else, and we cannot be too careful in making sure not to CV hurt or embarrass someone, as there are many who cannot have children, even after having, and their pain is deep enough without our ading to it.

69

 Jul 10, 2009 at 01:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #54  
Anonymous Says:

Having children after you're Mikayem the Mtzvah of Peru U'Revu is, according to all Rishonim, a Midas Chassidus.

There was Tanna that said that we are suffering so much so we should stop having more children than we need, and Hashem won't have anyone else to torture, and they answered no because we only need 1 boy and 1 girl to fulfill the basic minimum, but really we need more. The Gemara then asks how would only having 2 help? They answer that only 2 is not enough to keep us b/c there is infertility, people that ch"v can't find a shidduch etc., and 1 boy and one girl, do not necessarily equal 1 boy snd one girl.

70

 Jul 10, 2009 at 01:31 PM tzoorba Says:

Reply to #64  
Not against bif families but.... Says:

I nursed my kids, but, it didn't work as birth control, and then I couldn't nurse the baby because I got pregnant. My rov told me for the baby's sake to space the children or I wouldn't be able to nurse them. Also for a woman's sake and the family's sake, some women just can't manage with one baby after the other. It is all very individual and personal and this rov can't just make a statement like this and include every woman. I'm all for big families, but not if it takes a toll on the mother's health and the family's well being.

I don't believe the Rov is obligating women despite their physical and mental limits.

This shaala is a serious one and every family should consult their own Torah authority as to what to do.

However, Rabbi Batzri is right in setting the ideal. We should not buy into the women's lib idea of selfish limitation of children for personal gratification. Nor should we pay attention to those men who want to live a lavish lifestyle in which children get in the way.

The Torah ideal is to have as many children as you can reasonably handle. The children are a treasure that far outweigh any monetary riches.

71

 Jul 10, 2009 at 01:33 PM Anonymous Says:

I don't see anything crazy here...if u don't agree don't do it, but the main thing to be honest with yourself, not to bash a noted authority. The punishment outweighs all your comments' cheshbonos

72

 Jul 10, 2009 at 02:05 PM Anonymous Says:

How ironic are these comments by a Rabbi who's never earned a dollar in his life but is supported by rich American's many of whom's wives are on birth control!!

73

 Jul 10, 2009 at 02:05 PM Anonymous Says:

I guess the father of 12 who sent ME a letter in the mail BEGGING for money to marry off his daughter didn't read this article.

74

 Jul 10, 2009 at 01:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Newspaper appeals for yesomim always have a family with 8 kids or more. A smaller family I guess doesn't rate. Maybe that's the abundance he means.

75

 Jul 10, 2009 at 01:40 PM anon Says:

Reply to #71  
Anonymous Says:

I don't see anything crazy here...if u don't agree don't do it, but the main thing to be honest with yourself, not to bash a noted authority. The punishment outweighs all your comments' cheshbonos

I don't mind if G-d provides for people who have 12 kids but I don't want to be forced to subsidize them (e.g. yeshiva scholarship, WIC, food stamps, section 8 etc...)

76

 Jul 10, 2009 at 02:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #69  
Anonymous Says:

There was Tanna that said that we are suffering so much so we should stop having more children than we need, and Hashem won't have anyone else to torture, and they answered no because we only need 1 boy and 1 girl to fulfill the basic minimum, but really we need more. The Gemara then asks how would only having 2 help? They answer that only 2 is not enough to keep us b/c there is infertility, people that ch"v can't find a shidduch etc., and 1 boy and one girl, do not necessarily equal 1 boy snd one girl.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have more than two kids, I'm saying there is no Chiyuv to. The Gemara (or perhaps it's a Medrash) talks about a place called GUFF where all the Neshamos from creation are kept. It says that when GUFF is empty, then Moshiach will come. But M'Ikar Hadin, it's a Midas Chassidus.

77

 Jul 10, 2009 at 02:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

A rov is not a mekubal. Rabbonim delve in halocha. Mekubalim are different. Besides halocha, they delve into the hidden and the Zohar haKadosh. HoRav Batzri is a very well-known and respected individual. Don't take his words lightly.

I am not taking his words lightly, although I am old and feeble but I am going out to buy a twines baby carriage, just must be prepared.

78

 Jul 10, 2009 at 02:33 PM yiddishe bubby Says:

Oy does this Rabbi have nothing else to say about what our matzav is today, Fistly, not everyone can have so many children, or so close together that is a matter that Hakadosh Boruch Hu decides along with everything else, how hurtful is this to women who cannot conceive, as his line "if a woman doesn"t have children for three years, she is using control", is he mad to use a blanket line like this. Secondly, conceiving children may be easy, but can everyone raise a large family with all children being brought up the right way, not so much frum, but as ehrlicher yidden, This Rabbi should put his efforts into something else like being involved with large or small families with kids at risk.

79

 Jul 10, 2009 at 02:20 PM so not! Says:

Reply to #52  
rivka Says:

The Lubavitcher Rebbe also said that women should not practice birth control and having as many children as Hashem gives a person is the key to a happy marriage, shalom bayit and all the blessings. He clearly said that practicing birth control can chasve shalom later affect one's ability to have children when one "decides" they would now like to have more....
The idea is to just have as many children as one is blessed with from Hashem and to avoid birth control unless there are real medical reasons.
This is the Torah's opinion and not something to argue about.

please use a quote. as a fellow lubavithcer i went to many lectures and was told otherwise. the Rebbe did say that having babies should not be at the expense of an emotional breakdown- that is right Lubavitcher Rabonim DO give out heterim.

80

 Jul 10, 2009 at 02:16 PM proudmom Says:

So if someone chooses to have 1 or 2 children something must me mentally wrong with that person? Selfish reasons?

Not everyone is made out to have kids let alone a dozen. I find it truly disturbing that yiddish life is all about marrying so you can have babies. Those women have empty eyes, sad lonely eyes. No marriage just overstressed exhausted women with no rights! How many children I want is between me and Hashem the good part is the Rabbis can say what they want but cant make me have the one.

I respect those who have many and do manage to have a marriage/life. To judge a woman by how many kids she has is very sad. I know many men who force their wives to have more kids because the more the better chances are to get all kinds of programs!

I always laugh at those ignorant yentas who assume their neighbor must be sick or never do the mitzvah because they have the one child.

81

 Jul 10, 2009 at 02:45 PM voiceoftruth Says:

And this from the genius that was hoodwinked in the Dybbuk story a few years ago. If indeed this is what he said, he would do best to shut his mouth.

82

 Jul 10, 2009 at 02:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #52  
rivka Says:

The Lubavitcher Rebbe also said that women should not practice birth control and having as many children as Hashem gives a person is the key to a happy marriage, shalom bayit and all the blessings. He clearly said that practicing birth control can chasve shalom later affect one's ability to have children when one "decides" they would now like to have more....
The idea is to just have as many children as one is blessed with from Hashem and to avoid birth control unless there are real medical reasons.
This is the Torah's opinion and not something to argue about.

The rebbes opinion is NOT as black and white as you make it to be, I suggest you ask a Lubavitcher Rov to see how and when they give a heter, which is usally on an case by case and kid by kid basis.
But please don't make it sound as if there is no way birth control is practiced by Lubavitch, the Rebbe was against the family planninig movement as a whole, but did consider the conditions of each family and especially the Mother, which is what the Lubavitcher Rabbonim take into account when they are asked regarding this matter.

What this Mekubal is saying seems to be insensitive to people who are struggling emotionally with rasing the children they have already.

83

 Jul 10, 2009 at 03:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #33  
Anonymous Says:

That's why people have no more respect for rabbis of today! Should I say for all my neighbours - yantes - how much I suffered the lest three years! Shame.

I agree. I have two children, and in order to have them I had many problems in the beginning. There is 7 years between each child because of medical problems. If I took this rabbi seriously, I would be suicidal.

84

 Jul 10, 2009 at 03:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #46  
Rippin Pinchas Says:

I guess if you see everything through the view that whatever is directly in front of you that is what you see and nothing else, then you have a good point. However, history demonstrates that such a purview is wrong.

As the ba'alei mussar say, based on your medraga of emunah that is how much hishtadlus you must do. High emunah, less hishtadlus, and visa versa.

what about ain somchin al haness?

85

 Jul 10, 2009 at 03:07 PM nonsense Says:

Even yakov had 12 kids but from 4 wives so pls don't force anybody to have 12

86

 Jul 10, 2009 at 03:01 PM efry Says:

don't you all see he is a sefardi.....this means no mesorah ....everything mystic....נ-נח נחמ -נחמן מאומן , second -he spoke to bali teshvia who used birth control till they got frum etc. now they want children....

87

 Jul 10, 2009 at 02:58 PM Anonymous Says:

I think the Rav's words must have been taken WAY out of context. Who is the person that reported this? Any speech like polls can be skewed. We have to check out the source first.

88

 Jul 10, 2009 at 02:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

It is a mitzvah to have a girl and boy no where does it say the more the merrier and have a nervous breakdown

it says in gamara that a person should not stop having children once he has a boy and girl. he should continue having children. moshiach will come when all the neshamos finish coming down. i sure would would like to help out with that for as long as i can.

89

 Jul 10, 2009 at 02:51 PM Mother of Many Says:

Some people disparage women who have large families and call them baby machines or other such "compliments" I think that is very wrong, but, if a woman is going to neglect her other children because she has more than she can handle, or the children won't get enough individual attention, then she shouldn't have so many.

90

 Jul 10, 2009 at 03:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Avraham Aveinu did not have 12 children with one woman as this mekubal is advocating. Even Yaakov maybe did it with one out of the 4 wives.
It is a known fact that in the times of the tanach nursing made sure the pregnancies were spaced at least 2 years apart (though Leah seems to have bucked the trend somehow). Now that we don't have that many rabbanim allow and even suggest BC for 2 years.

91

 Jul 10, 2009 at 04:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #61  
Anonymous Says:

Possible correction: Check Midrash, etc. Adam had MANY more kids
Avraham Avinu as well. He had more kids with Hagar when she returned after Sarahs passing. He later sent the children (plural) to " the East with gifts"

not sure of the details but Adam and Av. Avinu not good examples of men who had only a few kids.

The only additonal parnessa one gets from having a lot of children is being able to qualify for Food Stamps.

92

 Jul 10, 2009 at 04:02 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #61  
Anonymous Says:

Possible correction: Check Midrash, etc. Adam had MANY more kids
Avraham Avinu as well. He had more kids with Hagar when she returned after Sarahs passing. He later sent the children (plural) to " the East with gifts"

not sure of the details but Adam and Av. Avinu not good examples of men who had only a few kids.

Yea, according to the Medrish, he fathored alot of Shaadim too, while seperated from Chava.

93

 Jul 10, 2009 at 04:01 PM lakewooer Says:

Mekubalim should instead give brachos that work so the girls can get married without dictations that are not realistic. I sent all my friends (myself included) to a local not well known mekubal in lakewood that does not take a penny from anybody and everyone got engaged within the year that they went to him. I am not posting his name because hes not interested in the PR

94

 Jul 10, 2009 at 04:23 PM Getzel the Pretzel Says:

Reply to #90  
Anonymous Says:

Avraham Aveinu did not have 12 children with one woman as this mekubal is advocating. Even Yaakov maybe did it with one out of the 4 wives.
It is a known fact that in the times of the tanach nursing made sure the pregnancies were spaced at least 2 years apart (though Leah seems to have bucked the trend somehow). Now that we don't have that many rabbanim allow and even suggest BC for 2 years.

Avraham Avienu was not able to have children al pe derech hateva, see the Gemara in Yevomos.

95

 Jul 10, 2009 at 03:53 PM Rippin Pinchas Says:

Reply to #84  
Anonymous Says:

what about ain somchin al haness?

Who says that it is ness? Maybe it is a metzeyous?

Just because we cannot see things with our eyes does not mean that it is a ness.

96

 Jul 10, 2009 at 04:33 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #6  
Little Masmid Says:

Sorry. This is a crock. There are many rabbonim who are mattir birth control. The best form is tuition.

There are many rabbonim who are mattir eating on yom kippur - if an individual needs to. But there are none who permit it for the general public. The same applies to birth control.

97

 Jul 10, 2009 at 04:31 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #6  
Little Masmid Says:

Sorry. This is a crock. There are many rabbonim who are mattir birth control. The best form is tuition.

Any rov will permit it on an individual basis, if the woman has a medical condition that warrants it. But as a general rule, no, there are NO rabbonim who permit it. If you think there are, name some.

98

 Jul 10, 2009 at 04:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #57  
Anonymous Says:

If we all have more children than we can offered, at least the Jewish Press will be making a lot of money on those ads that plead for us to donate money for a family of 12-40 children who are fatherless.

that's a whole different story of people who are selfish and don't buy life insurance....

99

 Jul 10, 2009 at 04:33 PM RebYid Says:

Reply to #86  
efry Says:

don't you all see he is a sefardi.....this means no mesorah ....everything mystic....נ-נח נחמ -נחמן מאומן , second -he spoke to bali teshvia who used birth control till they got frum etc. now they want children....

Your comment is one of an Am Haaretz, the Rambam was sefardi, does he also not C"V have a mesorah. I have news for you if he doesn't neither do you. Nachma is a fraction of breslov, a chassidic group nothing to do with sefardim, although some sefardim have joined the group. One could call your anti sefardi preaching antisemitism. Many ashkanazi jews are decendants of jews who were exiled from spain and landed in eastern europe, you may just be one of those. The Ari was a mixture of both ashkenazi and sefardi. A little respect for your brothers!

100

 Jul 10, 2009 at 04:35 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #80  
proudmom Says:

So if someone chooses to have 1 or 2 children something must me mentally wrong with that person? Selfish reasons?

Not everyone is made out to have kids let alone a dozen. I find it truly disturbing that yiddish life is all about marrying so you can have babies. Those women have empty eyes, sad lonely eyes. No marriage just overstressed exhausted women with no rights! How many children I want is between me and Hashem the good part is the Rabbis can say what they want but cant make me have the one.

I respect those who have many and do manage to have a marriage/life. To judge a woman by how many kids she has is very sad. I know many men who force their wives to have more kids because the more the better chances are to get all kinds of programs!

I always laugh at those ignorant yentas who assume their neighbor must be sick or never do the mitzvah because they have the one child.

I believe your baggage is showing. The decision on the size of the family isn't simply between you and G-d. Your husband has a say also. (Gemara Sanhedrion). The number of kids has to be a mutual decision. My children are, indeed, 3 years apart in age. That was just the way it worked out. In hindsight, it might have been better to have them spaced as close as biology will allow. Then we wouldn't have ended up raising kids for 30 years.

101

 Jul 10, 2009 at 04:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #88  
Anonymous Says:

it says in gamara that a person should not stop having children once he has a boy and girl. he should continue having children. moshiach will come when all the neshamos finish coming down. i sure would would like to help out with that for as long as i can.

What if a woman has 13 daughters? Should she keep trying to have a son? What if she has 20 daughters and no sons? What then?

102

 Jul 10, 2009 at 05:01 PM Chusid Says:

Reply to #4  
yeh yeh yeh Says:

I bet he has factual data to support his comment! He has done thorough research and thru that has come to the conclusion that larger families have more income!

When i look at my father and others from his age who had 12 kids and no life and money, I wonder if he could show anyone his "factual data." My factual data shown otherwise......... please help me see it. I have 6 kids in yeshivos paying tuition. Camp for my kids is costing me about 10,000. so please help me understand...........

103

 Jul 10, 2009 at 05:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Who is this rabbi? Never heard of him.

I don't usually criticize Rabbaim, but this one is totally off. To say that people would look at my wife who was infertile for the first 2 years of our marriage as being on birth control is very insensitive. Were Sarah, Rivka, Rochel, and Channah on birth control? What about the Gemara which says that H' will make a woman barren because He desires the tefillos of tzadikkim.

This is one of the chisronos of the Eretz Yisroel community. Everything is about looking and sounding the frummest. True avodah b'tzinius is hard to find. Even seculars admired Chofetz Chaim, Chazon Ish, the Steipler and today his son Reb Chaim, etc, because they were not all about chumrishkeit. Today they love to find and mock some of the outrageous statements of this Rabannan.

104

 Jul 10, 2009 at 05:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #27  
Torah Truth Says:

Good luck to him and anyone who wishes to follow him. I was told just the opposite from HaRav Yaakov Kammentsky ZT”L. He said you see in the Torah that they were Meinik (nursed) their children for 2 years, a form of birth control. Therefore Rav Yaakov held that children should be spaced 3 years apart (conception after a 2 year pause). Where are Gedolim like Rav Yaakov today???

#27 thank you for this information about R Yakov Kamanetzky
he was a true gadol .

105

 Jul 10, 2009 at 05:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #98  
Anonymous Says:

that's a whole different story of people who are selfish and don't buy life insurance....

you might need a 5M policy that could be out of reach to some of us, are you a insurance broker

106

 Jul 10, 2009 at 05:38 PM Anonymous Says:

u can all have as many (or not as many ) children as u want, but these remarks are appaling! anyone with a little brains knows that he was speaking generally and u all know that he is aware of fertility and medical issues......just STOP THE BASHING AND GROW UP! This website is turning more discusting everday. everyone thinks they can write whatever they think without consenqueces. its still Loshon Hara Chutzpa!

107

 Jul 10, 2009 at 06:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #106  
Anonymous Says:

u can all have as many (or not as many ) children as u want, but these remarks are appaling! anyone with a little brains knows that he was speaking generally and u all know that he is aware of fertility and medical issues......just STOP THE BASHING AND GROW UP! This website is turning more discusting everday. everyone thinks they can write whatever they think without consenqueces. its still Loshon Hara Chutzpa!

And your opinion is that I can ask my neighbour about her private issues!!! Shame!

108

 Jul 10, 2009 at 05:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
Anonymous Says:

All the posters don't understand what this rabbi means if a rabbi has more kids HIS income is larger everytime he marries off a kid he goes collecting in the USA

Well we know that mashiach will come when all neshumes will be born he might see that as a mekubal's point but we just need to ask our our rabbis what to do however in the old days women were nursing till 2-3 yrs but today this is not in effect anyomre so I guess we need to something else taking some birth controls etc we all wish that we could still do it and live the natural way

109

 Jul 10, 2009 at 06:35 PM yeh yeh yeh Says:

Reply to #102  
Chusid Says:

When i look at my father and others from his age who had 12 kids and no life and money, I wonder if he could show anyone his "factual data." My factual data shown otherwise......... please help me see it. I have 6 kids in yeshivos paying tuition. Camp for my kids is costing me about 10,000. so please help me understand...........

I was being sarcastic!

110

 Jul 11, 2009 at 04:53 PM Anonymous Says:

Why do men say such things as "don´t believe doctors, they are liars", if they NEVER expirienced pains of labor!!!??Loosing liters of blood in and after the birth, pressing the baby out of most sensitive areas of their bodies? Not to mention that a 9 month pregnancy per se isn´t a sunshine feeling. Those are not the men who have to throw up every morning for several month and still to go to work and manage the "older" kids who are crowling under the table and balance the baby belly out. Being sick for almost all of your potentially productive years and under ongoing bodily stress is very dangerous to physical and mental health of the women, her children and her husband too. The whole world is looking upon Jews and we have to be not only many, but a Mentsch and have a picture of proper Torah-observant Jew in mind. Sorry, I can´t find this in a overtired women, screaming and insensitive to the (not only materialistic!!!) needs of her many children, while her husband is devoting all of his time (spare of making children) to his studies. What will he do when his wife just breaks down?!Divorce her and find a new one leaving 12+ kids without mummy and daddy?

111

 Jul 10, 2009 at 08:10 PM Ein Somechin Al Ha Ness Says:

Anyone can have children it's raising them thats the challenge. We only have to look at what is going on in Bnei Brak where thousands of kids from large impoverished families are going off the derech every year.

The highest suicide rate in Israel is among Charedi fathers who have large families and no way to provide for them. These are the issues that are swept under the rug and should be dealt with by the "gedolim" not these pseudo issues that keep coming to the forefront.

112

 Jul 11, 2009 at 09:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #68  
Anonymous Says:

The issue of birth control is a shaila each one has to ask their own Rav, not one for the blogs. However;
1.If one decides they should have children based on what they can afford, maybe they shouldn't have any children. Ask all of the Maddoff victims and others such as the rubashkins who thought they were set, and lost everything overnight.
2.anyone who has learned seforim in emuna, such as sha'ar habitochon in the Chovas halevovos, understands that parnassa in entirely in the hands of the ribono shel olam.
3.are trips with the family to florida, pesach hotels ect. more important than having children?
4. If the people in mitzraim and during other difficult times had made such cheshbonos, there wouldn't be a Klal yisroel today.
The list goes on and on. at the same time, no one knows what is doing by someone else, and we cannot be too careful in making sure not to CV hurt or embarrass someone, as there are many who cannot have children, even after having, and their pain is deep enough without our ading to it.

3.are trips with the family to florida, pesach hotels ect. more important than having children?
Depends! There is an issue of normalacy and balance to be considered. Pple do require healthy outlets, recreation, vacation, and downtime. I am not promoting exhorbitant vacations nor spending Pesach in hotels because that is not my personal inclination. But that doesnt mean it's wrong for everyone across the board! If there is no space or resources to be allotted for family time spent in enjoyable activities--on whatever scale seems appropriate; doesnt have to be Disneyland--the family unit invariably suffers

113

 Jul 11, 2009 at 09:13 PM in the hands of hashem Says:

everyone can do what they want to think they r in control, but if hashem wants u to have more kids then all the birth control won't work but a person has to do their hishtadlus and use control if they think they can't manage and how ever long it works for you then kol hakovod but eventually if ur supposed to have more you will anyway and then you can enjoy the child even more you know it was meant to be.

114

 Jul 11, 2009 at 08:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #105  
Anonymous Says:

you might need a 5M policy that could be out of reach to some of us, are you a insurance broker

at least get something! even a 1million plan is better than zero! no i'm not a broker.

115

 Jul 11, 2009 at 08:41 PM Anonymous Says:

"When you see a woman whose youngest child is three, this means that she has been using control methods for three years."

NOT NECESSARILY SO-She could have had a previous miscarriage.

116

 Jul 11, 2009 at 08:31 PM Anonymous Says:

can he pay my yeshiva tuition bill? i have 3 kids and i'm paying over $52k

117

 Jul 10, 2009 at 08:02 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #106  
Anonymous Says:

u can all have as many (or not as many ) children as u want, but these remarks are appaling! anyone with a little brains knows that he was speaking generally and u all know that he is aware of fertility and medical issues......just STOP THE BASHING AND GROW UP! This website is turning more discusting everday. everyone thinks they can write whatever they think without consenqueces. its still Loshon Hara Chutzpa!

when someone who is a "Gadol" says things like this it makes me question his status as a Gadol. The Rabbis said in Pirkei Avot (Ethics of the Fathers) Chachamim Hizaharu Bedivrecheim translated Rabbis be careful with your words. How come we never heard comments like this from Gedolim of 30-70 years ago. Maybe because they knew and kept this mishnah.

118

 Jul 11, 2009 at 09:44 PM yidele Says:

he is good at telling misser .......how about the rabbi start giving out winning lottery no..........

119

 Jul 11, 2009 at 10:13 PM suicides? Says:

Reply to #111  
Ein Somechin Al Ha Ness Says:

Anyone can have children it's raising them thats the challenge. We only have to look at what is going on in Bnei Brak where thousands of kids from large impoverished families are going off the derech every year.

The highest suicide rate in Israel is among Charedi fathers who have large families and no way to provide for them. These are the issues that are swept under the rug and should be dealt with by the "gedolim" not these pseudo issues that keep coming to the forefront.

where do you get these statistics?

120

 Jul 11, 2009 at 10:11 PM Anonymous Says:

I think the media has altered what he said...

121

 Jul 11, 2009 at 10:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Strange. Since matan torah the halachah has considered every yoledes to be in sakanah but now we are supposed to ignore a doctor who says a particular woman is in even greater danger if she has another child too soon?

Yet if this same woman ignores her doctor, gets pregnant and a doctor says she is not allowed to fast on Yom Kippur she must eat and if he says she needs to get to a hospital we pull a hatzolah member out of shul in middle of davening to drive her there.

I don't get it. Does anyone else?

Can someone get this rov on the phone ask him if he reaaly made such blanket statements?

122

 Jul 11, 2009 at 10:46 PM SURVIVOR1818 Says:

i never practiced birth control.Hashem gave me two beautiful children.Then I got cancer and was told by the doctors I was sterile.A year and 1/2 later I was blessed with a sick baby boy who was niftar at 19 years. The joy and naches I had from him is immeasurable. I had the brochos of the Gerrer.,Lubavitch and Ribnitzer Rebeiim. Their brochos helped me have my children
.No doubt they helped me conceive. Trust in Hashem and a little help from your own Rebbe. Tizku L'mitzvs

123

 Jul 11, 2009 at 10:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #35  
eli Says:

He's 100% right. You see so many wealthy chassidim with large families.
Most women who have breakdowns would of had them regardless of how many/few children they have.
And don't challenge him by saying who will pay tution, YOU will.

I worked in Williamsburg and yes there are many who are wealthy but there are many many more who are just eaking by. The positives of that community is that all communal services are geared to be cheaper for the large families,such as, schools, camps, no ship dues... I won't touch upon the other stuff.

124

 Jul 11, 2009 at 10:21 PM adina Says:

Well I had a date tonight with a fine boy called Avi and I did exactly what the Kabbalist said, and I told him that I want to have 12 precious kids - he asked if I was serious and I said yes - he calmly changed the subject and then said he has a terrible headache and drove me back to my parents house and apologized for making the date so short.... If course he dumped me like a hot potato. I learned the hard way never to discuss this matter on a date - especially not on the first date.

127

 Jul 11, 2009 at 11:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #124  
adina Says:

Well I had a date tonight with a fine boy called Avi and I did exactly what the Kabbalist said, and I told him that I want to have 12 precious kids - he asked if I was serious and I said yes - he calmly changed the subject and then said he has a terrible headache and drove me back to my parents house and apologized for making the date so short.... If course he dumped me like a hot potato. I learned the hard way never to discuss this matter on a date - especially not on the first date.

You should have mentioned that your father was going to pay the tuitions.

128

 Jul 11, 2009 at 11:57 PM proudmom Says:

Reply to #100  
Anonymous Says:

I believe your baggage is showing. The decision on the size of the family isn't simply between you and G-d. Your husband has a say also. (Gemara Sanhedrion). The number of kids has to be a mutual decision. My children are, indeed, 3 years apart in age. That was just the way it worked out. In hindsight, it might have been better to have them spaced as close as biology will allow. Then we wouldn't have ended up raising kids for 30 years.

Because of my personal opinion you assume I have baggage?? It was my husband and my mutual dicision to have our beautiful 3 kids. I was not speaking of personal dicisions. I was speaking of women in general.

129

 Jul 12, 2009 at 12:22 AM boroparkyenta Says:

I wished and prayed and hoped to have a dozen kids. Or more.
I never used birth control, not because some Rabbi told me not to, not because it's against the Torah, (which it isn't) not because I didn't know how to use it, but because I never had the need. Unfortunately.
However, many insensitive people did not know that I had dozens of miscarriages, and although I did manage to have a few children, they were spaced far apart. How awful I felt at simchas when people whispered to my mother behind my back about my suspected birth control usage! No one ever knows what goes on in someone else's life, and these issues are private and no one's business.
No one should ever tell anyone anything personal whatsoever!
Everyone (the Rabbi included) should mind their own business, unless they are willing to cough up the money to help out the ones they are advising.
Hashem sends parnassa in many ways. Unfortunately there are plenty of fools that have one baby after another and come to NY every day to raise money to manage their families. I don't call that a respectable or acceptable way of parnasa. Everyone should go to work, begging is not a form of employment!
Everyone should live within their means. Emotionally healthy parents need to produce children according to their budgets! & according to their health and other situations.
Encouraging people to have more children is one thing, but putting your money where your mouth is is the main thing.
We all live with bitachon, and know that Hashem guides the world. He also put all kinds of things into the world, including medical knowledge, for our benefit.
It was all created for US. Doctors are not liars, but they can make mistakes like any humans. Most of the time, they are right. Of course, there are exceptions, and tshuva and tefilla can change anything.
What we need is mekubals going to work, and teaching others to do the same.
No one should want to live off other people's money.
Hashem should help all of us be the best parents we could be, and give all families of 12 or more children the ability to pick the lotto numbers.
Kein Yirbu!

130

 Jul 12, 2009 at 12:30 AM Anonymous Says:

Has he every heard of the HIgh Risk of downs in women over the age of 36 or how about complications after multiple c-sections, or what about infertility...women are not baby machines. Contraception is much cheaper than Yeshiva tuition these days since health insurance cant be used to pay for yeshiva or food.

131

 Jul 12, 2009 at 12:32 AM bunch of little kids Says:

U posters r a bunch of immature babies. Can everyone please follow what their own rav tells them and stop SHOUTING. This is getting u nowhwere.

132

 Jul 12, 2009 at 05:16 AM Doniels Says:

People, look it up in Shulchan Aruch, Even H'Ezer 5:12: while men are forbidden to practice birth-control (no matter how they make themselves "sterile"), women are allowed to take oral birth control, unless they are preventing their husbands from having [the required amount of] children.

See also Rambam, Isuray Bi'a 16:5

133

 Jul 12, 2009 at 04:53 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #131  
bunch of little kids Says:

U posters r a bunch of immature babies. Can everyone please follow what their own rav tells them and stop SHOUTING. This is getting u nowhwere.

You sound like the ayatollah talking: "follow your imam and stop the protesting. you're getting nowhere." It's speaking up that puts dangerous people and dangerous ideas in the spotlight as being ludicrous.

134

 Jul 12, 2009 at 03:27 AM IUD Says:

I must take several medications for my health while at the same time dreaming of having more children. I have 2 options. get off the medications and hope to get back to myself after birth to be the mother my children deserve, or, get pregnant anyways and daven hard that my baby should not be born with a congenital defect .

135

 Jul 12, 2009 at 06:59 AM leaving on a jet plane Says:

I have a feeling that much of what the mekubal wrote was taken out of context or misconstrued. I doubt that he advocates walking up to strangers and advising them to stop using birth control. Unfortunately today, some people are very open about disclosing their birth control plans and someone should advise them of the preciousness of life. Also, I doubt that he meant that everyone should have 12+ children because even those who want to are not always granted that many. I think that what he was trying to say is that we think that parnassa comes from soley from our own efforts and not from arousing a brocha from UP ABOVE. Who are we to say that our parnassa that we receive is not related to the amount of children that we have? Do we really know where it comes from? As far as living off of others, parnassa comes from many sources. We daven that we should earn it honorably but unfortunately sometimes it has to come from tzedukah or government help. That is not related to how many children one has because in earlier times, children could generate income by working. Today we have stopped sending them to work. Does that mean that they should not be born or rather does that mean that we should start teaching them how to generate income?

136

 Jul 12, 2009 at 06:07 AM The Birth Whisperer Says:

For a Rabbi to speak to 1000 single girls this way is way dangerous. These girls are desperate to get married and are very easily brainwashed if they believe that this will help them get married.
My parents had 12 children, used no birth control and had no money. My mother couldn't handle the children and was depressed. Many of the children have issues today. Of the ones of us who are married - none of us have a lot of children. My children are taken care of and emotionally healthy.
I know lots of people with large families and the mothers can't take care of their of the kids. The kids are hefker. The amount of children one has is a personal one between husband and wife. Their is no mitzvah to have more than you can handle.
My husband went on a hatzalah call for a woman who had recently had her 8th baby and the children were close together. The lady was crying her heart out to my husband and his partners on the call. She kept saying that she can't manage and her husband called her a "shigse" when she even suggested going to a Rav for a heter. My husband couldn't stop thinking about this for days - imagine a woman so overwhelmed, she has to pour her heart out to a stranger because she couldn't talk to her own husband.
I rest my case.

137

 Jul 12, 2009 at 02:01 AM Anonymous Says:

“When you see a woman whose youngest child is three, this means that she has been using control methods for three years. Convince her not to do this”

After experiencing a miscarriage after each of my two kids I got permission from my rav to use birth control after my third for 2 years. When I had my my forth I decided to let nature take its course. I got pregnant around 3 months after I stopped nursing - my baby was around 18 months old. And I did have a traumatizing miscarriage at 12 weeks. So when someone will again see a 3 year difference between my kids it wasn't because of my intervention but Hashems.

When you see someone with nice spacing between kids don't comment "you're a lady. Taking care of yourself". That is putting spears into her heart.

138

 Jul 12, 2009 at 01:48 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #120  
Anonymous Says:

I think the media has altered what he said...

If the media rally altered what he said then why does he not come out with clarification and a real signature

139

 Jul 12, 2009 at 01:24 AM A Yiddishe Mama Says:

Hello...I would like to speak to this Mikubal personally! Number 1 I had a few kids 3 years apart because @. I had a still born in the 9th month....b. my next pregnancy I lost a "baby" when I was in my 8th month c. my next pregnancy I lost a "baby" in my 7th month....OK?? Whoever was not aware of my situation would come according to this "Tzaddik" and ask my why I was on "birthcontrol"?? After much heartache and pain and additional miscarriages I managed to bring 7 beautiful neshamas on this world. Healthy, beautiful children, however it took many many years of tremendous heartache and great Yiras Shamayim to continue on in my mission to have children. How dare he have people come and confront me about birth control, with all I have been through. I have friends that had emotional issues that CAN NOT HAVE children every year! Can not handle 12 children. Women can NOT be BABY FACTORIES!
As for over 40, how about the fact that women put their own Health AT RISK over 40?? I did manage to have my youngest over 40 and my blood pressure went to 220 over 120 and I almost 'DIED" having my youngest. Through the great chesed of Hashem I made it through and thank Hashem I was given years to be alive to raise my children. However Women have to be aware that over 40 they put their own health at risk as well as the many babies that are born that are "down" syndrome and have birth defects. He sounds like he is living in another "world"!

140

 Jul 12, 2009 at 12:42 AM Suri Madonna Palin Says:

Kabbalaism is another 'ism'. Why the h** is this idiot considered a rabbi?

141

 Jul 12, 2009 at 10:15 AM Anonymous Says:

This article should be entitled "How Can an Attention-Starved Unqualified Rabbi Get Himself Alot of Attention? Say Something Moronic and Ridiculous and People Talk About Him"

142

 Jul 12, 2009 at 01:15 PM Be Realistic Says:

Reply to #134  
IUD Says:

I must take several medications for my health while at the same time dreaming of having more children. I have 2 options. get off the medications and hope to get back to myself after birth to be the mother my children deserve, or, get pregnant anyways and daven hard that my baby should not be born with a congenital defect .

obviously this rabbi does not mean you or any woman in your situation, he is talking to the general population that is healthy, normal, and functioning. if you have a medical issue YOU ARE FIRST and i can guarantee that this kabbalist wouldn;t even let you have another child if your health is at risk.

143

 Jul 12, 2009 at 03:34 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #141  
Anonymous Says:

This article should be entitled "How Can an Attention-Starved Unqualified Rabbi Get Himself Alot of Attention? Say Something Moronic and Ridiculous and People Talk About Him"

And whom do YOU consider to be a qualified rabbi?

144

 Jul 12, 2009 at 03:34 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #140  
Suri Madonna Palin Says:

Kabbalaism is another 'ism'. Why the h** is this idiot considered a rabbi?

And is "Torahism" another "ism"? Who are you to call him an idiot?

145

 Jul 12, 2009 at 07:27 PM awacs Says:

Reply to #6  
Little Masmid Says:

Sorry. This is a crock. There are many rabbonim who are mattir birth control. The best form is tuition.

Uh, he's not saying you CAN'T use b/c. Clearly, you can under the Shulchan Aruch. He's saying you SHOULDN'T, for your own good.

146

 Jul 12, 2009 at 08:17 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #143  
Milhouse Says:

And whom do YOU consider to be a qualified rabbi?

For starters, someone with common sense who does not say foolish things.

147

 Jul 13, 2009 at 03:38 AM Avinoam Says:

This is why Americans who are obsessed with the news just can't get enough. First it was glued to CNN, FOX etc. and now all are glued to internet news so that you can all get your words in. After all, your comments are so urgent that it helps promote the site. Problem with the site however is that in needs to report news that makes a difference. News that is spread only to bring about loshon hora and rechiloos is no heter from any rabbi or mekubal. Keep up the good work especially during the three weeks and keep commenting your very urgent loshon hora - we didn't lose enough, we don't have enough non jews hating us, we need to bring more slander into our homes? Lastly, this mekubal was not talking to those who do not subscribe to his teaching, so why make a news story out of it other than looking for a slanderous response. If you don't like the comment he made, don't listen!

148

 Jul 13, 2009 at 01:53 PM Anonymous Says:

I don't care who he was talking to - he's MAD!! As far as I know according to Halocho once one has a boy and a girl one has fulfilled the mitzva of peru urevu, anything after that is nice, but not nice enough to risk your life for (both mental and physical).

149

 Jul 13, 2009 at 11:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #96  
Milhouse Says:

There are many rabbonim who are mattir eating on yom kippur - if an individual needs to. But there are none who permit it for the general public. The same applies to birth control.

Please don't compare birth control to eating on Yom Kippur. There are many different levels of stringency in Halacha. These two are very far apart.

150

 Jul 13, 2009 at 11:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #52  
rivka Says:

The Lubavitcher Rebbe also said that women should not practice birth control and having as many children as Hashem gives a person is the key to a happy marriage, shalom bayit and all the blessings. He clearly said that practicing birth control can chasve shalom later affect one's ability to have children when one "decides" they would now like to have more....
The idea is to just have as many children as one is blessed with from Hashem and to avoid birth control unless there are real medical reasons.
This is the Torah's opinion and not something to argue about.

That is the Lubavitcher Rebbes view. Do not confuse that with Torah view. He was still a human being.

151

 Jul 14, 2009 at 06:37 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #150  
Anonymous Says:

That is the Lubavitcher Rebbes view. Do not confuse that with Torah view. He was still a human being.

So is every posek. But what they say is Torah.

152

 Jul 14, 2009 at 06:36 PM Milhouse Says:

Reply to #149  
Anonymous Says:

Please don't compare birth control to eating on Yom Kippur. There are many different levels of stringency in Halacha. These two are very far apart.

They're both things that are forbidden without a heter from a competent rov.

153

 Jul 17, 2009 at 02:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Dag Says:

It takes extraordinary parents to raise twelve children. With thinking like this, is it any wonder that there are such huge social problems in the community?

Seriously. People shouldn't have more children than they can handle. If they do, than they are not being fair to those children.

154

 Jul 17, 2009 at 06:48 PM Gina Says:

Reply to #3  
Dag Says:

It takes extraordinary parents to raise twelve children. With thinking like this, is it any wonder that there are such huge social problems in the community?

birth control is not that expensive that it damages household income. lol.

155

 Aug 10, 2009 at 10:08 AM sarahklep123@ayhoo.com Says:

When men have the babies, have to work full time to support their husbands who learn and then have to take care of the kids and household then there can be 12 children in family. A person can only handle so much. There is an increase in children at risk (those who go off the derech). A big part of why they go off is that their moms are too tired to give them the attention they deserve. Having kids is something that even animals can do. What separates us and animals is that we care and pay attention to our children (or at least we are supposed to) Having a child every year is not mentally nor physicall healthy.

156

 Aug 10, 2009 at 05:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
Anonymous Says:

i did not read the whole thing but i think something is lose up their in the rabbis head.

i agree with you. The danger is that there are those who will listen to him, and may not be able to handle that many children. How do we stop him from putting such guilt and pressure on young women?

157

 Aug 17, 2011 at 11:08 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

How many children did you have and how many years imbetween where they Rabbi? It is very insensitive to say that if a person's yougest child is three they must have been on birth control - Does the Rabbi know if the women perhaps had miscarriages or any other complicating issues? It is no ones buisness to stick thier noses into the lives of people so but out and take care of other problems like men and boys smoking!!!! That surely wreaks havoc on parnassah, shalom bayis and income!

We should respect the wisdom and ruach HaKodesh of prominent rabbonim in our communities, and not speak negatively of them. The times we live in are extremely hard, and we have to know ourselves and our limits. There is a predominance of depression, anxiety and mental instability, which is no coincidence in the times we live in considering how stressful it is to make a living, how expensive frum Jewish life is, and the instability of the world.The pressures are cracking everyone. I herald those who admit that they are facing difficulty coping and decide to do something about it by going to therapy or taking medication if it is needed. People should make the decision with their Rav and between themselves as to whether they are fit for a large family. I really believe that the goal Hashem has for our generation, is to build the next generation as mentally healthy, inspired, emotionally resilient Jews. This can only be created if the parents of these children are healthy! You know yourself and what you can handle. A woman should not be expected to overstretch herself if she isn't physically and emotionally capable.

158

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