New York – Agudas Yisroel sponsored an event last night in Borough Park entitled, “VeAsisah HaYashar VeHaTov.” The conclusions of course were that the bottom line is that Chassidim and all Hareidi Jews should conduct their financial activities lawfully. Whether one is in business for himself, or works for someone else, or whether one is in the lofty field of AVodas HaKodesh, there is no excuse to cheat.
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There is an expression known as “an elephant in the room” and clearly, even though the hall was packed there was a rather large elephant in that room. The expression means that there is an important and very obvious topic, which everyone present is thoroughly aware of, yet for some reason it is never discussed. It is too uncomfortable to discuss, and it will not be discussed.
So what is this elephant? You can see it in virtually every comment that is posted on VIN News. You can see it on the labels of packaged kosher Heimish produced food. You can see it in the demographics of bank managers in Borough Park.
One Shabbos after I bought my first house I bought a number of packaged Heimish cakes to bring home. They were fairly good tasting cakes but my wife knew that it was out of character for me to buy packaged cakes. They were labeled “Spunch Cake” and were produced by a Heimishe bakery in Borough Park.
Go into any bank in Borough Park and you will see a bizarre reality. Of all the branches of every bank in the community there is only one Hareidi bank manager. There are no Hareidi tellers. Why is that?
The answer is quite simple and is also the never discussed elephant in the room. Chassidim cannot spell. As a general rule, Chareidi English skills are notoriously deficient at best, and completely non-existent at worst.
Our secular education in Borough Park, Williamsburg, Monsey, Kiryas Joel, and the many other Charedi communities ends at 6th or 8th grade. Sure, sure, the system allows you to study for ninth grade regents examinations, but it is always optional. Usually, study time is limited to about thirty minutes and to a time when the other boys have their supper break. What kid wants to study for regents when every single one of his friends are running around eating and generally enjoying themselves? Teachers are present to help, but no instruction is given.
Some drop out immediately. Some drop out in tenth grade. And those are the better ones.
There is a Gemorah in Kiddushin which lists the obligations a father has toward his children. There are five obligations and it is debatable whether swimming is a sixth. The list, however, should not be a list that remains stagnant. As society and technology has changed, the too have the obligations. We should be teaching our kids how to get along in life so that they will be able to earn a parnasa and serve Hashem properly. We need to get with the program and in this case it means making sure that we have decent communication and writing skills.
As the situation stands now, the socio-religious atmosphere in Chareidi circles actually discourages education. Kollel Yungeleit are discouraged from leaving Kollel and even preparing for a Parnasa until they have a family to support. At that point, who has the time or money available to get an education?
Touro College has a program called the Parnasa Institute, and it is shameful that the people behind this initiative are not treated as heroes that are addressing a real social problem – indeed, a crisis.
Even in the Litvish world, our Roshei Yeshiva are not encouraging the Kosher programs that are available to their students for those that will not be entering Klei Kodesh fields, or even to have it as a backup plan.
Those in the Chareidi world who did enter the fields of medicine, accounting, or the job force in the general corporate world did so against all odds and despite our system of education – no because of it.
Some former yungeleit are, in fact, successful. They enter businesses of their father or father-in-law. But most do not have these options. One writer wrote in and explained how right out of Kollel he obtained a job in a medium sized company where the principals were Chassidish. After a few years he was laid off due to the economic crisis. He needed another position. To his shock the only positions available due to his lack of English skills were entry-level positions.
I quote from his letter below:
“The reason why I don’t stand a chance at a decent job is simply, because the education side of my resume ends after 8th grade. No company would look at a resume for any worthy position with a (sic) education that doesn’t even include any high school.”
Shlomo HaMelech tells us “Soneh Matanos Yichyeh” – one who disdains gifts will live. Rav Dessler zatzal interprets this verse as a philosophical recommendation for life. Let us always be givers and never be takers.
This is, of course, excellent advice but without an education we cannot step into the general workforce. Chareidim are forced to be takers – section eight housing, food stamps, wic, school vouchers and much more. And then come the challenges of maintaining our principles of honesty and integrity.
In stressing this point, a common and typical response is, “But there are thousands of people that have made a fortune without having an education! Bill Gates never graduated college. There are plenty of millionaire businessmen, many of them Chassidim that never had an education – and they fabulously successful!”
The answer to this is that it is true. There are many millionaires that did not have an education. But it is also true that there are many, many, people that never brush their teeth and have no cavities. Dentists cannot and should not deny this. However, it is also true that overall it is a terrible mistake not to brush your teeth and it is a terrible mistake not to get an education.
The stark conclusion is that we need to retool our entire education system and we need to retool it now. Our high schools have to teach English, writing and communication skills, and math skills. They have to do it and do it well. Our parent body has to demand it. They cannot be embarrassed about demanding excellence in education, either. Perhaps they should band together in groups and approach the principals of the schools with their desires.
Our elementary schools have to destroy the atmosphere that is pervasive in many chareidi elementary schools that English classes should be derided and abused. They are the life line that will vouchsafe the future honesty and integrity of our children.
This is the undiscussed “elephant in the room” that existed in the room last night. The problems addressed in the Agudah sponsored meeting will never be resolved until and unless the underlying causes are addressed.
The dire and terrible incidents of the past week should be viewed as wake-up call. We must act and act now. Perhaps another Asifash should be called. These issues are as important as any and they are necessary to ensure that our children have the skills necessary not only to thrive but to survive.
Just like in gardening one cannot resolve a weed problem by merely cutting the weeds in the middle. They must be pulled by the roots. So too must we resolve the underlying social problem in our system. We need to value the skills of communication, reading, and writing and to realize that education is the key to the future.
The author may be reached at [email protected]
another elephant in the room, in certain segments of society engaged couples are encouraged to legally marry so that benefit programs are in place by the time they halachically marry. We are not
There’s another elephant that was not discussed. In certain segments of society benefit programs are a way of life. Couples that are engaged marry legally right away so all benefits are in place when they marry halachically. They are not even given the opportunity to start off their married life in a straight manner. In some sectors even if your family is suppprting you the young couple is still expected to go on programs. Why was that not brought up?
Agreed. I grew up in Monsey and it was pathetic listening to some of those kids try and talk English. Then they wonder why they are poor and on welfare and public assistance. (Of course, the fact that these families have 12 kids doesn’t help either.)
I wish to reply to the above letter.
I am a chasidish mother in Williamsburg.
I feel as if the writer wrote what I was thinking.
There is no shame in teaching our children the basic reading, writing and arithmetic.
It is of utmost importance in today’s world.
The least we can do to correct this, is to give a special class to the Kolel yungeleit to prepare them with a parnassa after their 2 or 3 years in Kolel, and to teach them the basics of going into business or to work as an employee.
You get nothing for free. The banks do not offer you loans as a favor to you. The credit cards do not make offers as a favor to you. If you are not super careful, you pay for these offers big time.
it is a lie that we can not get good jobs with our poor english.
Do you think that the pakistani or spanish teller is more educated? !!
I
Excellent, excellent article! It is time to reinvigorate the Torah Im Derech Eretz ideology. It is what Rav Breuer ZT”L saw prophetically as the system that will enable us the thrive in America and I dare say in Eretz Yisrael. It is not a Bedieved approach to Yiddishkeit, it is Lichatchila! The “Torah only” approach of the previous generation was necessary as a Horas Shaah, it was successful in building real Torah here and in E”Y. Now it is time to go back and embrace Torah Im Derech Eretz as Yiddishkeit was meant to be.
I can tell you that I have a college degree, not from Turo or other purchased diploma. It is from a renowned university. But I have been discriminated in the world of business on steady basis. But the greatest discrimination came from the NYS office of professions. There are people in government that basically hate orthodox jews with passion. I had to get the ADL involved to help. So before you encourage people to get an education, remember we are treated as 3rd class citizens, and not much will change.
It’s ironic that in a post dealing with illegal activities that have been making the news recently, mention is made of a lack of high-school education in some Hareidi communities. The yeshivot and parents involved are breaking the law which mandates such an education for the youth. Do we really want to see the heads of those mosdot also hauled into court for their illegal behavior? Can we really afford to raise a generation which is incapable of legitimate self-support due to the lack of schooling?
Y. Aharon
The English education in our chasiddeshe elementary schools is pathetic at best.
And let’s be honest about it… It’s not going to change any time soon.
How can it change when in some of the schools the kids are not permitted to speak English “during the English classes”?? Sounds absurd? Well it’s sad and it’s true.
Good luck in finding a shidduch if you went to law, medical or other professional school without putting 3+ years into learning post high school.
All agree that there are many issues that can and should be discussed. However, it is not possible, or wise to discuss every issue at every event. What would then happen is that all of the issues would be watered down and people would come away without clarity. Better to focus on a few issues at a time. It is also worthwhile to keep in mind that the speakers at the event probably prepared their remarks well in advance. To change their prepared remarks at the last minute might not have been possible.
“The conclusions of course were that the bottom line is that Chassidim and all Hareidi Jews should conduct their financial activities lawfully”.
It is an embarrassment that frum people didn’t know that
As one of very few non charedim in last night’s audience, I can sum up the entire nearly three hour program as follows:” Don’t Steal. Don’t Cheat. Don’t Lie”,
On the eve of Tisha B’Av, it is truly tragic that nearly 2000 fellow yidin had to leave their families or the Bais Medresh to hear words they learned as children. Where have we failed that these words from Sinai are now sound bites for an emergency Asifah?
We need to Educate
I remeber my rebbe telling us that it is mitzvah for a father to tech his son a trade
I think in this Generation English would definitely be a prerequisite and qualify for a trade
BTW: with out spell check there would have been 4 errors in the above
While this conversation is well overdue. I applaud everyone involved. Now let’s see some REAL action.
It’s about time someone said this outloud. The question is will our leadership now wake up to the problem and do something about it or continue to hide their heads in the sand? I fear that even this will not serve as a wakeup call to the more systemic problem. Kolel is not for everyone (in fact probably not for most people) and we need to give our chilren a proper secular education so they can go out into the world and compete for better jobs so they will not have to resort to living off the government dime or worse. It’s time for our leaders and Gedolim to wake up.
What about all the companies you call up and you can’t understand a word the person is saying??
Something needs to be done to overhaul the English / vocational training for the future breadwinners of the next generation. Just pushing another year till Bar Mitzvah just to meet the Department of Education guidelines is not right. We have only ourselves to blame for not being preparing our future tattes!!!!
The spanish bank manager at my local branch told me he can’t spell numbers. I also believe that all the politicians involved in this and other scandals went thru college. And finally Dweck had a very good english speech when he stole millions. So what’s the solution???
yestoday at the ‘asufa’ in bp hr’ shorr said exact the oppisit, he said the problem is that we have to know that we r jews in ‘golus’ & we have b diffrend & sepprit from the ‘goyim’, & not like u r writing here that we have to learn english like the ‘goyim’ & thats gonna solve the problem here,
i think your article is agensed the ‘tora'(even u r a rabbi), & the main thing we have to knoe is that the ‘pornosa’ is gonna b how much hashem wants & not how much u try,
sorry & thanks for your coaperation
Big shtussim! in my shul the biggest millionaire can’t even sign his name properly.
The most educated people are sometimes struggling for a job.
I can’t forget when I went to collect tzadoka for a yesoma, a big real estate mogul / millionaire gave me a check of one “Tosand” dollars.. I just held my hand on my mouth not to burst out laughing, but the check cleared in the bank..
I know how to spell thousand, even a million, I went to special english classes, I went to Real estate school, had good spelling marks, and the bank still doesn’t wanna honor my checks..
What does an english education have to do with Parnossa?
We must remember that “Birchas Hamshem hi taashir – it is the blessing of G-d which gives us wealth”, and certainly he gives his blessing to those that follow in the ways of Torah and Mitzvos – Vehigisa Bo Yomam VoLailah!
A secular education will in no way halp make a Parnossa, being an upright Jew will.
All these people stealing money etc. Is now because of a lack of english education – just the opposite – its the lack of a proper Kosher Chinuch!!
Im a chasideshe yungerman witch learnt in a chasideshe yeshivah in boro park. Actually my yeshivah did have an english dep. But it was one big joke . My father wanted me to have some education so he sent me to rabbi s. Horowitz a chasideshe yid from boro park, and is part of the board of regents of ny. Rabbi H. Is a very smart person and a huge Talmid chuchem and does a huge mitzvah by teaching Heimshe bocherim english He has taught hundreds of Bocherim and most of them got deplomas. I finished my regents in two and a half years thanks two rabbi H. He does not charge a lot of money for lessons cause he does it basically for the sake of the bocherim. I want to end with thanking rabbi H. For helping me with me with my education and i hope if chas vesholom im going to have to leave Kollel ill get a decent job all thanks to rabbi H.
The best argument for Rabbi Hoffman is the letter below: [WIth translation in parentheses]
yestoday (Yesterday,)
at the ‘asufa’ in bp (Borough Park)
hr’ shorr (HaRav Shorr)
said exact (exactly)
the oppisit, (the opposite.)
he (He)
said the problem (said, “The problem)
is that we have to know that we r jews (are Jews)
in ‘golus’ & (and)
we have b diffrend (have to be different)
& sepprit (and separate)
from the ‘goyim’, & not like u r writing (you are writing)
here that we have to learn english (English)
like the ‘goyim’ & thats gonna (that’s going to)
solve the problem here,
i think your article is agensed (against)
the ‘tora'(even u r a rabbi), (even if you are a Rabbi)
& the main thing we have to knoe (know)
is that the ‘pornosa’ is gonna b (going to be)
how much hashem wants & not how much u try, (you try)
sorry & thanks for your coaperation (cooperation).
Let us not forget that anyone on the Sanhedrin had to be fluent in seventy languages. So Mordechai, Ezra and anyone else on the Sanhedrin was also against the Torah. Sorry, but most people respectfully disagree.
Great article. Thank You VIN for printing this and kudos to Yair Hoffman for this article. It is interesting to note that ‘jews’ are always complaining about the price of private education for their kids. What the h** are the schools charging so much money for if not an education? Some will say that the kids are getting a jewish education. The problem is, that as evidenced from many recent stories (on Vin and mainstream Media), this is not true either, unless jewish education is teaching them to lie, steal, cheat, swindle, abuse.. In actuality, (some of) the schools are, since they encourage students / parents to lie on their applications (in order to get more Government money). School Administrators do the same thing. So what are people paying for?
Clearly these schools are failing since when it comes time for these yeshiva boys to date, they are awkward, have no idea how to treat a girl properly like a Lady & Woman. This translates into abusing them and the relationships during their quick dating & marriage. If the marriage survives (barely), the kids are mistreated / abused, and learn from the bad behavior of the parents & the cycle continues; first difficult kids, then ‘teens at risk’, then bad behaving adults…
As far as spelling, for many years there have been ESL (English as a Second Language) programs which teach English. There is nothing stopping these uneducated jews from availing themselves of it. Of course, it is much better to change the Yeshivha / Bais Yaakov system to have them learn it properly the first time (the rabbis are clearly at fault for this – They have put a big guilt trip on jews for many years that Secular Studies are anti – jewish. Now we see the results of this silly, stupid (and anti – jewish) thinking, and many people are paying the price for this. As far as spelling in writing on these Posts & many printed applications (even everyday letters), people can and should use S P E L L C H E C K.
Totally off, this is not the problem, I know many long time employees in a big firm that are missing spelling skills, and they hold successful jobs in successful places.
And I bet you, even the bakery that labeled the cake “spunch” cake makes a lot of money..
I’m am sorry to disagree, but the matter is not so simple. In the 65 years since orthodoxy was established on these shores many attempts have been made to implement a proper secular curriculum in our yeshivos. All have failed. The reason is because none of these programs could be implemented successfully. All the yeshivahs ended up with was addtional expense and behaviour problems. The problem is much more fundemental than simply ‘teaching english’.
Also consider this. Most boys in my class in yeshiva spent 15 years in yeshiva with me and came out the other end funtionaly illiterate in both limedei kodesh and limudei chol. What percentage of yeshiva boys know how to read or write and comprehend any language? If you really think about it you will see that the statistics are stagering. Our yeshivas serve at best only 10% of boys. The rest come out so-so or total ignoramouses. And this after spending 16 hours a day 6 days a week in class compared to the standard 5 hours a day 5 days a week with vacation for mothers day a groundhog day.
So the problem is not ‘education’ but rather much more fundamental. It involves the whole lifestyle and way of living we have set up for ourselves.
Frankly I don’t know why you picked ‘education’ as the elephant in the room. A far greater contributor to our predicament vis-a-vis the secular world and the authorities is our isolated lifestyles. We have no exposure to the outside world and we are not ingrained with the norms and manners of the general population. We are self-created misfits, and condemned to remain this way unless some bold and creative leadership emerges from somewhere. We all know that this is not going to happen. But if we continue on the way we are going, eventually something will have to give.
The cycle repeats itself.
Can somebody please tell me where all these jobs are growing on trees for people with math and English skills? I have a degree in Mathematics from an Engineering University, 20 years of professional experience in industry and I have been out of work for 2 years.
The Rebbi said:” Out of necessity we allowed ourselves to indulge in illegal acts”
Perhaps some focus on what caused this necessity would help avoid future acts of desperation?
She-nir’eh et nehamat Yerushalayim u-binyanah bi-mherah ve-yamenu
KT
The problem is that there are people who think they are above the law and above society. A lot of the Chareidim, high mucky-muck Rabbis, and even a lot of Yeshivish/Litvish people think that because they learn lots and lots of Torah, civil laws and societal norms simply don’t apply to them. Thats how they can take advantage of the system and still maintain their high moral platform. Well, I have news for you: NO ONE is above the law. In addition, their abuse of the system gives the rest of us law-abiding Jews a bad name. And please don’t bring other peoples and races into this. We can only police and be responsible for ourselves. “Eisav soneh es Ya’akov”, no matter what. Is there anti-Semitism in the workplace? Absolutely. But should we give them even MORE reason to hate us by disregarding law? Well, apparently, the answer to THAT question isn’t as easy as I thought…
JMHO
Ihave a son in shiduchim who learned for 3 years in Eretz Yisroel, is in yeshiva all day here, BUT GOES TO TOURO AT NIGHT for a degree and he’s lost many shiduchim because of him going to school AT NIGHT!!!
The Author Rabbi Hoffman wrote a very nice column, however if you will look at the other columns posted on this website over the last few days about the money laundering scheme written by “non heimish” authors most people had one problem with them “why are they generalizing one sect”? Rabbi Hoffman is doing the same thing. I and many of my classmates, my children and my coworkers all went or presently go to Chasidisha Mosdos. My coworkers one a bookkeeper, one a project manger and myself a business owner all have long beards a payos my children and there children all know how to spell and speak English correctly. Rabbi Hoffman with all due respect most mosdos have an English department! My target would be the parents who don’t stress the importance of the education not the Mosdos.
And yes most Roshei Yeshiva are doing there job trying to get their talmidim to be Klei Kodesh. If a young man opts not to become a rebbi or Kollel yungerman he has plenty of options regarding continuing his education. Yes there is a stigma about collage however when one really wants to get that education he has no problems. We all have seen the chasidisha doctors, lawyers, & accountants. There are Chasidisha Contractors, licensed electricians and licensed plumbers. The problem lies in the individual himself (Like Mr. Brafman said last night), who has the opinion that “the world owes me”. If every father would follow the torah and the mishna that states that a father should teach his son a trade we all would be better off. Its time for everyone stop pointing fingers and take responsibility for his own family only then can we start commenting regarding others.
I’m am sorry to disagree, but the matter is not so simple. In the 65 years since orthodoxy was established on these shores many attempts have been made to implement a proper secular curriculum in our yeshivos. All have failed. The reason is because none of these programs could be implemented successfully. All the yeshivahs ended up with was addtional expense and behaviour problems. The problem is much more fundemental than simply ‘teaching english’.
Also consider this. Most boys in my class in yeshiva spent 15 years in yeshiva with me and came out the other end funtionaly illiterate in both limedei kodesh and limudei chol. What percentage of yeshiva boys know how to read or write and comprehend any language? If you really think about it you will see that the statistics are stagering. Our yeshivas serve at best only about 10% of boys. The rest come out so-so or total ignoramouses. And this after spending 16 hours a day 6 days a week in class compared to the standard 5 hours a day 5 days a week with vacation for mothers day a groundhog day.
So the problem is not ‘education’ but rather much more fundamental. It involves the whole lifestyle and way of living we have set up for ourselves.
Frankly I don’t know why you picked ‘education’ as the elephant in the room. A far greater contributor to our predicament vis-a-vis the secular world and the authorities is our isolated lifestyles. We have no exposure to the outside world and we are not ingrained with the norms and manners of the general population. We are self-created misfits, and condemned to remain this way unless some bold and creative leadership emerges from somewhere. We all know that this is not going to happen. But if we continue on the way we are going, eventually something will have to give.
The cycle repeats itself.
It is not just a matter of education. It is a matter of learning social norms. As an executive of a highly successful VC backed company and having spent many years in the business world, I can tell you that I cringe at employing fellow Chareidi applicants. The times that I did hire I was embarrassed by the lack of basic social skills. They were highly intelligent, highly motivated, but lacked simple judgment on what is appropriate and what is not. We have a lot of work to do and I hope this wakeup call is a good start. We must really shake ourselves from this delusional superiority complex that we have and address some very basic things. We have significant attributes to offer but they get clouded and overlooked by the very basic public shortcomings…. A much easier problem to fix provided we recognize the problem.
sorry Rabbi but trying to implement a diffrent hashkafa and impose it on the chsidisher and yeshivishe system just aint gonna work.
That statistics show that there are 15 million out of work today and the vast majority of those out of work know English perfectly.
Ben Brafman did in fact speak about precisely this “elephant in the room” at the asifah.
Also, as some noted above:
– Many of the swindlers are polished and worldly (although perhaps not the most credentialed)
– The US labor market is flooded with people who cannot speak English properly or even intelligibly, including as bank tellers, so I’m not sure that is the best example to use. However, to rise beyond these entry-level positions does indeed require advanced education, so the overall point stands.
Every time somebody brings up the merit of higher education in the frum community the answer is always the same: “I know person A who doesn’t even know how to read and he’s a millionaire or I know person B who learned in kollel for 10 years and now has a successful company”. People are absolutely right, stories like this do happen. What people don’t take time to think about is that the ratio of these people to other poverty-stricken frum people is about 10,000:1.
The merit of higher education is that people have opportunities to fall back on. You may be able to do to it totally on your own, but let me assure everyone here that a degree sure does help.
Yair makes a point but its a turnoff,
to stand a chance of changing a system you need to understand it,the Gedolim are still living. so please discuss the issues with them before bashing a community or many communities.
modernizing and educating are quite different of each other and need not be combined.
tellers jobs and knowing how to write and speak is ridiculous proof to a problem.
perhaps they offer low pay with no advancement, perhaps the environment is not appropo.
to point out that to be matzliach you need to be college educted is wrong and false.
take a look and you will see.
there are educted millionaires and crimminals and uneducated ones too.
This article is misdirected. Honesty is not a function of education or wealth, it is a function of proper character traits and a healthy does of yiras shomayim.
There are plenty of fine, ehrlich people who have a limited secular education and a limited parnassah. Conversely, there are plenty of wealth, well-educated crooks.
(That is not to say that parnassah is not an important issue in its own right. But just because someone has a secure parnassah does not mean he will act honestly in his business and financial dealings.)
After reading all the posts here, it is clear that there are two camps. One, some people agree with the basic thesis of the article, that Yeshivas are failing to educate our children and therefore, out of desperation, people are stealing to make a living. The other side disagrees, and says that it has nothing to do with the lack of english studies etc, that if a person has the proper chinuch, we should not even need to discuss this, the proper haskofah will prevent this from happening.
Both are correct. We all know that the vast majority of Yidden are honest people, with the proper hashkofah, and live life perhaps without wealth, but with Torah and Gemilus Chesed. We also know people such as the informer in this case, that had everything going for him, yichus, intelligence, a good yeshiva education etc, and he still stole from people. How do we respond? what is the way forward? every child is an indivdual, and as individuals -everyone needs a plan….no parnassah? perhaps you need to consider training before marriage. Good learner and motivated? Kollel etc. Girl back from seminary,,,,if she is not married right away, some sort of program…..the bottom line is that every Jew is responsible for everyone else, but also for him- herself-when people learn to take care of themselves in an honest way-these things dont happen, we need our Gedolim to enourage these more positive ideas,we know they agree but its time to say something
Rabbi Hoffman, I’ll email you after Tisha B’Av my response. However for the readers at large, I’ll just highlight the main objections.
1- In the same Gemara that you quote, there is another opinion of teaching ones child ONLY TORAH and not the other 5 or 6 trades.
2- The Heiliger Chasam Sofer didn’t even recognize the secular Alphabets. He reluctantly agreed to practice his signature as Moses Schreiber, since he was the Rav of the City, which required him to sign his name officially.
3- I’ve been involved in Chinuch for many years, and YES, there has been the opinion of some Gedolia Yisroel, NOT to learn any English whatsoever. I’m not taking sides if they were right or not, all I’m saying, that if taking the route of being illiterate, HAS the backing of some serious Gedalie Torah. In my private email to you, I’ll point then out.
4- The reason for Chassidim not being tellers, is due to the low paying salary the tellers get.
Have an easy fast, May Tisha B’av turn into a Chag, still this year.
Don’t blame our problems on education. It’s a lot more complex than that. You need to take into account home attitudes, as well. By that I mean both toward honesty and education.
The underlying issue is the cost of jewish living. How about the following solution to the tuition crisis. Start off by putting a one year holiday for all tuition? Mandate that all maaser money go to a yeshiva scholarship fund divided appropriately by a Vaad Hayeshivos Fund run by community rabbonim with open book transparency. The money saved on the tuition will stumulate the jewish economy more than any government stimulus package will. People will be able to invest in businesses and create jobs. The maaser money from the profits and incomes this creates will help support yeshivas in years to come.
Perhaps the reason why the jewish economy is failing is because we’ve been running it like the democrats. Tax people to death and spend on social programs. Perhaps the way to run it is like the republicans. Lower taxes, stimulate the economy and create jobs for people to get out of social welfare programs.
listen folks
our parents came from Europe into the promised land of the US in terrible circumstances. They had no money , no family, and no easy life. But most of all, they were confused and angry by what had happened to European Jewry. So what did they do? Some of them lost their religion and became Americans so to forget the past. Others, as a reaction, isolated themselves and tried to transplant prewar jewish life in the US as much as possible including language and dress. One of the ways people deal with guilt is to keep on doing what is wrong and tell themselves that it is really right or a even mitzva. mimiking prewar Europe exactly and ignoring the realties is a form of false revenge in Hitler YM”SH and an ignorant way of dealing with guilt of how so many jews were butchered and could not fend for themselves during the Shoa.
Rabboisai it did not work before the war and it aint gonna work today. we need to raise a generation that could support themselves honerably and support the Jewish causes the Jewish way. Not everything old from the shtetl is positive. lets leave the smuggling, illiteracy, isolation, and Machlokes in the Shtetles, and bring to the US only the depth the Toirah, the Chesed and Middos, and the kedusha of the shtetl. but it will only work by adopting Torah im Education. Isolation breeds genieva and anti semitism. Education breeds happiness and ruchaniyus
hope I got my point across
A Chusid of Boro-Park
The Satmere rebbe zt”l knew all this what you are writing and he still was against having his Talmidim go to college . There is a very famous story that the Satmere rebbe had a argument discussion with Reb Moshe Feinstein zt”l about his talmidim going to college.Debating back and forth the rebbe saw he is not getting anywhere he turned around to Reb Moshe zt”l and said…Ir veist vus ich vel eich zugen..Your talmidim will grow up Doctors,Lawyers,Accountants,and Bankers and mine talmidim will grow up Balei Batim ,Sochrim and Business people and my talmidim will be the clients and patients of your talmidim….Raboysei his holy words are so true as you can see in those days…Chas veshlim if you are in the Hospital who is your doctor? 60% it will be one of his talmidim .If you need a lawyer who is representing you ,most likely it will be a talmid of Rem Moshe zt”l….If you need a roll of plastic or a printing job,construction or a camera from b&h it will be a satmere talmid..
Couldn’t have written better myself (because im a graduate of such a talmud torah) but im out in the real world now and im really upset what the TT did with us. they think the cheated the govt but not following the proper courses. but we are the ones suffering now. what a shame. they stole a proper education from us. we have to work longer hours for less pay because of them. of course the leaders don’t care since they are fully qualified for their job (whatever that might be). have they ever wondered why they need to fund-raise outside of their neighborhood.. how long will we suffer from “leaders” that do not look out for our well being.
Very well written and timely article.
I am afraid that there is a major obstacle impeding change in this regard in the Chareidi community. A brief history lesson of “Daas Torah”.
Reb Ahron Kotler ZT”KL ruled that college is not allowed for bnei torah in his yeshiva. This has been interpreted as a blanked issur on college. Reb Elya Svei took this to mean and applied it to Touro College, which he felt was a terrible idea.
Rav Ruderman Z’TL allowed college and helped people get joint degrees from Ner Yisroel and other places. He actually advised my father to go to college. However, when I learned in Ner Yisroel, I was strongly advised by other hanhalla members including Rabbi Neuberger, Z”L not to go.
When I was learing in Lakewood, a yungerman who is now a respected Mechanech asked me to help him start a yeshiva for the young teenagers who were not making it in regular yeshivas. He said that he wanted to provied them constructive alternatives to learning all day or else he feared they would end up on the street, on drugs, off the derech, etc.
His plan was to train them to be car mechanics and truck drivers. These were the ONLY options he offered. I assumed that he was working with kids with learning disabilities and limited scholastic potential. He said, no, acutally, many of these boys were very, very smart, but for whatever reason could not learn Torah all day long. So I asked him why not offer them a way to also become doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, artists, musicians, etc.
He said that this was not allowed in the city of Lakewood because it invovled real secular education.
If the writer (or anyone else) has a way around this ideology to implemement his great ideas, I would love to hear it.
Go around and check out most people arrested now and in other cases, most of them have a perfect English and proper spelling skills.
For instance the crook of Deal Dwek) that robbed a bank $50 million dollars has a super English, great spelling, and hardly talks any other language
The English curriculum needs to be administered with an eye toward ferreting out each child’s natural inclination. Hashem gave each of us talents, many of which can be expressed within a good English curriculum geared toward later parnassa. It is not enough to offer the English curriculum half-heartedly, for compliance sake, as a token curriculum. Many children leave the derech because their talents are never revealed and nurtured.
Rabbi Hoffman: But Ben Brafman DID lament about the lack of high school education! listen to the audio! and BTW Agudah in the form of Cope Institute is and has over the last 15 years been educating Chasidic and Litvishe bochurim in English and accounting skills and has even recently graduated (in affiliation with a reputable college) 100 students that have an accounting degree and are able to sit for the CPA exam! Boy will the examiners be surprised to see all these long bearded fellows sitting for the CPA test soon! Thank you Leon Goldenberg and Agudah for pushing it through…..