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Israel - Chief Rabbinate: Tel-Aviv Club Attack 'unthinkable, vile crime'

Published on: August 2, 2009 09:55 AM
By:  Ynet
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Go to Article  Israeli paramedics treat victims after a shooting incident in a basement club in central Tel Aviv August 1, 2009. Israel - The Chief Rabbinate expressed shock and outrage at the Tel Aviv shooting at a gay youth center Saturday evening, calling it “an unthinkable, vile crime.” In a statement published Sunday the Rabbinate said that, “When Moses saw a Jew beating another Jew he called him evil. This is all the more true when a Jew murders a Jew.”

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Rabbi Ron Yosef, a gay Orthodox rabbi who runs the organization, told Ynet that he has been receiving threats on his life in the last year.

“I call on the Israeli and especially public leaders and rabbis from across the political spectrum, to denounce and condemn this crime and expressions of hatred and violence, and act firmly against the verbal and physical violence directed at gays and lesbians,” Rabbi Yosef stated.



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2

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:18 AM elie Says:

Sorry for the Typo above, I meant to write Contradicting.

3

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:10 AM thinker Says:

noone should beat anyone. but what is an orthodox gay rabbi? doesn't the jewish bible prohibit male homosexual activity?

4

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:02 AM Confused Says:

"a gay Orthodox rabbi "
Could someone help me out?
What does Orthodox mean?

5

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:41 AM Anonymous Says:

This was an act thru God orthodox gay rabbi can't you see?

6

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:37 AM Anonymous Says:

To all of you: Did you all forget the 10 commandments all of a sudden?

7

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:37 AM oncefrum Says:

How can all the people recently busted in the financial schemes be orthodox and guilty of money laundering and other crimes? Isn't it a contradiction also?

8

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:37 AM Orthodox Says:

Reply to #4  
Confused Says:

"a gay Orthodox rabbi "
Could someone help me out?
What does Orthodox mean?

I guess orthodox is more a "style" then a religious meaning..

9

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:35 AM Yossi Says:

"A gay Orthodox rabbi"?!?!?!?! Holy Moses! What has this world come to???

10

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:34 AM Anonymous Says:

Chayav Misa from Hashem.

11

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:33 AM learner Says:

Tell for that so called orthodox rabbi that he forget to learn porshos pinches.

12

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:29 AM Anonymous Says:

I think everyone is thinking the same thing but no one is commenting, on one hand what community services does this offer except for justifying a lifestyle...this center has zero tolerance in a Jewish environment. On the other hand murdering and judging on our end is also 100 prcnt wrong.
This center should be closed and don't address this man as an orthodox rabbi,

13

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:47 AM Anonymous Says:

one who is gay is no chayav meeta. one who acts on his gay feelings as the tora describes is chayav meeta. and it has to be done with 2 witnisess

14

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:44 AM Anonymous Says:


He is an oxymoron

15

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:51 AM Anonymous Says:

"gay", "orthodox" , "rabbi", sick!!! maybe it will teach them not to push their parade

16

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:58 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
Anonymous Says:

"gay", "orthodox" , "rabbi", sick!!! maybe it will teach them not to push their parade

Maybe the future consequences of your vile posting will teach you never to make such a comment again about yidden. hashem yarachem on your family.

18

 Aug 02, 2009 at 10:02 AM now frum Says:

Reply to #7  
oncefrum Says:

How can all the people recently busted in the financial schemes be orthodox and guilty of money laundering and other crimes? Isn't it a contradiction also?

I feel your pain

20

 Aug 02, 2009 at 10:00 AM Anonymous Says:

why is the article assuming that the gunman was jewish maybe it was an arab or any other person?

21

 Aug 02, 2009 at 10:00 AM Anonymous Says:

No. Someone who is a 'Practising' gay is. Everyone has forbidden desires. Some are just diffrent from the norm.

22

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:56 AM Anonymous Says:

Pinchas witnessed the couple in the middle of a lewd act & then killed them. For those who believe that the shooter was correctly following the example of Pinchas, what acts did the shooter witness before killing/ injuring his victims? And why, exactly, would a girl be chayav misa for visiting a gay youth center?

23

 Aug 02, 2009 at 10:05 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

This was an act thru God orthodox gay rabbi can't you see?

so when the number one bus blows up should we say its from god because the jews are making a chillul hashem by fighting with police every fri night?

24

 Aug 02, 2009 at 10:05 AM gregaaron Says:

There was more than one "unspeakable, vile crime" taking place there that day...

25

 Aug 02, 2009 at 10:29 AM HAGTBG Says:

A shame that people here are more scared about what goes on in someone's bedroom then murder. There was no beit din judgment; there is no beit din that can hear the death penalty today and there was no trial and even if there had been these people could not be convicted; no warning or witnesses. Even if the murderer ends up being not Jewish, yet people here defend his crimes. But he's whether Jewish or not, the people who support this murder are sick!

26

 Aug 02, 2009 at 10:21 AM Anonymous Says:

How can you make such a statement? Does hashem speak directly to you and explain his plans. I suspect you should also be preparing for a visit from such a shaliach.

27

 Aug 02, 2009 at 10:18 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

so when the number one bus blows up should we say its from god because the jews are making a chillul hashem by fighting with police every fri night?

It was Bus number TWO, and thats no comparison whatsover!

28

 Aug 02, 2009 at 10:31 AM Anonymous Says:

To #19 You are ok ing murder! What are you? An animal? What happened to the aseres hadibros? Did you throw everything you were taught in the garbage because somebody is not like you are? You are giving murder the o.k. I hope you do not teach your kids that!! You are dangerous on the street! I hope VIN prints this!

29

 Aug 02, 2009 at 10:15 AM Anonymous Says:

You should look forward to a similiar visit from a shiliach from the ebeshter for wishing death on another yid. Do teshuvah quickly

30

 Aug 02, 2009 at 10:14 AM Dikduk Says:

The Torah calls the homosexual "act" a to'eyvah.

A person who has ta'ayvos, but doesn't act on them, i.e., who restrains his yeitzer hora, is praisworthy. This is true whether the potential aveirah is a forbidden sexual act (whether heterosexual or homosexual), or retzichah, or some other aveirah.

However, once a person commits the aveirah, again whether it is a forbidden sexual aveirah, the aveirah of retzichah, or some other aveirah, that person is in another parshah. V'hamivin yavin.

The rotzei'ach, in the event under consideration, falls into the latter category.

31

 Aug 02, 2009 at 11:05 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

so when the number one bus blows up should we say its from god because the jews are making a chillul hashem by fighting with police every fri night?

certainly noone can ever KNOW G-ds reason for doing anything, and certainly evrything comes from him. that being said. the number TWO bus didn't "blow up" it was BLOWN up by a terrorist intending to kill jews- which he did- all diff "types" of jews. And as is well known when a jew is killed because he is a jew that is considered dying 'al kiddush hashem'.
However when somone is in middle of doing a terrible sin or associating/promoting a sin and he is stopped in some way, than although it certainly doesnt excuse murder,yet and evil act was stopped, which is a good thing

32

 Aug 02, 2009 at 11:04 AM No One is Chayav Misa here Says:

Without judging what those men were or were ot doing at that club that night, (because it's not my business) one thing is for certain; That even if they did an actual maseh biya with eidim and hasroah-which is doubtful, since there is no sanhedrin today, he is certainly not chayiv misa bidei odom and whomever killed them is a rotzeiach. If you were able to see the rotzeiach intent, you would have the right to kill him, since acc to the torah he is a rodaif and according to secular law-to prevent the commission of a felony.
As far as the young men in the club, they were probabley confused, lost, and with the proper help and love; if given as opposed to shunning them, would have been alot more productive than putting them in a grave.

33

 Aug 02, 2009 at 11:02 AM Anonymous Says:

And people wonder why the non frum hate the frum. It wasn't a club, it was a support group in a community center. whether you approve of what they are is not the point. People are born gay, it's not a choice. As for those who say it's assur to be gay and they got what they deserved, it's assur to do homosexual acts, not to be gay. Why don't I see you sitting alongside the highway on shabbos with a machine gun shooting at everyone being mechalel shabbos there? I sincerely hope one of your kids doesn't to go off the derech, or chas veshalom kill themselves because they think they're gay and know that you believe they deserve to be killed. You bunch of sick people trying to justify murder, i think i saw a girl in Boro park dressed untznius. Why don't you go riot for a bit?

34

 Aug 02, 2009 at 11:17 AM Anonymous Says:

We are talking today about COLD BLOODED MURDER!! I read that 2 or 3 people are now dead 15 are hurt!!! Thanks to this ANIMAL!! We can discuss people's sexual preferences at another time!! NOT when people are dying!!

35

 Aug 02, 2009 at 10:58 AM Anonymous Says:

the word orthodox has nothing to do with jews or level of yiddihkiet . look it up in the dictionary

36

 Aug 02, 2009 at 10:57 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #25  
HAGTBG Says:

A shame that people here are more scared about what goes on in someone's bedroom then murder. There was no beit din judgment; there is no beit din that can hear the death penalty today and there was no trial and even if there had been these people could not be convicted; no warning or witnesses. Even if the murderer ends up being not Jewish, yet people here defend his crimes. But he's whether Jewish or not, the people who support this murder are sick!

"what goes on in peoples bedrooms" is oone thing. part of the problem with these moral degenerates is that they insist on bringing their bedroom into public view and shoving it into peoples faces

37

 Aug 02, 2009 at 10:57 AM Anonymous Says:

if the church can have a roman orthodox priest then why cant jewish gays have a gay orthodox rabbi

38

 Aug 02, 2009 at 11:20 AM Dag Says:

Think this through, if people can justify murder at a gay meeting, what is to stop them from justifying murder at the parking lot in Jerusalem, or for murdering women who don’t go to the Mikva?

This was murder, 100% and there is NO justification

39

 Aug 02, 2009 at 10:39 AM Anonymous Says:

g-d help us all

we have condoned / fostered an atmosphere of intolerance and violence towards those that differ with us (charedi demonstrations against parking garage & mother accused of starving her baby as an example) and now this !

i pray the culprit should not be one associated with the religious camps .. for we will all have to share the blame then

40

 Aug 02, 2009 at 10:11 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
oncefrum Says:

How can all the people recently busted in the financial schemes be orthodox and guilty of money laundering and other crimes? Isn't it a contradiction also?

good point, but two rejoinders:
1. Assuming that the people are guilty, there has to be an understanding that people commit sins - even terrible ones - and are still considered frum. Otherwise are you not frum for missing zman krias shema (meuvas lo yuchal liskon)?
2. Do not jump to conclusions about the veracity of the charges and, even if you are foolish enough to accept them at face value and ignore the fact that many committed the crimes to help others or you have already decided what to do in such a moral dilemma, remember: im raisa talmid chacham sheavar aveirah b'layal al tiharheir acharav bayom shemah asa teshuva. shema salka daytach? ela vaday asa teshuva. And we only have one unwavering moral and ethical code in the world - the Torah - everything else is a cheap imitation.

41

 Aug 02, 2009 at 12:36 PM Anonymous Says:

WHH

The Niftar are just kids! All this pilpul back and forth is not relevant here.

42

 Aug 02, 2009 at 12:21 PM PMO Says:

From what i understand... this is a group of Orlthodx gays who are encouraged to talk with each other, and have a place where they feel saft to talk about their taivos (to not feel shamed). But NOT to act on their taivos. There is nothing wrong with that. Let's not turn this horrible murder into something it is not.

The fact is that 3 yidden have been murdered. That is all I need to know to feel pain in my heart.

43

 Aug 02, 2009 at 12:49 PM sechel hayashar Says:

murder is a horrific sin. but i dont understand why, the moment gays and lesbians are targeted, everyone jumps on the liberal bandwagon to justify people who are an abomination to all that is holy. all of you who rushed to accept their "way of life" and "choice of orientation", need a serious reality check about your ideals and concept of right and wrong.

44

 Aug 02, 2009 at 12:48 PM PMO Says:

In reference to my previous post. This Orthodox "gay" rabbi runs a group for people who have these taivos and do not (or try to not) act on them. That is not necessarily the purpose of this particular club apparently.

45

 Aug 02, 2009 at 12:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reading so many comments here that try to excuse murder of human beings through halachik reasons opens my eyes to the barbarity of "ultra orthodox" education. Maybe Europeans were right when they showed their middle finger to organized religions in past century. They realized that religions create any "holy explanations" that bring devastation to humanity and that is why there are less wars on their continent today. Muslim extremists also create all sorts of rulings based on their korans to justify murder of innocent people, but I'm sure orthodox Jews will agree on many things with Taliban.

46

 Aug 02, 2009 at 01:24 PM Anonymous Says:

3 points: 1. this was not a gay dance club, it was a support group for teens who are struggling with their sexuality. 2. You can be a gay Orthodox Rabbi, its not an aveirah to have gay feelings, the issur is only on committing a sexual act. So if the rabbi does not commit this act, and is devoted to living an orthodox lifestyle, he can be a gay ortho rabbi. 3. it is exactly this "chayav misa" hate mongering that leads to attacks like this in the first place, so anyone who vocalizes things like that is partially responsible for this crime. Who are you to judge another yid whom you dont even know?

47

 Aug 02, 2009 at 01:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Many of those who justified killing homosexuals merely because they were gay also justified killing jews merely because they were jews.

48

 Aug 02, 2009 at 01:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
learner Says:

Tell for that so called orthodox rabbi that he forget to learn porshos pinches.

According to you to we should probably kill most jews because most are mechalel shabbos. People like you are dangerous!!!

49

 Aug 02, 2009 at 01:39 PM Anonymous Says:

These three murdered young men and women were like the innocent victims in Mumbai or the innocent victims of terror bombings on a bus or missile attack. There is no rationale or justification for such cold blooded murder of jews, whatever we may think of their reason for being a specific place.

50

 Aug 02, 2009 at 01:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Will any of your posts bring the dead back to life? 3 are DEAD!! MURDERED in COLD BLOOD!! Let the murderer turn himself in!!

51

 Aug 02, 2009 at 01:08 PM Torah Observant Survivor Says:

Babies have intense feelings toward their parents.
These feelings range from overwhelming love, to intense rage.
If the feelings are validated, they are processed, and integrated into a mature personality.
If those feelings are intercepted in an unhealthy way the intensity does not have an outlet.
Intense feelings are sexualized in young adults.
A person, male or female who is responsive to the emotional needs of an intensely needy young adult can trigger sexual feelings.
Awareness of this reality, and acknowledgement of it is the key.
Acting on it is 100% wrong, halachically and psychologically.

Feelings rise and feelings fall, especially if you observe them non-judgmentally and let them go.
Over-reacting judgementally to a negative feeling leads to all kinds of unhealthy obsessions and guilt.
Acting out on unhealthy or premature sexuality, increases the drive, instead of postponing it for an appropriate relationship.
Encouraging a young adult to act out sexually is irresponsible and/or abusive.
Any adult who takes pleasure from the vulnerability of an emotionally deprived young adult is being selfish at best.

A healthy adult who validates emotionally, but stays focused on reality and long-term goals can help emotionally wounded or deprived teenagers heal.

May Hashem help us all with our individual nisyonos.

52

 Aug 02, 2009 at 11:41 AM HAGTBG Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

"what goes on in peoples bedrooms" is oone thing. part of the problem with these moral degenerates is that they insist on bringing their bedroom into public view and shoving it into peoples faces

Do you realize your distinction makes no sense unless you are justifying the murders here?

53

 Aug 02, 2009 at 11:38 AM Tzi Bar David Says:

#37, I am not sure I follow the logic. But "gay Orthodox Rabbi" is something that cannot exist, like a fish that lives in a treetop, or a cat that lives at the bottom of the ocean. Why do these people force themselves on others? It's one thing to live quietly in sin, another thing entirely to flaunt your sin before the whole city, and tell the others that are offended that we are are the sinners for not "embracing" their degeneracy.

54

 Aug 02, 2009 at 11:33 AM Anonymous Says:

The three kadoshim who were murdered last night for their beliefs, their lifestyle or for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time, are no different than any other innocent victims of terrorism, whether in Mumbai, a bus in Tel Aviv or a missile landing in Ashdod....all are the same. Hashem yarachem their families.

55

 Aug 02, 2009 at 04:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #53  
Tzi Bar David Says:

#37, I am not sure I follow the logic. But "gay Orthodox Rabbi" is something that cannot exist, like a fish that lives in a treetop, or a cat that lives at the bottom of the ocean. Why do these people force themselves on others? It's one thing to live quietly in sin, another thing entirely to flaunt your sin before the whole city, and tell the others that are offended that we are are the sinners for not "embracing" their degeneracy.

who exactly flaunted anything? some murderer walks into a club and starts shoooting. would u want somone coming into your shteeble and start shooting innocent bystanders?

56

 Aug 02, 2009 at 03:46 PM Put It in Perspective Says:

Reply to #53  
Tzi Bar David Says:

#37, I am not sure I follow the logic. But "gay Orthodox Rabbi" is something that cannot exist, like a fish that lives in a treetop, or a cat that lives at the bottom of the ocean. Why do these people force themselves on others? It's one thing to live quietly in sin, another thing entirely to flaunt your sin before the whole city, and tell the others that are offended that we are are the sinners for not "embracing" their degeneracy.

We need to stop and think for a moment what is really going on which such "groups" and what it really all means, reading between the lines.

The vast majority of the world are strait, yet no "rabbi", calls himself the "heterosexual_rabbi", nor is there any such "club" called the "Frum_Heterosexual_club" or "minyan".

Why not?

Firs of all our sexual orientation is not something we stamp on our forehead or Advertise on our door-post, regardless of what it may be.

The people who do advertise their orientation do so Not for the reality of what it is, but because their only intent, of the advertisement, is only intended to make a statemnt (upon the face of all those who are disgusted by it) to justify their actual deed and actual behavior, in action.

Again all such "advertiser's" do so, not so that the world should "merely know" what type of yetzer HARA, they have, (and have Rachmones on their nebech Perversion form normality) but rather their one and only purpose is, to make a statement, to justify the actual deed and actual behavior (and not that they are saying that they are NOT acting on their Taavos, but rather their point is the exact opposite that it's Chas Vesholom "OK" to act on it).

Torah says that this behavior is plain and simple disgusting and that the Taaveh, is a Taaveh to actualy do something which is disgusting.

It is not a purely "theoretical Taaveh" rather it is a Taaveh that is to actually Do something disgusting, unlike people who are strait, where it has a perfectly Kosher outlet.

Under US Law, freedom of speech gives perverted people the "right" to let the world know how disgusting they are. This is their right to show the world who they are.

However the same freedom of speech also give the rest of the strait world the exact same perfect right to let all the preverts know, how we feel about perverted people who, as a rule, generaly all act on their perverted digsuting Taavos.

If the perverts want to claim "freedom of speech" for their publicity, they must likewise accept our freedom of speech to condemn their despicable behavior and their Taavah which is intended, (even as a Taavah alone) to actually do the deed which the Taavah is striving to achieve - a Taaveh for the actual disgusting Act.

Of course it goes without saying that there is no justification for harming anyone physically, no matter how perverted or disgusting they are.

57

 Aug 02, 2009 at 03:16 PM ploni ben ploni Says:

the posts here are absolutely appalling.

Shame on those who avoid discussing the murder of fellow Jews and instead concentrate on whether a gay Orthodox rabbi is an oxymoron. How do know how he lives his life? For all you know him and his he could be a lamed vavnik.

Shame on those who justify the murder of their fellow Jews. chayav meeta indeed. Were you there? Did you witness acts requiring a death penalty?

A community that professes to be righteous before HaShem - where the leaders commit felonies every waking moment of their lives(oppressing the ger, sitting in silence while their children are raped, cheat and steal in their business dealings - should not be first to cast the first stone!

Shame on you all.

58

 Aug 02, 2009 at 03:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #53  
Tzi Bar David Says:

#37, I am not sure I follow the logic. But "gay Orthodox Rabbi" is something that cannot exist, like a fish that lives in a treetop, or a cat that lives at the bottom of the ocean. Why do these people force themselves on others? It's one thing to live quietly in sin, another thing entirely to flaunt your sin before the whole city, and tell the others that are offended that we are are the sinners for not "embracing" their degeneracy.

No one is asking you to embrace anything. They are merely asking to live and let live.

59

 Aug 02, 2009 at 04:43 PM Shlomo Says:

Reply to #43  
sechel hayashar Says:

murder is a horrific sin. but i dont understand why, the moment gays and lesbians are targeted, everyone jumps on the liberal bandwagon to justify people who are an abomination to all that is holy. all of you who rushed to accept their "way of life" and "choice of orientation", need a serious reality check about your ideals and concept of right and wrong.

The "people who are an abomination" are people and as such don't need "justification:" they are people who have a right, among other things, to live life and not be shot down. They each don't need to justify his or her LIFE to you or anyone.
I'm not defending their "lifestyle" but, gay or not, they shouldn't have been murdered.

60

 Aug 02, 2009 at 04:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Some of the posts here are mind boggling. The fact of the matter is that many of the posters are in denial that there is no such phenomenon in their communities. How would you feel if your child was a faigeleh and someone came and killed him. Are these people not worthy of living in harmony with the world? If thats the case you can also make the argument that "Hitler justifiably killed Jews because they brought degeneracy" according to this interpretation of degeneracy. I find it interesting that you don't support the murdering of people such as Rabbi Kolko who engaged in pedophilia.... or the numerous hasidim that commit aveirot. So which aveirot can you "kill" for. Next time I see a frum person committing an aveira I should take out a machine gun and kill him?

61

 Aug 02, 2009 at 05:41 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #56  
Put It in Perspective Says:

We need to stop and think for a moment what is really going on which such "groups" and what it really all means, reading between the lines.

The vast majority of the world are strait, yet no "rabbi", calls himself the "heterosexual_rabbi", nor is there any such "club" called the "Frum_Heterosexual_club" or "minyan".

Why not?

Firs of all our sexual orientation is not something we stamp on our forehead or Advertise on our door-post, regardless of what it may be.

The people who do advertise their orientation do so Not for the reality of what it is, but because their only intent, of the advertisement, is only intended to make a statemnt (upon the face of all those who are disgusted by it) to justify their actual deed and actual behavior, in action.

Again all such "advertiser's" do so, not so that the world should "merely know" what type of yetzer HARA, they have, (and have Rachmones on their nebech Perversion form normality) but rather their one and only purpose is, to make a statement, to justify the actual deed and actual behavior (and not that they are saying that they are NOT acting on their Taavos, but rather their point is the exact opposite that it's Chas Vesholom "OK" to act on it).

Torah says that this behavior is plain and simple disgusting and that the Taaveh, is a Taaveh to actualy do something which is disgusting.

It is not a purely "theoretical Taaveh" rather it is a Taaveh that is to actually Do something disgusting, unlike people who are strait, where it has a perfectly Kosher outlet.

Under US Law, freedom of speech gives perverted people the "right" to let the world know how disgusting they are. This is their right to show the world who they are.

However the same freedom of speech also give the rest of the strait world the exact same perfect right to let all the preverts know, how we feel about perverted people who, as a rule, generaly all act on their perverted digsuting Taavos.

If the perverts want to claim "freedom of speech" for their publicity, they must likewise accept our freedom of speech to condemn their despicable behavior and their Taavah which is intended, (even as a Taavah alone) to actually do the deed which the Taavah is striving to achieve - a Taaveh for the actual disgusting Act.

Of course it goes without saying that there is no justification for harming anyone physically, no matter how perverted or disgusting they are.

Did you ever think that this "Rabbi" advertised this to start a club to support those living with these taivos in order to maintain their proper Torah life?

Why must you assume that the goal was some great "gay agenda".

Man.... you talk about people setting buildings on fire, running over parking lot attendants, handing out bribes or laundering money, everyone jumps up with "dan l'kaf zchus" But if the topic turns in this direction, right away "they deserved it" or "they are just deviants". Wrong. They are yidden.

None of us knows these people, or what their group was all about. From what I can tell it was a group to help orthodox yidden deal with their taivos without violating Torah. Where is the "dan l'kaf zchus" crowd now? They are yelling about gays marching in the streets.

There are 3 dead yidden here, and those who foster sinas chinam will continue to find reasons why it is "their fault". Why not just go throw rocks at them at set their building on fire too. That seems to be how we handle things these days.

This is shameful! shameful! shameful!

62

 Aug 02, 2009 at 05:37 PM Brad Says:

This was an outrageous act of murder.

63

 Aug 02, 2009 at 08:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #31  
Anonymous Says:

certainly noone can ever KNOW G-ds reason for doing anything, and certainly evrything comes from him. that being said. the number TWO bus didn't "blow up" it was BLOWN up by a terrorist intending to kill jews- which he did- all diff "types" of jews. And as is well known when a jew is killed because he is a jew that is considered dying 'al kiddush hashem'.
However when somone is in middle of doing a terrible sin or associating/promoting a sin and he is stopped in some way, than although it certainly doesnt excuse murder,yet and evil act was stopped, which is a good thing

"And as is well known when a jew is killed because he is a jew that is considered dying 'al kiddush hashem'.
However when somone is in middle of doing a terrible sin or associating/promoting a sin and he is stopped in some way, than although it certainly doesnt excuse murder,yet and evil act was stopped, which is a good thing”

Hopefully, the same "good things" will befall your family as well. The niftar from last night's terror attack also died "al kiddush hashem".

64

 Aug 02, 2009 at 07:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Nobody makes a "choice" to be gay, any more so than a person makes a "choice" to be autistic.
Nobody would expect an autistic person to act with the same mannerisms and social behavior as a psychologically healthy person; we make exceptions in order to accommodate their special needs.
God created man in his own image, and while you may not be able to make sense of the down syndrome child, or the autistic adult, or yes, even the gay or lesbian individual, they are all Gods children, to be afforded the same level of dignity and respect as any healthy person.
There is no mention in the Torah of there being something sinful with being gay, only engaging in homosexual behavior.
There is however, prominently displayed in the 10 commandments, the prohibition against murder, which seems to have been watered down over the years in order to justify senseless killing in the name of religion.

65

 Aug 02, 2009 at 11:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #54  
Anonymous Says:

The three kadoshim who were murdered last night for their beliefs, their lifestyle or for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time, are no different than any other innocent victims of terrorism, whether in Mumbai, a bus in Tel Aviv or a missile landing in Ashdod....all are the same. Hashem yarachem their families.

You are far from the Torah that's clear!Kedoshim?!a kadosh is not defined in the coffe shop but in torah law.

66

 Aug 03, 2009 at 02:43 AM me Says:

Reply to #38  
Dag Says:

Think this through, if people can justify murder at a gay meeting, what is to stop them from justifying murder at the parking lot in Jerusalem, or for murdering women who don’t go to the Mikva?

This was murder, 100% and there is NO justification

The purpose of such clubs is so that like minded people can meet. Just like the AAA 12 step program is useless and maintains the same 5% sucess rate that is also attained by people who did not attend the 12 step program, any real professional couseling is down one on one with people that get fined or lose their license for engaging sexual conduct with a client. This hang out where like minded people get to meet each other need not be further described. For those that assume the attacker was an Orthodox Jew, he was surely more orthodox than the Rabbi. One should also learn the beginning of choshen mishpat before making statement of what is and what is not halacha in this case. Keep in mind we put a man to death for smoking a cigarette on Shabbos or even consulting adults if one happens to be an unfaithful married woman. Torah does not change just because Obama is sitting in the Whitehouse or the medina is ru by liberal kofrim.

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 Aug 03, 2009 at 10:02 AM FAL Says:

What this all boils down to is that innocent people have been murdered and seriously hurt and we are learning that the only people that those who call themselves really frum orthodox Jews are ready to condemn anyone who isnt and extol those who are and commit crimes.

68

 Aug 03, 2009 at 03:50 PM Anonymous Says:

would we not all demand sympathy from the gay community if a gay shooter came and murdered chareidim. people wake up and show some sensitivity to another community.

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