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Jerusalem - Exclusive: Rav Shternbuch Shlita Denounces Hafgana Violence

Published on: September 3, 2009 09:02 AM
By: VIN News By Rabbi Yair Hoffman
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Rav Moshe Shternbuch Shlita,Jerusalem - This morning Rabbi Yair Hoffman from NY, who is on a tour in Israel sat down for VIN News in an exclusive private talk with Rav Moshe Shternbuch Shlita, the Vice President of the Eida Chareidis and the Chief of the Eida Chareidis Beis Din to discuss the Shabbos Hafganot. 

After the discussion the Rav allowed Rabbi Hoffman to be mefarsem the content.

YH:  Were the protests originally called by the Eida Chareidis and what was the reason:
RS: The mass protests was originally approved by both the Bais Din and the Rav of the Eida Chareidis.  Yerushalayim is the holiest city in the world and when there is such Chilul Shabbos we cannot be quiet about it.  We regarded it as an attack on our religion.  Especially, the invitation on the part of the mayor to come and park there next to the Kosel, the holiest place in the world in the holiest city in the world.

YH: But what about the violence?  Wasn’t the Eida Chareidis aware that violence would definitely develop?
RS:  The Eida Chareidis was always against the violence.  And it is not correct to assert that there is always violence.  It is true that there are always people in every circle that will engage in violence.  No responsible person is engaged in the violence. 

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YH: What about the arrests?
RS: The Eida Chareidis does not want anyone arrested.  Most of the time, also, the police arrest people that did not actually do anything, but the Eida Chareidis does not want the violence and it does not want the burning of the garbage cans.

YH: Are the people that engage in the violence to be considered pasul leAidus for a wedding?
RS: Of that there is no question.  These damaging acts cause them to be pasul leAidus until they pay restitution.  But the truth is that these types of people were in all probability pasul leAidus anyway before the hafganot..  If it was done with the Reshus of the Rabbonim then they would be patur, but here a mazik is chayav in damages and is pasul leAidus.

YH: What is the Eida Chareidis doing to ensure that the violence stop?
RS:  The Bais Din has issued a psak that no one should engage in the violence.  This week the police have even injured two people.  We hope that the violent people in the group will take this as a sign and cease the violence immediately.  All groups have people that they cannot control.  The left wing of Israeli society for example is constantly helping the enemy and there is nothing that the government can do about it.  Chareidi society also has its uncontrollable element that it cannot do anything about.

YH: But wouldn’t it have been better not to do anything in light of the massive Chilul Hashem that is happening throughout the world where the Torah community is being portrayed as a very violent group?
RS:  Chillul Shabbos was one of the reasons that caused the Churban Bais HaMikdash and some protest had to be made.  In the initial decision this was the thinking.  Personally, I felt that one very strong protest would have been enough.  However, others in the Eida Chareidis allowed a series of protests, and did not necessarily consider where it would go in the end in terms of what the violent elements would do.  The violent people are not responsible people and do not listen to us.  They are Baryonim and are not part of the Eida Chareidis community.  The original protest was necessary because we are obligated to protest such a strong attack on Shabbos and on the Torah.

YH:  Yoelish Krauss is often quoted by the secular media as the Katzin Mivtzaeem KMBZ of the Eida Chareidis.  IS he connected in any way to the Aida Chareidis in any way?
RS: He has absolutely no connection to the Eida Chareidis whatsoever. [This is contrary to today’s New York Times article  – Editor]

After the interview Rav Shternbuch requested that Rabbi Hoffman convey to American Rabbonim of the need to speak of the enormity of what Chillul Shabbos truly is.  Rabbi Hoffman described to VIN News Rav Shternbuch’s demeanor as deeply disturbed by both the Chilul Shabbos and the violence of the Biryonim. 

The author can be reached at yairhoffman2@gmail.com.



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Read Comments (90)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Sep 03, 2009 at 08:23 AM Tevye Says:

No one needs to say it, but to state the obvious: these are righteous men, and it is good to hear them speak concerning this topic.

May the events in Yerushalayim be brought to a swift and peaceful close.

2

 Sep 03, 2009 at 08:36 AM insider Says:

Yair Hoffman is fantastic. He does unbelievably great work. KEEP IT UP !!!!

3

 Sep 03, 2009 at 08:33 AM R Tuvia Says:

But the most impotant question::
How can a Godol not have the simple forsight, that any person or even child could have told you?, Yes, violance will definitely errupt.
It wasn't such a brainstorm.

4

 Sep 03, 2009 at 08:39 AM formally Says:

hopefully they listen

good that some godol are speaking up

5

 Sep 03, 2009 at 08:46 AM Anonymous Says:

Read the article in the NY Times, they are totally one-sided, they dont even mention the guy Klien that was run over by the Police was trying to stop a (possibly illegal) autopsy, sanctioned by the police.

Yes, there always fringes and outside casts that cost people their reputations for life -- but to us in diaspora are we doing something about the chillul shabbos? Are we angered enough by the change of the status-quo of 30 to 40 years, that if the secuars are successful in changing the status-quo on this thing, where will the next change in the status-quo be?

Do we understand the real, real hatred of some of the seculars and espescially certain parts of the mishtara to anything religious (and as we saw and was chronicled during the evacuation of Gush katif and Gaza) or jewish and want to uproot our identity totally from the jewish children? The videos of the police in Yerusholayim are heart-breaking to see the official police acting brazenly and seeing officers around them laughing?

6

 Sep 03, 2009 at 08:43 AM RJ Says:

How many Eida Charedia hooligans are reading VIN? If Rav Shternbuch really wants to stop the violence, shouldn't he be "mefarsem" his views to the perpetrators of the violnce?

7

 Sep 03, 2009 at 08:59 AM Gadolwannabe Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

Read the article in the NY Times, they are totally one-sided, they dont even mention the guy Klien that was run over by the Police was trying to stop a (possibly illegal) autopsy, sanctioned by the police.

Yes, there always fringes and outside casts that cost people their reputations for life -- but to us in diaspora are we doing something about the chillul shabbos? Are we angered enough by the change of the status-quo of 30 to 40 years, that if the secuars are successful in changing the status-quo on this thing, where will the next change in the status-quo be?

Do we understand the real, real hatred of some of the seculars and espescially certain parts of the mishtara to anything religious (and as we saw and was chronicled during the evacuation of Gush katif and Gaza) or jewish and want to uproot our identity totally from the jewish children? The videos of the police in Yerusholayim are heart-breaking to see the official police acting brazenly and seeing officers around them laughing?

Whether the Times article is 100% accurate is irrelevant. It is read by millions of people and the actions of the Chareidim are a Chillul Hashem. Their actions make every frum Jew embarrased to be associated with people who are no better than the Taliban who, also, claim that their frumkeit is only l'shem shamayim.

8

 Sep 03, 2009 at 08:48 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
R Tuvia Says:

But the most impotant question::
How can a Godol not have the simple forsight, that any person or even child could have told you?, Yes, violance will definitely errupt.
It wasn't such a brainstorm.

R' Shternbuch clearly said that he waned only 1 protest, and his kavana is that in that event there would not have been violence. The violence comes when the protests continue on and on...

9

 Sep 03, 2009 at 09:11 AM formally Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:

Read the article in the NY Times, they are totally one-sided, they dont even mention the guy Klien that was run over by the Police was trying to stop a (possibly illegal) autopsy, sanctioned by the police.

Yes, there always fringes and outside casts that cost people their reputations for life -- but to us in diaspora are we doing something about the chillul shabbos? Are we angered enough by the change of the status-quo of 30 to 40 years, that if the secuars are successful in changing the status-quo on this thing, where will the next change in the status-quo be?

Do we understand the real, real hatred of some of the seculars and espescially certain parts of the mishtara to anything religious (and as we saw and was chronicled during the evacuation of Gush katif and Gaza) or jewish and want to uproot our identity totally from the jewish children? The videos of the police in Yerusholayim are heart-breaking to see the official police acting brazenly and seeing officers around them laughing?

how many times are you going to spread the fantasy of run over by police he was run over over by a cab here is the video.

You can clearly see it was a cab

http://english.ntdtv.com/ntdtv_en/ns_me/2009-09-01/009359505859.html

10

 Sep 03, 2009 at 09:10 AM Anonymous Says:

rav shterbuch condemmed the violence the second week of the protests.

11

 Sep 03, 2009 at 08:39 AM Read carefully Says:

plenty of veiled and no-so-veiled incitement in these statements. Sorry, doesn't cut it as a denouncement.

12

 Sep 03, 2009 at 08:37 AM michali Says:

"Chillul Shabbos was one of the reasons that caused the Churban Bais HaMikdash and some protest had to be made. In the initial decision this was the thinking."

Can someone tell me where in the Torah does it say that Chillul Shabbos was one of the reasons that caused the Churban. Hashem destroyed the second bais hamikdash because of sinas chinam.

13

 Sep 03, 2009 at 09:35 AM Yanky Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

R' Shternbuch clearly said that he waned only 1 protest, and his kavana is that in that event there would not have been violence. The violence comes when the protests continue on and on...

But where was his Foresight?
Where is their "Roeh es Hanolod"?
Why could, they, not predict the extension of violance, just like everybody predicted it?

14

 Sep 03, 2009 at 09:44 AM Daniel Eidensohn Says:

Reply to #12  
michali Says:

"Chillul Shabbos was one of the reasons that caused the Churban Bais HaMikdash and some protest had to be made. In the initial decision this was the thinking."

Can someone tell me where in the Torah does it say that Chillul Shabbos was one of the reasons that caused the Churban. Hashem destroyed the second bais hamikdash because of sinas chinam.

מדרש תנאים לדברים פרק ה

קשה היא חילול שבת שלא חרבה ירושלים עד שהעלימו עיניהם מן השבת שנ' (יחז' כ"ב כ"ו) ומשבתתי העלימו עיניהם:

15

 Sep 03, 2009 at 09:40 AM Shalom Says:

Over 60 years ago the Rabbis prohibited Jews from participating in the protest against the Secular Zionist.

“The Secular Zionists who have no Torah are chashud al shfichas damim (apt to kill),” the Rabbis said. They knew these G-dless Zionists better than us. (Remember the 18 Jewish soldiers who were shot dead while swimming to shore from the burning and sinking Irgun ship, thanks to BenGurion and Yitzchak Rabin?)

How right the Rabbis were! This week, within 48 hours, 2 charedim were run over because of the Secular police. Friday evening, police officer Alon Weinstein told the Arab driver to move on pulling along with him the protester. And Sunday evening, 2 police cars drove over the same man one after the other.

Why don’t we hear about these atrocities in the media?

16

 Sep 03, 2009 at 09:50 AM Anonymous Says:

There are so many issues in EY to be protesting about, why doe the Rav feel that the parking lot issue takes priority over the pervasive fraud and dishonesty that is being reported almost daily among torah institutions and government agencies. Why are they not protesting the absence of employment opportunities for their yinglach, adequate health care resources in certain areas, While we might wish for a yerushalayim that is truly "ir hakodesh" and everyone is strictly shomer shabbos, that is not the reality and never will be. Why not focus on those violations of halacha that have the greatest impact on the greatest number of yidden rather than a some foreign tourists and secular Isrealis who want to drive on shabbos.

17

 Sep 03, 2009 at 09:50 AM The Last Word Says:

There is no doubt in most sane people's minds that Rav Shternbuch is an adam gadol whos actions and words are (nearly) beyond reproach. That being said, his followers seem unable to conduct themselves in a manner befitting a moral person let alone a Chareidi Jew. Time and time again "peaceful" demonstrations are called for by Daas Torah only to dissolve into mass riots which are consequently splashed across headlines around the world. My only gripe with Rav Shternbuch (and Daas Torah) at this point is the seeming unwillingness on their part to confront reality in Eretz Yisroel. No matter how important issues like chilul shabbos and the desecration of graves are, the collateral damage of these demonstrations far outweighs and negates any positiveness. Pictures of Chasidim throwing rocks, burning garbage bins and screaming at police only only helps people draw parallels to the Palestinians who also seem to feel that the only way to make themselves heard is to act in this manner.

18

 Sep 03, 2009 at 09:48 AM eida'nik Says:

Reply to #13  
Yanky Says:

But where was his Foresight?
Where is their "Roeh es Hanolod"?
Why could, they, not predict the extension of violance, just like everybody predicted it?

they thought you'd be smart enough to realize that the violence is from shababnikim and shuvu banim guys. obviously, they overestimated your intelligence...

19

 Sep 03, 2009 at 09:46 AM Shalom Says:

Reply to #9  
formally Says:

how many times are you going to spread the fantasy of run over by police he was run over over by a cab here is the video.

You can clearly see it was a cab

http://english.ntdtv.com/ntdtv_en/ns_me/2009-09-01/009359505859.html

How long are you going to hide your head in the sand and condone the atrocities done by the Israeli police? It was indeed a cab Friday night but on Sunday’s protest against the autopsy of the Jew who was murdered by an Arab, it was “2 police cars” one after the other on the same man. Before posting, it would be worth the effort for you to find out the true facts.

20

 Sep 03, 2009 at 10:09 AM Does someone out there know? Says:

Does someone out there know anything about this Yoelish Krauss? Does he really not have anything to do with the Eida Chareidis or is the NY Times correct (for a change)?

21

 Sep 03, 2009 at 10:05 AM one of the protesters Says:

Reply to #6  
RJ Says:

How many Eida Charedia hooligans are reading VIN? If Rav Shternbuch really wants to stop the violence, shouldn't he be "mefarsem" his views to the perpetrators of the violnce?

Actually he is. There has been letters all around yerushalayim for the past maybe 6 weeks condemming all violence. Know your facts before you open your mouth!

22

 Sep 03, 2009 at 10:20 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
Gadolwannabe Says:

Whether the Times article is 100% accurate is irrelevant. It is read by millions of people and the actions of the Chareidim are a Chillul Hashem. Their actions make every frum Jew embarrased to be associated with people who are no better than the Taliban who, also, claim that their frumkeit is only l'shem shamayim.

You forget the big difference. The Taliban is imposing their religion on others while the Chareidim are defending their own and what others are doing to them to compromise their lifestyle

23

 Sep 03, 2009 at 10:17 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
Gadolwannabe Says:

Whether the Times article is 100% accurate is irrelevant. It is read by millions of people and the actions of the Chareidim are a Chillul Hashem. Their actions make every frum Jew embarrased to be associated with people who are no better than the Taliban who, also, claim that their frumkeit is only l'shem shamayim.

1) Chillul Hashem is not defined by what the NYT writes but rather by doing the right thing at the right time Chillul Hashem has absolutes. If Kovod Shabbos needs to be defended so be it! Note that the reform movement was very concerned about "chillul Hashem" from the activities of American Orthodoxy in regard to various Haztzala activities.
2)Any of you remember the peaceful Tehillim rally called for by the Agudah in the wall street area a number of years ago? 20,000 people attended It was reported by all the papers in NYC except the NYT. A number of days later the NYT finally issued a photo..no article.... captioned "Jews venting their anger (or was it wrath)".. Thus, aside from my first point there is no reason to be impressed with the NYT as in their eyes Orthodox Jewry will (not "can"' as their reporting and omissions are obviously with malicious intent) do no right

24

 Sep 03, 2009 at 10:32 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

You forget the big difference. The Taliban is imposing their religion on others while the Chareidim are defending their own and what others are doing to them to compromise their lifestyle

I disagree. By demanding that women dress a certain way on public streets, that stores and business close on shabbat, that parking lots be closed on shabbat, by controlling who and how someone can marry and divorce is Israel, that women sit in the back of certain public buses, they are trying to impose their beliefs on others.

25

 Sep 03, 2009 at 10:31 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

R' Shternbuch clearly said that he waned only 1 protest, and his kavana is that in that event there would not have been violence. The violence comes when the protests continue on and on...

Rabbi Shternbuch Shlit'a is not the G"avad who calls and continues to call for the protests. I suggest looking at this from their oerspective and you may realize and understand their motivation

26

 Sep 03, 2009 at 10:29 AM Anonymous Says:

Now they speak up?! where were they till now? go back to sleep rabbis the damage is vastly done. Ashame it was left till now to voice against it. it's a little too late.

27

 Sep 03, 2009 at 10:28 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
michali Says:

"Chillul Shabbos was one of the reasons that caused the Churban Bais HaMikdash and some protest had to be made. In the initial decision this was the thinking."

Can someone tell me where in the Torah does it say that Chillul Shabbos was one of the reasons that caused the Churban. Hashem destroyed the second bais hamikdash because of sinas chinam.

Sinas Chinum was not the only cause of the churban. Far from it. Based on your reading The Churban was solely in revenge for Bar Kamtza's honor. There is homolitic reason why Chazal mention Sinas Chinum...By the way there was Shfichas Domim galore in Bayis Shainee too, probably a resuilt of sinas chinum or power... Get the point... I personally am not aware of the Rov's source. But I will tell you the Bayis Rishon, as Rashi in Chumash points out was, in part do to the lack of Shvisas Haaretz,... Shmitta.. which is another form of Shabbos. (See commentaries)

28

 Sep 03, 2009 at 10:54 AM formally Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

You forget the big difference. The Taliban is imposing their religion on others while the Chareidim are defending their own and what others are doing to them to compromise their lifestyle

no they are not

no one is asking them to drive a car

29

 Sep 03, 2009 at 10:52 AM formally Says:

Reply to #19  
Shalom Says:

How long are you going to hide your head in the sand and condone the atrocities done by the Israeli police? It was indeed a cab Friday night but on Sunday’s protest against the autopsy of the Jew who was murdered by an Arab, it was “2 police cars” one after the other on the same man. Before posting, it would be worth the effort for you to find out the true facts.

Did you look at the video it was a video of Sunday protest.

I am willing to bet you did not even look at the link read the article and look at the tape. DO IT and then post a reply

http://english.ntdtv.com/ntdtv_en/ns_me/2009-09-01/009359505859.html

I showed evidence of what really happened

now it is your turn evidence please.

I do not even hear the family of the person who was hit saying that.

30

 Sep 03, 2009 at 09:59 AM Action speaks louder than words Says:

Have pashkevilim gone up denouncing these "baryonim"? NO!
Have the Rabbonim gotten up in front of their people on Shabbos morning telling them that it is absolutely assur to take part in these demonstrations? NO!
Are there only a few who take part in these demonstrations! NO! (By any account there are hundreds involved)
Have groups of these "non-baryonim" come out to stop these "baryonim"? NO!

Talk is cheap and meaningless. As is too often the case, we one thing for public consumption, but te reality is quite different!

31

 Sep 03, 2009 at 09:57 AM Anonymous Says:

reply to # 9 For your information there were two instances where demonstrators were run over by cars. The one on shabbos was the taxi. On Monday there was another instance where the police were trying to pull out a body for an autopsy and a person was critically injured after being hit by a police vehicle.

32

 Sep 03, 2009 at 10:56 AM OMG Says:

Sorry yesterday I posted one small comment “to little to late” today I will add this, if this Rav thinks that with one interview with VIN will suffice he is wrong, don’t give a interview to a New York based news service, get up go out in the Street and during the protests confront these hooligans and tell them that you as part of leadership you do not want this behavior, it was easy for you to sign a announcement that people should come out to the protest and you yourself go home and eat Shabbath tish and get a good snooze and do whatever you always do and let people wrack havoc in your mane. Until you and your cohorts don’t go out in the street and confront the hooligans I will say “to little to late”

33

 Sep 03, 2009 at 11:25 AM Jerusalem Says:

Reply to #32  
OMG Says:

Sorry yesterday I posted one small comment “to little to late” today I will add this, if this Rav thinks that with one interview with VIN will suffice he is wrong, don’t give a interview to a New York based news service, get up go out in the Street and during the protests confront these hooligans and tell them that you as part of leadership you do not want this behavior, it was easy for you to sign a announcement that people should come out to the protest and you yourself go home and eat Shabbath tish and get a good snooze and do whatever you always do and let people wrack havoc in your mane. Until you and your cohorts don’t go out in the street and confront the hooligans I will say “to little to late”

to OMG,
if you would be living in Jeruslaem, you would know that this Rabbi has published such statmetns to the locla media on many occasions , not only to VIN, he recently gave an interview to mishpach here in Israel with the same message, he has also put up street posters with this message.

34

 Sep 03, 2009 at 11:21 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

There are so many issues in EY to be protesting about, why doe the Rav feel that the parking lot issue takes priority over the pervasive fraud and dishonesty that is being reported almost daily among torah institutions and government agencies. Why are they not protesting the absence of employment opportunities for their yinglach, adequate health care resources in certain areas, While we might wish for a yerushalayim that is truly "ir hakodesh" and everyone is strictly shomer shabbos, that is not the reality and never will be. Why not focus on those violations of halacha that have the greatest impact on the greatest number of yidden rather than a some foreign tourists and secular Isrealis who want to drive on shabbos.

Maybe after spending his life steeped in Torah, he has a better understanding of what is more important and less important, how some things should be dealt with vis-avis other things and what can have a greater detrimental effect.

35

 Sep 03, 2009 at 11:34 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #29  
formally Says:

Did you look at the video it was a video of Sunday protest.

I am willing to bet you did not even look at the link read the article and look at the tape. DO IT and then post a reply

http://english.ntdtv.com/ntdtv_en/ns_me/2009-09-01/009359505859.html

I showed evidence of what really happened

now it is your turn evidence please.

I do not even hear the family of the person who was hit saying that.

The video shows a taxi speeding through a heavy crowd and hitting someone. The driver deserved to be killed.

What is your point?

36

 Sep 03, 2009 at 11:28 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #32  
OMG Says:

Sorry yesterday I posted one small comment “to little to late” today I will add this, if this Rav thinks that with one interview with VIN will suffice he is wrong, don’t give a interview to a New York based news service, get up go out in the Street and during the protests confront these hooligans and tell them that you as part of leadership you do not want this behavior, it was easy for you to sign a announcement that people should come out to the protest and you yourself go home and eat Shabbath tish and get a good snooze and do whatever you always do and let people wrack havoc in your mane. Until you and your cohorts don’t go out in the street and confront the hooligans I will say “to little to late”

Your totally disrespectful attitude towards this Gadol baTorah indicates your distorted and invalid view of what is proper behavior in terms of chillul shabbos.

While this Rov is protesting on Shabbos and delaying his meal and you are either snoring or playing tennis, he has a much better view and approach and is fully aware of the danger of those unhinged individuals who do violence and the proper way to deal with them.

37

 Sep 03, 2009 at 11:25 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #30  
Action speaks louder than words Says:

Have pashkevilim gone up denouncing these "baryonim"? NO!
Have the Rabbonim gotten up in front of their people on Shabbos morning telling them that it is absolutely assur to take part in these demonstrations? NO!
Are there only a few who take part in these demonstrations! NO! (By any account there are hundreds involved)
Have groups of these "non-baryonim" come out to stop these "baryonim"? NO!

Talk is cheap and meaningless. As is too often the case, we one thing for public consumption, but te reality is quite different!

You asked good questions. to all, you responded "no". Obviously you do not know, because the answer to some, at least, is yes, which lends me to ask - why is it so important to you for the naswer to be "no." Do you hate them? Why?

38

 Sep 03, 2009 at 11:18 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #17  
The Last Word Says:

There is no doubt in most sane people's minds that Rav Shternbuch is an adam gadol whos actions and words are (nearly) beyond reproach. That being said, his followers seem unable to conduct themselves in a manner befitting a moral person let alone a Chareidi Jew. Time and time again "peaceful" demonstrations are called for by Daas Torah only to dissolve into mass riots which are consequently splashed across headlines around the world. My only gripe with Rav Shternbuch (and Daas Torah) at this point is the seeming unwillingness on their part to confront reality in Eretz Yisroel. No matter how important issues like chilul shabbos and the desecration of graves are, the collateral damage of these demonstrations far outweighs and negates any positiveness. Pictures of Chasidim throwing rocks, burning garbage bins and screaming at police only only helps people draw parallels to the Palestinians who also seem to feel that the only way to make themselves heard is to act in this manner.

if he's beyond reproach, why the reproach?

39

 Sep 03, 2009 at 11:17 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
Daniel Eidensohn Says:

מדרש תנאים לדברים פרק ה

קשה היא חילול שבת שלא חרבה ירושלים עד שהעלימו עיניהם מן השבת שנ' (יחז' כ"ב כ"ו) ומשבתתי העלימו עיניהם:

as well as the yalkut shimoni in beghaalosecha" im atem mishamrim neiros shel shabbos ani mareh lachem neiros shel tzion."

40

 Sep 03, 2009 at 11:15 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
Read carefully Says:

plenty of veiled and no-so-veiled incitement in these statements. Sorry, doesn't cut it as a denouncement.

You shoudl really try to figure out why you hate them so much. Here was a level-headed discussion of the topics. yet, you cannot agree that there was some positivity in it. You only see negativity. Charedim that act irresponsibly will not change from the comments of haters like you, only those who can see them in an unbiased light and praise their good and denounce their bad.

41

 Sep 03, 2009 at 11:12 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
Gadolwannabe Says:

Whether the Times article is 100% accurate is irrelevant. It is read by millions of people and the actions of the Chareidim are a Chillul Hashem. Their actions make every frum Jew embarrased to be associated with people who are no better than the Taliban who, also, claim that their frumkeit is only l'shem shamayim.

Your comments are worthwhile, but why the shrillness? "no better than the Taliban?" Do you really mean that? Do you think that George Bush should have sent in troops to ensure that the Charedim don't destroy the world? Say what you mean and stop there.

42

 Sep 03, 2009 at 11:11 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
Does someone out there know? Says:

Does someone out there know anything about this Yoelish Krauss? Does he really not have anything to do with the Eida Chareidis or is the NY Times correct (for a change)?

“Does someone out there know anything about this Yoelish Krauss? Does he really not have anything to do with the Eida Chareidis or is the NY Times correct (for a change)?”

At the risk of calling Rav Shternbuch "uninformed" of what his own followers are doing, its not just the NY Times that calls this guy Krauss the spokesman or leader of the Eida's protests. He is referred to in that role by most of the media in EY as well, such as the following excerpt from a June 12, 2009 article by Avram Selig in the Jeruselam Post, entitled, "The Thug Behind Haredi Riots". I believe this article was also posted on VIN but I cannot locate the exact citation.


".....While [Krasuss] shies from the title, the slender, 36-year-old father of 11 is indeed the man behind the men - the coordinator of the Eda's meticulously coordinated protests and behind-the-scenes deal-brokering that brings leading rabbis into its fold on various issues. He can set the haredi street on fire, often literally, with a telephone call or even a word.

"It's a network," he says of the young men who willingly take to the street in protest. "Once the word goes out, it filters through the community quite efficiently."

In reality, the job is more complex than that, and Kraus, himself born and raised in Mea She'arim, serves as a facilitator - someone who knows who's who within the community, and makes the appropriate connections between them when something needs to get done.

"Let's say we want to stage a protest," Kraus says. "I contact people and get the word out, while the pashkivlim [wall posters used for announcements] also play an important role."

43

 Sep 03, 2009 at 11:08 AM formally Says:

Reply to #31  
Anonymous Says:

reply to # 9 For your information there were two instances where demonstrators were run over by cars. The one on shabbos was the taxi. On Monday there was another instance where the police were trying to pull out a body for an autopsy and a person was critically injured after being hit by a police vehicle.

the video is of that demonstration about the autopsy, how do I know because they used stun grenades that day and not the other day

did you look at it?

http://english.ntdtv.com/ntdtv_en/ns_me/2009-09-01/009359505859.html

44

 Sep 03, 2009 at 12:18 PM Anonymous Says:

"However, others in the Eida Chareidis allowed a series of protests, and did not necessarily consider where it would go in the end in terms of what the violent elements would do."

Chas Vesholom! The gedolim of the Eida certainly considered that and knew with their ruach hakodesh what would happen. Only hashem wanted it to happen anyway.

45

 Sep 03, 2009 at 12:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

You forget the big difference. The Taliban is imposing their religion on others while the Chareidim are defending their own and what others are doing to them to compromise their lifestyle

Secular people driving on Shabbos does not compromise their lifestyle. Beating up women that want to sit in the front of a bus or who are dressed tzniusly but not to a particular person's standards is imposing your beliefs on others.

46

 Sep 03, 2009 at 12:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

Your totally disrespectful attitude towards this Gadol baTorah indicates your distorted and invalid view of what is proper behavior in terms of chillul shabbos.

While this Rov is protesting on Shabbos and delaying his meal and you are either snoring or playing tennis, he has a much better view and approach and is fully aware of the danger of those unhinged individuals who do violence and the proper way to deal with them.

"While this Rov is protesting on Shabbos and delaying his meal and you are either snoring or playing tennis"

Azoy...this Rav is really moser nefesh by "delaying his meal" while out protesting at the parking lot (albeit peacefully). So he is mamash a martyr since he will have to return home to cold chulent. I'm not convinced you fully understand that these few "unhinged" individuals as you call them have the potential to spark a major confrontation and real tragedy with loss of life. Given their awareness they cannot control this fringe element of the Eidah contingent, they should not be holding any demonstrations. I agree entirely with Posting no. 36.

47

 Sep 03, 2009 at 12:12 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #36  
Anonymous Says:

Your totally disrespectful attitude towards this Gadol baTorah indicates your distorted and invalid view of what is proper behavior in terms of chillul shabbos.

While this Rov is protesting on Shabbos and delaying his meal and you are either snoring or playing tennis, he has a much better view and approach and is fully aware of the danger of those unhinged individuals who do violence and the proper way to deal with them.

This Rav has not participate in the protest he just give his name and support to the protesters while he is home hooligans yes in his name bring damage on innocent people and police officers

48

 Sep 03, 2009 at 12:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

There are so many issues in EY to be protesting about, why doe the Rav feel that the parking lot issue takes priority over the pervasive fraud and dishonesty that is being reported almost daily among torah institutions and government agencies. Why are they not protesting the absence of employment opportunities for their yinglach, adequate health care resources in certain areas, While we might wish for a yerushalayim that is truly "ir hakodesh" and everyone is strictly shomer shabbos, that is not the reality and never will be. Why not focus on those violations of halacha that have the greatest impact on the greatest number of yidden rather than a some foreign tourists and secular Isrealis who want to drive on shabbos.

By the way you forget a secular Israeli is jewish too

49

 Sep 03, 2009 at 12:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #30  
Action speaks louder than words Says:

Have pashkevilim gone up denouncing these "baryonim"? NO!
Have the Rabbonim gotten up in front of their people on Shabbos morning telling them that it is absolutely assur to take part in these demonstrations? NO!
Are there only a few who take part in these demonstrations! NO! (By any account there are hundreds involved)
Have groups of these "non-baryonim" come out to stop these "baryonim"? NO!

Talk is cheap and meaningless. As is too often the case, we one thing for public consumption, but te reality is quite different!

I fear the rabbi left you with a misunderstanding. The Eida does want the mass demonstrations. Just not Baryonim. You have a suggestion how to stop those that don't listen? Patchkevillen? You have a sense of humor

50

 Sep 03, 2009 at 12:31 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #33  
Jerusalem Says:

to OMG,
if you would be living in Jeruslaem, you would know that this Rabbi has published such statmetns to the locla media on many occasions , not only to VIN, he recently gave an interview to mishpach here in Israel with the same message, he has also put up street posters with this message.

Not good enough!!! he and the others in the leadership need to go out during the protest and confront any person who yells obscenities at the police, driver or even pedestrians and help turn in any person who cause physical damage in particular if these trouble makers are really shababnikim as some of you claim, them I will change my tone to “better late then never” but not before.

51

 Sep 03, 2009 at 12:07 PM Anonymous Says:


I'M ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO DEPLORE THIS VIOLENCE which has been taking place on the part of the frum element, but at the same time i can't help but point out the vicious sadistic agenda and hypocrisy in the NYT.

Let the NEW YORK TIMES (Yemach Shmom) not fool you in the least bit. Those dogs at the SLIMES will portray the Israeli Police and IDF as MUCH WORSE than NAZIS on a 100% Basis. Right now though it plays into their cruel agenda to portray the HAREIDIM (which they even hate more than the Secular Israelis, if you can actually believe that), as being even worse than the seculars (if that's even possible according to them).

If the SLIMES is so worried about the Israelis, let them for ONCE in their miserable lifetime show some sympathy towards them when it comes to Israeli/Arab conflict. That will NEVER happen though since, like I said earlier they HATE them as well, they’re only using them as pawns right now to make the Chareidim look even worse.


NOTE: I don’t hate the Israeli’s, IDF, or the Chareidim, I’m just pointing out THEIR hypocrisy.

52

 Sep 03, 2009 at 12:06 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
Anonymous Says:

I disagree. By demanding that women dress a certain way on public streets, that stores and business close on shabbat, that parking lots be closed on shabbat, by controlling who and how someone can marry and divorce is Israel, that women sit in the back of certain public buses, they are trying to impose their beliefs on others.

Stores and businesses closing on Shabbat is the law of the land which is being ignored. Even Ben Gurion recognized the sanctity of Shabbat is important in order to maintain a Jewish state.
Women who are walking in their neighborhoods not properly clothed is offensive to the residents. Their issue is not her morals. Its in protection their own religious morals mandated by the Torah. They don't tell women what to wear in Tel Aviv. (Although as Jews the Torah really does obligate us to each others Torah adherence). I'm sure you understand certain decorum is required by sanctity of a place even without people, for example any synogogue or church. Even the most indecent women recognize that their mode of dress is not neccesarily of the highest propriety. I'm surprised that people are so inconsiderate of others sensibilities.
As far as the buses are concerned, they are an accommodation. There are other buses too. These buses were requested by both the men and the women of the chareidi community. Those women who felt offended were generally women who intentionally take these buses...in other words trouble mongers

53

 Sep 03, 2009 at 11:50 AM Yoel Kraus is no Eida Says:

Reply to #20  
Does someone out there know? Says:

Does someone out there know anything about this Yoelish Krauss? Does he really not have anything to do with the Eida Chareidis or is the NY Times correct (for a change)?

Yes, Yoel Kraus has nothing to do with the Eida. He likes to make noise, so he claims to reporters he is the Eida spokesman. Since he says things that would make the Eida look silly, the media happily accepts him as a spokesman, without ever looking into the fact he has zero connection to the Eida.

54

 Sep 03, 2009 at 11:55 AM formally Says:

Reply to #35  
Anonymous Says:

The video shows a taxi speeding through a heavy crowd and hitting someone. The driver deserved to be killed.

What is your point?

IT was not the police as many people are saying

55

 Sep 03, 2009 at 12:49 PM MDshweks Says:

Reply to #7  
Gadolwannabe Says:

Whether the Times article is 100% accurate is irrelevant. It is read by millions of people and the actions of the Chareidim are a Chillul Hashem. Their actions make every frum Jew embarrased to be associated with people who are no better than the Taliban who, also, claim that their frumkeit is only l'shem shamayim.

Look, the NY Times IS definately gonna speak out against the real Moshiach when he comes, hopefuly very soon, in the same maner. The sin of the Taliban is not their rejection of democracy, it's the fact they impose a FALS BASELESS religion, and with using their guns too.

56

 Sep 03, 2009 at 01:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

"While this Rov is protesting on Shabbos and delaying his meal and you are either snoring or playing tennis"

Azoy...this Rav is really moser nefesh by "delaying his meal" while out protesting at the parking lot (albeit peacefully). So he is mamash a martyr since he will have to return home to cold chulent. I'm not convinced you fully understand that these few "unhinged" individuals as you call them have the potential to spark a major confrontation and real tragedy with loss of life. Given their awareness they cannot control this fringe element of the Eidah contingent, they should not be holding any demonstrations. I agree entirely with Posting no. 36.

I am gratified that you agree with me that Rabbi Sternbuch knows better than the other hysterical posters what is reasonable and what constitutes chilul Hashem. Daas baal habayis hepoch daas torah.

57

 Sep 03, 2009 at 01:26 PM anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
Shalom Says:

Over 60 years ago the Rabbis prohibited Jews from participating in the protest against the Secular Zionist.

“The Secular Zionists who have no Torah are chashud al shfichas damim (apt to kill),” the Rabbis said. They knew these G-dless Zionists better than us. (Remember the 18 Jewish soldiers who were shot dead while swimming to shore from the burning and sinking Irgun ship, thanks to BenGurion and Yitzchak Rabin?)

How right the Rabbis were! This week, within 48 hours, 2 charedim were run over because of the Secular police. Friday evening, police officer Alon Weinstein told the Arab driver to move on pulling along with him the protester. And Sunday evening, 2 police cars drove over the same man one after the other.

Why don’t we hear about these atrocities in the media?

This nonsense you are saying does not conform to history . In 1939 from Vienna some Jewish were able to save themselve in Palestine and my little cousins had to inhale Zyklon B and were burned in a creamtorium.

58

 Sep 03, 2009 at 01:21 PM torahyid Says:

Reply to #42  
Anonymous Says:

“Does someone out there know anything about this Yoelish Krauss? Does he really not have anything to do with the Eida Chareidis or is the NY Times correct (for a change)?”

At the risk of calling Rav Shternbuch "uninformed" of what his own followers are doing, its not just the NY Times that calls this guy Krauss the spokesman or leader of the Eida's protests. He is referred to in that role by most of the media in EY as well, such as the following excerpt from a June 12, 2009 article by Avram Selig in the Jeruselam Post, entitled, "The Thug Behind Haredi Riots". I believe this article was also posted on VIN but I cannot locate the exact citation.


".....While [Krasuss] shies from the title, the slender, 36-year-old father of 11 is indeed the man behind the men - the coordinator of the Eda's meticulously coordinated protests and behind-the-scenes deal-brokering that brings leading rabbis into its fold on various issues. He can set the haredi street on fire, often literally, with a telephone call or even a word.

"It's a network," he says of the young men who willingly take to the street in protest. "Once the word goes out, it filters through the community quite efficiently."

In reality, the job is more complex than that, and Kraus, himself born and raised in Mea She'arim, serves as a facilitator - someone who knows who's who within the community, and makes the appropriate connections between them when something needs to get done.

"Let's say we want to stage a protest," Kraus says. "I contact people and get the word out, while the pashkivlim [wall posters used for announcements] also play an important role."

to them all yerushalmis are eida chareidis, he has nothing offically to do with the eida

59

 Sep 03, 2009 at 01:21 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #55  
MDshweks Says:

Look, the NY Times IS definately gonna speak out against the real Moshiach when he comes, hopefuly very soon, in the same maner. The sin of the Taliban is not their rejection of democracy, it's the fact they impose a FALS BASELESS religion, and with using their guns too.

But use your brains what Hashem give you, the Taliban’s claim exactly what you’re, and the same goes for the Spanish inquisition

60

 Sep 03, 2009 at 01:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #54  
formally Says:

IT was not the police as many people are saying

Pay attention. People have been trying to tell you that there were 2 crashes. One was the taxi. There was another crash of a police vehicle into a tzaddik trying to prevent an autopsy on another day.

Your video proves nothing.

61

 Sep 03, 2009 at 01:12 PM torahyid Says:

Reply to #12  
michali Says:

"Chillul Shabbos was one of the reasons that caused the Churban Bais HaMikdash and some protest had to be made. In the initial decision this was the thinking."

Can someone tell me where in the Torah does it say that Chillul Shabbos was one of the reasons that caused the Churban. Hashem destroyed the second bais hamikdash because of sinas chinam.

shabbos 119b
לא חרבה ירושלים אלא בשביל שחיללו בה את השבת

62

 Sep 03, 2009 at 01:20 PM michali Says:

Reply to #27  
Anonymous Says:

Sinas Chinum was not the only cause of the churban. Far from it. Based on your reading The Churban was solely in revenge for Bar Kamtza's honor. There is homolitic reason why Chazal mention Sinas Chinum...By the way there was Shfichas Domim galore in Bayis Shainee too, probably a resuilt of sinas chinum or power... Get the point... I personally am not aware of the Rov's source. But I will tell you the Bayis Rishon, as Rashi in Chumash points out was, in part do to the lack of Shvisas Haaretz,... Shmitta.. which is another form of Shabbos. (See commentaries)

Sorry. I have not seen anywhere that chillul Shabbos was a cause of the churban. However, I did find a very good article on the destruction of 2nd bais hamikdash that I feel applies very much to what is happening today among the Chareidim. Here is an excerpt:

"The sin of sinas chinam is unfortunately all too common among those who are actively involved in Divine service: each individual regards himself as an autonomous entity, placing complete faith in his own judgment and desire, without allowing any leeway at all for the judgment of another. Such an individual insists on his own interpretations in the study of Torah, and on his personal perceptions of Divine service. Thus those involved in Divine service do not coalesce and unite at all.

Truly, it is of fundamental importance that those who are involved in the study of Torah and in Divine service should bond together and speak with one another. For then, not only will each help rouse the other to establish set times for Torah study and conceive new ideas as to how to increase the number of participants in Torah classes, but it is also beneficial for their own study of Torah [and Divine service] as well."
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/83701/jewish/Chapter-VI.htm

63

 Sep 03, 2009 at 02:01 PM Kol Haposel Bemumo Posel Says:

Anyone who says that "they" (protesters) are Posul L'Eidus, is most likely, Pasul L'Eidus, himslef.

Why?

Ibois Eima Kra - V'ibais Eima Svara:

Kra - Chazal Say:

1) The Klal, Chazal say, is: "Kol Haposel Bemumo Posel" so if a Misnaged is trying to Pasle Chassidim, Chazal say it's because he is beMUMO (in his own mum) he is posel, someone else.


Svara:

2) If his reasoning for making anyone Posul L'eidus is because that "someone" (the protester) had made a Chilul Hashem, then this SAME SVARA applies to himslef too, because by the fact that this Misnaged goes public to the "news media", to condemn chassidim, (protesters), he is HIMSELF also causing an even worse Chilul Hashem, in the press, and so it follows logically that his own psak din, to pasel "them", also pasles himslef, because he too is now causing a Chilul Hashem.

64

 Sep 03, 2009 at 02:06 PM torahyid Says:

Reply to #59  
OMG Says:

But use your brains what Hashem give you, the Taliban’s claim exactly what you’re, and the same goes for the Spanish inquisition

but they are wrong and we're right, or are you reform that all beliefs are legitimate c"v

65

 Sep 03, 2009 at 02:03 PM Anonymous Says:

somehow one does not see in those that criticize the Eida a genuine concern for Shabbos. perhaps if they did they would evaluate things differently.

66

 Sep 03, 2009 at 01:58 PM know Says:

Reply to #62  
michali Says:

Sorry. I have not seen anywhere that chillul Shabbos was a cause of the churban. However, I did find a very good article on the destruction of 2nd bais hamikdash that I feel applies very much to what is happening today among the Chareidim. Here is an excerpt:

"The sin of sinas chinam is unfortunately all too common among those who are actively involved in Divine service: each individual regards himself as an autonomous entity, placing complete faith in his own judgment and desire, without allowing any leeway at all for the judgment of another. Such an individual insists on his own interpretations in the study of Torah, and on his personal perceptions of Divine service. Thus those involved in Divine service do not coalesce and unite at all.

Truly, it is of fundamental importance that those who are involved in the study of Torah and in Divine service should bond together and speak with one another. For then, not only will each help rouse the other to establish set times for Torah study and conceive new ideas as to how to increase the number of participants in Torah classes, but it is also beneficial for their own study of Torah [and Divine service] as well."
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/83701/jewish/Chapter-VI.htm

read the comment 61 bofre showing your amarzus

67

 Sep 03, 2009 at 01:57 PM know Says:

Reply to #30  
Action speaks louder than words Says:

Have pashkevilim gone up denouncing these "baryonim"? NO!
Have the Rabbonim gotten up in front of their people on Shabbos morning telling them that it is absolutely assur to take part in these demonstrations? NO!
Are there only a few who take part in these demonstrations! NO! (By any account there are hundreds involved)
Have groups of these "non-baryonim" come out to stop these "baryonim"? NO!

Talk is cheap and meaningless. As is too often the case, we one thing for public consumption, but te reality is quite different!

For your information, the noices on the street from the eidh charedis say clearly only married people should go to the demonstrations, these guys are not usually the wild ones, the eidah have people supervising that there are no unmarried people by the hafganot

68

 Sep 03, 2009 at 02:10 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #15  
Shalom Says:

Over 60 years ago the Rabbis prohibited Jews from participating in the protest against the Secular Zionist.

“The Secular Zionists who have no Torah are chashud al shfichas damim (apt to kill),” the Rabbis said. They knew these G-dless Zionists better than us. (Remember the 18 Jewish soldiers who were shot dead while swimming to shore from the burning and sinking Irgun ship, thanks to BenGurion and Yitzchak Rabin?)

How right the Rabbis were! This week, within 48 hours, 2 charedim were run over because of the Secular police. Friday evening, police officer Alon Weinstein told the Arab driver to move on pulling along with him the protester. And Sunday evening, 2 police cars drove over the same man one after the other.

Why don’t we hear about these atrocities in the media?

My first reply to I delete after I finished writing it and waited for a few hours to suppress my anger down, just to be more collegial were we both could share views and discus it in a respectful way, but the more I think about I need to call you out on facts first your outcry for the 18 solders from the Irgun is noting more them Crocodile tears from you and your kind, you are full of venom against anybody with the Zionistic view, and furthermore, if you cry for the 18 solders were are your tears when in the 1930’s numerous Chasidic Rabbis forbid their Chassidim to go to Palestine or the US, you need to look into your hearth and understand that we all, that’s everybody made mistake before and during World War II every Jewish “group” collectively could have done something to help others to survive, but failed miserably, but that doesn’t belie that we are all Jewish and we have tens of millions of Arabs who would want noting more then either to convert us to their religion, or push us into the sea, believe you me that it always could happen again history has a way to repeat itself.

69

 Sep 03, 2009 at 02:25 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #64  
torahyid Says:

but they are wrong and we're right, or are you reform that all beliefs are legitimate c"v

Don’t you C’V mix me into this, I am just pointing out that they say exactly what you just said, why use an argument that could be used against any Jew to, you need to come up with something different

70

 Sep 03, 2009 at 02:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #56  
Anonymous Says:

I am gratified that you agree with me that Rabbi Sternbuch knows better than the other hysterical posters what is reasonable and what constitutes chilul Hashem. Daas baal habayis hepoch daas torah.

Sorry buddy but Rabbi Shternbuch is up against the rest of the eida also. Actually I'm surprised he was talking so much as if he were speaking on their behalf

71

 Sep 03, 2009 at 02:20 PM formally Says:

Reply to #64  
torahyid Says:

but they are wrong and we're right, or are you reform that all beliefs are legitimate c"v

funny that is what they say about you

72

 Sep 03, 2009 at 02:18 PM scales mate Says:

It is true that Shabbos is the secret to success especially in regard to Jerusalem and its holy surrounds. Although, the questions begs to be asked why the chareidi public did not voice their collective and unified voice in choosing a chareidi mayor. If the chareidim would understand that there is more that unites them than divides them they wouldn't see this terrible dilemma they presently find themselves in. The reflection is on themselves why today there is chillul Shabbos in Jerusalem. It's not this Mayor or his cohorts whom really are clueless as to the blessing Shabbos gives. By rallying for God's holy Shabbos is pure sanctimony on these Chareidims' part. Rather let them reflect a little instead and see how they can mend their divided communities. I hope soon with heralding of Eliyahu Hanavi, Moshiach Ztidkeinu will free us all from the shackles of Galus.

73

 Sep 03, 2009 at 02:51 PM torahyid Says:

Reply to #71  
formally Says:

funny that is what they say about you

so what, it doesn't change the fact. and besides they both agree to us, they just claim without proof that G-d subsequently told one man in secret that from now on is a new religion.

74

 Sep 03, 2009 at 02:45 PM torahyid Says:

Reply to #68  
OMG Says:

My first reply to I delete after I finished writing it and waited for a few hours to suppress my anger down, just to be more collegial were we both could share views and discus it in a respectful way, but the more I think about I need to call you out on facts first your outcry for the 18 solders from the Irgun is noting more them Crocodile tears from you and your kind, you are full of venom against anybody with the Zionistic view, and furthermore, if you cry for the 18 solders were are your tears when in the 1930’s numerous Chasidic Rabbis forbid their Chassidim to go to Palestine or the US, you need to look into your hearth and understand that we all, that’s everybody made mistake before and during World War II every Jewish “group” collectively could have done something to help others to survive, but failed miserably, but that doesn’t belie that we are all Jewish and we have tens of millions of Arabs who would want noting more then either to convert us to their religion, or push us into the sea, believe you me that it always could happen again history has a way to repeat itself.

did that poster say he cried for them, he just proved that the tziyonim are chosud on shfichas domim. what's that got to do with chassidic rebbes who although may have made a mistake thought only for the best for their fellow jews. but logic doesn't matter as long as you can have a good bash

75

 Sep 03, 2009 at 04:19 PM formally Says:

Reply to #60  
Anonymous Says:

Pay attention. People have been trying to tell you that there were 2 crashes. One was the taxi. There was another crash of a police vehicle into a tzaddik trying to prevent an autopsy on another day.

Your video proves nothing.

Prove it until you bring some sort of prove a statement from a family member someone

you are just repeating a bubba masa unless you can prove it

76

 Sep 03, 2009 at 04:20 PM formally Says:

Reply to #73  
torahyid Says:

so what, it doesn't change the fact. and besides they both agree to us, they just claim without proof that G-d subsequently told one man in secret that from now on is a new religion.

they have the same proof as you.

faith

78

 Sep 03, 2009 at 04:02 PM Daniel Eidensohn Says:

Reply to #62  
michali Says:

Sorry. I have not seen anywhere that chillul Shabbos was a cause of the churban. However, I did find a very good article on the destruction of 2nd bais hamikdash that I feel applies very much to what is happening today among the Chareidim. Here is an excerpt:

"The sin of sinas chinam is unfortunately all too common among those who are actively involved in Divine service: each individual regards himself as an autonomous entity, placing complete faith in his own judgment and desire, without allowing any leeway at all for the judgment of another. Such an individual insists on his own interpretations in the study of Torah, and on his personal perceptions of Divine service. Thus those involved in Divine service do not coalesce and unite at all.

Truly, it is of fundamental importance that those who are involved in the study of Torah and in Divine service should bond together and speak with one another. For then, not only will each help rouse the other to establish set times for Torah study and conceive new ideas as to how to increase the number of participants in Torah classes, but it is also beneficial for their own study of Torah [and Divine service] as well."
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/83701/jewish/Chapter-VI.htm

I gather you don't read Hebrew. You have received several direct statements
such as the Babylonian Talmud Shabbos 119b "Abaye said: Jerusalem was destroyed only because the Sabbath was desecrated therein, as it is said,(Ezekiel 22:26):And they have hid their eyes from My sabbaths, therefore I am profaned among them." I also quoted a medrash based on this verse makes the same assertion. Similar a second medrash [comment #39] was cited which repeats this idea.

79

 Sep 03, 2009 at 04:58 PM what Says:

Reply to #16  
Anonymous Says:

There are so many issues in EY to be protesting about, why doe the Rav feel that the parking lot issue takes priority over the pervasive fraud and dishonesty that is being reported almost daily among torah institutions and government agencies. Why are they not protesting the absence of employment opportunities for their yinglach, adequate health care resources in certain areas, While we might wish for a yerushalayim that is truly "ir hakodesh" and everyone is strictly shomer shabbos, that is not the reality and never will be. Why not focus on those violations of halacha that have the greatest impact on the greatest number of yidden rather than a some foreign tourists and secular Isrealis who want to drive on shabbos.

While we might wish for a yerushalayim that is truly "ir hakodesh" and everyone is strictly shomer shabbos, that is not the reality and "never will be".

If you actually believe that it never will be, then there is no point to Israel, or better said Eretz Yisroel as a place for Jews. Woe is to us and to this land then. There is NO POINT in living there, supporting them there, fighting and getting killed. ALL FOR NOTHING!!!!! May your beliefs one day slap you in the face, when Moshiach comes and you and all will see EVERY JEW even the coldest nonreligious person keep Shabbos to the fullest.

80

 Sep 03, 2009 at 06:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Thank you vinnews this was excellent. You continue to bring us crucial information.

81

 Sep 03, 2009 at 06:10 PM Dr. Zacharowicz Says:

Our community owes a debt of gratitude to Rabbi Yair Hoffman for interviewing the Gaon Rav Moshe Sternbuch shlita. I recently had the opportunity to learn Torah directly from this gadol, as part of a yarchei kallah on medical halacha (www.j-c-r.org). Rav Sternbuch is a walking sefer Torah and his Torah-filled mind is as sharp as ever. We are fortunate to have such leaders guiding us.

82

 Sep 03, 2009 at 09:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #79  
what Says:

While we might wish for a yerushalayim that is truly "ir hakodesh" and everyone is strictly shomer shabbos, that is not the reality and "never will be".

If you actually believe that it never will be, then there is no point to Israel, or better said Eretz Yisroel as a place for Jews. Woe is to us and to this land then. There is NO POINT in living there, supporting them there, fighting and getting killed. ALL FOR NOTHING!!!!! May your beliefs one day slap you in the face, when Moshiach comes and you and all will see EVERY JEW even the coldest nonreligious person keep Shabbos to the fullest.

The Yerushalayim of 100% shomr shabbos never existed. Menashe filled the Bais Hamikdash with idols. Shoftim is all about rescuing Israel after being punished for worshipping idols. Ezra came back to a Yerushalayim of mixed marraiges. The Second Bais Hamihdash was a city of Hellenists and Tzadukkim. Come back from Fantasy Land

83

 Sep 03, 2009 at 09:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #76  
formally Says:

they have the same proof as you.

faith

Your comment is so off target,i was amused and saddened at the same time.Amused,because your answer shown no depth of understanding.Saddened that you are so full of apathy to your torah.

84

 Sep 03, 2009 at 10:01 PM formally Says:

Reply to #83  
Anonymous Says:

Your comment is so off target,i was amused and saddened at the same time.Amused,because your answer shown no depth of understanding.Saddened that you are so full of apathy to your torah.

simply not true

proof is some tangible evidence, that can proven scientifically. If not then it is faith.

I can be very frum and know tthat there is no proof. and believe because of my faith

If there tangible proof enlighten me and the rest of us?

Why is it called emuna because there is not proof

I do not have emuna that a computer is in front of me. But one has emuna in Hashem.

that is a big diffrence

85

 Sep 03, 2009 at 10:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #84  
formally Says:

simply not true

proof is some tangible evidence, that can proven scientifically. If not then it is faith.

I can be very frum and know tthat there is no proof. and believe because of my faith

If there tangible proof enlighten me and the rest of us?

Why is it called emuna because there is not proof

I do not have emuna that a computer is in front of me. But one has emuna in Hashem.

that is a big diffrence

Sorry you are wrong, science is the last thing that proves anything.Should i start listing all the science proven beyond the shadow of a doubt,all completly debunked by their today's scientist's?

86

 Sep 03, 2009 at 10:47 PM The Last Word Says:

Reply to #38  
Anonymous Says:

if he's beyond reproach, why the reproach?

Far be it from me to criticize Rav Shternbuch. I was merely making a general observation. As a community leader, he has an obligation to address issues as they arise. It is a shame that his words (calling for peaceful demonstrations) are somehow used to justify the actions of bored souls.

87

 Sep 03, 2009 at 10:29 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #84  
formally Says:

simply not true

proof is some tangible evidence, that can proven scientifically. If not then it is faith.

I can be very frum and know tthat there is no proof. and believe because of my faith

If there tangible proof enlighten me and the rest of us?

Why is it called emuna because there is not proof

I do not have emuna that a computer is in front of me. But one has emuna in Hashem.

that is a big diffrence

well said

88

 Sep 04, 2009 at 11:42 AM formally Says:

Reply to #85  
Anonymous Says:

Sorry you are wrong, science is the last thing that proves anything.Should i start listing all the science proven beyond the shadow of a doubt,all completly debunked by their today's scientist's?

do not go to a doctor since most medical breakthrough was found through science and not one from religion. The reason many things work right now is because science is honest with itself and can admit a theory was wrong.

religion cannot do that that is why many times people do stupid things like metzia peih even after it was found to be dangerous to children

do not drive a car, use electricity, or the internet all found with science. an elevator
ac refrigerator all great things discovers by religion HA science


also many thing about religion even the Jewish religion has been discredited you just refuse to admit it

89

 Sep 04, 2009 at 12:14 PM Fact Says:

Reply to #88  
formally Says:

do not go to a doctor since most medical breakthrough was found through science and not one from religion. The reason many things work right now is because science is honest with itself and can admit a theory was wrong.

religion cannot do that that is why many times people do stupid things like metzia peih even after it was found to be dangerous to children

do not drive a car, use electricity, or the internet all found with science. an elevator
ac refrigerator all great things discovers by religion HA science


also many thing about religion even the Jewish religion has been discredited you just refuse to admit it

What and by whom has been discredited about Judaism? A religion where more then 2,0000000 witnesses stood at Mt. Sinia and saw and heard G-D give the Torah to the Jewish nation. If you don't believe that you DO NOT belong on this board!

90

 Sep 04, 2009 at 12:07 PM what Says:

Reply to #82  
Anonymous Says:

The Yerushalayim of 100% shomr shabbos never existed. Menashe filled the Bais Hamikdash with idols. Shoftim is all about rescuing Israel after being punished for worshipping idols. Ezra came back to a Yerushalayim of mixed marraiges. The Second Bais Hamihdash was a city of Hellenists and Tzadukkim. Come back from Fantasy Land

Your the one fantasizing and hoping it won't be. I was talking about the future and you bring me stories from the past??

91

 Sep 04, 2009 at 01:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #88  
formally Says:

do not go to a doctor since most medical breakthrough was found through science and not one from religion. The reason many things work right now is because science is honest with itself and can admit a theory was wrong.

religion cannot do that that is why many times people do stupid things like metzia peih even after it was found to be dangerous to children

do not drive a car, use electricity, or the internet all found with science. an elevator
ac refrigerator all great things discovers by religion HA science


also many thing about religion even the Jewish religion has been discredited you just refuse to admit it

Ridiculious,the torah tells me to go to a doctor.Scientist's are not honest they usually hold on to their theories, no matter what.It's the next one who usually debunks the first.

92

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