Welcome, Guest! - or
Easy to remember!  »  VinNews.com

New York - What Rav Moshe Feinstein Said About Kosher Milk in The U.S.

Published on: September 9, 2009 10:33 AM
Change text size Text Size  

New York - Rabbi Moshe Feinstein zt”l was a “one-of-a-kind” leader. With his complete mastery of the Talmud and rabbinic literature, the late Gadol HaRav Moshe Feinstein, zt"lHador used his brilliant mind to process all the information he had, brought to his decisions a sensitivity to the realities of our daily existence, and balanced an accepted following by Jews on all points of the Torah-observance spectrum.

He was careful to learn as many practical details as possible of the circumstances of the questions posed to him, as he applied unchanging halakhic principles in the pursuit of his innovative halakhic conclusions.

Rav Moshe composed a number of responsa on the subject of Cholov Yisrael (Jewish milk) and Gevinat Yisrael (Jewish cheese). As kosher cheese rules are a more complicated subject than milk in general, the remainder of this essay will deal solely with Rav Moshe’s comments regarding milk.

In the first responsa on the subject, Yoreh Deah I:47 [Sivan 5714, June 1954] he articulates two points in particular, focusing on the unique experience of Jews in the United States.

Advertisement:

The first point: Jews may only consume milk that comes from kosher animals. United States law dictates that dairy farms may only produce cow milk. Were a dairy farm to get caught milking other animals, their Cholov Yisroel milk (Photo courtesy Koshermulti-million dollar business could be shut down. As the government does monitor, and as free-market enterprises are not interested in being closed down by the government if they can avoid it, we can be sure that the milk in this country comes from cows and is therefore kosher.

The second point: Some people will opt to “be machmir,” to specifically seek milk processed under Jewish supervision. Piety to a particular set of rules as a matter of sincere religious commitment is commendable. Rav Moshe writes that others who witness scrupulousness in observance of this dictum should not consider it to be arrogance or haughtiness.

Rav Moshe preferred Cholov Yisrael personally, but unequivocally said that commercially manufactured milk in the United States, as subject to US laws, was one hundred percent guaranteed to be from cows. [He repeats his suggestion to be stringent about Cholov Yisroel at the end of Yoreh Deah II:31, after he again confirms his belief that milk in the United States is not considered to be Cholov Akum, gentile milk, whose origin is unknown.]

Explaining his reasoning, Rav Moshe points to the first comments of the Shulchan Arukh in Yoreh Deah 115, invoking a principle from Shavuot 34a that “knowledge is like testimony.” If a Jew does not monitor the milking process done by a non-Jew, the milk is unfit (not kosher) for Jewish consumption. However, if other factors demonstrate that the milk comes from a kosher animal, the Jew may consume it.

In contemporary terms, if there is only a cow in a room and a non-Jewish worker enters with an empty bucket in order to milk the cow, a Jew observing these details can be sure when the non-Jewish person emerges that the milk in the filled bucket is from the cow — even if the Jew did not actually monitor the milking. This is particularly true if the non-Jewish worker understands the Jewish supervisor might enter the room at any time to check his progress.

He brings other examples of this principle as well. The last Tosafot in Yebamot 45b records that a convening Rabbinical court need not witness a female convert’s immersion in the mikveh (which would be highly inappropriate for obvious reasons) because they “know” she immersed. Similarly, a husband may reunite with his wife after she returns from the mikveh, because he “knows” she immersed.

Avodah Zara 34b describes a circumstance in which the sought product’s market price is lower than a product that might be substituted in its place. The purchaser can be sure the product purchased is what he believes it to be. No merchant would sell a more expensive product at the price of the cheaper item, just to “get you.” Translation: If cow milk is more readily available than camel milk (and therefore cheaper), no dairy farm will substitute what they market as cow milk with camel milk just so Jews will unknowingly drink camel milk.

In response to challenges on this subject (Yoreh Deah I:48), such as that a fine for tomfoolery is minimal, Rav Moshe staunchly defended his assertion that the milk is kosher because, were the milk coming from any animals other than cows, the trickery would require a lot of bribery and cover-up to hide the truth.

In the summer of 1970 (Av 5730), Rav Moshe composed a responsa (Yoreh Deah II:35) encouraging Rabbi Y.D. Leiner who had asked about making a special effort to provide yeshiva students with Cholov Yisrael, even though it is typically more expensive than regular milk. In his letter to Rabbi Leiner, two points are worthy of note.

In places where it is considerably more difficult to obtain Cholov Yisrael, presumably because of distance and/or added expense, there is no need to be stringent about it — neither for students nor individuals.

The other point Rav Moshe emphasizes when encouraging use of Cholov Yisrael in a yeshiva is “chinukh,” or the need to educate our children to be concerned about prohibitions. In other words, if children are only exposed to the idea that “all milk is kosher,” they will become desensitized to the fact that this is not so, and will not learn to be scrupulous and attentive to the laws of kosher milk, for example, when traveling abroad where there could very well be a problem.

An equivalent example of education (though Rav Moshe does not mention this) would be for a community with an eiruv to make sure it is down once or twice a year, to remind people that the laws of Shabbos prohibit carrying outside unless the area is cordoned off as a halakhic private property.

In conclusion, Rav Moshe personally drank Cholov Yisrael and encouraged others to “be machmir” if they could. At the same time, he believed that all milk manufactured by public companies in the United States (as opposed to milk produced by private farmers) was unquestionably kosher.

Jews in the US can comfortably choose to purchase either, and those who prefer one type of milk or the other should not look askance at those who choose differently than they do. Everyone is consuming kosher milk.



More of today's headlines

New York - Some cellphones emit several times more radiation than others, the Environmental Working Group found in one of the most exhaustive studies of its kind. The... New York - What's in this Harlem man's wallet? He says $168 million. James "Jimmy" Groves -- a Madison Square Garden laborer who recently defaulted on his Capital One...

 

Total184

Read Comments (184)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:14 AM R moshe Says:

R moshe was very Makpid on cholov yisroel
ask his children & talmidim

2

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:07 AM Anonymous Says:

Your comparison to Mikveh is flawed and incorrect. In addition, under the circumstances that Cholov Yisroel is so highly available and as Reb Moshe ZTZL himself was particular about it which tells us the limitations of the psak then the natural tendency is to wonder at those who don't bother to concern themselves with cholov yisroel. No one is saying that they are sinners but it does reflect a lack of sincerity, unless, again they lived in areas that did not have access to cholov yisroel and never acquired a sensitivity to it.

3

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:06 AM FRUM BUT NORMAL Says:

even the CHAZON ISH z'l who was a known to be a MACHMIR in halacha,rules that in our times when the government has strict rules in forbiding any other milk but cow milk,there is absolutely no ISSUR in CHOLOV STAM

4

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:05 AM Lawyer Says:

"In conclusion, Rav Moshe personally drank Cholov Yisrael and encouraged others to “be machmir” if they could."

The interesting question is what if Cholov Yisroel is available but costs considerably more. I was in my local supermarket in Passaic the other day. The do carry CY there as well as Cholov Stam. But the price is almost double. The cost of a full gallon of CS is only a few cents more than the cost of a half gallon of CY.

5

 Sep 09, 2009 at 09:58 AM halocho Says:

Debretziner Rav said OSUR
Many times workers put in diffrent milk mixed in

6

 Sep 09, 2009 at 09:58 AM Anonymous Says:

the big lie....

no one ever talks about the other letter from r moshe where he said he was never matir choluv stam, and he was talking about bishas hadchak ONLY.

7

 Sep 09, 2009 at 09:52 AM kosher milk Says:

today that the new shalo of Treifos came up
all milk without hechsher
is a sofek treifo
so Today every one holds you need a hechsher

8

 Sep 09, 2009 at 09:50 AM Anonymous Says:

I suggest Rabbi Billet read the Mishnah breurah where he encoreges ppl in tishray to be machmir

9

 Sep 09, 2009 at 09:48 AM Anonymous Says:

Rav Moshe was a true Gadol. He understood that not everything needed to be taken to the extreme, as long as it didnt conflict with halacha. All foods didnt need 20 different hashgachas on it to make everyone happy. Kosher was kosher- end of story. If he were alive today he'd be embarrassed by what these so called " Torah leaders" have done to our religion.

10

 Sep 09, 2009 at 09:45 AM Anonymous Says:

I knew recession will bring up this issue.

11

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:55 AM Anonymous Says:

I suspect this article was written not because of the recession, but as a sort of follow-up to another article on cholov yisrael that the Jewish Star published a week or two ago. The main point of the first article was to explore why cholov yisrael (allegedly) spoils more quickly than cholov stam.

12

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:56 AM yudel Says:

I took a Lakewood yungerman to Reb Moshe 40 years ago, as I saw him using cholov akum. Reb Moshe asked the yungerman "mi hitir lichuh"? (who was matir it for you), The Yungerman answered "reb Moshe in the teshuvas" Reb Moshe said " I know what I wrote, in Lakewood? cholov yisroel is available, so no you can't use cholov akum.

BTW. All cholov akum (stam) in the USA is cholv treif. I spoke to Rav Eliyashev & Rav Wosner about it, they bithe said it's "ossur". Rav Eliyashev also said the one that is giving "HETEIRIM" is based on not knowing the correct facts, and CAN NOT BE RELIED UPON on any of the HETEIRIM. Rav Eliyashed stated further " A psak is based on the facts, those HETEIRIM are not based on the facts."

13

 Sep 09, 2009 at 11:03 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
kosher milk Says:

today that the new shalo of Treifos came up
all milk without hechsher
is a sofek treifo
so Today every one holds you need a hechsher

Please also bring out the point that today there are other shailos regarding that they are using cows that are punctured in the belly so that the gas goes out.
and sometimes this procedure makes the cow treif

14

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:58 AM Anonymous Says:

if milk has a hechsher is that not also saying it is chalav yisroel. why is an o-u on a cholov yisroel brand different than a non brand

15

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:49 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

the big lie....

no one ever talks about the other letter from r moshe where he said he was never matir choluv stam, and he was talking about bishas hadchak ONLY.

Can you please quote where I can find this letter in Igros Moshe?

16

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:49 AM a must read Says:

while reb moshe's psak was that since the united states government monitors milk producers, we can be sure that the milk in this country comes from cows and is therefore kosher.
this psak only tells us that the milk comes from a kosher animal species, HOWEVER, there are those that are of the opinion that although cows are a kosher species, the ones that are used for milking are TREIFE, because they have a hole in a vital organ asa result of an injection that is given to the cow.
Reb Hershel Shachter of YU (modern orthodox), holds that milk nowadays is CHOLOV TREIFE and is assur to drink.

17

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:46 AM MDshweks Says:

the issue is - there are early Achronim who maintain that it's a Gzeira like all others, without the ability to make an exeption based on circomstances.

And R' Moshe himself also writes there that even this Heter "bishas hadchak" doesn't apply to milk from "small farms" that sell milk locally.

18

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:41 AM michali Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Moshe was a true Gadol. He understood that not everything needed to be taken to the extreme, as long as it didnt conflict with halacha. All foods didnt need 20 different hashgachas on it to make everyone happy. Kosher was kosher- end of story. If he were alive today he'd be embarrassed by what these so called " Torah leaders" have done to our religion.

If you think that Rav Moshe considered it extreme to be machmir on CY, why was he machmir on CY?

19

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:41 AM yossele Says:

Omitted was the fact that in the teshuvah to R Leiner he refers to cholov "stam" as "chshash issur"

20

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:31 AM Anonymous Says:

for all those who want to drink cholov stam go ahead do it it is kosher however it is not accepted by everyone however do not lecture us cholov yisroel drinkers. while you feel it is important to spend $1,000 s of dollars on plasma tv's I feel like spending it on cholv yisroel.

21

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:44 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Anonymous Says:

Rav Moshe was a true Gadol. He understood that not everything needed to be taken to the extreme, as long as it didnt conflict with halacha. All foods didnt need 20 different hashgachas on it to make everyone happy. Kosher was kosher- end of story. If he were alive today he'd be embarrassed by what these so called " Torah leaders" have done to our religion.

Your opinion.
The issues are not extreme vs not extreme.
The question of cholov stam is if it conflicts with halacha, as are all issues
Halach is not an emotional subject but more a science. Reb Moshe also was aware when he placed a psak that was relying on certain leniency because of certain circumstances.
Be aware Reb Moshe was in the forefront of not allowing the Eruv in Brooklyn. The new generation decided not to "take it to the extreme"

22

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:44 AM Future Jew Says:

Re : R' Moshe's Zt"l Heter

1) How much " mesiros nefesh" is required to be stringent to use Cholov Yisroel (CY) relative to cost and convenience ?
2) If someone who is "machmir" to use Cholov Yisroel " goes to an area where CY is not available , does he need to ask a Rov for a "Heter"?
3) Does Cholov Stam have the same din as Pas Palter regarding the chumrah to use Pas Yisroel during the "Aseres Yemei Tashuvah"?

23

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:43 AM Ojoe Says:

"no one ever talks about the other letter from r moshe where he said he was never matir choluv stam, and he was talking about bishas hadchak ONLY."

No one ever talks about it because it does not exist.

The real issue is that CY is MUCH more expensive. Since R moshe was Matir it Cholov stam in America, it is a Chumrah to keep CY, not a chiyyuv, and R Moshe specifically says in his teshuvo that one should not noodge people who are somech on it.

We live in a day and age where Chumrah has become the norm and where people who keep chumros think that whoever doesnt do exactly like they do are shkotzim. Its a terrible situation, especially in Elul.

24

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:41 AM Anonymous Says:

The basic problem with rabbi feinstiens ruling is that it is based on incorect information provided to him at the time. No goverment or regulatory body exits to verify whether the milk is cows milk or not. No law exists against mixing cow milk with any other milk whilst its not common and not practical the concept of' mirtas'is not plain not in picture. You will never see on a milk bottle 100 pc cows milk the dairys can leagaly do watever they want,in addition, the problem problem of surgeries done on cows is a real problem

25

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:39 AM michali Says:

My husband spoke to a mashgiach at a Mehadrin plant in upstate NY about this issue of CY. He stated today, unfortunately, the issue is not whether the milk comes from a cow, but rather the issue is whether the cow is treif or not. He told my husband that today many cows have had surgeries that may render them and their milk treif.

"Here in the US where it is difficult to be present at such surgeries and it is difficult to obtain a detailed history of the each cow, all cows that that have any kind of operation are removed from the CY production line." (Mishpacha Mag., 5/9/07)

This is not so for plants that do produce Cholov stam products.

26

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:38 AM formally Says:

Reply to #5  
halocho Says:

Debretziner Rav said OSUR
Many times workers put in diffrent milk mixed in

how are they going to mix it up it is all done in factory farm where there are only cows the milk is not touched or processed by human nor is there a chance to mix it up.

maybe he should have gone on a field trip and see how milk is produced. My guess is he did not go? or, I am sure of it then he would have seen that it simply cannot happen

27

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:34 AM shimon Says:

It doesn't take too much research to read R"M's teshuvos on this subject. I'm not sure that the author of this article did so. He is seriously misrepresenting the reasoning and circumstance under which RMF mattired chalav hacompanies (and NOT any chalav akum /i.e. private/, as it might seem from the article).

28

 Sep 09, 2009 at 11:33 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
Anonymous Says:

for all those who want to drink cholov stam go ahead do it it is kosher however it is not accepted by everyone however do not lecture us cholov yisroel drinkers. while you feel it is important to spend $1,000 s of dollars on plasma tv's I feel like spending it on cholv yisroel.

what about those who dont have tv's and cant afford that extra cost. have you ever walked into a house on shabbos where lunch was rice krispies because that was all they coulsd afford, yet they only have CY milk. i am sorry to sound as if i am picking on you but it is time for todays gedolim to say before you spend extra money you may not have on frumer products spend it on things that are just as kosher so you can feed your families something with nutrition. how many children are walking around malnourished because there parents cant afford food staples. asurvey was done but not for publishing purposes that showed that for a family of 6, the cost differential for food of the "better " hechsher averages 115 dollars difference per week. how can one justify this when they can barely afford rent, tuition maybe a car etc....

29

 Sep 09, 2009 at 11:29 AM shabos Says:

Reb moshe zatzal did not allow to produce cholov stam products

30

 Sep 09, 2009 at 11:41 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

what about those who dont have tv's and cant afford that extra cost. have you ever walked into a house on shabbos where lunch was rice krispies because that was all they coulsd afford, yet they only have CY milk. i am sorry to sound as if i am picking on you but it is time for todays gedolim to say before you spend extra money you may not have on frumer products spend it on things that are just as kosher so you can feed your families something with nutrition. how many children are walking around malnourished because there parents cant afford food staples. asurvey was done but not for publishing purposes that showed that for a family of 6, the cost differential for food of the "better " hechsher averages 115 dollars difference per week. how can one justify this when they can barely afford rent, tuition maybe a car etc....

You never walked into such a home either. Your exaggerations are not helping the debate. In addition you choose to ignore that Reb Moshes psak was not based on monetary factors but on availability. Remember no one voided Cholov Yisroel.
I'm intrigued that your proof of poverty is those that don't have TVs

31

 Sep 09, 2009 at 11:40 AM Future Jew Says:

It would be helpful that when quoting a pasak ,to state the source ,so that others can verify both content and circumstance. Specifically #12 did either of these rabonnim write down this pasak or did they just issue the pasak verbally,in which case it might just pertain to you and not be a halachah incumbent on the klall. Also #16 where and when did R'Hershel Shachter state this issur.Finally #19 what is the teshuvah #.

32

 Sep 09, 2009 at 11:48 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

what about those who dont have tv's and cant afford that extra cost. have you ever walked into a house on shabbos where lunch was rice krispies because that was all they coulsd afford, yet they only have CY milk. i am sorry to sound as if i am picking on you but it is time for todays gedolim to say before you spend extra money you may not have on frumer products spend it on things that are just as kosher so you can feed your families something with nutrition. how many children are walking around malnourished because there parents cant afford food staples. asurvey was done but not for publishing purposes that showed that for a family of 6, the cost differential for food of the "better " hechsher averages 115 dollars difference per week. how can one justify this when they can barely afford rent, tuition maybe a car etc....

You may be wasting your tuition money entirely if there are Kashrus issues. A better hechsher means a "better hechsher" which in itself infers that the lower valued hechsherim leave suitability questionable. Eating Tarfus is the main cause for children going off the derech in these generations. See Aruch Hashulchan.
Thus, alternately, as we are seeing a major increase of "kids at risk", we ought to wonder if our kashrus is culpable

33

 Sep 09, 2009 at 11:46 AM berel Says:

Reply to #3  
FRUM BUT NORMAL Says:

even the CHAZON ISH z'l who was a known to be a MACHMIR in halacha,rules that in our times when the government has strict rules in forbiding any other milk but cow milk,there is absolutely no ISSUR in CHOLOV STAM

#3 can you refer to reliable sources. i talk a lot with a rov that was close to the chazon ish.he didnt hear of such psak.

34

 Sep 09, 2009 at 11:49 AM Anonymous Says:

today this isnt really a issue. 99% of the stores in bp flatbush willi ect... carry cholov yisroel milk. Its not hard to find yisroel milk. what i dont understand is why people are saying that if its not cholov yosroel its not kosher. if there is a hechsher its kosher ? thats the point of the hechsher.

35

 Sep 09, 2009 at 11:39 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
yudel Says:

I took a Lakewood yungerman to Reb Moshe 40 years ago, as I saw him using cholov akum. Reb Moshe asked the yungerman "mi hitir lichuh"? (who was matir it for you), The Yungerman answered "reb Moshe in the teshuvas" Reb Moshe said " I know what I wrote, in Lakewood? cholov yisroel is available, so no you can't use cholov akum.

BTW. All cholov akum (stam) in the USA is cholv treif. I spoke to Rav Eliyashev & Rav Wosner about it, they bithe said it's "ossur". Rav Eliyashev also said the one that is giving "HETEIRIM" is based on not knowing the correct facts, and CAN NOT BE RELIED UPON on any of the HETEIRIM. Rav Eliyashed stated further " A psak is based on the facts, those HETEIRIM are not based on the facts."

Rav Elyashin, he should live and be well, doesn't even speak english. what on EARTH does he know about the US dairy industry?

36

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:37 AM safe side Says:

Firstly it is mentioned above that everything said by Rav Moshe Feinstein is in regards to U.S.A. other countries however do not have the same regulations. REASONS TO BE STRICT IN CHALAV YISRAOEL: Drinking non kosher milk is a transgression of the code of Jewish law, and it is brought down in kabala that consuming non kosher food has a negative effect on the mind and heart of the Jew who consumes it, causing what’s known as “Timtum halev v’hamoach”-contamination of the heart and mind, and as brought down in many places it also bring to “doubts in ones beliefs of Hashem”. I would expect that most G-d fearing individuals would not want to drink something that may even in the smallest possibility effect them in such a negative spiritual way. The questioned is, is it possible that some non kosher milk may end up in your body? The answer is yes, although it is logically very possible and likely that you are drinking Kosher milk never the less you have to ask yourself the question: If you knew that there was even the smallest possibility that what you were about to drink may have some poison in it and it may have a fatal effect on you, WOULD YOU DRINK IT? Or would you rather be on the safer side?

37

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:36 AM fedup11230 Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Your comparison to Mikveh is flawed and incorrect. In addition, under the circumstances that Cholov Yisroel is so highly available and as Reb Moshe ZTZL himself was particular about it which tells us the limitations of the psak then the natural tendency is to wonder at those who don't bother to concern themselves with cholov yisroel. No one is saying that they are sinners but it does reflect a lack of sincerity, unless, again they lived in areas that did not have access to cholov yisroel and never acquired a sensitivity to it.

#2 wrote “Your comparison to Mikveh is flawed and incorrect."

Read the line carefully. It is part of R' Moshe's tshuvah that compares it to Mikveh, not Rabbi Billet's comparison.

38

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:29 AM Anonymous Says:

Accoring to the OU Rav Moshe's heter is no longer applicable in the form he proposed and a different basis is now needed to be able to use what is commonly referred to as Chalav Stam.

http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/1377721

Rav Moshe's tshuva where he addresses using chalav yisroel in schools as part of chinuch is not simply to educate the children that chalav akum is assur, but specifically to educate them that a baal nefesh should be machmir and drink only chalav yisroel.

39

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:28 AM Jack Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

I suggest Rabbi Billet read the Mishnah breurah where he encoreges ppl in tishray to be machmir

What exactly is your point? He clearly states that Rav Moshe encouraged people to be machmir (as the MB does).

40

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:22 AM bayrish Says:

al pi chassidus, cholov akum is metamtim halev vihamoach & brings sfaikis in emuneh.. reb moishe's psak is certaintly not lichatchileh..

41

 Sep 09, 2009 at 11:52 AM berel Says:

Reply to #25  
michali Says:

My husband spoke to a mashgiach at a Mehadrin plant in upstate NY about this issue of CY. He stated today, unfortunately, the issue is not whether the milk comes from a cow, but rather the issue is whether the cow is treif or not. He told my husband that today many cows have had surgeries that may render them and their milk treif.

"Here in the US where it is difficult to be present at such surgeries and it is difficult to obtain a detailed history of the each cow, all cows that that have any kind of operation are removed from the CY production line." (Mishpacha Mag., 5/9/07)

This is not so for plants that do produce Cholov stam products.

#25 if cow is trief, but is alive the milk is not kosher? is that the halacha? can anyone educate me on this prat?

42

 Sep 09, 2009 at 11:51 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
a must read Says:

while reb moshe's psak was that since the united states government monitors milk producers, we can be sure that the milk in this country comes from cows and is therefore kosher.
this psak only tells us that the milk comes from a kosher animal species, HOWEVER, there are those that are of the opinion that although cows are a kosher species, the ones that are used for milking are TREIFE, because they have a hole in a vital organ asa result of an injection that is given to the cow.
Reb Hershel Shachter of YU (modern orthodox), holds that milk nowadays is CHOLOV TREIFE and is assur to drink.

Nice how people invent halachos, to justify their superiority on minutae. Keep all 613 mitzvahs better. To be kosher, milk needs to be from an animal that is a kosher breed. Not an animal that (individually) is certified kosher itself. No animal is certified kosher until it is killed ! Your statement has no basis nor logic.
A camel that is milked - the milk is treif.
A cow that is milked - the milk is kosher.
You can debate levels of supervision (i.e. cholov stam vs. yisrael) all you want - but the milk which is 100% from a cow is kosher; end of story.

43

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:25 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
halocho Says:

Debretziner Rav said OSUR
Many times workers put in diffrent milk mixed in

What kind of milk, if I may ask? Non kosher animals are not commonly milked in the Western World. In North Africa, they milk camels, and in Mongolia horses, but in the West?

There are reasons to be machmir, as numerous poskim indicated. There is also whom to rely on if one is meikil. But none of this is connected to an actual likelihood of the milk containing חלב טמאה, unless you live, for example, in Egypt.

44

 Sep 09, 2009 at 12:02 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #31  
Future Jew Says:

It would be helpful that when quoting a pasak ,to state the source ,so that others can verify both content and circumstance. Specifically #12 did either of these rabonnim write down this pasak or did they just issue the pasak verbally,in which case it might just pertain to you and not be a halachah incumbent on the klall. Also #16 where and when did R'Hershel Shachter state this issur.Finally #19 what is the teshuvah #.

Thank you.
Someone with a level head here.
These people "quote" rumors that they heard as fact.

No different from fundamentalists who quote the koran as the source for harming jews - when no such verse exists at all (and in fact, the opposite is true).

The only thing more dangerous than an uniformed person, is an uninformed person who erroneously thinks he is informed and lectures others to perpetuate the fallacy.

Shonoh Tovah to all.

45

 Sep 09, 2009 at 12:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #42  
Anonymous Says:

Nice how people invent halachos, to justify their superiority on minutae. Keep all 613 mitzvahs better. To be kosher, milk needs to be from an animal that is a kosher breed. Not an animal that (individually) is certified kosher itself. No animal is certified kosher until it is killed ! Your statement has no basis nor logic.
A camel that is milked - the milk is treif.
A cow that is milked - the milk is kosher.
You can debate levels of supervision (i.e. cholov stam vs. yisrael) all you want - but the milk which is 100% from a cow is kosher; end of story.

"but the milk which is 100% from a cow is kosher; end of story"
Uh, not exactly. It's only kosher based on the fact that the majority of cows in the world (or at least the country) are kosher. Nowadays, we are getting closer and closer to that no longer being the case. If there is no chazaka of such a majority, then the milk is not kosher.

46

 Sep 09, 2009 at 11:55 AM berel Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

what about those who dont have tv's and cant afford that extra cost. have you ever walked into a house on shabbos where lunch was rice krispies because that was all they coulsd afford, yet they only have CY milk. i am sorry to sound as if i am picking on you but it is time for todays gedolim to say before you spend extra money you may not have on frumer products spend it on things that are just as kosher so you can feed your families something with nutrition. how many children are walking around malnourished because there parents cant afford food staples. asurvey was done but not for publishing purposes that showed that for a family of 6, the cost differential for food of the "better " hechsher averages 115 dollars difference per week. how can one justify this when they can barely afford rent, tuition maybe a car etc....

#28 ' those who dont have tv'?? are you sure you knew what you wrote?TV? vu kumt a TV in a ehrliche torah shtube? and if yes, chalav akum is least of thier problems, besides such homes couldnt care less what milk they have.

47

 Sep 09, 2009 at 11:53 AM Lawyer Says:

Reply to #17  
MDshweks Says:

the issue is - there are early Achronim who maintain that it's a Gzeira like all others, without the ability to make an exeption based on circomstances.

And R' Moshe himself also writes there that even this Heter "bishas hadchak" doesn't apply to milk from "small farms" that sell milk locally.

The Shach, whose opinion carries great weight in halacha, says that a Yotzei ve Nichnas is sufficient. It is generally accepted lehalacha. RMF's hetter is a small extension of that view.

48

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:24 AM Not so simple Says:

Even though Rabbi Feinstein according to Halacha was able to find a way how to permit regular milk in the US, the Torah has another aspect which is nishmoso deOiraiso, or the soul of the Torah which is pnimius haTorah.
According to Pnimius HaTorah, drinking Non Cholov Yisroel has a negative spiritual effect on the person that consumes it, regarding specifically his Emunah.
While nobody is going to look down at somebody that lives in a place where Cholov yisroel Isroel is not easily available, a person that has Iras Shomaim and is not only looking to do what he pleases as long as he may find a permit to do so, but he cares for his neshomo (soul), would never eat a non Cholov Yisroel product.
For those that don't drink non cholov Yisroel milk, the utensils used with non cholov yisroel milk or products are considered non kosher and need to be kosherized.

49

 Sep 09, 2009 at 09:51 AM Anonymous Says:

This is one of the most well thought out and clearly articulated summaries of Reb Moishe's position I have ever read. Very well done. The bottom line for most of us is that if cholov yisroel of reasonably good quality (in terms fo spoilage and shelf life) is available, even at a slight cost premium to regular milk and milk products, we should try to use those products we should do so. Where either the product is not readily available at good quality or at reasonable cost (i.e. priced excessively above regular milk) a heimeshe yid can safely drink regular milk without any feeling that he is bein oyver a major lav or not being shomer halacaha. If one wishes to be machmir and pay the additional cost or drive an hour or two to obtain fresh chalav yisroel, there will be some zchus for the being so dilligent. In the scheme of things, if there are tradeoffs that have to be made (i.e. buying meat with a better hashgacha versus buying cholov yisroel, the choice is easy.).

50

 Sep 09, 2009 at 09:41 AM Charlie Hall Says:

One minor correction to the article: In the US, one can actually purchase milk and other dairy products such as cheese that are from animals other than cows. In particular, milk and cheese from goats are widely distributed; I personally ate some kosher cheese from goats just two Shabats ago. However, such products have to be labelled as such, and there is currently no milk from non-kosher animals sold in the US. The only real kashrut issue is the possibility of non-kosher additives; a prominent regional dairy in the Northeast was using non-kosher additives about ten years ago and lost their hechsher.

51

 Sep 09, 2009 at 09:41 AM Anonymous Says:

Please note that starting some time after Reb Moshe Zl was niftar ,many cows have had a procedure that renders them treife . There are serious issues as to milk coming from a treife cow ,that transcend the issuer of Cholov Yisroel . It is impossible to know what Reb Moshe would have paskened on that issue . Therefore ,TODAY drinking Cholov Akum masy have more serious issues .

52

 Sep 09, 2009 at 12:04 PM Future Jew Says:

#24 is completely in error. (aside from the Chutzpah of implying that R' Moshe did not research the "facts"). Government agencies that exist to monitor the purity of milk and to insure that it is not adulterated are the New York State Dept of Agriculture and the New York Dept of Health. Milk by definition means cows milk. Furthermore if anyone got an allergic reaction to adulterated milk he could sue the milk producer. This may be another factor in causing " mirsus". Also non-kosher milk ,or example from a horse or pig ,is not readily available and there would be no reason for a milk producer to put himself in jeopardy for no benefit. Note.: The question of treifus caused by placing a bolt in the cows stomach has been addressed by the OU.

#29 is nonsensical

53

 Sep 09, 2009 at 12:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
halocho Says:

Debretziner Rav said OSUR
Many times workers put in diffrent milk mixed in

Why would they do that?

54

 Sep 09, 2009 at 12:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

"but the milk which is 100% from a cow is kosher; end of story"
Uh, not exactly. It's only kosher based on the fact that the majority of cows in the world (or at least the country) are kosher. Nowadays, we are getting closer and closer to that no longer being the case. If there is no chazaka of such a majority, then the milk is not kosher.

Sure, rabbi #45. Lots of things sound nice. Reality and halacha is another thing.

Everyone keeps saying "it says in the shulchan oruch" or "mesechta avoda zara says you need cholov yisrael". All correct - no dispute. But did you READ either (or both) of those to see what "cholov yisrael" means?
Read Shulchan Oruch, Yoreh Deyah 115:1
Read Avoda Zarah daf 35 amud beis
Both places teach us that:
"Milk is only permissible when a Yisroel watches the milking, verifying that milk from non-kosher animal species is not incorporated"

So the milk has to be from a cow. finished. end of story. It's "kosher species" not "a kosher certified animal" (which only happens after they are shechted - but that logic fails you too)...

You can choose to be machmir on whatever you want. Heck, you can decide that unless your shirt has red on it, for the ayin horah, you won't wear it. Great. We're happy for you. But milk that comes 100% from a cow is 100% kosher and (if it is verified that they are all cows) cholov yisrael.

Nobody cares what is the personal situation of each cow, or how happy they are, or what color their eyes are either. Kosher is kosher - don't invent your personal preferences as new halachas.

55

 Sep 09, 2009 at 12:32 PM AuthenticSatmar Says:

I am getting more and more troubled by the downgrading of yiddishkeit aka modernization. Being frum is about living in the fear and shadow of g-d at all times and not only when convenient.
R' Moshe was great, but not every psak of his did everyone agree on. It is well known what R' Moshe's position was, as explained by his children - yet we look to base a whole industry on a written psak that was not intended to deliver those heterim.
Does this Rabbi have a TV in his home? Does he care what R' Moshe said about a TV? Does he send his children to college, when we know R' Moshe encouraged a young couple to live a kollel life?
Why is it ok for them to pick and choose, yet they criticize us for that?
The bottom line is everyone should do whatever they want and stop policing others.
Until I come storming into your home to confiscate your tv and internet, don't harass me for buying CY milk or learning in kollel or having a large family.
This country was founded on the basis of people being able to live a life of their choosing. The liberals/communists have slowly been eating away at those rights. Unless you are just the right percentage mix of liberal/conservative you are no longer a legitimate citizen of this country, and the gov't will force you to comply with their viewpoint. Its disgusting and should be stopped before its too late.

56

 Sep 09, 2009 at 12:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
Ojoe Says:

"no one ever talks about the other letter from r moshe where he said he was never matir choluv stam, and he was talking about bishas hadchak ONLY."

No one ever talks about it because it does not exist.

The real issue is that CY is MUCH more expensive. Since R moshe was Matir it Cholov stam in America, it is a Chumrah to keep CY, not a chiyyuv, and R Moshe specifically says in his teshuvo that one should not noodge people who are somech on it.

We live in a day and age where Chumrah has become the norm and where people who keep chumros think that whoever doesnt do exactly like they do are shkotzim. Its a terrible situation, especially in Elul.

That other letter from r moshe does exist. It is in the final volume of Igrot Moshe on YD that was published after his death.

57

 Sep 09, 2009 at 12:17 PM Anonymous Says:

The idea of calling Cholov Acum “Cholov Stam” is totally am haratzuz!! “Cholov Stam” is Cholov Acum! The Word “stam” that people use for milk is stolen form wine. We are particularly strict when it comes to wine, because of yayin nesach, that is why we don’t drink wine of a non-Jewish person, because of the cheshash that he might have mixed in to his wine some yayin nesach. This wine is called “Stam Yayinom”. There is no such think of CHOLOV STAM!, it is totally cholov acum!!! People just label it “cholov stam” to make it easier for them to drink cholov acum!

58

 Sep 09, 2009 at 12:22 PM frum but normal Says:

Reply to #33  
berel Says:

#3 can you refer to reliable sources. i talk a lot with a rov that was close to the chazon ish.he didnt hear of such psak.

Berel,look it up it is in CHAZON ISH,YOREH DAYA HILCHUS MACHOLEI ACKUM
it is right there,and what is amazing,the chazon ish does not even tell us to be machmir,he just say's matter of factly that BIZMAN HAZEH where the government has strict rules on the production of milk,there is no ISSUR of CHOLOV AKUM.
he even brings down the famous CHSAM SOFER ,who PASKENS that CHOLOV AKUM even if we know for sure that there is no other milk mixed in is still ASSUR.
[this is the CHSAM SOFER that most hungarian rabbis rely for their prohobition on CHOLOV STAM ] ,and the CHAZON ISH disregards this PSSAK,and does not agree with it

59

 Sep 09, 2009 at 01:01 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:

Reply to #57  
Anonymous Says:

The idea of calling Cholov Acum “Cholov Stam” is totally am haratzuz!! “Cholov Stam” is Cholov Acum! The Word “stam” that people use for milk is stolen form wine. We are particularly strict when it comes to wine, because of yayin nesach, that is why we don’t drink wine of a non-Jewish person, because of the cheshash that he might have mixed in to his wine some yayin nesach. This wine is called “Stam Yayinom”. There is no such think of CHOLOV STAM!, it is totally cholov acum!!! People just label it “cholov stam” to make it easier for them to drink cholov acum!

R' Moshe did not use the term "cholov stam". He refered to non cholov Yisroel milk as "cholov hacompanies".

60

 Sep 09, 2009 at 01:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #54  
Anonymous Says:

Sure, rabbi #45. Lots of things sound nice. Reality and halacha is another thing.

Everyone keeps saying "it says in the shulchan oruch" or "mesechta avoda zara says you need cholov yisrael". All correct - no dispute. But did you READ either (or both) of those to see what "cholov yisrael" means?
Read Shulchan Oruch, Yoreh Deyah 115:1
Read Avoda Zarah daf 35 amud beis
Both places teach us that:
"Milk is only permissible when a Yisroel watches the milking, verifying that milk from non-kosher animal species is not incorporated"

So the milk has to be from a cow. finished. end of story. It's "kosher species" not "a kosher certified animal" (which only happens after they are shechted - but that logic fails you too)...

You can choose to be machmir on whatever you want. Heck, you can decide that unless your shirt has red on it, for the ayin horah, you won't wear it. Great. We're happy for you. But milk that comes 100% from a cow is 100% kosher and (if it is verified that they are all cows) cholov yisrael.

Nobody cares what is the personal situation of each cow, or how happy they are, or what color their eyes are either. Kosher is kosher - don't invent your personal preferences as new halachas.

"Nobody cares what is the personal situation of each cow, or how happy they are, or what color their eyes are either. Kosher is kosher - don't invent your personal preferences as new halachas."

I didn't invent anything. What I said is correct. So far as I know, if you know a cow is a treifah, you are not allowed to drink its milk. We just assume that most cows are not treif. Same thing with eggs, by the way, so watch out for those chickens.

You can choose to ignore it if you want, but those rabbonim who have been discussing this issue say that the days of chalav akum being muttar are drawing to a close.

61

 Sep 09, 2009 at 12:58 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:

Reply to #5  
halocho Says:

Debretziner Rav said OSUR
Many times workers put in diffrent milk mixed in

This is arrant nonsense. No milk sold commercially in the U.S. has anything besides pure cow's milk in it unless it is specifically sold as goat's or sheep's milk (the only other animals that are milked in the US. Also kosher). The only non-kosher animals that humans milk are camels and horses, neither of which occurs in the U.S. Drinking only cholov Yisroel is a laudable midah chasidus which I myself and my family practice, but the suggestion that commercial milk could be adulterated with milk from non-kosher animals is laughable.

62

 Sep 09, 2009 at 12:47 PM berel Says:

Reply to #52  
Future Jew Says:

#24 is completely in error. (aside from the Chutzpah of implying that R' Moshe did not research the "facts"). Government agencies that exist to monitor the purity of milk and to insure that it is not adulterated are the New York State Dept of Agriculture and the New York Dept of Health. Milk by definition means cows milk. Furthermore if anyone got an allergic reaction to adulterated milk he could sue the milk producer. This may be another factor in causing " mirsus". Also non-kosher milk ,or example from a horse or pig ,is not readily available and there would be no reason for a milk producer to put himself in jeopardy for no benefit. Note.: The question of treifus caused by placing a bolt in the cows stomach has been addressed by the OU.

#29 is nonsensical

#52..and you should be just as angry at #35 for implying that rav eliyashev doesnt understand some issue because he doesnt speak english

63

 Sep 09, 2009 at 12:47 PM nyfunnyman Says:

Reply to #31  
Future Jew Says:

It would be helpful that when quoting a pasak ,to state the source ,so that others can verify both content and circumstance. Specifically #12 did either of these rabonnim write down this pasak or did they just issue the pasak verbally,in which case it might just pertain to you and not be a halachah incumbent on the klall. Also #16 where and when did R'Hershel Shachter state this issur.Finally #19 what is the teshuvah #.

RHS doesn't paskin this way for others and therefore hasn't written it down (although it is one of the lates RJJ journals about the milk by R Zylberman). he only is machmir for himself

64

 Sep 09, 2009 at 01:05 PM berel Says:

Reply to #58  
frum but normal Says:

Berel,look it up it is in CHAZON ISH,YOREH DAYA HILCHUS MACHOLEI ACKUM
it is right there,and what is amazing,the chazon ish does not even tell us to be machmir,he just say's matter of factly that BIZMAN HAZEH where the government has strict rules on the production of milk,there is no ISSUR of CHOLOV AKUM.
he even brings down the famous CHSAM SOFER ,who PASKENS that CHOLOV AKUM even if we know for sure that there is no other milk mixed in is still ASSUR.
[this is the CHSAM SOFER that most hungarian rabbis rely for their prohobition on CHOLOV STAM ] ,and the CHAZON ISH disregards this PSSAK,and does not agree with it

yasher koach will look iy'hs

65

 Sep 09, 2009 at 12:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #57  
Anonymous Says:

The idea of calling Cholov Acum “Cholov Stam” is totally am haratzuz!! “Cholov Stam” is Cholov Acum! The Word “stam” that people use for milk is stolen form wine. We are particularly strict when it comes to wine, because of yayin nesach, that is why we don’t drink wine of a non-Jewish person, because of the cheshash that he might have mixed in to his wine some yayin nesach. This wine is called “Stam Yayinom”. There is no such think of CHOLOV STAM!, it is totally cholov acum!!! People just label it “cholov stam” to make it easier for them to drink cholov acum!

So all the rabbonim (including Rav Moshe) who use the term "cholov stam" aren't talking to you - since you say nobody ever said this.
And to compare to wine is ignorant to say the least.

Milk is a kashrus issue. It falls under the normal and regular requirements of kosher foods.
Wine is an avodah zorah issue - not a kashrut one at all. Two totally unrelated halachos.

So, are you Mr. "everyone else is totally am haratzuz" - or shall we say "Mr. pot calling the kettle black"?

66

 Sep 09, 2009 at 12:41 PM nyfunnyman Says:

Reply to #16  
a must read Says:

while reb moshe's psak was that since the united states government monitors milk producers, we can be sure that the milk in this country comes from cows and is therefore kosher.
this psak only tells us that the milk comes from a kosher animal species, HOWEVER, there are those that are of the opinion that although cows are a kosher species, the ones that are used for milking are TREIFE, because they have a hole in a vital organ asa result of an injection that is given to the cow.
Reb Hershel Shachter of YU (modern orthodox), holds that milk nowadays is CHOLOV TREIFE and is assur to drink.

this is true- but he does not paskin this for anyone, only for himself.

67

 Sep 09, 2009 at 12:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
Anonymous Says:

Please note that starting some time after Reb Moshe Zl was niftar ,many cows have had a procedure that renders them treife . There are serious issues as to milk coming from a treife cow ,that transcend the issuer of Cholov Yisroel . It is impossible to know what Reb Moshe would have paskened on that issue . Therefore ,TODAY drinking Cholov Akum masy have more serious issues .

nobody is drinking cholov akum. It is cholov stam.

As Obama said (regarding Palin) If you dress up a pig and put make-up on a pig, it's still a pig. If you rant and rave about cholov stam, it doesn't make it cholov akum.

Rav moshe paskened that all milk produced in the united states is cholov stam - not cholov akum. Cholov akum doesn't exist here. Have you ever seen horse milk at your supermarket? What about pig milk? Thank you.

Milk in the USA is either cholov stam or cholov yisrael.
Rav Moshe (and many many others) have paskened that cholov stam has a chazakah of being like cholov yisrael - and is hence permissable. Nobody, ever, in any source, said that FDA certified milk is cholov akum (i.e. comes from a mixture of cows/goats and horses/pigs).

68

 Sep 09, 2009 at 12:22 PM Orthowatch Says:

People can argue all they want. The fact is, R' Moshe and now R' Belsky both said it is permissible to drink the milk. You may think you know better, so do what you want. Don't try to tell me I'm doing something wrong.
As for the cows undergoing the procedure to release the gas from their stomach: R' Belsky said that it doesn't make them a treifah. The reason is that he personally observed that these cows live for well over a year after the procedure. A treifah, by definition, is an animal which will die within a year. When a cow, after shechitah, is found with a hole in its lung, we assume it would have died within a year, which is what makes it a treifah. These cows live past that, so they are kosher.

69

 Sep 09, 2009 at 12:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #38  
Anonymous Says:

Accoring to the OU Rav Moshe's heter is no longer applicable in the form he proposed and a different basis is now needed to be able to use what is commonly referred to as Chalav Stam.

http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/1377721

Rav Moshe's tshuva where he addresses using chalav yisroel in schools as part of chinuch is not simply to educate the children that chalav akum is assur, but specifically to educate them that a baal nefesh should be machmir and drink only chalav yisroel.

The article you quote is actually MORE MEIKEL than R'moshe - and indeed suggests that people who might not have accepted the kulah of rav moshe 50 years ago may be able to accept cholov stam today !

So you tried to justify your own chumrah, by showing a source that shoots you down... Oy - if people would just learn halachos first, and then attack people later...

Elul everyone - stop knocking people with no basis...

70

 Sep 09, 2009 at 01:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Interesting thought, isn't milk pasteurized, which is actually cooking, so that would go into the problem of "Bishul Akum"?

71

 Sep 09, 2009 at 01:37 PM Anonymous Says:

#14: cholov stam with a hechsher is going on the heter of R Moshe, so it's not nessecarily cholov yisroel. if for example 2 hechsharim are on a carton of milk, one being a cholov yisroel hechsher the other a cholov stam, then a cholov yisroel drinker will only drink that milk b/c of the cholov yisroel hecsher. take away the cholov yisroel hechsher and he wont drink it with the cholov stam hechsher alone, b/c that does not garauntee him cholov yisroel.
#16: I heard R Herschel Shachter speak about this issue, and he did not assur milk for everyone. He is machmir on himself, but to my knowledge he did not tell anyone else to follow such a chumroh.

72

 Sep 09, 2009 at 01:23 PM Experianced mashgiach Says:

It is a known scientific fact that even acouple of drops of milk from a chazir will stop thousands of litres of cows milk turning sour.
This is done in USA by farms which are a long distance from the tanker bases, and the collection tankers break down or are held up by bad weather.
If they would not do this the milk would sour and they would lose many, many $'s.

73

 Sep 09, 2009 at 01:44 PM Anonymous Says:

# 52 please can anyone tell me of a dairy milk producing establishment that has been closed down or penalised for mixing other milk into cows milk ????

74

 Sep 09, 2009 at 01:53 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #55  
AuthenticSatmar Says:

I am getting more and more troubled by the downgrading of yiddishkeit aka modernization. Being frum is about living in the fear and shadow of g-d at all times and not only when convenient.
R' Moshe was great, but not every psak of his did everyone agree on. It is well known what R' Moshe's position was, as explained by his children - yet we look to base a whole industry on a written psak that was not intended to deliver those heterim.
Does this Rabbi have a TV in his home? Does he care what R' Moshe said about a TV? Does he send his children to college, when we know R' Moshe encouraged a young couple to live a kollel life?
Why is it ok for them to pick and choose, yet they criticize us for that?
The bottom line is everyone should do whatever they want and stop policing others.
Until I come storming into your home to confiscate your tv and internet, don't harass me for buying CY milk or learning in kollel or having a large family.
This country was founded on the basis of people being able to live a life of their choosing. The liberals/communists have slowly been eating away at those rights. Unless you are just the right percentage mix of liberal/conservative you are no longer a legitimate citizen of this country, and the gov't will force you to comply with their viewpoint. Its disgusting and should be stopped before its too late.

I have no intention of harassing you for buying CY milk or learning in kollel or having a large family. Just don't ask me to pay for it.

75

 Sep 09, 2009 at 01:53 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
Anonymous Says:

Your comparison to Mikveh is flawed and incorrect. In addition, under the circumstances that Cholov Yisroel is so highly available and as Reb Moshe ZTZL himself was particular about it which tells us the limitations of the psak then the natural tendency is to wonder at those who don't bother to concern themselves with cholov yisroel. No one is saying that they are sinners but it does reflect a lack of sincerity, unless, again they lived in areas that did not have access to cholov yisroel and never acquired a sensitivity to it.

Yes, the natural tendency "the natural tendency is to wonder at those who don't bother to concern themselves with cholov yisroel", that is the natural tendency of a hypocritical, self righteous individual. The only one who should be judging others is Go-d. Why are you looking at others habits as to draw judgment about them? You might possibly want to work on that first rather than prod others to drink cholov yisrael.

76

 Sep 09, 2009 at 01:53 PM YLH Says:

When Reb Moishe wrote his thsuvah in 5714, milk was pure milk - no addittives. Now Vitamin A & D are added to milk and as such, would probably need a reliable hechsher, as the cheapest source of these is not kosher.

77

 Sep 09, 2009 at 02:22 PM I asked R' Dovid Says:

"Ask his sons"

I asked R' Dovid Feinstein what his father held about milk (after reading his teshovos). His response was, "If it costs a couple pennies more buy cholov yisroel, but if you have a candy bar, and it tastes good- eat it."

Pretty clear if you ask me. R' Dovid clearly stated to me and those with me that chalav stam in america is not a problem although one should drink chalav yisroel if it's not much more expensive. So go enjoy your delicious haagen-dasz or milky way! The gadol hador said to!

78

 Sep 09, 2009 at 02:21 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:

Reply to #76  
YLH Says:

When Reb Moishe wrote his thsuvah in 5714, milk was pure milk - no addittives. Now Vitamin A & D are added to milk and as such, would probably need a reliable hechsher, as the cheapest source of these is not kosher.

Another bubbeh mayseh. Vitamin D (which is often processed from shark liver) has been added to commercial milk since the 30's and is also added to cholov Yisroel milk. People, there can be no argument that commercial milk, what R' Moshe called "cholov hacompanies" is 100% Kosher without a hechser. But, as R'Moshe said, a baal nefesh should use cholov Yisroel. If you consider yourself a baal nefesh, great! use only cholov Yisroel. You may not, however, say or even think, that cholov hacompanies is not kosher.

79

 Sep 09, 2009 at 02:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
yudel Says:

I took a Lakewood yungerman to Reb Moshe 40 years ago, as I saw him using cholov akum. Reb Moshe asked the yungerman "mi hitir lichuh"? (who was matir it for you), The Yungerman answered "reb Moshe in the teshuvas" Reb Moshe said " I know what I wrote, in Lakewood? cholov yisroel is available, so no you can't use cholov akum.

BTW. All cholov akum (stam) in the USA is cholv treif. I spoke to Rav Eliyashev & Rav Wosner about it, they bithe said it's "ossur". Rav Eliyashev also said the one that is giving "HETEIRIM" is based on not knowing the correct facts, and CAN NOT BE RELIED UPON on any of the HETEIRIM. Rav Eliyashed stated further " A psak is based on the facts, those HETEIRIM are not based on the facts."

# 12 QUOTED REB MOSHE AS SAYING:
"mi hitir lichuh"? (who was matir it for you).

Something is fishy about this quote.
Reb Moshe never would said 'lichu'.
Reb Moshe would pronounce it "licho".

This is a re-created memory, and is inaccurate..

80

 Sep 09, 2009 at 03:00 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
yudel Says:

I took a Lakewood yungerman to Reb Moshe 40 years ago, as I saw him using cholov akum. Reb Moshe asked the yungerman "mi hitir lichuh"? (who was matir it for you), The Yungerman answered "reb Moshe in the teshuvas" Reb Moshe said " I know what I wrote, in Lakewood? cholov yisroel is available, so no you can't use cholov akum.

BTW. All cholov akum (stam) in the USA is cholv treif. I spoke to Rav Eliyashev & Rav Wosner about it, they bithe said it's "ossur". Rav Eliyashev also said the one that is giving "HETEIRIM" is based on not knowing the correct facts, and CAN NOT BE RELIED UPON on any of the HETEIRIM. Rav Eliyashed stated further " A psak is based on the facts, those HETEIRIM are not based on the facts."

how does Rav Eliashuv come to pasken for U.S. ? You try (any American Rav) give a psak for E.Yisroel & see their response. he is a true Gadol and posek but has no business to issue a psak for here. Let him keep his nose in E.Yisroel and comment rather on all gneivishe shtik that are perpetrated there by his fellow frummies.

81

 Sep 09, 2009 at 02:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #42  
Anonymous Says:

Nice how people invent halachos, to justify their superiority on minutae. Keep all 613 mitzvahs better. To be kosher, milk needs to be from an animal that is a kosher breed. Not an animal that (individually) is certified kosher itself. No animal is certified kosher until it is killed ! Your statement has no basis nor logic.
A camel that is milked - the milk is treif.
A cow that is milked - the milk is kosher.
You can debate levels of supervision (i.e. cholov stam vs. yisrael) all you want - but the milk which is 100% from a cow is kosher; end of story.

You should talk to your local orthodox rabbi. And maybe set up a study program in Yoreh Deah

82

 Sep 09, 2009 at 02:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #79  
Anonymous Says:

# 12 QUOTED REB MOSHE AS SAYING:
"mi hitir lichuh"? (who was matir it for you).

Something is fishy about this quote.
Reb Moshe never would said 'lichu'.
Reb Moshe would pronounce it "licho".

This is a re-created memory, and is inaccurate..

another shtus. R'moshe specifically said that there is no such thing as cholov akum in the USA, as plainly stated in his tshuvas. Hence, the recounting of the tale of him rebuking a lakewood man for drinking "regular" milk is not only contrary to his own psak, it is absurd. So yes, the whole story is not just "re-created memory", it is "created memory" altogether.

83

 Sep 09, 2009 at 03:04 PM Anonymous Says:

From the fine article: "as subject to US laws, was one hundred percent guaranteed to be from cows."

R. Moshe specifically does not say this. He says that even though a small farmer may adulterate the milk with non-Kosher milk, when it is mixed in with the larger milk supply it is still botul. He then goes into a whole pillpul to justify why this is still considered "anan sahdi" (we are witnesses) that the milk is Kosher (basically in once line, because it gets the status later, when the non-Kosher milk would already be botul).

The article is a caricature of R. Moshe's psokim complete with spin to make people happy about relying on the heter. If people care, instead of debating it on the internet, pull out the seforim and read them.

Except for the last Teshuva (published after his death) they are very clear: A Ba'al Nefesh shouldn't eat it, and should kasher from it, and Yeshivas should spend more for it, even significantly more, as that is part and parcel of their purpose. (In other words, children should be raised to drink only Cholov Yisroel). But someone who does is not relying on some b'edieved shvach heter. They are on solid Halachic ground (that is what he says).

Regarding the last Teshuva, it says he was talking Be'Shas Hadchak, and then the printer injects a whole paragraph about how that wasn't actually what the Teshuvas said. What to make of it? It shouldn't really change anything over and above the Ba'al Nefesh statements in the previous Teshuvas. Did he change his mind? Were the previous Teshuvas meant more in a subtext where getting Cholov Yisroel was so hard in America that it was self evidently BeShas Hadchak, and the Ba'al Nefesh should be machmir even BeShaas Hadchak? That is left for the rest of us to look into.

A Ba'al Nefesh is someone who regards matters of the soul as more important that matters of the body. This Elul lets all strive to reach that level, regardless of reliance on any particular heter.

84

 Sep 09, 2009 at 03:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #72  
Experianced mashgiach Says:

It is a known scientific fact that even acouple of drops of milk from a chazir will stop thousands of litres of cows milk turning sour.
This is done in USA by farms which are a long distance from the tanker bases, and the collection tankers break down or are held up by bad weather.
If they would not do this the milk would sour and they would lose many, many $'s.

ooh, not only an "experianced mashgiach" (sic) but a snake-oil expert too... the magical "acouple of drops of milk from a chazir will stop thousands of litres of cows milk turning sour" is not only profound - it is a revelation ! You should patent this and be nominated for a Nobel Prize in chemistry for this amazing discovery !

oh, wait - you can't patent it because you say that "this is done in USA by farms which are a long distance from the tanker bases and the collection tankers break down or are held up by bad weather. If they would not do this the milk would sour and they would lose many, many $'s" (sic). Wow - so this is a common practice that all farms have one pig that is milked especially for its magical "couple of drops" in each thousands of liters so that no milk will ever spoil?

Amazing !

Either this is a purim joke, six months early - or you have been smoking something with a "special hashgocho"...

No dairy farms in the USA milk any pigs, nor horses, nor camels, nor other non-kosher species. This is in violation of USDA regulations and FDA licensing... The only animals approved for commercial milk production are cows, sheep, goats, and (in one New England farm only) buffalo (which are also kosher).

85

 Sep 09, 2009 at 03:08 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #72  
Experianced mashgiach Says:

It is a known scientific fact that even acouple of drops of milk from a chazir will stop thousands of litres of cows milk turning sour.
This is done in USA by farms which are a long distance from the tanker bases, and the collection tankers break down or are held up by bad weather.
If they would not do this the milk would sour and they would lose many, many $'s.

Is'nt that botel bshishim?

86

 Sep 09, 2009 at 03:06 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

the big lie....

no one ever talks about the other letter from r moshe where he said he was never matir choluv stam, and he was talking about bishas hadchak ONLY.

i heard from one of his talmidim when he asked why he allowed cholov stam he answered him
" Ah tshuvah hypet zich on fun der datum" which means you have to look at the TIME ans WHY
And it was not a heter for tcb yougert or Hershey kisses Vechulu

87

 Sep 09, 2009 at 02:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #33  
berel Says:

#3 can you refer to reliable sources. i talk a lot with a rov that was close to the chazon ish.he didnt hear of such psak.

See chazon ish yoreh deah siman 41 os 4. Its as clear as day. If you talk to the biney brakeres theyll hee and haw and try twisting his words, but its absolutely clear that he permitted it.
To all the people with these kabbalaistc timtum halev stuff. Firstly, the gemara clearly states "aveirah metamtemes es halev" that goes for any aveirah, don' t know what the excitement is with chalav stam. Secondly, you're all missing the point. Rav Moshe did not c'v give a heter on chalav akum, he paskened that milk of a goy in the U.S. is NOT CONSIDERED CHALAV AKUM BUT CHALAV YISROEL. So the issue of chalav akum being metamtem is totally irellevent.

88

 Sep 09, 2009 at 02:42 PM Aharonhacohen Says:

More machlokes? i would think people have better things to do than sit at a computer arguing about something that won't help them with their lives! And Especialy a week before Rosh HaShana!Ksiva vachasima tova.

89

 Sep 09, 2009 at 03:09 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
Anonymous Says:

The basic problem with rabbi feinstiens ruling is that it is based on incorect information provided to him at the time. No goverment or regulatory body exits to verify whether the milk is cows milk or not. No law exists against mixing cow milk with any other milk whilst its not common and not practical the concept of' mirtas'is not plain not in picture. You will never see on a milk bottle 100 pc cows milk the dairys can leagaly do watever they want,in addition, the problem problem of surgeries done on cows is a real problem

why do sooo many posters bring uop the issue with surgery on the cows? that problem was discovered by R. Ch. Kohn ten years ago (or longer) and has been rectified since.

90

 Sep 09, 2009 at 03:13 PM Anonymous Says:

r' moshe's psok is not nogayah to day becouse: the usda dose not test the milk proteins any more theOU is working of a new heter from r' belsky which is a dochek! (these facts can b verefied @ the ou) r' moshe's heter was based on 'mirsus' that becouse te gov. has a law the 'milk' orher the from a cow is mislableing "&" the (the gov.)check up on it (test)the corp. be fined so they are scered. BUT the gov. (usda) has a bunch of test but NOT if its cow milk .! so the heter is off

91

 Sep 09, 2009 at 02:14 PM oy, give me a break! Says:

This way, that way, eat what you want, just dont try to dress it up as Halacha. In most cases, it is pure laziness, and the desire to eat M&M, and other yummy things that drives the you to eat chalav akum.

So, lets call a spade a spade - just dont dress up your lust and laziness as Torah. Just eat it, drink it, and shut up. As for me, its chalav yisroel ONLY, please. (Not so difficult to do-so stop whining) Thanks!

92

 Sep 09, 2009 at 03:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #54  
Anonymous Says:

Sure, rabbi #45. Lots of things sound nice. Reality and halacha is another thing.

Everyone keeps saying "it says in the shulchan oruch" or "mesechta avoda zara says you need cholov yisrael". All correct - no dispute. But did you READ either (or both) of those to see what "cholov yisrael" means?
Read Shulchan Oruch, Yoreh Deyah 115:1
Read Avoda Zarah daf 35 amud beis
Both places teach us that:
"Milk is only permissible when a Yisroel watches the milking, verifying that milk from non-kosher animal species is not incorporated"

So the milk has to be from a cow. finished. end of story. It's "kosher species" not "a kosher certified animal" (which only happens after they are shechted - but that logic fails you too)...

You can choose to be machmir on whatever you want. Heck, you can decide that unless your shirt has red on it, for the ayin horah, you won't wear it. Great. We're happy for you. But milk that comes 100% from a cow is 100% kosher and (if it is verified that they are all cows) cholov yisrael.

Nobody cares what is the personal situation of each cow, or how happy they are, or what color their eyes are either. Kosher is kosher - don't invent your personal preferences as new halachas.

Yoreh Deah does not end with the few simonim you address. The issue of Yotzeh min Hatreifa is a relatively new issue in regard to milk as there are recently new procedures such as stapling eg. which the various kashrus organizations have different opinions. May the consumer beware

93

 Sep 09, 2009 at 03:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
R moshe Says:

R moshe was very Makpid on cholov yisroel
ask his children & talmidim

Do you no this for a fact? Or are you just assuming?

94

 Sep 09, 2009 at 03:56 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #72  
Experianced mashgiach Says:

It is a known scientific fact that even acouple of drops of milk from a chazir will stop thousands of litres of cows milk turning sour.
This is done in USA by farms which are a long distance from the tanker bases, and the collection tankers break down or are held up by bad weather.
If they would not do this the milk would sour and they would lose many, many $'s.

This is such shtuss it is hillarious.
Or scary, if you actually believe it - like the blood libels of medieval europe...

a couple of drops of goyish children's blood in the wine makes a perfect pessach seder. May hashem have mercy on us all, with these kind of nutjobs roaming around...

95

 Sep 09, 2009 at 03:54 PM Former chalav yisroel drinker Says:

I used to drink Chalav Yisroel till I began to realise that chalav yisroel is a gezera d'rabanan. lo Signov, stealin, is min haTorah. I refuse to be ripped off by the Cholov Yisroel companies that charge a supreme price for an inferior product . And their milk goes sour in two days.

96

 Sep 09, 2009 at 03:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #68  
Orthowatch Says:

People can argue all they want. The fact is, R' Moshe and now R' Belsky both said it is permissible to drink the milk. You may think you know better, so do what you want. Don't try to tell me I'm doing something wrong.
As for the cows undergoing the procedure to release the gas from their stomach: R' Belsky said that it doesn't make them a treifah. The reason is that he personally observed that these cows live for well over a year after the procedure. A treifah, by definition, is an animal which will die within a year. When a cow, after shechitah, is found with a hole in its lung, we assume it would have died within a year, which is what makes it a treifah. These cows live past that, so they are kosher.

This is a major discussion in the earlier Poskim. I'm surprized to hear that Rabbi Belsky took that side of the issue. Does he allow these animals to be eaten?? That was the issue last year with the South American meats.
I believe you err. The question is really if this procedure is actually done in the US but rather something else that wouldn't render treif.
The real issue is stapling which puncture and then simultaneously fills the puncture.

97

 Sep 09, 2009 at 04:06 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
halocho Says:

Debretziner Rav said OSUR
Many times workers put in diffrent milk mixed in

milk from a foreign country? or do they keep pigs or camels at home, milk them and bring the milk in to mix in with the cow's milk?

98

 Sep 09, 2009 at 04:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

I suggest Rabbi Billet read the Mishnah breurah where he encoreges ppl in tishray to be machmir

there is no such mishna breurah. sorry best of luck finding it

99

 Sep 09, 2009 at 04:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #95  
Former chalav yisroel drinker Says:

I used to drink Chalav Yisroel till I began to realise that chalav yisroel is a gezera d'rabanan. lo Signov, stealin, is min haTorah. I refuse to be ripped off by the Cholov Yisroel companies that charge a supreme price for an inferior product . And their milk goes sour in two days.

Try soy milk then

100

 Sep 09, 2009 at 04:19 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
Anonymous Says:

for all those who want to drink cholov stam go ahead do it it is kosher however it is not accepted by everyone however do not lecture us cholov yisroel drinkers. while you feel it is important to spend $1,000 s of dollars on plasma tv's I feel like spending it on cholv yisroel.

And yet there YOU are, lecturing to people who don't drink cholov yisroel. Do as you say and don't be a hypocrite.

101

 Sep 09, 2009 at 03:53 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #92  
Anonymous Says:

Yoreh Deah does not end with the few simonim you address. The issue of Yotzeh min Hatreifa is a relatively new issue in regard to milk as there are recently new procedures such as stapling eg. which the various kashrus organizations have different opinions. May the consumer beware

oy vey. maybe look at number 52 or 68 or 89 to correct your misunderstanding of what the issues are (or aren't).

too many ehliche rabbis have ruled that this is a non-issue and a misconception.

too many people here have tried to educate those unfortunate people who still don't understand a half-sentence that they overheard in a shiur they were falling asleep in and decided they know a new halacha.

This has no bearing on cholov yisroel, nor on rav moshe, nor on the relevance of your stapling idea (which isn't done in this country for years, nor does it have a halachic ramification even if it was).

A little information falling into the wrong hands is not only confusing to others, it is the source of an unfair accusation.

102

 Sep 09, 2009 at 03:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #85  
Anonymous Says:

Is'nt that botel bshishim?

If it were true (that is a huge if, even if it is true in small quantities of a small farmer, it doesn't really scale up as a solution for large milk production - refrigeration works much better) it would not necessarily be Botel in any quantity because of its purpose (it preserves all the milk).

But I don't think its true. There are enough reasons to insist on Cholov Yisroel (The poskim who disagree with R. Moshe, the opinions in Halacha that R. Moshe doesn't pasken like to create his heter, the statement of R. Moshe himself that Ba'al Nefesh should be machmir, and even Kasher from the milk he gives a heter on (which is really huge when you think about it - you don't kasher over chumra issues), and more.

It is interesting that some people are so bothered by the fact that people don't rely on the heter. That is worth exploring in an article.

103

 Sep 09, 2009 at 03:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #89  
Anonymous Says:

why do sooo many posters bring uop the issue with surgery on the cows? that problem was discovered by R. Ch. Kohn ten years ago (or longer) and has been rectified since.

Rectified? The surgery is still performed. Farmers disagree about its effectiveness and usefulness, so some use it, some don't, but it is still a problem that is constantly monitored among Cholov Yisroel producers. What changed was that now Kashrus organizations are aware of the problem and know how to deal with it. That is why it is "rectified."

For Cholov Stam, basically it is regarded as botul.

104

 Sep 09, 2009 at 03:24 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #81  
Anonymous Says:

You should talk to your local orthodox rabbi. And maybe set up a study program in Yoreh Deah

I think it is you who should attend the Yoreh De'ah lecture. And to help you along (since you seem to never have read shulchan oruch) it's y.d.115:1 What part of "Milk is only mutar when a Yisroel watches the milking, verifying that milk from non-kosher animal species is not incorporated" do you misunderstand here?
milk from 100% cows, and supervised by a jew to be from 100% cows is 100% cholov yisrael.

105

 Sep 09, 2009 at 03:17 PM Shailahs Says:

What is the cow surgery that is mentioned above? Also, what about the issue of cloned cows? What about gene therapy where genes are swapped into a cow breed to enhance milk production? What about steroids and antibiotic medicines added to cow food?

106

 Sep 09, 2009 at 02:14 PM Anonymous Says:

After reading 60 postings, there is obviously a difference of opinion as to how the views of several of our gadolim should be interpreted. The bottom line is that those who want to be machmir as well as those who have easy access to quality cholov yisroel should purchase it, but for the majority of yidden who are already struggle to meet the financial burdens of chinuch at a yeshiva or day school and the high cost of kosher food, aside from the all the other issues in today's economy, chalav yisroel will not be the highest priority. I'm sure there will be some who will say we cannot choose which mitzvot to follow and all are of the SAME priority; those who say that obviously don't have to live with the reality of limited financial resources.

107

 Sep 09, 2009 at 04:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #36  
safe side Says:

Firstly it is mentioned above that everything said by Rav Moshe Feinstein is in regards to U.S.A. other countries however do not have the same regulations. REASONS TO BE STRICT IN CHALAV YISRAOEL: Drinking non kosher milk is a transgression of the code of Jewish law, and it is brought down in kabala that consuming non kosher food has a negative effect on the mind and heart of the Jew who consumes it, causing what’s known as “Timtum halev v’hamoach”-contamination of the heart and mind, and as brought down in many places it also bring to “doubts in ones beliefs of Hashem”. I would expect that most G-d fearing individuals would not want to drink something that may even in the smallest possibility effect them in such a negative spiritual way. The questioned is, is it possible that some non kosher milk may end up in your body? The answer is yes, although it is logically very possible and likely that you are drinking Kosher milk never the less you have to ask yourself the question: If you knew that there was even the smallest possibility that what you were about to drink may have some poison in it and it may have a fatal effect on you, WOULD YOU DRINK IT? Or would you rather be on the safer side?

First of all, no one is talking about non-kosher anything. The discussion is about milk, which is kosher in the USA because the milk produced by large dairy farms here is from a cow. And for the reasons discussed in the article it would be beyond belief to think that these dairy farms are sneaking in milk from other animals. It would be prohibitively more expensive (anyone know of several million camels sitting around waiting to be milked on some secret site someplace in the USA?), plus these large dairy farms are supposed to be monitored by the US government.

Secondly, you can't live wondering about the infinite possibilities of what could happen. Someone at a cholov yisroel processing plant could accidentally drop something treif that gets mixed in with the milk/cheese/whatever. We'll never know, does that mean you shouldn't drink/eat the product? Because there's a possibility that someone might do something accidentally? By the same token, if milk is kosher but not cholov yisroel you can't sit there and think up every possibility under the world that would render the milk non-kosher. Stop using these scare tactics, they're utter nonsense.

108

 Sep 09, 2009 at 04:36 PM formally Says:

Reply to #105  
Shailahs Says:

What is the cow surgery that is mentioned above? Also, what about the issue of cloned cows? What about gene therapy where genes are swapped into a cow breed to enhance milk production? What about steroids and antibiotic medicines added to cow food?

what now are you going to want yhicas on cows.

cows can it what they want if the eat pig they are still kosher to eat

109

 Sep 09, 2009 at 04:33 PM formally Says:

the people who are arguing that it mist be cholev yisreol are not trying to convince the others they are trying to convince themselves why they are doing something that is not necessary according to halacha

110

 Sep 09, 2009 at 04:33 PM Wine Anyone? Says:

If a non Jew made wine and you know him to be an atheist so there is no worry about his thoughts of "avoda zara", would that make it permissible?

111

 Sep 09, 2009 at 04:32 PM formally Says:

Reply to #72  
Experianced mashgiach Says:

It is a known scientific fact that even acouple of drops of milk from a chazir will stop thousands of litres of cows milk turning sour.
This is done in USA by farms which are a long distance from the tanker bases, and the collection tankers break down or are held up by bad weather.
If they would not do this the milk would sour and they would lose many, many $'s.

please provide link to this study since only you heard about it

PS all trucks that deliver milk or meat has a computer attached to it or on it that that measures the temperature of the milk on a continual basis, and knows the amount of time it took to deliver the product.

If it took to long or if the temperature went above a given temperature the milk cannot be sold for human consumption.

Like a mashgich but it is awake the whole time

112

 Sep 09, 2009 at 04:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #32  
Anonymous Says:

You may be wasting your tuition money entirely if there are Kashrus issues. A better hechsher means a "better hechsher" which in itself infers that the lower valued hechsherim leave suitability questionable. Eating Tarfus is the main cause for children going off the derech in these generations. See Aruch Hashulchan.
Thus, alternately, as we are seeing a major increase of "kids at risk", we ought to wonder if our kashrus is culpable

Cause and effect is an interesting concept. 50 years ago, when cholov yisroel was considerably more difficult to find, more people ate cholov stam and we didn't end up off the derech. My generation became more right wing and the kosher food industry boomed and our children grew up with only cholov yisroel in the house...and yet there are considerably more children off the derech now than there were 30-40 years ago. Therefore, your theory doesn't hold water.

113

 Sep 09, 2009 at 02:08 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:

Reply to #72  
Experianced mashgiach Says:

It is a known scientific fact that even acouple of drops of milk from a chazir will stop thousands of litres of cows milk turning sour.
This is done in USA by farms which are a long distance from the tanker bases, and the collection tankers break down or are held up by bad weather.
If they would not do this the milk would sour and they would lose many, many $'s.

This is absolutely and completely false. I don't know where you heard this "known scientific fact" but it is utterly false. Milk is refrigerated straight as it comes from the cow and and held in refrigerated tanks at the dairy. It is then transported in refrigerated tankers to the bottling plant. adding pig's milk will not keep cow's milk, or any other milk from spoiling, even if you could milk a pig, which you can't. Based on your diplay of ignorance, I certainly would not eat from your hashgacha.

114

 Sep 09, 2009 at 02:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #72  
Experianced mashgiach Says:

It is a known scientific fact that even acouple of drops of milk from a chazir will stop thousands of litres of cows milk turning sour.
This is done in USA by farms which are a long distance from the tanker bases, and the collection tankers break down or are held up by bad weather.
If they would not do this the milk would sour and they would lose many, many $'s.

no it's not, mad scientist. which lab did you study in?

Nothing like this is done in the USA either.

115

 Sep 09, 2009 at 02:05 PM Anonymous Says:

lets be real those that use the "heter' because of tough econmic times are the flatbush and five towns modern orthodox who drive lexus and live in 2 million dollar homes, while taking birth control in order not to pay too much tuition. they want a snikers bar and their looking for a green light end of story.

116

 Sep 09, 2009 at 02:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #64  
berel Says:

yasher koach will look iy'hs

if it helps - the exact reference is Chazon Ish, Yoreh Deyah, 41:4.

And another thing (to clarify to some of the more vociferous people here) - look at Iggros Moshe YD 1:47-49, where he says that "all milk in the United States has the halachic status of cholov yisroel as all dairy factories have mirsas and we can be certain with anan sahadei that their milk is 100% from cows".

Also, with regard to products made from unsupervised milk (like the poster who said that you need to kasher your keilim if they ever touched milk without a "cholov yisroel" symbol on the package: The Rambam (hilchos maachalos asuros, 3:16) paskens that butter made by unsupervised milk is kosher, and also that cheese which is made under hashgacha (but which uses non-supervised milk to make the cheese) is considered Cholov Yisroel cheese...

117

 Sep 09, 2009 at 02:01 PM yb Says:

R' Moshe ztz"l also says that if one drink cholov yisroel thinking that it is more kosher he is mistaekn and need not be matir neder to drink cholov stam.

118

 Sep 09, 2009 at 04:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #46  
berel Says:

#28 ' those who dont have tv'?? are you sure you knew what you wrote?TV? vu kumt a TV in a ehrliche torah shtube? and if yes, chalav akum is least of thier problems, besides such homes couldnt care less what milk they have.

Oh, berel, berel, how I knew you'd be here with your unique pov. And that you'd belittle millions of frum Jews who keep strictly kosher all because they have TV sets. It must be exhausting for you to be better than everyone else. Go, take a rest, and maybe your medication.

119

 Sep 09, 2009 at 04:49 PM Get this man a tinfoil hat Says:

Reply to #24  
Anonymous Says:

The basic problem with rabbi feinstiens ruling is that it is based on incorect information provided to him at the time. No goverment or regulatory body exits to verify whether the milk is cows milk or not. No law exists against mixing cow milk with any other milk whilst its not common and not practical the concept of' mirtas'is not plain not in picture. You will never see on a milk bottle 100 pc cows milk the dairys can leagaly do watever they want,in addition, the problem problem of surgeries done on cows is a real problem

Not only you anonymous but you're clearly nuts.

120

 Sep 09, 2009 at 04:48 PM Michoel in London Says:

I have read about 50% of the posts and I had not noticed in any of them any mention of another important factor that might determine one's decision to consume CY exclusively; it is that according to the hidden part of torah, Kiblah or Chassidus if you wish, drinking non CY "meivi sfeikos b'emunoh" which translates roughly into "bring doubts in faith" and it's simply a price most of the pious jews would rather not pay. Another problem that I think was not mentioned is that apart from the fact that government rarely actually inspects the dairies for milk sourced from other animals, I have spoken to a farmer in France who told me that whenever he has extra sows milk (female pig) he would simply add it to the regular cow's milk. I asked him about being caught and he simply said that the government agencies only test for fat content and that the above milks percentage is higher than regular cows milk, and if anything not only that it would pass undetected, he would be supplying a milk of higher grade.

121

 Sep 09, 2009 at 04:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #42  
Anonymous Says:

Nice how people invent halachos, to justify their superiority on minutae. Keep all 613 mitzvahs better. To be kosher, milk needs to be from an animal that is a kosher breed. Not an animal that (individually) is certified kosher itself. No animal is certified kosher until it is killed ! Your statement has no basis nor logic.
A camel that is milked - the milk is treif.
A cow that is milked - the milk is kosher.
You can debate levels of supervision (i.e. cholov stam vs. yisrael) all you want - but the milk which is 100% from a cow is kosher; end of story.

Thank you! The voice of reason. However, I'm sure as I continue to read the rest of these comments there'll be someone who comes along and tries to stomp on you. Still, it's always nice to see that someone appreciates your point of view.

122

 Sep 09, 2009 at 04:45 PM eb Says:

I drink regular milk. I don't buy cholov yisroel because we think it spoils earlier and is purposefully dated incorrectly. This has been others' observation as well. Why should I support that. A bal nefesh should date his milk correctly. Incidentally, far too many people are concerned about being a real bal nefesh. How do you know you're big enough to be a bal nefesh? Oh, it must be because you drink cholov yisroel. So what are you if you drink some cholov yisroel milk on shabbos while crossing ocean parkway from borough park coming from your section 8 house that you "rent" .

123

 Sep 09, 2009 at 04:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #74  
Anonymous Says:

I have no intention of harassing you for buying CY milk or learning in kollel or having a large family. Just don't ask me to pay for it.

I can understand that you won't pay for CY milk,but why not for Kolel or a large family. Don't you think that Kolelim deserve our support . Don't you believe that the Lomdei Torah are the ones keeping everything going? If someone has a large family K'A"H and needs help supporting them or marrying them,don't you believe that as Jews and brothers we are responsible for one another and if asked for assistance than we should provide it based on your abilty. Why do we have to be so selfish and only think about ourselves? Where is our Ahavas Yisroel. May we all be zocheh to a K'sivah V'chasimah Tova.

124

 Sep 09, 2009 at 05:31 PM michali Says:

Reply to #49  
Anonymous Says:

This is one of the most well thought out and clearly articulated summaries of Reb Moishe's position I have ever read. Very well done. The bottom line for most of us is that if cholov yisroel of reasonably good quality (in terms fo spoilage and shelf life) is available, even at a slight cost premium to regular milk and milk products, we should try to use those products we should do so. Where either the product is not readily available at good quality or at reasonable cost (i.e. priced excessively above regular milk) a heimeshe yid can safely drink regular milk without any feeling that he is bein oyver a major lav or not being shomer halacaha. If one wishes to be machmir and pay the additional cost or drive an hour or two to obtain fresh chalav yisroel, there will be some zchus for the being so dilligent. In the scheme of things, if there are tradeoffs that have to be made (i.e. buying meat with a better hashgacha versus buying cholov yisroel, the choice is easy.).

From what I understood of Rav Moshe's t'shuva, if it is difficult for a yid to obtain milk because of distance, it is permissible to drink cholov stam, however, not because of expense. Expense should not be an excuse for not buying cholov yisroel milk.

125

 Sep 09, 2009 at 05:32 PM Visitor Says:

I was once zocha to be in Rav Moshe's home on the lower east side. I brought the former Rov of Kfar Chabad for a visit. Reb. Moshe's Rebbetzin brought cake and coffe in the dining room and the milk served was CHOLOV YISROEL.
This is a maysa Rav that he used only Cholov Yisroel and we should not look for heterim to use cholov stam. Especially when Kabballa speaks very negatively about using cholov akum.

126

 Sep 09, 2009 at 05:57 PM H'gaon Says:

Reply to #3  
FRUM BUT NORMAL Says:

even the CHAZON ISH z'l who was a known to be a MACHMIR in halacha,rules that in our times when the government has strict rules in forbiding any other milk but cow milk,there is absolutely no ISSUR in CHOLOV STAM

FYI - there is no such Chazon Ish !! The only milk" he considered is 'powdered milk' and for total diff. reasons i.e. panim chadashot' see Yoreh deah..In fact I recall in his yalmid 'aznoei Yehoshua' mentions that Rav Moshe Soloveitchick (Switzerland)asked ones the Chazon ish about that heter and that it was metioned in his name that he's matir..he was upset by that and responded something to the affect that whats next they going to say I'm matir 'chilul shabbat!

127

 Sep 09, 2009 at 06:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #42  
Anonymous Says:

Nice how people invent halachos, to justify their superiority on minutae. Keep all 613 mitzvahs better. To be kosher, milk needs to be from an animal that is a kosher breed. Not an animal that (individually) is certified kosher itself. No animal is certified kosher until it is killed ! Your statement has no basis nor logic.
A camel that is milked - the milk is treif.
A cow that is milked - the milk is kosher.
You can debate levels of supervision (i.e. cholov stam vs. yisrael) all you want - but the milk which is 100% from a cow is kosher; end of story.

wow so who is inventing haluchoes? I hope u don't give hechsheirim or paskin sheiloes ! go learn and u will know. u are totally WRONG

128

 Sep 09, 2009 at 05:51 PM Anonymous Says:

As a mashgiach for Chalav Yisroel Milk, I find a bunch of these posts absurd including the one about a few drops of nonkosher milk causing a whole vat of milk from becoming sour. I cannot write about Rabbi Moshe Fienstiens teshuvos because I have never looked into them in detail.

All Kosher milk by definition is not homogeneous. This means that the protein will separate from the fat if it sits for a given time. Non Kosher milk is homogeneous which means the protein in the milk and the fat do not repel each other and they both can stay suspended in the liquid without separating. Before the time of agitators (basically a mixer that agitates the milk and keeps it from separating) and homogenizing agents.(a substance that keeps two parts of a solution from separating) Kosher milk after a number of hours would separate. The cream or fat rises to the top and the protein is on bottom similar to how oil floats on top of water.

Using this information one cannot make butter from non Kosher milk. One makes butter by skimming (the days before separators) the milk or separating the fat from the protein. One takes this cream and churns it (basically mixes it) until it becomes firmer. This is what we call butter. If one took non kosher milk and let it sit, the fat will not rise to the top. Even if someone put non kosher milk into a separator they would not get the cream out.

Understanding this, will help people understand why a farmer might want to mix nonkosher milk into kosher milk. If by some odd chance the farmer does not have a agitator (they all do now) and he wants to bottle his milk (most send their milk to a bottling plant) he would need a homogenizing agent to keep his milk from separating. Non kosher milk can be used as a homogenizing agent.

To the people that talk about testing milk and that the USDA does not test for non kosher milk.......

The farmer has a number of incentives to keep his milk pure. First, it would not be cost effective for him to milk any other animal than the one he currently milks. All of his machinery is set up to milk only cows. It also would not be cost effective for him to buy non kosher milk add it to his cow milk and then resell the whole amount as cow milk. Any other milk besides cows are a lot more expensive and he would be shooting himself in the foot by doing this.
Two, if the bottling company wants to separate the milk to make skim milk and the farmer added a homogenizing (including non kosher milk) agent, the bottling company would realize immediately.
Three, The usda does spot checks on all farms to make sure they comply with all regulations. Even if a toilet is broken they will get cited! Why would the farmer risk his whole business to milk non kosher animals and prop it up as cow milk. (this is besides the cost factor)

These comments have nothing to do with the Treif factor because R. Moshe's heter does not refer to this. Nor does this talk about Gevinas Yisroel which is a completely different issue.

129

 Sep 09, 2009 at 05:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #120  
Michoel in London Says:

I have read about 50% of the posts and I had not noticed in any of them any mention of another important factor that might determine one's decision to consume CY exclusively; it is that according to the hidden part of torah, Kiblah or Chassidus if you wish, drinking non CY "meivi sfeikos b'emunoh" which translates roughly into "bring doubts in faith" and it's simply a price most of the pious jews would rather not pay. Another problem that I think was not mentioned is that apart from the fact that government rarely actually inspects the dairies for milk sourced from other animals, I have spoken to a farmer in France who told me that whenever he has extra sows milk (female pig) he would simply add it to the regular cow's milk. I asked him about being caught and he simply said that the government agencies only test for fat content and that the above milks percentage is higher than regular cows milk, and if anything not only that it would pass undetected, he would be supplying a milk of higher grade.

With all due respect, the article and discussion here is purely about the dairy farms in the USA. The US government, through several of its agencies monitor the dairy farms and only kosher animals (and by an overwhelmingly number these animals are cows) are used to produce milk in the US. The US government has no jurisdiction over that farmer in France you mention, and I'm pretty certain R' Moshe wasn't talking about France or any country except for the USA when discussing this topic.

130

 Sep 09, 2009 at 05:25 PM Get this man a tinfoil hat Says:

Reply to #120  
Michoel in London Says:

I have read about 50% of the posts and I had not noticed in any of them any mention of another important factor that might determine one's decision to consume CY exclusively; it is that according to the hidden part of torah, Kiblah or Chassidus if you wish, drinking non CY "meivi sfeikos b'emunoh" which translates roughly into "bring doubts in faith" and it's simply a price most of the pious jews would rather not pay. Another problem that I think was not mentioned is that apart from the fact that government rarely actually inspects the dairies for milk sourced from other animals, I have spoken to a farmer in France who told me that whenever he has extra sows milk (female pig) he would simply add it to the regular cow's milk. I asked him about being caught and he simply said that the government agencies only test for fat content and that the above milks percentage is higher than regular cows milk, and if anything not only that it would pass undetected, he would be supplying a milk of higher grade.

Well, Michoel. It sounds like you have a real problem, particularly when you travel to France. Try soy milk. Or, better, don't travel to France. Luckily, here in the U.S. (which is the locale about which this ENTIRE conversation is about), R' Moshe (and many, many, many other rabbonim and kashrus agencies) felt that such scenarios were not a practical concern.

131

 Sep 09, 2009 at 07:29 PM H'gaon Says:

Reply to #122  
eb Says:

I drink regular milk. I don't buy cholov yisroel because we think it spoils earlier and is purposefully dated incorrectly. This has been others' observation as well. Why should I support that. A bal nefesh should date his milk correctly. Incidentally, far too many people are concerned about being a real bal nefesh. How do you know you're big enough to be a bal nefesh? Oh, it must be because you drink cholov yisroel. So what are you if you drink some cholov yisroel milk on shabbos while crossing ocean parkway from borough park coming from your section 8 house that you "rent" .

That is precisely your perception taking Rav Moshe as the ONLY POSEK that ever lived..In fact Yes! he's The only posek to pasken so...no other posek including the Chazon Ish ever agreed so..(even though that in concept the C"I thought about it but le'halacha he clearly never agreed to the heter)Hence accepting the Chasam Sofer's final Psak over Rav Moshe does not require to be a baa'l nefesh" its ONLY according to Rav Moshe that its a baal nefesh issue. As with carriying Yep even if Rav Moshe would pasken aser, it again not relevent when he clearly argues with the Magen Avrohom and other posim incl. the Aruch Hashulchan, etc. And so is it with shaving, hazroeh melachtit, etc. He may be Godal hador-- but we never accepted him as an absolut given 'halachah kmoso be'CHOL mokom" per se!

132

 Sep 09, 2009 at 08:04 PM Berel Says:

To all the folks here who condemn the practice of not being makpid on CY: Are you makpid on yoshon and chodosh? Eating foods with even an echad b'elef ta'aroves of chodosh grain grown even in chu"l is an issur d'oraisa according to most poskim. The Rema's kula about sfek sfeika, which was never even accepted by most poskim in the first place, is no longer applicable in cases of processed foods since it is a safeik which is possible to be mevarer.

(By the way, many people who think that they are being makpid on yoshon, in fact eat taarovos of chodosh all the time. There are lots of non-mezonos foods that contain chodosh ingredients or are contaminated with chodosh ingredients that were processed on the same line. Again, the large majority of poskim would call it an issur d'oraisa to eat such a food.)

Cholov yisroel, on the other hand, never fully achieved the status of an established gezeira. Cholov yisroel used to be necessary not because of a gezeria - it was necessary due to an actual safeik d'oraisa. That safeik no longer exists. So now, acc. to R' Moshe zt"l, it is laudable but not necessary to be machmir (and he himself was machmir).

For out-of-towners, for example, it isn't always easy to get cholov yisroel. It can be difficult to be makpid under those conditions. Considering the strain that could have on one's family, d'oraisa bein adam lachaveiro issues might trump the chumra.

Consider that the next time you eat a delicious cholov yisroel cheese sandwich on chodosh bread.

133

 Sep 09, 2009 at 05:22 PM Get this man a tinfoil hat Says:

Reply to #115  
Anonymous Says:

lets be real those that use the "heter' because of tough econmic times are the flatbush and five towns modern orthodox who drive lexus and live in 2 million dollar homes, while taking birth control in order not to pay too much tuition. they want a snikers bar and their looking for a green light end of story.

Would you mind revealing your name? That way if G-d punishes you in some way for the horrific slander you just served up on two communities of Yirei Shomayim we'll all know why it happened and, maybe, someone else will think twice in the future before saying something like that. You'd be performing a real public service.

134

 Sep 09, 2009 at 09:08 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #7  
kosher milk Says:

today that the new shalo of Treifos came up
all milk without hechsher
is a sofek treifo
so Today every one holds you need a hechsher

It is not a problem since riev are not treifos and my rebbi asked a big pissik in flabush and he said it is not a problem.

135

 Sep 09, 2009 at 08:18 PM Ojoe Says:

"lets be real those that use the "heter' because of tough econmic times are the flatbush and five towns modern orthodox who drive lexus and live in 2 million dollar homes, while taking birth control in order not to pay too much tuition. they want a snikers bar and their looking for a green light end of story."

Wow, some serious sinas Chinam in Elul. Somehow people think that Jews only live in NY. Believe it or not, where I live a gallon of CY milk currently costs $9. Yes, NINE dollars for a gallon of CY milk. In this case it would be an AVLAH to encourage people not to drink regular milk which is perfectly kosher al pi Rav Moshe's psak because of the economic strain. However, I am tempted daily to add to my birchas Hashachar "Sheloy Asani New Yorker" (Actually I am from there, but moved away from this kind of shtus and sinah, Boruch Hashem).

There is such a terrible attitude swirling around in this board where if someone has a chumrah they feel that if anyone doesnt follow their own practices they must be a shaygetz, or not understand the "pnimius HaTorah" (those are mostly chabadskers who make that silly argument), or whatever other reason why perfectly frum yidden are shkotzim because they are not like you. This is besides the tidal wave of am haratzus by people who clearly know nothing about halacha, but feel it necessary to explain why people who follow the greatest posek of the last generation are leydegayers and lack yiras shomayim. What is worse is that these arguments show a great disrespect for R Moshe and his Torah.

I would rather drink 1000 gallons of Cholov Stam than have to answer for such sinah and kitrug when I get up to Shamayim.

136

 Sep 09, 2009 at 09:44 PM yudel Says:

All of the cholov akum in the USA is CHOLOV-TREIF. There isn't "shishim" in any of the farms for the vet procedured cows. The Ratio of treif cows in the USA is considerably higher than 1.66% of the herd. Reb Moshe was not addressing this issue at all.
Are you wondering why we are losing our kids to the streets?

137

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:08 PM Ojoe Says:

"Are you wondering why we are losing our kids to the streets?"

Nope. Not wondering. Not when people and communities treat other frum yidden like shkotzim and hold anyone who isnt like them to be treif. Their kids find out that they have to be clones of their parents and community or they are "bums" even if what they are doing is 100% lechatchila according to halacha. You went to bowling without your hat?! Bum! You went to bowling?! Bum! You ate a snickers bar?! Sheigitz! You were someych on a psak of one of the gedolei poskim?! Oisvorf! You wore a bobby pin in your yarmulke like those modernishe bums? Bum! A blue shirt?! Forget it, might as well eat pork!

Instead of "Chanoich Lenaar al pi Darkoi", its "Chanoch Lenaar al pi your derech which is the only true one in the whole world". Kids have no room to be themselves because they have to adopt every chumrah, shitoh, and mannerism of their rigid and unthinking parents.

Nebach on the kids. Nebach.

That is the #1 cause of kids going off. Cholov stam, not so much.

138

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #104  
Anonymous Says:

I think it is you who should attend the Yoreh De'ah lecture. And to help you along (since you seem to never have read shulchan oruch) it's y.d.115:1 What part of "Milk is only mutar when a Yisroel watches the milking, verifying that milk from non-kosher animal species is not incorporated" do you misunderstand here?
milk from 100% cows, and supervised by a jew to be from 100% cows is 100% cholov yisrael.

“ I think it is you who should attend the Yoreh De'ah lecture. And to help you along (since you seem to never have read shulchan oruch) it's y.d.115:1 What part of "Milk is only mutar when a Yisroel watches the milking, verifying that milk from non-kosher animal species is not incorporated" do you misunderstand here?
milk from 100% cows, and supervised by a jew to be from 100% cows is 100% cholov yisrael. ”
Yeah, and a number of simanim earlier, (I think it's simman 84:1, it says that milk from a treif animal is assur. We rely on rov (majority) to be mattir any milk. The rov in this case is that the majority of kosher types of animals are assumed to actually be kosher - physically kosher - until proven otherwise.
Nobody says that if you know an animal is a treifa, its milk is muttar. The question by cows is if these procedures actually make the cows halachically treif, in which case the milk is assur as well.
I'm no vet, and I'm not a possek either. I'm just stating the facts. But you are correct that these dinnim have nothing to do with cholov yisroel per se. They apply to ALL milk, and, according to some, could be a serious halachic problem, exclusive of any cholov yisroel issues.

139

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:09 PM berel Says:

Reply to #118  
Anonymous Says:

Oh, berel, berel, how I knew you'd be here with your unique pov. And that you'd belittle millions of frum Jews who keep strictly kosher all because they have TV sets. It must be exhausting for you to be better than everyone else. Go, take a rest, and maybe your medication.

unbelievable that one should be such a low level as to consider a tv in ones house as no consequence e at all, no problem whatsoever . do you know how many issurim deoirayso one is oiver . ahc un veih that you are on such a low rung . belittle? did i hit a raw nerve some where . yes we know you are such ball madreige you look only at nice clean consevative shows. lets say so (ha) and when commercials come around and they are , ahem, you dont look. so let me repeat if you have no problem with having such a kli tamai in your house you shouldnt have any problem with chaluv akim and probably worse,.and let us repeat the tzaddikim of previous generation (as if it had to be said)assured TV begader all 3 harbe aveiros and that includes the igros moshe .(oh this 'reb moshe' you probanly wont follow..mekilay bais shamai and mekilay bais hillel. harei zeh ....

140

 Sep 09, 2009 at 10:05 PM Hershel Says:

to # 132: yoshon versus cholov yisroel. in "inyan" you are correct that yoshon is a d'oraissa issue and cholov yisroel is a derabonon issue, but it is also a simple fact that for many many centuries and I think even more than thousand years the entire klal yisroel was makpid on cholov yisroel and was meikel to eat chodosh. so if someone is makpid on cholov yisroel and now adds on a new chumrah to be makpid on yoshon (because it's possible today etc.) that's very nice, but if someone is meikel in cholov stam (not out of need beshaas dchak, but out of taava to eat haagendasz icecream and the like), but preaches to be machmir in yoshon, something is fishy about that type of "new" yiddishkeit...

141

 Sep 09, 2009 at 09:56 PM yitzchok Says:

Reply to #131  
H'gaon Says:

That is precisely your perception taking Rav Moshe as the ONLY POSEK that ever lived..In fact Yes! he's The only posek to pasken so...no other posek including the Chazon Ish ever agreed so..(even though that in concept the C"I thought about it but le'halacha he clearly never agreed to the heter)Hence accepting the Chasam Sofer's final Psak over Rav Moshe does not require to be a baa'l nefesh" its ONLY according to Rav Moshe that its a baal nefesh issue. As with carriying Yep even if Rav Moshe would pasken aser, it again not relevent when he clearly argues with the Magen Avrohom and other posim incl. the Aruch Hashulchan, etc. And so is it with shaving, hazroeh melachtit, etc. He may be Godal hador-- but we never accepted him as an absolut given 'halachah kmoso be'CHOL mokom" per se!

yes, as you say, we follow the psak of the minchus yitzchak, shevet haleivy, etc. according to them hazroeh melachit is assur min hatorah, the same with mechitzah, chalav akum etc and many other psokim

142

 Sep 09, 2009 at 09:48 PM yitzchok Says:

Reply to #135  
Ojoe Says:

"lets be real those that use the "heter' because of tough econmic times are the flatbush and five towns modern orthodox who drive lexus and live in 2 million dollar homes, while taking birth control in order not to pay too much tuition. they want a snikers bar and their looking for a green light end of story."

Wow, some serious sinas Chinam in Elul. Somehow people think that Jews only live in NY. Believe it or not, where I live a gallon of CY milk currently costs $9. Yes, NINE dollars for a gallon of CY milk. In this case it would be an AVLAH to encourage people not to drink regular milk which is perfectly kosher al pi Rav Moshe's psak because of the economic strain. However, I am tempted daily to add to my birchas Hashachar "Sheloy Asani New Yorker" (Actually I am from there, but moved away from this kind of shtus and sinah, Boruch Hashem).

There is such a terrible attitude swirling around in this board where if someone has a chumrah they feel that if anyone doesnt follow their own practices they must be a shaygetz, or not understand the "pnimius HaTorah" (those are mostly chabadskers who make that silly argument), or whatever other reason why perfectly frum yidden are shkotzim because they are not like you. This is besides the tidal wave of am haratzus by people who clearly know nothing about halacha, but feel it necessary to explain why people who follow the greatest posek of the last generation are leydegayers and lack yiras shomayim. What is worse is that these arguments show a great disrespect for R Moshe and his Torah.

I would rather drink 1000 gallons of Cholov Stam than have to answer for such sinah and kitrug when I get up to Shamayim.

why every time someone points out the fallacys of a certain group of people you always cry 'sinas chinom'. this is the truth that those are 'makel' (actually 'kalim') in quite a lot of dinim in S'U, some minor and some harbe dinim. EG:mixes swimming which is a issur deoirayse. and more. i dont feel no sinah to these yidden. but if on a public forum they state their views and sice a lot of frum people read and swallow the posting as if it toras moshe one has a responsibility to state the din in S'U

143

 Sep 10, 2009 at 04:22 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #136  
yudel Says:

All of the cholov akum in the USA is CHOLOV-TREIF. There isn't "shishim" in any of the farms for the vet procedured cows. The Ratio of treif cows in the USA is considerably higher than 1.66% of the herd. Reb Moshe was not addressing this issue at all.
Are you wondering why we are losing our kids to the streets?

It is very sad. Had R' Moshe ZTL paskened that only CY was acceptable then the big kashrus agencies would have figured out a way to provide inexpensive CY. Instead, prices remain high and people are unknowingly consuming treyf.

144

 Sep 10, 2009 at 06:30 AM Anonymous Says:

If you wish to be machmir on this, fine -- but I Iike [I am being ironic] how some of the posters here can state with such absolute 100% certainty that cholov stam is really somehow "treif". What about the hekshirim which appear on those products? Have you no kibbud rav? Do you not see the OU-D which is attached to many non-cholov Yisroel dairy products, such as most major brands of ice cream routinely available in the supermarket (Breyer's, Turkey Hill, Edy's etc), and many milk brands (e.g., Stop & Shop) or candy (M&Ms, Milky Way, etc.)? Do you not see the Kuf-K which is attached to many such products (Carvel ice cream, for instance)? Or various other well-known heksherim (OK, Star-K, Tablet-K, etc)? If something is outright treif, as you insist the non-cholov Yisroel milk is, with no ifs, ands or buts about it, then you are in effect saying that the respected Orthodox rabbonim who work for these bodies in supervising kashrus and deciding whether or not to grant a heksher, and who grant their heksherim to such products are either a) ignoramuses, chas v'sholom, or b) corrupt money-driven, corner-cutting weasels, chas v'sholom. Not only does this undermine respect for the rabbinate, which is a very serious matter -- but do you not regularly rely on those same heksherim in deciding whether to use some other, non-dairy product? How is it that you will trust and rely on the OU for a canned or packaged product -- but for dairy, they cannot be relied upon and (in your eyes) they must be either stupid or corrupt because they certify as kosher a non-cholov Yisroel milk product, which you believe must ipso facto must be trief no matter what?

145

 Sep 09, 2009 at 11:44 PM very frum Says:

Reply to #70  
Anonymous Says:

Interesting thought, isn't milk pasteurized, which is actually cooking, so that would go into the problem of "Bishul Akum"?

Ask Reb Dovid or Reb Reuven what their father held...
This will stop all the arguing...
If you have spent any time with these American Gedolim you will know that they eat Cholov Stam

Enjoy :)

146

 Sep 09, 2009 at 11:43 PM voiceoftruth Says:

"Similarly, a husband may reunite with his wife after she returns from the mikveh, because he “knows” she immersed. "
It is sneaky and deceptive how the author blames his own nonsensical understanding of Halacha on Tosfos. By writing the word "similarly" he implies that this is also part of what Tosfos says. This is not the case. I find it disturbing and indicative of a trend of intellectual dishonesty. The aforementioned Halacha is based on the principle of "Eid Echad Neemam B'issurim", not the idea of "knowledge is like testimony".

147

 Sep 10, 2009 at 06:47 AM . True Green Says:

Reply to #136  
yudel Says:

All of the cholov akum in the USA is CHOLOV-TREIF. There isn't "shishim" in any of the farms for the vet procedured cows. The Ratio of treif cows in the USA is considerably higher than 1.66% of the herd. Reb Moshe was not addressing this issue at all.
Are you wondering why we are losing our kids to the streets?

Wow, a mathematical genius! He knows that 1 divided by 60 times 100 is 1.66. Whoops, but it's not, it's closer to 1.67. And since you are such a great scientist/mathematician can you show me the empirical source for your relating cholov akum (aka TREIF) to "losing our kids to the streets"? I think you deserve a holiness rating of
HR = 98.33. (That's 100 minus 1.67.)

148

 Sep 10, 2009 at 06:44 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #128  
Anonymous Says:

As a mashgiach for Chalav Yisroel Milk, I find a bunch of these posts absurd including the one about a few drops of nonkosher milk causing a whole vat of milk from becoming sour. I cannot write about Rabbi Moshe Fienstiens teshuvos because I have never looked into them in detail.

All Kosher milk by definition is not homogeneous. This means that the protein will separate from the fat if it sits for a given time. Non Kosher milk is homogeneous which means the protein in the milk and the fat do not repel each other and they both can stay suspended in the liquid without separating. Before the time of agitators (basically a mixer that agitates the milk and keeps it from separating) and homogenizing agents.(a substance that keeps two parts of a solution from separating) Kosher milk after a number of hours would separate. The cream or fat rises to the top and the protein is on bottom similar to how oil floats on top of water.

Using this information one cannot make butter from non Kosher milk. One makes butter by skimming (the days before separators) the milk or separating the fat from the protein. One takes this cream and churns it (basically mixes it) until it becomes firmer. This is what we call butter. If one took non kosher milk and let it sit, the fat will not rise to the top. Even if someone put non kosher milk into a separator they would not get the cream out.

Understanding this, will help people understand why a farmer might want to mix nonkosher milk into kosher milk. If by some odd chance the farmer does not have a agitator (they all do now) and he wants to bottle his milk (most send their milk to a bottling plant) he would need a homogenizing agent to keep his milk from separating. Non kosher milk can be used as a homogenizing agent.

To the people that talk about testing milk and that the USDA does not test for non kosher milk.......

The farmer has a number of incentives to keep his milk pure. First, it would not be cost effective for him to milk any other animal than the one he currently milks. All of his machinery is set up to milk only cows. It also would not be cost effective for him to buy non kosher milk add it to his cow milk and then resell the whole amount as cow milk. Any other milk besides cows are a lot more expensive and he would be shooting himself in the foot by doing this.
Two, if the bottling company wants to separate the milk to make skim milk and the farmer added a homogenizing (including non kosher milk) agent, the bottling company would realize immediately.
Three, The usda does spot checks on all farms to make sure they comply with all regulations. Even if a toilet is broken they will get cited! Why would the farmer risk his whole business to milk non kosher animals and prop it up as cow milk. (this is besides the cost factor)

These comments have nothing to do with the Treif factor because R. Moshe's heter does not refer to this. Nor does this talk about Gevinas Yisroel which is a completely different issue.

"Why would the farmer risk his whole business to milk non kosher animals and prop it up as cow milk. (this is besides the cost factor) "

Don't you know? Every single last one of the non-Jewish farmers and people who run the big mainstream milk companies are all evil goyim with the souls of animals who will do ANYTHING, even risk going bankrupt when the government shuts them down, to destroy the neshomas of yidden (especially frum yidden, if they can do so) by palming off pig's milk as cow's milk. They live for it and think about nothing else all day, 24/7/365. It is their mission in life because Esav sonei Yaakov [sarcasm off].

149

 Sep 09, 2009 at 11:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #126  
H'gaon Says:

FYI - there is no such Chazon Ish !! The only milk" he considered is 'powdered milk' and for total diff. reasons i.e. panim chadashot' see Yoreh deah..In fact I recall in his yalmid 'aznoei Yehoshua' mentions that Rav Moshe Soloveitchick (Switzerland)asked ones the Chazon ish about that heter and that it was metioned in his name that he's matir..he was upset by that and responded something to the affect that whats next they going to say I'm matir 'chilul shabbat!

Stop believing everything you hear. The Chazon Ish says CLEARLY in yore deah 41:7 that in a civilized country there is no chalav akum. To distort his words for your own agenda is a disgrace to the kavod of this great man. And as some are suggesting that the chazon ish said it hypothetically but never lihalacha, you clearly know nothing about the chazon ish. If he had a mehalech he went with it and believed in it fully, whether lechumra or lekula. I spoke with 2 great poskim about this, rav yisroel belsky, who himself believes strongly to be machmir on c'y, and rav yitzchock abadi who does not believe in being machmir on c'y, and they both agreed with me that there is no other way to read this chazon ish and he 100% permitted it bli shum pikpuk.

150

 Sep 09, 2009 at 11:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
Ojoe Says:

"no one ever talks about the other letter from r moshe where he said he was never matir choluv stam, and he was talking about bishas hadchak ONLY."

No one ever talks about it because it does not exist.

The real issue is that CY is MUCH more expensive. Since R moshe was Matir it Cholov stam in America, it is a Chumrah to keep CY, not a chiyyuv, and R Moshe specifically says in his teshuvo that one should not noodge people who are somech on it.

We live in a day and age where Chumrah has become the norm and where people who keep chumros think that whoever doesnt do exactly like they do are shkotzim. Its a terrible situation, especially in Elul.

Ya mean like this nauseating display "for all those who want to drink cholov stam go ahead do it it is kosher however it is not accepted by everyone however do not lecture us cholov yisroel drinkers. while you feel it is important to spend $1,000 s of dollars on plasma tv's I feel like spending it on cholv yisroel"

151

 Sep 09, 2009 at 11:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

the big lie....

no one ever talks about the other letter from r moshe where he said he was never matir choluv stam, and he was talking about bishas hadchak ONLY.

In which chelek of the I'M is this letter published?

152

 Sep 09, 2009 at 11:10 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
R moshe Says:

R moshe was very Makpid on cholov yisroel
ask his children & talmidim

R Moshe may very well have been makpid for himself personally, however his children did not all, always keep to that hakpada. Additionally, he allowed to be sold in the candy machines in MTJ, non-CY products. In fact one can even go today, and see non-CY products being sold, with the full knowledge of R Dovid.

153

 Sep 10, 2009 at 07:49 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #80  
Anonymous Says:

how does Rav Eliashuv come to pasken for U.S. ? You try (any American Rav) give a psak for E.Yisroel & see their response. he is a true Gadol and posek but has no business to issue a psak for here. Let him keep his nose in E.Yisroel and comment rather on all gneivishe shtik that are perpetrated there by his fellow frummies.

CHUTZPAH, to write like this about Rav Eliashiv Shlita

154

 Sep 10, 2009 at 08:07 AM berel Says:

Reply to #80  
Anonymous Says:

how does Rav Eliashuv come to pasken for U.S. ? You try (any American Rav) give a psak for E.Yisroel & see their response. he is a true Gadol and posek but has no business to issue a psak for here. Let him keep his nose in E.Yisroel and comment rather on all gneivishe shtik that are perpetrated there by his fellow frummies.

see brochos 19a top

155

 Sep 10, 2009 at 08:15 AM Correction Says:

Reply to #138  
Anonymous Says:

“ I think it is you who should attend the Yoreh De'ah lecture. And to help you along (since you seem to never have read shulchan oruch) it's y.d.115:1 What part of "Milk is only mutar when a Yisroel watches the milking, verifying that milk from non-kosher animal species is not incorporated" do you misunderstand here?
milk from 100% cows, and supervised by a jew to be from 100% cows is 100% cholov yisrael. ”
Yeah, and a number of simanim earlier, (I think it's simman 84:1, it says that milk from a treif animal is assur. We rely on rov (majority) to be mattir any milk. The rov in this case is that the majority of kosher types of animals are assumed to actually be kosher - physically kosher - until proven otherwise.
Nobody says that if you know an animal is a treifa, its milk is muttar. The question by cows is if these procedures actually make the cows halachically treif, in which case the milk is assur as well.
I'm no vet, and I'm not a possek either. I'm just stating the facts. But you are correct that these dinnim have nothing to do with cholov yisroel per se. They apply to ALL milk, and, according to some, could be a serious halachic problem, exclusive of any cholov yisroel issues.

I made a mistake. It isn't simman 84:1, it's 81:1 that discusses milk from a treyfa or temeya.

156

 Sep 10, 2009 at 08:58 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #145  
very frum Says:

Ask Reb Dovid or Reb Reuven what their father held...
This will stop all the arguing...
If you have spent any time with these American Gedolim you will know that they eat Cholov Stam

Enjoy :)

Actually they dont. Although many many years ago (when he had pre high school aged children) R Reuvain was not makpid on CY. (He readily and publicly says this).
MTJ however DOES to this day sell non CY chocolates and such.

157

 Sep 10, 2009 at 09:29 AM Lawyer Says:

With respect to the timtum ha lev argument, I recall an incident about the Chafetz Chaim that I once heard. Someone asked him how come so many children who were raised in kosher homes went off the derech -- even though their parents were very makpid about ma'achalos assuros. He answered that, yes, the food was glatt kosher in terms of yoreh deah, but the money used to buy the food was often obtained through shady means in terms of choshen mishpat. IOW, if you use stolen money to buy glatt kosher food, you are still in danger of timtum ha lev.

I respect those that insist on Jewish hasgocho and do not rely on the govt. hasgocha. The matter is a dipsute among the poskim after all. I just hope that those who are so careful to make sure their food is glatt kosher are equally carefull to make sure their money is glatt yosher.

158

 Sep 10, 2009 at 09:46 AM Lawyer Says:

Reply to #57  
Anonymous Says:

The idea of calling Cholov Acum “Cholov Stam” is totally am haratzuz!! “Cholov Stam” is Cholov Acum! The Word “stam” that people use for milk is stolen form wine. We are particularly strict when it comes to wine, because of yayin nesach, that is why we don’t drink wine of a non-Jewish person, because of the cheshash that he might have mixed in to his wine some yayin nesach. This wine is called “Stam Yayinom”. There is no such think of CHOLOV STAM!, it is totally cholov acum!!! People just label it “cholov stam” to make it easier for them to drink cholov acum!

You are only partially correct. The classical sources do not use the term "chalov stam." Nor do they use the term "cholov yisroel." The correct terms are:
1. "cholov she chalvo acum ve yisroel ro'ehu" -- milk which a non-Jew milked and Jew watched him
2. "cholov sh chalvo acum ve' ien yisorel roehu" -- milk which a non-Jew milked and a Jew did not watch him.

The issue is whether in America, given the govt. regulation of the dairy industry, the milk produced without special Jewish supervision (what is colloquially called Cholov Stam and which RMF called Cholov ha Companies) falls into the first or second category.

There is absolutely no requirement for a Jew to do the milking. It is not a matter of it being "Jewish milk." Contrast this with the halakhos of bishul akum and pas askum. There the halacho requires a Jew to have participated, at least in part, in the cooking or baking.

The reason for the difference is that the gezeiros had different reasons. Pas Yisroel and Bishul akum were for chasnus -- Chazal did not want us to fraternize toO closely with non-Jews, so they required that baked and cooked goods be produced, at least in part, by a Jew. Milk is not that kind of halacho -- the concern was not chasnus but rather to ensure that milk from non-kosher animals would not be mixed in.

The gemara already states that the watching Jew need not watch the entirety of the milking, If he is sitting down outside the cowshed and could see the milking if he stood up, that is enough to instill some level of fear of being caught in the non-Jew. The Shach, as I said, poskens that yotzei ve nichnas is sufficient for this purpose.

That does not mean that RMF's hetter is correct, necessarily. As I said, it is a machlokes ha poskim. But once one understands that the only purpose of the gezeirah is to ensure that the milk did not have non-kosher milk added, then his reasoning (that fear of being caught by the U.S. Govt. is sufficient) is at least plausible.

159

 Sep 10, 2009 at 11:03 AM starwolf Says:

Reply to #123  
Anonymous Says:

I can understand that you won't pay for CY milk,but why not for Kolel or a large family. Don't you think that Kolelim deserve our support . Don't you believe that the Lomdei Torah are the ones keeping everything going? If someone has a large family K'A"H and needs help supporting them or marrying them,don't you believe that as Jews and brothers we are responsible for one another and if asked for assistance than we should provide it based on your abilty. Why do we have to be so selfish and only think about ourselves? Where is our Ahavas Yisroel. May we all be zocheh to a K'sivah V'chasimah Tova.

Let me get this straight. In these tough economic times, when many elementary schools are in danger of closing, with teachers' salaries being, in some cases months in arrears, you are suggesting that people support a kollel practising what we ourselves consider chumrot?

Personally, I believe that there are many causes in the community that take priority over this.

160

 Sep 10, 2009 at 11:45 AM H'gaon Says:

Reply to #149  
Anonymous Says:

Stop believing everything you hear. The Chazon Ish says CLEARLY in yore deah 41:7 that in a civilized country there is no chalav akum. To distort his words for your own agenda is a disgrace to the kavod of this great man. And as some are suggesting that the chazon ish said it hypothetically but never lihalacha, you clearly know nothing about the chazon ish. If he had a mehalech he went with it and believed in it fully, whether lechumra or lekula. I spoke with 2 great poskim about this, rav yisroel belsky, who himself believes strongly to be machmir on c'y, and rav yitzchock abadi who does not believe in being machmir on c'y, and they both agreed with me that there is no other way to read this chazon ish and he 100% permitted it bli shum pikpuk.

Hmm believe I know plenty about the Chazon Ish, and what he writes in the Sefer is not always Le'maseh yes I agree that ppl misconcept him as "machmir" wich is wrong...he had his own mehalech.
Said that, let me clarify I'm not qouting just some 'tale' I'm qouting from a close talmid and as much of a posek as your Rav Belsky (who clearly has No agenda besides the OU )i.e. Rav Binyoman Zilber zl from Bnei Brak in his sefer "Az Nidbaru"...To my knowledge I recall him having enough credentials at least in regard to the Chazon Ish as R B will ever have.period. p.s if you really concerned about the Chazon Ish you should ask Rav C. Kneivsky shlita...and if he says yes...I might join your CS club...but for the time being Rav Moshe is the one n only psak l'heter and btw which goes without saying, according to the Gra's shita in t'ekanes Chazal, its no doubt aser ledato as his shtah in regard to "Mayim Gluyom" nowadays...now that would be a chumrah!

161

 Sep 10, 2009 at 10:52 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #155  
Correction Says:

I made a mistake. It isn't simman 84:1, it's 81:1 that discusses milk from a treyfa or temeya.

and again:
1. This has nothing to do with Cholov Yisroel, and it is a diversion tactic to try and connect them when the source you quote has no relevance to the discussion or halocho.

2. "milk from a temeya" - so your point is what? milk from a cow (and cow) is not a temeya. Nobody in the USA milks animals which are temeya. Nobody. No commercial dairies of any kind. This is what R'moshe and others are referring to. This is a non-issue in a first-world industrialized modern country.

3. A dying cow is not only a treifa, it is too sick to be milked. And a dairy with sick dying animals would not be USDA approved to begin with. Regarding whether an animal would die on its own within 12 months - this has been addressed by many other posters here, and a great many rabbis negate the pertinance of this issue.

4. A non-sick or non-injured animal is only determined to be a treifa after shechting and examining the carcass. Not to mention the ensuing Glatt debate. But this has nothing to do with milking. Are you in the habit of milking dead animals?

So while it's nice to quote simanim and numbers and references - do so only if they have any relevance to the issue being addressed, or usefulness to a civilized conversation. And a k'siva tova to you as well.

162

 Sep 10, 2009 at 10:42 AM berel Says:

Reply to #157  
Lawyer Says:

With respect to the timtum ha lev argument, I recall an incident about the Chafetz Chaim that I once heard. Someone asked him how come so many children who were raised in kosher homes went off the derech -- even though their parents were very makpid about ma'achalos assuros. He answered that, yes, the food was glatt kosher in terms of yoreh deah, but the money used to buy the food was often obtained through shady means in terms of choshen mishpat. IOW, if you use stolen money to buy glatt kosher food, you are still in danger of timtum ha lev.

I respect those that insist on Jewish hasgocho and do not rely on the govt. hasgocha. The matter is a dipsute among the poskim after all. I just hope that those who are so careful to make sure their food is glatt kosher are equally carefull to make sure their money is glatt yosher.

#157 so what are you trying to point out, because i am medakdek in choshen mispat i shouldnt be medakdek in chalav yisroel .or is it your shita that those who are medakdek in chalev yisroel are ganovim . by the way 'you heard you heard'. so from you heard i should base halacha on? i like when everybody comes with ' i heard, i heard. Anyway,ust dont hope and worry about my choshen mispat, and dont deflect the issues. By the way its in the sefer 'agra d'perka' from the holy tzaddik of dinov (bnei yissachar) daf 58 ois 128.By the way thats one of the mekoros the holy divrei yoel base the shita of not taking money from not holy mekoros, which i'm sure you dont go along with. so, please, no half measures.

163

 Sep 10, 2009 at 12:37 PM Lawyer Says:

Reply to #162  
berel Says:

#157 so what are you trying to point out, because i am medakdek in choshen mispat i shouldnt be medakdek in chalav yisroel .or is it your shita that those who are medakdek in chalev yisroel are ganovim . by the way 'you heard you heard'. so from you heard i should base halacha on? i like when everybody comes with ' i heard, i heard. Anyway,ust dont hope and worry about my choshen mispat, and dont deflect the issues. By the way its in the sefer 'agra d'perka' from the holy tzaddik of dinov (bnei yissachar) daf 58 ois 128.By the way thats one of the mekoros the holy divrei yoel base the shita of not taking money from not holy mekoros, which i'm sure you dont go along with. so, please, no half measures.

You sound like you have a guilty consciensce. None of the things your post wishes to put in my mouth (or computer) I said. What I did say is that one should be as makpid in one as the other.

The maaseh with the Chofetz Chaim is well documented and has been published repeatedly. I don't know of anyone that disputes it.

Interesting that you say, "dont hope and worry about my choshen mispat." Yet many here seem to be quite willing to worry about MY Yoreh Deah.

The fact of the matter is that the issue is a machlokes ha poskim. Those who are meikil have whom to rely upon -- both RMF and the Chazon Ish had plenty broad shoulders to rely upon.

As I said I respect those who are makpid on CY. I would expect the same respect in return, but am not holding my breath.

""the shita of not taking money from not holy mekoros, which i'm sure you dont go along with" -- are you a Novi now? You know whom Chazal say have nevuah in our days.

164

 Sep 10, 2009 at 12:05 PM Shua Cohen Says:

Reply to #152  
Anonymous Says:

R Moshe may very well have been makpid for himself personally, however his children did not all, always keep to that hakpada. Additionally, he allowed to be sold in the candy machines in MTJ, non-CY products. In fact one can even go today, and see non-CY products being sold, with the full knowledge of R Dovid.

> "one can even go today, and see non-CY products being sold [in MTJ]"

>> Thanks for the reminder. Many years ago the candy machine in the lobby of Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim (in Forest Hills) also had non-CY chocolate candy products. (I don't know if it's true today). Hershey's Rolos were my favorite.

Also, in one of our local kosher supermarkets the current price for a 1/2 gallon of Tuscan milk (OU-D) is $1.79. A 1/2 gallon of the Cholov Yisrael brand is $2.99. That's a whopping 67% more for the inferior Cholov Yisrael product. Since it has been admitted that poor refrigeration practices by Cholov Yisrael companies cause the milk to spoil very quickly, what you have is another major rip off of Jews by their "ehrliche" brethren. As for me, I got tired of dumping a quarter of each container down the drain and decided: ENOUGH ALREADY!! No more Cholov Yisrael.

165

 Sep 10, 2009 at 01:24 PM Anonymous Says:

The problem is not with R' Moshe's psak. He was a giant with broad shoulders and certainly if one wants to rely on it that's fine and if one doesn't want to rely on it that's also fine. The problem is the amhoratzus of many who use Cholov Stam and claim that Cholov Yisroel is nothing more than a hiddur not knowing about an open mishnah in Avodah Zoroh and open halochos in Shulchan Oruch. Do whatever you want but don't ignorantly criticize those who have mesiras nefesh to use only Cholov Yisroel and don't want to rely on R' Moshe's heter.

166

 Sep 10, 2009 at 01:52 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #146  
voiceoftruth Says:

"Similarly, a husband may reunite with his wife after she returns from the mikveh, because he “knows” she immersed. "
It is sneaky and deceptive how the author blames his own nonsensical understanding of Halacha on Tosfos. By writing the word "similarly" he implies that this is also part of what Tosfos says. This is not the case. I find it disturbing and indicative of a trend of intellectual dishonesty. The aforementioned Halacha is based on the principle of "Eid Echad Neemam B'issurim", not the idea of "knowledge is like testimony".

Actually it is indicative of ignorance on the part of the author as every High School Yeshiva Bochur knows that it because of Eid Echod K'neged Chazaka that is Beyada. What bothers me more is that from the article one would thing it is part of R Moshe's Tshuvah. I already reflected on this in comment# 2

167

 Sep 10, 2009 at 02:43 PM StamMan Says:

i find it despicable that people claiming to be poor and in need of funds will drink CY when the tzedakah funds are better used to provide decent clothing and nutritional meals to the family. In other words, dont go around schnorring gelt during davening for people to drink CY.

168

 Sep 10, 2009 at 03:51 PM Ben Kochba Says:

Reply to #136  
yudel Says:

All of the cholov akum in the USA is CHOLOV-TREIF. There isn't "shishim" in any of the farms for the vet procedured cows. The Ratio of treif cows in the USA is considerably higher than 1.66% of the herd. Reb Moshe was not addressing this issue at all.
Are you wondering why we are losing our kids to the streets?

You are completely right. We are losing kids to the MILK Crisis!!! How come we all did not see this sooner. OK Klal Yisroel prepare the Tehillim gatherings, fasting and sackcloth for all the Cholov Stam Drinkers are forcing our kids astray.
Please ignore all Sinas Chinim issues, pedophiles, fakers, robber barons, drugs, overcrowded schools, overburdened parents, and other child child abuses, we have a MILK Crisis on our hands.

169

 Sep 10, 2009 at 04:20 PM Shua Cohen Says:

Reply to #168  
Ben Kochba Says:

You are completely right. We are losing kids to the MILK Crisis!!! How come we all did not see this sooner. OK Klal Yisroel prepare the Tehillim gatherings, fasting and sackcloth for all the Cholov Stam Drinkers are forcing our kids astray.
Please ignore all Sinas Chinim issues, pedophiles, fakers, robber barons, drugs, overcrowded schools, overburdened parents, and other child child abuses, we have a MILK Crisis on our hands.

Thanks for the post. You really cracked me up and who can't use a good laugh nowadays?

In truth, only Moshiach can solve the milk crisis, but what if he's lactose intolerant and, not being able to drink milk, refuses to poskin for the rest of us. Soy milk for everyone! (I think I'll invest in soybean futures...there may be some money in this).

170

 Sep 10, 2009 at 04:27 PM the letzer dor Says:

now we have that earth shattering crisis out of the way, what did reb moishe pasken on money laundering,tax evasion, ponzi schemes, fraudsters, money scams, paedophiles, child abusers, wife abusers etc etc,

171

 Sep 10, 2009 at 04:36 PM A Sensible Yid Says:

I would argue many of you did not read the article in its entirety.
Firstly, it does not (and says so) talk about cheese - which is a more complex issue.
Also, the article seems to be explaining primarily Rav Moshe's point that in the US you can be sure that milk from a big company is coming from cows.
The author writes that this applies to US only, and small farms are not included in the heter - school children should be taught about CY so they will be aware when they travel outside of the US.
The author presented RMF's personal opinion to be machmir, while saying commercial milk in the US is definitely from cows.

And it looks like he avoided issues of whether any milk is OK (ala the issue raised by RH Schachter, as mentioned in the article in the RJJ journal), because RMF did not address that issue.

The article does not suggest what people should do, practically speaking. It just says - bringing in ideas such as ידיעה כעדות - that according to RMF, US milk comes from cows.

172

 Sep 10, 2009 at 05:25 PM Chalov Stam Expert Says:

It is hoped that everyone reads this post!! Does no one realize that we have one of the biggest Geonim and Gedolai Haposkim living here in NY who also happens to be rav moshe’s son!! Has anyone who posted even spoken to hagoan harav dovid feinstein about the subject???!!
I have personally spoken to Rav Rav Dovid as well as learned the tshuvos in depth. I learned in the great Yeshivos of Mir and Lakewood and was in Kollel until I was 31 years. I was always amazed at the ferocity with which those MAKPID on Cholov Yosroel argued that for some reason Rav Moshe’s psak did not apply or was not valid or he himself Chas V’Shalom did not really hold of his Psak. It was always obvious that these people were ignorant of both the psakim and the facts.
Facts:
1) The first understanding one must have is that the issur of drinking Cholov Akum is a Takana D’Rabanan so that one does not inadvertently drink Chalev Issur outright, or mixed into the cows milk.
2) PLEASE GET THIS STREIGHT, EVERYONE, INCLUDING THOSE WHO TALK WITHOUT LEARNING: Rav Moshe held that it is FACT, again, Rav Moshe held it was FACT (NOT BASED ON ANY WRONG INFO-THE USDA DOES IN FACT HAVE SEVERE PENALTIES FOR TAMPERING WITH PURE COWS MILK AND THEY DO INSPECT), a 100% METZIUS, that there is absolutely NO question that Cows Milk in the US is totally 100% pure cows milk, for the reason stated in the article. He was very strong about this as is evident in his Teshuvos.
3) Rav Moshe was never Chozer on this Psak
4) Rav Moshe learned every word of Torah, L’Amitas Hadvarim as he saw it. Those who say he Paskened any Sheaila for a Horaash Shaa are Kofrim Bdaas Chachamim just as it is Kefirah Bdaas Chachmim to say the Rambam or Ramban said a certain psak because of the circumstances of their time. Rav Moshe said so many times (Its even in the Artscroll book about him), that “he learns what is emmes in his eyes and gives Psak. If the people like what they hear they accept it”. Rav Moshe was Kulo Emmes and if he meant it as Horaas Shaa he would have clearly said so.
5) To anyone who fully understands the Psak, and this is also straight from Rav Dovid Feinstein, Rav Moshe held that in a circumstance such as is FACT in the USA that the commercial Dairys are producing and selling pure cows milk, THAT THE CHAMAMIM, WE NEVER GOZER IN SUCH A CIRCUMSTANCE. Again, the psak is that in a situation like we have in the USA that it is a Metzius that milk is pure, THE CHACHAMIM WERE NEVER GOZER, plain and simple!
6) FACT: Again and this is also from Rav Dovid Feinstein but for anyone with Kishron it is clear from the gist of the teshuvos; Rav Moshe says that a “Baal Nefesh will be Machmir”. What Rav Moshe was referring to was NOT that one should be machmir because of a Chashash Tref Milk. (For he was ever so strong in the teshuvos that it’s a Vaday Metzius that the milk in the US is pure), HE WAS SAYING THIS: and this is the most important thing to understand, HE WAS SAYING THAT SINCE ITS STILL HIS OWN SVARAH, HIS OWN CHIDUSH, THAT THE CHACHAMIM WERE NOT GOZER IN THIS CERCUMSTANCE, THAT IF ONE IS WORRIED, thus the term “baal nefesh”, THAT HE MAY BE IN ERROR WITH THIS PARTICULAR CHIDUSH, since its not the hardest thing to keep Cholov Yisroel, that person will be machmir.
THIS IS THE CRUX OF IT ALL AND IF ONLY THOSE “LEARNED” AMHARATZIM WOULD PICK UP A PHONE AND JUST CALL RAV DOVID, THEY COULD HEAR FROM THE RAV MOSHE EXPERT WHAT RAV MOSHE SAID AND HELD INSTEAD OF DREAMING IT UP THEMSELVES. (Including those Rabanim who are in eror).
PS. As far as any new sheaila of cows being treifas and their milk being a problem, one must ask a competent Posek. But if the OU still gives a hechsher on the Milk we can assume there are big poskim who hold that this new sheailah is not a problem.



173

 Sep 10, 2009 at 05:30 PM Cholov Stam Expert Says:

It is hoped that everyone reads this post!! Does no one realize that we have one of the biggest Geonim and Gedolai Haposkim living here in NY who also happens to be rav moshe’s son!! Has anyone who posted even spoken to hagoan harav dovid feinstein about the subject???!!
I have personally spoken to Rav Rav Dovid as well as learned the tshuvos in depth. I learned in the great Yeshivos of Mir and Lakewood and was in Kollel until I was 31 years. I was always amazed at the ferocity with which those MAKPID on Cholov Yosroel argued that for some reason Rav Moshe’s psak did not apply or was not valid or he himself Chas V’Shalom did not really hold of his Psak. It was always obvious that these people were ignorant of both the psakim and the facts.
(The Facts are Continued Next Post Stay Tuned)

174

 Sep 10, 2009 at 05:09 PM Ben Kochba Says:

Reply to #170  
the letzer dor Says:

now we have that earth shattering crisis out of the way, what did reb moishe pasken on money laundering,tax evasion, ponzi schemes, fraudsters, money scams, paedophiles, child abusers, wife abusers etc etc,

It's obvious havent you been reading, if you DO drink CY you can do all of these things. You must not be a big Lamdin not to have figured it out.
If you dont drink CY than of course you have done all of those things for lack of the purenss of your milk.

175

 Sep 11, 2009 at 04:58 AM matzahlocal101 Says:

I actually read all the posts through #174. I was up to #149 before I felt the need to pull out a chazon ish (Bnei Brak, noon daled) and read through the whole Tshuva. What poster 149 cites as Yoreh dayah 41:7 is actually 41:4 and the beginning of the Tshiva is not as simple as he writes regarding the end.
Here are the facts:
Shulchan Oruch forbids the use of milk of which a Jew did not witness it's milking. Even cursory access would be enough to label the milk "Yisroel ra'ahu".
According to the Chazon Ish Mirsus is a major mitigating factor and the availability or non-availability of non kosher milk at the site is another major factor.

As pointed out by one poster, RMF did not matir cholov akum. If your neighbor, farmer Jones, offered you a glass of fresh non homogenized milk Reb Moshe would say it's assur. I believe the mechanics of the heter are: since there are agencies that monitor the dairies, can make spot checks, and regulations requiring the facility to be free of other type of livestock, with considerable punitive measures including the possibility of shutting down the facility, the milking is considered "watched" and comes into the the gedar of "yisroel ra'ahu". It can't be called cholov yisroel because a Jew did not watch it but it, nor is cholov akum because it was somewhat supervised.

However the following issues remain problematic:
1) RMF Tshuvas were specifically concerning the governmental supervision system in the United States. The tshuva as been given a blanket application to non-cholov yisroel dairy products from other countries that were NEVER addressed by RMF.
2) Goyish Cheese is listed as one the 18 takanos (Yerushalmi Shabbos) because of "Davar achar" These 18 takanos even if Eliyahu and his bais din would be matir we would not listen, al achas kama vikama a bais din which is not greater in chochma or minyan. While treif milk does become cheese, it may be in the mixture remaining as milk, while the rest of the milk curdles (Rashi cited by Chazon Ish ibid & Shu"t Tzemach Tzedek) Non cholov yisroel cheeses and chocolates from Switzerland might rely on the Chazon Ish, but no one ever cites him in that respect, they all cite RMF which clearly would not apply.
3) While RMF wrote not to criticize someone who uses CS, it amazing the venom flowing from those that feel free to attack the ones who use CY. Check and see if RMF says that's the right thing to do. I don't recall seeing it in the Tshuva.
4) The puncturing of the stomach is listed as a mum that renders the anmal a treifah. A treifah that lives more than 12 months is addressed in the poskim and it does not mean that it is not a treifah. even according to those that would permit such an animal on the basis that the animal lived more the twelve months what be the rationale to allow the use of the milk for the first 12 months while the animal was a safek treifah? And even if the majority of such animals survive, we would only know that after the majority were injected and survived, to assume that a safek treifah will survive means the milk is a safek treif, safek di'oreisa lichumrah, and couldn't be used before that time. So such a heter after the fact does not address the the first year of the procedure.
5) Poster #172 was correct that Rav Moshe was surely one of the pre-eminent poskim of the last generation, but in his self serving defense of using CS, the poster fails to realize that "Frum" Jew is required to follow his own posek. So writing RMF praises while ignoring the slights to R' Eliyashiv, R' Wosner, and the tamidei chachomim that do not hold from RMF heter is truly two faced.
6) Even according to a recent OU daf hakashrus article (Kislev 5769) entitled "Cholov stam revisted" the mechanics of the heter now work on different dynamics then those stated by RMF in the tshuvas and now work on the exact opposite reasons. It emphasizes the previous use by RMF of "bo liyad yisroel", which may not be well supported by other sources and poskim.
7) Lastly I feel the article was written by someone who feels the need to show that he's qualified to be the next gadol hador (I was not surprised to see his name) and has previously published articles that attack chareidi practices in an insinuous manner. The underlying message in his articles is always "The way the chareidim do things is wrong and we are so much better educated then they."

Beware geeks bearing rifts.

176

 Sep 10, 2009 at 11:43 PM starwolf Says:

It just goes to show:
A man that is an agreed-upon Gadol Hador, a giant of Torah, halacha and midot, one who clearly investigated all matters pertaining to the halacha, who published the reasons for his piskei halacha so that all would understand--can issue a clear psak---and those who insist on their chumrot use excuses such as "he didn't really mean it" or "he didn't understand" to explain that their shita is better.

You want to use chalav Yisrael-- by all means.

You wish to insist that those who do not are not fully committed Jews (read some of the above posts)--if that makes you feel superior to the guy davening next to you during selichot, that's your problem.

If you wish to collect money for institutions that teach this--I can only suggest that you start with the graduates of these institutions who have adopted this style of thinking--and leave the rest of us to support more vital Jewish causes.

177

 Sep 10, 2009 at 11:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #161  
Anonymous Says:

and again:
1. This has nothing to do with Cholov Yisroel, and it is a diversion tactic to try and connect them when the source you quote has no relevance to the discussion or halocho.

2. "milk from a temeya" - so your point is what? milk from a cow (and cow) is not a temeya. Nobody in the USA milks animals which are temeya. Nobody. No commercial dairies of any kind. This is what R'moshe and others are referring to. This is a non-issue in a first-world industrialized modern country.

3. A dying cow is not only a treifa, it is too sick to be milked. And a dairy with sick dying animals would not be USDA approved to begin with. Regarding whether an animal would die on its own within 12 months - this has been addressed by many other posters here, and a great many rabbis negate the pertinance of this issue.

4. A non-sick or non-injured animal is only determined to be a treifa after shechting and examining the carcass. Not to mention the ensuing Glatt debate. But this has nothing to do with milking. Are you in the habit of milking dead animals?

So while it's nice to quote simanim and numbers and references - do so only if they have any relevance to the issue being addressed, or usefulness to a civilized conversation. And a k'siva tova to you as well.

So while it's nice to quote simanim and numbers and references - do so only if they have any relevance to the issue being addressed, or usefulness to a civilized conversation. And a k'siva tova to you as well. ”

Whew. Are you in the milk business? Or are you a member of some militant Cholov Stam movement? You are obstinately trying to miss or avoid the point. And you are the one who is writing with nastiness and sarcasm, as well as ignorance. I'll try just once more.
STEP 1: There is a surgical procedure done on dairy cows that SOME rabbonim hold makes those animals halachically treifos. (NOT temeyos. Temeyos are species that are not kosher.)
STEP 2: If we know that a particular cow is halachically a treyfa, milk that it produces is assur.
STEP 3: Cow's milk, in general, is only muttar since we assume that most cows are kosher. If the majority of cows have this procedure, than, according to those rabbonim, there would be no chezkas kashrus on ALL milk (not only Cholov Yisroel). Of course, a farmer could exclusively use cows which haven't had surgery. It could be that some are makpid like this (which I think is the case BTW)

Whether this surgery renders animals treifos is a matter for discussion. I certainly don't know the answer. But some rabbonim think so. Someone posted that Rav Belsky holds not, since, in his experience, they do not die within 12 months. But others hold that since the animals' innards are punctured, even though they are repaired, than they are indeed treif.
This has nothing to do with my personal opinion. I'm simply trying to explain what this issue is. I can't help it if that seems to bother you. And again, you are correct that it is not, per se, a cholov Yisroel issue. A company that wanted to could get a hashgacha that just verifies the physical condition of the cows, without the milk being officially "cholov Yisroel."
And a word of advice: Don't quit your day job and try to become a debater. Childish insults and snarky comments are great reading online, but they won't help you prove your point - in fact I don't even know what point you're trying to make.

178

 Sep 15, 2009 at 02:11 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
FRUM BUT NORMAL Says:

even the CHAZON ISH z'l who was a known to be a MACHMIR in halacha,rules that in our times when the government has strict rules in forbiding any other milk but cow milk,there is absolutely no ISSUR in CHOLOV STAM

Just quoting without giving an address is meaningless

179

 Sep 15, 2009 at 02:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Rav Moshe is addressing the issue of Cholov Yisroel whether it applies in the instances he mentions. However there are other considerations like treifos. If you recall a number of years back there appeared a question whether ANY milk is kosher since the animals are given injections into the stomach - in a place where a hole makes it a trefa. Therefore one should take this issue in considerations when drinking non cholov yisroel milk.

180

 Sep 15, 2009 at 06:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #16  
a must read Says:

while reb moshe's psak was that since the united states government monitors milk producers, we can be sure that the milk in this country comes from cows and is therefore kosher.
this psak only tells us that the milk comes from a kosher animal species, HOWEVER, there are those that are of the opinion that although cows are a kosher species, the ones that are used for milking are TREIFE, because they have a hole in a vital organ asa result of an injection that is given to the cow.
Reb Hershel Shachter of YU (modern orthodox), holds that milk nowadays is CHOLOV TREIFE and is assur to drink.

Firstly to imply RHS as (modern orthodox) is incorrect. You are quoting a godol hador of our life time ! Do you even know him ? Your interpritation is incorrect as well. He is machmer only for himself and will drink goats milk. Get the facts straight before publisizing something.

181

 Sep 21, 2009 at 05:25 PM Bain Adom L'Chavairo Says:

People Please! Jews listen up! I have always been under the gun for going with Rav Moshe's Psak. As I can clearly see by some of the coments here, threre are those that feel Under the gun for keeping cholov yosroel. THIS IS ALL WRONG AND SHOULD NOT BE THE CASE. What is really upon us is to say that either side is good as long as they have "pleitzes" to rely on then as long as we are mecavein l'shaim shamayim we are all ok. Most anyone ho attacks another Jew either for or against cholov stam or yisroel are people who dont understand that we are in this world ONLY to be Mekadesh Shaim Shamayim! HOW? The Goan explains in Even Shlaima by working on our midos and pushing ourselves to get our midos to align with that of the Boreh. Not just in our actions andnot just in our words, but our self beings must be a Kidush Hashem. Again the tachlis of it all is to get our midos as close as we can to that of the Hashems- Mah Hu Rachum af ata Rachum". We do this by using the Torah and Mitzvos which help us transform our midos. Now in the case of Chumros including CY or Hetairim including CS we all must respect the other and as long as the Psak is coming from a Yirei Shamayim, (let alone a person who Rav Ahron Kotler said even when he did not like a certain Psak from RM, "The Halacha is like him at all times. If the posek hador says the halacha is so then we must listen to him" ) just as we must all respect those who keep chumros because they are churaid ldvar Hashem. Rak Lechavain lebo Leshaim Shamayim. If you attack you ned to check you midos (Pinchus was an Ish Shalom thats how we know he was totally Leshaim Shamayim. that was Pinchos NOT US!)
Do we all celebrate Lag B'Omer??? Well then we should all start to consider what is meant by 'Lo Nahagu Cavod Zeh B'Zeh"! It does not just mean they did not stand up for one another, it means that they did not respect each other, and why would they not respect another Tanah (in the making) because this happened when the other had a different psak and was noheg differently than they themselves. Well they all died, 24,000 of them. Rabosai lets stop making Yiddishkeit what we want to make of it and lets start living the tru Tachlis of Yiddishkeit to become Mushlam Bmidosainu by Learning Torah and Keeping Mitzvos Lishmah including Keeping CY or Having Emunah Beddas Chachamim and relying on RM's Psak.

182

 Sep 22, 2009 at 07:52 PM anon Says:

This talk of CY being more expensive is valid. But if the Yeshivish olam would start using it, the demand would drive the price down. A very little messiras nefesh will go a long way.

183

 Oct 27, 2009 at 07:51 AM Mashgiach on a FARM NOW! :) Says:

BS"D

As someone watching on a farm now.. So many issues.. Oh my.. And so much of the topic is ..B'Dieved?? How can we choose to live our lives B'Dieved when we have a choise of L'Maseh? Its like oh whoops I forgot to put on my seatbelt and the officer sais but its the law and we say yeah but its after the fact and could you now be leniant? Look so many if not everyone here seems to have the upmost intention of Emes and Awe of Hashem and their Rabbi's who guide us thru such COMPLEX Halachas. On a Farm the fact or otherwise of the milk coming from a cow is not even %5 of the Shailos that we have had on the farms. How about Dam B'Cholov or the Sciatica area(Rear leg above knee below the joint of the upper leg..or how about c-section that the doctor cut some extra low(saw cow die within 30 hours and this was an experienced vet. What does it take for us to realize we have a source for being Machmir so use it? What will it take to realize that maybe by holding the rung just that little bit higher we would merrit more of our brothers and sister returning to our faith of strengh(foundations) not a faith based on price and taste or for that matter Cheter's. Most that I am privy to are personal Cheters given to their Talmids or Chevra on an idividual basis. Well on to check some more cows..

A Gut Yar from strength to Strength and Praying for Mashiach NOW,

Mashgiach on the FARM.

184

 Oct 27, 2009 at 03:04 AM dlz Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

the big lie....

no one ever talks about the other letter from r moshe where he said he was never matir choluv stam, and he was talking about bishas hadchak ONLY.

What are you talking about? Have you read R' Moshe's teshuvos? It is clear that the hetter was NOT only bishas hadchak.

185

Sign-in to post a comment

Click here to sign-in.

Scroll Up
Advertisements:
Sell your scrap gold and broken jewelry and earn hard cash sell gold today!