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Jerusalem -Tznius Home Visit Campaign in Secular Beit Hakerem Upsets the Residents

Published on: September 14, 2009 11:43 AM
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A Jerusalem shop catering to ultra-Orthodox women displays the long-sleeve shirts and ankle-length skirts that women are required to wear according to Jewish law. File Photo Jerusalem - The secularists in Jerusalem are a scared species these days, fearful for their future in the city. Even a chareidi just passing through their neighborhood fills them with suspicion, foreboding and despair.

At least, that’s the conclusion that can be drawn after some residents expressed their shock upon finding a pink advertising flyer in their mailbox urging women to dress more modestly and to use the local mikvah. The campaign was followed up with home visits by religious women to explain the concept of tznius.

A. and R. are a young secular couple living in the neighborhood who married a few months ago. Two weeks ago, R. was alone in the house when unexpected chareidi women knocked on her door and asked to come in.

R. relates, “At first they asked me to join classes on Judaism in Kiryat Yovel, and I politely refused. Afterwards, they began to ask personal questions. They asked if I was married and if I go to the mikvah. They wanted me to know there was a mikvah close to our home and that I should go there.”

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Stunned at this attempt to invade her home and life, R. wouldn’t let the visitors come in. She was given a pink flyer explaining the principles of tznius. As they parted, her uncalled visitors amiably added that the “the rav asked to dress more modestly, with longer sleeves and untight clothes.”

The pink flyer, which was titled “Daughter of the King”, was distributed to many homes during the home visits made by the callers. The flyer adheres women, “Honor yourself by covering yourself. Tznius will give you peace of mind. Remember that you are a daughter of the king, a princess. Princesses don’t roam the streets… tznius is highly praiseworthy and one should try to fulfill it to the utmost.”

On the second part of the flyer is a prayer to the Master of the Universe to help a woman achieve her desire to be modest. “Help me be a kosher, modest and truthful woman as You desire.”

The thousands of flyers in fact were produced in Tsefas. A chareidi woman called Esther has written up the flyers and is distributing them. She mentioned that she printed 3 different kinds of flyers—one for all Jewish women, another one in peach for married women and a lavender one which also brings relevant halachos. She explains, “I am doing this l’shem shomayim to bring merit to Jewish women.”

Several days ago, A. and R. received another visit, but this time A. was in the house. “I learned my lesson and this time I opened the door dressed in underwear,” says A. cynically. “They immediately left.”

After laughing at their reaction, he says seriously, “We got married several months ago and deliberately chose to live here. As it is, my wife does not dress provocatively. But we live with the feeling that we are under observation—imagine, people come to our home and tell us how to dress!” He says he doesn’t know if there is any future for him in the neighborhood or anywhere in Jerusalem.

Another resident of Bet Hakerem, M., claims that for a long time already, “Things are changing in the neighborhood. It’s obvious to all of us that within a few years, there won’t be many chilonim here. The proof is the chareidi realtors which are buzzing around everywhere, as well as the religious families that buy second hand houses after a mikvah or shul was built.”



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Read Comments (97)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:12 AM Anonymous Says:

what a kidush hasham yes there are still jewish men and women fighting for hasham may they be blased

2

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:09 AM formally Says:

one must fight fire with fire.

Thew non religious should walk around with the least amount of cloths that their morals allow. And just ignore the people who are telling them to wear more clothing

3

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:07 AM Anonymous Says:

the absurdity of the opening line of the article, "The secularists in Jerusalem are a scared species these days.." shows the author's bias. need anything more be said?
I personally don't think that it is very nice of the people going around and invading like that, but let's not blow things out of proportion - "a scared species" ? Absurd!

4

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:14 AM MD Says:

This is obviously one of the many provocative, anti-chareidi articles in the secular media. Teltale signs include the fact that not a single person is identified by name. Everyone is anonymous. The Israeli media has been doing this for decades. Why not go to the Maariv website and register a protest!

5

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:01 AM Anonymous Says:


I would like to pose a seroius question here:

Are these "Home Invadors" really doing the right thing or not?

In other words maybe there IS a chiyuv for Frum People to try and bring back as many yiddeshe Neshomos as possible. On the other hand maybe it's not our buisiness to bother others and let them live their lives as they wish as long as we lead by example.

Either way though, even if you hold that we do have a chiyuv to engage them, is THIS WAY the proper way according to ANYBODY??

I'm just wondering...

6

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:23 AM Anonymous Says:

Why don't they knock on doors in meah shearrim and telt the demonstrators what a chillul hashem they are committing by throwing dirty diapers at the police or burning dumpsters on shabbos . That would be a much better and more productive use of their time.

7

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:22 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
formally Says:

one must fight fire with fire.

Thew non religious should walk around with the least amount of cloths that their morals allow. And just ignore the people who are telling them to wear more clothing

You really mean ignore HASHEM.

8

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:22 AM Anonymous Says:

If someone came into my home and started asking my wife about whether she goes to mikvah, I would kick him or her out on their duffs and tell them in no uncertain terms to NEVER come back on my property or approach any member of my mishapcha. How dare these people seek to impose their lifestyle or beliefs on others who don't want to hear their message. As a practical matter, we are shomrei torah umitzvot but strongly resent these fanatics from engaing in their evangelical efforts. I'd do the same to someone from Jew for Jesus if they started bothering my family.

9

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:29 AM Dovid Says:

Next time people object to chareidim moving to their neighborhood you will know why. Oh yes, it must be anti semitism

10

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:56 AM Robert Says:

there needs to be mutual respect amongst the various factions
that includes not knocking on their doors or telemarketing them at home..
and yes this applies both ways.
how would the chareidim feel if secular activists knocked on their doors encoraging a more open and nonobservant lifestyle.. i think the mesage is clear
there is a time and place for everything..

11

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:50 AM PMO Says:

Reply to #3  
Anonymous Says:

the absurdity of the opening line of the article, "The secularists in Jerusalem are a scared species these days.." shows the author's bias. need anything more be said?
I personally don't think that it is very nice of the people going around and invading like that, but let's not blow things out of proportion - "a scared species" ? Absurd!

Imagine if a PARTICULAR group of Palestinians were out rioting and protesting in Yerushalayim, committing arson, and attacking random cab drivers. I'd be scared if I saw them in my neighborhood and would problably answer the door with gun-in-hand.

I must say, that the same holds true here. Far too many of these people are violent. I know it is a minority, but it is enough that it gives me pause as well.

The funny thing is, many people reading this already have that same fear of African Americans in their neighborhoods (like Crown Heights). Even though they know that the overwhelming majority of them are fine, upstanding people, some still have this reaction. Why? EXPERIENCE.

That is the very problem with the behavior of these animals that have infiltrated the community. This is why chillul H" is such a big deal. Could you have ever imagined that other yidden would one day see chareidim as "ideologues" or "radicals", but they would actual begin to see us as a physical threat to their safety and the safety of their property?

THAT, my friends is the kind of damage that can take a generation or more to undo. Congratulations to the animals who have done this to us. You have robbed chilonim of any chance at a Torah life by pushing them away, and you have made the rest of our lives more difficult and created hatred towards us for no reason whatsoever. All you have done is PUSH yidden to run from Hashem and Torah. Every single aveiroh they do is on you.

12

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:49 AM Anonymous Says:

There is nothing wrong with doing Kiruv. However it has be done in a non provacotive way.

13

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:49 AM Lawyer Says:

Here is a thought. Suppose the people knocking on the doors were handing out flyers asking people to believe in J_____. (This happened to my grandmother in EY!)

Would the same people feel "threatened?"

14

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:42 AM destro613 Says:

they are like the 7th day Adventist or the Mormons who go around preaching

15

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:42 AM IY"H DAD2B Says:

This makes me sick to my stomach!! Who do these people think they are??? I’m married for 2 years and I don’t have any children yet, a number of weeks ago we got a letter that said this

"I am writing you because I realize what great parents you would be.

"I promise you that if you accept upon yourself to wear much longer skirts and to always dress in loose (even baggy) clothing whether pregnant or not, Hashem will bless you both with children.

"Dear husband, it is your obligation to compliment your wife on how beautiful she looks this way. As it is truly beautiful to keep her real beauty just for you personally.

"You will both be blessed by Hashem."

My wife sent it in to a local blog but what ells can I do? People are sick, and some people are just plain board and need a cause so they take up the most important cause in the word which is of course tznius!!! I say everyone should work on their “Bain Adom Lachavaro” it’s the A B C of Yiddishkite, unfortunately many of us don’t have it.

16

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:41 AM Son of Father & Holy Ghost Says:

These jew boys sound like a cult to me. How does one join? Is this part of the Hare Krishna's? Seventh Day Adventists?

17

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:41 AM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #8  
Anonymous Says:

If someone came into my home and started asking my wife about whether she goes to mikvah, I would kick him or her out on their duffs and tell them in no uncertain terms to NEVER come back on my property or approach any member of my mishapcha. How dare these people seek to impose their lifestyle or beliefs on others who don't want to hear their message. As a practical matter, we are shomrei torah umitzvot but strongly resent these fanatics from engaing in their evangelical efforts. I'd do the same to someone from Jew for Jesus if they started bothering my family.

No you wouldn’t! When Jeh.. Witnesses comes to your house you treat them nicely; you don’t kick them out on their duffs. That, is reserved only for Jews you disagree with.

18

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:38 AM Anonymous Says:

This is really not the way to do things.
It will just turn people off from yiddishkiet.
Even though I'm not Chabad I do admire there aproach.
Its all Ahavas Yisroel & example - encourging them to take small baby steps & do one more mitzvah

19

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:35 AM Anonymous Says:

Why did she allow these crazies into her home and once she realized their agenda, why didn't she kick them out and call the police rather than engaging them in dialogue or taking their flyers. Her actions only encourage them to keep tying to "convert" her.

20

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:32 AM Babishka Says:

This is nothing new. 30 years ago, when Romema was still a secular neighborhood, frum ladies from Kiryat Mattersdorf would visit and talk to the women about mikvah. You would actually be very surprised at how many "secular" women visit the mikvah.

21

 Sep 14, 2009 at 12:03 PM RJ Says:

I would also be filled with suspicion, foreboding and despair if Charedim would come to my neighborhood with Tznius flyers. It starts with flyers, before you know they're spraying bleach and raining spit on women who aren't dressed the way they like

22

 Sep 14, 2009 at 12:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
formally Says:

one must fight fire with fire.

Thew non religious should walk around with the least amount of cloths that their morals allow. And just ignore the people who are telling them to wear more clothing

I wouldnt call someone coming to your door "fire'. you dont have to open the door or allow anyone in. It is always preferable to be polite and explain you are not interested.

23

 Sep 14, 2009 at 12:32 PM Anonymous Says:

I am afraid! One day a secure Jew is knocking in my door trying to explain my wife: why not a little education? Don't believe your husband; when you really need help is it the rabbi or the doctor? So that behavior is dangerous!

24

 Sep 14, 2009 at 12:28 PM Yaff80 Says:

Whilst I strongly feel for tznius and tahras Hamishpacha, i feel more strongly that this is a classic case of "Yotso S'choroy b'hefsaidoy". No-one in their right frame of mind will be choizer biteshuva by imposing it on them. Yes if they decide on their own, encourage it etc, but to enter their domain and impose it, will make them more anti not less anti, creating A chillul Hashem of the highest order, not a Kiddush Hashem.
In english its called "MISSIONARY". This is what they do. Is it not?
What do you think?

25

 Sep 14, 2009 at 12:22 PM Anonymous Says:

although I think personally it is great to make more people frum, I can understand why they may be upset. Would anyone be offended if there was a door to door campaign in Meah Shearim trying to get people to go to a Greatful Dead concert, or asking to come to a Bialik poetry reading in Har Nof . Kiruv work is important, as long as it doesn't offend anyone. Oh yeah I forgot, our way is Leshem Shamayim and therefore anything we do is fine, and they are all a bunch of mechaleli shabbos so anything they would do is wrong.

26

 Sep 14, 2009 at 12:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:


I would like to pose a seroius question here:

Are these "Home Invadors" really doing the right thing or not?

In other words maybe there IS a chiyuv for Frum People to try and bring back as many yiddeshe Neshomos as possible. On the other hand maybe it's not our buisiness to bother others and let them live their lives as they wish as long as we lead by example.

Either way though, even if you hold that we do have a chiyuv to engage them, is THIS WAY the proper way according to ANYBODY??

I'm just wondering...

is this even a question chas vasulam you had a son lost wouldn't you thankfull for anybody that talks to your son and brings back your son HASHAM IS WAITING FOR ALL TO COME BACK LETS JOIN IN THE EFFORT

27

 Sep 14, 2009 at 12:19 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #22  
Anonymous Says:

I wouldnt call someone coming to your door "fire'. you dont have to open the door or allow anyone in. It is always preferable to be polite and explain you are not interested.

She means that “religion“ is fire. The Jewish soul or at least the Pintele Yid is on fire, and the only way to douse it is with anti religious fire.

BTW being polite is the key, no matter on which side of the door you're standing. Being rude will not get you anywhere.

28

 Sep 14, 2009 at 12:13 PM Anonymous Says:

The picture of the store in Yerushalayim has a caption that reads "A Jerusalem shop catering to ultra-Orthodox women displays the long-sleeve shirts and ankle-length skirts that women are required to wear according to Jewish law".
Sorry, but skirts for women do not have to be ankle-length, they only have to cover the knees when standing, sitting, walking ect (depending on the person it can range from about 3 to 4 inches below the knee, but you need to test this for yourself. this is not a psak.). I am ashamed at this "holier than thou" attitude where everyone has to hold to a higher chumra or halacha than their neighbor, even when it is unfounded. There are those who say ankle-length is untzniyus as it attracts attention more than slightly shorter lengths (still way below knees). We should work on the basic halacha, as it is written, before making it even more stringent.

29

 Sep 14, 2009 at 12:42 PM FVNMS Says:

Reply to #4  
MD Says:

This is obviously one of the many provocative, anti-chareidi articles in the secular media. Teltale signs include the fact that not a single person is identified by name. Everyone is anonymous. The Israeli media has been doing this for decades. Why not go to the Maariv website and register a protest!

Are you real an MD? Or you in Maryland? Whatever not the point. This is an article written by a chareidi; even poking fun at secular Jews. Take a deep breath and calm down.

30

 Sep 14, 2009 at 12:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Dovid Says:

Next time people object to chareidim moving to their neighborhood you will know why. Oh yes, it must be anti semitism

remember the frum where there before and yes when hitler ym"s came he killed also the nice kindly non observent jew yes this is anti semists

31

 Sep 14, 2009 at 12:37 PM Anonymous Says:

the taliban are coming,azoe vi sa goyisht zich azoei yiddish zicht

32

 Sep 14, 2009 at 12:37 PM Anonymous Says:

I think its great that people are hitting the streets to spread Dvar Hashem, However throwing it in peoples face is something else. Plus any talking of a womans mikvah habits (existant or not) is not modest. this is a matter b/t husband, wife and hashem. but to ask someone "do you go" (especially a stranger) that not tzniut

33

 Sep 14, 2009 at 12:36 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #11  
PMO Says:

Imagine if a PARTICULAR group of Palestinians were out rioting and protesting in Yerushalayim, committing arson, and attacking random cab drivers. I'd be scared if I saw them in my neighborhood and would problably answer the door with gun-in-hand.

I must say, that the same holds true here. Far too many of these people are violent. I know it is a minority, but it is enough that it gives me pause as well.

The funny thing is, many people reading this already have that same fear of African Americans in their neighborhoods (like Crown Heights). Even though they know that the overwhelming majority of them are fine, upstanding people, some still have this reaction. Why? EXPERIENCE.

That is the very problem with the behavior of these animals that have infiltrated the community. This is why chillul H" is such a big deal. Could you have ever imagined that other yidden would one day see chareidim as "ideologues" or "radicals", but they would actual begin to see us as a physical threat to their safety and the safety of their property?

THAT, my friends is the kind of damage that can take a generation or more to undo. Congratulations to the animals who have done this to us. You have robbed chilonim of any chance at a Torah life by pushing them away, and you have made the rest of our lives more difficult and created hatred towards us for no reason whatsoever. All you have done is PUSH yidden to run from Hashem and Torah. Every single aveiroh they do is on you.

You are mixing up “fear of religion” with “fear of people”. You have demonized people who stand up for the Shabbos as “violent” and “animals” as if their presence presents a danger to someone’s safety and their property, and now you believe your rhetoric. If I would talk myself into believing that the sheet on my bed is a ghost I would be afraid too. No my friend, every single aveiroh they do is on their backs and those attacking us.

Again Derocheho Darkei Noam, the right approach is with pleasantness, which if done the right way should be praised, not demonized. No where in this article does it say that they approached them any different then Lehavdil the Jeh... Witnesses. The perception is in the eye of the beholder.

34

 Sep 14, 2009 at 12:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
PMO Says:

Imagine if a PARTICULAR group of Palestinians were out rioting and protesting in Yerushalayim, committing arson, and attacking random cab drivers. I'd be scared if I saw them in my neighborhood and would problably answer the door with gun-in-hand.

I must say, that the same holds true here. Far too many of these people are violent. I know it is a minority, but it is enough that it gives me pause as well.

The funny thing is, many people reading this already have that same fear of African Americans in their neighborhoods (like Crown Heights). Even though they know that the overwhelming majority of them are fine, upstanding people, some still have this reaction. Why? EXPERIENCE.

That is the very problem with the behavior of these animals that have infiltrated the community. This is why chillul H" is such a big deal. Could you have ever imagined that other yidden would one day see chareidim as "ideologues" or "radicals", but they would actual begin to see us as a physical threat to their safety and the safety of their property?

THAT, my friends is the kind of damage that can take a generation or more to undo. Congratulations to the animals who have done this to us. You have robbed chilonim of any chance at a Torah life by pushing them away, and you have made the rest of our lives more difficult and created hatred towards us for no reason whatsoever. All you have done is PUSH yidden to run from Hashem and Torah. Every single aveiroh they do is on you.

your comparison of what you say "I know it is a minority" to "group of PAlestanians ..comitting arson"

35

 Sep 14, 2009 at 12:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #24  
Yaff80 Says:

Whilst I strongly feel for tznius and tahras Hamishpacha, i feel more strongly that this is a classic case of "Yotso S'choroy b'hefsaidoy". No-one in their right frame of mind will be choizer biteshuva by imposing it on them. Yes if they decide on their own, encourage it etc, but to enter their domain and impose it, will make them more anti not less anti, creating A chillul Hashem of the highest order, not a Kiddush Hashem.
In english its called "MISSIONARY". This is what they do. Is it not?
What do you think?

kol yisroel ariviem seh lseh yes we are missionary we are not asshammed we are working to get back every jewish soul to frum judisim

36

 Sep 14, 2009 at 12:49 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #20  
Babishka Says:

This is nothing new. 30 years ago, when Romema was still a secular neighborhood, frum ladies from Kiryat Mattersdorf would visit and talk to the women about mikvah. You would actually be very surprised at how many "secular" women visit the mikvah.

Who told you that they came the same way like this women did. Maybe they went step by step and didn't tell them go dressed like this or like that

37

 Sep 14, 2009 at 12:55 PM MDshweks Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:


I would like to pose a seroius question here:

Are these "Home Invadors" really doing the right thing or not?

In other words maybe there IS a chiyuv for Frum People to try and bring back as many yiddeshe Neshomos as possible. On the other hand maybe it's not our buisiness to bother others and let them live their lives as they wish as long as we lead by example.

Either way though, even if you hold that we do have a chiyuv to engage them, is THIS WAY the proper way according to ANYBODY??

I'm just wondering...

Well, the fact is this method works well in Eretz Yisroel, and while the medeia will find a few who are irritateed by it, there's a very big success rate in people rediscovering their roots this way.

38

 Sep 14, 2009 at 12:54 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
IY"H DAD2B Says:

This makes me sick to my stomach!! Who do these people think they are??? I’m married for 2 years and I don’t have any children yet, a number of weeks ago we got a letter that said this

"I am writing you because I realize what great parents you would be.

"I promise you that if you accept upon yourself to wear much longer skirts and to always dress in loose (even baggy) clothing whether pregnant or not, Hashem will bless you both with children.

"Dear husband, it is your obligation to compliment your wife on how beautiful she looks this way. As it is truly beautiful to keep her real beauty just for you personally.

"You will both be blessed by Hashem."

My wife sent it in to a local blog but what ells can I do? People are sick, and some people are just plain board and need a cause so they take up the most important cause in the word which is of course tznius!!! I say everyone should work on their “Bain Adom Lachavaro” it’s the A B C of Yiddishkite, unfortunately many of us don’t have it.

dont you see its much easier for them to work on your tznius then there bad midos

39

 Sep 14, 2009 at 01:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
IY"H DAD2B Says:

This makes me sick to my stomach!! Who do these people think they are??? I’m married for 2 years and I don’t have any children yet, a number of weeks ago we got a letter that said this

"I am writing you because I realize what great parents you would be.

"I promise you that if you accept upon yourself to wear much longer skirts and to always dress in loose (even baggy) clothing whether pregnant or not, Hashem will bless you both with children.

"Dear husband, it is your obligation to compliment your wife on how beautiful she looks this way. As it is truly beautiful to keep her real beauty just for you personally.

"You will both be blessed by Hashem."

My wife sent it in to a local blog but what ells can I do? People are sick, and some people are just plain board and need a cause so they take up the most important cause in the word which is of course tznius!!! I say everyone should work on their “Bain Adom Lachavaro” it’s the A B C of Yiddishkite, unfortunately many of us don’t have it.

In all honesty, if someone gave me a letter like that, I'd probably scream & resort to physical violence. I've had 2 miscarriages & quite frankly, anyone who dares to suggest that my dressing like a slob would help me get pregnant is beneath contempt & needs to be punished.

40

 Sep 14, 2009 at 01:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

The picture of the store in Yerushalayim has a caption that reads "A Jerusalem shop catering to ultra-Orthodox women displays the long-sleeve shirts and ankle-length skirts that women are required to wear according to Jewish law".
Sorry, but skirts for women do not have to be ankle-length, they only have to cover the knees when standing, sitting, walking ect (depending on the person it can range from about 3 to 4 inches below the knee, but you need to test this for yourself. this is not a psak.). I am ashamed at this "holier than thou" attitude where everyone has to hold to a higher chumra or halacha than their neighbor, even when it is unfounded. There are those who say ankle-length is untzniyus as it attracts attention more than slightly shorter lengths (still way below knees). We should work on the basic halacha, as it is written, before making it even more stringent.

Thank you for pointing that out. I noticed a few years ago (in NYC) that women were wearing skirts dragging on the ground. I still don't get it.

41

 Sep 14, 2009 at 01:35 PM Anonymous Says:

i would say the husband should agree to these perverts that his wife use the mikva if he can be the towel boy

42

 Sep 14, 2009 at 01:31 PM Pashuteh Yid Says:

Reply to #5  
Anonymous Says:


I would like to pose a seroius question here:

Are these "Home Invadors" really doing the right thing or not?

In other words maybe there IS a chiyuv for Frum People to try and bring back as many yiddeshe Neshomos as possible. On the other hand maybe it's not our buisiness to bother others and let them live their lives as they wish as long as we lead by example.

Either way though, even if you hold that we do have a chiyuv to engage them, is THIS WAY the proper way according to ANYBODY??

I'm just wondering...

Good questions. While the goal of increasing mitzvah observance among our brethren is a worthy one, this is not the way to do it.

If one believes tznius and mikvah are a proper way to live, then be prepared to explain it rationally and teach by example what advantage there is for a secular person to adopt them.

Simply going into somebody's house will more likely turn them off and unsult their intelligence more than anything else.

Imagine if some Moonies came to your house dressed in white robes with shaved heads and passed out Moonie literature telling you that G-d says that Moonism is the best way to live, and they will offer to give you a haircut right then and there and a free robe. Nobody would pay a drop of attention to them and would find them rather annoying. This is the same thing these chareidim are doing.

You need to find a way of kiruv which doesn't insult people's intelligence and which demonstrates that you yourself have enough intelligence to present an intelligent case for Torah. Making a total fool out of oneself doesn't uplift the Torah in the eyes of anybody. If you can't even understand basic manners and respect for another human being, how will you possibly be intelligent enough to convince a sophisticated and educated secular person of your point of view.

43

 Sep 14, 2009 at 01:30 PM Anonymous Says:

I seem to recall learning about the bracha "Mah-tovu ohalecha Ya'akov" - the letters in that phrase have no open sides facing each other, reflecting the respect for personal space that B"nai Yisrael gives to each other. This "campaign" seems to have ignored that concept.

44

 Sep 14, 2009 at 01:10 PM Anonymous Says:

It is not the business of ANY other yid whether or not my wife goes to mikvah. Her personal and spiritual hygieine is a matter for her and our rebbe.

45

 Sep 14, 2009 at 01:10 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #35  
Anonymous Says:

kol yisroel ariviem seh lseh yes we are missionary we are not asshammed we are working to get back every jewish soul to frum judisim

But on the same time they are missionaries as well. They are much more educated than us. So please behave.

46

 Sep 14, 2009 at 01:06 PM Raphael Kaufman Says:

Reply to #33  
Askupeh Says:

You are mixing up “fear of religion” with “fear of people”. You have demonized people who stand up for the Shabbos as “violent” and “animals” as if their presence presents a danger to someone’s safety and their property, and now you believe your rhetoric. If I would talk myself into believing that the sheet on my bed is a ghost I would be afraid too. No my friend, every single aveiroh they do is on their backs and those attacking us.

Again Derocheho Darkei Noam, the right approach is with pleasantness, which if done the right way should be praised, not demonized. No where in this article does it say that they approached them any different then Lehavdil the Jeh... Witnesses. The perception is in the eye of the beholder.

While the reported campaign seems well intentioned and worthwhile, there is a problem of context. Here in the U.S. such a campaign in non-religious neighborhoods would be, at worst, mildly annoying, like the Witnesses and Mormons who ring your doorbell when you're, shall we say, indisposed. In Israel, however, Chareidim are perceived by the non-religious and even the non chareidi Torah community as posing an actual physical threat, a perception that, unfortunately, has a basis in fact. Given that reality, I am not suprised at the heated negative responses of some of the posters.

47

 Sep 14, 2009 at 01:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #23  
Anonymous Says:

I am afraid! One day a secure Jew is knocking in my door trying to explain my wife: why not a little education? Don't believe your husband; when you really need help is it the rabbi or the doctor? So that behavior is dangerous!

I would be proud to say: no! To be a frum yidena education is not the priority. When I need a Docter I will pay and my children will not be educated they will study the Torah.

48

 Sep 14, 2009 at 01:52 PM Robert Says:

maybe its time to take a rule from the playbook of our cousins the arabs...

first, we should consider women covering up completely as in burkhas, certainly when they travel in public..
secondly, maybe women should not be allowed out of the home unless escorted by a male relative..
if these non jews can show so much tzeneius, kal vachomer maybe we should learn from them..
the halacha of tzeneiut is complex.. societal norms do play a part and in that part of the world maybe the chareidim should be machmir and cover up at least as much as the arabs..

49

 Sep 14, 2009 at 02:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #43  
Anonymous Says:

I seem to recall learning about the bracha "Mah-tovu ohalecha Ya'akov" - the letters in that phrase have no open sides facing each other, reflecting the respect for personal space that B"nai Yisrael gives to each other. This "campaign" seems to have ignored that concept.

I never knew what bilom der bal chota umachta had in mind saying this words oh did you say good bilom mend what you just said

50

 Sep 14, 2009 at 02:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #45  
Anonymous Says:

But on the same time they are missionaries as well. They are much more educated than us. So please behave.

please explain what are you trying to say

51

 Sep 14, 2009 at 02:32 PM malach Says:

"A Jerusalem shop catering to ultra-Orthodox women displays the long-sleeve shirts and ankle-length skirts that women are required to wear according to Jewish law. File Photo"
Sorry, I am dati leumi, living in Israel, and there is no halacha that says a woman should wear floor length skirts and long sleeves. This is all minhag. If the haredi choose to do their minhag this way that is their choice, but it is not normative halacha, does not follow the Talmud, and they have no place going into other neighborhoods and pushing their point of view like Jehovah's Witnesses. In fact, doing this is very unJewish as one is supposed to leave the minhag of the neighborhoiod intact.

52

 Sep 14, 2009 at 02:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #35  
Anonymous Says:

kol yisroel ariviem seh lseh yes we are missionary we are not asshammed we are working to get back every jewish soul to frum judisim

“kol yisroel ariviem seh lseh yes we are missionary we are not asshammed we are working to get back every jewish soul to frum judisim"

You may not be "asshammed" (whatever that means) but no normal yid would go knocking on a stranger's door asking the wife if she went to mikvah. I would do, as most other posters on this article have done, and firmly slammed the door on this woman with the chutzpah to come asking intimate questions.

53

 Sep 14, 2009 at 02:50 PM Anonymous Says:

all you apikorsim do not believe in the mitzva of hochayach tochiyach, or did you decide that the non religious are not bechlal amisecha? either way, being a sonay tochacha will keep you on the right path----to hell!

54

 Sep 14, 2009 at 02:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #50  
Anonymous Says:

please explain what are you trying to say

simple. You would loose in a debate with a secular Jew, because they are much more educated than us. So it's not the best thing for us being missionaries!

55

 Sep 14, 2009 at 02:39 PM Be Blessed Says:

May father 2B (no 15) and no 39 be blessed with healthy children soon and all those others praying for children. Bring them up with love of Hashem and his people.

56

 Sep 14, 2009 at 02:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #51  
malach Says:

"A Jerusalem shop catering to ultra-Orthodox women displays the long-sleeve shirts and ankle-length skirts that women are required to wear according to Jewish law. File Photo"
Sorry, I am dati leumi, living in Israel, and there is no halacha that says a woman should wear floor length skirts and long sleeves. This is all minhag. If the haredi choose to do their minhag this way that is their choice, but it is not normative halacha, does not follow the Talmud, and they have no place going into other neighborhoods and pushing their point of view like Jehovah's Witnesses. In fact, doing this is very unJewish as one is supposed to leave the minhag of the neighborhoiod intact.

please read the article again it seems that you didn't get it

57

 Sep 14, 2009 at 03:02 PM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #46  
Raphael Kaufman Says:

While the reported campaign seems well intentioned and worthwhile, there is a problem of context. Here in the U.S. such a campaign in non-religious neighborhoods would be, at worst, mildly annoying, like the Witnesses and Mormons who ring your doorbell when you're, shall we say, indisposed. In Israel, however, Chareidim are perceived by the non-religious and even the non chareidi Torah community as posing an actual physical threat, a perception that, unfortunately, has a basis in fact. Given that reality, I am not suprised at the heated negative responses of some of the posters.

Although I appreciate the tone of your comment, I must strongly disagree with you on this. I have been to Israel many times and my observation is that the non-religious are terrified of the religious; but NOT physically (as they still have the majority) but spiritually. They know that when the religious will get into power, Eretz Yisroel will look a lot different. That’s why, every Israeli government has worked overtime to bring as many non religious Jews to Israel as possible; to dilute the power of the religious.

I’ll talk a piece of my mind even if it won’t be popular with those who usually agree with me; that I shudder to think what will happen when the religious will get all of the power. How do religious people run a secular democracy? How do religious people put people in jail without a proper Beis Din? Every aspect of daily life is fraught with so many Halachic questions. Will they turn it into a Theocracy? The only answer is Moshiach. Without him I can’t see it work.

58

 Sep 14, 2009 at 03:40 PM FVNMS Says:

Reply to #57  
Askupeh Says:

Although I appreciate the tone of your comment, I must strongly disagree with you on this. I have been to Israel many times and my observation is that the non-religious are terrified of the religious; but NOT physically (as they still have the majority) but spiritually. They know that when the religious will get into power, Eretz Yisroel will look a lot different. That’s why, every Israeli government has worked overtime to bring as many non religious Jews to Israel as possible; to dilute the power of the religious.

I’ll talk a piece of my mind even if it won’t be popular with those who usually agree with me; that I shudder to think what will happen when the religious will get all of the power. How do religious people run a secular democracy? How do religious people put people in jail without a proper Beis Din? Every aspect of daily life is fraught with so many Halachic questions. Will they turn it into a Theocracy? The only answer is Moshiach. Without him I can’t see it work.

You and me must have been separated at birth.

59

 Sep 14, 2009 at 03:39 PM OOlala Says:

The husband was cool - unfortunately they asked for it and they got it

60

 Sep 14, 2009 at 03:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #57  
Askupeh Says:

Although I appreciate the tone of your comment, I must strongly disagree with you on this. I have been to Israel many times and my observation is that the non-religious are terrified of the religious; but NOT physically (as they still have the majority) but spiritually. They know that when the religious will get into power, Eretz Yisroel will look a lot different. That’s why, every Israeli government has worked overtime to bring as many non religious Jews to Israel as possible; to dilute the power of the religious.

I’ll talk a piece of my mind even if it won’t be popular with those who usually agree with me; that I shudder to think what will happen when the religious will get all of the power. How do religious people run a secular democracy? How do religious people put people in jail without a proper Beis Din? Every aspect of daily life is fraught with so many Halachic questions. Will they turn it into a Theocracy? The only answer is Moshiach. Without him I can’t see it work.

"I shudder to think what will happen when the religious will get all of the power. How do religious people run a secular democracy?"

Not to worry. B'yirtzah hashem, there is a zero liklihood that the religious fanatics would ever get "all the power:". The good news is that there is so much internal conflict and hatred among the various religious parties that like the tzadik we have for mayor in yerushalayim, we will always have a secular government. As to wishing for the coming of Moishiach, if that makes you think the Gerer Chassidim would allow their daughters to marry a Vishnitz, or C'V a Bobover, than you must have a really overactive imagination.

61

 Sep 14, 2009 at 03:27 PM Anonymous Says:

WHH
The Jerusalem shop photo which is captioned "Displaying the long sleeves and long skirts the ultra orthodox are required to wear..." made me laugh out loud. No ultra orthodox woman would be seen in there, strictly speaking it caters to the modernite, or teenage type look. It is a well known and large store at the top of Rechov Malchai Yisroel in Geulah. Go see for yourselves. It is for the fashion conscious very little discretionary income sector. NOT FOR THE ULTRA ORTHODOX!!! Listen here my fellow Americans, do not believe what you read! very likely it all comes from sheker, the same way that photo does.

62

 Sep 14, 2009 at 03:27 PM Anonymous Says:

I have no problem as long as the Charedim also accept that in a free marketplace of ideas, secular, reform or modern orthodox Jews can knock on their door, make the case that that they have mistaken the peasant culture of 18th century Europe and the misogynistic influence of extremist Islam for true yiddishkeit and invite them to a shabbat picnic by the ocean in the true spirit of kedusah.

63

 Sep 14, 2009 at 03:24 PM Getzel the Pretzel Says:

R' Eliyahu Lopian ZT"L made a powerful point. We do not blow the shofar on Shabbos Rosh Hashanah because shem yaavor 4 amos b'rishus harabbim. So we are afraid that one person will be chotah so klal yisroel will not blow the shofar, even though the gemara says kol shlo tokin brashina etc. Despite the danger of not blowing shofar, chazal considered it more important that 1 yachid does not do an aveirah.

Same here, it is important that one person dresses b'tznius. Of course this must be done the right way. The metaphorical spin of this article is questionable.

64

 Sep 14, 2009 at 03:47 PM Yankee Says:

Reply to #25  
Anonymous Says:

although I think personally it is great to make more people frum, I can understand why they may be upset. Would anyone be offended if there was a door to door campaign in Meah Shearim trying to get people to go to a Greatful Dead concert, or asking to come to a Bialik poetry reading in Har Nof . Kiruv work is important, as long as it doesn't offend anyone. Oh yeah I forgot, our way is Leshem Shamayim and therefore anything we do is fine, and they are all a bunch of mechaleli shabbos so anything they would do is wrong.

sounds like you have your head on backwards. When you start comparing Mivtzoyim to greatful dead, you know it's time to check into a looney home

65

 Sep 14, 2009 at 03:54 PM Torah Truth Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

what a kidush hasham yes there are still jewish men and women fighting for hasham may they be blased

Kiddush HaShem? Do you really think there is a single person that will change because of these flyers? This is not only stupid it is harmeful to being Meharev anyone and may actually be a Chilul HaShem. Heart is in the right place... just wish the brains were too....

66

 Sep 14, 2009 at 03:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

There is nothing wrong with doing Kiruv. However it has be done in a non provacotive way.

Charedim never cared for Kiruv nor can you call this an effort of Kiruv. This is radicalism that believes their way and mission is the right one and that everyone must listen to their message. If they care about whose wife went to the mikva or there is a crisis of impure women running around in their community, let them announce it in their shuls. No need to send these flyers like Mormons do annoying people.

67

 Sep 14, 2009 at 04:41 PM Anonymous Says:

There are plenty of people who will change because of these flyers, and that's why this couple is so afraid. Deep down they feel guilty and know the kiruv people have a point.

68

 Sep 14, 2009 at 05:43 PM Anonymous Says:

reply to #66 who besides chareidim do kiruv? your type is mekarev to hell!

69

 Sep 14, 2009 at 05:31 PM Raisy Says:

Reply to #15  
IY"H DAD2B Says:

This makes me sick to my stomach!! Who do these people think they are??? I’m married for 2 years and I don’t have any children yet, a number of weeks ago we got a letter that said this

"I am writing you because I realize what great parents you would be.

"I promise you that if you accept upon yourself to wear much longer skirts and to always dress in loose (even baggy) clothing whether pregnant or not, Hashem will bless you both with children.

"Dear husband, it is your obligation to compliment your wife on how beautiful she looks this way. As it is truly beautiful to keep her real beauty just for you personally.

"You will both be blessed by Hashem."

My wife sent it in to a local blog but what ells can I do? People are sick, and some people are just plain board and need a cause so they take up the most important cause in the word which is of course tznius!!! I say everyone should work on their “Bain Adom Lachavaro” it’s the A B C of Yiddishkite, unfortunately many of us don’t have it.

Tznius has a 'bein adam l'chaveiro' component (to the writer who claims people should work on their bein adam l'chaveiro). For G-d fearing men it is incumbent to keep their eyes away from provocative sights; but an immodestly dressed woman makes this hard for them. Is that called 'loving your neighbor'?

70

 Sep 14, 2009 at 05:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #65  
Torah Truth Says:

Kiddush HaShem? Do you really think there is a single person that will change because of these flyers? This is not only stupid it is harmeful to being Meharev anyone and may actually be a Chilul HaShem. Heart is in the right place... just wish the brains were too....

what chilal hasham did you learn what means a chulal hasham

71

 Sep 14, 2009 at 05:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #65  
Torah Truth Says:

Kiddush HaShem? Do you really think there is a single person that will change because of these flyers? This is not only stupid it is harmeful to being Meharev anyone and may actually be a Chilul HaShem. Heart is in the right place... just wish the brains were too....

oh does it help it seems that you never were involved in kiruv thousands have been bought back this way all that mock this holy women are just affraid from yiddishkeid

72

 Sep 14, 2009 at 05:20 PM Anonymous Says:

There is nothing wrong with trying to "sell" someone else what you think is right. To be successful, the pitch must be skillful, respectful, and convincing. The attempts will fail when they cross the line by becoming too paternalistic, offensive, or uninformed.

By all means, we are a people who engage in conversation and debate. Everyone, secular or frum, tries to live in a way which they believe to be true. We should not be afraid of *trying* to help others, but we must always realize that coercion and poor derech eretz are not acceptable.

73

 Sep 14, 2009 at 05:53 PM Anonymous Says:

reply to #66 who besides chareidim do kiruv? your type is mekarev to hell!

74

 Sep 14, 2009 at 06:04 PM Miss Williamsburg Says:

Reply to #9  
Dovid Says:

Next time people object to chareidim moving to their neighborhood you will know why. Oh yes, it must be anti semitism

I didn't read through all the comments but just wanted to reply to yours.
I don't think it's fair to generalize and stereotype. I am Chassidish, living in Williamsburg. I am a very big advocate for live and let live. I embrace all types of people and get along with all kinds. I don't think it's fair to generalize on all Charedim, which includes me when I wouldn't engage in the behavior that these fanatics do.
Perhaps the term Charedim should be attached to people like me and not to these fanatics. After all, they are a small minority as much as they are in the news nowadays.
Of course I would want my fellow Jew to live a Torah lifestyle. But I would only do it by being a living example, by behaving in a manner that would encourage respect and interest in our way of life. So there you go David, I think I'd make a great neighbor to anyone.

75

 Sep 14, 2009 at 07:32 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #33  
Askupeh Says:

You are mixing up “fear of religion” with “fear of people”. You have demonized people who stand up for the Shabbos as “violent” and “animals” as if their presence presents a danger to someone’s safety and their property, and now you believe your rhetoric. If I would talk myself into believing that the sheet on my bed is a ghost I would be afraid too. No my friend, every single aveiroh they do is on their backs and those attacking us.

Again Derocheho Darkei Noam, the right approach is with pleasantness, which if done the right way should be praised, not demonized. No where in this article does it say that they approached them any different then Lehavdil the Jeh... Witnesses. The perception is in the eye of the beholder.

I should have been more clear. My point is that these women were doing nothing wrong at all, but their jobs were made MUCH harder as a result of a few violent criminals. Nobody wants to hear what we have to say when they fear that we will come to their neighborhood and commit arson, violent assault and vandalism.

What these women were doing was the right thing. Go to someone's home and introduce yourself. Tell them what you are about (without being pushy) and invite them to come to you. I applaud this women and I am disgusted at how a handful of animals dressed up like us have put all of us in this horrible position.

As someone involved in kiruv, I can tell you that what these animals do drives countless yidden FURTHER away. Parents are afraid to let their children come to youth programs because they think that everyone who dresses this way is a violent fundamentalist. The "fear of religion" is something I can work with.... the fear of me because I look like one of these animals is 10 times harder.

76

 Sep 14, 2009 at 07:02 PM Torah Truth Says:

Reply to #71  
Anonymous Says:

oh does it help it seems that you never were involved in kiruv thousands have been bought back this way all that mock this holy women are just affraid from yiddishkeid

I am actually very involved in Kiruv and have been for over 40 years. And I can tell you first hand that this does not work and is counter-productive. Your comment that "thousands" have been brought back to Yiddiskeit using these heavy handed tactics just shows how far removed from reality you are.

77

 Sep 14, 2009 at 07:56 PM Anonymous Says:

Jewish people knocking on other Jewish people's doors to hand out flyers teaching Yiddishkeit is neither fanatical nor coercion. Whether it works or not is debatable, but there's certainly nothing wrong with it. I bet the people "missionizing" are nice and soft-spoken, and the seculars are just acting out their guilt or deep-rooted hatred for Chareidim. Many of these seculars have never been exposed to the basics of Judaism, and there's no reason why this new approach can't be tried.

78

 Sep 14, 2009 at 08:23 PM Anonymous Says:

This demonstrates the dangers of untrained people doing kiruv. First of all, especially on issues as sensitive as tznius and mikvah, it is very important to have the right approach and to use the right language, Otherwise there is a serious risk of misunderstanding with the result of pushing the person away rather than attracting them. Second, it is not advisable for untrained people to go door to door, especially these days when Chareidim have been so much in the news in a negative light.

The topics chosen are also not "introductory" kiruv topics. A person who does not yet have a basic understanding of Yiddishkeit will not understand what they are about. Mikvah is particularly hard to explain, and should never be brought up until the person is genuinely interested. Remember, a person who has never been approached has the potential for kiruv. A person who has been approached in the wrong way is turned off - probably permanently.

Leave kiruv to the ones who are trained to do it. Support Yad L'Achim or similar organizations, but don't try to "do it yourself" unless someone you already know starts asking you (and even then it's wise to consult with someone about how best to answer).

79

 Sep 14, 2009 at 08:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #77  
Anonymous Says:

Jewish people knocking on other Jewish people's doors to hand out flyers teaching Yiddishkeit is neither fanatical nor coercion. Whether it works or not is debatable, but there's certainly nothing wrong with it. I bet the people "missionizing" are nice and soft-spoken, and the seculars are just acting out their guilt or deep-rooted hatred for Chareidim. Many of these seculars have never been exposed to the basics of Judaism, and there's no reason why this new approach can't be tried.

If people have not been exposed to the basics of judaism as you say, then telling women they have to hide behind layers of clothes and not touch their husbands for one-half of the month is not a good place to start. First you have to convince someone of the truth and beauty of judaism starting with the guidelines of how to treat each other to build a kinder, better society. Why not start by dropping off a bottle of wine and flowers or candles and a loaf of challah on a Friday afternoon, together with a pamphlet about shabbos, and wishing people a good shabbos.

80

 Sep 14, 2009 at 08:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Get real! Chareidim are always painted in a negative light. There are also plenty of novices who are great at kiruv, and all "professionals" were novices at one time.

81

 Sep 14, 2009 at 08:18 PM Shaul in Monsey Says:

This in your face brand of farfrumptkeit has no basis in Torah. The chareidi that do this learned their shenanigans from mormons and Jews for J. No where in the Torah is there a call to arms for taliban tactics of making people more "frum."

IMHO this shows a lack of kovod habriyos, a lack of derech eretz and is behavior that is meakeiv the geulah. No yid is qualified to judge another yid. If the chareidi like that system let them baptize themselves at the nearest church. Torah true judaism means you do not judge others, you worry about yourself. For all these morons know the couple in the article get more schar for whatever they do than these idiots do for all that they do.

Stop judging others and worry about yourself.

82

 Sep 14, 2009 at 08:06 PM Anonymous Says:

For all those who think that what these kannoim are doing is a good idea---what if instead of pushing their interpretation of tznius, they were attacking your wives and daughters for not following their rebbe (that is, your rebbe wasn't good enough).

In this case, maybe they are successful for 1% (if that much), but in the meantime, they turn off a lot of yidden (including those raised frum).

Also, it doesn't take a genius to see that this type of behavior doesn't make someone a desirable neighbor. Think about that the next time a frum family wants to move into a nicer or more affordable neighborhood in Israel---the secular, the dati/leumi, the masorati Jew won't want them.

83

 Sep 14, 2009 at 09:56 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #76  
Torah Truth Says:

I am actually very involved in Kiruv and have been for over 40 years. And I can tell you first hand that this does not work and is counter-productive. Your comment that "thousands" have been brought back to Yiddiskeit using these heavy handed tactics just shows how far removed from reality you are.

if you read an article not knowing any details and saying what you said after being in this line 40 years I am realy shocked

84

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:37 PM Anonymous Says:

Live and let live.

85

 Sep 15, 2009 at 05:06 AM Anonymous Says:

What is the harm in this? Greenpeace has come to my door, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, a local restaurant, a company which made replacement windows. I just say no. The two Mormon boys I invited in for drinks of water because it was a hot day.

86

 Sep 15, 2009 at 02:22 AM YitzchokAizik Says:

wouldn't you be upset if someone knocks in your door and says that your black hat bothers him?

87

 Sep 14, 2009 at 11:47 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #84  
Anonymous Says:

Live and let live.

That's not true,your supposed to be mekarev yidden.The inyan of kiruv falls under" lo tammod al dam raeicah",accoarding to the gedolim.Imagine seeing someone bleeding on the street and saying love and let live and walk away.

88

 Sep 15, 2009 at 09:42 AM Moriya Says:

For decades, Chabad has knocked on doors and stopped strangers on the street in order to enable them to do mitzvos. More recently, Lev L'Achim, a Litvishe organization, finally got on the bandwagon and they have their kollel guys knocking on strangers' doors too to ask secular Jews if they want to learn Torah. As a result, countless Jews have committed to mitzva observance whether partially or completely.

Look up the "Roving Rabbis" blog on chabad's website and you will read the most amazing, moving stories about Lubavitcher bachurim who travel to out-of-the-way locations every summer solely for the purpose of finding Jews and reminding them that they are Jews.

From the comments to this article, it seems that many people are ignorant of how successful these encounters are. Many secular Israelis have registered their children for religious schools, have put up mezuzos, have welcomed holiday gifts (matza, mishloach manos etc.) and information about Judaism and have agreed to learn Torah because of these housecalls.

As for mikva, in Israel, in order to be legally married, the bride must go to the mikva and so mikva is not a foreign concept to them.

Kol ha'kavod to these women who actually care about their fellow Jews. The "live and let live" attitude which is praised by many in the comments is a secular concept. In Judaism we care about our fellow Jews. I bet that those of you who responded so derogatorily and said how badly you would treat these women if they came knocking, would have far more respect for a Fuller Brush or Amway salesman. You wouldn't say, "What a chutzpa! Wanting to know if I need brushes! Scram!"

89

 Sep 15, 2009 at 09:35 AM malach Says:

Reply to #56  
Anonymous Says:

please read the article again it seems that you didn't get it

I got it very clearly. Maybe you're the one who didn't get it. Haredi clothing styles are not the sole expression of normative Judaism. There are many varieties of normative Judaism in clothing styles which fulfill halacha. Read talmudic and later sources. There is an article by Rav Henkin online which outlines the women's tzuniut issue from a Jewish scholarly perspective. It's not a case of "the longer the better" in which instance the endpoint is chas v'shalom the Taliban and burkhas, about which I have defended the haredim against critics who actually do have a point, sad to say. Further these women have no business knocking on people's doors to pitch their point of view. If situations were reversed, how do you thik the folks in Mea Shearim would react if a woman came to the door in pedal pushers, jangly jewelry, a tank top and very high heels and started pitching the secular dress style? Huh? It is totally inappropriate. Even the Lubavitchers, who are known for kiruv, don't go from door to door i n secular neighborhoods.

90

 Sep 15, 2009 at 09:33 AM Don't trip over your hem! Says:

Reply to #40  
Anonymous Says:

Thank you for pointing that out. I noticed a few years ago (in NYC) that women were wearing skirts dragging on the ground. I still don't get it.

I think somehow girls feel they need to trip over their hems or clean the floor with their skirts in the name of "style". Why they think this is a nice style I don't know. Or maybe they're too lazy to shorten their skirts. One size doesn't fit all, you know. When I get a skirt that is too long, I shorten it.

91

 Sep 15, 2009 at 10:04 AM PMO Says:

Reply to #85  
Anonymous Says:

What is the harm in this? Greenpeace has come to my door, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, a local restaurant, a company which made replacement windows. I just say no. The two Mormon boys I invited in for drinks of water because it was a hot day.

This in reply to #85 and #87

You are 100% correct. While in my experience starting with things like mikvah and tznius are not at all effective, these women were basically doing it right. To knock on someone's door and introduce yourself is fine. To hand someone a pamphlet is fine. The issue here is whether or not someone should be afraid when they see what appears to be "fundamentalists" at their door.

With all the horrible violence perpetrated by a small group of chareidim lately, how is anyone supposed to know which "type" is showing up at their door. How do I know he/she is not here to beat up my wife because her ankles weren't covered to their liking. Perhaps their pamphlet is really a warning to do what they say or face violent consequences from tznius squads.

The fears that these secular people have are very real, and thanks to a few animals in chareidi clothing, their fears have found solid justification.

Now you know how other groups, like African Americans and Muslims feel. We all know that the overwhelming majority of us are non-violent. We all know that most of us would never commit arson, or assault a police office with rocks, or vandalize someone's property, or attack cab drivers with axes in the street, or beat a woman up for not wearing the right kind of skirt. But how is someone looking at us as a group supposed to know who is who. Eventually they will avoid us altogether. Eventually they will begin to actively keep us out of their communities out of a legitimate fear.

For those of us involved in kiruv, we all know and agree that this has made our jobs harder... especially on the youth front and these animals will have to answer for the damage they have done to K"Y.

92

 Sep 15, 2009 at 10:24 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #91  
PMO Says:

This in reply to #85 and #87

You are 100% correct. While in my experience starting with things like mikvah and tznius are not at all effective, these women were basically doing it right. To knock on someone's door and introduce yourself is fine. To hand someone a pamphlet is fine. The issue here is whether or not someone should be afraid when they see what appears to be "fundamentalists" at their door.

With all the horrible violence perpetrated by a small group of chareidim lately, how is anyone supposed to know which "type" is showing up at their door. How do I know he/she is not here to beat up my wife because her ankles weren't covered to their liking. Perhaps their pamphlet is really a warning to do what they say or face violent consequences from tznius squads.

The fears that these secular people have are very real, and thanks to a few animals in chareidi clothing, their fears have found solid justification.

Now you know how other groups, like African Americans and Muslims feel. We all know that the overwhelming majority of us are non-violent. We all know that most of us would never commit arson, or assault a police office with rocks, or vandalize someone's property, or attack cab drivers with axes in the street, or beat a woman up for not wearing the right kind of skirt. But how is someone looking at us as a group supposed to know who is who. Eventually they will avoid us altogether. Eventually they will begin to actively keep us out of their communities out of a legitimate fear.

For those of us involved in kiruv, we all know and agree that this has made our jobs harder... especially on the youth front and these animals will have to answer for the damage they have done to K"Y.

Well,first of all such a reaction would have probaly happend before the violence.Besides, MK moshe gafni,who is currently the leading ashkenazy chareidi lawmaker condemmed it in public more than once(i mean besides the interveiw),as well as jerusalrem senior deputy mayor pindros(degel hatorah),so they should know it's not the mainstream, by any means.(they are taking a big risk ,they can be attacked).Of course the media is doing a good job,painting it as all chareidim,which they do not do by the arabs.p.s.the ax incident is a fabrication, accoarding to secular reporter nachum byrna of yedditot,it was actually a non chareidi gang.

93

 Sep 15, 2009 at 10:12 AM malach Says:

Reply to #87  
Anonymous Says:

That's not true,your supposed to be mekarev yidden.The inyan of kiruv falls under" lo tammod al dam raeicah",accoarding to the gedolim.Imagine seeing someone bleeding on the street and saying love and let live and walk away.

You are writing tiflut. There is no talmudic or other scholarly injunction to knock on everyone's door just in case they may have had an accident inside. Do you actually go around hunting in apartment buildings and knocking on doors just to prove you're not ignoring your brother's blood?
Further it seems that many of the posters here are from chutz. Things are just not the same in EY. I don't know who these Jewish misguided missionaries are, but they could very well start --to more benefit--with their own group members. If you have ever tried to shop in Geula, you will know that it is filled with some of the most middot-less, derech erez-less people, of both sexes, and all wearing very frum frum frum outfits as they run over your feet with their baby carriages and do not make room for you on the sidewalk and try to insert their card while you are still at the ATM. Tov is as tov does.

94

 Sep 15, 2009 at 11:52 AM Askupeh Says:

Reply to #58  
FVNMS Says:

You and me must have been separated at birth.

Glad to know that I have a Ben Giloi here. What are the main points that we think alike? I’m very curious.

95

 Sep 15, 2009 at 11:17 AM David Says:

Nu, so they're just handing out flyers; it's not hurting anybody. At least they're not throwing rocks, right? So, if other people don't like the little pink flyers saying "Be Tznius," they can go hand out little blue flyers saying "If you got it, flaunt it." Free country, right?

96

 Sep 16, 2009 at 12:31 PM Jimmy37 Says:

It's funny how secularists have no problem spreading their philosophy that anything goes and no one has a right to tell them what to do, regardless how damaging the secularist culture is.

97

 Sep 16, 2009 at 12:58 PM PMO Says:

Reply to #96  
Jimmy37 Says:

It's funny how secularists have no problem spreading their philosophy that anything goes and no one has a right to tell them what to do, regardless how damaging the secularist culture is.

In principle you are correct, but you ignore the violence factors.

You do not see large (thousands) groups of chilonim rioting in the streets with SOME of them assaulting police, committing arson, and extreme vandalism. At least not to the extreme we have seen lately. THAT is what stirs up the fear. When we sink to that level, we justify all the fear and hatred.

98

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