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Iowa City, IA - UPDATE: Judge Dismisses All Immigration Charges Against Rubashkin

Published on: November 19, 2009 12:22 PM
Last updated on: November 19, 2009 01:45 PM
By:  KWWL
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Iowa City, IA - A federal judge has now dismissed all 72 charges of immigration violations against form Agriprocessor’s CEO Sholom Rubashkin.

Prosecutors filed a motion this morning to dismiss all 72 immigration charges against the former kosher slaughterhouse manager.

The move came after Sholom Rubashkin’s conviction last week in federal court on financial fraud charges.

Prosecutors filed the motion Thursday morning, one day after a bail hearing for Rubashkin.  They say since Rubashkin already faces more than 1,200 years in prison for financial fraud, that would eclipse any time he would face for the immigration charges.

Prosecutors also say the dismissal would avoid a long and costly trial.

Rubashkin was found guilty by a federal jury on 86 of 91 counts of financial fraud.  A sentencing date has not been set.

Rubashkin was scheduled to go on trial for the immigration charges on Dec. 2 in Sioux Falls, S.D.

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Read Comments (123)  —  Post Yours »

1

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:26 PM Yamamai Says:

Thanks but no thanks.

Lo meduvshoch, V'lo Me'uktzock

2

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Small nechama when he has the bank fraud to contend with. Lets hope and pray for a complete succesful appeal

3

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:28 PM Anonymous Says:

thats good news? or this means that he can't come out for bail?

4

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:28 PM Dave Says:

Key question, are the charges being dismissed with or without prejuidice?

(Dismissal without prejuidice means they can be refiled, with prejuidice means they cannot)

5

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:28 PM punch Says:

was this done out of mercy?

6

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:28 PM Anonymous Says:

i dont understand...hes still facing hundreds of years from his financial fraud charges...
so wats the difference if he has 300 or 500 years???

7

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:32 PM Sam Says:

Keep the prayers coming!!

8

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:32 PM Yankel Says:

But...but....but...I thought they're all anti-Semites who are out to torment poor Reb Sholom to the very outer limits. Of course the Rubashkin apologists will twist this too into some kind of nefarious conspiracy.

9

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:29 PM Aharon Says:

So what do you say about the prosecutors now? They removed it as they are supposed to do ethically.

10

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:35 PM Charlie Hall Says:

This is good. The financial fraud charges represented serious violations of Chosen Mishpat and are things no frum Jew should ever even consider doing. But had a non-Jew smuggled Yiddish-speaking illegal immigrants into the US to work in his sweatshop in 1940, we'd now been hailing him as a hero and honoring him in Yad VaShem. Except for dina malchutcha dina, and I'm not even sure that applies here, there shouldn't be any issur in hiring illegal immigrants. Jews have always benefitted from open borders and we should be hospitable to the people fleeing poverty and violence in Mexico and Central America rather than acting like Sodomites.

11

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:35 PM Anonymous Says:

I thought he was found not guilty on the livestock payment charges.

12

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

i dont understand...hes still facing hundreds of years from his financial fraud charges...
so wats the difference if he has 300 or 500 years???

if they cannot refile these, then he can appeal the guilty verdict and fight it all the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and iy"h go out a free man

13

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:52 PM Dag Says:

Great move by the Feds. It negates the Anti-Semitism claim

14

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:46 PM Anonymous Says:

this is what i think, the prosecutors are not looking out for rubashkin they are looking out for themselves, they are afraid that he might be acquited on the immigration cgarges because he rejected hiring their informant several times with his fake papers, if his lawyers have a good day in court and they can get him off the hook on the illegal hiring then it makes a hole in their financial fraud case because they brought that in to show that he violated loan covenants with the bank and will become a very strong basis for appeal.

15

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

i dont understand...hes still facing hundreds of years from his financial fraud charges...
so wats the difference if he has 300 or 500 years???

The difference is that to do an appeal he will only have to appeal one case instead of 2 cases, his legal fees will be cut in half, and his chances at a successful appeal are greater now. The downside to this is the judge might not be so light on sentencing considering there are no other charges against him.
To all of you people out there that had only negative things to say against him I hope you realize one day what it means to give someone the benefit of the doubt. Sholom Mordechai was and is good jew and a good man. The money that he ''stole'' didn't go to his back pocket or to his gain, it went for the continuance of selfless acts of chessed. It's so easy to turn your back on your fellow Jew, maybe if you were in his situation you would understand how horrible that feels and how wrong it is to make such baseless assumptions.

16

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:45 PM Anonymous Says:

baruch hashem for good news.
ribono shel olam, please keep the good news coming.
thank you.

17

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:16 PM Anonymous Says:

The gov. knows they will loose on this one

18

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:15 PM anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
Dag Says:

Great move by the Feds. It negates the Anti-Semitism claim

"great moves by the Feds. It negates the Anti-Semitism claim."
Guess u did not read the CIA Iran Specialists freed from Jail in JUNE due to hardship in the AIPAC treason case (ALL CHGES DROPPED AGAINST 2 AIPAC ATTYS) . CIA agent Franklin (an Irishman and Hashem should bless him for the truth)
disclosed all the anti-semitism the FBI said in recruiting him as a double agent. Did u hear the DA in the Dwek case "we arrested 27 people and of course some 19 Rabbis"! Did u hear the DA before and yesterday in Sholom Rubashkins case. He was in Jail for3-4 months because the DA said" he was a flight risk to Israel!"
Not true Israel has a mutual extradition treaty with US. Did u read reports yesterday at Bail hearing DA said that his" community put up a defense fund and bail so "he was a flight risk!" Where does it prohibit for people or family to sponsor a defense in US or if one has there own Money?? That is an attack on our community irre spective of this case. If it was an ARAB group the DA would never say it. WHERE IS THE AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTY UNION? WHERE IS THE TZADDIK HADORR FROM HECHSHER TZEDEK ON THESE COMMENTS??

19

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:18 PM Anonymous Says:

did you all see the report today the there is a 50% drop in enforcment of illegal workers raids , this is obama showing the usa that he is not serious in charging and going after employees who hire illegals , and now that they got the conviction , he has nothing to lose by dropping the charges

20

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:03 PM Anonymous Says:

i knew he was a tzaddik. now all we have to do is win on appeal of those 86/91 charges and we are good.

21

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:04 PM Dave Says:

Charges were dismissed without prejuidice.

This means that they could be refiled at some point in the future, but are unlikely to be. Should the bank fraud charges be reversed on appeal (something which is admittedly unlikely), I would expect to see the government refile the immigration charges.

22

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:02 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
Dag Says:

Great move by the Feds. It negates the Anti-Semitism claim

Are you so naive?
Of course this a prosection strategy.
Nothing to do with mercy.
To the contrary. Perhaps if they would proceed all would see thow ludicrous this is. He would liable for over 2,000 years in prison!!!(seriously. Look at the charges)
Then all would see how smr got more then the 911 attackers!!! And they would perhaps have to reevaluate the whole thing.

23

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:01 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #13  
Dag Says:

Great move by the Feds. It negates the Anti-Semitism claim

Are you so naive?
Of course this a prosection strategy.
Nothing to do with mercy.
To the contrary. Perhaps if they would proceed all would see thow ludicrous this is. He would liable for over 2,000 years in prison!!!(seriously. Look at the charges)
Then all would see how smr got more then the 911 attackers!!! And they would perhaps have to reevaluate the whole thing.

24

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:12 PM joe shmoe Says:

Reply to #13  
Dag Says:

Great move by the Feds. It negates the Anti-Semitism claim

any other wishfull thinking? they just couldn't put forth a case they couldnt win. it has nothing to do with negating anti-semitism. another point, this is not the feds but rather the prosecutor. not the feds doing the whole bust (which is a first in history even though there are many more bigger fish than him.)

Let them investigate all obabas appointees for tax evasion cheats, etc. not waste their time on some poor soul that always tried helping everybody in need. Had it been you, anti semite, he would still try helping you! and dont take my word for it. ask anybody that knows him even not personally and you'll hear the same. it's only from you bums that are far from the whole situation that just pounce on every chance to slander a frum jew! Have you no shame!

25

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:12 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Charlie Hall Says:

This is good. The financial fraud charges represented serious violations of Chosen Mishpat and are things no frum Jew should ever even consider doing. But had a non-Jew smuggled Yiddish-speaking illegal immigrants into the US to work in his sweatshop in 1940, we'd now been hailing him as a hero and honoring him in Yad VaShem. Except for dina malchutcha dina, and I'm not even sure that applies here, there shouldn't be any issur in hiring illegal immigrants. Jews have always benefitted from open borders and we should be hospitable to the people fleeing poverty and violence in Mexico and Central America rather than acting like Sodomites.

I am sure all the cleaning help you hire at home are all "fully legal"
Mr "Chosen Mishpat"

26

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:11 PM Anonymous Says:


Who exactly are they fooling with this pathetic move? Thier viciousness and cruelty have been proven from day 1 in this case. This phony gesture on thier part is not
fooling anyone. I hope not at least.

Thanks For Nothing, as they say......

27

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:07 PM Anonymous Says:

its amazing how madoof who stole 60 billion get 150 year

And he gets 1200 years!!
Let's keep davening maybe if they go to retrail for the fraud charges it will be dropped.
Yeshuas hashem keraf ein
!!

28

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:56 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #15  
Anonymous Says:

The difference is that to do an appeal he will only have to appeal one case instead of 2 cases, his legal fees will be cut in half, and his chances at a successful appeal are greater now. The downside to this is the judge might not be so light on sentencing considering there are no other charges against him.
To all of you people out there that had only negative things to say against him I hope you realize one day what it means to give someone the benefit of the doubt. Sholom Mordechai was and is good jew and a good man. The money that he ''stole'' didn't go to his back pocket or to his gain, it went for the continuance of selfless acts of chessed. It's so easy to turn your back on your fellow Jew, maybe if you were in his situation you would understand how horrible that feels and how wrong it is to make such baseless assumptions.

Sorry. He didn't steal. He did falsify papers to get bigger credit line which he planned on repaying.
Its innacurate and unacceptable to say he stole to do chesed. He simply never stole. See the charges. (Just imagine he can sit life for such charges!!!!???)

29

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:47 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
anonymous Says:

"great moves by the Feds. It negates the Anti-Semitism claim."
Guess u did not read the CIA Iran Specialists freed from Jail in JUNE due to hardship in the AIPAC treason case (ALL CHGES DROPPED AGAINST 2 AIPAC ATTYS) . CIA agent Franklin (an Irishman and Hashem should bless him for the truth)
disclosed all the anti-semitism the FBI said in recruiting him as a double agent. Did u hear the DA in the Dwek case "we arrested 27 people and of course some 19 Rabbis"! Did u hear the DA before and yesterday in Sholom Rubashkins case. He was in Jail for3-4 months because the DA said" he was a flight risk to Israel!"
Not true Israel has a mutual extradition treaty with US. Did u read reports yesterday at Bail hearing DA said that his" community put up a defense fund and bail so "he was a flight risk!" Where does it prohibit for people or family to sponsor a defense in US or if one has there own Money?? That is an attack on our community irre spective of this case. If it was an ARAB group the DA would never say it. WHERE IS THE AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTY UNION? WHERE IS THE TZADDIK HADORR FROM HECHSHER TZEDEK ON THESE COMMENTS??

#18 Not relevant to the point at hand

30

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:45 PM Anonymous Says:

people people poeple. this is a bracha and a yeshua. say thank you and shut up

32

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Charlie Hall Says:

This is good. The financial fraud charges represented serious violations of Chosen Mishpat and are things no frum Jew should ever even consider doing. But had a non-Jew smuggled Yiddish-speaking illegal immigrants into the US to work in his sweatshop in 1940, we'd now been hailing him as a hero and honoring him in Yad VaShem. Except for dina malchutcha dina, and I'm not even sure that applies here, there shouldn't be any issur in hiring illegal immigrants. Jews have always benefitted from open borders and we should be hospitable to the people fleeing poverty and violence in Mexico and Central America rather than acting like Sodomites.

howveer, it was not only hirring illagal but also ACCUSSED paying below minumum wage and shorting hours from pay. and taking money for health care when non existed. Ansd many safty issue that caused serious injuries to workers

33

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:38 PM Peretz Says:

There still is a double standard. Ever since regulators stopped doing their jobs beginning in the late 1970's people of all stripes have been able to get away with lots of things in the name of "economic growth" which they couldn't do in the 1950's -- hedge funds, derivatives, etc.

It is part of the reason why Inequality in this country is at 1920's levels.

34

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:35 PM formally Says:

Reply to #4  
Dave Says:

Key question, are the charges being dismissed with or without prejuidice?

(Dismissal without prejuidice means they can be refiled, with prejuidice means they cannot)

Dismissal without prejuidice

35

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:35 PM Shaul in Monsey Says:

Reply to #14  
Anonymous Says:

this is what i think, the prosecutors are not looking out for rubashkin they are looking out for themselves, they are afraid that he might be acquited on the immigration cgarges because he rejected hiring their informant several times with his fake papers, if his lawyers have a good day in court and they can get him off the hook on the illegal hiring then it makes a hole in their financial fraud case because they brought that in to show that he violated loan covenants with the bank and will become a very strong basis for appeal.

You are completely wrong, but only because you are ignorant of the law. Even if he was acquitted on the immigration charges he'd do time for what he was already convicted on. That's number two. Number three, his lawyers wouldn't have a good day in court unless they were disbarred for incompetence.

But number one is that under federal statute, if the same act is captured under multiple charges, you can only be sentenced on the statute that carries the higher penalty. The lesser offense is stayed. What the feds are saying is that even if he was convicted on all the immigration charges, sentencing on those charges would have to be stayed because he can't do time twice for a single act even if multiple statutes are violated. And they are reserving their right to reinstate the charges as well.

In short, the government is being prudent in their prosecution, even though this really screws up the whole blood libel thing.

40

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:24 PM OMG Says:

Thank God, at least we would not hear that devastating testimony

41

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:24 PM Dave Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

Sorry. He didn't steal. He did falsify papers to get bigger credit line which he planned on repaying.
Its innacurate and unacceptable to say he stole to do chesed. He simply never stole. See the charges. (Just imagine he can sit life for such charges!!!!???)

The fact that dozens of felony convictions can result in spending the rest of your life in bars is a surprise to you?

It shouldn't be.

42

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:24 PM Shaul in Monsey Says:

This is really bad news for Hecht and the Yated who claim this is a blood libel fueled by anti semitism and concocted evidence. They must be really disappointed. No true anti semite would have dismissed anything.

Clearly the feds are confident that the sentence SMR receives as a convicted felon on 86 counts of fraud will serve the interests of justice, and they are right. This also shows what an awful job Guy "The Cooker" Cook did as defense counsel. They returned not guilty on 5% of the charges. Letting SMR testify was a disaster.

Can anyone get a message to SMR that showing a little remorse to the judge is his only hope in helping himself get less than 20 years? Check the record. Enron, Skilling, 24 years. Worldcom, Ebbers, 25 years.

4, Dave, the motion is to dismiss without prejudice so that "criminal charges...could be reinstated based upon a change of circumstances or a reevaluation of present circumstances..

12, He's a convicted felon, he's going to do hard time. Accept it. Federal appeals are successful in so few cases that if you're counting on that, you might as well quit work and by lottery tickets as well.

43

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:22 PM Logical Says:

Reply to #15  
Anonymous Says:

The difference is that to do an appeal he will only have to appeal one case instead of 2 cases, his legal fees will be cut in half, and his chances at a successful appeal are greater now. The downside to this is the judge might not be so light on sentencing considering there are no other charges against him.
To all of you people out there that had only negative things to say against him I hope you realize one day what it means to give someone the benefit of the doubt. Sholom Mordechai was and is good jew and a good man. The money that he ''stole'' didn't go to his back pocket or to his gain, it went for the continuance of selfless acts of chessed. It's so easy to turn your back on your fellow Jew, maybe if you were in his situation you would understand how horrible that feels and how wrong it is to make such baseless assumptions.

1) Do you really think the assumptions are "baseless" ? Obviously you haven't been following the case.

2) You can put "stole" in quotation marks all you want . But stealing is exactly that.
Imagine if someone goes to your home and "steals" your belongings--not for himself but gives it to tzedakah. How would you react ??

44

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:19 PM Big Masmid Says:

Hodoo L'aShem Ke Tov ........

46

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:30 PM money Says:

It all boils down to money, there trying to save themselves money for another trial that’s not necessary.

47

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:27 PM Prophets r'Us ? Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

Sorry. He didn't steal. He did falsify papers to get bigger credit line which he planned on repaying.
Its innacurate and unacceptable to say he stole to do chesed. He simply never stole. See the charges. (Just imagine he can sit life for such charges!!!!???)

"Sorry. He didn't steal. He did falsify papers to get bigger credit line which he planned on repaying"

Are you Navi ??
"He planned to pay back" is your theory....Falsifying papers is a fact.
As far as I know courts deal with facts and not theories.

50

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:18 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Yankel Says:

But...but....but...I thought they're all anti-Semites who are out to torment poor Reb Sholom to the very outer limits. Of course the Rubashkin apologists will twist this too into some kind of nefarious conspiracy.

Don't kid yourself and others by thinking that some kind of spirit of mercy entered the prosecutor. There are clearly two possibilities here.

1. Prosecution is afraid of unsuccessful immigration trial, for many reasons (agent who was only hired after presenting valid papers, unequal treatment of Agri and other meat processors as reported on VIN). Why should they risk coming out with an egg on their face when they can exit now on top with a solid conviction?

2. Simple economics and laziness. Why should they bother continue when they have a conviction.

I would continue to argue that there is a definite case of harsher treatment because he is a Jew. Clear anti-Semitism was shown when Sholom Mordche was refused bail on basis that he is a JEW and could flee to Israel.

51

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Maybe the government figures that he will be going to prison anyway, why waste government time and money on another trial if it wont change anything.

52

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:13 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #6  
Anonymous Says:

i dont understand...hes still facing hundreds of years from his financial fraud charges...
so wats the difference if he has 300 or 500 years???

truth be said, that if they drop these convictions against him in a pre trial perhaps they might also frome the other charges against him, "you just never know"

53

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:11 PM Anonymous Says:

what is the difference from 500 yer to 150 yer.

54

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:06 PM Not so good... Says:

I don't think this is good news. He was trying to go out on bail UNTILL the next trial. But now that there WON"T BE a next trial, why should they let him out?! Hashem must help him now. Please Daven......

55

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Wow, this character probably set a record in U.S. criminal law history if he qualified for 1,200 years in prison. He beats, Madoff, Enron, Ted Bundy and Paris Hilton. The D.A. must feel very confident enough with sentencing expectation from the judge to not pursue further charges.

56

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:33 PM formally Says:

Reply to #27  
Anonymous Says:

its amazing how madoof who stole 60 billion get 150 year

And he gets 1200 years!!
Let's keep davening maybe if they go to retrail for the fraud charges it will be dropped.
Yeshuas hashem keraf ein
!!

he was not sentenced yet, hold your horses

57

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #9  
Aharon Says:

So what do you say about the prosecutors now? They removed it as they are supposed to do ethically.

This actually is bad for Rubashkin . The gov was probably going to look bad at that trial and they had alreadsy gotten their conviction . Secondly it was dismissed without prejudice ,so if he overturns the first conviction on appeal .they can refile them again . So it would actually have been in his interest to go ahead with the trial .

58

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:32 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
punch Says:

was this done out of mercy?

Mercy? No. Just being cheap.

59

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Usual procedure. There is no point in going to the expense and waste of time of a trial on the lesser charges when there are already 86 convictions for financial fraud which will carry a lengthy jail term. The original charges had nothing to do with anti-semitism neither does this decision. Both were simple prosecutorial decisions based on the facts. The 'Feds' are not looking to show they are nice guys. What Rubashkin's lawyers had better do now is to file appeals so that they can seek to keep their client out on bil pending the appeals. His application to remain out on bail pending the immigration trial has now been flushed away.

60

 Nov 19, 2009 at 01:04 PM Anonymous Says:

this is a sort of "kam lay m'dirabah minay" i.e. he is getting punished for the bigger items.

as the article says, the immigration charges are "eclipsed" by the fraud charges. he is NOT being found innocent of the alleged immigration offenses. they are just not going to go to trial on something that is already being taken care of by the conviction on the 86 counts of bank fraud, money laundering, etc.

as the saying goes, "Do the crime, Do the time."

61

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:57 PM Anonymous Says:

they are obviously confident enough that the sentencing will be so severe that they dont need to waste money on trying him further.
and the flipside of this is, that if he were to be tried then it may lead to relooking at the first trial and this can undo the harm theyve inflicted, or justice they achieved.
depends how you view it.

so whichever way they are looked at its for their possible gains that they are acting the way they do.

hashem should help him and his family and all of us, none can stand against judgment that takes nothing but strict law or "din" into account. we need "rachamim" to survive.
may he get loads of shefa and rachamim.
an absolute sad chapter from beginning to end.

62

 Nov 19, 2009 at 12:53 PM True Justice Says:

so look at what happened here: they arrested an alleged 'evil' guy for 'massive' immigration fraud and mistreatment of workers.

then the found 'massive' money fraud and totally forgot about this evil illegal immigrant abuser...

by the way, did you ever overstate you annual income on a credit card application? even in your younger days? this makes YOU as evil as R' SMR.
even if he inflated the numbers, the bank was happy to give him the loan and collect the large monthly interest payments - this is how banks make money - interest.

SMR was making the proper payments, and had every intention of continuing to do so. so who did SMR hurt by this so called fraud? does this justify years in prison? was there ANY evidence presented that he was inflating numbers to STEAL money from the bank? to cheat them of their money? what makes him the devil? where is justice?

there are the famous ponzi scheme artists and enron etc - THEY committed their acts for personal gain and with every intention of defrauding their 'clients' - who were never going to get back their 'capital'. CAN YOU COMPARE THIS? is SMR another Bernie Madoff???

63

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:39 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #35  
Shaul in Monsey Says:

You are completely wrong, but only because you are ignorant of the law. Even if he was acquitted on the immigration charges he'd do time for what he was already convicted on. That's number two. Number three, his lawyers wouldn't have a good day in court unless they were disbarred for incompetence.

But number one is that under federal statute, if the same act is captured under multiple charges, you can only be sentenced on the statute that carries the higher penalty. The lesser offense is stayed. What the feds are saying is that even if he was convicted on all the immigration charges, sentencing on those charges would have to be stayed because he can't do time twice for a single act even if multiple statutes are violated. And they are reserving their right to reinstate the charges as well.

In short, the government is being prudent in their prosecution, even though this really screws up the whole blood libel thing.

if you would have read my thorougly read my quote, you would have foolishly responded. What I wrote was that if he would be acquited of the immigration charges he would have a strong basis for appeal on the bank fraud charges. Seems that you are either unfamiliar with the case or you are of below average intelligence. The prosecutors brought in the immigration issue into evidence against the strenuous objections of the defense. The reason they brought that in was to strenghten their fiancial fraud case that he intended to defraud the bank by violating bank covenants that state the he won't engage in illegal activities. Once he is acquited of the immigration charges which the prosecutors contended were illegal activities (bank fraud) it blows a nice sized hole in their finacial fraud case and give the defense strong basis for appeal.

In the future please read comments before you comment, this site is for people who want the real scoop and don't want to waste precious time with narishkieten.

64

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #42  
Shaul in Monsey Says:

This is really bad news for Hecht and the Yated who claim this is a blood libel fueled by anti semitism and concocted evidence. They must be really disappointed. No true anti semite would have dismissed anything.

Clearly the feds are confident that the sentence SMR receives as a convicted felon on 86 counts of fraud will serve the interests of justice, and they are right. This also shows what an awful job Guy "The Cooker" Cook did as defense counsel. They returned not guilty on 5% of the charges. Letting SMR testify was a disaster.

Can anyone get a message to SMR that showing a little remorse to the judge is his only hope in helping himself get less than 20 years? Check the record. Enron, Skilling, 24 years. Worldcom, Ebbers, 25 years.

4, Dave, the motion is to dismiss without prejudice so that "criminal charges...could be reinstated based upon a change of circumstances or a reevaluation of present circumstances..

12, He's a convicted felon, he's going to do hard time. Accept it. Federal appeals are successful in so few cases that if you're counting on that, you might as well quit work and by lottery tickets as well.

Shaul, are you by any chance related to ''formally"? both of you are outstanding when it comes to "loving" other people especially yidden..

65

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #59  
Anonymous Says:

Usual procedure. There is no point in going to the expense and waste of time of a trial on the lesser charges when there are already 86 convictions for financial fraud which will carry a lengthy jail term. The original charges had nothing to do with anti-semitism neither does this decision. Both were simple prosecutorial decisions based on the facts. The 'Feds' are not looking to show they are nice guys. What Rubashkin's lawyers had better do now is to file appeals so that they can seek to keep their client out on bil pending the appeals. His application to remain out on bail pending the immigration trial has now been flushed away.

you seem to forget that they were trying to prosecute him for identity theft and prosecuted him for a 1932 law that was never used as well

66

 Nov 19, 2009 at 03:05 PM OMG Says:

Upon reflection I don’t think that this dismissal was the best outcome for SMR even although when you hear it is sounds like the best news SMR could hope for, but after a few minutes I see ulterior motive, the prosecution cut off the only reasonable argument what SMR has on appeal, you need to understand that the appeals court doesn’t look at the facts of the case they always presume that the Jury came to the proper conclusion, what they look at is how the Judge ruled during the trial, did she admitted illegal evidence, i.e. testimony or material, invoice etc. during the trial itself which was illegal and if yes was that testimony so prejudicial that the Jury had to convict the defendant, and I believed that they only ruling from the Judge which might be overturned on appeal would be the testimony on the illegal’s to support the charge of fraud to the bank, just looking at that ruling there could be an argument that although he was not charged in the trial with the immigration counts but the knowledge by the Jury that they illegally hired and supplied these illegal’s with documentation is enough that he couldn’t get a fair trial, as the Judge ruled that the fraud and immigration issue should be divided. Now that there is no more the immigration trial, the defends will have a tougher time to convince the appellate court.

67

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:56 PM Anonymous Says:

this is a change in white house policy.
a message from the top, Obama, don't dig in the imigration issue, its not a friendly issue with my base.
don't pursue a case that was started under the Bush era....

68

 Nov 19, 2009 at 03:10 PM Shaul in Monsey Says:

Reply to #63  
Anonymous Says:

if you would have read my thorougly read my quote, you would have foolishly responded. What I wrote was that if he would be acquited of the immigration charges he would have a strong basis for appeal on the bank fraud charges. Seems that you are either unfamiliar with the case or you are of below average intelligence. The prosecutors brought in the immigration issue into evidence against the strenuous objections of the defense. The reason they brought that in was to strenghten their fiancial fraud case that he intended to defraud the bank by violating bank covenants that state the he won't engage in illegal activities. Once he is acquited of the immigration charges which the prosecutors contended were illegal activities (bank fraud) it blows a nice sized hole in their finacial fraud case and give the defense strong basis for appeal.

In the future please read comments before you comment, this site is for people who want the real scoop and don't want to waste precious time with narishkieten.

I'm not sure what's wrong with you but the facts seem to be confusing you. Aquittal on immigration charges is not a basis for appeal on a conviction of bank fraud. What you mean to say is that you want to argue that the judge erred in allowing testimony regarding the immigration violations in the fraud trial. That motion by Cook was denied because in every bank covenant a guarantor swears or affirms that he is in compliance with all local, state and federal laws. When SMR signed his bank guarantee, he was not in compliance so he lied.

As I stated the law precludes sentencing on a lesser of multiple offenses committed during the course of a single act and that is why the immigration charges were dismissed and not because of some hokey theory you have about the prosecution being scared about appeals. The prosecution isn't scared of an appeal. Get a life.

69

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:51 PM Dave Says:

Reply to #63  
Anonymous Says:

if you would have read my thorougly read my quote, you would have foolishly responded. What I wrote was that if he would be acquited of the immigration charges he would have a strong basis for appeal on the bank fraud charges. Seems that you are either unfamiliar with the case or you are of below average intelligence. The prosecutors brought in the immigration issue into evidence against the strenuous objections of the defense. The reason they brought that in was to strenghten their fiancial fraud case that he intended to defraud the bank by violating bank covenants that state the he won't engage in illegal activities. Once he is acquited of the immigration charges which the prosecutors contended were illegal activities (bank fraud) it blows a nice sized hole in their finacial fraud case and give the defense strong basis for appeal.

In the future please read comments before you comment, this site is for people who want the real scoop and don't want to waste precious time with narishkieten.

Decisions of fact are not grounds for appeal. Period.

Only errors in decisions of law.

If a second jury acquitted on immigration charges, it would have absolutely no impact on the decision by the first jury to convict on bank charges that included underlying elements of immigration violations.

70

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Yankel Says:

But...but....but...I thought they're all anti-Semites who are out to torment poor Reb Sholom to the very outer limits. Of course the Rubashkin apologists will twist this too into some kind of nefarious conspiracy.

Yankel please dont use your jewish name when you have your jew hating venom spewing from your key board

71

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #60  
Anonymous Says:

this is a sort of "kam lay m'dirabah minay" i.e. he is getting punished for the bigger items.

as the article says, the immigration charges are "eclipsed" by the fraud charges. he is NOT being found innocent of the alleged immigration offenses. they are just not going to go to trial on something that is already being taken care of by the conviction on the 86 counts of bank fraud, money laundering, etc.

as the saying goes, "Do the crime, Do the time."

"do the Crime, do the time,! U sound like a sadistic rosha ! When two alleged bombers get six years , you kvell at this yids harsh 200-300 years sentence for
trying fraudulently get a larger credit line and his ommission of "hiring illegal workers on his loan application thereby facing prosecution and the losss of the loan" ! That is the basic chg. I remeber a corporation that did the same and the shareholders lost $50,000,000.00 They paid a $100,000.00 and back in business. Do u have stones in your blood that u think he deserves hundres or a lifetime in Jail for this crime??

72

 Nov 19, 2009 at 02:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #42  
Shaul in Monsey Says:

This is really bad news for Hecht and the Yated who claim this is a blood libel fueled by anti semitism and concocted evidence. They must be really disappointed. No true anti semite would have dismissed anything.

Clearly the feds are confident that the sentence SMR receives as a convicted felon on 86 counts of fraud will serve the interests of justice, and they are right. This also shows what an awful job Guy "The Cooker" Cook did as defense counsel. They returned not guilty on 5% of the charges. Letting SMR testify was a disaster.

Can anyone get a message to SMR that showing a little remorse to the judge is his only hope in helping himself get less than 20 years? Check the record. Enron, Skilling, 24 years. Worldcom, Ebbers, 25 years.

4, Dave, the motion is to dismiss without prejudice so that "criminal charges...could be reinstated based upon a change of circumstances or a reevaluation of present circumstances..

12, He's a convicted felon, he's going to do hard time. Accept it. Federal appeals are successful in so few cases that if you're counting on that, you might as well quit work and by lottery tickets as well.

This judge appears to be a normal understanding and intelligent person. while for rapes and murder some real criminals serve 5-25 years, they found SMR such a bad criminal to serve over a thousand years!
But this judge didn't buy babkas and baloney, he has his head in the right place.

73

 Nov 19, 2009 at 03:26 PM bprebbetzin Says:

You never know....this might just b the beginning of the light at the end of the tunnel

74

 Nov 19, 2009 at 03:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #32  
Anonymous Says:

howveer, it was not only hirring illagal but also ACCUSSED paying below minumum wage and shorting hours from pay. and taking money for health care when non existed. Ansd many safty issue that caused serious injuries to workers

syug lachochma shtika!
Safety violations... my foot. No one was injured! Such a massive plant no one ever died or had serious injuries. PLease spew your hate elsewhere.

75

 Nov 19, 2009 at 03:22 PM Anonymous Says:

There are still child labor law violations to be faced. These are State of Iowa violations and involve considerable jail time. It will be interesting to see if these get dropped if SMR is sentenced to serious jail time in Federal court.

76

 Nov 19, 2009 at 03:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #68  
Shaul in Monsey Says:

I'm not sure what's wrong with you but the facts seem to be confusing you. Aquittal on immigration charges is not a basis for appeal on a conviction of bank fraud. What you mean to say is that you want to argue that the judge erred in allowing testimony regarding the immigration violations in the fraud trial. That motion by Cook was denied because in every bank covenant a guarantor swears or affirms that he is in compliance with all local, state and federal laws. When SMR signed his bank guarantee, he was not in compliance so he lied.

As I stated the law precludes sentencing on a lesser of multiple offenses committed during the course of a single act and that is why the immigration charges were dismissed and not because of some hokey theory you have about the prosecution being scared about appeals. The prosecution isn't scared of an appeal. Get a life.

You are in error, the prosecution did not bring in the immigration issue to damage his credibility by proving he is a liar. They brought it in to prove that he commited bank fraud. check your fact

77

 Nov 19, 2009 at 03:49 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #68  
Shaul in Monsey Says:

I'm not sure what's wrong with you but the facts seem to be confusing you. Aquittal on immigration charges is not a basis for appeal on a conviction of bank fraud. What you mean to say is that you want to argue that the judge erred in allowing testimony regarding the immigration violations in the fraud trial. That motion by Cook was denied because in every bank covenant a guarantor swears or affirms that he is in compliance with all local, state and federal laws. When SMR signed his bank guarantee, he was not in compliance so he lied.

As I stated the law precludes sentencing on a lesser of multiple offenses committed during the course of a single act and that is why the immigration charges were dismissed and not because of some hokey theory you have about the prosecution being scared about appeals. The prosecution isn't scared of an appeal. Get a life.

Shaul I saw you comment yesterday in regard SMR’s apparent disrespect to the Judge, that type of comment is sometimes used in motions by attorneys to either lift a money attachment in civil cases or for bail hearings, but I never heard that some convict to say that to the Judge just after a conviction, I think that SMR saw that argument in the motion by the lawyer, so he decided to use the same phrase during the testimony, but you right any litigator worth a cent, would tell their client that he or she must be respectful to the Judge and the system.

78

 Nov 19, 2009 at 03:49 PM mendel again Says:

Reply to #66  
OMG Says:

Upon reflection I don’t think that this dismissal was the best outcome for SMR even although when you hear it is sounds like the best news SMR could hope for, but after a few minutes I see ulterior motive, the prosecution cut off the only reasonable argument what SMR has on appeal, you need to understand that the appeals court doesn’t look at the facts of the case they always presume that the Jury came to the proper conclusion, what they look at is how the Judge ruled during the trial, did she admitted illegal evidence, i.e. testimony or material, invoice etc. during the trial itself which was illegal and if yes was that testimony so prejudicial that the Jury had to convict the defendant, and I believed that they only ruling from the Judge which might be overturned on appeal would be the testimony on the illegal’s to support the charge of fraud to the bank, just looking at that ruling there could be an argument that although he was not charged in the trial with the immigration counts but the knowledge by the Jury that they illegally hired and supplied these illegal’s with documentation is enough that he couldn’t get a fair trial, as the Judge ruled that the fraud and immigration issue should be divided. Now that there is no more the immigration trial, the defends will have a tougher time to convince the appellate court.

that is what i meant- well written. My prayers are with the Rubashkins. It may be that this will be posted before my other post.

79

 Nov 19, 2009 at 03:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #68  
Shaul in Monsey Says:

I'm not sure what's wrong with you but the facts seem to be confusing you. Aquittal on immigration charges is not a basis for appeal on a conviction of bank fraud. What you mean to say is that you want to argue that the judge erred in allowing testimony regarding the immigration violations in the fraud trial. That motion by Cook was denied because in every bank covenant a guarantor swears or affirms that he is in compliance with all local, state and federal laws. When SMR signed his bank guarantee, he was not in compliance so he lied.

As I stated the law precludes sentencing on a lesser of multiple offenses committed during the course of a single act and that is why the immigration charges were dismissed and not because of some hokey theory you have about the prosecution being scared about appeals. The prosecution isn't scared of an appeal. Get a life.

Wrong again if you would say that the judge erred in letting into evidence a prior that would put the defendant in a bad light, I would agree with you. In this case the prosecutor utilized this testimony as a one of the BASIS for proving that he commited bank fraud. That is appealable. Where is the evidence that when he signed the loan documents he was not in compliance with the law. And yes, the prosecutors don't want to jeapordize the guilty verdict and conviction they got by convoluting it with new testimony that might serve to be beneficial to Rubashkin. You believe the bubeh maaseh that they are withdrawing because of the costly nature of a lengthy trial? He is trying to build a name for himself AT ALL COSTS!!!!

A kop ken men nisht aroifshtellen.

80

 Nov 19, 2009 at 03:47 PM Shaul in Monsey Says:

Could any of you blind followers please explain why invoices were cut from AGRI to a clothing store? Or why AGRi had accounts pay the bank accounts that belonged to the yeshiva and grocery? Or why they took prepayments for orders and did not ship them? These facts are undisputed and they are the real crimes here. It's so funny to listen to everyone kvetch about ridiculous legal theories they know nothing about but when it comes to these facts you ignore them.

81

 Nov 19, 2009 at 04:15 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #69  
Dave Says:

Decisions of fact are not grounds for appeal. Period.

Only errors in decisions of law.

If a second jury acquitted on immigration charges, it would have absolutely no impact on the decision by the first jury to convict on bank charges that included underlying elements of immigration violations.

I guess you didn't read the prosecution s papers requesting leave and dismissal, the link is above the comments forum. The gov't states financial and other hardship on witnesses and the defendant as the cause for dismissal. Also read that the the immigration issue is not an "underlying elemen" in the jury's unanimous guilty verdict but an integral part of their decision to find that the defendant commited bank fraud.

82

 Nov 19, 2009 at 04:31 PM Shaul in Monsey Says:

Reply to #79  
Anonymous Says:

Wrong again if you would say that the judge erred in letting into evidence a prior that would put the defendant in a bad light, I would agree with you. In this case the prosecutor utilized this testimony as a one of the BASIS for proving that he commited bank fraud. That is appealable. Where is the evidence that when he signed the loan documents he was not in compliance with the law. And yes, the prosecutors don't want to jeapordize the guilty verdict and conviction they got by convoluting it with new testimony that might serve to be beneficial to Rubashkin. You believe the bubeh maaseh that they are withdrawing because of the costly nature of a lengthy trial? He is trying to build a name for himself AT ALL COSTS!!!!

A kop ken men nisht aroifshtellen.

Stop. You are ignorant of the law. You are ignorant period. The appeal will address whether the testimony regarding the immigration violations was appropriate, and it will be allowed. SMR signed the bank loan docs and within the bank loan docs was a validity guarantee. The judge allowed the testimony on the immigration charges over the objection of the defense because it went to the issue of whether or not SMR was complying with the terms of the contract and its covenants or not. Your exact question proves my point, "Where is the evidence that when he signed the loan documents he was not in compliance with the law." That's why the judge allowed the testimony on the immigration charges - To prove the fraud. He wasn't in compliance with the law. Oh, but wait, I forgot, since everyone hires illegal cleaning ladies SMR did nothing wrong.

83

 Nov 19, 2009 at 04:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #82  
Shaul in Monsey Says:

Stop. You are ignorant of the law. You are ignorant period. The appeal will address whether the testimony regarding the immigration violations was appropriate, and it will be allowed. SMR signed the bank loan docs and within the bank loan docs was a validity guarantee. The judge allowed the testimony on the immigration charges over the objection of the defense because it went to the issue of whether or not SMR was complying with the terms of the contract and its covenants or not. Your exact question proves my point, "Where is the evidence that when he signed the loan documents he was not in compliance with the law." That's why the judge allowed the testimony on the immigration charges - To prove the fraud. He wasn't in compliance with the law. Oh, but wait, I forgot, since everyone hires illegal cleaning ladies SMR did nothing wrong.

yilamdenu Rabbeinu, in the event he is is acquited on the immigration issue, would that constitute that he complied with the terms and covenants of the loan? would that be basis for appealing the fact that the judge let it into evidence and as the prosecutors wrote became an integral part of their unanimous guilty verdict? Hegeh Atzemecha!!!
Kol haposel b'momoi posel, ignorance seems to be an ongoing problem with you even after being explained to you like a bar bei rav d'chad yoimah.

84

 Nov 19, 2009 at 04:45 PM Show some precident Says:

Reply to #8  
Yankel Says:

But...but....but...I thought they're all anti-Semites who are out to torment poor Reb Sholom to the very outer limits. Of course the Rubashkin apologists will twist this too into some kind of nefarious conspiracy.

They are anti Semitic because they only went in there on the pretext of immigration, and then charged him with wire fraud even though the bank new full well what was going on, and didnt really care as long as they were making money.

Now that they got their conviction on the wire fraud, they are being smart and keeping away from the immigration issue.

85

 Nov 19, 2009 at 04:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #80  
Shaul in Monsey Says:

Could any of you blind followers please explain why invoices were cut from AGRI to a clothing store? Or why AGRi had accounts pay the bank accounts that belonged to the yeshiva and grocery? Or why they took prepayments for orders and did not ship them? These facts are undisputed and they are the real crimes here. It's so funny to listen to everyone kvetch about ridiculous legal theories they know nothing about but when it comes to these facts you ignore them.

shaul u are more biggot than the goverment clothing store with large family can buy from the agri and maybe u sit and think again wath u ask shote u mother maybe not jews u was the delivery man u now if he not delivered the items sometimes is for amesivah they serv meat u now and for the some time get the meat for yom tov sheapper bicous agri pay for it are u a mamzer?

86

 Nov 19, 2009 at 05:05 PM Anonymous Says:

He was wrong but that is what is going on today every major corporation falifies financial statements to raise the stock prices and to get credit lines. On a similar note every one on boro park and flatbush who took a mortgage and stated their income alot higher or stated higher income on a crerdit card application is doing the same cheating and lying but on a smaller money scale. so before ayone judges him look at your credit card application and see if it really matches your income then read the fine print how knowingly providing false information can lead to prison

87

 Nov 19, 2009 at 05:04 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #71  
Anonymous Says:

"do the Crime, do the time,! U sound like a sadistic rosha ! When two alleged bombers get six years , you kvell at this yids harsh 200-300 years sentence for
trying fraudulently get a larger credit line and his ommission of "hiring illegal workers on his loan application thereby facing prosecution and the losss of the loan" ! That is the basic chg. I remeber a corporation that did the same and the shareholders lost $50,000,000.00 They paid a $100,000.00 and back in business. Do u have stones in your blood that u think he deserves hundres or a lifetime in Jail for this crime??

he hasn't received a sentence yet. stop injecting your emotions and lack of knowledge of the law into the discussion.

88

 Nov 19, 2009 at 05:10 PM Dave Says:

Reply to #83  
Anonymous Says:

yilamdenu Rabbeinu, in the event he is is acquited on the immigration issue, would that constitute that he complied with the terms and covenants of the loan? would that be basis for appealing the fact that the judge let it into evidence and as the prosecutors wrote became an integral part of their unanimous guilty verdict? Hegeh Atzemecha!!!
Kol haposel b'momoi posel, ignorance seems to be an ongoing problem with you even after being explained to you like a bar bei rav d'chad yoimah.

No, it would not be a basis for appeal.

89

 Nov 19, 2009 at 04:40 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

if they cannot refile these, then he can appeal the guilty verdict and fight it all the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and iy"h go out a free man

To # 12

the twist to this whole thing is that they CAN refile these charges - it was one of the clauses in the agreement.

90

 Nov 19, 2009 at 03:45 PM mendel Says:

Unfortunately, I feel that this is an attempt to have the judge be stricter on Sholom in regards to the fraud case. ( I really hope that I am wrong.)
I feel that this was also the intent of bringing up a violation that was never used to charge anyone ( not paying for livestock within twenty four hours.) It is human nature for the jury to be self righteous.To say that I have fully examined the case, and have even found that they are not as bad as the persecution is making him/her out to be. When charges are exaggerated, the jury can see themselves as being righteous to the extent that they have even acquitted the fellow with regard to certain charges. It thereby causes the jury not to look with the proper scrutiny at the other charges.

91

 Nov 19, 2009 at 03:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #43  
Logical Says:

1) Do you really think the assumptions are "baseless" ? Obviously you haven't been following the case.

2) You can put "stole" in quotation marks all you want . But stealing is exactly that.
Imagine if someone goes to your home and "steals" your belongings--not for himself but gives it to tzedakah. How would you react ??

You are obviously unaware of the case. This is borrowing money and making the payments. Bank is happy. Bank is very happy.
Bank would remain happy if the immigration issue would not have turned the business upside down
You call it stealing like burglary.
I call stealing, as in burglary, the govt.

92

 Nov 19, 2009 at 03:40 PM NB Says:

Reply to #10  
Charlie Hall Says:

This is good. The financial fraud charges represented serious violations of Chosen Mishpat and are things no frum Jew should ever even consider doing. But had a non-Jew smuggled Yiddish-speaking illegal immigrants into the US to work in his sweatshop in 1940, we'd now been hailing him as a hero and honoring him in Yad VaShem. Except for dina malchutcha dina, and I'm not even sure that applies here, there shouldn't be any issur in hiring illegal immigrants. Jews have always benefitted from open borders and we should be hospitable to the people fleeing poverty and violence in Mexico and Central America rather than acting like Sodomites.

I'm happy to see some sane people in our community.

93

 Nov 19, 2009 at 03:40 PM OMG Says:

I AM REPLYING TO THE POST # 145 FROM THE RUBASKIN AWAITS BAIL STORY
Nov 14, 2009 as the page is almost gone I appreciate our discussion
Part # 1
I am as much appalled by the blatant miscarriage of Justices by the Bush Justice Department as anyone on this blog. My view is that as the firing of the District Attorneys and the outing of an CIA agent, was politically motivated, and the people in the Bush administration got away with illegal shenanigans because the Congress was of the same party, and when the Democratic party took over they were more interested in winning the next election, then pursuing the misdeeds of the Bush administration, just to finalize my point that everybody will acknowledge that in 2007 when the Justices Department was investigating Agri the hot photo of the day was illegal emigration, where Bush and McCain pushed for a solution for the 12M illegal’s and the people on the right were up in arms, so the Justices decided to show their base that they are tough on illegal’s, so we are in agreement on that point, now as much I hate that they got away with this political raid but it is not different then they got away with weatherboarding, and exposing a covert CIA operative and firing District Attorneys for pure political reasons, and finally they turned the Justices Department into a political extension to the White House,

94

 Nov 19, 2009 at 03:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
Yankel Says:

But...but....but...I thought they're all anti-Semites who are out to torment poor Reb Sholom to the very outer limits. Of course the Rubashkin apologists will twist this too into some kind of nefarious conspiracy.

You did not read the item!

95

 Nov 19, 2009 at 03:38 PM OMG Says:

Part # 2
But when you lay blame on Judge Reddy sorry I don’t see it your way, first of all I am trying to find the original Judges order to see if it was Judge Reddy I could not located it so far, so I am not so sure that she even did sign off on the raid, but even if she did, I don’t see anything wrong with any Judge’s order, A Judges sole function is to be the arbitrator what is according the law and what is not, and in my view the Judge applied the law properly when the Judge (whoever it is) signed off the raid, reason as follows, I came across the original affidavit signed by David M Hoagland, senior agent with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, it is 57 pages long, I don’t want to repeat for a hour point after point, but after reading it, I came to the conclusion that the Judge didn’t have any other choice but to permit the raid. I only hope that some of the boggler would understand that we are not evil Jews we just believe in justices, and if one of our gets entangled, he should know that sometimes a plea would be the best approach, and complaining about the system that it is corrupt and bias because he is a Jew, is counterproductive, from my experience the FBI read the blogs to gage the communities view. And we don’t want them to believe that we are against law and order

96

 Nov 19, 2009 at 05:35 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #72  
Anonymous Says:

This judge appears to be a normal understanding and intelligent person. while for rapes and murder some real criminals serve 5-25 years, they found SMR such a bad criminal to serve over a thousand years!
But this judge didn't buy babkas and baloney, he has his head in the right place.

I just read the motion by the prosecutor they explicitly state that in their view the jury found that SMR harbored illegal’s and that the judge should take that into account when she will sentencing SMR on the fraud, so basically according to the motion they are requesting dismissal only because it would not make a difference, SMR was found guilty on harboring illegal’s already

97

 Nov 19, 2009 at 05:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #88  
Dave Says:

No, it would not be a basis for appeal.

please be more specific on how you arrived to that conclusion. if what post 83 wrote is actually the case, in my humble opinion, that is a clear basis for appeal.

98

 Nov 19, 2009 at 05:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #88  
Dave Says:

No, it would not be a basis for appeal.

qualify and quantify your statement

99

 Nov 19, 2009 at 05:20 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #72  
Anonymous Says:

This judge appears to be a normal understanding and intelligent person. while for rapes and murder some real criminals serve 5-25 years, they found SMR such a bad criminal to serve over a thousand years!
But this judge didn't buy babkas and baloney, he has his head in the right place.

The more you write your idiocy permeate from your pen, the prosecutor laid down a proper logical foundation that it makes no sense to continue the immigration trial, and the prosecutor decided to use what is known as prosecutorial discretion, and filed a motion with the Judge to dismiss the rest of the charges, and the Judge agreed with the prosecutor.

100

 Nov 19, 2009 at 05:43 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #96  
OMG Says:

I just read the motion by the prosecutor they explicitly state that in their view the jury found that SMR harbored illegal’s and that the judge should take that into account when she will sentencing SMR on the fraud, so basically according to the motion they are requesting dismissal only because it would not make a difference, SMR was found guilty on harboring illegal’s already

I doubt the prosecution wrote that. It would be an issue for appeal.

101

 Nov 19, 2009 at 05:42 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #47  
Prophets r'Us ? Says:

"Sorry. He didn't steal. He did falsify papers to get bigger credit line which he planned on repaying"

Are you Navi ??
"He planned to pay back" is your theory....Falsifying papers is a fact.
As far as I know courts deal with facts and not theories.

I cant believe what you are writing.
Did you pay up for your house fully or you stole the mortgage from the bank???
Well.. you will say you "plan" to pay up monthly. I will say GANUV. are you a navi? How do we know what you plan??? (and if you dies before..ch"v)
You get the point how silly your statement is, but who cares .. I guess any warped logic goes to justify the hate you have in you.

102

 Nov 19, 2009 at 06:29 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #99  
OMG Says:

The more you write your idiocy permeate from your pen, the prosecutor laid down a proper logical foundation that it makes no sense to continue the immigration trial, and the prosecutor decided to use what is known as prosecutorial discretion, and filed a motion with the Judge to dismiss the rest of the charges, and the Judge agreed with the prosecutor.

You and Dave are now writing personally insulting remarks to commentators . Like" u write your idiocy". Could it be u were looking forward to more prosecutorial events for the rubashkins??? these personal attacks indicates a frustration of people worried about the hundreds of years SR faces which u and Dave seem oblivious to. Does the potential sentence really fit this crime??

103

 Nov 19, 2009 at 06:11 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #90  
mendel Says:

Unfortunately, I feel that this is an attempt to have the judge be stricter on Sholom in regards to the fraud case. ( I really hope that I am wrong.)
I feel that this was also the intent of bringing up a violation that was never used to charge anyone ( not paying for livestock within twenty four hours.) It is human nature for the jury to be self righteous.To say that I have fully examined the case, and have even found that they are not as bad as the persecution is making him/her out to be. When charges are exaggerated, the jury can see themselves as being righteous to the extent that they have even acquitted the fellow with regard to certain charges. It thereby causes the jury not to look with the proper scrutiny at the other charges.

Now I understand your previous post.

104

 Nov 19, 2009 at 06:51 PM OMG Says:

Go to the top of this thread see link document, left click on your mouse twice, scroll (you could scroll either by the round thing in the middle of the mouse, or you could put your cursor on the right edge of the document and pull down slowly the little bar and keep an eye on the bottom left you will see numbers, that is page number) to page 3 read row 2-8 and you would see for yourself, and no, this motion is true that is what the jury found at trial, and you think you understand the law maybe you could learn a blat gamorh, but for sure you don’t understand the law.

105

 Nov 19, 2009 at 06:03 PM Ich Shaym Nisht tzu Zugin Says:

Reply to #86  
Anonymous Says:

He was wrong but that is what is going on today every major corporation falifies financial statements to raise the stock prices and to get credit lines. On a similar note every one on boro park and flatbush who took a mortgage and stated their income alot higher or stated higher income on a crerdit card application is doing the same cheating and lying but on a smaller money scale. so before ayone judges him look at your credit card application and see if it really matches your income then read the fine print how knowingly providing false information can lead to prison

So basically, he should be set free because everyone steals? I mean, seriously? That's your argument?

and if people lied on their mortgage or credit card applications that should affect this case how?

Maybe you can get a job prosecuting people who aren't being charged with anything but you think should be punished?

Who cares whether someone's credit application was bumped up, if they get audited, they will get charged, too. How does this make SMR innocent?

Is this the "all my friends are doing it" defense? Because if it is, there's the old "if your friends jumped off the roof" answer to it.

First he was an innocent Malach with angel wings. Now he's a cheat and a liar, but since all of Boro Park and Flatbush cheats and lies also, what do you want from Rubashkin?

It's a shame you are not an attorney. The law world is missing spectacular legal theories without you in the picture. At least you make good arguments here, and you don't sound like a fool at all.

Really, not a bit!

106

 Nov 19, 2009 at 07:58 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #40  
OMG Says:

Thank God, at least we would not hear that devastating testimony

or hear testimony not relevant to SMR but to his other loyal employees. But then again, the detainees should all be back home by now shouldn't they? So then who are the eye witnesses they could bring to testify for them? Who do they have to say the SMR himself abused them, hired them, stole from them; or even if they ever even met SMR personally!

107

 Nov 19, 2009 at 08:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #105  
Ich Shaym Nisht tzu Zugin Says:

So basically, he should be set free because everyone steals? I mean, seriously? That's your argument?

and if people lied on their mortgage or credit card applications that should affect this case how?

Maybe you can get a job prosecuting people who aren't being charged with anything but you think should be punished?

Who cares whether someone's credit application was bumped up, if they get audited, they will get charged, too. How does this make SMR innocent?

Is this the "all my friends are doing it" defense? Because if it is, there's the old "if your friends jumped off the roof" answer to it.

First he was an innocent Malach with angel wings. Now he's a cheat and a liar, but since all of Boro Park and Flatbush cheats and lies also, what do you want from Rubashkin?

It's a shame you are not an attorney. The law world is missing spectacular legal theories without you in the picture. At least you make good arguments here, and you don't sound like a fool at all.

Really, not a bit!

Well well! di zolst zich gantz git shemen tsi zugen voos di zoogst!! You show alot of hatred and for that you should be ashamed. You are implying that when one exaggerates for the mortgage or credit application they should be sitting in jail. Yes because this is common practice you cannot consider this cheating enuf to sit in jail, ESPECIALLY when your intention is to pay back and you proved it for the past 16 years. ti tshiveh, if you care that Hashem should judge you favorably. It can not be that you are such a tzaddik and you care about the justice here, You don't portray such midos that a tzadik would.

108

 Nov 19, 2009 at 08:16 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #96  
OMG Says:

I just read the motion by the prosecutor they explicitly state that in their view the jury found that SMR harbored illegal’s and that the judge should take that into account when she will sentencing SMR on the fraud, so basically according to the motion they are requesting dismissal only because it would not make a difference, SMR was found guilty on harboring illegal’s already

Therefore the jury was biased by the testimony allowed in regard to the immigration issue which was supposed to reserved for the separate trial.

109

 Nov 19, 2009 at 08:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #101  
Anonymous Says:

I cant believe what you are writing.
Did you pay up for your house fully or you stole the mortgage from the bank???
Well.. you will say you "plan" to pay up monthly. I will say GANUV. are you a navi? How do we know what you plan??? (and if you dies before..ch"v)
You get the point how silly your statement is, but who cares .. I guess any warped logic goes to justify the hate you have in you.

According to your theory ALL those who are currently in Foreclosure should be arrested on Fraud charges because they are cheating the bank and stealing from them because they are neglecting to pay back the loans and are in default of their loans. But they all signed an agreement to pay back the loan on a timely manner and they broke that agreement so they are committing fraud because they signed their name to the fact that they were responsible individuals who were capable of keeping a job and being productive citizens. Obviously they must have lied on their mortgage applications which is a felony. Actually, if they were given jail time, they would actually have a roof over their heads and food too.

110

 Nov 19, 2009 at 08:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Please watch what you say.

The sentencing will now proceed as soon as possible. People on VIN are saying vile things about the judge. On the Internet, everyone can have an alert set up on Google when anyone says something about their name.

For heaven's sake.

Stop calling the judge names!

Stop saying the judge is an anti-semite.

Pirkei Avot warns about this.

To all the SMR supporters, do you think you are helping him by saying terrible things about the judge.

In her mind she'll say, "Now I'll show them."

Just don't do it.

Now is the time to write letters asking for mercy from the judge.

The fight is OVER. SMR lost. He is likely to lose the appeal.

Put away midas hadin and take out midas harachamim.

111

 Nov 19, 2009 at 08:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #99  
OMG Says:

The more you write your idiocy permeate from your pen, the prosecutor laid down a proper logical foundation that it makes no sense to continue the immigration trial, and the prosecutor decided to use what is known as prosecutorial discretion, and filed a motion with the Judge to dismiss the rest of the charges, and the Judge agreed with the prosecutor.

Firstly, of course the Judge agrees with the prosecutor thats a no brainer. Secondly I am disappointed that after all our discussions you choose to still revert to name calling, please refrain even though it was not directed at me, and even though we have a difference of opinion I can still respect you when you are respectful of others.

112

 Nov 19, 2009 at 08:14 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #95  
OMG Says:

Part # 2
But when you lay blame on Judge Reddy sorry I don’t see it your way, first of all I am trying to find the original Judges order to see if it was Judge Reddy I could not located it so far, so I am not so sure that she even did sign off on the raid, but even if she did, I don’t see anything wrong with any Judge’s order, A Judges sole function is to be the arbitrator what is according the law and what is not, and in my view the Judge applied the law properly when the Judge (whoever it is) signed off the raid, reason as follows, I came across the original affidavit signed by David M Hoagland, senior agent with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, it is 57 pages long, I don’t want to repeat for a hour point after point, but after reading it, I came to the conclusion that the Judge didn’t have any other choice but to permit the raid. I only hope that some of the boggler would understand that we are not evil Jews we just believe in justices, and if one of our gets entangled, he should know that sometimes a plea would be the best approach, and complaining about the system that it is corrupt and bias because he is a Jew, is counterproductive, from my experience the FBI read the blogs to gage the communities view. And we don’t want them to believe that we are against law and order

Please reread Rockne Cole's letter as well as the Congressional hearing and you will read that they needed a judge to sign off on the raid and that was she. She was also at the secret meeting. She also approved the script and was the only judge that knew about the script. She was also the judge that chose the defense attorneys and even called some if not all of them.

113

 Nov 19, 2009 at 08:08 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #75  
Anonymous Says:

There are still child labor law violations to be faced. These are State of Iowa violations and involve considerable jail time. It will be interesting to see if these get dropped if SMR is sentenced to serious jail time in Federal court.

Sorry, ICE blew the Dept of Labor's case, there is no evidence any longer for them to collect, hence no charges, no longer any witnesses.....

114

 Nov 19, 2009 at 07:47 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #105  
Ich Shaym Nisht tzu Zugin Says:

So basically, he should be set free because everyone steals? I mean, seriously? That's your argument?

and if people lied on their mortgage or credit card applications that should affect this case how?

Maybe you can get a job prosecuting people who aren't being charged with anything but you think should be punished?

Who cares whether someone's credit application was bumped up, if they get audited, they will get charged, too. How does this make SMR innocent?

Is this the "all my friends are doing it" defense? Because if it is, there's the old "if your friends jumped off the roof" answer to it.

First he was an innocent Malach with angel wings. Now he's a cheat and a liar, but since all of Boro Park and Flatbush cheats and lies also, what do you want from Rubashkin?

It's a shame you are not an attorney. The law world is missing spectacular legal theories without you in the picture. At least you make good arguments here, and you don't sound like a fool at all.

Really, not a bit!

the point wasn't he is innocent the point was everyone else should stop judging him becasue they do the exact same thing i agree he is wrong never argued that point

115

 Nov 19, 2009 at 07:21 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
punch Says:

was this done out of mercy?

No this is being done because the prosecutors are being investigated by the US Congress for screwing up the entire investigation and the raid. They are back-peddling. On the other hand there are issues in the documents which might help in the appeal. Such as the agreed upon separation of the two trials and the admittance of the prosecution that in the first group of charges the jury references the immigration issues in the decision to find SMR guilty.

It would seem that these prosecutors were instructed to reign in their overzealousness and aggressiveness. They probably also had quite a dressing down for spending over $4,000,000 rather wasting $4,000,000 on this ridiculous embarrassing raid where many laws were broken and many Americans have reason to be ashamed. I wouldn't be at all surprised at this point if the Judge herself has been given a few instructions or has been told that she is being watched or the outcome of the trial is been watched very carefully at this point. We will have to wait and see. Using the same line of reasoning an appeal will cost the same big bucks for taxpayers.

116

 Nov 19, 2009 at 07:21 PM tsvika55 Says:

Reply to #80  
Shaul in Monsey Says:

Could any of you blind followers please explain why invoices were cut from AGRI to a clothing store? Or why AGRi had accounts pay the bank accounts that belonged to the yeshiva and grocery? Or why they took prepayments for orders and did not ship them? These facts are undisputed and they are the real crimes here. It's so funny to listen to everyone kvetch about ridiculous legal theories they know nothing about but when it comes to these facts you ignore them.

it's great that u can find humor in all this. a man (father of 9) who might have commited some financial fraud is being sent to jail posibly for the rest of his life

117

 Nov 19, 2009 at 09:28 PM Charlie Hall Says:

Reply to #32  
Anonymous Says:

howveer, it was not only hirring illagal but also ACCUSSED paying below minumum wage and shorting hours from pay. and taking money for health care when non existed. Ansd many safty issue that caused serious injuries to workers

And he has not been convicted of any of those things.

118

 Nov 20, 2009 at 07:35 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #10  
Charlie Hall Says:

This is good. The financial fraud charges represented serious violations of Chosen Mishpat and are things no frum Jew should ever even consider doing. But had a non-Jew smuggled Yiddish-speaking illegal immigrants into the US to work in his sweatshop in 1940, we'd now been hailing him as a hero and honoring him in Yad VaShem. Except for dina malchutcha dina, and I'm not even sure that applies here, there shouldn't be any issur in hiring illegal immigrants. Jews have always benefitted from open borders and we should be hospitable to the people fleeing poverty and violence in Mexico and Central America rather than acting like Sodomites.

Professor you have said it succintly and to the point. The emes is anybody who has to do with kashruth should never have to appearin court but there is a world out there which divides laws [U.S. civil code] this for the goyim and inz sorg zich nisht

119

 Nov 20, 2009 at 05:51 AM ....... Says:

Reply to #116  
tsvika55 Says:

it's great that u can find humor in all this. a man (father of 9) who might have commited some financial fraud is being sent to jail posibly for the rest of his life

It was because of greed that Rubashkin got to this point. You seem to conveniently forget that there were many people put out of business because the Rubashkins wanted to take over the market place. Empire poultry almost went broke.

Do you realy want the poultry market controlled by a guy that 'is a rabbi, not a businessman who cannot read contracts'? A family that throws the Choshen Mishpat out of the window while claiming to observe the Yoreh Deah?

Puhleze - have another sip of Koolaid.

120

 Nov 20, 2009 at 09:25 AM anonymous Says:

Reply to #119  
....... Says:

It was because of greed that Rubashkin got to this point. You seem to conveniently forget that there were many people put out of business because the Rubashkins wanted to take over the market place. Empire poultry almost went broke.

Do you realy want the poultry market controlled by a guy that 'is a rabbi, not a businessman who cannot read contracts'? A family that throws the Choshen Mishpat out of the window while claiming to observe the Yoreh Deah?

Puhleze - have another sip of Koolaid.

you are right first were beheimos and then he spread out to chickens and apparenly intended to grab the entire meat market, yes it was pure greed

121

 Nov 20, 2009 at 09:01 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #119  
....... Says:

It was because of greed that Rubashkin got to this point. You seem to conveniently forget that there were many people put out of business because the Rubashkins wanted to take over the market place. Empire poultry almost went broke.

Do you realy want the poultry market controlled by a guy that 'is a rabbi, not a businessman who cannot read contracts'? A family that throws the Choshen Mishpat out of the window while claiming to observe the Yoreh Deah?

Puhleze - have another sip of Koolaid.

you don't sound like a person that keeps orach chaim,

122

 Nov 20, 2009 at 09:00 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #118  
Anonymous Says:

Professor you have said it succintly and to the point. The emes is anybody who has to do with kashruth should never have to appearin court but there is a world out there which divides laws [U.S. civil code] this for the goyim and inz sorg zich nisht

Well that brings us back to the big ICE screw up. Had they not been so over-zealous, SMR would probably have never seen the inside of a court room. The owners of the goyish slaughterhouses didn't.

123

 Nov 20, 2009 at 09:36 AM anonymous Says:

Reply to #119  
....... Says:

It was because of greed that Rubashkin got to this point. You seem to conveniently forget that there were many people put out of business because the Rubashkins wanted to take over the market place. Empire poultry almost went broke.

Do you realy want the poultry market controlled by a guy that 'is a rabbi, not a businessman who cannot read contracts'? A family that throws the Choshen Mishpat out of the window while claiming to observe the Yoreh Deah?

Puhleze - have another sip of Koolaid.

What I find so much baloney is the argument that if Rubaskin fails Yidden would lose their parnossa. If Empire had failed who would have lost there the parnossa. It seems that those Yidden who worked for Rubashkin should not lose their parnossa but the Yidden [shochtim, mashgichim] working for Empire can lose their parnossa. A perverted logic

124

 Nov 20, 2009 at 09:33 AM Justice Seeker Says:

1) The court did not dismiss the immigration charges against SMR. They were withdrawn by the prosecution - for now. This was allowed by the court.
2) No one should have to spend the rest of their life in jail. But Reb Rubashkin did terrible things that hurt many, many people, Jews and non-Jews. Many have suffered because of him, and many more including his wife and children will continue to suffer. Life is not a game of Monopoly. It is for real. You do not pass Go and collect $200.if you lie and cheat. You go to jail and a throw of the dice will not get you out.

125

 Nov 20, 2009 at 08:58 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #119  
....... Says:

It was because of greed that Rubashkin got to this point. You seem to conveniently forget that there were many people put out of business because the Rubashkins wanted to take over the market place. Empire poultry almost went broke.

Do you realy want the poultry market controlled by a guy that 'is a rabbi, not a businessman who cannot read contracts'? A family that throws the Choshen Mishpat out of the window while claiming to observe the Yoreh Deah?

Puhleze - have another sip of Koolaid.

Get real, please, empire almost went bankrupt because of competition? In your business there is no competition? Empire is fine and there were and still are other producers in competition with Empire. Rubashkin chickens were not the only competitors of Empire, Vineland chicken has been in business since I was a little kid, I remember Vineland chicken being delivered to my door by Mr. Schwartz in his White Truck. So one second wouldn't that mean that Vineland was in business before Empire?????????????? And then Empire opened in competition against Vineland? Huh? How dare they?

Woa, I also had the choice of buying KAJ chicken at my grocery. So stop with this hatred already. I heard very not nice stories about Empire from very reliable sources but I refuse to repeat them and spread Loshan Horah. In addition I happened to have a huge business transaction with the owner of a division of Empire called " Empire Simcha products" and was very shocked to find out he wasn't shomer shabbos, this goes back 15 years. According to R' Y Reisman who wouldn't allow the use of his products on this basis alone. Are you sure that it wasn't these type of issues that caused Empire problems?

126

 Nov 20, 2009 at 02:34 AM Rif Says:

Reply to #110  
Anonymous Says:

Please watch what you say.

The sentencing will now proceed as soon as possible. People on VIN are saying vile things about the judge. On the Internet, everyone can have an alert set up on Google when anyone says something about their name.

For heaven's sake.

Stop calling the judge names!

Stop saying the judge is an anti-semite.

Pirkei Avot warns about this.

To all the SMR supporters, do you think you are helping him by saying terrible things about the judge.

In her mind she'll say, "Now I'll show them."

Just don't do it.

Now is the time to write letters asking for mercy from the judge.

The fight is OVER. SMR lost. He is likely to lose the appeal.

Put away midas hadin and take out midas harachamim.

You have a point that buttering up the judge is better than hammering on her, but let's take this a step further, how about asking for mercy from The Judge of Judges, Hakadosh Baruch Hu. How about showing a united front, both to the world and to Hashem. As you said correctly, it's time to take out midas harachamim, so that Hashem can apply it likewise.
Bemida sheadam moded modedim oiso

127

 Nov 20, 2009 at 01:59 AM matzahlocal101 Says:

Reply to #35  
Shaul in Monsey Says:

You are completely wrong, but only because you are ignorant of the law. Even if he was acquitted on the immigration charges he'd do time for what he was already convicted on. That's number two. Number three, his lawyers wouldn't have a good day in court unless they were disbarred for incompetence.

But number one is that under federal statute, if the same act is captured under multiple charges, you can only be sentenced on the statute that carries the higher penalty. The lesser offense is stayed. What the feds are saying is that even if he was convicted on all the immigration charges, sentencing on those charges would have to be stayed because he can't do time twice for a single act even if multiple statutes are violated. And they are reserving their right to reinstate the charges as well.

In short, the government is being prudent in their prosecution, even though this really screws up the whole blood libel thing.

Shaul,
You are definitely not a lawyer. Try to follow this:
"if the same act is captured under multiple charges, you can only be sentenced on the statute that carries the higher penalty."
That means that if while driving drunk you kill a man, you are sentenced under the manslaughter law and not the drunk driving even though in this case driving drunk results in multiple charges.
"What the feds are saying is that even if he was convicted on all the immigration charges, sentencing on those charges would have to be stayed because he can't do time twice for a single act even if multiple statutes are violated".
You are stating the act of bank fraud resulted in fraud and immigration charges that can't be served together and you can only serve one immigration sentence even if you hired a thousand illegals.
First of all terms can served concurrently and the state often brings numerous capital crimes resulting in 4 life sentences plus 175 years. The reason the govt does that, is to ensure the man remains in prison even if a sentence is overturned, and prevents the need to try to make a case 30 after the fact, witness have died, it's easier to question their credibility, etc.

128

 Nov 20, 2009 at 01:22 AM Anonymous Says:

After reading the prosecutions application for dismissal of immigration charges, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize that the prosecutors made gross tactical and critical errors in the way they worded their request for leave and dismissal. as if they intended to serve the defense grounds for appeal on a silver platter. The immigration testimony in the financial fraud trial was not a slam dunk, questions linger about that strategy, to write that the jury already convicted smr of harboring illegal aliens hence there is no need for a further trial was suicidal on the states part. These words are gonna raise red flags when scrutinized and may come back to haunt the prosecution.

129

 Nov 19, 2009 at 10:19 PM OMG Says:

Reply to #115  
Anonymous Says:

No this is being done because the prosecutors are being investigated by the US Congress for screwing up the entire investigation and the raid. They are back-peddling. On the other hand there are issues in the documents which might help in the appeal. Such as the agreed upon separation of the two trials and the admittance of the prosecution that in the first group of charges the jury references the immigration issues in the decision to find SMR guilty.

It would seem that these prosecutors were instructed to reign in their overzealousness and aggressiveness. They probably also had quite a dressing down for spending over $4,000,000 rather wasting $4,000,000 on this ridiculous embarrassing raid where many laws were broken and many Americans have reason to be ashamed. I wouldn't be at all surprised at this point if the Judge herself has been given a few instructions or has been told that she is being watched or the outcome of the trial is been watched very carefully at this point. We will have to wait and see. Using the same line of reasoning an appeal will cost the same big bucks for taxpayers.

It is self evidence this you get your information from the Mikvah, or Law and Order TV show, your assessment is so far off, if anyone would participate in what you describe, they all would go to jail for obstruction of justices. You are so far of the mark I cannot even make fun of you, you are a pity.

130

 Nov 20, 2009 at 10:21 AM Shaul in Monsey Says:

Reply to #127  
matzahlocal101 Says:

Shaul,
You are definitely not a lawyer. Try to follow this:
"if the same act is captured under multiple charges, you can only be sentenced on the statute that carries the higher penalty."
That means that if while driving drunk you kill a man, you are sentenced under the manslaughter law and not the drunk driving even though in this case driving drunk results in multiple charges.
"What the feds are saying is that even if he was convicted on all the immigration charges, sentencing on those charges would have to be stayed because he can't do time twice for a single act even if multiple statutes are violated".
You are stating the act of bank fraud resulted in fraud and immigration charges that can't be served together and you can only serve one immigration sentence even if you hired a thousand illegals.
First of all terms can served concurrently and the state often brings numerous capital crimes resulting in 4 life sentences plus 175 years. The reason the govt does that, is to ensure the man remains in prison even if a sentence is overturned, and prevents the need to try to make a case 30 after the fact, witness have died, it's easier to question their credibility, etc.

Clearly you have no knowledge of federal sentencing guidelines if you can compare a federal fraud conviction to state charges. What I am stating is absolutely correct.

131

 Nov 20, 2009 at 10:10 AM OMG Says:

Reply to #108  
Anonymous Says:

Therefore the jury was biased by the testimony allowed in regard to the immigration issue which was supposed to reserved for the separate trial.

Yes I said that issue might be revisited (see post # 66) by the appeal process but even if it gets overturned it will be that single charge not all the other charges, because there is no nexus between this single charge and all the counts SMR was convicted on. It is so simple that a Bar Mitzvah kid should be able to understand this and recite it for his speech.

132

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